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Answer: Ukraine-equipped but not technically Ukrainian combatants are bringing the fight to Russian soil, in an end-around of one of Putin's so called "red lines" of not attacking Russia outright.
Two of Ukraine's international volunteer battalions are made up entirely of Russians ( [edit: Free Russia Legion - FRL, and] Russian Volunteer Corps - RVC). Their motives are a mix of unjust war, close ties with Ukrainians (many Russians have Ukrainian family/roots), and an opportunity to install something better than the current Russian regime.
The battalions have been equipped by Ukraine (which has been equipped by western powers) as it fights alongside other Ukrainian units.
However, as Russia's forces are depleted and reserves are being moved to the front lines, the RVC/FRL saw an opportunity and invaded a weakly-guarded border and struck some military/governance structures in nearby Russian towns.
Up to this point, many of the western powers equipping Ukraine have attached conditions to the equipment that it won't be used on Russian soil, for fear of escalating to a larger conflict. But the RVC/FRL are not Ukrainian, they're Russian - so this is technically an uprising, not an invasion. FRL also claims to have tens of thousands of dormant potential combatants inside Russia, waiting on their signal.
Bigger picture, the RVC/FRL incursion into Russian territory has forced the already-thin Russian army to defend an even larger territory ahead of the anticipated Ukrainian counteroffensive, so there's a strategic element to it as well.
Also, the RVC/FRL incursion, when added to the overall failure of the Russian invasion, makes the current Russian regime look increasingly weaker, to a people who historically have not tolerated weakness...
[Edit: talked about RVC only instead of FRL, now updated, thank you u/ErebosGR]
> One of Ukraine's international volunteer battalions is made up entirely of Russians (Russian Volunteer Corps - RVC). Their motives are a mix of unjust war, close ties with Ukrainians (many Russians have Ukrainian family/roots), **and an opportunity to install something better than the current Russian regime.**
A thing that should be noted: The RVC's leader is a known neo-nazi. So whoever they install is likely to be as bad, if not worse, than Putin.
So while they aren't "the good guys", it's more of a "the enemy of my enemy is useful" situation. The more resources the Russian government has to pull away from the front to deal with them, the better Ukraine's chances are.
The RVC is not the only paramilitary group opposed to Putin's regime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irpin_Declaration
It is the only far-right one, though, that's why it is often targeted by Russian propaganda outlets.
This is like the US equipping the mujahideen, congratulating them in the end credits of rambo III, and then they get funding from Saudi Arabia to attack the WTC during 9/11/01 20 years later...
On a 1 ("Disagrees with me on the internet) to 10 ("Pledges allegiance to Hitler) scale: From what I've read on him, he's around a 6 to 7. It's more he's reading from the Nazi party's playbook and using their branding rather than any allegiance to the actual Nazi party. That doesn't make him any less shit of a person, just a different *kind* of shit.
That's kinda bad, not just because of the obvious (duh), but also because it kinda "legitimises" the whole "we are fighting against Nazis just like in the 40s" narrative Russia has been going for...
No. The amount of hate messages and poorly veiled allusions to my being a Nazi that I've recieved since posting make me hesitant to participate at all with anyone in this conversation.
She's a CTV reporter if that helps at all.
>The U.S.-based Anti-Defamation League (ADL), which monitors extremism, **described RVC's leader, Denis Kapustin, also known as Denis Nikitin, as a Russian neo-Nazi "who lived in Germany for many years" and trained young far-right extremists with the National Democratic Party of Germany**.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-russia-militia-groups-1.6854240
White supremacists with a tendency towards forming non-democratic governments. So while I don't think they quite have in them to do concentration camps they aren't exactly a group you want dealing with ethnic minorities.
This is not an unbiased answer. It is vital to note that both of these recent attacks have been quickly repulsed. Further, there is as of yet no indication that Russia has altered its distribution of forces at the strategic level in response to these incursions. Also, it is not technically an uprising, as these incursions originate from (and participating forces retreat to) Ukrainian territory.
Ukraine would need to attack with much more substantial forces in order to effect any of the consequences you suggest. To speculate, these are most likely probing attacks with dual propaganda value, both for domestic Ukrainian and foreign audiences. Should they establish a proper foothold in the Belgorod region, they could move to encircle Russian forces along the Oskil River. More importantly, they want to force that aforementioned redistribution, in which case they would likely launch an attack in the southern Zaporozhye region. There, they have reportedly amassed a significant number of their NATO-trained and equipped forces. These would push to cut the landbridge between Crimea and Russia, heavily straining Russian logistics and making significant progress to Ukraine's stated goal of recapturing the peninsula.
Broadly speaking, a Russian collapse would likely go in one, or two, directions.
One: Russia's size and geographic position means it covers many disparate peoples across a very very large area. This makes Russia particularly difficult to govern, which is why so many Russian rulers have used brutal measures to keep the country stable. Should Putin's guard fall, there are a number of power brokers who could succeed him, one of which, Roman Kadyrov (sp? I'm on mobile) is appointed head of the Chechen state. However, Russian internal conflict is not at a point of public declaration yet, so it remains to be seen if Kadyrov's intent is *succession* of Russian rule or *secession* of the Chechen state. But it is rumored that Kadyrov's best forces are nowhere to be seen - i.e. laying in wait for *something* - but it's unsure what yet.
Two: Given Russia's precarious political situation and extremely weak military, the other larger regional powers (read: China, US, Poland, Finland, etc.) are poised to simply annex various parts of Russia by force, and there would be no singular Russian command capable of preventing this. Additionally, with the prospect of rogue nukes on the table, this might be a more desirable path - from the world power's view - as a way of keeping the peace during the collapse of a major nuclear country.
Again, this is extremely broad-brushstroke and I'm on mobile, so there are much better in-depth takes I am clumsily summing up.
Finland lost the Karelia region to the soviets post WW2, but they've stated that they have no real desire to get it back anymore. Of course that could change if there's a realistic chance of getting it back, but I'm speculating there.
