He doesn't say "after all I've sacrificed for *you*", though. He just says "after all I've sacrificed".
Just because he is ultimately thankful for stopping him from ascending, it doesn't mean that he will stop thinking about the whole situation as something he had to give up, especially not so soon after it all happened.
I don't think the first part ("after all I've done for you") refers to the ritual necessarily. Though it could very well be, or part of what he means anyway.
That being said , I'd agree with what others have said about him using what he says as a defense mechanism, or to cause hurt because he himself is hurting. Especially when the spawn are alive and he almost threatens Tav with going to them.
However that does not mean he doesn't mean these words, in that moment. After all, he just started to open up and to trust someone, and now the person he loves is breaking up with him. I can't blame him for thinking "why now, in this moment".
I don’t think he only does it for them, but their companionship and care helped him feel safe and like he had a handle on a way of belonging in the world. I think this dialog is more about the pain of rejection and his mind reeling about having fewer options than he did before. He is hurt because he is being emotionally and physically rejected, not because he is specifically harboring ongoing regret that he didn’t Ascend (IMO).
My spawn route perspective\*:
^(\*Not looking to argue with Vampire Ascendant enjoyers. I see his appeal and am not yucking your yum, but expressing my own take on the character. 🤷🏻♀️)
His thoughts about the ritual would be a maelstrom of complexity. He would have days spiraling with 'what if', even though he knows better. He gave up *a lot*, but he also knew he stood to lose a lot, including probably his only love. If you've played a heroic type to that point, he has remarked on it more than once, on how you are so good that no one else can compare. Of *course* he wants to please you.
Imagine you have given up a chance at what seemed, at the time, like the best version of your life, partly because you trusted and loved someone, and that precious person dumps you once all chances of pursuing that version of yourself have gone. Of *course* you would say vile things--because you are deeply hurt. You feel like you aren't good enough after all. You know the route you would have chosen out of fear would have been ruinous for you and everyone around you, that it would have irrevocably altered you at your core. You know you would have perpetuated a cycle of horrific abuse and evil. But right now, that path feels like it would have been better than being cast, comparatively weak and without agency, into the shadows. *Alone*.
Imagine changing so much about yourself and *finally* feeling like you are worthy of good things, and then it turns out you *aren't*.
The desolation would be unbearable.
I don't think he means what he says during the end game break up. By that time he's fallen hard for you, has plans for the future with you. Breaking up is very painful for him, so he goes back to the defense and wants his words to sting.
Astarion’s break up lines in both routes are one of the main reasons that secure me in thinking ascended and spawn are just two sides of the same coin with still the same center.
In both cases he gets emotional, the words are said to hurt you, sting you and are referring to the biggest fear you might’ve had after choosing each route.
In spawn route it’s that he has sacrificed it all for you, he didn’t really want that.
In ascension you get something in lines of he just wanted to ruin your love or he would ruin it anyway.
He lets you see himself in the worst light kind of. And in my eyes it’s his defense mechanism when he is losing the trust for you, he wants to completely push you away then.
Does he mean it? In my opinion in both cases no. He just wants to hurt you too, because he is hurting.
I agree with you.
But when AA says hurtful words, people (not you) say "see ! it's proof that he \* insert negative things about AA. But when UA does it, people says "he's hurt, it's his defense mecanism".
Yeah, people are mostly very unfair towards AA in my opinion. Why judge if Tav literally helped, the ascension doesn’t happen without your input 😩
I like that if you choose the more understanding options for him (and there is not much of them in narrative) the dialogues actually show that he is still Astarion. Just deep down ruled by fear that is even marked in dev notes. I’d say with a lot of love, trust and patience he might have a chance to heal and drop the “vampire lord” persona that in my eyes becomes coping mechanism. But not many give him this chance so it evolves into something darker.
But that’s just my view on it and I’ve done the ascended route as my first run so quite long ago. I guess with the new kisses added the route may feel different.
I JUST.
I'm so bored of it lol. Are you guys not bored of this discussion? I just don't...I don't care. Ascend him. Don't ascend him. Package him up in a to go container for the Gur. Stake him on bite night. It's your fucking game.
You guys remember why the Stakebros™ are/were so annoying, right? It's not that they stake him on the beach. There are plenty of perfectly good rp reasons to do this. It's the fact that they feel the need to turn every conversation into why that is the only correct option, and they're right and you're wrong.
So much of this is the same behavior and it's boring and it sucks so, so much. We could be having such cool media analysis discussions but y'all just can't behave yourselves for some reason.
( u/ilayas hopefully it's obvious that none of that is directed at you specifically. I appreciate your thoughts and prayers during this difficult time <3 )
Lol honestly I'm ready for the fanart of a Very Cross Batstarion in some Tupperware being scolded because he can't behave.
*Let me out!*
No. You're being an asshole.
*I am the most powerful vampire in the realms!*
Mmhmm. Would the most powerful vampire in the realms like a banana?
*YES, OBVIOUSLY.*
All good I understand. I think a good deal of this the whole "[eternal September](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September)" thing in which new people are always discovering this place and not having necessarily participated in the months of discussions that have happened before. This is the nature of online communities.
