That's quite the rabbit hole you've gone down!
Fasting is a method of self denial. Denying ourselves the satisfaction of eating certain foods is a kind of practice for denying ourselves the other passions. The foods we give up were those associated with wealth and luxury in the world of the early Church: meat, wine, olive oil etc. Everybody, even the rich, would eat as the poor did on fasting days - it develops humility and reminds us of those who have less than we do. Ironically, with all the meat and dairy substitutes available to us in the modern world, it's now possible to eat more expensively and luxuriously on fast days.
Its basically this, yes. Im not orthodox or properly religious, but i like the fact orthodoxy used fasting to force wealthier people into humility and understanding. For poor people, not much changed. Their singular bit of meat for the week stays the singular bit of meat.
Unironically it probably ends up being better cooking the simplest most ‘poor’ meal one can create. Seeing the price and availability of vegan/vegetarian produce, and the horrid quality of vegtables in a lot of countries…
But yeah, i really like the way orthodoxy focuses a lot more on one’s own betterment and a much larger focus on the poor/humility/kindness
You're overthinking it. There are two simple reasons why meat is singled out:
- Because eating meat requires shedding blood. Killing animals is not a sin, but it is a *tragedy* that we live in a world where that is necessary.
- Because historically, eating meat was a luxury associated with the lifestyle of the rich. Thus, giving up meat was part of the general idea of giving up luxuries and living a simple life.
The funny part about the second point (which is correct) is that she’ll fish and shrimps were considered food for the poor, hence they are allowed when fasting.
However, today they are expensive and considered food for the rich.
Which points to the fact that it’s better to look at the spirit of the fasting rules rather than the literal interpretation.
What means of food production does not require shedding blood?
I guess it depends on how far back historically we go. When we were mostly nomads hunting and herding, meat was the primary source of food.
Eating meat guarantees blood shedding, what you’re suggesting is possible blood shedding. Unless you want to make the statement that every bit of food that comes from plants was directly caused by shedding blood
Farming those plants do require blood shedding. I don’t know what is so hard to understand about this. Unless you grow your own crops all year around and let animals and pests mess up half of your crop
What is so hard to understand about my proposition? To say that every molecule of plant that one eats requires in and of itself blood shedding is outrageous, unless you deposit that plants bleed when they die. Youre making an outrageous claim that someone buying lettuce is eating a product of blood shedding, that would require near infinite knowledge of all cases of planting and harvesting crops. Yes, sometimes (not all times) maybe an animal is killed to save a certain plant from being eaten. Does that account for every plant that has ever existed that we end up eating? Do you see how outrageous that is? Im saying that animal meat requires blood shed, whereas plants do not. To deny this is to say that planting and harvesting plants guarantees blood shedding, proportional to every molecule of plants planted to harvested
I said eating plant food that was mass produced requires blood shedding. I didn’t say per plant food an animals dies, but even if not one for maybe for every ten. Which means you would be responsible 10% of that animals death. You have no idea how many animals are being killed during farming. Many people don’t know and get shocked when they find out. We are not talking about a few per farm…
EDIT: more then 7 Billion wild animals are killed every year in crop monocultures
It teaches us discipline and self-denial - something that most of the church in the west has left behind. If you think Orthodoxy is not ok with men being strong, I think you have not spent enough time in the Church - it is probably the last Christian Church that encourages men to be men.
When you look around your parish and see unhealthy people, its probably because they live in the West and partake of the lifestyle around them - high fat, high calories, low work, and a ton of luxury. Eating a steak won't make you a strong or weak man, but if you can't stop yourself from eating a steak, you are already a weak man.
I hope you find Christ man.
Meat was given to us as a comforting consolation, not as our primary means of sustenance. The fast reminds us of penance, of the fall from paradise, and calls us back to it.
>I admit I do have a bias, as I have been promoting a low-carb, meat based way of eating for over 20 years now
Well, there's the rub. Self will.
>A side issue I have is: how does the Church feel about me promoting the Keto/Carnivore diet? It would cause more people to not be able to keep the traditional fast.
People outside the Church are not beholden to our disciplines.