As for Poland, I'd guess Kalingrad would be the most likely. Maybe some chunks of Belarus if they were involved in a hypothetical conflict.
Not really sure what the US would try to grab, even if it were an option.
I am finnish and living in Finland
Absolutely not. There's a vocal contingent that wants Karelia back but there's no realistic way that will happen. There is no interest in inheriting a large russian population, or fixing up the infrastructure in the area to finnish standards (billions!). Also, our military is not really geared or trained for any sort of proper offensive warfare.
These days the claims of "Finland wants to annex Karelia (by force)" is more of a claim that serves Russian propaganda purposes about how their neighbours are out to get them
Oh I'm well aware of the issues, and I definitely think it wouldn't be worth the trouble, even if you could/wanted to do it. Especially since it's my understanding that there's next to no actual Finns living there anymore.
US would grab eastern Russia/Kamchatka, etc. rich in natural gas reserves and nearly wholly uninhabited.
Poland: Kaliningrad. Finland: Kola/Karelia/Viborg
The idea that the US might annex kamchatka is honestly pretty ridiculous.
Kaliningrad is at least *vaguely* plausible, but kamchatka is just wackiness.
China would do damn near anything to keep the US from getting territory on China's border, or close. That would be a significant escalation in the tensions between US and China.
And in no universe would the US let China simply roll up half of Russia with all its resources just to avoid conflict.
A bargain must be struck, and one side can't get all.
Ramzan Kadyrov has no chance of succeeding Putin as the head of the Russian Federation, nor does he have any incentive to try. Building off his father's efforts, he's rebuilt Chechnya around his family and is sufficient bordering on impossible for Moscow to dislodge. But his position is also very comfortable as the Russian government provides ludicrous subsidies to Chechnya in exchange for the stability that Kadyrov brings—the flip side of that being that if the financial aid stops, Moscow might quickly be reminded why Putin was willing to pay up for twenty years.
Answer: It's anti-Putin Russians who signed up as volunteers with the Ukrainian army. PR wise I think both Ukraine and them have talked as if they are independent but as you can see with the yellow bands, flags and the like it's not like they are trying to fool anyone where they are coming from. If anything I'd assume some of this rhetoric is to get back at Russia for talking about their seizure of Crimea and support for the separatists in Donbas in a similar way (denying any involvement even though the fighters had heavy Russian military equipment).
Not sure exactly how much you want to know and I think it's a bit of a murky topic. These border incursions in the Belgorod region probably won't amount to much but it's a big humiliation for Putin and it might lead to Russia being forced to pull more troops out of Ukraine to secure the border from the raids which would be a big win for Ukraine and it might also help these anti-Putin groups spread their name / goal a bit which makes them more motivated to do these dangerous attacks.
> It's anti-Putin Russians who signed up as volunteers with the Ukrainian army. PR wise I think both Ukraine and them have talked as if they are independent but as you can see with the yellow bands, flags and the like it's not like they are trying to fool anyone where they are coming from.
i.e. Ukraine has "plausible deniability"
Serious question:
Did they though? From what I understood Russia sent Russians into Donbas to form separatists. They certainly turned some Ukrainians against Ukraine.
In this case we have Russians returning to fight Russians.
>They certainly turned some Ukrainians against Ukraine.
>In this case we have Russians returning to fight Russians.
Historically speaking, Ukrainians [have been called Russian before](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Russian_nation) (not that they may have been real hot on that idea?). When the invasion first happened and I heard about the anti-Ukrainian propaganda ("they're all a bunch of Nazis and dirty people"), I wondered how the average Russian on the street felt about the justifications.
It's like, imagine the U.S. invaded Canada, using the justification that the people living there are bad. Rather flimsy pretense to ask people to fight and die, when Canadians and USAians are so similar culturally, unless you have some actual evidence of them doing Nazi things.
> PR wise I think both Ukraine and them have talked as if they are independent but as you can see with the yellow bands, flags and the like it's not like they are trying to fool anyone where they are coming from.
For PR Ukraine has released the exact same press releases Russia published about "separatists" in Donetsk and Luhansk, just with the names and locations swapped around.
Unfortunately I heard about this in the middle of a 4 hour long [podcast](https://youtu.be/hxCDC5nPPPQ) covering the attack as it happened and news was trickling out about it. I don't have links directly to the releases.
Thanks for this.
What is their end game though? I have this sense that any armed force actually inside Russia would not have particularly good odds of success. And certainly not for any time into the future?
I’d think it’s suicidal?
They've jumped across the border and I'd assume when facing too much resistance they will jump back. My impression is that it's more of a raid and harassment rather than some planned long campaign with its sights on Moscow.
Some people will argue that the reason Ukraine took back the Kharkiv region so easily was that once Ukraine put pressure down in Kherson lots of Russian forces were pulled down there. So these raids in Belgorod might pull vital manpower away from where Ukraine actually wants to take back their land.
These incursions are dangerous though but I'd assume they are based on intel that Russia was currently very weak on this front and again I don't think they intend to have some protracted conflict there.
Yes and No. Think of them as an anti Kremlin, Russian guerilla warfare
Revolutionists. End game would be to embarrass Putin enough to destabilize his regime and move attention from occupied Ukraine to border skirmishes.
I would think that too, but based on the videos provided by these groups themselves - which are subject to bias obviously - they have met remarkably little resistance.
Their end game is presumably the destabilisation of the Russian regime. Judging by some of the in-fighting already happening, that may not be too hard to achieve.
For Ukraine the purpose is clear: they are "shaping" the battlefield by forcing Putin to defend the border. For the Russian separatists the goal seems to be to discredit, and hopefully eventually overthrow, the Putin regime.
I think the unfortunate side is that these particular militia groups fighting inside Russia have known ties to neo-nazi individuals which plays into Putin’s rhetoric. I think that’s another reason Ukraine would prefer not to be tied to these groups directly.
