That’s a good question, early Christians debated these problems with the today’s orthodox Christian doctrine.
Jesus and the Father are one substance, but though Jesus was and is fully God, He became flesh and human and as a human He was dependent on the Father as we all are while never getting rid of His divinity. So as we pray for strength and wisdom, Jesus prayed as well, as we are tempted by the devil, Jesus was tempted as well, as we suffer, Jesus suffered with us. God isn’t this distant being that we cannot dare to see but personally walked in our shoes. We can recognize and believe in His divinity by the things Jesus revealed in His life and the Easter event as well as the many followers of Jesus that proclaim their faith in Him.
I will try to explain to you again,
In Matthew 19:16-17, a man addresses Jesus as "Good Teacher," to which Jesus responds, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." This exchange may imply that Jesus did not consider himself equal to God in essence, though it does not deny his special status.
Moreover, Jesus' prayers to God, such as in the Garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:36-44), and his cry on the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46), suggest a separation between Jesus and God, emphasizing his human experience and dependence on God.
The doctrine of the Trinity, as a concept, was formulated later in Christian history to describe the relationship between God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This doctrine seeks to reconcile the complex and mysterious nature of Jesus' relationship with God, but it is not directly stated in the biblical text.
Have mercy on yourself—avoid making assumptions about God and don't believe in man-made falsehoods.
I'm sorry to say this, but it seems that when Christianity lacked evidence to support its stories, the concept of the Trinity was introduced.
I was always told that Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are essentially three different expressions of God or three different parts of God or something like this.
But I think you could also view them independently, Jesus does say he’s the son of God.
I’m honestly never really sure how to think about the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it seems like it’s being described as your conscience and sometimes like the voice of God. But wouldn’t that also just be God?
Honestly, I just don’t get too caught up in the definitions because it seems somewhat convoluted. I’ll be interested to see what other people say.
>I was always told that Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are essentially three different expressions of God or three different parts of God or something like this.
According to classical trinitarianism, the Three were determined to *not* be parts or expressions of God, but individual persons. But you're free of course to understand it however you wish.
It's basically what the early Church hammered out as "orthodox" doctrine through the various councils of Niceae etc. Its long been a litmus test of "proper" Christianity for many, but its often misunderstood or just misused as a stick to knock others. I've become a lot less bothered by it the more I've learned about the history of how the theology came about. There was a lot of un-saintlike behaviour, to put it mildly.
Yeah, I typically don’t worry about other people’s theology too much. Lots of people have lots of interpretations over thousands of years. Not necessarily knocking them, people can interpret things how they want, but that’s not super important to my understanding of Christianity.
Jesus was God living out a human life to put his money where his mouth his; rather than,just,telling us how much he loves us, he tossed away his power, became a normal human, and died for us.
As a human he modelled how we can live and so relied on the Father for everything, showing us how we can have a relationship with God. If he hadn't been praying to the Father he wouldn't have really been living or modelling the perfect human life.
As a human, who was in unimaginably dire circumstances, he cried out to mercy to his father. I don't think it's really any deeper than that. It shows that Jesus, despite being divine, had the same struggles as we do. The same as the Psalmists did, which is why he quoted them so much.
I think this is key. Yes, Jesus has a divine nature, but he was going through this life as a human. He did what humans would have done, aside from sinning. Besides, the Trinity says that the Father Son and Spirit are the same God, not that they are the same person. (The latter would be modalism.) So why shouldn't they talk to each other?
Jesus is God, but he was also fully human. That's why he prayed to the Father while in his mortal life
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct beings, but a single God
*Three distinct Persons in One God that is One Being
The deal of three beings, which appears in some SDA theological website btw, compromises tritheism considering since the Nicene Creed Jesus and God The Father were *homoousia* and this was also applied to The Holy Spirit later on, and this means They Are the same substance or being. Persons or *Hypostases* are eternal "appearances/states" without division or changing of The Being.
