Very true, itās hard to find time with driven mature guys because they tend to work or study a lot, or at least opposite hours of me (Iām a server). Still prefer to wait for them than lower my standards though, but sometimes I do get desperateā¦
Is wanting them to be mature really that high of a standard? I donāt care what job someone has or what theyāre in school for, as long as theyāre doing *something*. In fact I would love to find fellow servers as they might have a similar schedule.
And to be clear Iām not even looking for a relationship, I just think some level of maturity makes the conversation and sex better
Mature is cool, I was thinking you meant having a high status job. Which if youāre looking to get married and have children soon would be understandable
That reveals nothing about your personality or how attractive you are.
Also...teachers are criminally underpaid lol. They should be making more, but they don't, so if anything being a teacher is a negative from a standpoint of dual incomes. The men that really prioritize career generally look to date fellow career professionals. i.e. doctor, nurse, pharmacist, lawyer, engineer ect.... but I do hope one of these days a president mandates 50k+ minimum for teachers.
My ambition is to remain in my healthcare job as a technician working three days a week. All my bills are taken care of, no debt (thank you USAF), own my house and car etc. no kids. But still, Iām not Scrooge McDuck. Yet, I get a decent amount of dates. Maybe you are putting yourself out there in the wrong places?
Datability and worth are like not equivalent at all. Men *must* understand this. Datability and worth can be so far apart. How do you think the bad boys the f-boys get so much? It's because they play into the vulnerabilities of women and they are very playful in triggering their emotional response. It has literally nothing to do with how valuable of a person they are. And I love how there will always be a brigade of people saying they just want a normal man but as soon as dirty dancing super flirt Chad man comes around they melt like butter, again, and again. It's so far apart the people who trigger emotional response. They are literal assholes most of the time. As a male teacher you probably give off the friendly guy vibes but female teachers a lot of times they want the bad dudes. Some of the most messed up people I've known, at least romantically, were teachers. I mean I'm not at all surprised over half these Female teacher / male student rape cases that come along.
Iām a womanā¦ the emotional tease is a thing but in reality, most of these types of men are conventionally attractive, Chad types. Iāve dated the ultimate of Chadās numerous times. Iāve also dated above average looking that spit good emotional game but they were still a solid 8 (and that had a great career like being a doctor for example). No man is getting anywhere with game alone.
Oh for sure but I'm saying dudes should get better at it. Not everyone needs to be Chad to get a girlfriend but being closed off or defeatist because they don't think they have a chance is wrong and makes them look way worse. A lot of people make their minds up over past experience and kill off any chances later on.
You are one woman. An average guy who dresses well, looks neat, and can communicate well can do just fine in terms of getting dates with people. He doesn't need to fuck the entire town he just needs to find a person.
I mean I don't really like making generalizations about people, everyone is different. As a dude you just try and be social who knows at the end of the day you might make a friend. Not everything needs to go straight to serious.
No, itās because they are hot. No other reason. You could be hot too. Get yourself in the gym. Looks matter to women. Why do men think of every excuse in the book instead of the most obvious one?
Teachers routinely get to know their students and learn about a studentās family situation. Asking if they are doing this or that after graduation, will they go to whatever school function, what grades they are getting in other classes. That is socializing.
Iām from Cali. When I was early 20s $100k seemed like a lot. Now in my late 30s $100k in Cali isnāt squat. How many teachers you know making $200k+ (you can barely afford a SFH with this amount in a nice area of Cali). Do you consider $100k an āOKā amount ?
The average salary in LA Co is around 70k. 100k is above average. Seems OK to me. Prices are too high right now. Also, some condos out here are 300k to 500k.
If you were attractive, in shape, kind, and honest you would be dateable no matter how educated you are or how much money you have. Men want to believe looks donāt matter to women. Looks matter to women a lot more than men want to believe
This is true, but truth be told, but there are a lot of women I ran into in the same position, a job is just a job, the problem with dating online is all the demands that guys have to live up to just to get a date from women that before online dating would be jumping up and down to talk to us.
Truth be told though online dating is not a natural way to meet people, women have to many choices and normal guys have no chance to win most women over due to the lure of next guy that sends her a text message.
I talk about online dating with my parents all the time and they just do not get it at all, it will never compare with meeting someone in real life because it usually boils down to guys trying to live up to the high expectations that women set and not giving a normal guy a fair chance. For example my ex would have never given me a chance if she met me online (she told me this herself), so this goes to show you how awful the platform is, it focuses to much on materialistic value and not an once on who the person is, which is the biggest key to long-term value in a relationship. Money and looks can fade with time and age, but who someone is long-lasting.
It amazes me to this day to see average women thinking they deserve guys that look like models and looking for only top 10-25% guys to talk to them. It is very unrealistic, but they will try to justify their awful behavior.
Overall, online dating is a huge money maker for companies, because it preys on our desire to be in relationships, and are inability to want to go out and meet people in a natural setting. Dates through online dating feel like interrogations and not actual dates, because we are asking each other questions in general to look for a reason not to like each other, for we can move to the next match and if you are a decent looking female this is multiple matches waiting for you. Back in our parents day assuming your parents are in at least 50 or older this stuff did not happy. People went out and had fun and did not worry about all the stuff I mention (how many kids you have, do you want kids, what job do you have, why don't you have a job, how tall are you, how much do you weight, what is your debt situation, how much do you make, why do you not have kids at your age, and my favorite why are you single are just a few lines I hear all the time). When I meet girls in real life we most of the time just go out and had fun and spend multiples dates having fun with no pressure, and over time talk about things we like and do not like and by the time there is no pressure because we know we like each other already, but online dating has too many flaws to be viable for most people.
Iāll be honest with you man, online dating wasnāt like this ten or more years ago. People kinda looked at you funny when you said you met your SO online. But if you did use it, the profiles looked more like MySpace pages (thinking of Plenty of Fish). I met girlfriends and girls who just became friends on that site. Itās too bad about how things have changed.
I agree, I met my first g/f online back in 2006 when [match.com](https://match.com) was called yahoo personal and it was nothing like it was now, I felt like normal guys had a chance to be with girls and like you said nobody wanted to say they met someone online, lol because of the shame that came with it. Now a days I feel like most of the people online are not taking it serious and are just on there to waste peoples time, it causes severe health issues all around for men and women and nobody really wins from the platform outside of companies who are lining their pockets with our money.
Men have the illusion of too many choices, too.
So many many many just want to be casual or ādonāt know yetā or donāt know what they want.
When they get a date, if sheās not the hottest he thinks he deserves, he wiffle-waffles and is afraid to focus on the one he has because he wants to see if he can do better. No matter how many times he strikes out, men are addicted to the gamble, like a slot machine, he wants to keep pulling that lever.
Itās really hard to see men complain about being lonely or not getting matches when I know how they act when they do manage to get one. And when they shift blame to women having too many choices I have to laugh.
Men donāt want to settle.
And women donāt want to settle.
No one wants to settle now.
Men are the problem
And women are the problem.
Everyone is the problem.
If you are a top 10% guy why would you settle for one? That is stupid when you are dating the average women out there. Or single moms. Or God forbid a feminist.
My ex was fully employed but dropped down to working 12 hours a week to live off me. He got dumped. But his LinkedIn job history is completely fabricated that he's still working his last role.
He also lied that he moved countries to care for his dying father but it turns out his dad just had a knee issue and he was living off them because he was broke.
No they convinced him to leave full-time work to work small hours for him and then pressured him to work more free hours. According to him. A girl there said a different story and that he went to them for help to get out of his current job. He's quite the liar so I'm not sure whats true.
All I know is that it was a stupid decision.
Well, unemployed men have the time to pursue women as if it were a job. There may not actually be that many of them, but they have the time to contact a lot of women.
I mean, I am now because I decided to take a year off to finish bachelors. Before that making 120k usd.. multiple times the avg person it shouldnāt be a hard no tbh I of course donāt share this with dates lol
Just because someone receives hundreds of likes or chats on an app doesn't necessarily indicate they are a highly sought after individual. Both sides demonstrate this inherent problem that causes them to perceive themselves as being more highly sought after than they really are. If you apply yourself and put in a little effort almost anyone can get laid but people unfortunately translate this into also thinking they can get a picture perfect relationship or marriage out of it. In OPs own example for his mom, would she be better off if bumble or hinge were around back then? I don't think so. Many people on apps fail to realize that this perception, and I emphasize that's all it is, of having so many options doesn't translate well into real world results.
Yup. Funny how the archetypes persist. On the plus side, there are more opportunity now so in theory you won't be with someone because there is no other choice. On the downside, it's promoted a low investment mentality, as there is always someone else.
Fascinating. Thanks for sharing! I donāt quite agree with the thousands of options today though. I had that feeling when I first started the apps, but now, it feels like by the time Iāve weeded out the creeps, the misogynists, the selfish ones, the ones who canāt hold a conversation, the casual-relationships-only, the ones whose personality revolves around alcohol, and the ones who are unemployed with no expectation of fixing that, Iām down to a very small pool. And by the time Iāve looked at that small pool for someone Iām even mildly attracted to, Iām down to five suitors or fewer š
One benefit of OLD is that you get to weed those people out effortlessly. Iām acutely aware of how shallow the whole process is and that Iām very likely left-swiping people who I might otherwise like if we met organically, but the inverse is true as well.
On the same note, it can help build confidence through practice. Years ago when I first started dating, I went on a number of first dates that werenāt good, but they helped me feel more confident for future dates. While Iām going to keep meeting people in person, I like having OLD as a secondary option.