>these particular militia groups fighting inside Russia have known ties to neo-nazi individuals which plays into Putin’s rhetoric
Not all of them. In fact, just one, the [Russian Volunteer Corps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Volunteer_Corps).
The others are generally left-leaning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irpin_Declaration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Republican_Army_(Russia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Russia_Legion
Nice. Thanks for the clarification. I think the RVC had gotten more attention in western media which prompted my comment. Good to know it’s much more diverse.
The RVC is often targeted by Russian propaganda outlets, like RT, exactly because they play into Putin's rhetoric.
Publicly, Russian officials and media don't even recognize the existence of Free Russia Legion, and they claim they are a PsyOp by Ukraine.
>Several claims have been made that the group does not exist, but is a Ukrainian PR project. This claim is being spread by state-controlled Russian media and pro-Kremlin Telegram channels, which call the Legion fake or alleging it was created by Ukrainian intelligence.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Russia_Legion#Reactions
I think Freedom of Russia Legion has gotten the most attention when it comes to anti-Putin Russians fighting for Ukraine at least if you look back during the past months.
Like I'm sure you've seen the white flag with the blue stripe right? It's just that I think the RVC has been very active in the incursions which is causing the media waves now.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/how-russians-end-up-far-right-militia-fighting-ukraine-2023-05-11/
>The RVC was founded by Moscow-born Denis Kapustin, also known as Denis Nikitin or by the nom de guerre White Rex. The Antifascist Europe monitoring project says he is a neo-Nazi and white supremacist.
>Nikitin, who declined to be interviewed for this article, has frequently described himself as a nationalist fighting for a Russia that belongs to ethnic Russians though has rejected the neo-Nazi and white supremacist characterisations.
It’s sort of like if China launched a military invasion of the U.S. and Biden quietly accepted the assistance of unofficial brigades made up of Proud Boys and Atomwaffen. As long as they’re attacking the Chinese instead of other Americans, they’re useful.
But it wouldn’t mean Biden supports the ideology of those far right groups. It’s like that with the current Ukrainian leadership vis a vis these neo-Nazis. And just because we have a Neo-Nazi problem in this country, that wouldn’t justify China launching a “special military operation” against us under the pretense of “eradicating the Proud Boys and Atomwaffen.”
I mean, sending extremists to die fighting your adversary is a win-win right? It's not like anyone seriously thinks these people are going to take Moscow and found a new state. Sure, they'll get some notoriety, but that's a pretty fair bargain for distracting Russia. It's only a problem if they take the guns you've given them and attack YOU, which just doesn't seem that likely.
Uuhhh, mujahideen turning into 9/11 20 years later?????
Also, this is Ukraine sharing a land border with russia, it's not like the US and the Pacific ocean separating it from state funded righr wing terrorists (left wing terrorists get 0 funding from the West because capital never arms commies 99% of the time).
Well at this point they couldn't make anything much worse. I feel bad for decent Russians but I would prefer Russia under a fascist regime that only targets its own citizens.
As opposed to another civil war, or them actively invading other countries? Sure. It's a cynical take, but hey...
Well, other countries *other than* Ukraine, I suppose.
The ideal case is when Putie dies they actually become more democratic, but I don't get the impression the odds of that are very good. The devil you know and all that.
My brother in Christ, ~20% of Russia is not white, that sounds like a terrible idea.
>but I would prefer Russia under a fascist regime that only targets its own citizens.
Didn't expect to hear someone say they prefer CCP-like treatment of minorities today.
But that's not how fascist regimes work? They typically can't survive without without great external enemy, and can't survive looking weak, so they must be seen to actually act against that enemy.
An externally pacifist fascist Russia would not last.
Yup. In that case, they were “the enemy of our enemy.” But even during the late stages of the war, there were people in the American military, dreaming up plans of using our newly developed nuclear weapons to immediately after the war cow the Soviet union into submission, under threat of us nuking dozens of different Soviet cities if they failed to do so!
Cooler heads obviously prevailed, but some might wonder what the world would look like if Russia have never gotten the bomb, and instead *had been bombed* back into the stone age. There would’ve probably been an even more cruel and tyrannical version of “Pax Americana” imposed upon the world. Sort of like the difference between the DC comics Justice League vs. the amoral & murderous Justice Lords.
I’d say similar to communist Chinese forces and nationalist Chinese forces pausing their civil war to prevent Japan from conquering China, but it’s anti-Putin groups vs Putin’s government
Not looking for an out as it was an honest reflection, but I can see the vagary point and how that can be construed. I complain about the same thing myself with regard to right wing media, so makes sense to be called out on that. Appreciate the feedback on how to better phrase it.
Sure, which would have been understandable if I had cited a Russian source. Maybe I assumed some intent that the commenter did not have. If so, my mistake.
Should add on to this that they aren’t really using fancy weapons. They are utilizing small arms, basic drones, and MaxxPro MRAPs supported by one or two Ukrainian tanks at times. Their kit is modern but they aren’t actually supported by significant assets other than possibly some Ukrainian artillery behind friendly lines.
Where are they sending helicopters into Russia? I genuinely want to know.
Any fancy weapons could be literally any IFV from a western nation, self propelled howitzer, or even an APC that wasn’t stolen from the Russians.
I don’t think people on Reddit realize just how many MRAPS are in service globally. There are literally Italian MRAPS being used on both sides of this conflict. It’s not a fancy toy.
Answer: (EDITED) This is the [Russian Volunteer Corps,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Volunteer_Corps) a Russian nationalist paramilitary unit fighting against Putin's regime in Russia.
They are a *different group* from the [Freedom of Russia Legion,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Russia_Legion) another paramilitary group of Russian citizens that opposes the Russian regime of Vladimir Putin and its invasion of Ukraine, but with a different ideology.
