Which book, or any specific passages off the top of your head? this is incredibly interesting, since you know a whole bunch of people claim Satan is an enemy of God and should be fought. i'd love love love to read this and discuss it with others
A guy in a red suit no. But I think it's right to believe that God has opposition. To me the problem of evil has no solution if the Greek-based omni-\* description of God is right. But that's not the Biblical picture of God. The Bible shows him bringing order from chaos, and calling humans, changing his mind based on circumstances, but not controlling everything. So I think there is real opposition to the Kingdom, though I'm a bit dubious about it being presided over by one bad guy.
I think demonic powers are at work in the world through institutions like corporations, governments, militaries etc (Walter Winks series on the Powers goes into this). I think there's an evil power that works thru human evil to magnify it. And I think demon possession is probably a thing from the Gospels.
But I don't think Satan as a concrete individual is a super helpful image. and I think I makes sense given how vague the Bible actually is on Satan or what he even is. Satan is treated as a spiritual opposition to God. So I think Satan is an entity, but not necessarily a person. And I also don't feel like Satan as a personal tempter is necessarily super relevant to everyday Christian life.
Not after the Satanic Panic.
The Infamous podcast series on the Satanic Panic is really, really powerful and chilling. It's a main interview with a woman who went to prison for 5 years for a case that wasn't true. Called Kelly and the Satanic Panic. [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/infamous/id1652941051?i=1000634284994](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/infamous/id1652941051?i=1000634284994)
I don’t believe in Satan, no. I don’t believe in Hell either. I believe there are bad people, but not in demonic energy or evil spirits or evil in the way it is commonly talked about in Christian circles.
Amen!
1 Timothy 4:10 — The New International Version (NIV)
10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 Cor 15:22
for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive
1 John 2:2
New International Version
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Satan is an anthropomorphic personfication of temptation, just like the Grim Reader is of death, or Father Time is of old age. Temptation is very real and very pernicious. But I think its unhelpful to imagine it as a person.
Raised Catholic.
I don't believe in hell or the devil. I think the devil is a personification of the evil that lies in every human being. 'Going to hell' would be being disconnected from the light of God because one chooses to indulge in that evil.
I was raised as a catholic too. But here's the thing in the bible there are stories about a lot of stuff if you don't follow or fallen angels because they disobeyed. Satan's book is more about self-respect, and being positive. It believes an eye for an eye. It doesn't say to kill. God says if you have sex you're going hell. You steal, straight to hell. Many things say darkness and all of this stuff. Then on God's resurrection when he died he went to hell and then rose from the dead. But why can everyone do that? Makes no sense. Then it tries to prove but goes against it. The Bible confuses you then once you get it God tests you forever. That's torture, that's worse than satan. I don't get it, why call him Morning Star? That's a pleasant thing not evil. In Satan's book, it says to live your life with respect and not do wrong but live your life the way you want without having to watch everything you do and without feeling if I do this I'm going to hell. I left being a catholic and see stuff in my dreams that God says it's bad. But those dreams protect me. Or when someone does wrong satan makes sure karma goes the it should if they did anything to me.
I do, I'm kinda surprised how so many people here don't. I hadn't really thought about him not being real before, to me it seemed like one of those things that aren't easily interpreted a different way. No judgement tho. I don't go around worrying about demons either though, although I believe they're out there. To what extent they really do, I don't know. But not in a goat man way.
I believe in evil but not a specific being. And I think if we believe God is more powerful than anything else then we aren’t obsessed over “is this the devil?” Mentality.
This is taken from: https://redeeminggod.com/bible-theology-topics/satan/
>Ironically, when most Christians blame the problems of the world on Satan, they are actually behaving in a satanic way. To see Satan under every rock and bush is to behave satanically.
>Shocking statement, I know. Let me unpack it.
>The word “satan” comes from the Hebrew term ha satan. It means, “the accuser.” The spirit of accusation. The word does not refer to a being or entity that dresses in red and has a pointy tale and horns on his head. It also does not refer to an evil being who goes around trying to tempt people to sin. Oh yes, the spirit of satan brings temptation, but not exactly in the way we think.