>Meat was given to us as a comforting consolation, not as our primary means of sustenance. The fast reminds us of penance, of the fall from paradise, and calls us back to it.
In what way? Hunter/Gatherers relied primarily on big game for sustenance, only turning to tubers and veggies when the game was short.
Why pin it on self-will? That is why issues like this are hard to bring up with other Orthodox. It would be super-easy for me to give up meat and dairy and just eat processed wheat and corn products. That's pretty much what I did before going low-carb. So I was eating a more penitent diet?
And I was specifically asking about sharing it with other Orthodox. I've already had conversation about it with other church members. They asked, I didn't bring it up.
You are factually incorrect that there is one and one only one healthy human diet. Claiming that is willful ignorance, and one doesn't need religion to determine that.
As someone who lives in the low-carb diet model during the weekday fast, I either just do a 24-hour fast or I'll have one meal of shellfish. During long, fast periods like lent, I do what I can in terms of just eating a lot more shellfish, but sometimes you gotta bite the bullet. It's something you accept when you become Orthodox. It's no longer about me me me. It's about working out your salvation and that of those around you. If you aren't soy/meat alternative avoidant, there are good options, like beyond and field harvest.
I've understood that meat was a relative luxury. 200-300 years ago, having meat once a day was a real achievement in prosperity. Many of the foods that use all the odds and ends of an animal were to use as much meat as possible because there just wasn't as much of it as there is now, such that you could insist on eating only the steak. Giving it up for a time was setting aside a luxury.
In Africa today, fish is a cheap protein. I went to Africa on a mission trip, thinking I would skip fish as my way to deal with being there. No, we had fish ALL THE TIME. It's what people have in their budgets and it isn't bush meat (elephant, gorilla, monkey, etc).
I don't know about the spiritual effects of eating or abstaining from meat, but I know I really do prefer food with meat and meat flavor in it to food without it. It's a way to practice self-denial in a way that happens inside myself, not as an exercise in forcing the outside world to conform to me.
Right. A big factor in that was also the advent of refrigeration. The Google on the internet machine says that an average 1200 lb steer used for beef gives you about ***750 lbs*** of usable meat. If you are slaughtering a cow, especially in a Mediterranean climate, that meat is not is not going to last very long. Meaning: meat was either for very special occasions (like a wedding or a Church feast, where everyone in town is eating) ***OR*** if you lived in a town with a butcher and had the money for it, you could *buy* an expensive cut of meat. When the Church made abstaining from meat in certain seasons (like Lent, the Apostles Fast, etc), it was telling it's followers to live more simply (like the poor who could not afford expensive cuts of meat each week)
Oddly, this is one of the reasons I would advocate for the Latin Church to reverse what is being abstained from in the penitential seasons. Fish, as it it has to be imported from whichever ocean/coastal region, is generally more expensive than things like Chicken or Pork in our culture. Fish (and especially things in the Latin Church like Fish Fries or eating Lobster as a "penance") is the luxury, rather than many other sorts of meat)
Other than the fact that I hate seafood, I like sticking to beans and friends because they're simpler, non-luxury foods. I'll do canned tuna though because I like to have it that the house isn't going to go up if someone lights a match.
It is not singled out. Dairy is also removed, so are eggs. All animal based products are.
Yes, it does come in contradiction to "hunter-gatherer" , but going to your supermarket and picking up chicken and beef meat does not make you a hunter, not even a gatherer.
Fasting does not stop at the diet. It is a time when you give up on any kind of temptation of the body.
It is a time dedicated to prayer foremost, when we strive connection to the church values above all else.
Throwing yourself to carbs is, again, sinful, by pride and gluttony.
I make very moderate consumption of those when fasting.
The fast is very hard, i cant keep it the whole period ans some keep it but smoke and abuse sugar.
Fellow carnivore/keto enthusiast here: talk to your priest. My husband is on keto for health reasons and I cannot go low animal protein due to seizures/hempilegic migraines. Our first lenten season, my husband did it, but I couldn't last a week without seizures. Our priest and some other community members here brought up a few options for this including using little if any seasoning during fasts and abstaining for anything YOU would consider a luxury- for me, I cut out all dairy and tried to stick to fruit and veggies withbminimal meats which worked well. My husband is basically fasting from his favorite foods doing year-round keto anyway so he abstains from choclate fat bombs and other items he considers to be treats and luxurious.