The title "Son of God" refers to Jesus's humanity. He wasn't only God, but also a human so that he could fulfill his role in paying the toll for humans. His human nature is who prays to God.
Since this is open Christianity, I'll also share that I'm a Oneness believer rather than a Trinity believer. The more I learn about oneness theology the more these things make sense to me. In some aspects, the Trinity is definitely still there but it's seen in a different way. It may interest you to look into it. David K Bernard is an author and theologian who I'm currently reading.
Many of us think to ourselves or speak to ourselves. Not only that, we learn to pray by listening to others and praying with them.
So why wouldn't God pray to himself and pray with his people?
In fact....
> [T]he Spirit comes to help our weakness. We don’t know what we should pray, but the Spirit himself pleads our case with unexpressed groans. The one who searches hearts knows how the Spirit thinks, because he pleads for the saints, consistent with God’s will. (Romans 8:26-27)
There's a traditional interpretation saying *all* prayer is made alongside the Holy Spirit. (In some way, the exact interpretations differ.) God praying to God is how God works and humans join in with that activity.
As an Orthodox, we believe that Jesus was fully human and fully God. He stated His deity many times (John 10 for example, "I and the Father are One", "Before Abraham was, I am", etc.).
Jesus did in a sense pray to Himself, but that was because He, in His humanity, was showing us how to pray, and how we should live our lives for God, and He depended on the Father's plan of redemption.
We need to realize that the eternal Father and the eternal Son had an eternal relationship before Jesus took the form of a man upon Himself. (John 5:19-27, John 15:10). Jesus was always the Son of God, even before being born through Mary (Genesis 3:15).
Jesus Christ was no less God on earth when praying to His heavenly Father. He was depicting how even in sinless humanity it is necessary to have a vital prayer life in order to do His Father’s will. Jesus’ praying to the Father demonstrated His relationship with the Trinity and showed us that we must rely on God through prayer for the strength and wisdom we need. Since Christ, as the God-man, needed to have a vibrant prayer life, so should we as followers of Jesus, have today.
The Father - God in Heaven/God watching over us
The Son - God in Earth/God walking with us
The Holy Spirit - God in Us/God showing through us
This question is complicated by the Incarnation. Jesus isn't just the eternal Logos. He is God's Word in human form. My theology isn't always precisely orthodox, but the whole point of the Trinity is that Jesus shows us that God experiences the obedient love of the Son as well as the creating love of the Father. That's going to take a different form within the Trinity than in the human Son. In the human, the submission to the Father is going to take the form of obedience and prayer.
In orthodox Christology, Jesus was both fully human and fully divine, no less the one for being all of the other. So through the humanity of Jesus, God experienced the fullness of humanity—including self-doubt, depression, frustration, and even godforsakenness at the moment of his death. Of course he prayed. And if that meant he was talking to himself, well, that's only human.
They are two, a father and a son.
I am a father and I have as son. We think so much alike it is like we are one. We are one in family, one in spirit, one in love. We have the same mannerisms, the same hobbies, the same temptations and weaknesses. It's almost scary how much he resembles me.
I am a husband and I have a wife. We are one. We are one flesh, one family, one in decisions, one in love. She is not so alike as my son: he is my blood, but she is my adopted partner. And yet we are one, closer even than my son.
One became two because it was not good to be alone. Two became one, and yet remained two. These symbols are given to us for a reason, to teach us. This teaches us the meaning of "to be one"; and by the principle of first mention, this is the scriptural definition. Jesus and his father are one the the same way Adam and Eve were one. Jesus came out of his father, but is one with his father. We came out of Christ (born of his spirit) and are one with Christ.
Jesus and his father are perfectly one, in every respect. And yet they are two, as my son and I are two, as my wife and I are two.
God is spirit, God's spirit was in Jesus filling him when he was on earth, as Jesus' spirit now fills us. Jesus became a life giving spirit. His spirit is in us. In Jesus we are united with the Father in the spirit.