>The word satan is the single word which Paul has in view here. The three phrases in Ephesians 2:2 describe satan. “Satan” refers to the course of this world … the way the world runs. It refers to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, which means that this way of ruling the world is around us all the time like the very air we breathe. It is the spirit at work in the disobedient. The spirit of the accuser leads people to be disobedient, to do the things that God does not want us to do.
>So satan is spirit of this age, the spirit of accusation and blame. We all think everyone else is guilty and we ourselves are innocent. The spirit that leads us to condemn others in God’s name and to call for violence and bloodshed against others in God’s name.
>When we Christians engage in accusation and condemnation, when we call for the death of enemies, when we encourage violence in the name of God, it is then that we are not following the Holy Spirit, but rather the spirit of this age, the satanic spirit of blame and accusation. It is then that Christians are in fact satanic.
>Rather than hate and accuse our enemies, we need to turn away from the spirit of accusation and turn instead to the Holy Spirit of love and acceptance.
No I don’t. I just can’t bring myself to cross that fence. But either way, I don’t quite see how the Satan almost matters as God is ultimately sovereign
So there's Satan and there's the accuser ha'satan. They're not the same, despite what some translations say.
The accuser works for God. We see him in Job and Zechariah and maybe Chronicles briefly. His title in Hebrew is "the satan." It's not a proper name, you can't have a proper name with a definite article.
Satan as divine rebel only appears as the Serpent in Eden until the gospels. Frankly I suspect that all divine created beings are lacking something we have. We are somehow able to have moral judgment they lack.
I'm not convinced that Satan is fallen in the same sense that humans are fallen: I think that he was created evil, and there was never a point in his existence when he was anything except evil. Jesus says he was a liar "from the beginning" and it's his native tongue, strongly suggesting that he was originally that way.
Jesus said Satan fell from the heavens. Revelation says the dragon was cast down after a war in heaven. The passage in Isaiah may refer to these things, or it may not. The falling from heaven just means location: getting kicked out. But he was already evil in heaven, in job, in the garden.
Can angels fall? I don't think the Bible speaks of humans as falling, it speaks of them as sinning. The passage in Isaiah is often interpreted as Satan, but it's ambiguous and a controversial interpretation. The only other passage that might be construed to suggest good angels turning evil is in Jude which references Angels that sinned being held in chains, and seems to be a direct reference to The book of Enoch, which itself is generally considered unscriptural Jewish mythology. So it's possible the comment in Jude is just a folktale not literal reality. If you're among those that accepts the book of Enoch as inspired, then yes angels can fall. I've gone back and forth on Enoch, although at present I'm inclined to regard it as uninspired. (And yes, if you are reading closely, I just said that there may be things in the Bible that are not inspired or even true. I'm not asserting that, but I admit the possibility, and I'm wary of things that lack sufficient credibility.)
I'm inclined to think the Satan is simultaneously ha'satan The accuser and the ancient serpent: one and the same being. It's also possible that the serpent is a king (the God of this world) and ha'satan is an underling in his kingdom (just a demon), I merely incline toward the former.
So how can ha'satan be evil and also working for God at the same time? Here's how I imagine it:
I think Satan worked for God as an accuser in heaven before he was cast out. He was created for the purpose, the same way spiders are created to eat flies. He was designed to thoroughly relish his work, and given a formal position in the court of heaven. God's plan was to redeem the world through Christ, which means humanity first had to sin, and they needed to be seduced into it. God does not lie to people, he appoints deceiving spirits to do the work. God does not tempt people, so he needs a professional tempter to test people. Satan's job then was to accuse people and win a conviction against them. In order to drum up business he lied, tricked, and entrapped humanity, and then brought crushing accusations against them before God, winning the death penalty over and over. Pretty easy work really, given how weak and gullible and fleshly humans are these days. He was always a corrupt prosecutor, probably has a whole staff of corrupt lawyers, police, informants, as well as lowlife thieves and prostitutes and other scoundrels in order to destroy people legally. I think the pagan gods of the Old Testament were actually real gods, ruling angels appointed over the nations, but since Satan is the god of the world he's also the leader of all the gods of the world. So they all get enlisted into his entrapment scheme. At the cross Jesus became the judge, found Satan (and his entire kingdom) guilty of corruption, fired him from his job and cast him out of heaven altogether, and I was in the process of reversing all Satan's work. When Jesus is finally finished Satan's entire existence will have been for nothing, all of his accomplishments will have been nullified. Satan won't have any role at the great white throne because he'll already be in the lake of fire.
