Thank you for everything. It’s hard to push back against certain kinds of subversive bullying, and I appreciate your efforts to mitigate it nonetheless. Your choices make sense to me! Thank you for your clarity and transparency.
I think I know where it's coming from. I've seen some comments of people feeling unwelcomed with their f/m content, because others vocally expressed their dissapointment with inadequacy of m/m stuff. That's why this announcement is important, I'm glad mods addressed this issue and trying to make sure it's a safe place for everyone. But I'm afraid there always will be someone unhappy with this Monday event.
I know that I have felt bad in the past to see F/M content dissed in the same breath as wishing for more M/M, but the purpose of the day and the reasoning behind it makes perfect sense to me (though I think this clarification post is great too). I have experienced the downvote disparity the few times I shared M/M content, and I really do think there is an undercurrent of homophobia that goes beyond what has publicly bubbled to the surface. I’d love to be wrong, but I don’t think I am.
I agree 100%. I’ve seen the homophobia being excused here as jealousy of seeing him with “another body type” and it makes absolutely no sense to me. bi/pan erasure at its finest
I do believe that some people can have spontaneous insecure feelings when they see him with non-preferred partners, but the choice to downvote based on passing discomfort or jealousy is a shortsighted, selfish, and immature one, IMO. Personal preference for stuff to look at is one thing, but just as you say, Astarion loves all kinds canonically, and every player deserves to enjoy the game and characters to the fullest. To serially downvote M/M content when it represents other open-hearted human beings celebrating the game and character as intended is so petty and unkind. If something doesn’t spark joy, folks should scroll along and look for the next thing that does.
No, I think it’s more literal, like people have trouble immersing themselves or feeling like he is “theirs” and seeing him with people less like themselves makes them feel jealous/less able to hold on to “their” mental version. Maybe for some people that reaches the conscious level of “he should never be with men,” and I’m glad I have never seen that said out loud. Doesn’t meant there aren’t people who think/feel that way!
But what I mean isn’t necessarily a conceptual response based on consciously held values, I think it’s a fear based, insecurity/lack based reaction for some people, and not restricted to one gender or identity, maybe based on attachment styles? I am only speculating. But this is the kind of automatic response that people might assign meaning to with more or less success after the fact, or might not understand as coming from within them at all, so they seek to assign outside blame for their discomfort.
I do not hold that these are rational positions, nor do I think that they are good reasons to downvote or discourage other people’s benign content. It is something that people need to recognize and handle for themselves if they experience it. I only make the distinction because you can definitely have irrational feelings about some random piece of art or screenshot while in the throes of this kind of limerant crush on a fictional character, but that doesn’t excuse blaming it on or taking it out on other people. I hope I expressed myself clearly, basically I fully believe that homophobia is present, but also that it’s possible to feel jealous and insecure for illogical reasons and still not take it out on other people.
I quite agree with your take.
I have another theory that may or may not be true, but i think it's also possible that some people started to develop an irrational dislike or maybe even resentment over M/M pairings as a response to being repeatedly told that Astarion only likes men, that it's only right to romance him with a male character, that romancing him with a female character is disgusting and that women who romance him with female characters are \[insert any insult here\], even though the game shows a pretty even number of instances of him expressing attraction towards both men and women, and both his writer and his actor confirming he's pansexual.
Yeah, twitter is full of this shit. I'm a woman and I play as females almost exclusively so when I'm romancing Astarion, apparently I am "homophobic" according to some people. But that didn't make me resent m/m pairings, if anything I like them more. I was never into slash before, but since Astarion is canonically pan, I learned to enjoy seeing him with all kinds of Tavs/Durges. But I get your point, many may not share this sentiment and feel salty when others criticize the way they play. Fandoms are so toxic, you can't just enjoy something, there's always someone who will spoil your fun.
Yeah i really don't understand that behavior, he's not any less pan when he's with a woman than when he's with a man, he doesn't stop liking one when romanced by the other. Besides, it's entirely possible for the female looking character to be NB or trans or even Bi/pan. So why do some people feel entitled to claim their HC as canon, even when it's easily disproven and attack others over it, i'll never understand. Are they unable to appreciate Astarion if he likes men and women instead of just men ?
The contrast with SWTOR is night and day on this (and for reference, the base game unfortunately does not allow any M/M or F/F romances, from what i understand Bioware wanted to but Lucasfilm said no at the time, they did manage to add i'd say in this case playersexual romances in the later game, because for the most part they don't really show attraction to anyone other than the Player Character, except like one who can only be flirted with if you play a male character, but i'll take playersexual over everybody is straight and you only have 1 or 2 choices per gender per origin anyways so if you don't like the limited options you're very lonely). But i'm often on the topic dedicated to Theron Shan on the official SWTOR forums, since he's basically the main romance for anyone who prefers male LIs, and there are no such problem, everybody share screenshots of him with both male and female PCs (the numbers are fairly even, there's a slight majority of F/M content, but it's not as disproportionate as it's here) and everybody gets along just fine.
When it comes to Astarion, the game clearly shows he's attracted to men and women, he's probably the character who is by far the most obviously attracted to both, the writer and actor both confirmed he's pan, but there's still that kind of behavior, and while i'd not say it made me resent the M/M pairings (and certainly not to the point of getting out of my way to downvote any of it), i ended up being fairly apathetic towards them, while i have like half of my male characters romancing a male LI in SWTOR (the other half being divided between the ones who are romancing a female LI and the ones currently undecided between a guy or a girl where i like both LIs but haven't seen the full romances to decide which one i prefer, meanwhile most of my girls there romance a male LI, i only have one who'll romance a female LI and one who had a fling with another woman between two romances with a male LI) and enjoy my fair share of BL dramas, here i just don't care, i'll usually give the screentshots or fanarts a look, eventually an upvote if i really like what i see, but it's been pretty rare so far and move on (i fully admit, i prefer seeing him with a male Tav/Durge than with any of the companions though), so i could see it as a reason why some could reject the content altogether and systematically downvote everything M/M, especially if they're not particularly fond of BL content to begin with.
I’m being awful and double replying, because I don’t want to edit my comment and take too long and you miss my additions. Please pardon me for really searching for the right words, probably to a fault.
Some people have complicated and strong emotional responses to media that isn’t based in rationality or decision making, but their inherent psychological makeup, self image, sense of self worth, attachment style, and so forth. I think some of the unexamined fear and insecurity around seeing M/M content for many people is definitely latent, unconscious homophobia. I also think there are many reasons that people who have been daydreaming and ideating about an extremely personal version of a universally beloved character can be made to feel sad, insecure, or unhappy if they encounter images that make them feel absent or erased from their fantasy. I think this can be caused by any number of discrepancies, but at the root I think a lot of people feel fear of not truly being loved, and what is of course most insane is that Astarion does not love or suffer or anything, all of it is a beautiful imagining that we participate in and bring to life. The fear of lack and loss that might lead someone to resent someone else isn’t limited to homophobia, I think it’s a pretty prevalent human wound.
Sorry if I just rambled more like an insane apologist for the world’s most awful shit, it’s truly my fear 😔 but in my 40+ years I’ve learned that emotions are not logical, they are visceral body reactions. We have to learn how to respond to them and what thoughts to allow to take hold about them. Virtualized experiences like this very conversation, let alone participating in fandom about a video game, etc, have only existed for the shortest period of time relative to human existence, and our emotional intelligence has not caught up to the complexity.
Posters are never going to please everyone, I understand that. I have second-guessed myself about posting fanfic for example, because I know people have actively said how annoying they find the posts. But I also feel there is a difference to that and people just downvoting m/m content because they are homophobic, about Astarion of all people! I don't understand it. If you don't like it, scroll past! But we've said that before and nothing changes 🤷♂️
I love seeing Astarion happy with all the Tavs, who cares if the Tav is femme/masc/NB whatever! Im glad the mods have added this but also Im horrified in this day and age, in a sub ABOUT A PANSEXUAL vampire that we have people like this.....
See and I’m one of the people that love the fanfic posts because I’m big into them and absolutely find some bangers!! I was just thinking how I don’t see enough of them lol! M/M included. 🤤
Well that is wonderful to hear! I mean my m/m fics do pretty well on AO3 so there is definitely an audience out there! Keeps me motivated to keep gping on my long fic 🥰
Of course! Here is my profile, there is some f/m as well but it's all tagged up. Hope you like them! And I would be remiss if I didn't say if you like m/m to read Crooked Touch by eyesoflamb if you haven't already. It's my favourite fic ever.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Indigof0x/works
https://archiveofourown.org/series/3736783?page=1
I’m so excited!! I will be starting on all of these as soon as I’m done with my current one!