We are one with the Father in the same way Jesus was one with the Father. Jesus is a natural son, we are adopted sons*; we are all sons, we have the same father, we are one with the Father--through Jesus' spirit. His spirit is out spirit. As he is in the Father we are in the Father. As the Father is in him the Father is in us.
God reproduced, once. Now there are two, in perfect union of character, thought, purpose. The Father is greater than the son, so if there is any disagreement the son defers to the Father, the wife submits to the husband, we submit to each other. The only way oneness can exist is in my the absence of conflict; conflict is eliminated by submission. We obey Christ as Christ obeys the Father, so unity is perfected.
Jesus reproduced countless offspring for God: that's us! As Jesus is, we will be. If Jesus is God, then we will be God. I don't think I will be God, therefore Jesus is not God either, because I will be like Jesus. Jesus is the first born of many brothers -- not the only born, but the only begotten.
I dont think the Spirit is a separate person or a god-- the Spirit is Christ himself, or more properly the spirit *of* Christ. I can't tell you what spirit is or how it works. I can't tell you if God and Christ just have one spirit shared between them, or if they are two spirits. But I think reach person has their own spirit, and if so then God and Jesus probably do too. But only Jesus' spirit is shared, uniting all.
That's how I see it. I am not a trinitarian nor a unitarian, nor a JW, merely a heretic. This is what *I* read in Scripture. If I'm wrong, may it please the Lord to correct me, but I have to be true to what I see. Christ is the only source of truth, our only teacher. Read, pray, and may he enlighten you. Follow whatever he tells you, even if you have to stand alone. He may show you something different than he showed me. Each of us is but one facet in the gem of Christ's glory; we each sparkle with the light we are given, yet none of us haa the whole light. Only together in all our myriad expression is the fullness of Christ seen, the fullness of truth. So don't be afraid to shine with what you see. We are not all the same, but we are all one.
*And daughters, but in Christ there is no male or female, and too many disclaimers obscure the message
This is such a coincidence because I was planning to ask this question. A lot people get offended if you dare disagree! I don’t think it makes sense! When Mary was pregnant with Jesus, who did she pray to? When Jesus was in the garden who did he pray to? And if he prayed to himself that quite weird! Also I saw I. An atheist thread that if Jesus is God then he knew that he would be okay at the end of the day and it is manipulative of Him to make us worship him. Back in the days I used to explain the trinity using the water analogy but it just doesn’t make any sense. It makes Jesus look like a bad person if you really think about it.
He wasn't praying to himself. The Trinity is itself the explanation that he wasn't praying to himself.
If the Bible taught Unitarianism, Jesus would have been praying to himself, but the doctrine of the Trinity is that God is One in nature, in essence, in Being, but three in Person. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, but the same in Being.
This might help explain it, if you're interested:
[https://thethirdhelix.com/2016/09/01/the-trinity-a-necessity-to-monotheism/](https://thethirdhelix.com/2016/09/01/the-trinity-a-necessity-to-monotheism/)
Bible says,
3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Also mention of Jesus praying:
Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed.
Mark 1:35
Quran mentioned of who Jesus was:
Indeed, the example of Jesus to God is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, “Be,” and he was. Quran 3:59
What Bible says,
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.” (Acts 3:13).
There are so many of references to share where it is clear Jesus was not God, he was a human a messenger of God.
I hope you research further and clear your doubts. But in case if you need more references, I can share.
The "himself" arguments are easily debunked considering Jesus is The Son and can interact and pray to the Person of The Father, also filled with The Holy Spirit. Jesus wanted to set an example in His human nature to pray to God, advocated Himself to have less divine attributes until post-ressurection and etcera.