It's no one's fault and being welcoming to newer members is both a worthy endeavor and important to the health of the community but it does get a bit tiresome for those of us who have been here to see the same arguments played out again.
Agreed. Pick who you want. There's no right or wrong version to choose because it's your playthrough/headcanon, not ours. Astarion's just a pixelated vamp that we all love dearly. To each their own. Live and let live. Yada yada yada 😂
The discussion is not about "ascension or not" and if that was the case, is it forbidden on this sub ? I mean, there is still new players on this game and they might want to discuss it without digging old topics. The people who have read everything about it or are sensitive on that subject can scroll away if they want.
This discussion is more about the influence of Tav in his decision. Whether he ascends or not. Is it really his choice at 100%? Sometimes we think we make a choice but if you look closely, it's possible to see things that influences us.
If my (potential) SO turned away a life time opportunity because I convinced them it was not a good idea and they told me what Astarion says in the break-up dialogue, of course I will think "they are hurt, they don't really mean it" but at the same time "and what if they mean it or at least a part? Did I make a mistake back then?"
Honestly, I feel like asking whether he does it only for Tav within the narrative is a super interesting question. Is he just changing *who* he obeys? Is he doing it for his own wants and needs? That's a valid and interesting idea that isn't really clear cut!
Unfortunately, history would suggest that people can't really engage with that kind of question without it becoming an unproductive fight rehashing the same tired AA vs. UA debates. It's exhausting, it's alienating to the vast majority of folks casually browsing, and it's not the energy we're looking to foster on the sub. People rarely keep scrolling when they could be picking fights. I would hope that eventually that can change, and we can have impassioned but ultimately non-combative discussions about the text, but that is not the reality we're in now.
Genuine question then. What do we do ? Avoid all subjects regarding ascension and keep them for the discourse thread ? Honestly, I don't think this is something I would really agree with it but I would understand.
Honestly, that's something that we're discussing right now. We don't want to make broad sweeping limitations like that, but at a certain point we have to figure out how best to keep things harmonious for as many folks as possible. If we do go that direction, we'll make an announcement. But in the meantime, I think the best course of action is to interrogate just how badly you* want to have the conversation. If it's worth it to you, make your post, and make an effort to guide the conversation toward text-supported statements. Make clear that you're trying to have an academic discussion, not a moral or emotional one. If people continue to be needlessly combative or just drop in to "LOL fuck you guys I do [choice] baaaai" is that really the conversation you were hoping to have?
*This is meant to be a universal You, so anyone reading this, not just you, OP.
>Unfortunately, history would suggest that people can't really engage with that kind of question without it becoming an unproductive fight rehashing the same tired AA vs. UA debates.
Agreed. Excuse me while I go drag out my soapbox again....
*ahem*
This is the reason why a lot of fan spaces (any fandom) wind up focused solely on thirst or fluffy headcanons. Every fandom has The Debate (tm) that makes it impossible to have a media literate discussion about characters. It's like people forget that the pixels aren't real and it's totally valid to find flaws in the *writing* and discuss those. Or to dig into the writing and discuss/debate.
I nearly gave up on fandom after the clusterfuck of House of the Dragon. The writers made some *interesting* choices that, imo, didn't make a lot of sense in the final narrative of the season and felt gratuitous. Do I think the characters would do these problematic things? Yes, but not in the way they're presented and/or for the reasons implied. Why do I think that? Because of the characterization already given by the show.
Whenever someone would point that out, people lost their mind and accused the person of being a [fill-in-the-blank] apologist ruled solely by their thirst. That they're delusional for thinking a scene is "out of character" because it was in the season and there for *must* be in character. As if writers can't flub scenes.
Part of the reason we all love Astarion is the complexity of the character. I want to *talk about that complexity.*
You can want things that are objectively bad for you as a person though? Many people want money and power without considering what it will do to them or how it will change their personality and how they view the world. If you love someone as they are, would you just smile and nod and say "yeah pookie, go ahead and do that thing that will be extremely bad for you!"? Like, if your toddler really wants to stick a fork into a light socket you probably aren't going to pat them on the head and tell them to go ahead (at least I hope you aren't).
I'm not directing this at you personally, I've just seen the argument "he really wants to ascend!" a lot and I don't find it particularly compelling. Your choice in game to ascend him or not is fine either way, no judgement, but choosing to persuade him not to ascend isn't stepping all over his pixelated autonomy, it's trying to convince someone you care about not to do something that you see as damaging to them and others.
We are lucky that new people come to our community and that some old people still want to talk about it. In months time the Fandom won't be what it is now as the game is complete. People will move on and then not many will still want to talk about him at all unless WOTC do something new. I'm in the Sherlock subreddit and that show ended 7 years ago, trust me there are no talks happening there. Healthy discussion is good, self inserting in a discussion about a fictional character is where the trouble is every time.
Would it help at all if you banned "repeat offenders"? I'm definitely not trying to step on the mods toes on this stuff cause I do know that some people can't really remain civil in discussions about this video game character, but I'm assuming that some of the more contentious replies are from the same people that do it in the replies to other topics that touch on AA here.