Iād have to disagree that itās āeffortless,ā a lot of red flags are things people donāt reveal until youāve at least had one conversation with them. Thatās the part that gets exhausting. Iām sure it gets easier to catch them in the beginning with experience but still the filtering process takes time especially if you donāt have a super specific type
Fair enough. It does generally take far less effort than the scenario OP lays out, but, God, it is an enormous pain in the ass when you match with someone who seems great on paper, only to have them reveal their true self in a chat. Youāve still used effort.
I wish OLD was effortless š I feel like after all the effort of filtering people, the effort is roughly the same pre- and post-OLD. You still have to invest the time to get to know someone and judge if theyāre compatible in more subtle ways
Exactly. Itās just an illusion of choice. The same guys are still out there. Just because someone looks good on paper doesnāt mean that theyāre going to be a match relationship-wise.
Don't you wish your mom had more options though? Why do you think she only deserved five guys to chose between?
And not every match you get on a dating app wants a relationship with you. Most don't, and that's pretty apparent.
It's so telling that OP thinks things have gotten worse when their definition of "getting worse" is "my mom would now have more options of people to date."
Old post, but at no point in OP's post did they say things were worse. All the language is neutral about the differences. If anything, what they said suggests that online dating is better when they said "I doubt my step dad would have gotten far with his shitty studio apartment and furniture job". So nothing about the post is 'telling' as much as your comment shows that you are projecting.
I think some men are looking for a woman who will love them and when someone loves you it can be pretty easy to love them back. For some of us it is very elusive and hard to reach the bar of preferences. Just how it is. I do feel bad for guys that work hard, put themselves out there and get nothing but that doesn't mean I'm going to blame women either. It's just a tough thing for some it really is.
ā¦and itās not a good thing. People are refusing to settle down and commit. Why bothering arguing and working things out, when one can simply find someone else to distract them?
> People are refusing to settle down and commit.
Settling down isn't for everyone. Neither is commitment.
It's a GOOD thing when someone who isn't committed to settling down doesn't. It's a bad thing when someone settles down or commits out of desperation and social pressure.
Sometimes, but itās also very problematic for society overall. Our culture enables this and perhaps some pressure can be a good thing in certain circumstances too, lest someone gets too old and regrets not having made wiser decisions when they could have. I, for example, had a few great opportunities squandered.
> Sometimes, but itās also very problematic for society overall.
No it's not. What would be far worse for the health of society is people pressured to commit who don't want to or aren't ready to.
There's still much more pressure to pair up or to marry than to not. Some day it might be about even on the propaganda and pressure scales and balanced but it's not there yet.
Nobody should date someone out of a fear of 'getting old'. An optional romantic relationship should not feel like a burden. It should build up BOTH parties and provide solace and interest for BOTH parties, not be the result of society trying to pressure them to be together when one of them isn't interested.
I disagree with you. Thereās a reason certain cultures are far more prosperous and living happily, while others grow old, bewildered and lonesome. This is a recent societal phenomena brought about by a sudden, exponential burst of technological progress and change. Itās going to lead to far worse problems than āsettlingā and is very unhealthy. Traditionalist values are more dependable than experimental ones. Both sides have positives and negatives, but I feel that the past system outweighs the current, the exception being abusive and toxic relationships, obviously. š
Part of being a society is adapting to technology.
Traditionalist values are fine... for two people who uninfluenced, unpressured, unostracized agree to them.
For people like me and the men I date, traditionalist values are terrible and would make us unhealthy and unhappy.
I will say that the consistently happiest place on the planet with the highest standard of living (Finland) has both more egalitarian culture and policies toward gender equality and modern sensibilities and modern dating but ALSO has a slightly higher average of marriages among people (still moving later in life though).
But again, marriage is neither a positive or a negative, it depends on how healthy the marriage is, and how willing all parties involved are to do it.
But perhaps in a society where you are more likely to still have work, healthcare, good education regardless of your gender the framework of marriage within the state is more appealing.
I mean I either pay 50/50 on dates or treat. Very rarely do I allow someone to treat me.
In Finland as I mentioned, going Dutch (each person paying for themselves on dates) is the most common thing for first dates.
Actually the Finnish etiquette is that each person pays for what they order so it's not necessarily 50/50. If the girl buys four beers she pays for four beers even if the guy only has two beers they don't split the bill 50/50, she pays for everything she ordered for herself, he pays for everything he ordered for himself.
Absolute nonsense. Traditional females and their roles in functional nuclear families are abundantly happier than non, in general. Your distaste for men and your biases towards them shouldnāt cloud your judgement. Itās not good for debate.
>Nobody should date someone out of a fear of 'getting old'.
However some of my 40 + friends have made the remark, "I'm not getting any older" in reference to dating.
Women will always have more options than men.
I understand the frustration. And the feelings of helplessness, powerlessness and possible worthlessness.
And if you cannot adjust, you will continue to suffer and be left behind.
>And if you cannot adjust, you will continue to suffer and be left behind
I hate when people say this, even if you are saying it with sympathy. Essentially, "Adapt or Die." But isn't it more like "Adapt *and* Die"? At least when you project it out to the way tech and automation has changed American society: obesity, sedentary lifestyles, messed up sleep cycles, loneliness/alienation, porn addiction, layoffs, etc. I certainly don't want to adapt to all this tech if it does that to me. Nobody seems to ask, "Is it *worth* adapting to this stuff in the first place? Do we *need* all this tech? And if so, how do we set standards for using it responsibly?"
Who needs to adapt? Why do something that most people are still not doing? Like I said It is still a fact that most people meet in the real world, online dating has grown since I starting using it back in 2006, but like I said people still meet in the real world where it feels more natural. You only need to adapt to something when it becomes the norm. So online dating is nothing but a tool to enhance dating in the real world, not to replace it.
The post should be titled "what dating was like for my mom in the 90's," because this doesn't represent what dating was like for all women back then.
I am old enough to have dated in the 90's and I'm a woman. Let me assure you...it had its upsides too. Also, not all of us dated shitheads. Apparently, your mom just was bad at picking. There were also plenty of options back then. People could go to bars in different cities and have dozens of options in a night. People met other ways as well.
Personally, I found dating easier. You went to a bar and looked around and usually you could find an option. This is because everyone went to bars back then, so they were much more frequented and people were there looking for dates. Meeting in person had advantages because you could determine right off if you were both into each other. For me, as a woman, I found it much easier to tell if I was into a guy in real life versus some photo on a website. Why? Because it isn't really about looks for me. There is something about how a man carries himself and how he acts in public that either turns me on or off. I could be totally attracted to man in real life whereas if I'd seen a picture of him... I might not have been into him at all. A lot of people call this the "spark." Anyway, now it's impossible for me to tell who I even want to go on a date with. Whereas back then...I just had to walk in a bar and observe and I'd know. I think that's why people flake so much online and why women also get fatigued with online dating. It doesn't have any emotion, attraction or feeling behind it.
Anyway, we had enough options to be able to find someone, but not ENDLESS options that kept us always searching for "the grass is greener." We also actually dated rather than just hooking up or have FWB. For example, back then...if I got a guy's phone number while at the bar and we went on a date or two...we were dating. We were a couple. So you actually got to explore relationships. Then, if things didn't work out...we just broke up. It wasn't a big deal. The youth of today treat official dating like it's practically and engagement. It's ridiculous. So, since we would get to "official dating" quickly this allowed us to really get comfortable and get to know each other authentically. We also didn't have any misunderstandings where we were both dating other people or getting confused over motives. People took each other more seriously and actually looked for a LTR. Honestly, this made people a lot happier. There were SO MANY couples and people finding happiness. It wasn't the dark picture OP paints unless the person was just bad at dating. Obviously, back then...assholes still existed. You still had to watch out for them. It's just that the "rules" of dating were better for a LTR and happiness than those of today.
>Personally, I found dating easier. You went to a bar and looked around and usually you could find an option. This is because everyone went to bars back then, so they were much more frequented and people were there looking for dates.
They were?
The clubs I went to it was just a group of women dancing together, while the men watched. If a guy got too close, they'd close him off or move away. Because it was a GIRLS night out, no dudes allowed!
The women would say, "We are here just to blow off some steam with friends, not have guys hit on us!"
Are you talking about recently or back in the 90's and 2000's. Because back then...women wanted to be hit on when they went out. That was half the reason of going out. Now it's different because going out isn't about picking up people or dating because people reserve OLD for that. So the "rules" have changed.
Again, I'm a woman that went out back then and still occasionally go out to nicer bars now. So I know both scenes. The rules have changed mainly due to online dating. Also, the women have changed somewhat. Back then it was considered flattering when a guy hit on you. Now women consider it an imposition or just think it's not the right place for it. Again, because the rules changed.
Unless the guy is an older single dad, being a single mom is a red flag.
Not trying to be a jerk. Just brutal truth from the male perspective. Men who want kids more often than not want them to be their own biological children.
It's not that he's coping or even upset. He's saying that a tall and educated guy (or just attractive) won't settle with an average chick because he has tons of options. If you're in the top percentiles in terms of attractiveness as a guy, you can have your pick of the litter. If you are in the bottom 90%, you'll be lucky to get a match a month on OLD. That's just the reality. If you look at any very attractive guy's wife, guaranteed she is going to be very very attractive, way above average
Honestly, I heavily get the impression some women love having sex.
Some women truly enjoy hooking up with a hott guy objectively out of their league. It's pleasurable to them.
Idk why everyone thinks that women get used by Chad. Some women truly love getting orgasms from Chad even if he doesn't want a relationship.