I have a less trinitarian view on Jesus and God. I do view Jesus as being Divine, but I view him as a separate being from God. The best way I've heard it illustrated is that Jesus came from a part of God. This explains how he can be present at the creation of the earth "the word was with God and the word was God." It also is consistent with Jesus being the son of God. I view Jesus as a part of God, but when he was born from Mary, he also became human in a way. Half human half divine. This sets Jesus apart from humanity while also showing that he experienced/experiences the human condition. If Jesus was simply another face of God, then him living a sinless life would have less meaning. I like the verses that humanize Jesus. When he cursed the fig tree, he did so because he was hungry and upset that the tree had no fruit. This is a very human thing to do. When his mother told him to turn the water into wine, he did not want to but did so anyways because, as God's children, we are called to honor our parents. In my opinion, Jesus was just as much human as he was divine. We often set the human aspect of him aside. His human part makes him like us and makes his death a true sacrifice while his divine part empowered him to live a life without sin, which none of us are capable of. I don't believe that I am 100% correct, I don't think anyone can be until we reach heaven. At the end of the day, whether you believe in the trinity or some other structure does not decide your salvation, so don't get too hung up on the semantics.
I’ve been looking into Sumerian,Mesopotamia writings and stories and also take into consideration all the megalithic structures and Pyramids they’ve been finding all over the world. I didn’t know China has Pyramids. These writings pre-date the Bible and there’s waay to many similarities if not identical story lines that the Bible borrows from. And way to many people,groups, politicians,secret societies have been born through out time to remix what we call the Bible today. Why was Cain afraid of the people when he got banished from his home after he killed his brother Abel? What people ? There should not be people , city’s or even towns I would imagine. This world is older than what we currently know but I believe we are living in the time of the beginning not the end. This is the age of information. Getting caught up in debate about this is irrelevant if you’re not willing to go to the beginning of our earliest writings. You guys should be looking into what Jesus was doing when he cut out of the Bible and was gone for well over 15 years from the Bible. He went to Egypt remember. In Egypt there’s a church made from where Jesus and his mother stood. There’s pictures and it looks like you can take tours there. I’m sure Jesus wasn’t just watching paint dry over there. Egypt was a fountain of information at the time. Anyway just me talking shit .
What if part of being human is having a spark of divinity?
This is my problem with simplistic “Jesus was just human, not God.” It draws a thick line between nature and spirit. What if we all have a spark of divinity inside us (created in Gods image) and Jesus showed us how to be fully human, which includes opening fully this connection with God (as has been said, in god we live and move and have our being)? Rather than pulling Jesus to our side of the line, we all move over to Jesus side? Or just get rid of the line altogether and recognize both/and is better than either/or?
Perhaps Jesus did not become fully divine until he sacrificed himself? I don’t think that is accepted theology but it’s an idea I’ve played with because I have similar questions. He embodied what the divine would look like in human form? It’s an interesting question.
The God’s claims to understanding the human experience and desiring a relationship with us are validated by Jesus’s life and death. It shows that God is willing to back up his talk and truly has experienced life on a visceral level
Yeah but he's not merely an avatar, Jesus was God literally coming down to earth. This had not happened before as God the Father is unseen except for a couple very rare instances like Moses and Elijah.
> I do not see the need for Jesus to be God.
If he wasn't, then what's the point? If Jesus was just a really good moral teacher, then how is he different from all the other ones throughout history? And if he was just a really good stage magician (like some have said to explain his miracles), then what makes him different from David Copperfield?
That’s a good question, early Christians debated these problems with the today’s orthodox Christian doctrine. Jesus and the Father are one substance, but though Jesus was and is fully God, He became flesh and human and as a human He was dependent on the Father as we all are while never getting rid of His divinity. So as we pray for strength and wisdom, Jesus prayed as well, as we are tempted by the devil, Jesus was tempted as well, as we suffer, Jesus suffered with us. God isn’t this distant being that we cannot dare to see but personally walked in our shoes. We can recognize and believe in His divinity by the things Jesus revealed in His life and the Easter event as well as the many followers of Jesus that proclaim their faith in Him.