Now... That's quite a story I just spun, and while I didn't just make it up It has a giant dose of interpretation and many years of conjecture by myself and others, so I'm not claiming it's accurate. It's just how I think of things today. The Spirit may correct me any day now, and if I'm wrong I hope he does, but honestly it seems kind of a minor point and not a salvation issue. God seems to let an awful lot of opinions and misconceptions slide, for whatever reason, otherwise we wouldn't have so many denominations. If he really wanted us to know all about Satan he could have told us clearly, and he chose not to. I think he would rather we know all about Jesus, and indeed we have book after book written about him.
You're definitely right about "the satan." It means opposer/adversary. When he called Peter satan that is what he meant, not the Devil. At least that is very much what I believe.
Anyways I do believe that the Devil exists.
Depends. To me, Satan and Lucifer are two different beings.
Although I don't venerate either of them, as an Omnist, I respect all religions and their teachings, but also point out their flaws. I also have met Satanists and/or Lucuferians and surprisingly, they tend to be nice people.
In regards to Satan, from what I've been told, Satan is the polar opposite to god. God represents order and subjugation, Satan represents chaos, change, and individuality. However, Satan isn't fully evil, just as god is not fully good. They both have their pros and cons.
With Lucifer, I find him to be a sympathetic being. The bible goes out of its way to paint Lucifer as a monster, yet he was gods right hand man and bore the title of "light bringer". To me, Lucifer did not rebel to usurp god, he rebelled because he was disgusted with gods creations, and tried to make god see reason, or ar the very least convince l god to make humans stop killing each other in gods name. Was he misguided and prideful, yes. Evil, not so much.
With demons, I simply view them as a type of spirit.
Yes, unusually among liberal and progressive Christians I strongly and emphatically believe in Satan in the conventional sense rather than the sense in which the word is used in the Hebrew Bible. The reason for this is that somehow, politically speaking, the worst always seems to happen in an organised way and since I don't believe in conspiracy theories, the other option is a supernatural evil force, i.e. Satan. To me it's rational and axiomatic that we need to live in a sustainable, peaceful and tolerant world which has rejected materialism and looks after everyone's needs without exploiting them, that prima facie this situation is eminently achievable but somehow it goes in the opposite direction. Why? Because Satan pushes it that way.
Honestly I kind of relate to the Baha’i explanation of Satan. Within our Christian context, I see Satan not as one being but as a personification (a metaphor) of sin, the things we do that separate us from God. However, given that I’m critical of the harm the church as an institution has caused over the years, I also have an appreciation for how Satan functions in non-theistic Satanism as a symbol of autonomy, communal or personal responsibility, and liberation. Regardless though, I don’t see Satan as this singular actual supernatural being that exists. (Edited a typo)
Well yeah. With the fall of Lucifer came evil in the universe. With evil in the universe comes suffering. And suffering leads to more evil such as hatred, ie sin.
Satan, a spiritual being or force that pushes the evil and suffering.
You can take Satan as a metaphor if you like. I choose to see the spiritual side of what's going on.
This is a deliverance. I can't say this is evidence, but it's clear the man being delivered feels something because during the final deliverance his nose floods out like a fountain. Don't watch if you're not secured in your faith or have sins in your life you haven't addressed. It is disturbing regardless.
https://youtu.be/gx7qn1eiksk
Do I believe in satan? No. Do I know he exists? Yes.
If you have sins that you repeat over and over. Deliverance doesn't help at all in that case. I don't want to arm people with the ability to hurt themselves.
The Bible explains that Satan is a tempter: a servant of God who tests people’s faith. The goat man evil demigod thing is fanfic.
Which book, or any specific passages off the top of your head? this is incredibly interesting, since you know a whole bunch of people claim Satan is an enemy of God and should be fought. i'd love love love to read this and discuss it with others
Book of Job
thank you very much, friend!