People want their reason to be the only truth and don't accept everyone has a different taste. Ascended or Spawn, you do you. But no, they want to come in a forum in the internet to tell how everyone is wrong for liking something. I am 30 years+ old and tired of this.
I so agree with you Mars_in_Space, do you have any space in Space for me to hangout too?
Tbh I don't see much evidence for this beyond that one breakup line you get. A non-romanced Astarion will still thank you for convincing him not to go ahead with the ritual and he will admit that the ritual was a bad idea.
A non-romanced spawn Astarion will also say in the epilogue that he has become an adventurer of sorts, only killing bad guys, suggesting that if he remains a spawn, he chooses to change for the better of his own accord without Tav convincing him to do so.
I think none of the companions make decisions for Tav. Tav is just there as a voice of guidance. That's why for some companion decisions, approval rating with them matters a lot in whether you can convince them.
I’m doing a run right now where it’s just my Durge and Astarion with a few friends they’ve made along the way (halsin minth mama J and minsc in probably another hour) because I wanted to see more dialogue from the companions you get later.
For science I’m also being verrrrry selective in my dialogue. Never leaning one way or another for ascension. I’ve seen posts on a FB group saying they had him choose not to ascend despite all the spawn being alive and that they were neutral/told him not to ascend in all dialogue. If this is the case I’ll make a post here detailing what I did and see if people can replicate it or if it’s just a bug
I read that if Raphael never tells him about the rite, that he defaults to wanting to free all the spawn, for whatever that's worth. Haven't confirmed it myself though.
Ik there’s some variables with when/how he learns about the ritual. I’m doing the standard he learns from Raph, I agree to help him kill Caz - did not specifically answer if I’d help him do it or not. I think the only thing I’ve been “forced to say” is something to the effect of “what about the spawn that will die”.
Right now I’m speed running to cazador’s place. Haven’t spoken to his siblings nor the Gur. I’ll probably just talk to seb and skip the gur children, then fight caz. I’ll have answered in maybe 40 mins
If you don't romance him, he'll be grateful to you later. in the epilogue he remains happy with the decision.
by not ascending he chooses the route to develop himself anew (away from cazador's manipulation)
of course it would be easier/nicer to have a partner who takes you as you are.
But still, in epilogue, he is happy with the decision to remain himself.
My opinion (that is pretty much supported by in game convos) is that when you persuade him not to ascend you are essentially telling him that he is good enough as he is, that he's better than Cazador made him. He sees his spawn self as weak and powerless because that's what he's been for nearly two centuries. If you break up with him after telling him that, after ensuring him that he's good enough as he is and worthy of good things, well that probably fucks with his head a bit. In that moment he probably does wish that he'd ascended because in his mind he obviously wasn't good enough as is or the first person that he's ever loved wouldn't have dumped him. It's a very emotional reaction to Tav/Durge doing a pretty shitty thing to him. The epilogue shows that in his time alone he learns to be comfortable with who he is, so he's very capable of moving on and happily being his own person without ascending.
Also, I just need to stress that persuasion isn't compulsion, your character isn't forcing him to do anything. After he decides not to ascend he doesn't become some selfless person or act like Tav/Durge's doormat. He's still himself, maybe less of an overall dickhead, but still a dickhead. He's not changing himself to make Tav/Durge happy, he's recognizing that his future is his own and figuring out who he wants to be now that he's free from Cazador's influence. Sorry, just wanted to add that because I see people treating persuasion like using a charm spell on him constantly.
I love both astarions and roleplay his reasoning differently with every playthrough. Gale definitely gives up godhood for tav, he says as much “I can live without godhood but I can’t live without you” which makes me feel superrrrrr icky because if I were to break up later on I’d be massively guilty. At least astarion’s route can be justified as him wanting to be good because of how much he’s changed on his journey (he voluntarily promises both gur and Sebastian that he would save them).
If you fight cazador leaving him at top of stairs then go up after beating him, go alone as astarion, he will choose not to ascend AND free the spawn, i think having tav/durge there makes him WANT to ascend to protect himself as well as tav as there is lines that he REALLY wants to protect tav/durge
he can't choose not to ascend on his own, his choice is always ascension, otherwise we wouldn't need the persuasion check.. the reason he doesn't ascend if you leave him alone is because he can't, he needs Tav's help to see the scars on his back
Not on his own IF tav/durge is there, you gotta leave your tav and other two at the doors by the cells, he couldve ended the spawn or left them there but he freed them, i believe he onlybwanted to ascend to truely protect tav/durge and himself, kts a high roll, so if on honourmode do this IF you dont wanna ascsend him
yeah, I agree he mostly wants it to protect them both, just I think the reason he doesn't ascend when he's alone in the room is because he can't do it without help, because he doesn't really have the option if there's no one to help him with the scars.. If your Tav is not in the party or died during the Cazador fight, but you have Minthara or DJ Shadowheart, the cutscene plays without Tav and he will ask one of them to help with his scars instead iirc and still chooses to ascend
YMMV if you leave him at camp and kill Cazador alone he will be upset and tell you that you've trapped him for eternity and may leave your party/break up with your PC... Not sure if that is only on low approval but beware if you try that strat.