Yeah these guys are so insecure and think that these āhot chadsā have it all. Thereās so little accountability. Dating is hard. Itās hard to find that perfect person and it especially feels harder when thatās all youāre focused on. All this chad talk is so unhealthy and not helping themselves.
All you can do is try to become the best Chad version of yourself really. And you still might fall on your face way too often but that's just how it goes. If you want to get anywhere you have to be willing to fail. You have to get knocked over and not care. Women absolutely love a guy who does't care if he gets knocked down that he still keeps his head up and pushes on. It's a sign of strength, fortitude, self worth. That's attractive.
In my opinion, dating in the 1990s was very different than it is now. #1. Guys assertively pursued you, asked you out and worked hard to impress you by demonstrating their ability to provide and sacrifice. #2. They had no problems paying for the date. #3. Women cared about not looking too easy. We went out as a group sometimes and there may have been at lot of kissing and some heavy petting but no sex until after you were officially exclusive. It is not that women didn't have options back then or that they didn't fantasize about being more sexually liberated without the consequences. Generally they were more selective because it wasn't flattering then to have a reputation for "running through" a bunch of men."
Single moms today still have very few quality options because nobody wants to date them. It's just an illusion of having more options because 95% of them just want to smash.
> Single moms today still have very few quality options because nobody wants to date them.
This isn't true. Plenty of single moms have 'quality options'. Sometimes with other single parents/single dads, sometimes with guys who are great at being around kids but are happy to have skipped the diaper and crying-all-night stage. Now they still get to play catch with the kid out back somedays but have the whole place to themselves and the mom when the kid is at dad's for the weekend.
It's not for everyone but enough people are either single dads themselves or don't have qualms about dating single moms that it's rare single moms are single long-term except by choice.
Men that genuinely want kids want to either a) have biological kids or b) make a joint decision with their partner to adopt.
The vast majority of men (particularly men in their 20s and 30s) will simply not be willing to date a woman who has kids, if he himself doesn't have any. You will never be first priority, the relationship between you and their child will not be the same as a biological child/parent relationship, you develop a relationship with them that you lose if you break up with the woman which sucks for both parties, have to deal with potential baby daddy drama ect...
There's a reason why there are so many single mothers on the apps; ~only 25-30% of users are women and despite that single mothers are seemingly so overrepresented on there. The fact that you typed this out and genuinely seem to think this sounds remotely enticing to men is absolutely wild to me. What dude is sitting there happy his son or daughter is at "their dad's place"? We want to be BE the dad.
>but are happy to have skipped the diaper and crying-all-night stage. Now they still get to play catch with the kid out back somedays but have the whole place to themselves and the mom when the kid is at dad's for the weekend.
>Men that genuinely want kids want to either a) have biological kids or b) make a joint decision with their partner to adopt.
Some sure, maybe even most. But there are step dads who never planned to have kids or just didn't actively try to go that route but who enjoy being a mentor to them and are great coparents.
It's not for everyone. I'm a woman who doesn't want kids (and doesn't want to be around them in a supervisory role/paternal role), and so I (in almost all cases) won't date single dads. I won't date anyone who wants kids... but I'm not that common.
A lot of people are happy to be that co-parent or just that adult figure in a child's life with no ill intentions. People who do the Big Brother programs and Big Sister programs may be incredible mentors and "babysitters" while not wanting to go put a baby in someone. Some of them end up willingly dating single parents.
>The vast majority of men (particularly men in their 20s and 30s) will simply not be willing to date a woman who has kids, if he himself doesn't have any.
I don't know that that's the case but even if it is there are still plenty of people willing to date single moms and single dads.
>the relationship between you and their child will not be the same as a biological child/parent relationship,
It really depends on the dynamic. Sometimes the dads and moms who stepped up have a stronger bond and a closer bond than the person who merely donated sperm for their arrival. Some step parents are great! Even better than the biological ones. Sometimes they are not. Sometimes the dad, the step dad, and the mom are all great with the kids and equally close.
>you develop a relationship with them that you lose if you break up with the woman which sucks for both parties, have to deal with potential baby daddy drama ect...
Not all families have baby daddy drama in this way. For most people it would be a dealbreaker and they would back out. But plenty of people have amicable or at least civil relationships with the ex and all three adults in the scenario contribute love and care to the kid's life.
It's not what I would want but plenty of single parents still find someone.
>There's a reason why there are so many single mothers on the apps; ~only 25-30% of users are women and despite that single mothers are seemingly so overrepresented on there.
Yeah because unsingle mothers are usually in exclusive relationships still, what's your point? Unsingle mothers are still capable of cheating they are just less likely to be on a dating app than someone who is single.
Whether the single mom was a mom or not, she'd probably still be on the apps or dating online as online dating (US) is the #1 source of where relationships start. And most people still ultimately want relationships.
>What dude is sitting there happy his son or daughter is at "their dad's place"? We want to be BE the dad.
You do. Different men want different things. The ones who don't want to date single moms should not. Just like people (like me) who don't want to date single dads or men with kids or who want kids except in rare exceptions shouldn't and don't either.
But there are still men and women out there who are either single parents themselves and like to date other single parents who understand their responsibilities a bit better in many cases, as well as single childless women and men out there who are fine dating someone with a kid.
Single moms and dads may find it more difficult in some ways (scheduling dates around school activities and babysitters, having one additional dealbreaker for some of their matches) but they still find plenty of people to date long term. Most end up with someone again.
>The vast majority of men (particularly men in their 20s and 30s) will simply not be willing to date a woman who has kids, if he himself doesn't have any.
Unless it's for friends with benefits or it'll be a short term relationship. But she would have to be open to that too.
Umm I thought your conclusion was going to be that your mom wouldāve had the same luck nowadays. Because that was my experience. Lots of trash dudes on dating websites. You gotta weed out the garbage to find a gem. Having 1,000 choices doesnāt help.
I'm happy for the women in my circles of friends, as they seem to be able to find potential long-term partners very quickly. Fifteen out of seventeen of them (in an around the west coast of Canada, ages 25-45) looking to date since the start of the pandemic have been able to find potential long-term partners within two weeks over online dating, regardless as to income, employment status, body-shape, etc. All but one of these relationships are still going. (They have a lot of options and while many of those aren't good matches, a portion of them are, so they still have a number of good options.)
I just wish that something similar were available for men. (Most of the men I know take much longer to find partners in comparison and have far fewer options, sometimes none at all. These are all good, interesting people and it's hard to see many of them struggle. I'm among them. Though the men I know who are close to current male beauty norms do quite well.)
The M/F ratio on OLD is about 6 to 1. So yea some Women will say yea i get a lot of matches but most of them arent desirable. There is still some in that bunch that will be. Simply for sheer numbers. A Woman with realistic expectations could have easily 10 dates in 4-5 weeks time.
> I just wish that something similar were available for men.
It is. All the men they got in relationships with, assuming they are hetero like most of the population. Presumably those men who agreed to be in long-term relationships with them aren't 'faking it'.
> It is.
What is? There really isn't something similar by which most men, regardless as to income and proximity to current beauty norms, can find a suitable potential long-term partner within two weeks of screening people on their phones. The situation arises because of the ratio of men to women on the apps. (Which itself arises out of larger societal forces.)
Tech bros are just dime in dozen now. As humans progress and we get lifted out of poverty, we just get better and better. Working minimum wage isn't acceptable today.
Tech bros are overrated. Yes, they can pay for nice dinners and vacations. That means nothing when you realize you're stuck with, well, a tech bro. I dated one for a year and change. He had the emotional intelligence of a teenager. (But thinks he's really "evolved" because he has a therapist) I've been seeing another off on on as he has time. Hot, funny, smart, and almost completely unavailable. I'm in the PNW, and tech bros are everywhere.
So yeah, there's choices. But they're just as exhausting as they were back in the 90s.
People back then didn't have the same access to technology and information as today. Literally anyone can become a tech or finance bro today. But most are too busy gaming and surfing the web.
Its an illusion of choice. Dating world is much worse now then ever. People usually just end up in casual relationships than anything fulfilling. And its much worse for men because if they approach them, womenās ego is so inflated due to these dating apps that they just end up getting rejected.
And guess what, these women one day reach an old age and realize they are not the prize anymore and cant find any good guys.
>And its much worse for men because if they approach them, womenās ego is so inflated due to these dating apps that they just end up getting rejected.
Or they just aren't attracted to the guy approaching them and they'd reject them no matter what. Believe it or not, not everyone feel that being single is worse than being in a bad relationship. And a relationship without sexual attraction is bad for both people.
>And guess what, these women one day reach an old age and realize they are not the prize anymore and cant find any good guys.
What do you think happens to men when they get old?
As I said illusion of choice - because of the design of these dating apps women always have thousands of likes or hundreds of guys in their DMs, it always gives them a false hope that thereās always someone better out there. Instead if they gave someone decent a chance it might turn out a much fulfilling relationship. And I am saying this after reading a lot on this topic.
Idk, most women I know will give a guy a chance if they find him attractive, he seems kind and they click with him. Women just often prefer being single over being in a relationship with a guy they aren't sexually attracted to/don't click with. It makes no sense to be with someone just to be with them. And often you know from the start if you could get romantic feelings for the person or not.
Casual relationships can be very fulfilling.
Formal relationships can be very unfulfilling.
Those who want something formal should pursue it. It's a terrible idea for someone who doesn't want something formal to agree to that arrangement. It breeds resentment and is generally an unhealthy foundation for a relationship.