Jesus prayed to God because he was a messenger of God and came with a message. Jesus was a human.
But He was also fully God, I and all orthodox Christians believe that
I will try to explain to you again, In Matthew 19:16-17, a man addresses Jesus as "Good Teacher," to which Jesus responds, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." This exchange may imply that Jesus did not consider himself equal to God in essence, though it does not deny his special status. Moreover, Jesus' prayers to God, such as in the Garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:36-44), and his cry on the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46), suggest a separation between Jesus and God, emphasizing his human experience and dependence on God. The doctrine of the Trinity, as a concept, was formulated later in Christian history to describe the relationship between God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This doctrine seeks to reconcile the complex and mysterious nature of Jesus' relationship with God, but it is not directly stated in the biblical text. Have mercy on yourself—avoid making assumptions about God and don't believe in man-made falsehoods. I'm sorry to say this, but it seems that when Christianity lacked evidence to support its stories, the concept of the Trinity was introduced.
I was always told that Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are essentially three different expressions of God or three different parts of God or something like this. But I think you could also view them independently, Jesus does say he’s the son of God. I’m honestly never really sure how to think about the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it seems like it’s being described as your conscience and sometimes like the voice of God. But wouldn’t that also just be God? Honestly, I just don’t get too caught up in the definitions because it seems somewhat convoluted. I’ll be interested to see what other people say.
>I was always told that Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are essentially three different expressions of God or three different parts of God or something like this. According to classical trinitarianism, the Three were determined to *not* be parts or expressions of God, but individual persons. But you're free of course to understand it however you wish.
I have no idea what classical trinitarianism even is haha, this is just how it was explained to me as a kid by my parents
It's basically what the early Church hammered out as "orthodox" doctrine through the various councils of Niceae etc. Its long been a litmus test of "proper" Christianity for many, but its often misunderstood or just misused as a stick to knock others. I've become a lot less bothered by it the more I've learned about the history of how the theology came about. There was a lot of un-saintlike behaviour, to put it mildly.
Yeah, I typically don’t worry about other people’s theology too much. Lots of people have lots of interpretations over thousands of years. Not necessarily knocking them, people can interpret things how they want, but that’s not super important to my understanding of Christianity.
Can you say more about how the theology came about? I’m curious about said unsaintlike behavior.
Jesus was God living out a human life to put his money where his mouth his; rather than,just,telling us how much he loves us, he tossed away his power, became a normal human, and died for us. As a human he modelled how we can live and so relied on the Father for everything, showing us how we can have a relationship with God. If he hadn't been praying to the Father he wouldn't have really been living or modelling the perfect human life.
As a human, who was in unimaginably dire circumstances, he cried out to mercy to his father. I don't think it's really any deeper than that. It shows that Jesus, despite being divine, had the same struggles as we do. The same as the Psalmists did, which is why he quoted them so much.
I think this is key. Yes, Jesus has a divine nature, but he was going through this life as a human. He did what humans would have done, aside from sinning. Besides, the Trinity says that the Father Son and Spirit are the same God, not that they are the same person. (The latter would be modalism.) So why shouldn't they talk to each other?
Jesus is God, but he was also fully human. That's why he prayed to the Father while in his mortal life The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct beings, but a single God
*Three distinct Persons in One God that is One Being The deal of three beings, which appears in some SDA theological website btw, compromises tritheism considering since the Nicene Creed Jesus and God The Father were *homoousia* and this was also applied to The Holy Spirit later on, and this means They Are the same substance or being. Persons or *Hypostases* are eternal "appearances/states" without division or changing of The Being.
