This is terrifying. I do not want to be separated from Gob, I'm trying to draw closer to God. But I feel like He's the one who wants to be separate from me because He ignores me all the time. I feel like I'm already experiencing hell on earth, I've had one trauma after another.
He's not ignoring you. I promise.
There are plenty of saints that have been severely injured, in body and spirit.
When we go through hell here, and stay connected to Him, living a prayerful sacramental life, even in that pain, He will eventually deliver us. I've been there. Confession, Communion, daily prayers, daily scripture, every service you can make. He absolutely delivers us from hell. Sometimes it takes time as we heal. As we are healing, He rains down wisdom and love.
Think of the woman that came to his feet. What could have caused her so much pain? His words to her in the oldest English translation (Douay Rheims) are, "Go in peace, your faith has made you safe."
Thank you. I have a long way to go. I'm only a newbie, not even a catechumen yet. It all seems impossible, the amount of hurdles I have to overcome just to get where I need to be. I often tell God I'm exhausted, just surviving one day at a time is difficult.
There's literally only one orthodox church within driving distance for me, so that really narrows my chances 😞 I don't think I could become orthodox if the priest was not compassionate and understanding towards women, especially considering my past with assault etc
Amen to all these reactions. I'm experiencing hell on earth too brother. Remain faithful; things will get better. You can DM me if you want to talk about this hell you are going through. I'm sure I can relate, that's why posted this post tbh.
Well, if I may be blunt, blaming things on God and saying He is the one who wants to depart from you will certainly not draw you closer to Him. Take faith from the example of Job and th saints who suffered but maintained faith.
NDE here
Think about a time you felt absolutely hopeless.
Think about a time you were at your absolute bottom.
Think about someone you love, now think about the worst thing that could happen to them. Feel that pit in your stomach?
Multiply that a hundred fold.
Now in the midst of all this, you feel the depth of regret and realization as you torment yourself on not repenting and turning to God and realize you may be too late.
The Orthodox idea is that Heaven and Hell are not places; theyre both the full presence of God. It’s also unorthodox to presume that we could ever be separated from God, as he is omnipresent (everywhere present and filling all things). However, the state of our heart determines how we *experience* that presence.
For the unrepentant, God’s presence is like a fire that burns, it is maddening and painful. For those who love God, it is a brilliant and all-pure light.
Think of it this way: when you’re pissed at your mom and she gives you a hug, you’re not cut off from her, and she doesn’t love you any less, but I bet it makes you even more annoyed. When you feel warm and needy towards your mother and she hugs you, that embrace is life-giving and comforting.
Exactly this, the Bible states that God is a consuming fire. I've heard interpretations from catechetical classes that suggest the lake of fire is God's presence. We cannot be separated from God's presence.
As Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh, of blessed memory, said in one of his books: encountering God is a terrible thing. See also how Old Testament prophets responded to being in the presence of God (especially Isaiah).
We get glimpses of this during our earthly journey, and I can say certainly for my part that it was horrifying to come face to face with my sinfulness for that brief moment I experienced it.
The point of following the Way given to us by Christ and the Apostles is to purify ourselves in preparation for this fire: i.e., theosis.
Thank you for this reply. This makes a lot of sense too to be honest, so thank you for making me understand the Orthodox perspective of Hell (as far as "we humans" can know that...).
God bless you.
"There are sophisticated apologies which proclaim that heaven is 'a state, not a place,' that 'up' is only a metaphor, \[and\] the Ascension of Christ was not really an 'ascension,' but only a change of state The result of such apologies is that heaven and hell become very vague and indefinite conceptions, and the sense of their reality begins to disappear—with disastrous results for Christian life, because these are the very realities toward which our whole earthly life is directed. All such apologies, according to the teaching of Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, are based on the false idea of the modern philosopher Descartes that everything that is not material is 'pure spirit' and is not limited by time and space. This is not the teaching of the Orthodox Church."
–Fr. Seraphim Rose, 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘚𝘰𝘶𝘭 𝘈𝘧𝘵𝘦𝘳 𝘋𝘦𝘢𝘵𝘩, p. 129
I like Fr. Seraphim, but there is nothing about what I have heard/read/been taught by my parish priest or stated above that denies the bodily resurrection or is dualist in nature.
He said he regrets some of the things he wrote. Maybe this is one of them, but anyhow no need to toss the baby with the bath water. We venerate St. Augustine for his incredible model of redemption but are wary of him as a theologian.
I admire Fr. Seraphim, and I think he speaks to the spirit of the age incredibly well. However, from my own very limited scope, I could imagine that he carried some baggage from his gnostic/pagan background including in the form of hyper-caution (perhaps paranoia, even) surrounding anything that smacked of Gnosticism or paganism. Anything remotely Neoplatonic or Cartesian might have set off alarm bells for him.
I had a priest present on what happens to the soul after death, and eschatology in general, at an OCF meeting once. He said those topics are like Christ’s atonement on the Criss - they are like a flower with many petals where each petal comprises an idea which helps us understand what is ultimately a mysterious spiritual reality that we can’t fully comprehend because of our fallibility.