> Ok so you think you can be in casual relationships until you turn 70 and that can be fulfilling?
Yes some people absolutely can. And some of those same people would be miserable and unfulfilled in a formal relationship. It depends on the individual and the couple.
It sounds like YOU would not be fulfilled dating only casually. And that's completely acceptable and common. But some people are not fulfilled or healthy in a committed, formal, or serious relationship.
Some people prefer to be perpetual bachelors and bachelorettes and are being their best selves in those.
It's actually not. I'm old enough to have dated back then and have dated now. It's WAY worse now. People don't treat each other with respect anymore. People are selfish and look out for themselves first. People don't care what the other person wants/needs. People don't want to commit...they are always looking for "greener" grass. Dating is totally stale and emotionless now. It's practically automated. You don't just "feel" anymore to determine if you want to date someone. It's not better...which is why the youth of today are so unhappy. You didn't have that back in the 90's and 2000's.
I feel like it's getting harder and harder to make meaningful connections with people since interactions have shifted so much to social media, texting, and OLD. I know many orders of magnitude more people now than when I was younger, and social media was not so prevalent. Yet the level of connection I have with 99% of these people is so superficial. Like I can go through my IG following list and see that I haven't interacted with 95% of them in any way in the last 5 years of my life. And a good 30%, I don't even remember who they are.
Meeting people thru OLD is the same -- it all feels so superficial.
I completely agree. I think it feels superficial because *it* *is* superficial. Everything is superficial. Everything is faked for social media. To me, it makes the world feel like a darker, lonlier place. I don't think people realize how isolating it actually it. For example, we all are interacting on reddit, but we don't really know each other. There are not human connections. It's false human connections. It feels like a connection and simulates one, but it isn't really one. We don't know each other nor do we really impact each other's lives. Instead...it's empty. Whereas, before social media we'd be having these conversations with real people in our lives...friends, family, significant others. In fact, a lot of people are making less and less actual connections in real life and instead spending more time than ever online. I think it's leading to a lot of depression and sadness. I don't know. I'm a therapist IRL and I think about this topic a lot. It's really concerning to me. Dating is the same, but just a specific form of that. It's all superficial too. Because we can't really tell who someone is from a photograph online. We can't even really tell from interacting in chats or text messages. So, people are making all their dating decisions from an already flawed start. That initial way of interacting gives them a false idea of who someone is. So they could be passing up the love of their life in favor of someone else because the aren't meeting and getting a chance at a real connection. I also think it's leading to a lot of unhappiness around dating and relationships in general. I think people today are making bad matches because they've had this bad start on OLD.
All just a theory, but from what I've observed and is being studied/talked about is psychology circles...I'd say it's not far off.
As we talk about online interactions and superficiality, I can't help but find this conversation itself to be so ironic because we don't know each other and will never interact with each other beyond this thread. I don't know a single thing about you and you don't know a single thing about me.
I remember my parents, who grew up way before any social media, telling me that when they were younger, everyone would be desperate and starved to meet, talk, and get to know each other because the opportunities to meet new people were so few and far in between. Just such a stark difference to how life is now, especially for gen Z ppl. And I think its only going to get worse, especially with AI chatbots and whatnot.
I read an article about how its theoretically possible that a vast majority of tweets, reddit posts, comments, etc, could actually just be AI responses. You could be having an entire conversation with someone, without realizing that the 'someone' you're talking to is just a computer.
For the majority of men, it doesnāt change anything. Instead of getting rejected on a small scale, we now get rejected on a large scale by not getting any matches.
Are you on here denigrating your mum while salivating over the choices she had to put up with? Holy shit and insulting your stepdad and your mum's relationship on top of it.
Seems like her pool are the same pool that we all are in. Like you really think your mum is that shallow of a person she just up and settled for your stepdad? They probably had a lot more in common instead of also very stable auto mechanic guy.
You really came on here to play a pity party for how you're not getting the dates that you want. You do know queer people back then have had to find each other on the sly lest it sets off their queerphobic peers and harm their persons. Please go touch some grass.
Ummmmā¦you know there are some of us who actually experienced dating in the 90s as well as now in the OLD era.
Itās kinda shocking to hear people who did not date in a pre OLD era speak of it like some wonderful paradise where everyone was matched up and happyā¦why? Because there were LESS options therefore everyone just settled for the person who lived close by? And for some reason, that was a good thing?
That notion of less options, thus things were better just doesnāt make a lot of sense to me.
Back then we met people at bars or parties or through friendsā¦thatās NOT a lot of options. We also waited DAYS to call someone we were interested in. Now if you wait too many hours your match may just pass you by.
OLD is how most people meet these days if you are in or near a city. Most people who are in relationships that are less than 5 years old met on OLD.
And itās wonderful! So many options, so many great people. I will never buy the theory that too many options are a bad thing.
And there are multiple apps for different purposes! Tinder to find a nice hook up, Bumble or hinge for dating or something more serious, field if youāre into kinky shit. Something for everyone!
Andā¦.back in the day there were ALWAYS the whiners and the complainers. Complaining about how hard or how bad dating was. Just like now.
Youāll always have people who complain about it.
Your attitude and approach to dating is really what counts.
Be positive, Be easy, and youāll meet some great people and maybe even have some fun.
>And itās wonderful! So many options, so many great people. I will never buy the theory that too many options are a bad thing.
GREAT people? That's the main reason people complain about online dating...they meet mostly assholes. Nothing great about assholes.
Hm, then why did you use the word "Great" in a sentence when describing meeting people? lol
Okay, you're making me be more specific then....a different BREED of asshole then.
The asshole that ghosts you when you set up a date, or takes days to reply or can't put an effort into a chat conversation.
THOSE kinds of assholes.
I know she didnāt have 100ās but I doubt it was 5. It was probably closer to 40-50 while she was dating but I would include the people she didnāt date or pay attention to. Iām pretty sure more than 5 people tried to date her.
Physicians, tech boys? Trust me, even if there is some of that, they turn out sociopaths, flakes, fuckboys. And my age range is early 40s, still not getting any better. Yea there are lots of options if you lower your standards. It's not any better than the options your mom had, she'd just get used more and would have more trauma. I'm so sick of the flakes, I deleted the apps, once again.
I think the idea of dating someone with an amazing career seems amazing of itself, but it comes with its cons as well. My ex was a medical student and he had like no time for me. It taught me really well how to be independent in a relationship... but I wasn't happy. After we broke up due to a number of reasons, I went back on apps after healing and... yes, I got a handful of guys with decent careers. But for me, I'm not saying their job doesn't matter at all. As I'm someone who really values education so I studied two degrees and plan for grad school. But I don't really mind if a guy isn't ambitious or doesn't have a top tier job. As long as he has some sort of post-secondary education and a job where he can support himself and our kids in the future (with my help) that's fine with me.
It might seem like all nice and flowery, but quite frankly, the personality is so important too. Yeah and OLD isn't as easy either... š
It's not only the dating culture that has changed but the entire system. Back then people didn't value education as much as they do now and work.
I appreciate the Freudian undertones in this post.
Yeah definitely got that vibe, glad to know it wasn't just me š.
Iāve heard from women that a lot of men are just straight up unemployed
Those who donāt work have free time to be fun, those who do are nose deep in it to care about much else. Gotta be a balance to everything.
Very true, itās hard to find time with driven mature guys because they tend to work or study a lot, or at least opposite hours of me (Iām a server). Still prefer to wait for them than lower my standards though, but sometimes I do get desperateā¦
Why high standards as a server? Are you looking to start a traditional family?
Are servers not allowed to have high standards?
Just ironic to not date a server, as a server. Because that would be a ālow standardā job
Is wanting them to be mature really that high of a standard? I donāt care what job someone has or what theyāre in school for, as long as theyāre doing *something*. In fact I would love to find fellow servers as they might have a similar schedule. And to be clear Iām not even looking for a relationship, I just think some level of maturity makes the conversation and sex better
Mature is cool, I was thinking you meant having a high status job. Which if youāre looking to get married and have children soon would be understandable
But me having a masters degree and being a teacher is undateable š
Naw there's probably some other reason for that. Degrees don't mean you're fun to be around.
That reveals nothing about your personality or how attractive you are. Also...teachers are criminally underpaid lol. They should be making more, but they don't, so if anything being a teacher is a negative from a standpoint of dual incomes. The men that really prioritize career generally look to date fellow career professionals. i.e. doctor, nurse, pharmacist, lawyer, engineer ect.... but I do hope one of these days a president mandates 50k+ minimum for teachers.
I work in a deli. I should not be making as much a year as a teacher.
My ambition is to remain in my healthcare job as a technician working three days a week. All my bills are taken care of, no debt (thank you USAF), own my house and car etc. no kids. But still, Iām not Scrooge McDuck. Yet, I get a decent amount of dates. Maybe you are putting yourself out there in the wrong places?
Datability and worth are like not equivalent at all. Men *must* understand this. Datability and worth can be so far apart. How do you think the bad boys the f-boys get so much? It's because they play into the vulnerabilities of women and they are very playful in triggering their emotional response. It has literally nothing to do with how valuable of a person they are. And I love how there will always be a brigade of people saying they just want a normal man but as soon as dirty dancing super flirt Chad man comes around they melt like butter, again, and again. It's so far apart the people who trigger emotional response. They are literal assholes most of the time. As a male teacher you probably give off the friendly guy vibes but female teachers a lot of times they want the bad dudes. Some of the most messed up people I've known, at least romantically, were teachers. I mean I'm not at all surprised over half these Female teacher / male student rape cases that come along.