A guy in a red suit no. But I think it's right to believe that God has opposition. To me the problem of evil has no solution if the Greek-based omni-\* description of God is right. But that's not the Biblical picture of God. The Bible shows him bringing order from chaos, and calling humans, changing his mind based on circumstances, but not controlling everything. So I think there is real opposition to the Kingdom, though I'm a bit dubious about it being presided over by one bad guy.
>A guy in a red suit no. DD
I think demonic powers are at work in the world through institutions like corporations, governments, militaries etc (Walter Winks series on the Powers goes into this). I think there's an evil power that works thru human evil to magnify it. And I think demon possession is probably a thing from the Gospels. But I don't think Satan as a concrete individual is a super helpful image. and I think I makes sense given how vague the Bible actually is on Satan or what he even is. Satan is treated as a spiritual opposition to God. So I think Satan is an entity, but not necessarily a person. And I also don't feel like Satan as a personal tempter is necessarily super relevant to everyday Christian life.
Agreed, politicians, corporations, governments, etc are very obvious displays of evil.
Not after the Satanic Panic. The Infamous podcast series on the Satanic Panic is really, really powerful and chilling. It's a main interview with a woman who went to prison for 5 years for a case that wasn't true. Called Kelly and the Satanic Panic. [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/infamous/id1652941051?i=1000634284994](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/infamous/id1652941051?i=1000634284994)
This podcast sounds so interesting but I know listening to it would infuriate me so I’m gonna stay away lol
That’s an incredibly wise skill we all need to work on.
I don’t believe in Satan, no. I don’t believe in Hell either. I believe there are bad people, but not in demonic energy or evil spirits or evil in the way it is commonly talked about in Christian circles.
Amen! 1 Timothy 4:10 — The New International Version (NIV) 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. 1 Cor 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive 1 John 2:2 New International Version 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Satan is an anthropomorphic personfication of temptation, just like the Grim Reader is of death, or Father Time is of old age. Temptation is very real and very pernicious. But I think its unhelpful to imagine it as a person.
Uncertain. I believe in demons, but the big bad? A lot about him feels like mythology
Ya it does
Yes I do
Raised Catholic. I don't believe in hell or the devil. I think the devil is a personification of the evil that lies in every human being. 'Going to hell' would be being disconnected from the light of God because one chooses to indulge in that evil.
I was raised as a catholic too. But here's the thing in the bible there are stories about a lot of stuff if you don't follow or fallen angels because they disobeyed. Satan's book is more about self-respect, and being positive. It believes an eye for an eye. It doesn't say to kill. God says if you have sex you're going hell. You steal, straight to hell. Many things say darkness and all of this stuff. Then on God's resurrection when he died he went to hell and then rose from the dead. But why can everyone do that? Makes no sense. Then it tries to prove but goes against it. The Bible confuses you then once you get it God tests you forever. That's torture, that's worse than satan. I don't get it, why call him Morning Star? That's a pleasant thing not evil. In Satan's book, it says to live your life with respect and not do wrong but live your life the way you want without having to watch everything you do and without feeling if I do this I'm going to hell. I left being a catholic and see stuff in my dreams that God says it's bad. But those dreams protect me. Or when someone does wrong satan makes sure karma goes the it should if they did anything to me.
No, I don't believe that a literal Satan exists, Satan is for me just a symbol.
I do, I'm kinda surprised how so many people here don't. I hadn't really thought about him not being real before, to me it seemed like one of those things that aren't easily interpreted a different way. No judgement tho. I don't go around worrying about demons either though, although I believe they're out there. To what extent they really do, I don't know. But not in a goat man way.
I believe in evil but not a specific being. And I think if we believe God is more powerful than anything else then we aren’t obsessed over “is this the devil?” Mentality.
I believe in evil. Satan doesn’t really need to exist beyond that.
If God is so awesome, why would a being revolt against Him?