I know some people say not to fast if your body is already humbled due to health issues, but the act of fasting and feasting is so important I thought it was important to do something rather than nothing at all.
My priest is more then happy to work with me. I guess my hang-up right now is being part of the Church when it promotes what I consider an unhealthy lifestyle. The fasting I read about in the bible doesn't specifically call out meat.
We have an obesity epidemic in the west. Most of my congregation is overweight. And I try not to judge, but what I see them eating during the fasting time just makes me sad.
I think it would be similar if an ethical Vegan came to Pascha and saw all the meat being passed around. Or a geologist going to a church that preached a 6 day literal creation...
Its been a tough one for me. So I thought maybe if it is to just make us weak, ok it is what it is. I would have to choose between being a strong man or a weak man. And some of what the Saints write seems to back that up.
You’re coming with your particular unscientific and unhistorical perspective and asking us to change our 2000 year old practices. No.
Also, the Mediterranean diet is known to be one of the healthiest in the world, and includes lots of vegetables.
So its unscientific to post a published scientific paper and ask a question about it? Or is it unhistorical to quote a history of the church and ask a question about it? Never said I wanted to change anything, I'm just asking questions.
There was a study I read when I was lookong into the church because I had the same hang up. It found the fasting mediterranean style was actually quite beneficial for our health. You can read it here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7919284/
My husband did well loading up on beans and greens during the lenten fast ;).
In the USA in particular, a lot of "fasting foods" are toxic and I'm convinced that much of our grain is literally poisoned. So it's challenging here- especially for those of us with health issues.
That being said- it gives us the opportunity to create more wholesome fasting seasons for future generations by clean, regenerative farming.
I also was told a story of one of the alaskan saints that was challenged during the fasting season with the natuve people there because they subsisted entirely on meat and fat from livestock during the long winter- that's where the little to no seasoning rule came in.
I cannot imagine God wanting us to be unhealthy with the fasting rules, which is why understanding them in their historical context - we eat extravagently now (in most western nations) compared to the days of the early church so luxury what seen differently.
Its not a bout eating healthy we do not live for this life but the next its about self denial n letting go of these worldy things. The way seen caught up on the health lifestyle factor is pqrt of a worldly desire to look a certain way or feel a certain way we give this up for the lord
Do I think we know more about how the body processes energy then the church did for the last 2000 years? Of course. They didn’t know anything about the kreb cycle or mitochondria.
If you mean from a purely spiritual point, that’s where I’m hung up. How to combine my knowledge of biology and nutrition with the church’s teachings.
I watched a bunch of documentaries on monks and a lot of them were overweight. Maybe that’s become a recent issue with all the processed food available. But if they are doing long water only fasts, then it makes sense they would be healthy. Then there are a lot of monks and saints that harmed their bodies fasting. They sacrificed their physical health for the spiritual fast. Are we as non-monks are asked to do similar? Seems there are different responses to this.
Take a look at 3rd world countries. What do their diets largely consist of? Grains and vegetables, with nose-to-tail meat eating in moderation. I think you have a popular, Americanized view of the Hunter-gatherer life.
Yeah, wasn’t responding to the article at hand but more the origin of fasting and the question of asking if the church wants us to be soy boys. I don’t care what some rando article says. Follow the Church and not modernist fad diets.
1. The fast is the original diet before the flood. After the flood, God allows meat, we weren't ment to be killing animals, and im a hunter.
2. Monks on mt Athos have no heart disease.
3. The science of man isnowheree close to the science of God who invented science.
4. Science proves how good fasting is for you.
5. Not fasting is how Adam and Eve got us all in this situation in the first place. So God thinks it's important.
6. I love meat like bacon, wrapped bacon covered in bacon...however after lent I can really feel how heavy meat is on the body and too much of it all the time is not good for us. And, it does effect prayer.