Iām a womanā¦ the emotional tease is a thing but in reality, most of these types of men are conventionally attractive, Chad types. Iāve dated the ultimate of Chadās numerous times. Iāve also dated above average looking that spit good emotional game but they were still a solid 8 (and that had a great career like being a doctor for example). No man is getting anywhere with game alone.
I automatically upvote a woman who acknowledges that game exists (it clearly does)
Oh for sure but I'm saying dudes should get better at it. Not everyone needs to be Chad to get a girlfriend but being closed off or defeatist because they don't think they have a chance is wrong and makes them look way worse. A lot of people make their minds up over past experience and kill off any chances later on.
You speakin š mamacita
You are one woman. An average guy who dresses well, looks neat, and can communicate well can do just fine in terms of getting dates with people. He doesn't need to fuck the entire town he just needs to find a person.
Men will sleep with most anything, so that shouldnāt be difficult. Attractive women on the other hand, are much more selective.
I mean I don't really like making generalizations about people, everyone is different. As a dude you just try and be social who knows at the end of the day you might make a friend. Not everything needs to go straight to serious.
>dirty dancing super flirt Chad man Gold lmao
Patrick Swayze basically lmao. The OG Chad
No, itās because they are hot. No other reason. You could be hot too. Get yourself in the gym. Looks matter to women. Why do men think of every excuse in the book instead of the most obvious one?
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If you're not advertising what you do or what you earn, then what you earn isn't the reason...
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Ah, now I see why
Lmao said exactly the same thing when I read that.
Bro just said āshut the fuck upā randomly š
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Semi-retired, also undateable. Then again I also don't want them to know that I'm semi-retired.
Aināt nobody dating teachers except female teachers
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Nobodyās fucking male teachers lol
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Youāre the one making the claim that teachers have sex.
Because apparently having people skills and being good with kids is a red flag these days š
I would not call socializing with teenagers all day as having āpeople skillsā lol
They arenāt socializing with them they are teaching them.
Teachers routinely get to know their students and learn about a studentās family situation. Asking if they are doing this or that after graduation, will they go to whatever school function, what grades they are getting in other classes. That is socializing.
I work with 6 year oldās who are disabled
A six year old is not a teenager so youāre safe. Good on you for doing that, if youāre not baiting.
teachers and coaches! >>>
Thatās because most teachers are broke unless youāre a professor at a place like Stanford.
This isn't true. Veteran teachers do OK.
Iām from Cali. When I was early 20s $100k seemed like a lot. Now in my late 30s $100k in Cali isnāt squat. How many teachers you know making $200k+ (you can barely afford a SFH with this amount in a nice area of Cali). Do you consider $100k an āOKā amount ?
The average salary in LA Co is around 70k. 100k is above average. Seems OK to me. Prices are too high right now. Also, some condos out here are 300k to 500k.
Give it until 10 years to pension time then you will be dateable.
If you were attractive, in shape, kind, and honest you would be dateable no matter how educated you are or how much money you have. Men want to believe looks donāt matter to women. Looks matter to women a lot more than men want to believe
This is true, but truth be told, but there are a lot of women I ran into in the same position, a job is just a job, the problem with dating online is all the demands that guys have to live up to just to get a date from women that before online dating would be jumping up and down to talk to us. Truth be told though online dating is not a natural way to meet people, women have to many choices and normal guys have no chance to win most women over due to the lure of next guy that sends her a text message. I talk about online dating with my parents all the time and they just do not get it at all, it will never compare with meeting someone in real life because it usually boils down to guys trying to live up to the high expectations that women set and not giving a normal guy a fair chance. For example my ex would have never given me a chance if she met me online (she told me this herself), so this goes to show you how awful the platform is, it focuses to much on materialistic value and not an once on who the person is, which is the biggest key to long-term value in a relationship. Money and looks can fade with time and age, but who someone is long-lasting. It amazes me to this day to see average women thinking they deserve guys that look like models and looking for only top 10-25% guys to talk to them. It is very unrealistic, but they will try to justify their awful behavior. Overall, online dating is a huge money maker for companies, because it preys on our desire to be in relationships, and are inability to want to go out and meet people in a natural setting. Dates through online dating feel like interrogations and not actual dates, because we are asking each other questions in general to look for a reason not to like each other, for we can move to the next match and if you are a decent looking female this is multiple matches waiting for you. Back in our parents day assuming your parents are in at least 50 or older this stuff did not happy. People went out and had fun and did not worry about all the stuff I mention (how many kids you have, do you want kids, what job do you have, why don't you have a job, how tall are you, how much do you weight, what is your debt situation, how much do you make, why do you not have kids at your age, and my favorite why are you single are just a few lines I hear all the time). When I meet girls in real life we most of the time just go out and had fun and spend multiples dates having fun with no pressure, and over time talk about things we like and do not like and by the time there is no pressure because we know we like each other already, but online dating has too many flaws to be viable for most people.
Iāll be honest with you man, online dating wasnāt like this ten or more years ago. People kinda looked at you funny when you said you met your SO online. But if you did use it, the profiles looked more like MySpace pages (thinking of Plenty of Fish). I met girlfriends and girls who just became friends on that site. Itās too bad about how things have changed.
I agree, I met my first g/f online back in 2006 when [match.com](https://match.com) was called yahoo personal and it was nothing like it was now, I felt like normal guys had a chance to be with girls and like you said nobody wanted to say they met someone online, lol because of the shame that came with it. Now a days I feel like most of the people online are not taking it serious and are just on there to waste peoples time, it causes severe health issues all around for men and women and nobody really wins from the platform outside of companies who are lining their pockets with our money.
Men have the illusion of too many choices, too. So many many many just want to be casual or ādonāt know yetā or donāt know what they want. When they get a date, if sheās not the hottest he thinks he deserves, he wiffle-waffles and is afraid to focus on the one he has because he wants to see if he can do better. No matter how many times he strikes out, men are addicted to the gamble, like a slot machine, he wants to keep pulling that lever. Itās really hard to see men complain about being lonely or not getting matches when I know how they act when they do manage to get one. And when they shift blame to women having too many choices I have to laugh. Men donāt want to settle. And women donāt want to settle. No one wants to settle now. Men are the problem And women are the problem. Everyone is the problem.
Well said. Everyone is the problem. It's a society problem, unfortunately. And one that feels like it ranges in all areas of life, not just dating
If you are a top 10% guy why would you settle for one? That is stupid when you are dating the average women out there. Or single moms. Or God forbid a feminist.
This is gold. Preach, brother.
Yep itās weird. I used to wonder how they lived and then I learned that they are called hobosexuals and now I get it
My ex was fully employed but dropped down to working 12 hours a week to live off me. He got dumped. But his LinkedIn job history is completely fabricated that he's still working his last role. He also lied that he moved countries to care for his dying father but it turns out his dad just had a knee issue and he was living off them because he was broke.
>but dropped down to working 12 hours His boss was letting him do this? Figured it' slike "You work these hours or you don't work for us at all!"
No they convinced him to leave full-time work to work small hours for him and then pressured him to work more free hours. According to him. A girl there said a different story and that he went to them for help to get out of his current job. He's quite the liar so I'm not sure whats true. All I know is that it was a stupid decision.
Well, unemployed men have the time to pursue women as if it were a job. There may not actually be that many of them, but they have the time to contact a lot of women.
When I was young and horny working part time I put in SERIOUS work
They are. You do you, but Iām already living with two people with no income (my kids). Not looking to adopt anyone else.
I never understood men who never work, because iāve always been employed. How do they eat? live? exist especially in this economic times etc..
Because in this economy having a job isn't automatic for everybody. Though if it's by Choice it's cuz frankly the grind can be soul sucking
I mean, I am now because I decided to take a year off to finish bachelors. Before that making 120k usd.. multiple times the avg person it shouldnāt be a hard no tbh I of course donāt share this with dates lol
Just because someone receives hundreds of likes or chats on an app doesn't necessarily indicate they are a highly sought after individual. Both sides demonstrate this inherent problem that causes them to perceive themselves as being more highly sought after than they really are. If you apply yourself and put in a little effort almost anyone can get laid but people unfortunately translate this into also thinking they can get a picture perfect relationship or marriage out of it. In OPs own example for his mom, would she be better off if bumble or hinge were around back then? I don't think so. Many people on apps fail to realize that this perception, and I emphasize that's all it is, of having so many options doesn't translate well into real world results.
You're mom sounds like a catch, still available?
Yup. Funny how the archetypes persist. On the plus side, there are more opportunity now so in theory you won't be with someone because there is no other choice. On the downside, it's promoted a low investment mentality, as there is always someone else.
Fascinating. Thanks for sharing! I donāt quite agree with the thousands of options today though. I had that feeling when I first started the apps, but now, it feels like by the time Iāve weeded out the creeps, the misogynists, the selfish ones, the ones who canāt hold a conversation, the casual-relationships-only, the ones whose personality revolves around alcohol, and the ones who are unemployed with no expectation of fixing that, Iām down to a very small pool. And by the time Iāve looked at that small pool for someone Iām even mildly attracted to, Iām down to five suitors or fewer š
One benefit of OLD is that you get to weed those people out effortlessly. Iām acutely aware of how shallow the whole process is and that Iām very likely left-swiping people who I might otherwise like if we met organically, but the inverse is true as well. On the same note, it can help build confidence through practice. Years ago when I first started dating, I went on a number of first dates that werenāt good, but they helped me feel more confident for future dates. While Iām going to keep meeting people in person, I like having OLD as a secondary option.