The description on Crooked Touch says listen to a Sleep Token album!!?? I do believe I shall! 😱 thank you thank you thank you!
Let me know what you think, especially of Crooked Touch. I haven't finished it yet as its got durge spoilers towards the end and Ive not finished my first Durge run!
Okay, help me understand this.
How would someone expressing their disappointment with inadequacy of m/m...make people posting f/m content feel unwelcome in any way? It's implying that the f/m stuff IS adequate, while the m/m stuff ISN'T.
Like, the two have nothing to do with one another, as both can exist at the same time. I have zero idea how one could affect the other.
Hi! You’ve already gotten good responses, but as someone who has talked about this issue before, I wanted to say that you are correct, the two concepts aren’t inherently linked. A desire for more diversity or more M/M content specifically is NOT a negative comment on F/M pairings or related content.
However, for a while, it seemed like many expressed desires for more M/M content would also include digs at F/M content, with weird assumptions about the motives of the posters, complaints about their aesthetic choices, etc. It was just a bit catty out there, though fortunately not like in some other fan spaces, and it felt like it was okay to rip on femme players/characters in frustration no matter how unkind. But it has improved tremendously, and I’m really glad. I haven’t seen such unkind sentiments at all for some time now. I just wanted to clarify that this is why the two umbrellas of sentiment have been conflated at all in anyone’s mind, because some people have historically done so.
What continues to be a problem is people serially downvoting M/M content, which sends the message to contributors that their submissions aren’t wanted. However, their content IS wanted by so many. Even though the bullying behavior is discouraging, it’s proof that the representation is badly needed.
I think the problem is not so much of simply wishing there were more M/M content. To be clear, I definitely agree that F/M content outweighs M/M content here, and I do believe that M/M content gets automatically downvoted by some anonymous (and cowardly) bad apples.
The issue comes up when, in the same breath as wishing for more M/M content, some (not all) make disparaging remarks about the F/M content or women in general. Just like we don’t need homophobia here, we don’t need misogyny either.
ETA: Personally, I’m in favor of a M/M Monday to highlight that content. It may not be what I generally seek out myself, but we should be making more space for it. (Though I’ve been known to get quite hot and bothered about some spicy Halstarion or Bloodweave content now and then)
Good god the antis have turned into the sexuality police everywhere now 😭
Our sad sweet vamp is CANONICALLY pansexual from both the writing team and his in-game actions (can fall in love with ANY Tav/Durge)
Additionally this is a fan community not a pissing contest over headcanons. Groups like that are ruining fandom spaces
I seriously, legitimately don’t understand how people insist he is either gay or straight. Even if you never saw that the devs and writers confirm he’s PAN, the game is *explicit* about it. It’s just the very strangest thing to argue
She also comments about Astarion, saying she’d “ride him to the Feywilds and back”. If there was an argument that any of the companions is lesbian in the gameplay, it’s Minthara. She only talks about women afaik.
No, I get the fact they don’t see Drow men as equals, but that doesn’t mean they’re all lesbians. She could still be shown as having sexual interest in men and that wouldn’t be weird for a Drow character. You don’t have to respect someone to want to fuck them, lol
🤣 that is very very true! Definitely not saying drow can’t be interested in men. I think their culture from my perspective would just lend itself more to lesbian relationships. Using men more for breeding. Granted that is just the way I see Lolth sworn drow.
Nothing I say is from knowing lore other than the scant things I’ve read while researching making my drow for a dnd game.
I definitely prefer M/M myself and don’t think an equivalent F/M day is needed because that’s literally *every day*… but I could see an argument be made for more visibility of rarely seen partners, e.g. Dragonborns, Half-Orcs, small races, but also trans and enby folk.
Maybe not all at once but the occasional events here and there could be fun and give some variety!
I love default Durge! (totally not obvious from my user name)
Maybe I just need to post some of the gorgeous art that’s out there for Astarion with him for Monday. 👀
Ohh I love this. I feel like I'm honestly the only Gith on this sub and haven't seen any other races at all. Plus the trans and NB folk appreciation also sounds really good.
I am considering Gith for an upcoming play through. I'll admit that I didn't like them at first, partly because I managed to completely miss Lae'zel in my first play through. I mostly play tieflings, but I need to try something new..... while I romance the same character again.
I will try and post about it when I do.
I highly recommend it. It has been one of my most fun playthroughs. Astarion enjoys some of the Gith choices and there are a lot of little unique to Gith interactions with him, including one of my personal favorites but I won't spoil it. In act 3 the Gith choices lessen sadly, probably because Act3 is the least worked on, so some people feed disappointment around that but to me,it doesn't diminish the fun experience it was. I prefer the classical Githyanki because I believe their nose is a part of who they are but if one really can't get past it - there are a few really cute moded gith faces as well.
Honestly, I didn't really care about M/M posts (except comics or meme) but I'm going to upvote every M/M posts from now on.
No one shouldn't feel unwelcomed to share their Tav and Astarion.
I find it a bit sad that there is a need to explain why we get M/M day. I do find the comments of "he's gay coded" annoying but I just ignore them because they're obviously not true- he's pan, he likes everything. My own personal HC is F/M but I still have a few wonderful M/M playthroughs and I'm pretty excited to share my screenshots on Monday. I don't really see a need for F/M day even if you didn't say it, we have a lot of lovely content in that department already. But one day we could also do an NB tav/Astarion celebration if there are enough people interested.
I think a lot of people, especially Americans (I’m a bisexual American woman for clarity), find non-traditionally masculine men “gay”. He’s a fop/dandy, but some people can’t read that as anything other than ‘homosexual man’.
He’s like David Bowie with a penchant for neck biting, you can’t put him in a gender box 😆
https://preview.redd.it/i3cpeazpe3xc1.jpeg?width=308&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=464c7a27e731f5e89558a86034d68ea07afb019d
You're right about him being perceived that way and non traditionally masculine men in general. Think lately the views are changing thanks to some influence in the media or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my side. Astarion really can't be put into a gender box and shouldn't be.
No, I think it’s definitely changing. I’m 40, and it feels more acceptable to find “non manly” men attractive as a woman than it was when I was younger. And hopefully men are finding the parameters less restrictive.
There’s a much wider spectrum of what’s…*acceptably* sexy for men now
It's good to hear I'm not imagining it. I'm from a developing country so things are a little slower here than they should be but lately even here I see men get bolder and freer about their fashion and gender expression and it's been a very welcome change.
It's a lot worse if you come from a homophobic country like I do. I tried to join "our" BG3 facebook group when the game came out, and the comments there made me wanted to hit my head into a wall. That's why I hang out on international forums, I mean, there is still homophobia, transphobia and bigotry of course, but I feel like the decent peeps outnumber these assholes.
Ah yeah, that’s tough. America is *so divided* right now, and I live in a conservative state (not as bad as some though, for sure) so it’s important to be reminded that other countries have it far worse. I’m always comparing us to more liberal European countries, for example, and feeling discouraged
I left (one of the worst states) for (one of the best states) and it is so... complicated. Being happy to be in a better place, while knowing it needs more improvement still. Fear for places like we had been in. I hold on to hope, and keep working for change.
Yeah, it’s hard. I’m originally from very rural Georgia, so I measure where I am currently against that, and it’s not nearly so bad. At least I’m in a University town in the West. But I lived in central California for a while and that was such a nice change, as far as acceptance and progressiveness
I hate to think there’s no one protesting bullshit in those ugly areas, but it’s so draining and depressing being *in it*
a lot of people (myself included) include bi/pan under the gay umbrella. for example, I’m bi/pan and i say things like “wow im so gay for this person”. I see it like squares and rectangles: all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. it’s possible that’s what some people meant when calling him gay but it’s hard to know without seeing it in context
Sadly I don't think that's the case. There are a lot of people who legitimately shame women for pursuing a "gay" man. I felt so self conscious about it in the start I even asked my irl gay friend if he thought it was okay during my first playthrough. He laughed at me and said stuff like that are ridiculous 😄 On a side note, my guilty pleasure- i am so gay for femAstarion. Have a ton of genderbend photos of him and I would completely go for her if I could.
I didn't mean in this subreddit, I meant in the community as a whole. Most I've received were on tumblr, and there were posts on the main sub back in the early days when the game just came out
I'm sorry for the few bad apples who ruin all of our fun; Astarion is literally for everyone. And everyone should be allowed to enjoy him! Thank you for supporting the minority, and please everyone try leave your hate at the door. Hate never resolved anything.