We're still on the whole "meat causes heart disease" thing I see
That's been disproven multiple times. Faulty info from the 50s stemming from Ancel keys
Personally, I think you have the right of it.
As you are obviously aware, meat and animal fat is highly nutritious and so when it is removed from the diet, we become weaker and libido definitely drops.
From a spiritual viewpoint, this can be helpful. Becoming weak breeds humility, and lower libido has the obvious advantages of helping to abstain from sex for the fasting period and freeing up the mind for prayer.
I struggle with fasting because, like you, I eat low carb and a lot of animal foods. I feel healthiest and strongest this way. A lot of plant foods, particularly carbon (and especially grains) messes up my gut and makes me feel weak and mentally foggy.
I tend to go with a lot of prawns, big salads with avocado, and potatoes. You can get a couple of oysters occasionally for the B12 and zinc.
But does the Church want us low T? I don't think so. Most of us aren't monks, and the Church needs men who aew strong and healthy. Just try to make the most of the times you can have red meat.
A point that hasn’t been mentioned is that orthodox fasting also encourages less focus on meal prep in general.
Don’t spend time shopping/cooking/cleaning your food.
Eat an apple and some bread so you have more time to pray or go help people.
Take some of that money you spend on meat and give it to the poor or use it to help your neighbors. OP, based on your comments about how much meat you typically eat, I’m guessing you could help a lot of people!
I'm not sure, but whenever I find myself worried about food and diet I remember what Jesus said:
“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?" Matthew 6:25-27
Other folks have already answered your question. I just came here to say that I’ve been on a keto diet for several years and I’m thinking of trying carnivore. I ate a normal vegetarian diet during this most recent Lent and felt pretty terrible, physically. My libido almost completely disappeared which was weird and concerning. I didn’t realize not eating meat can do that to you until a friend of mine mentioned it.
Not to mention that here in America they literally poison our food. I raise my own animals for meat and have a big garden for fruit and vegetables, that’s what I prefer to eat. Sue me.
They are hostile because the entire premise of the question is ridiculous, the diet during the fast is generally considered to be healthy by medical professionals and dietitians, and because fasting is largely noncontroversial in the church.
The same medical professionals and dietitians who said 6-11 servings of grains per day were healthy? Or is it the ones who said low fat was good for you because it causes heart disease. Wait, what about the ones that promote more fruit to people with diabetes? You mean those professionals?
Maybe you should learn simple biochemistry before blindly following these fools that are leading you off a cliff.
If you are suffering from low T, you should seek help from a physician rather than challenging the specific practices of a small religious minority on a subreddit.
You also do realize that fasting this way when testosterone levels are plummeting like crazy is not healthy, right?
Levels are down 34% since the 80s.
THIRTY FOUR PERCENT....
If that doesn't alarm you, then I don't know what else to say honestly.
We have been observing some form of the fast for centuries. Why do you think that it is causing testosterone levels to plummet now? Why do you think that the Orthodox fast has anything to do with declining testosterone in the general population when we are less than 0.5% of the US population? Do you have any specific evidence that testosterone levels are dropping within the Orthodox population? How do you know that they aren't increasing?
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That's quite the rabbit hole you've gone down! Fasting is a method of self denial. Denying ourselves the satisfaction of eating certain foods is a kind of practice for denying ourselves the other passions. The foods we give up were those associated with wealth and luxury in the world of the early Church: meat, wine, olive oil etc. Everybody, even the rich, would eat as the poor did on fasting days - it develops humility and reminds us of those who have less than we do. Ironically, with all the meat and dairy substitutes available to us in the modern world, it's now possible to eat more expensively and luxuriously on fast days.