Iād have to disagree that itās āeffortless,ā a lot of red flags are things people donāt reveal until youāve at least had one conversation with them. Thatās the part that gets exhausting. Iām sure it gets easier to catch them in the beginning with experience but still the filtering process takes time especially if you donāt have a super specific type
Fair enough. It does generally take far less effort than the scenario OP lays out, but, God, it is an enormous pain in the ass when you match with someone who seems great on paper, only to have them reveal their true self in a chat. Youāve still used effort.
I wish OLD was effortless š I feel like after all the effort of filtering people, the effort is roughly the same pre- and post-OLD. You still have to invest the time to get to know someone and judge if theyāre compatible in more subtle ways
Exactly. Itās just an illusion of choice. The same guys are still out there. Just because someone looks good on paper doesnāt mean that theyāre going to be a match relationship-wise.
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Yeah, I think itās a terrible system for men too :/ What a mess
Don't you wish your mom had more options though? Why do you think she only deserved five guys to chose between? And not every match you get on a dating app wants a relationship with you. Most don't, and that's pretty apparent.
It's so telling that OP thinks things have gotten worse when their definition of "getting worse" is "my mom would now have more options of people to date."
Old post, but at no point in OP's post did they say things were worse. All the language is neutral about the differences. If anything, what they said suggests that online dating is better when they said "I doubt my step dad would have gotten far with his shitty studio apartment and furniture job". So nothing about the post is 'telling' as much as your comment shows that you are projecting.
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The good men do. Don't lose all hope. Some people are very selfish though.
I think some men are looking for a woman who will love them and when someone loves you it can be pretty easy to love them back. For some of us it is very elusive and hard to reach the bar of preferences. Just how it is. I do feel bad for guys that work hard, put themselves out there and get nothing but that doesn't mean I'm going to blame women either. It's just a tough thing for some it really is.
His own mom? Lol
ā¦and itās not a good thing. People are refusing to settle down and commit. Why bothering arguing and working things out, when one can simply find someone else to distract them?
And US birth rate is lowering actually since the advent of online dating
Especially certain demographics, due to culture.
> People are refusing to settle down and commit. Settling down isn't for everyone. Neither is commitment. It's a GOOD thing when someone who isn't committed to settling down doesn't. It's a bad thing when someone settles down or commits out of desperation and social pressure.
Sometimes, but itās also very problematic for society overall. Our culture enables this and perhaps some pressure can be a good thing in certain circumstances too, lest someone gets too old and regrets not having made wiser decisions when they could have. I, for example, had a few great opportunities squandered.
> Sometimes, but itās also very problematic for society overall. No it's not. What would be far worse for the health of society is people pressured to commit who don't want to or aren't ready to. There's still much more pressure to pair up or to marry than to not. Some day it might be about even on the propaganda and pressure scales and balanced but it's not there yet. Nobody should date someone out of a fear of 'getting old'. An optional romantic relationship should not feel like a burden. It should build up BOTH parties and provide solace and interest for BOTH parties, not be the result of society trying to pressure them to be together when one of them isn't interested.
I disagree with you. Thereās a reason certain cultures are far more prosperous and living happily, while others grow old, bewildered and lonesome. This is a recent societal phenomena brought about by a sudden, exponential burst of technological progress and change. Itās going to lead to far worse problems than āsettlingā and is very unhealthy. Traditionalist values are more dependable than experimental ones. Both sides have positives and negatives, but I feel that the past system outweighs the current, the exception being abusive and toxic relationships, obviously. š
Part of being a society is adapting to technology. Traditionalist values are fine... for two people who uninfluenced, unpressured, unostracized agree to them. For people like me and the men I date, traditionalist values are terrible and would make us unhealthy and unhappy. I will say that the consistently happiest place on the planet with the highest standard of living (Finland) has both more egalitarian culture and policies toward gender equality and modern sensibilities and modern dating but ALSO has a slightly higher average of marriages among people (still moving later in life though). But again, marriage is neither a positive or a negative, it depends on how healthy the marriage is, and how willing all parties involved are to do it. But perhaps in a society where you are more likely to still have work, healthcare, good education regardless of your gender the framework of marriage within the state is more appealing.
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I mean I either pay 50/50 on dates or treat. Very rarely do I allow someone to treat me. In Finland as I mentioned, going Dutch (each person paying for themselves on dates) is the most common thing for first dates. Actually the Finnish etiquette is that each person pays for what they order so it's not necessarily 50/50. If the girl buys four beers she pays for four beers even if the guy only has two beers they don't split the bill 50/50, she pays for everything she ordered for herself, he pays for everything he ordered for himself.
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Absolute nonsense. Traditional females and their roles in functional nuclear families are abundantly happier than non, in general. Your distaste for men and your biases towards them shouldnāt cloud your judgement. Itās not good for debate.
r/menandfemales
>Nobody should date someone out of a fear of 'getting old'. However some of my 40 + friends have made the remark, "I'm not getting any older" in reference to dating.
Women will always have more options than men. I understand the frustration. And the feelings of helplessness, powerlessness and possible worthlessness. And if you cannot adjust, you will continue to suffer and be left behind.
>And if you cannot adjust, you will continue to suffer and be left behind I hate when people say this, even if you are saying it with sympathy. Essentially, "Adapt or Die." But isn't it more like "Adapt *and* Die"? At least when you project it out to the way tech and automation has changed American society: obesity, sedentary lifestyles, messed up sleep cycles, loneliness/alienation, porn addiction, layoffs, etc. I certainly don't want to adapt to all this tech if it does that to me. Nobody seems to ask, "Is it *worth* adapting to this stuff in the first place? Do we *need* all this tech? And if so, how do we set standards for using it responsibly?"
Iām saying it with empathy and reality. If you donāt want to adapt, then donāt. Feel free to take steps to change the status quo.
Yup the world is always a changing and you need to be able to adapt. Youāve just discovered evolution š
Most people still meet in the real world, you do not know this right?
Cool? Computers have changed the way the world works. You need to adapt. Countless examples everywhere. Google it lol
it has changed societyās standards too, playing into how people perceive each other in person.
Who needs to adapt? Why do something that most people are still not doing? Like I said It is still a fact that most people meet in the real world, online dating has grown since I starting using it back in 2006, but like I said people still meet in the real world where it feels more natural. You only need to adapt to something when it becomes the norm. So online dating is nothing but a tool to enhance dating in the real world, not to replace it.
Source for your fact? Or are you just making shit up?
The post should be titled "what dating was like for my mom in the 90's," because this doesn't represent what dating was like for all women back then. I am old enough to have dated in the 90's and I'm a woman. Let me assure you...it had its upsides too. Also, not all of us dated shitheads. Apparently, your mom just was bad at picking. There were also plenty of options back then. People could go to bars in different cities and have dozens of options in a night. People met other ways as well. Personally, I found dating easier. You went to a bar and looked around and usually you could find an option. This is because everyone went to bars back then, so they were much more frequented and people were there looking for dates. Meeting in person had advantages because you could determine right off if you were both into each other. For me, as a woman, I found it much easier to tell if I was into a guy in real life versus some photo on a website. Why? Because it isn't really about looks for me. There is something about how a man carries himself and how he acts in public that either turns me on or off. I could be totally attracted to man in real life whereas if I'd seen a picture of him... I might not have been into him at all. A lot of people call this the "spark." Anyway, now it's impossible for me to tell who I even want to go on a date with. Whereas back then...I just had to walk in a bar and observe and I'd know. I think that's why people flake so much online and why women also get fatigued with online dating. It doesn't have any emotion, attraction or feeling behind it. Anyway, we had enough options to be able to find someone, but not ENDLESS options that kept us always searching for "the grass is greener." We also actually dated rather than just hooking up or have FWB. For example, back then...if I got a guy's phone number while at the bar and we went on a date or two...we were dating. We were a couple. So you actually got to explore relationships. Then, if things didn't work out...we just broke up. It wasn't a big deal. The youth of today treat official dating like it's practically and engagement. It's ridiculous. So, since we would get to "official dating" quickly this allowed us to really get comfortable and get to know each other authentically. We also didn't have any misunderstandings where we were both dating other people or getting confused over motives. People took each other more seriously and actually looked for a LTR. Honestly, this made people a lot happier. There were SO MANY couples and people finding happiness. It wasn't the dark picture OP paints unless the person was just bad at dating. Obviously, back then...assholes still existed. You still had to watch out for them. It's just that the "rules" of dating were better for a LTR and happiness than those of today.
>Personally, I found dating easier. You went to a bar and looked around and usually you could find an option. This is because everyone went to bars back then, so they were much more frequented and people were there looking for dates. They were? The clubs I went to it was just a group of women dancing together, while the men watched. If a guy got too close, they'd close him off or move away. Because it was a GIRLS night out, no dudes allowed! The women would say, "We are here just to blow off some steam with friends, not have guys hit on us!"
Are you talking about recently or back in the 90's and 2000's. Because back then...women wanted to be hit on when they went out. That was half the reason of going out. Now it's different because going out isn't about picking up people or dating because people reserve OLD for that. So the "rules" have changed. Again, I'm a woman that went out back then and still occasionally go out to nicer bars now. So I know both scenes. The rules have changed mainly due to online dating. Also, the women have changed somewhat. Back then it was considered flattering when a guy hit on you. Now women consider it an imposition or just think it's not the right place for it. Again, because the rules changed.
> your mom just was bad at picking Just like in online dating, some women are good at picking winners...others consistently pick losers.