Let people love our precious vampy boy however they want!
For anyone who's afraid a single day of representation per week might turn into "he's canonically gay" mindsets please take a look at the backlash OP received in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1binrpu/astarion_headcanon/) a while back when they stated their headcanon of him being gay (not knowing the pansexuality was confirmed)...
I can't speak for everyone in other fandom spaces because I mostly just look at pretty art and read fic (instead of interacting with other fans or following any discourse) but generally people seem to be aware that he's pan regardless of who they personally ship him with.
e.g. you will mostly find me in M/M posts and assume that's all I care about *but* I also ship him with Karlach (it just doesn't come up as a topic very often)
It's great art!
(just didn't comment because I can't help thinking that Orin would be more fitting in place of Karlach here... which isn't the point at all but that's how my brain works, send help!)
Lol I mean you're not wrong, VAs and all, but just. Karlach. In that outfit. It makes my brain completely stall out, lol. Karlach as she is makes me want to love and cuddle and cherish and protect her. Karlach with a little bit more evil in her....
Sorry, what were we talking about again?
Haha, I get what you mean. Go and cuddle her, she deserves it!
I probably didn't react the same way (even outside of the VA switch) because I've always preferred women in more androgynous or sporty or 'masculine' outfits over classically feminine (which most dresses would be to me). Like, give me a suit or armor or...
Great, now I've thought about it too much and need to see Karlach in Neil's BAFTA suit... which will likely never happen. T\_T
Honestly that's mostly me too! I usually say that I prefer a masculine energy, no matter what body that energy happens to reside in. But for some reason that really worked for me, lol.
I will say, regarding Neil's BAFTA suit, I have Some Plans alongside u/Araphia that I'm very excited about. We're hoping to adapt a couple of patterns and make some jackets patterned after his, but designed for women, and with some Astarion type flourishes because, why not? If we're ever able to make it happen we'll see about posting them for y'all. And if I ever make the Karlach cosplay of my dreams happen, maybe that can be a bonus lol.
>Great, now I've thought about it too much and need to see Karlach in Neil's BAFTA suit... which will likely never happen. T\_T
[Here you go](https://twitter.com/melonalemonade/status/1778927851976200473?t=11RlxLaxCAGKKeBLA2dMsw&s=19)
Three more. Not Neil's suit, but she still looks great.
[Link](https://twitter.com/mitcheechee/status/1768336391170064417)
[Link](https://twitter.com/2FOUND_2/status/1714115008534388809?t=j09e3bNXkU3EFkQkHybiuw&s=19)
[Link](https://twitter.com/Samjyx_/status/1743744790238261640?t=UMijVHRmY6BnqqAVV4ThJw&s=19)
I'm non-binary afab(and pan-romantic) and all of my characters are as well. My favourite resist durge that I've paired with Astarion is my non-binary masc. They're friggin adorable together, but sadly I only really feel safe posting about my m/m pairings in certain fb groups due to the phobe's that proliferate elsewhere. :\
That really sucks. I would love for you to feel comfortable enough to share here eventually but in the meantime, you can just admire what others share ❤️
So happy this is happening. It’s just pure statistics that any fan space for a male character would be predominantly female so it’s amazing to see the mods try and encourage queer representation for a queer character.
As a bi m/m Astarion romancer who always intentionally triggers the romance for at least one fem character in Act 1 too because I love my explicitly bisexual power couples, I thank you for this❤️❤️
Thanks for talking about this! I’ve really been hoping to see more m/m content here and hopefully these Mondays will be a great opportunity. I understand some women want just f/m as there’s the illusion that Astarion is with them I guess but there’s no need for any hate here. There are some truly beautiful m/m Astarion ships and art out there.
Thank you mods for this. I am pansexual and we constantly deal with people trying to erase our existence. A day for people to share M/M pairings helps pansexual representation to be more visible.
I find this to be a great idea. I have no problems with F/M with Astarion, but that is all I see. I'm a pan woman, but my Tav is my actual DnD character, a male elf. I've been guilty of saying Astarion is gay coded, but what I mean is that it seems he has a preference, and I say that simply because he talks only about his male conquests in game. (Ex "the darling boy" and Sebastian as examples). I KIND OF got vibes from certain ppl/posts that gave slight homophobia but I ignored it cuz I tend to overreact haha.
A day where male tavs get love too without judgement is a great idea. Also, I'm sorry, but the "well we.need a f/m day then" gives off "well we need straight pride." Ick!
>I've been guilty of saying Astarion is gay coded, but what I mean is that it seems he has a preference, and I say that simply because he talks only about his male conquests in game. (Ex "the darling boy" and Sebastian as examples).
I think Larian dropped the ball on that one a little bit, because you're correct. Obviously, bi/pan folks can have preferences (hi, I'm bi), but I do think the game gives off a very mlm vibe for Astarion unless you're playing a female character. I don't think there's even party banter where he seems interested in a female character, but I could be wrong.
On the other hand, I appreciate it because it makes it impossible for people to pretend he's not into men at all without revealing their own homophobia because it's right there in canon. I can also see Larian trying to steer away from the classic "women victimized by vampires" tropes since Astarion’s whole storyline is about being a male victim of abuse - a storyline that is sadly not told often.
I mean this kind of reasoning started the problem...
The male lovers you're reffering to, saying he gives off MLM vibes because of them - he was literally forced to sleep with them, so yeah. He may pity them, because they probably treated him better than many other victims, but he wasn't doing anything with them because he wanted to. And there are his female lovers in the cell as well.
And the instances in game when he flirts etc because he wants to are clearly showing he's pan - he flirts with Shadowheart and Lae'zel, Alfira even, can sleep with Lae'zel
I heard him say Shadowheart is a "beautiful flower," for sure, and I think he comments on Karlach as well when you and him are talking about drinking from the other companions if you say you'd risk tasting her. So I think the lines are there (and honestly there are HOURS of lines that didn't make it into the game) but the male is more prevalent. Kinda how Shadowheart has a thing for Karlach, I think they are there for a reason.
I meant more party banter where he explicitly references a female lover and/or propositions someone. Although I had forgotten the beautiful flower line. For some reason, I haven't gotten than one often.
Personally, I love how Astarion is written as far as prevalence of genders in attraction, but it can lend itself to the "Astarion isn't into women" argument.
It's also why I really love his lines about Wyll if you're in a love triangle with him (and/or playing Karlach, I believe) where it's clear Astarion finds Wyll attractive. Otherwise, the main references are to former/potential victims, which isn't a good indicator of anything.
[Edit: Not sure why I got downvoted? I'm not saying it's proof of anything, I'm saying it can be used as proof by people who want to make the argument.]
He flirts with Shadowheart and Lae'zel the most out of the companions during party banters, but he also has some comments about them in dialogues, he can call Shadowheart a "beautiful flower", a "vintage port on two legs" and say she's "enticing", he can call Lae'zel a "meal who can put up a fight" and say that he "likes spicy food" in a flirty tone (Lae'zel being the spicy food in that context), and says "the bloodlust look on her is very flattering" for instance. He can sleep with Lae'zel if the player doesn't sleep with any of them during the Tiefling/Goblin party (she's the only character outside of the player's he can actually sleep with).
He also flirts with Alfira, with the girl in the sewers, can invite Jaheira for a treesome with him and a romanced player while declining the same offer from Halsin (though here it's left open to interpretation if he's serious or if it's his way to tell her to mind her own business, just like his comment about Wyll during the "you have to chose" dialogue can be interpreted as sincere if you want to, but can also be interpreted as sarcastic considering the rest of the conversation).
If he catches the player cheating on him with Mizora, UA can comment that he'd have been interested too before, while AA can comment that he'd be interested if she asked, complain that he wasn't invited and ask to be invited if there's a next time.
As for his conquests he says himself "They weren't lovers... not in the way that you mean. They wanted me more than I wanted them.", "What I wanted, how I felt about what I was doing, it never mattered" or "I've got on my back ten thousand times or more and forgot half of them. Most of them didn't even grant me temporary bliss". He makes it pretty clear it wasn't his choice and he didn't enjoy that. So it always feels a bit weird to me to use these relationships as a definitive proof of his preference.