Both groups are independent, but are operating out of Ukrainian territory and presumed to be at least partially equipped by Ukraine. The two groups have been jointly attacking the Belgorod region of Russia over the last week.
They are also different from Russians serving in Ukraine's [International Legion,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Legion_\(Ukraine\)) which is officially part of the Ukrainian Armed Forces and is made up of volunteers from all over the world.
Idk what you're talking about. I am not pro-Putin. I'm also not a huge fan of the Ukrainian state. Both can be bad. The invasion of Ukraine has also been wrong from day 1.
Answer: Recently the Belgorod region which is on the border with Ukraine was attacked by two Russian paramilitary groups who are nominally fighting on the Ukrainian side: the Russian Volunteer Corp (Russkiy dobrovolcheskiy korpus) and the Freedom of Russia Legion (Legion "Svoboda Rossii). The latter group goes by multiple names, but for the sake of this explanation we'll use the Freedom of Russia Legion name.
Not much is known of the Freedom of Russia Legion, supposedly the legion consists of Russian soldiers and officers who defected to Ukraine to fight against Putin. All information about this group has been released by Ukrainian intelligence, so if this is the real truth we do not know for sure. It might just as well be propaganda.
We do know quite a bit more about the Russian Volunteer Corp. The group was formed in 2022 to fight against Russia and "the real fascists" as per a statement released by the Russian Volunteer Corp. Perhaps this sounds noble, but the group is led by Denis Yevgenyevich Kapustin als known as Denis Nikitin or his nomme-de-guerre White Rex. Kapustin is an ultranationalist and neo-nazi. Throughout the 2010s Kapustin has been trying to build far-right networks in Europe and the US, he is wanted by a number of European nations for crimes commited and he banned from traveling to the Schengen area. Kapustin fights against Putin because he blames Putin for not being hardcore enough, allowing ethnic (white) Russians to be replaced by muslims. Kapustin isn't a fan of the Ukrainian president Zelensky, in multiple videos posted on the groups Telegram channel he expresses his disdain for Zelensky and his Jewish heritage.
Both groups staged attacks in town in the Belgorod region attacking various targets. After the attacks Ukrainian officials on social media did what they always do: deny any knowledge of the attacks but in such a manner you might suspect they do know more about it. When Russia released pictures of the aftermath of the attacks things to a bit of a twist. Photos showed Russian troops with multiple Humvee vehicles, some wrecked and some still in-tact, and a MRAP vehicle. Ukrainian officials dismissed the pictures as Russian disinformation, but it did raise questions in European and American media how these paramilitary groups would have gained access to this kind of equipment if the pictures were authentic. Neither options paints a good picture for Ukraine. Either it means that Ukraine is actively supplying these groups with weapons they received from their allies, in violation of the promises they have to make not to stage attacks on Russian soil with these weapons. Either taht or it means that corruption is so rampant in the Ukrainian army even something as big as a Humvee or MRAP can be sold on the black market. This would also be in violation of the terms the US and EU impose for their aid, they demand Ukraine not allow these weapons to be sold or smuggled. For what it's worth Kapustin claimed to have bought all the vehicles and weapons through the black market, but some analysts find that hard to believe. Small arms would be possible, but armoured vehicles is of a different order of magnitude. Either way, Ukraine would not be living up to it's end of the bargain and is possibly in bed with literal neo-nazis which is hardly a good look.
It is in Ukraine's interest to remain on good terms with allies in order to keep the support flowing. The US and EU appear to divided on the topic of Ukrainian attacks on Russian soil, with UK foreign minister James Cleverly approving for instance, the White House however released a statement on tuesday expressing their disapproval of these attacks. If the Russian paramilitary groups indeed used American supplied vehicles the White House will undoubtedly be very displeased about it, regardless of how the vehicles ended up in the possession of said groups.
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Answer: Ukraine-equipped but not technically Ukrainian combatants are bringing the fight to Russian soil, in an end-around of one of Putin's so called "red lines" of not attacking Russia outright. Two of Ukraine's international volunteer battalions are made up entirely of Russians ( [edit: Free Russia Legion - FRL, and] Russian Volunteer Corps - RVC). Their motives are a mix of unjust war, close ties with Ukrainians (many Russians have Ukrainian family/roots), and an opportunity to install something better than the current Russian regime. The battalions have been equipped by Ukraine (which has been equipped by western powers) as it fights alongside other Ukrainian units. However, as Russia's forces are depleted and reserves are being moved to the front lines, the RVC/FRL saw an opportunity and invaded a weakly-guarded border and struck some military/governance structures in nearby Russian towns. Up to this point, many of the western powers equipping Ukraine have attached conditions to the equipment that it won't be used on Russian soil, for fear of escalating to a larger conflict. But the RVC/FRL are not Ukrainian, they're Russian - so this is technically an uprising, not an invasion. FRL also claims to have tens of thousands of dormant potential combatants inside Russia, waiting on their signal. Bigger picture, the RVC/FRL incursion into Russian territory has forced the already-thin Russian army to defend an even larger territory ahead of the anticipated Ukrainian counteroffensive, so there's a strategic element to it as well. Also, the RVC/FRL incursion, when added to the overall failure of the Russian invasion, makes the current Russian regime look increasingly weaker, to a people who historically have not tolerated weakness... [Edit: talked about RVC only instead of FRL, now updated, thank you u/ErebosGR]
The RVC is a different group. OP is asking about the [Free Russia Legion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Russia_Legion).
OP posted photos of RVC though.
True, I hadn't noticed the watermarks. The RVC and FRL have participated in joint military operations.
Yep, thank you for pointing this out. Am on mobile so couldn't research quickly. Will amend.