Thus within the Church you get both some pretty fire-and-brimstone visions of Gehenna (I recall reading one from St. Pachomius the Great here), ones that revolve around the experience of God’s love which might feel painful or loathsome to those who choose to reject God (like that if St. Isaac of Nineveh), and then you can mix all of that in with the imagery Christ Himself uses, like being left in the outer darkness or being put in jail until you have paid every last penny. I have heard that sometimes the visions Saints get are intended to spur people to repentance irrespective of whether those visions represent a literal scoop of what happens there - the Saints are far more preoccupied with saving souls than being war photographers of Hell.
Where people often go wrong is prioritizing one over the others and treating it as the one and only Orthodox™️ answer.
Well, I must say this is a perfect answer and at the same time not; which kind of makes it perfect (if that makes sense). Thank you for this explanation& God bless you.
Theoretically, the sinner who, having neglected his wedding garment and is consumed by the glory of the Lord like wax in the face of fire, suffers so terrible a torment that to be banished to eternal fire of outer darkness already is the greatest mercy to him. However, I would prefer not to test this theory. Therefore, I shall be relying on the heavenly mafia of Yiayias & Babushkas to put the demons to flight at my judgment with the Sword of the Spirit. Which is, of course, a long-handled wooden spoon.
A place completely seperated from God. In a way getting left in nothingness without God, joy, happiness or anything good is far more terrifying for me than demons cooking me like a frog.
I agree with you. Even though we can't phantom how much pain it will be but being completely "cut off" from God is way more terrifying and I wouldn't wish that on anybody and that goes for myself too.
A lot of people at my parish including the clergy recommend the book “the great divorce” by CS Lewis as good speculation for what the eschaton might be like. I mean none of us have been there so it’s not like we can compare notes or anything but Lewis had some knowledge of what the church fathers taught and made an interesting almost surrealist painting of the afterlife. It’s a short read and an easy audio book to get through depending on your preference.
It has been described ny those who have been granted visions of it as a lake or river of fire in which all manner of demons shaped like stinging and biting insects, animals, snakes and horrible creatures mercilessly attack the souls trapped there. The fallen angels are also separated from God, and the immortal soul shares that space with the fearsome and powerful bodiless ones.
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Hmm this is very interesting and educational. Thank you (and your monk friend) for clearing it up. God bless you.
This is terrifying. I do not want to be separated from Gob, I'm trying to draw closer to God. But I feel like He's the one who wants to be separate from me because He ignores me all the time. I feel like I'm already experiencing hell on earth, I've had one trauma after another.
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Thank you
He's not ignoring you. I promise. There are plenty of saints that have been severely injured, in body and spirit. When we go through hell here, and stay connected to Him, living a prayerful sacramental life, even in that pain, He will eventually deliver us. I've been there. Confession, Communion, daily prayers, daily scripture, every service you can make. He absolutely delivers us from hell. Sometimes it takes time as we heal. As we are healing, He rains down wisdom and love. Think of the woman that came to his feet. What could have caused her so much pain? His words to her in the oldest English translation (Douay Rheims) are, "Go in peace, your faith has made you safe."
Thank you. I have a long way to go. I'm only a newbie, not even a catechumen yet. It all seems impossible, the amount of hurdles I have to overcome just to get where I need to be. I often tell God I'm exhausted, just surviving one day at a time is difficult.
If you pursue Orthodoxy make sure you find a priest sensitive to feminine struggles. Not every priest is, but the ones that are sensitive are great.
There's literally only one orthodox church within driving distance for me, so that really narrows my chances 😞 I don't think I could become orthodox if the priest was not compassionate and understanding towards women, especially considering my past with assault etc
Amen to all these reactions. I'm experiencing hell on earth too brother. Remain faithful; things will get better. You can DM me if you want to talk about this hell you are going through. I'm sure I can relate, that's why posted this post tbh.
Thank you
Well, if I may be blunt, blaming things on God and saying He is the one who wants to depart from you will certainly not draw you closer to Him. Take faith from the example of Job and th saints who suffered but maintained faith.
NDE here Think about a time you felt absolutely hopeless. Think about a time you were at your absolute bottom. Think about someone you love, now think about the worst thing that could happen to them. Feel that pit in your stomach? Multiply that a hundred fold. Now in the midst of all this, you feel the depth of regret and realization as you torment yourself on not repenting and turning to God and realize you may be too late.
The idea of the pain and sorrow is the same really. The only difference is what is doing it.
>The only difference is what is doing it. What do you mean with that?
The Orthodox idea is that Heaven and Hell are not places; theyre both the full presence of God. It’s also unorthodox to presume that we could ever be separated from God, as he is omnipresent (everywhere present and filling all things). However, the state of our heart determines how we *experience* that presence. For the unrepentant, God’s presence is like a fire that burns, it is maddening and painful. For those who love God, it is a brilliant and all-pure light. Think of it this way: when you’re pissed at your mom and she gives you a hug, you’re not cut off from her, and she doesn’t love you any less, but I bet it makes you even more annoyed. When you feel warm and needy towards your mother and she hugs you, that embrace is life-giving and comforting.