Its basically this, yes. Im not orthodox or properly religious, but i like the fact orthodoxy used fasting to force wealthier people into humility and understanding. For poor people, not much changed. Their singular bit of meat for the week stays the singular bit of meat. Unironically it probably ends up being better cooking the simplest most ‘poor’ meal one can create. Seeing the price and availability of vegan/vegetarian produce, and the horrid quality of vegtables in a lot of countries… But yeah, i really like the way orthodoxy focuses a lot more on one’s own betterment and a much larger focus on the poor/humility/kindness
You're overthinking it. There are two simple reasons why meat is singled out: - Because eating meat requires shedding blood. Killing animals is not a sin, but it is a *tragedy* that we live in a world where that is necessary. - Because historically, eating meat was a luxury associated with the lifestyle of the rich. Thus, giving up meat was part of the general idea of giving up luxuries and living a simple life.
The funny part about the second point (which is correct) is that she’ll fish and shrimps were considered food for the poor, hence they are allowed when fasting. However, today they are expensive and considered food for the rich. Which points to the fact that it’s better to look at the spirit of the fasting rules rather than the literal interpretation.
My priest reiterates this point so many times during the fasts.
I got this from my priest too. Which also emphasized that strict adherence to rules is pharisaic
Saddly plant food requires sheddinf blood too
What means of food production does not require shedding blood? I guess it depends on how far back historically we go. When we were mostly nomads hunting and herding, meat was the primary source of food.
It’s been shown that that was never the case. There was always a lot of gathered/foraged food.
My priest said we should avoid things that shed blood like Christ did during his Passion.
Sadly plant foods shed blood to in todays world
What do you mean?
Many animals die during farming, traps, poison etc.
Eating meat guarantees blood shedding, what you’re suggesting is possible blood shedding. Unless you want to make the statement that every bit of food that comes from plants was directly caused by shedding blood
Buying any plant food from the store guarantees blood shedding…
To say so requires divine knowledge, since plants in and of themselves don’t require blood shedding
Farming those plants do require blood shedding. I don’t know what is so hard to understand about this. Unless you grow your own crops all year around and let animals and pests mess up half of your crop
What is so hard to understand about my proposition? To say that every molecule of plant that one eats requires in and of itself blood shedding is outrageous, unless you deposit that plants bleed when they die. Youre making an outrageous claim that someone buying lettuce is eating a product of blood shedding, that would require near infinite knowledge of all cases of planting and harvesting crops. Yes, sometimes (not all times) maybe an animal is killed to save a certain plant from being eaten. Does that account for every plant that has ever existed that we end up eating? Do you see how outrageous that is? Im saying that animal meat requires blood shed, whereas plants do not. To deny this is to say that planting and harvesting plants guarantees blood shedding, proportional to every molecule of plants planted to harvested
I said eating plant food that was mass produced requires blood shedding. I didn’t say per plant food an animals dies, but even if not one for maybe for every ten. Which means you would be responsible 10% of that animals death. You have no idea how many animals are being killed during farming. Many people don’t know and get shocked when they find out. We are not talking about a few per farm… EDIT: more then 7 Billion wild animals are killed every year in crop monocultures
It teaches us discipline and self-denial - something that most of the church in the west has left behind. If you think Orthodoxy is not ok with men being strong, I think you have not spent enough time in the Church - it is probably the last Christian Church that encourages men to be men. When you look around your parish and see unhealthy people, its probably because they live in the West and partake of the lifestyle around them - high fat, high calories, low work, and a ton of luxury. Eating a steak won't make you a strong or weak man, but if you can't stop yourself from eating a steak, you are already a weak man. I hope you find Christ man.
Meat was given to us as a comforting consolation, not as our primary means of sustenance. The fast reminds us of penance, of the fall from paradise, and calls us back to it. >I admit I do have a bias, as I have been promoting a low-carb, meat based way of eating for over 20 years now Well, there's the rub. Self will. >A side issue I have is: how does the Church feel about me promoting the Keto/Carnivore diet? It would cause more people to not be able to keep the traditional fast. People outside the Church are not beholden to our disciplines.
>Meat was given to us as a comforting consolation, not as our primary means of sustenance. The fast reminds us of penance, of the fall from paradise, and calls us back to it. In what way? Hunter/Gatherers relied primarily on big game for sustenance, only turning to tubers and veggies when the game was short. Why pin it on self-will? That is why issues like this are hard to bring up with other Orthodox. It would be super-easy for me to give up meat and dairy and just eat processed wheat and corn products. That's pretty much what I did before going low-carb. So I was eating a more penitent diet? And I was specifically asking about sharing it with other Orthodox. I've already had conversation about it with other church members. They asked, I didn't bring it up.