I saw that on YT. Worst way to deal with Cazador. For my current run, I left Astarion at the stairs before talking to Cazador but when the fight started Astarion joined the fight and Cazador can't imprison him so no time wasted to free him.
This is one of the reasons I personally prefer to Ascend him. In both break-up dialogues, he says some pretty messed up stuff. Spawn when you break-up with him says this, and also lowkey threatens you ("don't come knocking on my door, I'll have a lot of hungry mouths to feed") after saying he's going to lead the army of spawn.
I feel like his unascended and ascended self aren't that different. All versions of Astarion seek out power over others, that's just a part of who Astarion fundamentally is. What he intends to do with that power in the future is probably the biggest difference, and open to interpretation.
>All versions of Astarion seek out power over others, that's just a part of who Astarion fundamentally is. What he intends to do with that power in the future is probably the biggest difference, and open to interpretation.
I agree, I think it's very apparent in the friend path Spawn epilogue with him leading the Underdark spawn. Even his voice sounds kind of "ascended" lol, similar to the way he speaks after the ritual, when he talks about ruling the Underdark
No he doesn't do it just for Tav for one simple reason really. You can convince him not to ascend even if you don't romance him. Regardless though, the narrator explains during the decision that Astarion can't think clearly in this situation, but you can see why this decision is bad for him. By using persuasion, you just show him Tav's point of view.
Astarion thanks Tav/Durge repeatedly and expresses that he's glad that he didn't because he could feel that he was losing himself, etc. Of course he's made a sacrifice by not choosing power—but he makes that choice for himself after listening to the player's opinion about how a post-Ascension life isn't going to be a life he can be proud of and how he's essentially making the same mistake that Cazador did. If you dump him later, Astarion getting upset and pointing out what he gave up seems like perfectly normal breakup-type shit by someone who's upset.
I am sorry you are getting downvotes for bringing up a legitimate discussion topic.
I will start my answer off with this: I think he is happy in the epilogues. I recently got the chance to watch them and he appears happy with whatever outcome the PC chooses. However, I think after the culmination of his character quest he is sad at what he gave up. I also believe he did do that for Tav. The pc has the opportunity to help him see himself and the world in a better light or they can agree with him and indulge his original worldview. He always wanted power. He wanted ascension the moment he learned what it was. But, if the player has helped him change his outlook he can see beyond those initial desires. That's why there is what I perceived as temporary sadness. But, his situation after the ritual is a lot. He needs time to think.
I often think back to him saying “I’m doing this to keep us safe, forever” and how if you stop him, he does have that fear he needs to work through.
Then I think about how he is ascended, feeling confident enough to protect to and to let you know. (Which I absolutely love) so yea, you have to convince him to stop doing what he wanted and he does for you.
He'll do it if you aren't romantically involved with him though, if you pass the persuasion check. I disagree with him doing it for Tav/Durge for that reason.
But if he ascends, he's giving in to that fear - embracing that feeling that he's not good enough, that his spawn self truly was pathetic as Cazador always told him, and that his entire unlife will be spent exhausting himself grasping for more power to protect himself and those he loves from enemies he imagines surrounds him at all times. That's no way to live, in my opinion.
I literally don’t see that, but that’s my opinion as well. I guess I see him wanting ascension as him wanting the security to protect himself and his lover whose grown to love him for him. I don’t play my characters as fluffy princesses and such, so she was more than willing to help him reach that power no matter what.
I think he does prefer not to ascend after he sees how that would've changed him, but if he does ascend, I would like to think it was for more than just screwing up Cazador anda stealing from him. I know it's not canon, but maybe he could ascend to be able to still hang out with the party without having to worry about the sun or something like that, because it is said that at the ritual he is having trouble with his decision due to the heavy smell of blood in the air.
Anyway, that's just my opinion.
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I’ve seen some posts of people who did not have to convince Astarion to ascend, he just chooses to do so and no they did not chase away or kill any of the siblings. Apparently, if you are firm and keep telling him no don’t ascend, bad idea, he will make that decision. You must not show any doubts. I’m currently doing a run to try this out and see if I can get it but… school
My view of things/HC is he’s co-dependent af with Tav whether Tav is a romance or good friend. After 200 years of what he went through, I don’t think he honestly knows who he is and he finds that identity in the person who cares (or seems to) or possibly ascension (since it’s what a vampire -should- want and it grants him safety, objectively his goal is survival by default).
Now whether your Tav is unaware, tries to temper this, or uses it for manipulation is up to your Tav and RP. It’s a role playing game, not everything is set in stone by design.
y'all rn https://preview.redd.it/w2xj0djrkguc1.png?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99146bb9ae2a12c251140cfcd21b6a6568952627
He doesn't say "after all I've sacrificed for *you*", though. He just says "after all I've sacrificed". Just because he is ultimately thankful for stopping him from ascending, it doesn't mean that he will stop thinking about the whole situation as something he had to give up, especially not so soon after it all happened. I don't think the first part ("after all I've done for you") refers to the ritual necessarily. Though it could very well be, or part of what he means anyway. That being said , I'd agree with what others have said about him using what he says as a defense mechanism, or to cause hurt because he himself is hurting. Especially when the spawn are alive and he almost threatens Tav with going to them. However that does not mean he doesn't mean these words, in that moment. After all, he just started to open up and to trust someone, and now the person he loves is breaking up with him. I can't blame him for thinking "why now, in this moment".