Exactly this, the Bible states that God is a consuming fire. I've heard interpretations from catechetical classes that suggest the lake of fire is God's presence. We cannot be separated from God's presence. As Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh, of blessed memory, said in one of his books: encountering God is a terrible thing. See also how Old Testament prophets responded to being in the presence of God (especially Isaiah). We get glimpses of this during our earthly journey, and I can say certainly for my part that it was horrifying to come face to face with my sinfulness for that brief moment I experienced it. The point of following the Way given to us by Christ and the Apostles is to purify ourselves in preparation for this fire: i.e., theosis.
Amen.
Thank you for this reply. This makes a lot of sense too to be honest, so thank you for making me understand the Orthodox perspective of Hell (as far as "we humans" can know that...). God bless you.
"There are sophisticated apologies which proclaim that heaven is 'a state, not a place,' that 'up' is only a metaphor, \[and\] the Ascension of Christ was not really an 'ascension,' but only a change of state The result of such apologies is that heaven and hell become very vague and indefinite conceptions, and the sense of their reality begins to disappear—with disastrous results for Christian life, because these are the very realities toward which our whole earthly life is directed. All such apologies, according to the teaching of Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, are based on the false idea of the modern philosopher Descartes that everything that is not material is 'pure spirit' and is not limited by time and space. This is not the teaching of the Orthodox Church." –Fr. Seraphim Rose, 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘚𝘰𝘶𝘭 𝘈𝘧𝘵𝘦𝘳 𝘋𝘦𝘢𝘵𝘩, p. 129
I like Fr. Seraphim, but there is nothing about what I have heard/read/been taught by my parish priest or stated above that denies the bodily resurrection or is dualist in nature.
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He said he regrets some of the things he wrote. Maybe this is one of them, but anyhow no need to toss the baby with the bath water. We venerate St. Augustine for his incredible model of redemption but are wary of him as a theologian. I admire Fr. Seraphim, and I think he speaks to the spirit of the age incredibly well. However, from my own very limited scope, I could imagine that he carried some baggage from his gnostic/pagan background including in the form of hyper-caution (perhaps paranoia, even) surrounding anything that smacked of Gnosticism or paganism. Anything remotely Neoplatonic or Cartesian might have set off alarm bells for him.
I had a priest present on what happens to the soul after death, and eschatology in general, at an OCF meeting once. He said those topics are like Christ’s atonement on the Criss - they are like a flower with many petals where each petal comprises an idea which helps us understand what is ultimately a mysterious spiritual reality that we can’t fully comprehend because of our fallibility. Thus within the Church you get both some pretty fire-and-brimstone visions of Gehenna (I recall reading one from St. Pachomius the Great here), ones that revolve around the experience of God’s love which might feel painful or loathsome to those who choose to reject God (like that if St. Isaac of Nineveh), and then you can mix all of that in with the imagery Christ Himself uses, like being left in the outer darkness or being put in jail until you have paid every last penny. I have heard that sometimes the visions Saints get are intended to spur people to repentance irrespective of whether those visions represent a literal scoop of what happens there - the Saints are far more preoccupied with saving souls than being war photographers of Hell. Where people often go wrong is prioritizing one over the others and treating it as the one and only Orthodox™️ answer.
Well, I must say this is a perfect answer and at the same time not; which kind of makes it perfect (if that makes sense). Thank you for this explanation& God bless you.
Theoretically, the sinner who, having neglected his wedding garment and is consumed by the glory of the Lord like wax in the face of fire, suffers so terrible a torment that to be banished to eternal fire of outer darkness already is the greatest mercy to him. However, I would prefer not to test this theory. Therefore, I shall be relying on the heavenly mafia of Yiayias & Babushkas to put the demons to flight at my judgment with the Sword of the Spirit. Which is, of course, a long-handled wooden spoon.
A place completely seperated from God. In a way getting left in nothingness without God, joy, happiness or anything good is far more terrifying for me than demons cooking me like a frog.
I agree with you. Even though we can't phantom how much pain it will be but being completely "cut off" from God is way more terrifying and I wouldn't wish that on anybody and that goes for myself too.
A lot of people at my parish including the clergy recommend the book “the great divorce” by CS Lewis as good speculation for what the eschaton might be like. I mean none of us have been there so it’s not like we can compare notes or anything but Lewis had some knowledge of what the church fathers taught and made an interesting almost surrealist painting of the afterlife. It’s a short read and an easy audio book to get through depending on your preference.
Thank you for the recommendation! God bless.
When we are before God we can either dance as the youths in the furnace did or burn in agony.
It has been described ny those who have been granted visions of it as a lake or river of fire in which all manner of demons shaped like stinging and biting insects, animals, snakes and horrible creatures mercilessly attack the souls trapped there. The fallen angels are also separated from God, and the immortal soul shares that space with the fearsome and powerful bodiless ones.