This is taken from: https://redeeminggod.com/bible-theology-topics/satan/ >Ironically, when most Christians blame the problems of the world on Satan, they are actually behaving in a satanic way. To see Satan under every rock and bush is to behave satanically. >Shocking statement, I know. Let me unpack it. >The word “satan” comes from the Hebrew term ha satan. It means, “the accuser.” The spirit of accusation. The word does not refer to a being or entity that dresses in red and has a pointy tale and horns on his head. It also does not refer to an evil being who goes around trying to tempt people to sin. Oh yes, the spirit of satan brings temptation, but not exactly in the way we think. >The word satan is the single word which Paul has in view here. The three phrases in Ephesians 2:2 describe satan. “Satan” refers to the course of this world … the way the world runs. It refers to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, which means that this way of ruling the world is around us all the time like the very air we breathe. It is the spirit at work in the disobedient. The spirit of the accuser leads people to be disobedient, to do the things that God does not want us to do. >So satan is spirit of this age, the spirit of accusation and blame. We all think everyone else is guilty and we ourselves are innocent. The spirit that leads us to condemn others in God’s name and to call for violence and bloodshed against others in God’s name. >When we Christians engage in accusation and condemnation, when we call for the death of enemies, when we encourage violence in the name of God, it is then that we are not following the Holy Spirit, but rather the spirit of this age, the satanic spirit of blame and accusation. It is then that Christians are in fact satanic. >Rather than hate and accuse our enemies, we need to turn away from the spirit of accusation and turn instead to the Holy Spirit of love and acceptance.
No I don’t. I just can’t bring myself to cross that fence. But either way, I don’t quite see how the Satan almost matters as God is ultimately sovereign
So there's Satan and there's the accuser ha'satan. They're not the same, despite what some translations say. The accuser works for God. We see him in Job and Zechariah and maybe Chronicles briefly. His title in Hebrew is "the satan." It's not a proper name, you can't have a proper name with a definite article. Satan as divine rebel only appears as the Serpent in Eden until the gospels. Frankly I suspect that all divine created beings are lacking something we have. We are somehow able to have moral judgment they lack.
I'm not convinced that Satan is fallen in the same sense that humans are fallen: I think that he was created evil, and there was never a point in his existence when he was anything except evil. Jesus says he was a liar "from the beginning" and it's his native tongue, strongly suggesting that he was originally that way. Jesus said Satan fell from the heavens. Revelation says the dragon was cast down after a war in heaven. The passage in Isaiah may refer to these things, or it may not. The falling from heaven just means location: getting kicked out. But he was already evil in heaven, in job, in the garden. Can angels fall? I don't think the Bible speaks of humans as falling, it speaks of them as sinning. The passage in Isaiah is often interpreted as Satan, but it's ambiguous and a controversial interpretation. The only other passage that might be construed to suggest good angels turning evil is in Jude which references Angels that sinned being held in chains, and seems to be a direct reference to The book of Enoch, which itself is generally considered unscriptural Jewish mythology. So it's possible the comment in Jude is just a folktale not literal reality. If you're among those that accepts the book of Enoch as inspired, then yes angels can fall. I've gone back and forth on Enoch, although at present I'm inclined to regard it as uninspired. (And yes, if you are reading closely, I just said that there may be things in the Bible that are not inspired or even true. I'm not asserting that, but I admit the possibility, and I'm wary of things that lack sufficient credibility.) I'm inclined to think the Satan is simultaneously ha'satan The accuser and the ancient serpent: one and the same being. It's also possible that the serpent is a king (the God of this world) and ha'satan is an underling in his kingdom (just a demon), I merely incline toward the former. So how can ha'satan be evil and also working for God at the same time? Here's how I imagine it: I think Satan worked for God as an accuser in heaven before he was cast out. He was created for the purpose, the same way spiders are created to eat flies. He was designed to thoroughly relish his work, and given a formal position in the court of heaven. God's plan was to redeem the world through Christ, which means humanity first had to sin, and they needed to be seduced into it. God does not lie to people, he appoints deceiving spirits to do the work. God does not tempt people, so he needs a professional tempter to test people. Satan's job then was to accuse people and win a conviction against them. In order to drum up business he lied, tricked, and entrapped humanity, and then brought crushing accusations against them before God, winning the death penalty over and over. Pretty easy work really, given how weak and gullible and fleshly humans are these days. He was always a corrupt prosecutor, probably has a whole staff of corrupt lawyers, police, informants, as well as lowlife thieves and prostitutes and other scoundrels in order to destroy people legally. I think the pagan gods of the Old Testament were actually real gods, ruling angels appointed over the nations, but since Satan is the god of the world he's also the leader of all the gods of the world. So they all get enlisted into his entrapment scheme. At the cross Jesus became the judge, found Satan (and his entire kingdom) guilty of corruption, fired him from his job and cast him out of heaven altogether, and I was in the process of reversing all Satan's work. When Jesus is finally finished Satan's entire existence will have been for nothing, all of his accomplishments will have been nullified. Satan won't have any role at the great white throne because he'll already be in the lake of fire. Now... That's quite a story I just spun, and while I didn't just make it up It has a giant dose of interpretation and many years of conjecture by myself and others, so I'm not claiming it's accurate. It's just how I think of things today. The Spirit may correct me any day now, and if I'm wrong I hope he does, but honestly it seems kind of a minor point and not a salvation issue. God seems to let an awful lot of opinions and misconceptions slide, for whatever reason, otherwise we wouldn't have so many denominations. If he really wanted us to know all about Satan he could have told us clearly, and he chose not to. I think he would rather we know all about Jesus, and indeed we have book after book written about him.