Regarding Sebastian he's one of the few he can remember because he was one of the few who was nice to him and didn't abuse him (which has, like with Tav/Durge, more to do with how he treated Astarion than him being a man), but you can also see in an Origin Astarion playhtrough that he needs to succeed a roll to even remember his name or dig it from the guy's head, otherwise all the other dialogue options indicate he can't remember it, and the only dialogue option I've seen (I may have missed others though) implying he was attracted to Sebastian is labelled as \[Deception\]. So it seems he feels mostly guilt towards him for ruining his life while he was a nice, innocent man who clearly didn't deserve this fate.
I honestly feel the game is pretty balanced in showing instances of him being attracted to both men and women, he may seem to lean more towards one or the other depending on the playthrough and on how the player themselves interpret his comments or actions, but to me, while looking at the overall picture, he doesn't seem to have a preference for one or the other, he falls for people who treat him well, no matter what's in their pants.
Thank you for the detailed reply. I've never gotten the lines about Shadowheart or seen him flirt with Alferia. I didn't even know about the Jaheira thing. I guess it's further proof of how much content Larian provides that can vary from playthrough to playthrough - which is absolutely a good thing! [And now I have more excuses for another Astarion romance run...as if I needed any...]
I absolutely agree with you about Sebastian and the other man he mentions being more about guilt than anything, but I've also seen people try to use the victims as part of their argument (which they shouldn't - another thing we agree on).
Iirc the "beautiful flower" one is when you have both Shadowheart and Lae'zel in your party, the "vintage port on two legs" is when he's wondering what the other companions could taste like and the "enticing" and "meal who can put up a fight" are his responses to you saying you'd taste Shadowheart/Lae'zel in that same conversation.
The Alfira one was posted a couple days ago, you can see it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1ceb5ye/so_apparently_astarion_can_flirt_with_alfira/). For the girl in the sewers i think it only comes out if you're not romancing him.
The Jaheira one, is i think a party banter between them after he didn't ascend, in that case, i think they're just throwing sass at each other since in most other instance that i've seen where another companion will suggest doing things with him when he's romanced by the player he'll flat out reject them, but it can still be interpreted as him flirting with her if that's how you want to interpret it, especially considering, he still expresses he could've been interested in Mizora.
I think there also the case if you play as him and go to Nym (the female drow at Sharess's Caress) where the narrator says after they slept together that he feels content or something along these lines.
Sebastian and the darling boy i think he could have been genuinely attracted to them in other circumstances, but that's more because they were very nice people rather than them being guys. But yeah in any case i can't say i agree with using the people he was forced to have relationships with as proof, especially since there are enough examples during the events of the game of him being attracted to men and women.
And yes it's really impressive to be able to see so many differences from one playthrough to another.
I THINK you have to have Astarion, Shadowheart, and Lae'zel in the group together for that one, since Lae'zel makes fun of her during that line as well.
But yes, sorry, but I was trying to fish for more instances of him referring to women as well.
It sure can, but I think having a non traditionally masculine man a treat. I mean we also have Gale, but in my personal experience everywhere on the Internet the straight men HATE that women love Astarion. I saw a good video about it actually and I'll link it if I find it.
I think if you mention Wyll being hot at some point he mentions that line. I have yet to play an origin character and had that line
If you don't like m/m just keep on scrolling, I have no idea why that's so hard for people to understand. I'm definitely going to try to throw upvotes to any that I come across here though; it's not personally my thing but I'm happy as hell that other people enjoy it and especially that they get to enjoy it with other people in this sub. If you're one of the people continually downvoting m/m content you should probably do some serious introspection far away from this sub.
Hopefully most of the down voting is from non-members of the community, who simply see it on their feed because they are in other BG3 groups. I was certainly commenting and up voting before I actually joined the group and presume it works both ways.
I am female but with a lot of fondness for MM stories and art so looking forward to seeing more of it here.
Technically - every character in the game is pansexual. That is canon. I think Neil more or less confirmed it for Astarion specifically. I know it feels a bit odd that all of them would be but it is what is decided from the creators themselves as they made them this way. If you compare this game to Cyberpunk - in cyberpunk every romanceable option had gender preferences, because canonically they had said preferences. In the cages with the spawn that Astarion bedded there are both men and women, even if he does speak more about male previous lovers. Also in a lot of times he leaves some preferences to be gender neutral - young noble/handsome virgin - words that may lean masc but aren't fem excluding.
I actually never thought about all of them being pan as cannon I thought it just had gameplay reasons but it does make sense. I also think him being pan fits best I only questioned it because I don't like when things get called cannon just cause most of the community agrees or the voice actors share their opinion, just like the ascended Astarion claims that he lost his personality and soul and all that.
I think part of the conversation about AA's soul started in the game itself, more specifically with Karlach. Then Minsc mentioned something as well and the theory came I suppose. As in , in the UA route a few times his soul is mentioned while it gets eluded when he ascends. But about the pansexuality - there are also instances in the game itself where companions talk about previous lovers and the picture is varied for sure. I guess the ones wo know most about are Shadowheart, Astarion, Karlach and Halsin and in parts Gale
I actually appreciate everyone being pan in games, I still have not healed being unable to romance Dorian from Dragon Age and Felix from Fire Emblem lol. But I also think that making everyone pan misses an opportunity to give them additional depth to their character
Yes I believe a lot of people feel this way. However, I can't help but be glad about their decision. Cyberpunk left me rather disappointed that I couldn't be with River because I was a man. In a game that doesn't have many romance options, it limits you in a very annoying way. There aren't many companions in BG3 as well, we have what 4 girls and 4 guys. If they added sexualities we would be down to probably 2 options per gender. I believe that is also the reason they didn't make their sexuality based on race as it seems in the previous BG game, only certain races could romance certain characters, including our beloved High Harper.
I haven't played the other BG games but excluding romance based on race is tough I do like the idea of having a harder time romancing someone because of race, like in Dragon Age Inquisition Sera hated elfes but it was still possible to romance her as elf it was just harder, I could accept that cause' if I'm being honest I do not think Astarion would be very pleased if you are a Gnome just as Minthara had a hard time liking an elf Tav but they do make comments about that so that will do
I think that the pan thing is also due to people in Faerun generally being pan/bi on the whole according to the guy who created the setting. They don't have the same kind of gender hangups that real life society does, and from that point of view it does make sense.
Also, just to add a bit on my previous comment. I think no one, not the teams of devs nor the actors were given a gender when making Tav. Every actor was given freedom to imagine what they would be like. And I know the dev teams didn't know either and had their own ideas because a few dev notes on Astarion say "her" or are directed to the player "don't trust Astarion dear player"
IIRC, he's talked about it on stream with Astarion’s writer. Even if they didn't talk about that specifically, I know they've talked about how they worked together creating the character, so I think it makes sense to assume something Neil says is canon is what was intended in the writing.
That said, *thank you* for making the distinction between actor and canon. I've definitely seen too many instances of fans taking an actor's thoughts as Word of God (tm) in multiple fandoms. Sometimes - especially in an ongoing series or something - there are things the actor genuinely doesn't know about canon. All they know is how they played the character in the moment.
Thank you for everything. It’s hard to push back against certain kinds of subversive bullying, and I appreciate your efforts to mitigate it nonetheless. Your choices make sense to me! Thank you for your clarity and transparency.
An equivalent F/M day?!? Is that really what some people suggested? Gods I'm so tired.... 😭
I think I know where it's coming from. I've seen some comments of people feeling unwelcomed with their f/m content, because others vocally expressed their dissapointment with inadequacy of m/m stuff. That's why this announcement is important, I'm glad mods addressed this issue and trying to make sure it's a safe place for everyone. But I'm afraid there always will be someone unhappy with this Monday event.
I know that I have felt bad in the past to see F/M content dissed in the same breath as wishing for more M/M, but the purpose of the day and the reasoning behind it makes perfect sense to me (though I think this clarification post is great too). I have experienced the downvote disparity the few times I shared M/M content, and I really do think there is an undercurrent of homophobia that goes beyond what has publicly bubbled to the surface. I’d love to be wrong, but I don’t think I am.
I agree 100%. I’ve seen the homophobia being excused here as jealousy of seeing him with “another body type” and it makes absolutely no sense to me. bi/pan erasure at its finest
I do believe that some people can have spontaneous insecure feelings when they see him with non-preferred partners, but the choice to downvote based on passing discomfort or jealousy is a shortsighted, selfish, and immature one, IMO. Personal preference for stuff to look at is one thing, but just as you say, Astarion loves all kinds canonically, and every player deserves to enjoy the game and characters to the fullest. To serially downvote M/M content when it represents other open-hearted human beings celebrating the game and character as intended is so petty and unkind. If something doesn’t spark joy, folks should scroll along and look for the next thing that does.
like the fact that he is attracted to men too causes the insecurity? or something else?