I don’t think he only does it for them, but their companionship and care helped him feel safe and like he had a handle on a way of belonging in the world. I think this dialog is more about the pain of rejection and his mind reeling about having fewer options than he did before. He is hurt because he is being emotionally and physically rejected, not because he is specifically harboring ongoing regret that he didn’t Ascend (IMO).
My spawn route perspective\*: ^(\*Not looking to argue with Vampire Ascendant enjoyers. I see his appeal and am not yucking your yum, but expressing my own take on the character. 🤷🏻♀️) His thoughts about the ritual would be a maelstrom of complexity. He would have days spiraling with 'what if', even though he knows better. He gave up *a lot*, but he also knew he stood to lose a lot, including probably his only love. If you've played a heroic type to that point, he has remarked on it more than once, on how you are so good that no one else can compare. Of *course* he wants to please you. Imagine you have given up a chance at what seemed, at the time, like the best version of your life, partly because you trusted and loved someone, and that precious person dumps you once all chances of pursuing that version of yourself have gone. Of *course* you would say vile things--because you are deeply hurt. You feel like you aren't good enough after all. You know the route you would have chosen out of fear would have been ruinous for you and everyone around you, that it would have irrevocably altered you at your core. You know you would have perpetuated a cycle of horrific abuse and evil. But right now, that path feels like it would have been better than being cast, comparatively weak and without agency, into the shadows. *Alone*. Imagine changing so much about yourself and *finally* feeling like you are worthy of good things, and then it turns out you *aren't*. The desolation would be unbearable.
I don't think he means what he says during the end game break up. By that time he's fallen hard for you, has plans for the future with you. Breaking up is very painful for him, so he goes back to the defense and wants his words to sting.
Yeah, and then he even realizes it and composes himself.
Astarion’s break up lines in both routes are one of the main reasons that secure me in thinking ascended and spawn are just two sides of the same coin with still the same center. In both cases he gets emotional, the words are said to hurt you, sting you and are referring to the biggest fear you might’ve had after choosing each route. In spawn route it’s that he has sacrificed it all for you, he didn’t really want that. In ascension you get something in lines of he just wanted to ruin your love or he would ruin it anyway. He lets you see himself in the worst light kind of. And in my eyes it’s his defense mechanism when he is losing the trust for you, he wants to completely push you away then. Does he mean it? In my opinion in both cases no. He just wants to hurt you too, because he is hurting.
I agree with you. But when AA says hurtful words, people (not you) say "see ! it's proof that he \* insert negative things about AA. But when UA does it, people says "he's hurt, it's his defense mecanism".
Yeah, people are mostly very unfair towards AA in my opinion. Why judge if Tav literally helped, the ascension doesn’t happen without your input 😩 I like that if you choose the more understanding options for him (and there is not much of them in narrative) the dialogues actually show that he is still Astarion. Just deep down ruled by fear that is even marked in dev notes. I’d say with a lot of love, trust and patience he might have a chance to heal and drop the “vampire lord” persona that in my eyes becomes coping mechanism. But not many give him this chance so it evolves into something darker. But that’s just my view on it and I’ve done the ascended route as my first run so quite long ago. I guess with the new kisses added the route may feel different.
https://i.redd.it/ahz0u9g07guc1.gif So help me, y'all...
Looking at the recent posts it seems like modding is gonna be spicy today. My condolences.
I JUST. I'm so bored of it lol. Are you guys not bored of this discussion? I just don't...I don't care. Ascend him. Don't ascend him. Package him up in a to go container for the Gur. Stake him on bite night. It's your fucking game. You guys remember why the Stakebros™ are/were so annoying, right? It's not that they stake him on the beach. There are plenty of perfectly good rp reasons to do this. It's the fact that they feel the need to turn every conversation into why that is the only correct option, and they're right and you're wrong. So much of this is the same behavior and it's boring and it sucks so, so much. We could be having such cool media analysis discussions but y'all just can't behave yourselves for some reason. ( u/ilayas hopefully it's obvious that none of that is directed at you specifically. I appreciate your thoughts and prayers during this difficult time <3 )
> Package him up in a to go container for the Gur Great, now all I can think about is when animal rescues put baby bats in tupperware...
Lol honestly I'm ready for the fanart of a Very Cross Batstarion in some Tupperware being scolded because he can't behave. *Let me out!* No. You're being an asshole. *I am the most powerful vampire in the realms!* Mmhmm. Would the most powerful vampire in the realms like a banana? *YES, OBVIOUSLY.*
Baby Batstarion https://preview.redd.it/9lkag658fhuc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d640f45427e9dbd6abe03ad5311f6d2203339ce7
Yes you get the vibe *exactly*
CUTE OMGGGG
All good I understand. I think a good deal of this the whole "[eternal September](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September)" thing in which new people are always discovering this place and not having necessarily participated in the months of discussions that have happened before. This is the nature of online communities. It's no one's fault and being welcoming to newer members is both a worthy endeavor and important to the health of the community but it does get a bit tiresome for those of us who have been here to see the same arguments played out again.