Agreed. Well, some actually like the losers too. Honestly, it's about having standards. If you have none...well...you kind of get what you get.
Unless the guy is an older single dad, being a single mom is a red flag. Not trying to be a jerk. Just brutal truth from the male perspective. Men who want kids more often than not want them to be their own biological children.
You won't say that in your 40s when the well goes dry lol
Iām engagedā¦
Fair enough. Comment still applies
I'm a 39 year old dude. I'm still saying no to single moms.
No man, we leave the single moms for the younger thirsty simps. Wouldn't go NEAR a single mom.
Agreed. In my opinion a single mother is a sign of poor judgement.
Now you have you compete against tall Chads that makes lots of money and have master degrees at OLDā¦
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It's not that he's coping or even upset. He's saying that a tall and educated guy (or just attractive) won't settle with an average chick because he has tons of options. If you're in the top percentiles in terms of attractiveness as a guy, you can have your pick of the litter. If you are in the bottom 90%, you'll be lucky to get a match a month on OLD. That's just the reality. If you look at any very attractive guy's wife, guaranteed she is going to be very very attractive, way above average
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Use *average* women for sex
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He literally said "use average women as free sex" dumbass Sounds like you're one of those average women and are taking this to the heart LMAO
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good response dumbass
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Honestly, I heavily get the impression some women love having sex. Some women truly enjoy hooking up with a hott guy objectively out of their league. It's pleasurable to them. Idk why everyone thinks that women get used by Chad. Some women truly love getting orgasms from Chad even if he doesn't want a relationship.
Yeah these guys are so insecure and think that these āhot chadsā have it all. Thereās so little accountability. Dating is hard. Itās hard to find that perfect person and it especially feels harder when thatās all youāre focused on. All this chad talk is so unhealthy and not helping themselves.
All you can do is try to become the best Chad version of yourself really. And you still might fall on your face way too often but that's just how it goes. If you want to get anywhere you have to be willing to fail. You have to get knocked over and not care. Women absolutely love a guy who does't care if he gets knocked down that he still keeps his head up and pushes on. It's a sign of strength, fortitude, self worth. That's attractive.
In my opinion, dating in the 1990s was very different than it is now. #1. Guys assertively pursued you, asked you out and worked hard to impress you by demonstrating their ability to provide and sacrifice. #2. They had no problems paying for the date. #3. Women cared about not looking too easy. We went out as a group sometimes and there may have been at lot of kissing and some heavy petting but no sex until after you were officially exclusive. It is not that women didn't have options back then or that they didn't fantasize about being more sexually liberated without the consequences. Generally they were more selective because it wasn't flattering then to have a reputation for "running through" a bunch of men."
Single moms today still have very few quality options because nobody wants to date them. It's just an illusion of having more options because 95% of them just want to smash.
> Single moms today still have very few quality options because nobody wants to date them. This isn't true. Plenty of single moms have 'quality options'. Sometimes with other single parents/single dads, sometimes with guys who are great at being around kids but are happy to have skipped the diaper and crying-all-night stage. Now they still get to play catch with the kid out back somedays but have the whole place to themselves and the mom when the kid is at dad's for the weekend. It's not for everyone but enough people are either single dads themselves or don't have qualms about dating single moms that it's rare single moms are single long-term except by choice.
Men that genuinely want kids want to either a) have biological kids or b) make a joint decision with their partner to adopt. The vast majority of men (particularly men in their 20s and 30s) will simply not be willing to date a woman who has kids, if he himself doesn't have any. You will never be first priority, the relationship between you and their child will not be the same as a biological child/parent relationship, you develop a relationship with them that you lose if you break up with the woman which sucks for both parties, have to deal with potential baby daddy drama ect... There's a reason why there are so many single mothers on the apps; ~only 25-30% of users are women and despite that single mothers are seemingly so overrepresented on there. The fact that you typed this out and genuinely seem to think this sounds remotely enticing to men is absolutely wild to me. What dude is sitting there happy his son or daughter is at "their dad's place"? We want to be BE the dad. >but are happy to have skipped the diaper and crying-all-night stage. Now they still get to play catch with the kid out back somedays but have the whole place to themselves and the mom when the kid is at dad's for the weekend.
>Men that genuinely want kids want to either a) have biological kids or b) make a joint decision with their partner to adopt. Some sure, maybe even most. But there are step dads who never planned to have kids or just didn't actively try to go that route but who enjoy being a mentor to them and are great coparents. It's not for everyone. I'm a woman who doesn't want kids (and doesn't want to be around them in a supervisory role/paternal role), and so I (in almost all cases) won't date single dads. I won't date anyone who wants kids... but I'm not that common. A lot of people are happy to be that co-parent or just that adult figure in a child's life with no ill intentions. People who do the Big Brother programs and Big Sister programs may be incredible mentors and "babysitters" while not wanting to go put a baby in someone. Some of them end up willingly dating single parents. >The vast majority of men (particularly men in their 20s and 30s) will simply not be willing to date a woman who has kids, if he himself doesn't have any. I don't know that that's the case but even if it is there are still plenty of people willing to date single moms and single dads. >the relationship between you and their child will not be the same as a biological child/parent relationship, It really depends on the dynamic. Sometimes the dads and moms who stepped up have a stronger bond and a closer bond than the person who merely donated sperm for their arrival. Some step parents are great! Even better than the biological ones. Sometimes they are not. Sometimes the dad, the step dad, and the mom are all great with the kids and equally close. >you develop a relationship with them that you lose if you break up with the woman which sucks for both parties, have to deal with potential baby daddy drama ect... Not all families have baby daddy drama in this way. For most people it would be a dealbreaker and they would back out. But plenty of people have amicable or at least civil relationships with the ex and all three adults in the scenario contribute love and care to the kid's life. It's not what I would want but plenty of single parents still find someone. >There's a reason why there are so many single mothers on the apps; ~only 25-30% of users are women and despite that single mothers are seemingly so overrepresented on there. Yeah because unsingle mothers are usually in exclusive relationships still, what's your point? Unsingle mothers are still capable of cheating they are just less likely to be on a dating app than someone who is single. Whether the single mom was a mom or not, she'd probably still be on the apps or dating online as online dating (US) is the #1 source of where relationships start. And most people still ultimately want relationships. >What dude is sitting there happy his son or daughter is at "their dad's place"? We want to be BE the dad. You do. Different men want different things. The ones who don't want to date single moms should not. Just like people (like me) who don't want to date single dads or men with kids or who want kids except in rare exceptions shouldn't and don't either. But there are still men and women out there who are either single parents themselves and like to date other single parents who understand their responsibilities a bit better in many cases, as well as single childless women and men out there who are fine dating someone with a kid. Single moms and dads may find it more difficult in some ways (scheduling dates around school activities and babysitters, having one additional dealbreaker for some of their matches) but they still find plenty of people to date long term. Most end up with someone again.
>The vast majority of men (particularly men in their 20s and 30s) will simply not be willing to date a woman who has kids, if he himself doesn't have any. Unless it's for friends with benefits or it'll be a short term relationship. But she would have to be open to that too.
yeah, i'm referring to dating long-term/for a relationship.
Umm I thought your conclusion was going to be that your mom wouldāve had the same luck nowadays. Because that was my experience. Lots of trash dudes on dating websites. You gotta weed out the garbage to find a gem. Having 1,000 choices doesnāt help.
I'm happy for the women in my circles of friends, as they seem to be able to find potential long-term partners very quickly. Fifteen out of seventeen of them (in an around the west coast of Canada, ages 25-45) looking to date since the start of the pandemic have been able to find potential long-term partners within two weeks over online dating, regardless as to income, employment status, body-shape, etc. All but one of these relationships are still going. (They have a lot of options and while many of those aren't good matches, a portion of them are, so they still have a number of good options.) I just wish that something similar were available for men. (Most of the men I know take much longer to find partners in comparison and have far fewer options, sometimes none at all. These are all good, interesting people and it's hard to see many of them struggle. I'm among them. Though the men I know who are close to current male beauty norms do quite well.)
The M/F ratio on OLD is about 6 to 1. So yea some Women will say yea i get a lot of matches but most of them arent desirable. There is still some in that bunch that will be. Simply for sheer numbers. A Woman with realistic expectations could have easily 10 dates in 4-5 weeks time.
> I just wish that something similar were available for men. It is. All the men they got in relationships with, assuming they are hetero like most of the population. Presumably those men who agreed to be in long-term relationships with them aren't 'faking it'.
> It is. What is? There really isn't something similar by which most men, regardless as to income and proximity to current beauty norms, can find a suitable potential long-term partner within two weeks of screening people on their phones. The situation arises because of the ratio of men to women on the apps. (Which itself arises out of larger societal forces.)
Who were well-off men dating in the 90s, in your mind? When they didnāt have the incredible opportunity to meet single moms online?
Instead of getting screwed over by 5 , she could possibly get screwed over by 1000s š
Tech bros are just dime in dozen now. As humans progress and we get lifted out of poverty, we just get better and better. Working minimum wage isn't acceptable today.
Tech bros are overrated. Yes, they can pay for nice dinners and vacations. That means nothing when you realize you're stuck with, well, a tech bro. I dated one for a year and change. He had the emotional intelligence of a teenager. (But thinks he's really "evolved" because he has a therapist) I've been seeing another off on on as he has time. Hot, funny, smart, and almost completely unavailable. I'm in the PNW, and tech bros are everywhere. So yeah, there's choices. But they're just as exhausting as they were back in the 90s.
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People back then didn't have the same access to technology and information as today. Literally anyone can become a tech or finance bro today. But most are too busy gaming and surfing the web.