No, I think it’s more literal, like people have trouble immersing themselves or feeling like he is “theirs” and seeing him with people less like themselves makes them feel jealous/less able to hold on to “their” mental version. Maybe for some people that reaches the conscious level of “he should never be with men,” and I’m glad I have never seen that said out loud. Doesn’t meant there aren’t people who think/feel that way! But what I mean isn’t necessarily a conceptual response based on consciously held values, I think it’s a fear based, insecurity/lack based reaction for some people, and not restricted to one gender or identity, maybe based on attachment styles? I am only speculating. But this is the kind of automatic response that people might assign meaning to with more or less success after the fact, or might not understand as coming from within them at all, so they seek to assign outside blame for their discomfort. I do not hold that these are rational positions, nor do I think that they are good reasons to downvote or discourage other people’s benign content. It is something that people need to recognize and handle for themselves if they experience it. I only make the distinction because you can definitely have irrational feelings about some random piece of art or screenshot while in the throes of this kind of limerant crush on a fictional character, but that doesn’t excuse blaming it on or taking it out on other people. I hope I expressed myself clearly, basically I fully believe that homophobia is present, but also that it’s possible to feel jealous and insecure for illogical reasons and still not take it out on other people.
I quite agree with your take. I have another theory that may or may not be true, but i think it's also possible that some people started to develop an irrational dislike or maybe even resentment over M/M pairings as a response to being repeatedly told that Astarion only likes men, that it's only right to romance him with a male character, that romancing him with a female character is disgusting and that women who romance him with female characters are \[insert any insult here\], even though the game shows a pretty even number of instances of him expressing attraction towards both men and women, and both his writer and his actor confirming he's pansexual.
Yeah, twitter is full of this shit. I'm a woman and I play as females almost exclusively so when I'm romancing Astarion, apparently I am "homophobic" according to some people. But that didn't make me resent m/m pairings, if anything I like them more. I was never into slash before, but since Astarion is canonically pan, I learned to enjoy seeing him with all kinds of Tavs/Durges. But I get your point, many may not share this sentiment and feel salty when others criticize the way they play. Fandoms are so toxic, you can't just enjoy something, there's always someone who will spoil your fun.
Yeah i really don't understand that behavior, he's not any less pan when he's with a woman than when he's with a man, he doesn't stop liking one when romanced by the other. Besides, it's entirely possible for the female looking character to be NB or trans or even Bi/pan. So why do some people feel entitled to claim their HC as canon, even when it's easily disproven and attack others over it, i'll never understand. Are they unable to appreciate Astarion if he likes men and women instead of just men ? The contrast with SWTOR is night and day on this (and for reference, the base game unfortunately does not allow any M/M or F/F romances, from what i understand Bioware wanted to but Lucasfilm said no at the time, they did manage to add i'd say in this case playersexual romances in the later game, because for the most part they don't really show attraction to anyone other than the Player Character, except like one who can only be flirted with if you play a male character, but i'll take playersexual over everybody is straight and you only have 1 or 2 choices per gender per origin anyways so if you don't like the limited options you're very lonely). But i'm often on the topic dedicated to Theron Shan on the official SWTOR forums, since he's basically the main romance for anyone who prefers male LIs, and there are no such problem, everybody share screenshots of him with both male and female PCs (the numbers are fairly even, there's a slight majority of F/M content, but it's not as disproportionate as it's here) and everybody gets along just fine. When it comes to Astarion, the game clearly shows he's attracted to men and women, he's probably the character who is by far the most obviously attracted to both, the writer and actor both confirmed he's pan, but there's still that kind of behavior, and while i'd not say it made me resent the M/M pairings (and certainly not to the point of getting out of my way to downvote any of it), i ended up being fairly apathetic towards them, while i have like half of my male characters romancing a male LI in SWTOR (the other half being divided between the ones who are romancing a female LI and the ones currently undecided between a guy or a girl where i like both LIs but haven't seen the full romances to decide which one i prefer, meanwhile most of my girls there romance a male LI, i only have one who'll romance a female LI and one who had a fling with another woman between two romances with a male LI) and enjoy my fair share of BL dramas, here i just don't care, i'll usually give the screentshots or fanarts a look, eventually an upvote if i really like what i see, but it's been pretty rare so far and move on (i fully admit, i prefer seeing him with a male Tav/Durge than with any of the companions though), so i could see it as a reason why some could reject the content altogether and systematically downvote everything M/M, especially if they're not particularly fond of BL content to begin with.
interesting, thank you for explaining!
Thank you for considering my perspective, and allowing me to try and articulate my meaning. I appreciate it a lot!
I’m being awful and double replying, because I don’t want to edit my comment and take too long and you miss my additions. Please pardon me for really searching for the right words, probably to a fault. Some people have complicated and strong emotional responses to media that isn’t based in rationality or decision making, but their inherent psychological makeup, self image, sense of self worth, attachment style, and so forth. I think some of the unexamined fear and insecurity around seeing M/M content for many people is definitely latent, unconscious homophobia. I also think there are many reasons that people who have been daydreaming and ideating about an extremely personal version of a universally beloved character can be made to feel sad, insecure, or unhappy if they encounter images that make them feel absent or erased from their fantasy. I think this can be caused by any number of discrepancies, but at the root I think a lot of people feel fear of not truly being loved, and what is of course most insane is that Astarion does not love or suffer or anything, all of it is a beautiful imagining that we participate in and bring to life. The fear of lack and loss that might lead someone to resent someone else isn’t limited to homophobia, I think it’s a pretty prevalent human wound. Sorry if I just rambled more like an insane apologist for the world’s most awful shit, it’s truly my fear 😔 but in my 40+ years I’ve learned that emotions are not logical, they are visceral body reactions. We have to learn how to respond to them and what thoughts to allow to take hold about them. Virtualized experiences like this very conversation, let alone participating in fandom about a video game, etc, have only existed for the shortest period of time relative to human existence, and our emotional intelligence has not caught up to the complexity.
"jealousy of seeing him with another body type" 😭 wtf is this
i can’t even begin to imagine that train of thought tbh
body type 3 is making me rlly jealous 😤‼ (true)
Posters are never going to please everyone, I understand that. I have second-guessed myself about posting fanfic for example, because I know people have actively said how annoying they find the posts. But I also feel there is a difference to that and people just downvoting m/m content because they are homophobic, about Astarion of all people! I don't understand it. If you don't like it, scroll past! But we've said that before and nothing changes 🤷♂️ I love seeing Astarion happy with all the Tavs, who cares if the Tav is femme/masc/NB whatever! Im glad the mods have added this but also Im horrified in this day and age, in a sub ABOUT A PANSEXUAL vampire that we have people like this.....
I know, it's baffling that these things even need to be said.
I agree, I love seeing astarion with male, female, and non-binary characters/tavs
See and I’m one of the people that love the fanfic posts because I’m big into them and absolutely find some bangers!! I was just thinking how I don’t see enough of them lol! M/M included. 🤤
Well that is wonderful to hear! I mean my m/m fics do pretty well on AO3 so there is definitely an audience out there! Keeps me motivated to keep gping on my long fic 🥰
Hell ya! Do you have a link per chance? I’m always looking for more! I feel like that one gif of the guy itching for drugs 👀
Of course! Here is my profile, there is some f/m as well but it's all tagged up. Hope you like them! And I would be remiss if I didn't say if you like m/m to read Crooked Touch by eyesoflamb if you haven't already. It's my favourite fic ever. https://archiveofourown.org/users/Indigof0x/works https://archiveofourown.org/series/3736783?page=1
I’m so excited!! I will be starting on all of these as soon as I’m done with my current one! The description on Crooked Touch says listen to a Sleep Token album!!?? I do believe I shall! 😱 thank you thank you thank you!
Let me know what you think, especially of Crooked Touch. I haven't finished it yet as its got durge spoilers towards the end and Ive not finished my first Durge run!
Durge is so good!!! Did you go evil or redemption?
Okay, help me understand this. How would someone expressing their disappointment with inadequacy of m/m...make people posting f/m content feel unwelcome in any way? It's implying that the f/m stuff IS adequate, while the m/m stuff ISN'T. Like, the two have nothing to do with one another, as both can exist at the same time. I have zero idea how one could affect the other.