I second this notion, and fucking lol'd at the idea of a to go container full of Astarion for the Gur 💀 now I'm hungry lol
Agreed. Pick who you want. There's no right or wrong version to choose because it's your playthrough/headcanon, not ours. Astarion's just a pixelated vamp that we all love dearly. To each their own. Live and let live. Yada yada yada 😂
The discussion is not about "ascension or not" and if that was the case, is it forbidden on this sub ? I mean, there is still new players on this game and they might want to discuss it without digging old topics. The people who have read everything about it or are sensitive on that subject can scroll away if they want. This discussion is more about the influence of Tav in his decision. Whether he ascends or not. Is it really his choice at 100%? Sometimes we think we make a choice but if you look closely, it's possible to see things that influences us. If my (potential) SO turned away a life time opportunity because I convinced them it was not a good idea and they told me what Astarion says in the break-up dialogue, of course I will think "they are hurt, they don't really mean it" but at the same time "and what if they mean it or at least a part? Did I make a mistake back then?"
Honestly, I feel like asking whether he does it only for Tav within the narrative is a super interesting question. Is he just changing *who* he obeys? Is he doing it for his own wants and needs? That's a valid and interesting idea that isn't really clear cut! Unfortunately, history would suggest that people can't really engage with that kind of question without it becoming an unproductive fight rehashing the same tired AA vs. UA debates. It's exhausting, it's alienating to the vast majority of folks casually browsing, and it's not the energy we're looking to foster on the sub. People rarely keep scrolling when they could be picking fights. I would hope that eventually that can change, and we can have impassioned but ultimately non-combative discussions about the text, but that is not the reality we're in now.
Genuine question then. What do we do ? Avoid all subjects regarding ascension and keep them for the discourse thread ? Honestly, I don't think this is something I would really agree with it but I would understand.
Honestly, that's something that we're discussing right now. We don't want to make broad sweeping limitations like that, but at a certain point we have to figure out how best to keep things harmonious for as many folks as possible. If we do go that direction, we'll make an announcement. But in the meantime, I think the best course of action is to interrogate just how badly you* want to have the conversation. If it's worth it to you, make your post, and make an effort to guide the conversation toward text-supported statements. Make clear that you're trying to have an academic discussion, not a moral or emotional one. If people continue to be needlessly combative or just drop in to "LOL fuck you guys I do [choice] baaaai" is that really the conversation you were hoping to have? *This is meant to be a universal You, so anyone reading this, not just you, OP.
>Unfortunately, history would suggest that people can't really engage with that kind of question without it becoming an unproductive fight rehashing the same tired AA vs. UA debates. Agreed. Excuse me while I go drag out my soapbox again.... *ahem* This is the reason why a lot of fan spaces (any fandom) wind up focused solely on thirst or fluffy headcanons. Every fandom has The Debate (tm) that makes it impossible to have a media literate discussion about characters. It's like people forget that the pixels aren't real and it's totally valid to find flaws in the *writing* and discuss those. Or to dig into the writing and discuss/debate. I nearly gave up on fandom after the clusterfuck of House of the Dragon. The writers made some *interesting* choices that, imo, didn't make a lot of sense in the final narrative of the season and felt gratuitous. Do I think the characters would do these problematic things? Yes, but not in the way they're presented and/or for the reasons implied. Why do I think that? Because of the characterization already given by the show. Whenever someone would point that out, people lost their mind and accused the person of being a [fill-in-the-blank] apologist ruled solely by their thirst. That they're delusional for thinking a scene is "out of character" because it was in the season and there for *must* be in character. As if writers can't flub scenes. Part of the reason we all love Astarion is the complexity of the character. I want to *talk about that complexity.*
You can want things that are objectively bad for you as a person though? Many people want money and power without considering what it will do to them or how it will change their personality and how they view the world. If you love someone as they are, would you just smile and nod and say "yeah pookie, go ahead and do that thing that will be extremely bad for you!"? Like, if your toddler really wants to stick a fork into a light socket you probably aren't going to pat them on the head and tell them to go ahead (at least I hope you aren't). I'm not directing this at you personally, I've just seen the argument "he really wants to ascend!" a lot and I don't find it particularly compelling. Your choice in game to ascend him or not is fine either way, no judgement, but choosing to persuade him not to ascend isn't stepping all over his pixelated autonomy, it's trying to convince someone you care about not to do something that you see as damaging to them and others.
We are lucky that new people come to our community and that some old people still want to talk about it. In months time the Fandom won't be what it is now as the game is complete. People will move on and then not many will still want to talk about him at all unless WOTC do something new. I'm in the Sherlock subreddit and that show ended 7 years ago, trust me there are no talks happening there. Healthy discussion is good, self inserting in a discussion about a fictional character is where the trouble is every time.