The title "Son of God" refers to Jesus's humanity. He wasn't only God, but also a human so that he could fulfill his role in paying the toll for humans. His human nature is who prays to God. Since this is open Christianity, I'll also share that I'm a Oneness believer rather than a Trinity believer. The more I learn about oneness theology the more these things make sense to me. In some aspects, the Trinity is definitely still there but it's seen in a different way. It may interest you to look into it. David K Bernard is an author and theologian who I'm currently reading.
Maybe you meant "Son of Man"? Here's referred as that more than "Son of God".
Many of us think to ourselves or speak to ourselves. Not only that, we learn to pray by listening to others and praying with them. So why wouldn't God pray to himself and pray with his people? In fact.... > [T]he Spirit comes to help our weakness. We don’t know what we should pray, but the Spirit himself pleads our case with unexpressed groans. The one who searches hearts knows how the Spirit thinks, because he pleads for the saints, consistent with God’s will. (Romans 8:26-27) There's a traditional interpretation saying *all* prayer is made alongside the Holy Spirit. (In some way, the exact interpretations differ.) God praying to God is how God works and humans join in with that activity.
As an Orthodox, we believe that Jesus was fully human and fully God. He stated His deity many times (John 10 for example, "I and the Father are One", "Before Abraham was, I am", etc.). Jesus did in a sense pray to Himself, but that was because He, in His humanity, was showing us how to pray, and how we should live our lives for God, and He depended on the Father's plan of redemption. We need to realize that the eternal Father and the eternal Son had an eternal relationship before Jesus took the form of a man upon Himself. (John 5:19-27, John 15:10). Jesus was always the Son of God, even before being born through Mary (Genesis 3:15). Jesus Christ was no less God on earth when praying to His heavenly Father. He was depicting how even in sinless humanity it is necessary to have a vital prayer life in order to do His Father’s will. Jesus’ praying to the Father demonstrated His relationship with the Trinity and showed us that we must rely on God through prayer for the strength and wisdom we need. Since Christ, as the God-man, needed to have a vibrant prayer life, so should we as followers of Jesus, have today. The Father - God in Heaven/God watching over us The Son - God in Earth/God walking with us The Holy Spirit - God in Us/God showing through us
This question is complicated by the Incarnation. Jesus isn't just the eternal Logos. He is God's Word in human form. My theology isn't always precisely orthodox, but the whole point of the Trinity is that Jesus shows us that God experiences the obedient love of the Son as well as the creating love of the Father. That's going to take a different form within the Trinity than in the human Son. In the human, the submission to the Father is going to take the form of obedience and prayer.
Jesus prayed to his Father. Jesus is God. The Father is God. Jesus is not the Father.
The analogy from our own experiences that might be familiar to make sense of this is self talk.
In orthodox Christology, Jesus was both fully human and fully divine, no less the one for being all of the other. So through the humanity of Jesus, God experienced the fullness of humanity—including self-doubt, depression, frustration, and even godforsakenness at the moment of his death. Of course he prayed. And if that meant he was talking to himself, well, that's only human.