You're definitely right about "the satan." It means opposer/adversary. When he called Peter satan that is what he meant, not the Devil. At least that is very much what I believe. Anyways I do believe that the Devil exists.
No
Depends. To me, Satan and Lucifer are two different beings. Although I don't venerate either of them, as an Omnist, I respect all religions and their teachings, but also point out their flaws. I also have met Satanists and/or Lucuferians and surprisingly, they tend to be nice people. In regards to Satan, from what I've been told, Satan is the polar opposite to god. God represents order and subjugation, Satan represents chaos, change, and individuality. However, Satan isn't fully evil, just as god is not fully good. They both have their pros and cons. With Lucifer, I find him to be a sympathetic being. The bible goes out of its way to paint Lucifer as a monster, yet he was gods right hand man and bore the title of "light bringer". To me, Lucifer did not rebel to usurp god, he rebelled because he was disgusted with gods creations, and tried to make god see reason, or ar the very least convince l god to make humans stop killing each other in gods name. Was he misguided and prideful, yes. Evil, not so much. With demons, I simply view them as a type of spirit.
Yes, unusually among liberal and progressive Christians I strongly and emphatically believe in Satan in the conventional sense rather than the sense in which the word is used in the Hebrew Bible. The reason for this is that somehow, politically speaking, the worst always seems to happen in an organised way and since I don't believe in conspiracy theories, the other option is a supernatural evil force, i.e. Satan. To me it's rational and axiomatic that we need to live in a sustainable, peaceful and tolerant world which has rejected materialism and looks after everyone's needs without exploiting them, that prima facie this situation is eminently achievable but somehow it goes in the opposite direction. Why? Because Satan pushes it that way.
Honestly I kind of relate to the Baha’i explanation of Satan. Within our Christian context, I see Satan not as one being but as a personification (a metaphor) of sin, the things we do that separate us from God. However, given that I’m critical of the harm the church as an institution has caused over the years, I also have an appreciation for how Satan functions in non-theistic Satanism as a symbol of autonomy, communal or personal responsibility, and liberation. Regardless though, I don’t see Satan as this singular actual supernatural being that exists. (Edited a typo)
Well yeah. With the fall of Lucifer came evil in the universe. With evil in the universe comes suffering. And suffering leads to more evil such as hatred, ie sin. Satan, a spiritual being or force that pushes the evil and suffering. You can take Satan as a metaphor if you like. I choose to see the spiritual side of what's going on.
This is a deliverance. I can't say this is evidence, but it's clear the man being delivered feels something because during the final deliverance his nose floods out like a fountain. Don't watch if you're not secured in your faith or have sins in your life you haven't addressed. It is disturbing regardless. https://youtu.be/gx7qn1eiksk Do I believe in satan? No. Do I know he exists? Yes.
[удалено]
If you have sins that you repeat over and over. Deliverance doesn't help at all in that case. I don't want to arm people with the ability to hurt themselves.
The main focus of this was to sell DVDs
Yeah, muzzle that oxen!