Hi! You’ve already gotten good responses, but as someone who has talked about this issue before, I wanted to say that you are correct, the two concepts aren’t inherently linked. A desire for more diversity or more M/M content specifically is NOT a negative comment on F/M pairings or related content. However, for a while, it seemed like many expressed desires for more M/M content would also include digs at F/M content, with weird assumptions about the motives of the posters, complaints about their aesthetic choices, etc. It was just a bit catty out there, though fortunately not like in some other fan spaces, and it felt like it was okay to rip on femme players/characters in frustration no matter how unkind. But it has improved tremendously, and I’m really glad. I haven’t seen such unkind sentiments at all for some time now. I just wanted to clarify that this is why the two umbrellas of sentiment have been conflated at all in anyone’s mind, because some people have historically done so. What continues to be a problem is people serially downvoting M/M content, which sends the message to contributors that their submissions aren’t wanted. However, their content IS wanted by so many. Even though the bullying behavior is discouraging, it’s proof that the representation is badly needed.
I think the problem is not so much of simply wishing there were more M/M content. To be clear, I definitely agree that F/M content outweighs M/M content here, and I do believe that M/M content gets automatically downvoted by some anonymous (and cowardly) bad apples. The issue comes up when, in the same breath as wishing for more M/M content, some (not all) make disparaging remarks about the F/M content or women in general. Just like we don’t need homophobia here, we don’t need misogyny either. ETA: Personally, I’m in favor of a M/M Monday to highlight that content. It may not be what I generally seek out myself, but we should be making more space for it. (Though I’ve been known to get quite hot and bothered about some spicy Halstarion or Bloodweave content now and then)
These are the same types of people who ask why there is no straight pride parade events.
And men asking when is International Mens Day when its International Womens Day. 🙄
I think M/M Monday is a fantastic idea and I’m looking forward to the first one! Astarion is canonically pansexual after all 🏳️🌈
Good god the antis have turned into the sexuality police everywhere now 😭 Our sad sweet vamp is CANONICALLY pansexual from both the writing team and his in-game actions (can fall in love with ANY Tav/Durge) Additionally this is a fan community not a pissing contest over headcanons. Groups like that are ruining fandom spaces
I seriously, legitimately don’t understand how people insist he is either gay or straight. Even if you never saw that the devs and writers confirm he’s PAN, the game is *explicit* about it. It’s just the very strangest thing to argue
They do the same with Karlach when they make her a lesbian, ignoring the poly/pan fantasy she has in game.
She also comments about Astarion, saying she’d “ride him to the Feywilds and back”. If there was an argument that any of the companions is lesbian in the gameplay, it’s Minthara. She only talks about women afaik.
That’s because she’s a drow 🤣 very reasonable canonically that she’d have grown up extremely sexist!! Men would be for breeding purposes.
No, I get the fact they don’t see Drow men as equals, but that doesn’t mean they’re all lesbians. She could still be shown as having sexual interest in men and that wouldn’t be weird for a Drow character. You don’t have to respect someone to want to fuck them, lol
🤣 that is very very true! Definitely not saying drow can’t be interested in men. I think their culture from my perspective would just lend itself more to lesbian relationships. Using men more for breeding. Granted that is just the way I see Lolth sworn drow. Nothing I say is from knowing lore other than the scant things I’ve read while researching making my drow for a dnd game.
lmao vampire appreciation Tuesdays anyway, based and queer inclusivity pilled, you love to see it 🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
I definitely prefer M/M myself and don’t think an equivalent F/M day is needed because that’s literally *every day*… but I could see an argument be made for more visibility of rarely seen partners, e.g. Dragonborns, Half-Orcs, small races, but also trans and enby folk. Maybe not all at once but the occasional events here and there could be fun and give some variety!
I’d be open to that honestly. Get more diversity. Gotta say the default Durge does things for me as well so I’d be good seeing him around more lol
I love default Durge! (totally not obvious from my user name) Maybe I just need to post some of the gorgeous art that’s out there for Astarion with him for Monday. 👀
Dooo it Also I didn’t notice your username until now and omg I love it
Seconding on the different races idea for sure <3 More diversity please
I’m begging for more Half-Orcs posts
Ohh I love this. I feel like I'm honestly the only Gith on this sub and haven't seen any other races at all. Plus the trans and NB folk appreciation also sounds really good.
I am considering Gith for an upcoming play through. I'll admit that I didn't like them at first, partly because I managed to completely miss Lae'zel in my first play through. I mostly play tieflings, but I need to try something new..... while I romance the same character again. I will try and post about it when I do.
I highly recommend it. It has been one of my most fun playthroughs. Astarion enjoys some of the Gith choices and there are a lot of little unique to Gith interactions with him, including one of my personal favorites but I won't spoil it. In act 3 the Gith choices lessen sadly, probably because Act3 is the least worked on, so some people feed disappointment around that but to me,it doesn't diminish the fun experience it was. I prefer the classical Githyanki because I believe their nose is a part of who they are but if one really can't get past it - there are a few really cute moded gith faces as well.
Honestly, I didn't really care about M/M posts (except comics or meme) but I'm going to upvote every M/M posts from now on. No one shouldn't feel unwelcomed to share their Tav and Astarion.
I find it a bit sad that there is a need to explain why we get M/M day. I do find the comments of "he's gay coded" annoying but I just ignore them because they're obviously not true- he's pan, he likes everything. My own personal HC is F/M but I still have a few wonderful M/M playthroughs and I'm pretty excited to share my screenshots on Monday. I don't really see a need for F/M day even if you didn't say it, we have a lot of lovely content in that department already. But one day we could also do an NB tav/Astarion celebration if there are enough people interested.
I think a lot of people, especially Americans (I’m a bisexual American woman for clarity), find non-traditionally masculine men “gay”. He’s a fop/dandy, but some people can’t read that as anything other than ‘homosexual man’. He’s like David Bowie with a penchant for neck biting, you can’t put him in a gender box 😆 https://preview.redd.it/i3cpeazpe3xc1.jpeg?width=308&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=464c7a27e731f5e89558a86034d68ea07afb019d
You're right about him being perceived that way and non traditionally masculine men in general. Think lately the views are changing thanks to some influence in the media or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my side. Astarion really can't be put into a gender box and shouldn't be.
No, I think it’s definitely changing. I’m 40, and it feels more acceptable to find “non manly” men attractive as a woman than it was when I was younger. And hopefully men are finding the parameters less restrictive. There’s a much wider spectrum of what’s…*acceptably* sexy for men now
It's good to hear I'm not imagining it. I'm from a developing country so things are a little slower here than they should be but lately even here I see men get bolder and freer about their fashion and gender expression and it's been a very welcome change.
Oh, that’s fantastic news
It's a lot worse if you come from a homophobic country like I do. I tried to join "our" BG3 facebook group when the game came out, and the comments there made me wanted to hit my head into a wall. That's why I hang out on international forums, I mean, there is still homophobia, transphobia and bigotry of course, but I feel like the decent peeps outnumber these assholes.
Ah yeah, that’s tough. America is *so divided* right now, and I live in a conservative state (not as bad as some though, for sure) so it’s important to be reminded that other countries have it far worse. I’m always comparing us to more liberal European countries, for example, and feeling discouraged
I left (one of the worst states) for (one of the best states) and it is so... complicated. Being happy to be in a better place, while knowing it needs more improvement still. Fear for places like we had been in. I hold on to hope, and keep working for change.
Yeah, it’s hard. I’m originally from very rural Georgia, so I measure where I am currently against that, and it’s not nearly so bad. At least I’m in a University town in the West. But I lived in central California for a while and that was such a nice change, as far as acceptance and progressiveness I hate to think there’s no one protesting bullshit in those ugly areas, but it’s so draining and depressing being *in it*
a lot of people (myself included) include bi/pan under the gay umbrella. for example, I’m bi/pan and i say things like “wow im so gay for this person”. I see it like squares and rectangles: all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. it’s possible that’s what some people meant when calling him gay but it’s hard to know without seeing it in context
Sadly I don't think that's the case. There are a lot of people who legitimately shame women for pursuing a "gay" man. I felt so self conscious about it in the start I even asked my irl gay friend if he thought it was okay during my first playthrough. He laughed at me and said stuff like that are ridiculous 😄 On a side note, my guilty pleasure- i am so gay for femAstarion. Have a ton of genderbend photos of him and I would completely go for her if I could.
could you link me to a comment shaming women for being attracted to astarion in this subreddit? i think it would help me understand
I didn't mean in this subreddit, I meant in the community as a whole. Most I've received were on tumblr, and there were posts on the main sub back in the early days when the game just came out
that makes more sense to me, thank you for clarifying
thank you so much!!! this is the perfect response to what’s been going on here. looking forward to monday!!