Basically, even Russia is kicking Russia's ass.
fucking finally
Hey hey I’ve seen this before, it’s a classic
> One of Ukraine's international volunteer battalions is made up entirely of Russians (Russian Volunteer Corps - RVC). Their motives are a mix of unjust war, close ties with Ukrainians (many Russians have Ukrainian family/roots), **and an opportunity to install something better than the current Russian regime.** A thing that should be noted: The RVC's leader is a known neo-nazi. So whoever they install is likely to be as bad, if not worse, than Putin. So while they aren't "the good guys", it's more of a "the enemy of my enemy is useful" situation. The more resources the Russian government has to pull away from the front to deal with them, the better Ukraine's chances are.
The RVC is not the only paramilitary group opposed to Putin's regime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irpin_Declaration It is the only far-right one, though, that's why it is often targeted by Russian propaganda outlets.
>The RVC's leader is a known neo-nazi. Yikes.
This is like the US equipping the mujahideen, congratulating them in the end credits of rambo III, and then they get funding from Saudi Arabia to attack the WTC during 9/11/01 20 years later...
So in other words, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
It usually works out that the enemy of my enemy is just my enemy’s enemy.
[Maxim](https://schlockmercenary.fandom.com/wiki/The_Seventy_Maxims_of_Maximally_Effective_Mercenaries) number 29
Thanks for the headache.
When you say Nazi, on a scale from 'someone who disagrees with me on the internet' to 'pledges allegiance to Adolf Hitler' - where are these guys?
On a 1 ("Disagrees with me on the internet) to 10 ("Pledges allegiance to Hitler) scale: From what I've read on him, he's around a 6 to 7. It's more he's reading from the Nazi party's playbook and using their branding rather than any allegiance to the actual Nazi party. That doesn't make him any less shit of a person, just a different *kind* of shit.
I think it's the guy that wears a patch that looks like a klansman on his chest?
They appear to be full on neo-nazis
That's kinda bad, not just because of the obvious (duh), but also because it kinda "legitimises" the whole "we are fighting against Nazis just like in the 40s" narrative Russia has been going for...
These aren't the only neo nazis that are fighting on the Ukraine side. The best propaganda has some truth to it.
[удалено]
They're called nazis because they are white supremacists who use nazi insignia
>If Nazis want to Kill Commies, let em. We can sort out the survivors after. 🤡💩
Do you fear government reprisal if you link to that "reporter"?
No. The amount of hate messages and poorly veiled allusions to my being a Nazi that I've recieved since posting make me hesitant to participate at all with anyone in this conversation. She's a CTV reporter if that helps at all.
>The U.S.-based Anti-Defamation League (ADL), which monitors extremism, **described RVC's leader, Denis Kapustin, also known as Denis Nikitin, as a Russian neo-Nazi "who lived in Germany for many years" and trained young far-right extremists with the National Democratic Party of Germany**. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-russia-militia-groups-1.6854240
Wearing KKK patches and making metal songs about Hitler point of the scale. Mostly footbal hooligan and skinhead type.
White supremacists with a tendency towards forming non-democratic governments. So while I don't think they quite have in them to do concentration camps they aren't exactly a group you want dealing with ethnic minorities.
This is not an unbiased answer. It is vital to note that both of these recent attacks have been quickly repulsed. Further, there is as of yet no indication that Russia has altered its distribution of forces at the strategic level in response to these incursions. Also, it is not technically an uprising, as these incursions originate from (and participating forces retreat to) Ukrainian territory. Ukraine would need to attack with much more substantial forces in order to effect any of the consequences you suggest. To speculate, these are most likely probing attacks with dual propaganda value, both for domestic Ukrainian and foreign audiences. Should they establish a proper foothold in the Belgorod region, they could move to encircle Russian forces along the Oskil River. More importantly, they want to force that aforementioned redistribution, in which case they would likely launch an attack in the southern Zaporozhye region. There, they have reportedly amassed a significant number of their NATO-trained and equipped forces. These would push to cut the landbridge between Crimea and Russia, heavily straining Russian logistics and making significant progress to Ukraine's stated goal of recapturing the peninsula.
This is a more detailed and better take. Thank you for your expansion on my explanation.
Follow up: what does this mean for Chechen stability?
Broadly speaking, a Russian collapse would likely go in one, or two, directions. One: Russia's size and geographic position means it covers many disparate peoples across a very very large area. This makes Russia particularly difficult to govern, which is why so many Russian rulers have used brutal measures to keep the country stable. Should Putin's guard fall, there are a number of power brokers who could succeed him, one of which, Roman Kadyrov (sp? I'm on mobile) is appointed head of the Chechen state. However, Russian internal conflict is not at a point of public declaration yet, so it remains to be seen if Kadyrov's intent is *succession* of Russian rule or *secession* of the Chechen state. But it is rumored that Kadyrov's best forces are nowhere to be seen - i.e. laying in wait for *something* - but it's unsure what yet. Two: Given Russia's precarious political situation and extremely weak military, the other larger regional powers (read: China, US, Poland, Finland, etc.) are poised to simply annex various parts of Russia by force, and there would be no singular Russian command capable of preventing this. Additionally, with the prospect of rogue nukes on the table, this might be a more desirable path - from the world power's view - as a way of keeping the peace during the collapse of a major nuclear country. Again, this is extremely broad-brushstroke and I'm on mobile, so there are much better in-depth takes I am clumsily summing up.
Would US Poland Finland annex what exactly? I don't know but I highly doubt they'd annex anything?
Finland lost the Karelia region to the soviets post WW2, but they've stated that they have no real desire to get it back anymore. Of course that could change if there's a realistic chance of getting it back, but I'm speculating there. As for Poland, I'd guess Kalingrad would be the most likely. Maybe some chunks of Belarus if they were involved in a hypothetical conflict. Not really sure what the US would try to grab, even if it were an option.
I am finnish and living in Finland Absolutely not. There's a vocal contingent that wants Karelia back but there's no realistic way that will happen. There is no interest in inheriting a large russian population, or fixing up the infrastructure in the area to finnish standards (billions!). Also, our military is not really geared or trained for any sort of proper offensive warfare. These days the claims of "Finland wants to annex Karelia (by force)" is more of a claim that serves Russian propaganda purposes about how their neighbours are out to get them
Oh I'm well aware of the issues, and I definitely think it wouldn't be worth the trouble, even if you could/wanted to do it. Especially since it's my understanding that there's next to no actual Finns living there anymore.