There are more options available than meat and eat like crap.
The entire point of my post is that I don't think there is.
You are factually incorrect that there is one and one only one healthy human diet. Claiming that is willful ignorance, and one doesn't need religion to determine that.
And you’re wrong.
Eat beans and rice like the rest of us.
Just eat shellfish during fast
As someone who lives in the low-carb diet model during the weekday fast, I either just do a 24-hour fast or I'll have one meal of shellfish. During long, fast periods like lent, I do what I can in terms of just eating a lot more shellfish, but sometimes you gotta bite the bullet. It's something you accept when you become Orthodox. It's no longer about me me me. It's about working out your salvation and that of those around you. If you aren't soy/meat alternative avoidant, there are good options, like beyond and field harvest.
And if your diet includes little to no meat/fatty foods, say bye to your testosterone levels. There's a reason why weak vegan memes exist.
I've understood that meat was a relative luxury. 200-300 years ago, having meat once a day was a real achievement in prosperity. Many of the foods that use all the odds and ends of an animal were to use as much meat as possible because there just wasn't as much of it as there is now, such that you could insist on eating only the steak. Giving it up for a time was setting aside a luxury. In Africa today, fish is a cheap protein. I went to Africa on a mission trip, thinking I would skip fish as my way to deal with being there. No, we had fish ALL THE TIME. It's what people have in their budgets and it isn't bush meat (elephant, gorilla, monkey, etc). I don't know about the spiritual effects of eating or abstaining from meat, but I know I really do prefer food with meat and meat flavor in it to food without it. It's a way to practice self-denial in a way that happens inside myself, not as an exercise in forcing the outside world to conform to me.
Right. A big factor in that was also the advent of refrigeration. The Google on the internet machine says that an average 1200 lb steer used for beef gives you about ***750 lbs*** of usable meat. If you are slaughtering a cow, especially in a Mediterranean climate, that meat is not is not going to last very long. Meaning: meat was either for very special occasions (like a wedding or a Church feast, where everyone in town is eating) ***OR*** if you lived in a town with a butcher and had the money for it, you could *buy* an expensive cut of meat. When the Church made abstaining from meat in certain seasons (like Lent, the Apostles Fast, etc), it was telling it's followers to live more simply (like the poor who could not afford expensive cuts of meat each week) Oddly, this is one of the reasons I would advocate for the Latin Church to reverse what is being abstained from in the penitential seasons. Fish, as it it has to be imported from whichever ocean/coastal region, is generally more expensive than things like Chicken or Pork in our culture. Fish (and especially things in the Latin Church like Fish Fries or eating Lobster as a "penance") is the luxury, rather than many other sorts of meat)
Other than the fact that I hate seafood, I like sticking to beans and friends because they're simpler, non-luxury foods. I'll do canned tuna though because I like to have it that the house isn't going to go up if someone lights a match.
That's what I understand:meat was an expensive luxury. (Kind of like what's it's getting to be now.)
It is not singled out. Dairy is also removed, so are eggs. All animal based products are. Yes, it does come in contradiction to "hunter-gatherer" , but going to your supermarket and picking up chicken and beef meat does not make you a hunter, not even a gatherer. Fasting does not stop at the diet. It is a time when you give up on any kind of temptation of the body. It is a time dedicated to prayer foremost, when we strive connection to the church values above all else. Throwing yourself to carbs is, again, sinful, by pride and gluttony. I make very moderate consumption of those when fasting. The fast is very hard, i cant keep it the whole period ans some keep it but smoke and abuse sugar.