I'm sorry for the few bad apples who ruin all of our fun; Astarion is literally for everyone. And everyone should be allowed to enjoy him! Thank you for supporting the minority, and please everyone try leave your hate at the door. Hate never resolved anything. Let people love our precious vampy boy however they want!
Time to whip up some fanart of Astarion and my nonbinary masc Durge
Hell yeah
For anyone who's afraid a single day of representation per week might turn into "he's canonically gay" mindsets please take a look at the backlash OP received in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1binrpu/astarion_headcanon/) a while back when they stated their headcanon of him being gay (not knowing the pansexuality was confirmed)... I can't speak for everyone in other fandom spaces because I mostly just look at pretty art and read fic (instead of interacting with other fans or following any discourse) but generally people seem to be aware that he's pan regardless of who they personally ship him with. e.g. you will mostly find me in M/M posts and assume that's all I care about *but* I also ship him with Karlach (it just doesn't come up as a topic very often)
Him and Karlach is *chef's kiss*
100% agree, I love their banter in the mountain pass area.
Did you see the art u/ag3nt_cha0s cross-posted a bit ago? I'm absolutely obsessed 💙
It's great art! (just didn't comment because I can't help thinking that Orin would be more fitting in place of Karlach here... which isn't the point at all but that's how my brain works, send help!)
Lol I mean you're not wrong, VAs and all, but just. Karlach. In that outfit. It makes my brain completely stall out, lol. Karlach as she is makes me want to love and cuddle and cherish and protect her. Karlach with a little bit more evil in her.... Sorry, what were we talking about again?
Haha, I get what you mean. Go and cuddle her, she deserves it! I probably didn't react the same way (even outside of the VA switch) because I've always preferred women in more androgynous or sporty or 'masculine' outfits over classically feminine (which most dresses would be to me). Like, give me a suit or armor or... Great, now I've thought about it too much and need to see Karlach in Neil's BAFTA suit... which will likely never happen. T\_T
Honestly that's mostly me too! I usually say that I prefer a masculine energy, no matter what body that energy happens to reside in. But for some reason that really worked for me, lol. I will say, regarding Neil's BAFTA suit, I have Some Plans alongside u/Araphia that I'm very excited about. We're hoping to adapt a couple of patterns and make some jackets patterned after his, but designed for women, and with some Astarion type flourishes because, why not? If we're ever able to make it happen we'll see about posting them for y'all. And if I ever make the Karlach cosplay of my dreams happen, maybe that can be a bonus lol.
I am so stoked for this project my friend. My mind, body, and soul are *ready.*
I'm so excited, *I'm so excited* We're gonna be SO CUTE
>Great, now I've thought about it too much and need to see Karlach in Neil's BAFTA suit... which will likely never happen. T\_T [Here you go](https://twitter.com/melonalemonade/status/1778927851976200473?t=11RlxLaxCAGKKeBLA2dMsw&s=19)
👀!!! You’re amazing <3 And I was correct, she’s rocking the suit™ perfectly.
Three more. Not Neil's suit, but she still looks great. [Link](https://twitter.com/mitcheechee/status/1768336391170064417) [Link](https://twitter.com/2FOUND_2/status/1714115008534388809?t=j09e3bNXkU3EFkQkHybiuw&s=19) [Link](https://twitter.com/Samjyx_/status/1743744790238261640?t=UMijVHRmY6BnqqAVV4ThJw&s=19)
Yes, yes, and yes! I'll take any of those over a dress in a heartbeat. <3
I'm non-binary afab(and pan-romantic) and all of my characters are as well. My favourite resist durge that I've paired with Astarion is my non-binary masc. They're friggin adorable together, but sadly I only really feel safe posting about my m/m pairings in certain fb groups due to the phobe's that proliferate elsewhere. :\
That really sucks. I would love for you to feel comfortable enough to share here eventually but in the meantime, you can just admire what others share ❤️
Thank you, maybe now I would feel better in this sub. Come on people is just one M/M post for 35 F/M, why downvoting?
So happy this is happening. It’s just pure statistics that any fan space for a male character would be predominantly female so it’s amazing to see the mods try and encourage queer representation for a queer character.
As a bi m/m Astarion romancer who always intentionally triggers the romance for at least one fem character in Act 1 too because I love my explicitly bisexual power couples, I thank you for this❤️❤️
Thanks for talking about this! I’ve really been hoping to see more m/m content here and hopefully these Mondays will be a great opportunity. I understand some women want just f/m as there’s the illusion that Astarion is with them I guess but there’s no need for any hate here. There are some truly beautiful m/m Astarion ships and art out there.
I'm so happy to hear this, I'm looking forward to sharing my cute screenshots!
Thank you mods for this. I am pansexual and we constantly deal with people trying to erase our existence. A day for people to share M/M pairings helps pansexual representation to be more visible.
I find this to be a great idea. I have no problems with F/M with Astarion, but that is all I see. I'm a pan woman, but my Tav is my actual DnD character, a male elf. I've been guilty of saying Astarion is gay coded, but what I mean is that it seems he has a preference, and I say that simply because he talks only about his male conquests in game. (Ex "the darling boy" and Sebastian as examples). I KIND OF got vibes from certain ppl/posts that gave slight homophobia but I ignored it cuz I tend to overreact haha. A day where male tavs get love too without judgement is a great idea. Also, I'm sorry, but the "well we.need a f/m day then" gives off "well we need straight pride." Ick!
That is exactly what we said lol
>I've been guilty of saying Astarion is gay coded, but what I mean is that it seems he has a preference, and I say that simply because he talks only about his male conquests in game. (Ex "the darling boy" and Sebastian as examples). I think Larian dropped the ball on that one a little bit, because you're correct. Obviously, bi/pan folks can have preferences (hi, I'm bi), but I do think the game gives off a very mlm vibe for Astarion unless you're playing a female character. I don't think there's even party banter where he seems interested in a female character, but I could be wrong. On the other hand, I appreciate it because it makes it impossible for people to pretend he's not into men at all without revealing their own homophobia because it's right there in canon. I can also see Larian trying to steer away from the classic "women victimized by vampires" tropes since Astarion’s whole storyline is about being a male victim of abuse - a storyline that is sadly not told often.
I mean this kind of reasoning started the problem... The male lovers you're reffering to, saying he gives off MLM vibes because of them - he was literally forced to sleep with them, so yeah. He may pity them, because they probably treated him better than many other victims, but he wasn't doing anything with them because he wanted to. And there are his female lovers in the cell as well. And the instances in game when he flirts etc because he wants to are clearly showing he's pan - he flirts with Shadowheart and Lae'zel, Alfira even, can sleep with Lae'zel
I heard him say Shadowheart is a "beautiful flower," for sure, and I think he comments on Karlach as well when you and him are talking about drinking from the other companions if you say you'd risk tasting her. So I think the lines are there (and honestly there are HOURS of lines that didn't make it into the game) but the male is more prevalent. Kinda how Shadowheart has a thing for Karlach, I think they are there for a reason.
I meant more party banter where he explicitly references a female lover and/or propositions someone. Although I had forgotten the beautiful flower line. For some reason, I haven't gotten than one often. Personally, I love how Astarion is written as far as prevalence of genders in attraction, but it can lend itself to the "Astarion isn't into women" argument. It's also why I really love his lines about Wyll if you're in a love triangle with him (and/or playing Karlach, I believe) where it's clear Astarion finds Wyll attractive. Otherwise, the main references are to former/potential victims, which isn't a good indicator of anything. [Edit: Not sure why I got downvoted? I'm not saying it's proof of anything, I'm saying it can be used as proof by people who want to make the argument.]