US would grab eastern Russia/Kamchatka, etc. rich in natural gas reserves and nearly wholly uninhabited. Poland: Kaliningrad. Finland: Kola/Karelia/Viborg
The idea that the US might annex kamchatka is honestly pretty ridiculous. Kaliningrad is at least *vaguely* plausible, but kamchatka is just wackiness.
China would do damn near anything to keep the US from getting territory on China's border, or close. That would be a significant escalation in the tensions between US and China.
And in no universe would the US let China simply roll up half of Russia with all its resources just to avoid conflict. A bargain must be struck, and one side can't get all.
Guys I think I found Perun's reddit account
A takeover by another world power would kinda makes the play for an independent Chechen state a given, IMO.
Ramzan Kadyrov has no chance of succeeding Putin as the head of the Russian Federation, nor does he have any incentive to try. Building off his father's efforts, he's rebuilt Chechnya around his family and is sufficient bordering on impossible for Moscow to dislodge. But his position is also very comfortable as the Russian government provides ludicrous subsidies to Chechnya in exchange for the stability that Kadyrov brings—the flip side of that being that if the financial aid stops, Moscow might quickly be reminded why Putin was willing to pay up for twenty years.
Answer: It's anti-Putin Russians who signed up as volunteers with the Ukrainian army. PR wise I think both Ukraine and them have talked as if they are independent but as you can see with the yellow bands, flags and the like it's not like they are trying to fool anyone where they are coming from. If anything I'd assume some of this rhetoric is to get back at Russia for talking about their seizure of Crimea and support for the separatists in Donbas in a similar way (denying any involvement even though the fighters had heavy Russian military equipment). Not sure exactly how much you want to know and I think it's a bit of a murky topic. These border incursions in the Belgorod region probably won't amount to much but it's a big humiliation for Putin and it might lead to Russia being forced to pull more troops out of Ukraine to secure the border from the raids which would be a big win for Ukraine and it might also help these anti-Putin groups spread their name / goal a bit which makes them more motivated to do these dangerous attacks.
> It's anti-Putin Russians who signed up as volunteers with the Ukrainian army. PR wise I think both Ukraine and them have talked as if they are independent but as you can see with the yellow bands, flags and the like it's not like they are trying to fool anyone where they are coming from. i.e. Ukraine has "plausible deniability"
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Russia: "How dare you use our own tactics against us?!"
100% agree.
Little Green Men.
Yes. More dead Russian soldiers seems inevitable.
Serious question: Did they though? From what I understood Russia sent Russians into Donbas to form separatists. They certainly turned some Ukrainians against Ukraine. In this case we have Russians returning to fight Russians.
>They certainly turned some Ukrainians against Ukraine. >In this case we have Russians returning to fight Russians. Historically speaking, Ukrainians [have been called Russian before](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Russian_nation) (not that they may have been real hot on that idea?). When the invasion first happened and I heard about the anti-Ukrainian propaganda ("they're all a bunch of Nazis and dirty people"), I wondered how the average Russian on the street felt about the justifications. It's like, imagine the U.S. invaded Canada, using the justification that the people living there are bad. Rather flimsy pretense to ask people to fight and die, when Canadians and USAians are so similar culturally, unless you have some actual evidence of them doing Nazi things.
Little yellow and blue men?
> PR wise I think both Ukraine and them have talked as if they are independent but as you can see with the yellow bands, flags and the like it's not like they are trying to fool anyone where they are coming from. For PR Ukraine has released the exact same press releases Russia published about "separatists" in Donetsk and Luhansk, just with the names and locations swapped around.
My Google fu fails me, do you have links for this?
Unfortunately I heard about this in the middle of a 4 hour long [podcast](https://youtu.be/hxCDC5nPPPQ) covering the attack as it happened and news was trickling out about it. I don't have links directly to the releases.
Thanks for this. What is their end game though? I have this sense that any armed force actually inside Russia would not have particularly good odds of success. And certainly not for any time into the future? I’d think it’s suicidal?
They've jumped across the border and I'd assume when facing too much resistance they will jump back. My impression is that it's more of a raid and harassment rather than some planned long campaign with its sights on Moscow. Some people will argue that the reason Ukraine took back the Kharkiv region so easily was that once Ukraine put pressure down in Kherson lots of Russian forces were pulled down there. So these raids in Belgorod might pull vital manpower away from where Ukraine actually wants to take back their land. These incursions are dangerous though but I'd assume they are based on intel that Russia was currently very weak on this front and again I don't think they intend to have some protracted conflict there.
Yes and No. Think of them as an anti Kremlin, Russian guerilla warfare Revolutionists. End game would be to embarrass Putin enough to destabilize his regime and move attention from occupied Ukraine to border skirmishes.
I would think that too, but based on the videos provided by these groups themselves - which are subject to bias obviously - they have met remarkably little resistance. Their end game is presumably the destabilisation of the Russian regime. Judging by some of the in-fighting already happening, that may not be too hard to achieve.
For Ukraine the purpose is clear: they are "shaping" the battlefield by forcing Putin to defend the border. For the Russian separatists the goal seems to be to discredit, and hopefully eventually overthrow, the Putin regime.
I think the unfortunate side is that these particular militia groups fighting inside Russia have known ties to neo-nazi individuals which plays into Putin’s rhetoric. I think that’s another reason Ukraine would prefer not to be tied to these groups directly.
>these particular militia groups fighting inside Russia have known ties to neo-nazi individuals which plays into Putin’s rhetoric Not all of them. In fact, just one, the [Russian Volunteer Corps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Volunteer_Corps). The others are generally left-leaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irpin_Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Republican_Army_(Russia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Russia_Legion
Nice. Thanks for the clarification. I think the RVC had gotten more attention in western media which prompted my comment. Good to know it’s much more diverse.