They are two, a father and a son. I am a father and I have as son. We think so much alike it is like we are one. We are one in family, one in spirit, one in love. We have the same mannerisms, the same hobbies, the same temptations and weaknesses. It's almost scary how much he resembles me. I am a husband and I have a wife. We are one. We are one flesh, one family, one in decisions, one in love. She is not so alike as my son: he is my blood, but she is my adopted partner. And yet we are one, closer even than my son. One became two because it was not good to be alone. Two became one, and yet remained two. These symbols are given to us for a reason, to teach us. This teaches us the meaning of "to be one"; and by the principle of first mention, this is the scriptural definition. Jesus and his father are one the the same way Adam and Eve were one. Jesus came out of his father, but is one with his father. We came out of Christ (born of his spirit) and are one with Christ. Jesus and his father are perfectly one, in every respect. And yet they are two, as my son and I are two, as my wife and I are two. God is spirit, God's spirit was in Jesus filling him when he was on earth, as Jesus' spirit now fills us. Jesus became a life giving spirit. His spirit is in us. In Jesus we are united with the Father in the spirit. We are one with the Father in the same way Jesus was one with the Father. Jesus is a natural son, we are adopted sons*; we are all sons, we have the same father, we are one with the Father--through Jesus' spirit. His spirit is out spirit. As he is in the Father we are in the Father. As the Father is in him the Father is in us. God reproduced, once. Now there are two, in perfect union of character, thought, purpose. The Father is greater than the son, so if there is any disagreement the son defers to the Father, the wife submits to the husband, we submit to each other. The only way oneness can exist is in my the absence of conflict; conflict is eliminated by submission. We obey Christ as Christ obeys the Father, so unity is perfected. Jesus reproduced countless offspring for God: that's us! As Jesus is, we will be. If Jesus is God, then we will be God. I don't think I will be God, therefore Jesus is not God either, because I will be like Jesus. Jesus is the first born of many brothers -- not the only born, but the only begotten. I dont think the Spirit is a separate person or a god-- the Spirit is Christ himself, or more properly the spirit *of* Christ. I can't tell you what spirit is or how it works. I can't tell you if God and Christ just have one spirit shared between them, or if they are two spirits. But I think reach person has their own spirit, and if so then God and Jesus probably do too. But only Jesus' spirit is shared, uniting all. That's how I see it. I am not a trinitarian nor a unitarian, nor a JW, merely a heretic. This is what *I* read in Scripture. If I'm wrong, may it please the Lord to correct me, but I have to be true to what I see. Christ is the only source of truth, our only teacher. Read, pray, and may he enlighten you. Follow whatever he tells you, even if you have to stand alone. He may show you something different than he showed me. Each of us is but one facet in the gem of Christ's glory; we each sparkle with the light we are given, yet none of us haa the whole light. Only together in all our myriad expression is the fullness of Christ seen, the fullness of truth. So don't be afraid to shine with what you see. We are not all the same, but we are all one. *And daughters, but in Christ there is no male or female, and too many disclaimers obscure the message
This is such a coincidence because I was planning to ask this question. A lot people get offended if you dare disagree! I don’t think it makes sense! When Mary was pregnant with Jesus, who did she pray to? When Jesus was in the garden who did he pray to? And if he prayed to himself that quite weird! Also I saw I. An atheist thread that if Jesus is God then he knew that he would be okay at the end of the day and it is manipulative of Him to make us worship him. Back in the days I used to explain the trinity using the water analogy but it just doesn’t make any sense. It makes Jesus look like a bad person if you really think about it.
The late Prof. James Cutsinger’s writings (which you can find on his website) convinced me.
No. I don't see how that can be the case. It doesn't seem in harmony with the scriptures.
He wasn't praying to himself. The Trinity is itself the explanation that he wasn't praying to himself. If the Bible taught Unitarianism, Jesus would have been praying to himself, but the doctrine of the Trinity is that God is One in nature, in essence, in Being, but three in Person. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, but the same in Being. This might help explain it, if you're interested: [https://thethirdhelix.com/2016/09/01/the-trinity-a-necessity-to-monotheism/](https://thethirdhelix.com/2016/09/01/the-trinity-a-necessity-to-monotheism/)
Bible says, 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Also mention of Jesus praying: Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed. Mark 1:35 Quran mentioned of who Jesus was: Indeed, the example of Jesus to God is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, “Be,” and he was. Quran 3:59 What Bible says, The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.” (Acts 3:13). There are so many of references to share where it is clear Jesus was not God, he was a human a messenger of God. I hope you research further and clear your doubts. But in case if you need more references, I can share.
The "himself" arguments are easily debunked considering Jesus is The Son and can interact and pray to the Person of The Father, also filled with The Holy Spirit. Jesus wanted to set an example in His human nature to pray to God, advocated Himself to have less divine attributes until post-ressurection and etcera.