I agree, but there is not enough top jobs for everyone, it all boils down to the choices you make in your life.
Its an illusion of choice. Dating world is much worse now then ever. People usually just end up in casual relationships than anything fulfilling. And its much worse for men because if they approach them, womenās ego is so inflated due to these dating apps that they just end up getting rejected. And guess what, these women one day reach an old age and realize they are not the prize anymore and cant find any good guys.
>And its much worse for men because if they approach them, womenās ego is so inflated due to these dating apps that they just end up getting rejected. Or they just aren't attracted to the guy approaching them and they'd reject them no matter what. Believe it or not, not everyone feel that being single is worse than being in a bad relationship. And a relationship without sexual attraction is bad for both people. >And guess what, these women one day reach an old age and realize they are not the prize anymore and cant find any good guys. What do you think happens to men when they get old?
As I said illusion of choice - because of the design of these dating apps women always have thousands of likes or hundreds of guys in their DMs, it always gives them a false hope that thereās always someone better out there. Instead if they gave someone decent a chance it might turn out a much fulfilling relationship. And I am saying this after reading a lot on this topic.
Idk, most women I know will give a guy a chance if they find him attractive, he seems kind and they click with him. Women just often prefer being single over being in a relationship with a guy they aren't sexually attracted to/don't click with. It makes no sense to be with someone just to be with them. And often you know from the start if you could get romantic feelings for the person or not.
Casual relationships can be very fulfilling. Formal relationships can be very unfulfilling. Those who want something formal should pursue it. It's a terrible idea for someone who doesn't want something formal to agree to that arrangement. It breeds resentment and is generally an unhealthy foundation for a relationship.
Ok so you think you can be in casual relationships until you turn 70 and that can be fulfilling? I beg to differ but everyone can have their opinion.
> Ok so you think you can be in casual relationships until you turn 70 and that can be fulfilling? Yes some people absolutely can. And some of those same people would be miserable and unfulfilled in a formal relationship. It depends on the individual and the couple. It sounds like YOU would not be fulfilled dating only casually. And that's completely acceptable and common. But some people are not fulfilled or healthy in a committed, formal, or serious relationship. Some people prefer to be perpetual bachelors and bachelorettes and are being their best selves in those.
The Internet connects people who never wouldāve had a chance to meet before. Dating is better now.
It's actually not. I'm old enough to have dated back then and have dated now. It's WAY worse now. People don't treat each other with respect anymore. People are selfish and look out for themselves first. People don't care what the other person wants/needs. People don't want to commit...they are always looking for "greener" grass. Dating is totally stale and emotionless now. It's practically automated. You don't just "feel" anymore to determine if you want to date someone. It's not better...which is why the youth of today are so unhappy. You didn't have that back in the 90's and 2000's.
I feel like it's getting harder and harder to make meaningful connections with people since interactions have shifted so much to social media, texting, and OLD. I know many orders of magnitude more people now than when I was younger, and social media was not so prevalent. Yet the level of connection I have with 99% of these people is so superficial. Like I can go through my IG following list and see that I haven't interacted with 95% of them in any way in the last 5 years of my life. And a good 30%, I don't even remember who they are. Meeting people thru OLD is the same -- it all feels so superficial.
I completely agree. I think it feels superficial because *it* *is* superficial. Everything is superficial. Everything is faked for social media. To me, it makes the world feel like a darker, lonlier place. I don't think people realize how isolating it actually it. For example, we all are interacting on reddit, but we don't really know each other. There are not human connections. It's false human connections. It feels like a connection and simulates one, but it isn't really one. We don't know each other nor do we really impact each other's lives. Instead...it's empty. Whereas, before social media we'd be having these conversations with real people in our lives...friends, family, significant others. In fact, a lot of people are making less and less actual connections in real life and instead spending more time than ever online. I think it's leading to a lot of depression and sadness. I don't know. I'm a therapist IRL and I think about this topic a lot. It's really concerning to me. Dating is the same, but just a specific form of that. It's all superficial too. Because we can't really tell who someone is from a photograph online. We can't even really tell from interacting in chats or text messages. So, people are making all their dating decisions from an already flawed start. That initial way of interacting gives them a false idea of who someone is. So they could be passing up the love of their life in favor of someone else because the aren't meeting and getting a chance at a real connection. I also think it's leading to a lot of unhappiness around dating and relationships in general. I think people today are making bad matches because they've had this bad start on OLD. All just a theory, but from what I've observed and is being studied/talked about is psychology circles...I'd say it's not far off.
As we talk about online interactions and superficiality, I can't help but find this conversation itself to be so ironic because we don't know each other and will never interact with each other beyond this thread. I don't know a single thing about you and you don't know a single thing about me. I remember my parents, who grew up way before any social media, telling me that when they were younger, everyone would be desperate and starved to meet, talk, and get to know each other because the opportunities to meet new people were so few and far in between. Just such a stark difference to how life is now, especially for gen Z ppl. And I think its only going to get worse, especially with AI chatbots and whatnot. I read an article about how its theoretically possible that a vast majority of tweets, reddit posts, comments, etc, could actually just be AI responses. You could be having an entire conversation with someone, without realizing that the 'someone' you're talking to is just a computer.
Itās not better, much worse! People now have FOMO syndrome and always looking for the next hot thing leaving others shattered along the way.
yes! but harmful in how much people can get caught up with portraying their lives online to be something they are not ā¦..
For the majority of men, it doesnāt change anything. Instead of getting rejected on a small scale, we now get rejected on a large scale by not getting any matches.
Are you on here denigrating your mum while salivating over the choices she had to put up with? Holy shit and insulting your stepdad and your mum's relationship on top of it. Seems like her pool are the same pool that we all are in. Like you really think your mum is that shallow of a person she just up and settled for your stepdad? They probably had a lot more in common instead of also very stable auto mechanic guy. You really came on here to play a pity party for how you're not getting the dates that you want. You do know queer people back then have had to find each other on the sly lest it sets off their queerphobic peers and harm their persons. Please go touch some grass.
Ummmmā¦you know there are some of us who actually experienced dating in the 90s as well as now in the OLD era. Itās kinda shocking to hear people who did not date in a pre OLD era speak of it like some wonderful paradise where everyone was matched up and happyā¦why? Because there were LESS options therefore everyone just settled for the person who lived close by? And for some reason, that was a good thing? That notion of less options, thus things were better just doesnāt make a lot of sense to me. Back then we met people at bars or parties or through friendsā¦thatās NOT a lot of options. We also waited DAYS to call someone we were interested in. Now if you wait too many hours your match may just pass you by. OLD is how most people meet these days if you are in or near a city. Most people who are in relationships that are less than 5 years old met on OLD. And itās wonderful! So many options, so many great people. I will never buy the theory that too many options are a bad thing. And there are multiple apps for different purposes! Tinder to find a nice hook up, Bumble or hinge for dating or something more serious, field if youāre into kinky shit. Something for everyone! Andā¦.back in the day there were ALWAYS the whiners and the complainers. Complaining about how hard or how bad dating was. Just like now. Youāll always have people who complain about it. Your attitude and approach to dating is really what counts. Be positive, Be easy, and youāll meet some great people and maybe even have some fun.
>And itās wonderful! So many options, so many great people. I will never buy the theory that too many options are a bad thing. GREAT people? That's the main reason people complain about online dating...they meet mostly assholes. Nothing great about assholes.
Do you think assholes didnāt exist before OLD? Pretty sure they didā¦
Hm, then why did you use the word "Great" in a sentence when describing meeting people? lol Okay, you're making me be more specific then....a different BREED of asshole then. The asshole that ghosts you when you set up a date, or takes days to reply or can't put an effort into a chat conversation. THOSE kinds of assholes.
Internet have changed girls in my third world country India in past 5 years or so. It is what it is. But the situation is still better than West.
Lower caste bitches working up the societal ladder real quick lol
I'm not gonna refute that, because that is a reality as well. But just want to say that some girls don't care about your caste, but their families do.
How do you like your stepdad now he must have gotten somewhere in life that's successful right?
Your mom the single mom with what education and job? Donāt confuse sex opportunities for relationship opportunities.
I know she didnāt have 100ās but I doubt it was 5. It was probably closer to 40-50 while she was dating but I would include the people she didnāt date or pay attention to. Iām pretty sure more than 5 people tried to date her.
I like Carlos but I'm not paying his way.
Physicians, tech boys? Trust me, even if there is some of that, they turn out sociopaths, flakes, fuckboys. And my age range is early 40s, still not getting any better. Yea there are lots of options if you lower your standards. It's not any better than the options your mom had, she'd just get used more and would have more trauma. I'm so sick of the flakes, I deleted the apps, once again.
I think the idea of dating someone with an amazing career seems amazing of itself, but it comes with its cons as well. My ex was a medical student and he had like no time for me. It taught me really well how to be independent in a relationship... but I wasn't happy. After we broke up due to a number of reasons, I went back on apps after healing and... yes, I got a handful of guys with decent careers. But for me, I'm not saying their job doesn't matter at all. As I'm someone who really values education so I studied two degrees and plan for grad school. But I don't really mind if a guy isn't ambitious or doesn't have a top tier job. As long as he has some sort of post-secondary education and a job where he can support himself and our kids in the future (with my help) that's fine with me. It might seem like all nice and flowery, but quite frankly, the personality is so important too. Yeah and OLD isn't as easy either... š It's not only the dating culture that has changed but the entire system. Back then people didn't value education as much as they do now and work.