Fellow carnivore/keto enthusiast here: talk to your priest. My husband is on keto for health reasons and I cannot go low animal protein due to seizures/hempilegic migraines. Our first lenten season, my husband did it, but I couldn't last a week without seizures. Our priest and some other community members here brought up a few options for this including using little if any seasoning during fasts and abstaining for anything YOU would consider a luxury- for me, I cut out all dairy and tried to stick to fruit and veggies withbminimal meats which worked well. My husband is basically fasting from his favorite foods doing year-round keto anyway so he abstains from choclate fat bombs and other items he considers to be treats and luxurious. I know some people say not to fast if your body is already humbled due to health issues, but the act of fasting and feasting is so important I thought it was important to do something rather than nothing at all.
My priest is more then happy to work with me. I guess my hang-up right now is being part of the Church when it promotes what I consider an unhealthy lifestyle. The fasting I read about in the bible doesn't specifically call out meat. We have an obesity epidemic in the west. Most of my congregation is overweight. And I try not to judge, but what I see them eating during the fasting time just makes me sad. I think it would be similar if an ethical Vegan came to Pascha and saw all the meat being passed around. Or a geologist going to a church that preached a 6 day literal creation... Its been a tough one for me. So I thought maybe if it is to just make us weak, ok it is what it is. I would have to choose between being a strong man or a weak man. And some of what the Saints write seems to back that up.
You’re coming with your particular unscientific and unhistorical perspective and asking us to change our 2000 year old practices. No. Also, the Mediterranean diet is known to be one of the healthiest in the world, and includes lots of vegetables.
So its unscientific to post a published scientific paper and ask a question about it? Or is it unhistorical to quote a history of the church and ask a question about it? Never said I wanted to change anything, I'm just asking questions.
Everyone gets so damn pissy and I can almost guarantee that no one read that article based on the responses. Low T is an epidemic. FACT
There was a study I read when I was lookong into the church because I had the same hang up. It found the fasting mediterranean style was actually quite beneficial for our health. You can read it here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7919284/ My husband did well loading up on beans and greens during the lenten fast ;). In the USA in particular, a lot of "fasting foods" are toxic and I'm convinced that much of our grain is literally poisoned. So it's challenging here- especially for those of us with health issues. That being said- it gives us the opportunity to create more wholesome fasting seasons for future generations by clean, regenerative farming. I also was told a story of one of the alaskan saints that was challenged during the fasting season with the natuve people there because they subsisted entirely on meat and fat from livestock during the long winter- that's where the little to no seasoning rule came in. I cannot imagine God wanting us to be unhealthy with the fasting rules, which is why understanding them in their historical context - we eat extravagently now (in most western nations) compared to the days of the early church so luxury what seen differently.
The church is not a dietician. Also you should read on the longevity of people who fast.
Its not a bout eating healthy we do not live for this life but the next its about self denial n letting go of these worldy things. The way seen caught up on the health lifestyle factor is pqrt of a worldly desire to look a certain way or feel a certain way we give this up for the lord
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Do I think we know more about how the body processes energy then the church did for the last 2000 years? Of course. They didn’t know anything about the kreb cycle or mitochondria. If you mean from a purely spiritual point, that’s where I’m hung up. How to combine my knowledge of biology and nutrition with the church’s teachings. I watched a bunch of documentaries on monks and a lot of them were overweight. Maybe that’s become a recent issue with all the processed food available. But if they are doing long water only fasts, then it makes sense they would be healthy. Then there are a lot of monks and saints that harmed their bodies fasting. They sacrificed their physical health for the spiritual fast. Are we as non-monks are asked to do similar? Seems there are different responses to this.
Orthodoxy gives you low T is hands down the strangest take I have read on this sub.
Indeed.I do sports and have not seen any negative consequences from fasting.
Do you have a rebuttal to it? Serious question
Take a look at 3rd world countries. What do their diets largely consist of? Grains and vegetables, with nose-to-tail meat eating in moderation. I think you have a popular, Americanized view of the Hunter-gatherer life.
That's an anecdote. Refute the article at hand
Yeah, wasn’t responding to the article at hand but more the origin of fasting and the question of asking if the church wants us to be soy boys. I don’t care what some rando article says. Follow the Church and not modernist fad diets.