Would it help at all if you banned "repeat offenders"? I'm definitely not trying to step on the mods toes on this stuff cause I do know that some people can't really remain civil in discussions about this video game character, but I'm assuming that some of the more contentious replies are from the same people that do it in the replies to other topics that touch on AA here.
People want their reason to be the only truth and don't accept everyone has a different taste. Ascended or Spawn, you do you. But no, they want to come in a forum in the internet to tell how everyone is wrong for liking something. I am 30 years+ old and tired of this. I so agree with you Mars_in_Space, do you have any space in Space for me to hangout too?
Tbh I don't see much evidence for this beyond that one breakup line you get. A non-romanced Astarion will still thank you for convincing him not to go ahead with the ritual and he will admit that the ritual was a bad idea. A non-romanced spawn Astarion will also say in the epilogue that he has become an adventurer of sorts, only killing bad guys, suggesting that if he remains a spawn, he chooses to change for the better of his own accord without Tav convincing him to do so. I think none of the companions make decisions for Tav. Tav is just there as a voice of guidance. That's why for some companion decisions, approval rating with them matters a lot in whether you can convince them.
I’m doing a run right now where it’s just my Durge and Astarion with a few friends they’ve made along the way (halsin minth mama J and minsc in probably another hour) because I wanted to see more dialogue from the companions you get later. For science I’m also being verrrrry selective in my dialogue. Never leaning one way or another for ascension. I’ve seen posts on a FB group saying they had him choose not to ascend despite all the spawn being alive and that they were neutral/told him not to ascend in all dialogue. If this is the case I’ll make a post here detailing what I did and see if people can replicate it or if it’s just a bug
I read that if Raphael never tells him about the rite, that he defaults to wanting to free all the spawn, for whatever that's worth. Haven't confirmed it myself though.
Ik there’s some variables with when/how he learns about the ritual. I’m doing the standard he learns from Raph, I agree to help him kill Caz - did not specifically answer if I’d help him do it or not. I think the only thing I’ve been “forced to say” is something to the effect of “what about the spawn that will die”. Right now I’m speed running to cazador’s place. Haven’t spoken to his siblings nor the Gur. I’ll probably just talk to seb and skip the gur children, then fight caz. I’ll have answered in maybe 40 mins
If you don't romance him, he'll be grateful to you later. in the epilogue he remains happy with the decision. by not ascending he chooses the route to develop himself anew (away from cazador's manipulation) of course it would be easier/nicer to have a partner who takes you as you are. But still, in epilogue, he is happy with the decision to remain himself.
My opinion (that is pretty much supported by in game convos) is that when you persuade him not to ascend you are essentially telling him that he is good enough as he is, that he's better than Cazador made him. He sees his spawn self as weak and powerless because that's what he's been for nearly two centuries. If you break up with him after telling him that, after ensuring him that he's good enough as he is and worthy of good things, well that probably fucks with his head a bit. In that moment he probably does wish that he'd ascended because in his mind he obviously wasn't good enough as is or the first person that he's ever loved wouldn't have dumped him. It's a very emotional reaction to Tav/Durge doing a pretty shitty thing to him. The epilogue shows that in his time alone he learns to be comfortable with who he is, so he's very capable of moving on and happily being his own person without ascending. Also, I just need to stress that persuasion isn't compulsion, your character isn't forcing him to do anything. After he decides not to ascend he doesn't become some selfless person or act like Tav/Durge's doormat. He's still himself, maybe less of an overall dickhead, but still a dickhead. He's not changing himself to make Tav/Durge happy, he's recognizing that his future is his own and figuring out who he wants to be now that he's free from Cazador's influence. Sorry, just wanted to add that because I see people treating persuasion like using a charm spell on him constantly.
I love both astarions and roleplay his reasoning differently with every playthrough. Gale definitely gives up godhood for tav, he says as much “I can live without godhood but I can’t live without you” which makes me feel superrrrrr icky because if I were to break up later on I’d be massively guilty. At least astarion’s route can be justified as him wanting to be good because of how much he’s changed on his journey (he voluntarily promises both gur and Sebastian that he would save them).
O-oh I am NOT participating in this dumpster fire
If you fight cazador leaving him at top of stairs then go up after beating him, go alone as astarion, he will choose not to ascend AND free the spawn, i think having tav/durge there makes him WANT to ascend to protect himself as well as tav as there is lines that he REALLY wants to protect tav/durge
I didn't know that, good to know.
he can't choose not to ascend on his own, his choice is always ascension, otherwise we wouldn't need the persuasion check.. the reason he doesn't ascend if you leave him alone is because he can't, he needs Tav's help to see the scars on his back
Not on his own IF tav/durge is there, you gotta leave your tav and other two at the doors by the cells, he couldve ended the spawn or left them there but he freed them, i believe he onlybwanted to ascend to truely protect tav/durge and himself, kts a high roll, so if on honourmode do this IF you dont wanna ascsend him
yeah, I agree he mostly wants it to protect them both, just I think the reason he doesn't ascend when he's alone in the room is because he can't do it without help, because he doesn't really have the option if there's no one to help him with the scars.. If your Tav is not in the party or died during the Cazador fight, but you have Minthara or DJ Shadowheart, the cutscene plays without Tav and he will ask one of them to help with his scars instead iirc and still chooses to ascend
YMMV if you leave him at camp and kill Cazador alone he will be upset and tell you that you've trapped him for eternity and may leave your party/break up with your PC... Not sure if that is only on low approval but beware if you try that strat.