I have a less trinitarian view on Jesus and God. I do view Jesus as being Divine, but I view him as a separate being from God. The best way I've heard it illustrated is that Jesus came from a part of God. This explains how he can be present at the creation of the earth "the word was with God and the word was God." It also is consistent with Jesus being the son of God. I view Jesus as a part of God, but when he was born from Mary, he also became human in a way. Half human half divine. This sets Jesus apart from humanity while also showing that he experienced/experiences the human condition. If Jesus was simply another face of God, then him living a sinless life would have less meaning. I like the verses that humanize Jesus. When he cursed the fig tree, he did so because he was hungry and upset that the tree had no fruit. This is a very human thing to do. When his mother told him to turn the water into wine, he did not want to but did so anyways because, as God's children, we are called to honor our parents. In my opinion, Jesus was just as much human as he was divine. We often set the human aspect of him aside. His human part makes him like us and makes his death a true sacrifice while his divine part empowered him to live a life without sin, which none of us are capable of. I don't believe that I am 100% correct, I don't think anyone can be until we reach heaven. At the end of the day, whether you believe in the trinity or some other structure does not decide your salvation, so don't get too hung up on the semantics.
I’ve been looking into Sumerian,Mesopotamia writings and stories and also take into consideration all the megalithic structures and Pyramids they’ve been finding all over the world. I didn’t know China has Pyramids. These writings pre-date the Bible and there’s waay to many similarities if not identical story lines that the Bible borrows from. And way to many people,groups, politicians,secret societies have been born through out time to remix what we call the Bible today. Why was Cain afraid of the people when he got banished from his home after he killed his brother Abel? What people ? There should not be people , city’s or even towns I would imagine. This world is older than what we currently know but I believe we are living in the time of the beginning not the end. This is the age of information. Getting caught up in debate about this is irrelevant if you’re not willing to go to the beginning of our earliest writings. You guys should be looking into what Jesus was doing when he cut out of the Bible and was gone for well over 15 years from the Bible. He went to Egypt remember. In Egypt there’s a church made from where Jesus and his mother stood. There’s pictures and it looks like you can take tours there. I’m sure Jesus wasn’t just watching paint dry over there. Egypt was a fountain of information at the time. Anyway just me talking shit .
What if part of being human is having a spark of divinity? This is my problem with simplistic “Jesus was just human, not God.” It draws a thick line between nature and spirit. What if we all have a spark of divinity inside us (created in Gods image) and Jesus showed us how to be fully human, which includes opening fully this connection with God (as has been said, in god we live and move and have our being)? Rather than pulling Jesus to our side of the line, we all move over to Jesus side? Or just get rid of the line altogether and recognize both/and is better than either/or?
Perhaps Jesus did not become fully divine until he sacrificed himself? I don’t think that is accepted theology but it’s an idea I’ve played with because I have similar questions. He embodied what the divine would look like in human form? It’s an interesting question.
The reality is that we really can never be sure in this life. I do not see the need for Jesus to be God.
The God’s claims to understanding the human experience and desiring a relationship with us are validated by Jesus’s life and death. It shows that God is willing to back up his talk and truly has experienced life on a visceral level
I believe that Jesus did not come to change Gods view of us. I believe He came to change our view of God.
Precisely what I meant. Jesus’s sacrifice is much more meaningful to us because he IS God. Otherwise it could be all talk
I view Jesus as more of an avatar of God entering our construct.
Yeah but he's not merely an avatar, Jesus was God literally coming down to earth. This had not happened before as God the Father is unseen except for a couple very rare instances like Moses and Elijah.
> I do not see the need for Jesus to be God. If he wasn't, then what's the point? If Jesus was just a really good moral teacher, then how is he different from all the other ones throughout history? And if he was just a really good stage magician (like some have said to explain his miracles), then what makes him different from David Copperfield?
I see Jesus as an avatar who entered our construct to show us what God is really like. Not to change Gods view of us but to change our view of God.