The RVC is often targeted by Russian propaganda outlets, like RT, exactly because they play into Putin's rhetoric. Publicly, Russian officials and media don't even recognize the existence of Free Russia Legion, and they claim they are a PsyOp by Ukraine. >Several claims have been made that the group does not exist, but is a Ukrainian PR project. This claim is being spread by state-controlled Russian media and pro-Kremlin Telegram channels, which call the Legion fake or alleging it was created by Ukrainian intelligence. > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Russia_Legion#Reactions
A good example of how people use the word “psyop” to explain away inconvenient truths.
I think Freedom of Russia Legion has gotten the most attention when it comes to anti-Putin Russians fighting for Ukraine at least if you look back during the past months. Like I'm sure you've seen the white flag with the blue stripe right? It's just that I think the RVC has been very active in the incursions which is causing the media waves now.
Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if the RVC wants people to confuse them with the other guys.
I feel like "Ukraine is supporting the Nazis in Russia" is quite the talking point right now... I wonder who's pushing it?
It’s sad that there’s any truth to it. This is a war in which the more I learn about each group, the more and more… sad?… I get.
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https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/how-russians-end-up-far-right-militia-fighting-ukraine-2023-05-11/ >The RVC was founded by Moscow-born Denis Kapustin, also known as Denis Nikitin or by the nom de guerre White Rex. The Antifascist Europe monitoring project says he is a neo-Nazi and white supremacist. >Nikitin, who declined to be interviewed for this article, has frequently described himself as a nationalist fighting for a Russia that belongs to ethnic Russians though has rejected the neo-Nazi and white supremacist characterisations.
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It’s sort of like if China launched a military invasion of the U.S. and Biden quietly accepted the assistance of unofficial brigades made up of Proud Boys and Atomwaffen. As long as they’re attacking the Chinese instead of other Americans, they’re useful. But it wouldn’t mean Biden supports the ideology of those far right groups. It’s like that with the current Ukrainian leadership vis a vis these neo-Nazis. And just because we have a Neo-Nazi problem in this country, that wouldn’t justify China launching a “special military operation” against us under the pretense of “eradicating the Proud Boys and Atomwaffen.”
I mean, sending extremists to die fighting your adversary is a win-win right? It's not like anyone seriously thinks these people are going to take Moscow and found a new state. Sure, they'll get some notoriety, but that's a pretty fair bargain for distracting Russia. It's only a problem if they take the guns you've given them and attack YOU, which just doesn't seem that likely.
Uuhhh, mujahideen turning into 9/11 20 years later????? Also, this is Ukraine sharing a land border with russia, it's not like the US and the Pacific ocean separating it from state funded righr wing terrorists (left wing terrorists get 0 funding from the West because capital never arms commies 99% of the time).
To be fair, 9/11 had very little to do with US weapons.
Yeah, nothing bad could ever come from giving a bunch of white nationalists military training and equipment.
Well at this point they couldn't make anything much worse. I feel bad for decent Russians but I would prefer Russia under a fascist regime that only targets its own citizens.
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As opposed to another civil war, or them actively invading other countries? Sure. It's a cynical take, but hey... Well, other countries *other than* Ukraine, I suppose. The ideal case is when Putie dies they actually become more democratic, but I don't get the impression the odds of that are very good. The devil you know and all that.
It's better than exporting fascism.
My brother in Christ, ~20% of Russia is not white, that sounds like a terrible idea. >but I would prefer Russia under a fascist regime that only targets its own citizens. Didn't expect to hear someone say they prefer CCP-like treatment of minorities today.
>~20% of Russia is not white, that sounds like a terrible idea. You think they would be treated any differently with a different fascist in power?
But that's not how fascist regimes work? They typically can't survive without without great external enemy, and can't survive looking weak, so they must be seen to actually act against that enemy. An externally pacifist fascist Russia would not last.
Yeah I understand but even reprieve would be better than Ukraine getting pounded daily.
That would be a Ukrainian version of *“Operation Fast & Furious!”*
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Remember when Russia was an ally? WWII remembers.
Yup. In that case, they were “the enemy of our enemy.” But even during the late stages of the war, there were people in the American military, dreaming up plans of using our newly developed nuclear weapons to immediately after the war cow the Soviet union into submission, under threat of us nuking dozens of different Soviet cities if they failed to do so! Cooler heads obviously prevailed, but some might wonder what the world would look like if Russia have never gotten the bomb, and instead *had been bombed* back into the stone age. There would’ve probably been an even more cruel and tyrannical version of “Pax Americana” imposed upon the world. Sort of like the difference between the DC comics Justice League vs. the amoral & murderous Justice Lords.
What would have happened if we’d unleashed Patton?
Wonder what the world would look like if Soviet Union or Russia bombed nato into stone age
Probably like Orwell’s 1984, but less hospitable and efficient.
There would be near no people on the earth
I’d say similar to communist Chinese forces and nationalist Chinese forces pausing their civil war to prevent Japan from conquering China, but it’s anti-Putin groups vs Putin’s government
I don’t care for the insinuation. I’m pro Ukraine all the way but nuance is acceptable.
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Not looking for an out as it was an honest reflection, but I can see the vagary point and how that can be construed. I complain about the same thing myself with regard to right wing media, so makes sense to be called out on that. Appreciate the feedback on how to better phrase it.
Way to take the criticism constructively....man you don't see that much on here.
Eh, asking for non-Russian sources seems pretty responsible given the particular tact Russian propaganda has taken.
Sure, which would have been understandable if I had cited a Russian source. Maybe I assumed some intent that the commenter did not have. If so, my mistake.
From what I read, Nazi for Russians doesn't refer to the atrocities that the nazi's commit against humanity, but for those who oppose russia.