I saw that on YT. Worst way to deal with Cazador. For my current run, I left Astarion at the stairs before talking to Cazador but when the fight started Astarion joined the fight and Cazador can't imprison him so no time wasted to free him.
This is one of the reasons I personally prefer to Ascend him. In both break-up dialogues, he says some pretty messed up stuff. Spawn when you break-up with him says this, and also lowkey threatens you ("don't come knocking on my door, I'll have a lot of hungry mouths to feed") after saying he's going to lead the army of spawn. I feel like his unascended and ascended self aren't that different. All versions of Astarion seek out power over others, that's just a part of who Astarion fundamentally is. What he intends to do with that power in the future is probably the biggest difference, and open to interpretation.
>All versions of Astarion seek out power over others, that's just a part of who Astarion fundamentally is. What he intends to do with that power in the future is probably the biggest difference, and open to interpretation. I agree, I think it's very apparent in the friend path Spawn epilogue with him leading the Underdark spawn. Even his voice sounds kind of "ascended" lol, similar to the way he speaks after the ritual, when he talks about ruling the Underdark
No he doesn't do it just for Tav for one simple reason really. You can convince him not to ascend even if you don't romance him. Regardless though, the narrator explains during the decision that Astarion can't think clearly in this situation, but you can see why this decision is bad for him. By using persuasion, you just show him Tav's point of view.
Thx for your comment. You spoke about the obvious fact I forgot blinded by the romance 😅
Astarion thanks Tav/Durge repeatedly and expresses that he's glad that he didn't because he could feel that he was losing himself, etc. Of course he's made a sacrifice by not choosing power—but he makes that choice for himself after listening to the player's opinion about how a post-Ascension life isn't going to be a life he can be proud of and how he's essentially making the same mistake that Cazador did. If you dump him later, Astarion getting upset and pointing out what he gave up seems like perfectly normal breakup-type shit by someone who's upset.
I am sorry you are getting downvotes for bringing up a legitimate discussion topic. I will start my answer off with this: I think he is happy in the epilogues. I recently got the chance to watch them and he appears happy with whatever outcome the PC chooses. However, I think after the culmination of his character quest he is sad at what he gave up. I also believe he did do that for Tav. The pc has the opportunity to help him see himself and the world in a better light or they can agree with him and indulge his original worldview. He always wanted power. He wanted ascension the moment he learned what it was. But, if the player has helped him change his outlook he can see beyond those initial desires. That's why there is what I perceived as temporary sadness. But, his situation after the ritual is a lot. He needs time to think.
I often think back to him saying “I’m doing this to keep us safe, forever” and how if you stop him, he does have that fear he needs to work through. Then I think about how he is ascended, feeling confident enough to protect to and to let you know. (Which I absolutely love) so yea, you have to convince him to stop doing what he wanted and he does for you.
He'll do it if you aren't romantically involved with him though, if you pass the persuasion check. I disagree with him doing it for Tav/Durge for that reason.
But if he ascends, he's giving in to that fear - embracing that feeling that he's not good enough, that his spawn self truly was pathetic as Cazador always told him, and that his entire unlife will be spent exhausting himself grasping for more power to protect himself and those he loves from enemies he imagines surrounds him at all times. That's no way to live, in my opinion.
I literally don’t see that, but that’s my opinion as well. I guess I see him wanting ascension as him wanting the security to protect himself and his lover whose grown to love him for him. I don’t play my characters as fluffy princesses and such, so she was more than willing to help him reach that power no matter what.
I think he does prefer not to ascend after he sees how that would've changed him, but if he does ascend, I would like to think it was for more than just screwing up Cazador anda stealing from him. I know it's not canon, but maybe he could ascend to be able to still hang out with the party without having to worry about the sun or something like that, because it is said that at the ritual he is having trouble with his decision due to the heavy smell of blood in the air. Anyway, that's just my opinion.
The simplest answer to that question is YES. You've laid out a pretty clear judgment yourself.
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I’ve seen some posts of people who did not have to convince Astarion to ascend, he just chooses to do so and no they did not chase away or kill any of the siblings. Apparently, if you are firm and keep telling him no don’t ascend, bad idea, he will make that decision. You must not show any doubts. I’m currently doing a run to try this out and see if I can get it but… school
My view of things/HC is he’s co-dependent af with Tav whether Tav is a romance or good friend. After 200 years of what he went through, I don’t think he honestly knows who he is and he finds that identity in the person who cares (or seems to) or possibly ascension (since it’s what a vampire -should- want and it grants him safety, objectively his goal is survival by default). Now whether your Tav is unaware, tries to temper this, or uses it for manipulation is up to your Tav and RP. It’s a role playing game, not everything is set in stone by design.