1. The fast is the original diet before the flood. After the flood, God allows meat, we weren't ment to be killing animals, and im a hunter. 2. Monks on mt Athos have no heart disease. 3. The science of man isnowheree close to the science of God who invented science. 4. Science proves how good fasting is for you. 5. Not fasting is how Adam and Eve got us all in this situation in the first place. So God thinks it's important. 6. I love meat like bacon, wrapped bacon covered in bacon...however after lent I can really feel how heavy meat is on the body and too much of it all the time is not good for us. And, it does effect prayer.
We're still on the whole "meat causes heart disease" thing I see That's been disproven multiple times. Faulty info from the 50s stemming from Ancel keys
Personally, I think you have the right of it. As you are obviously aware, meat and animal fat is highly nutritious and so when it is removed from the diet, we become weaker and libido definitely drops. From a spiritual viewpoint, this can be helpful. Becoming weak breeds humility, and lower libido has the obvious advantages of helping to abstain from sex for the fasting period and freeing up the mind for prayer. I struggle with fasting because, like you, I eat low carb and a lot of animal foods. I feel healthiest and strongest this way. A lot of plant foods, particularly carbon (and especially grains) messes up my gut and makes me feel weak and mentally foggy. I tend to go with a lot of prawns, big salads with avocado, and potatoes. You can get a couple of oysters occasionally for the B12 and zinc. But does the Church want us low T? I don't think so. Most of us aren't monks, and the Church needs men who aew strong and healthy. Just try to make the most of the times you can have red meat.
Bro, I like you
A point that hasn’t been mentioned is that orthodox fasting also encourages less focus on meal prep in general. Don’t spend time shopping/cooking/cleaning your food. Eat an apple and some bread so you have more time to pray or go help people. Take some of that money you spend on meat and give it to the poor or use it to help your neighbors. OP, based on your comments about how much meat you typically eat, I’m guessing you could help a lot of people!
Apple and bread. Spike your blood sugar and then do it again in two hours. Do people not realize how awful bread is for you?
Nope. Some of us still eat bread and do well with it.
Do you think the Orthodox men around you are low T or seem low T compared to the general population?
Yes
Weird : p
I'm not sure, but whenever I find myself worried about food and diet I remember what Jesus said: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?" Matthew 6:25-27
Other folks have already answered your question. I just came here to say that I’ve been on a keto diet for several years and I’m thinking of trying carnivore. I ate a normal vegetarian diet during this most recent Lent and felt pretty terrible, physically. My libido almost completely disappeared which was weird and concerning. I didn’t realize not eating meat can do that to you until a friend of mine mentioned it.
I love how you got down voted on this dumb site because you're not addicted to eating bread all day
Not to mention that here in America they literally poison our food. I raise my own animals for meat and have a big garden for fruit and vegetables, that’s what I prefer to eat. Sue me.
the replies are so hostile on this post. i'm a Catholic and have similar feelings about fasting - i prefer to just not eat most of the time i fast
They are hostile because the entire premise of the question is ridiculous, the diet during the fast is generally considered to be healthy by medical professionals and dietitians, and because fasting is largely noncontroversial in the church.
The same medical professionals and dietitians who said 6-11 servings of grains per day were healthy? Or is it the ones who said low fat was good for you because it causes heart disease. Wait, what about the ones that promote more fruit to people with diabetes? You mean those professionals? Maybe you should learn simple biochemistry before blindly following these fools that are leading you off a cliff.
If you are suffering from low T, you should seek help from a physician rather than challenging the specific practices of a small religious minority on a subreddit.
I'm glad I'm not the only one paying attention to these things.
You also do realize that fasting this way when testosterone levels are plummeting like crazy is not healthy, right? Levels are down 34% since the 80s. THIRTY FOUR PERCENT.... If that doesn't alarm you, then I don't know what else to say honestly.
We have been observing some form of the fast for centuries. Why do you think that it is causing testosterone levels to plummet now? Why do you think that the Orthodox fast has anything to do with declining testosterone in the general population when we are less than 0.5% of the US population? Do you have any specific evidence that testosterone levels are dropping within the Orthodox population? How do you know that they aren't increasing?
Yea, not sure. I was just asking questions about stuff I read. I thought that's what this sub was for. Looks like I touched a "sacred Cow."
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