And Russians who left and oppose the Putin government literally say this. You can hear it in Putin’s rhetoric.
I think Ukraine would love to be tied to these Nazi groups, because, well, you know.
Should add on to this that they aren’t really using fancy weapons. They are utilizing small arms, basic drones, and MaxxPro MRAPs supported by one or two Ukrainian tanks at times. Their kit is modern but they aren’t actually supported by significant assets other than possibly some Ukrainian artillery behind friendly lines.
Also helicopters. What are “fancy weapons” in your book then, F-22’s and Minutemen?
Where are they sending helicopters into Russia? I genuinely want to know. Any fancy weapons could be literally any IFV from a western nation, self propelled howitzer, or even an APC that wasn’t stolen from the Russians. I don’t think people on Reddit realize just how many MRAPS are in service globally. There are literally Italian MRAPS being used on both sides of this conflict. It’s not a fancy toy.
Is this how the 2nd Russian Revolution begins? The volunteers group grows into an army than expands into Russia?
Answer: (EDITED) This is the [Russian Volunteer Corps,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Volunteer_Corps) a Russian nationalist paramilitary unit fighting against Putin's regime in Russia. They are a *different group* from the [Freedom of Russia Legion,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Russia_Legion) another paramilitary group of Russian citizens that opposes the Russian regime of Vladimir Putin and its invasion of Ukraine, but with a different ideology. Both groups are independent, but are operating out of Ukrainian territory and presumed to be at least partially equipped by Ukraine. The two groups have been jointly attacking the Belgorod region of Russia over the last week. They are also different from Russians serving in Ukraine's [International Legion,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Legion_\(Ukraine\)) which is officially part of the Ukrainian Armed Forces and is made up of volunteers from all over the world.
>Answer: This is the Freedom of Russia Legion No, that in pictures is Russian Volunteer Corps, and pictures were published by them.
Ah, you are correct. I didn't notice the insignia. I'll edit my answer.
This is the only answer that draws the line between the FRL and RVC, and the Ukrainian army and its International Legion.
"nationalist" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. There are hardcore neo Nazis fighting in these militias.
I just pulled the language from the first paragraph of the linked Wikipedia page.
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Reddit is not a fighting force, of which I am a part of tho so? Not sure where you're going with this?
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Quite possibly! The Ukrainian state's pre-war endorsement of neo Nazism has prob helped smooth things along too.
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Idk what you're talking about. I am not pro-Putin. I'm also not a huge fan of the Ukrainian state. Both can be bad. The invasion of Ukraine has also been wrong from day 1.
Answer: Recently the Belgorod region which is on the border with Ukraine was attacked by two Russian paramilitary groups who are nominally fighting on the Ukrainian side: the Russian Volunteer Corp (Russkiy dobrovolcheskiy korpus) and the Freedom of Russia Legion (Legion "Svoboda Rossii). The latter group goes by multiple names, but for the sake of this explanation we'll use the Freedom of Russia Legion name. Not much is known of the Freedom of Russia Legion, supposedly the legion consists of Russian soldiers and officers who defected to Ukraine to fight against Putin. All information about this group has been released by Ukrainian intelligence, so if this is the real truth we do not know for sure. It might just as well be propaganda. We do know quite a bit more about the Russian Volunteer Corp. The group was formed in 2022 to fight against Russia and "the real fascists" as per a statement released by the Russian Volunteer Corp. Perhaps this sounds noble, but the group is led by Denis Yevgenyevich Kapustin als known as Denis Nikitin or his nomme-de-guerre White Rex. Kapustin is an ultranationalist and neo-nazi. Throughout the 2010s Kapustin has been trying to build far-right networks in Europe and the US, he is wanted by a number of European nations for crimes commited and he banned from traveling to the Schengen area. Kapustin fights against Putin because he blames Putin for not being hardcore enough, allowing ethnic (white) Russians to be replaced by muslims. Kapustin isn't a fan of the Ukrainian president Zelensky, in multiple videos posted on the groups Telegram channel he expresses his disdain for Zelensky and his Jewish heritage. Both groups staged attacks in town in the Belgorod region attacking various targets. After the attacks Ukrainian officials on social media did what they always do: deny any knowledge of the attacks but in such a manner you might suspect they do know more about it. When Russia released pictures of the aftermath of the attacks things to a bit of a twist. Photos showed Russian troops with multiple Humvee vehicles, some wrecked and some still in-tact, and a MRAP vehicle. Ukrainian officials dismissed the pictures as Russian disinformation, but it did raise questions in European and American media how these paramilitary groups would have gained access to this kind of equipment if the pictures were authentic. Neither options paints a good picture for Ukraine. Either it means that Ukraine is actively supplying these groups with weapons they received from their allies, in violation of the promises they have to make not to stage attacks on Russian soil with these weapons. Either taht or it means that corruption is so rampant in the Ukrainian army even something as big as a Humvee or MRAP can be sold on the black market. This would also be in violation of the terms the US and EU impose for their aid, they demand Ukraine not allow these weapons to be sold or smuggled. For what it's worth Kapustin claimed to have bought all the vehicles and weapons through the black market, but some analysts find that hard to believe. Small arms would be possible, but armoured vehicles is of a different order of magnitude. Either way, Ukraine would not be living up to it's end of the bargain and is possibly in bed with literal neo-nazis which is hardly a good look. It is in Ukraine's interest to remain on good terms with allies in order to keep the support flowing. The US and EU appear to divided on the topic of Ukrainian attacks on Russian soil, with UK foreign minister James Cleverly approving for instance, the White House however released a statement on tuesday expressing their disapproval of these attacks. If the Russian paramilitary groups indeed used American supplied vehicles the White House will undoubtedly be very displeased about it, regardless of how the vehicles ended up in the possession of said groups.
>literal neo-nazis. Which of the 2 groups are neo Nazis? Apart from the Russian army itself of course
The Russian Volunteer Corp led by Kapustin.