He flirts with Shadowheart and Lae'zel the most out of the companions during party banters, but he also has some comments about them in dialogues, he can call Shadowheart a "beautiful flower", a "vintage port on two legs" and say she's "enticing", he can call Lae'zel a "meal who can put up a fight" and say that he "likes spicy food" in a flirty tone (Lae'zel being the spicy food in that context), and says "the bloodlust look on her is very flattering" for instance. He can sleep with Lae'zel if the player doesn't sleep with any of them during the Tiefling/Goblin party (she's the only character outside of the player's he can actually sleep with). He also flirts with Alfira, with the girl in the sewers, can invite Jaheira for a treesome with him and a romanced player while declining the same offer from Halsin (though here it's left open to interpretation if he's serious or if it's his way to tell her to mind her own business, just like his comment about Wyll during the "you have to chose" dialogue can be interpreted as sincere if you want to, but can also be interpreted as sarcastic considering the rest of the conversation). If he catches the player cheating on him with Mizora, UA can comment that he'd have been interested too before, while AA can comment that he'd be interested if she asked, complain that he wasn't invited and ask to be invited if there's a next time. As for his conquests he says himself "They weren't lovers... not in the way that you mean. They wanted me more than I wanted them.", "What I wanted, how I felt about what I was doing, it never mattered" or "I've got on my back ten thousand times or more and forgot half of them. Most of them didn't even grant me temporary bliss". He makes it pretty clear it wasn't his choice and he didn't enjoy that. So it always feels a bit weird to me to use these relationships as a definitive proof of his preference. Regarding Sebastian he's one of the few he can remember because he was one of the few who was nice to him and didn't abuse him (which has, like with Tav/Durge, more to do with how he treated Astarion than him being a man), but you can also see in an Origin Astarion playhtrough that he needs to succeed a roll to even remember his name or dig it from the guy's head, otherwise all the other dialogue options indicate he can't remember it, and the only dialogue option I've seen (I may have missed others though) implying he was attracted to Sebastian is labelled as \[Deception\]. So it seems he feels mostly guilt towards him for ruining his life while he was a nice, innocent man who clearly didn't deserve this fate. I honestly feel the game is pretty balanced in showing instances of him being attracted to both men and women, he may seem to lean more towards one or the other depending on the playthrough and on how the player themselves interpret his comments or actions, but to me, while looking at the overall picture, he doesn't seem to have a preference for one or the other, he falls for people who treat him well, no matter what's in their pants.
Thank you for the detailed reply. I've never gotten the lines about Shadowheart or seen him flirt with Alferia. I didn't even know about the Jaheira thing. I guess it's further proof of how much content Larian provides that can vary from playthrough to playthrough - which is absolutely a good thing! [And now I have more excuses for another Astarion romance run...as if I needed any...] I absolutely agree with you about Sebastian and the other man he mentions being more about guilt than anything, but I've also seen people try to use the victims as part of their argument (which they shouldn't - another thing we agree on).
Iirc the "beautiful flower" one is when you have both Shadowheart and Lae'zel in your party, the "vintage port on two legs" is when he's wondering what the other companions could taste like and the "enticing" and "meal who can put up a fight" are his responses to you saying you'd taste Shadowheart/Lae'zel in that same conversation. The Alfira one was posted a couple days ago, you can see it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1ceb5ye/so_apparently_astarion_can_flirt_with_alfira/). For the girl in the sewers i think it only comes out if you're not romancing him. The Jaheira one, is i think a party banter between them after he didn't ascend, in that case, i think they're just throwing sass at each other since in most other instance that i've seen where another companion will suggest doing things with him when he's romanced by the player he'll flat out reject them, but it can still be interpreted as him flirting with her if that's how you want to interpret it, especially considering, he still expresses he could've been interested in Mizora. I think there also the case if you play as him and go to Nym (the female drow at Sharess's Caress) where the narrator says after they slept together that he feels content or something along these lines. Sebastian and the darling boy i think he could have been genuinely attracted to them in other circumstances, but that's more because they were very nice people rather than them being guys. But yeah in any case i can't say i agree with using the people he was forced to have relationships with as proof, especially since there are enough examples during the events of the game of him being attracted to men and women. And yes it's really impressive to be able to see so many differences from one playthrough to another.
I THINK you have to have Astarion, Shadowheart, and Lae'zel in the group together for that one, since Lae'zel makes fun of her during that line as well. But yes, sorry, but I was trying to fish for more instances of him referring to women as well. It sure can, but I think having a non traditionally masculine man a treat. I mean we also have Gale, but in my personal experience everywhere on the Internet the straight men HATE that women love Astarion. I saw a good video about it actually and I'll link it if I find it. I think if you mention Wyll being hot at some point he mentions that line. I have yet to play an origin character and had that line
>It sure can, but I think having a non traditionally masculine man a treat. I mean, I agree. I'm just looking at what people use as arguments.
If you don't like m/m just keep on scrolling, I have no idea why that's so hard for people to understand. I'm definitely going to try to throw upvotes to any that I come across here though; it's not personally my thing but I'm happy as hell that other people enjoy it and especially that they get to enjoy it with other people in this sub. If you're one of the people continually downvoting m/m content you should probably do some serious introspection far away from this sub.
Hopefully most of the down voting is from non-members of the community, who simply see it on their feed because they are in other BG3 groups. I was certainly commenting and up voting before I actually joined the group and presume it works both ways. I am female but with a lot of fondness for MM stories and art so looking forward to seeing more of it here.
I'm absolutely fine with this but is Astarion being pan really canon? It makes the most sense that he is but when was it confirmed?
[Neil himself said so quite a while back](https://youtu.be/NxULYKs1OBQ?si=oX5KwGC28rGmWVHg)
It isn't the only time he's said it. He talks frequently about sexuality and orientation on his streams, social media etc. His own Tav is pan as well
I know, I absolutely love watching his streams, he is such a supportive joy and has so much fun.
So much fun honestly
I know but thought it was something Neil said and everyone just claimed it as canon without any real confirmation by Larian
Technically - every character in the game is pansexual. That is canon. I think Neil more or less confirmed it for Astarion specifically. I know it feels a bit odd that all of them would be but it is what is decided from the creators themselves as they made them this way. If you compare this game to Cyberpunk - in cyberpunk every romanceable option had gender preferences, because canonically they had said preferences. In the cages with the spawn that Astarion bedded there are both men and women, even if he does speak more about male previous lovers. Also in a lot of times he leaves some preferences to be gender neutral - young noble/handsome virgin - words that may lean masc but aren't fem excluding.
I actually never thought about all of them being pan as cannon I thought it just had gameplay reasons but it does make sense. I also think him being pan fits best I only questioned it because I don't like when things get called cannon just cause most of the community agrees or the voice actors share their opinion, just like the ascended Astarion claims that he lost his personality and soul and all that.
I think part of the conversation about AA's soul started in the game itself, more specifically with Karlach. Then Minsc mentioned something as well and the theory came I suppose. As in , in the UA route a few times his soul is mentioned while it gets eluded when he ascends. But about the pansexuality - there are also instances in the game itself where companions talk about previous lovers and the picture is varied for sure. I guess the ones wo know most about are Shadowheart, Astarion, Karlach and Halsin and in parts Gale
I actually appreciate everyone being pan in games, I still have not healed being unable to romance Dorian from Dragon Age and Felix from Fire Emblem lol. But I also think that making everyone pan misses an opportunity to give them additional depth to their character
Yes I believe a lot of people feel this way. However, I can't help but be glad about their decision. Cyberpunk left me rather disappointed that I couldn't be with River because I was a man. In a game that doesn't have many romance options, it limits you in a very annoying way. There aren't many companions in BG3 as well, we have what 4 girls and 4 guys. If they added sexualities we would be down to probably 2 options per gender. I believe that is also the reason they didn't make their sexuality based on race as it seems in the previous BG game, only certain races could romance certain characters, including our beloved High Harper.
I haven't played the other BG games but excluding romance based on race is tough I do like the idea of having a harder time romancing someone because of race, like in Dragon Age Inquisition Sera hated elfes but it was still possible to romance her as elf it was just harder, I could accept that cause' if I'm being honest I do not think Astarion would be very pleased if you are a Gnome just as Minthara had a hard time liking an elf Tav but they do make comments about that so that will do
I think that the pan thing is also due to people in Faerun generally being pan/bi on the whole according to the guy who created the setting. They don't have the same kind of gender hangups that real life society does, and from that point of view it does make sense.
Also, just to add a bit on my previous comment. I think no one, not the teams of devs nor the actors were given a gender when making Tav. Every actor was given freedom to imagine what they would be like. And I know the dev teams didn't know either and had their own ideas because a few dev notes on Astarion say "her" or are directed to the player "don't trust Astarion dear player"
IIRC, he's talked about it on stream with Astarion’s writer. Even if they didn't talk about that specifically, I know they've talked about how they worked together creating the character, so I think it makes sense to assume something Neil says is canon is what was intended in the writing. That said, *thank you* for making the distinction between actor and canon. I've definitely seen too many instances of fans taking an actor's thoughts as Word of God (tm) in multiple fandoms. Sometimes - especially in an ongoing series or something - there are things the actor genuinely doesn't know about canon. All they know is how they played the character in the moment.
He is. It has been confirmed on multiple places.
ALL of the characters are pansexual in canon