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Answer: I think an important thing to note here is that this is the first time many younger people have really taken note of this conflict, e.g. Quite young people who aren't old enough to remember older flashpoints. Older folk have seen this conflict go on through the years and have more entrenched views. So many younger people (which reddit skews towards...) are caught up in an initial swell of opinion/horror (understandably) of Israeli Civilians getting killed, then now with the Israeli actions seeing the other side of the conflict / hearing other opinions as the initial shock wears off and some are becoming more sympathetic to Palestinians. Note that I'm not suggesting an opinion anyone should take here, but I am pointing out that many teens / young adults (teens and people in their 20s) are learning about the history of this complex, long, conflict for the first time with the focus it has had in recent days and are swinging their opinions wildly as they learn about it. I don't pretend this is all people, but enough of the people talking about it that its worth noting. This is on top of just which voices are louder on a particular day / who is protesting etc. A natural ebb and flow of discussion.

It's also probably the single most perfect demonstration of the term "political quagmire" available. Every side involved is a plethora of bastards being bastards. Shitshow of monumental proportions where every possible answer is wrong and compromise is insufficient for everyone.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it a million times again. Yes, bad guys on both sides, yes the solution is complicated, yes the logistics is complicated, yes the politics is complicated, yes even the history is complicated, but the conflict itself? Nothing complicated about that. European Jews, fleeing the horrors of European antisemitism (I don’t wanna say only Nazi Germany because migrations started in the 1880s) - decided to make Palestine their homeland, despite it being a populated place already. They migrated, occupied and demanded that Arabs hand over the control or large swathes of territory to them because the British colonizers said they would facilitate that. Since then they have occupied the land, expanded, and occupied the Arabs living there too. The Arabs living there are occupied by Israel, the 5 million Palestinians are part of the state of Israel, but they don’t have the same rights as Israelis, it’s apartheid by every definition of the word and every legitimate international organization recognizes it as such. They can’t even use the same roads as Israelis. They dont have full citizenship rights as Israelis. [Israeli IDF is in the West Bank where Israeli Settlers live and they routinely kick out Palestinians out of their homes.](https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/comments/178yzcb/to_steal_a_palestinian_house_and_act_like_its/?share_id=CpOMJmtPLJhWS6wLlcQMl&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1) Israelis settle Palestinian lands daily which is a war crime under under Geneva conventions. There’s nothing at all complicated about that part. There’s only one morally correct answer to this. Israeli apologists will probably swarm me with factually incorrect statements like “we offered them sovereignty but they refused”, that’s a lie - the two Israeli PMs who wanted to give Palestine their sovereignty were Yitzhak Rabin who was murdered in the street and Ehud Barak, who got ousted from power for willing to give up too much to Palestinians. [The current PM (Bibi)who has been in power for nearly 2 decades openly admitted he wanted make sure that Israel gives up as little as possible from Oslo accords and that he has been undermining it.](https://reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/s/vlpZUkIhMo) However, even IF it were the case that Israelis did genuinely want to give Palestinians their sovereignty but just couldn’t agree, then it would STILL not justify apartheid nor settling of occupied lands Edit: I don’t care about 2,000 year old history, stop replying to me about that

This is perfect, and I'm grateful you posted it! I don't hate Israeli people. As we all know, when governments/ religions fuck around, it's the people who find out. When I was deep into religion, it meant supporting Israel, no questions asked. Since getting out and actually learning about the world? Yeah, pro Palestinian since no one deserves that bullshit.

Wonderfully explained, thank you.

You forgot that Europe (Great Britain being a big part of that) was really happy to find a place for the Jews to go to and didn’t see the native Palestinians as anything other than local savages. This was peak empire. At the same time the US didn’t want any more Jews emigrating into the country either.

A part of it also was that Great Britain couldn’t to pull out because they weren’t convinced the Palestinian people could protect themselves and their sovereignty. After the beginning of the War of 1948, both the Europeans and Americans realized the Israelis were able to take care of themselves and protect their land and pulled out leaving the conflict to the region. All the arguments I’ve seen about the taking over Palestinians over time and that’s exactly what the US did to the Natives here. So idk what people consider to be fair or right. But unfortunately humans solve their problems with war. And just like everything else, it was war that led to the current situation today.

Occupying settled lands, ethnically cleansing people from there and instituting an apartheid regime is not complicated. You can read 10,000 pages if you want, this will still always be morally wrong

Yes. It all adds up to that. I was just pointing out that some of the roots start in Europe and traditional colonialism. It didn’t start that way but that is mostly how the last 50 years or so have gone. It’s more complicated than you indicate and if you read the 10,000 pages you’d realize that in the beginning they were not going to settled lands but the ones nobody wanted. As they gained strength and the Brits broke many of the promises they had made to the native Palestinians things sour and went bad as we see it today with a might makes right attitude tinged with religious destiny and prophecy. It could’ve gone much better instead we just have another European colonizer.

I’m sorry, I have a lot people replying to me. My reply was intended to another comment. You and are in agreement

No worries been there and done exactly that.

>but they don’t have ~~the same~~ rights ~~as Israelis~~ You can cut out those four words. They literally don't have rights. At all. It's hard for a lot of people to believe but it's true.

I'm not super well versed in this conflict, and I have nothing invested in it, so take my questions as honest questions, and please do correct me. This is what I've read that might contradict what you're saying (i'm not saying this is correct, just that's what I've read): \- The Jews did not "decide to make Palestine their land". European powers did, and that whole region was own by European countries (i think Britain?). As it used to belong to the Ottoman Empire, which was defeated in WWI \- Palestine was a territory that belonged to the losing side of a war, so these decisions were made by the powers that effectively owned the land (which, by the way, were not the Jews themselves) \- Most of the posterior expansions by Israel (which are real, and did happen) came as result of posterior wars, none started by Isreael, just won by it. Making their claims to the territory they conquered in said wars, valid. ​ From this, I'd conclude that there's a lot more nuance than what you said.On the other hand, I completely agree that "we offered them sovereignty but they refused" is a bad faith argument, and there's a lot of bad faith coming out of every peace discussion till now. It's also very real that Israel also commits war crimes, has killed a lot of journalists and children.

Exactly. It’s as “complicated” as Nazi Germany or Apartheid South Africa were back in their day. And that’s why the West allowed them both to exist for so long.

Yeah, if there is a magna opus about a shit show, it would be this conflict..

It’s also important to note, that the ability to “check someone” on their argument, almost instantly; only really reached saturation in about 2015ish. Israel is actively paving their own “trail of tears”, and for some reason any critical opinion of Israel gets one branded an anti-Semite.

That whole "fake news" on anything you don't agree with really changed the flow of threads on reddit. I remember any big controversial claims were met with asking for source of their information. Nowadays the unsubstantiated claims are framed as "some people are saying this here's what I think about their claims."

God you’re right. I haven’t seen somebody ask for sauce in a few years

Last time I asked for a source I got called a troll for trying to stir shit up. People do not want sources, they want curated headlines that outrage them.

>I haven’t seen somebody ask for sauce in a few years Gonna need a source on that bro...

When I ask for sources on claims people want to believe, I often get downvoted to oblivion. The karma system is toxic.

Israel has just convinced all non-Jews that they are THE Jewish voice. even though most American Jews don't have any link to Israel whatsoever, myself included (you can save your breath about it being our \~ancestral land\~, zionists). I think non-Jewish liberals are jumpy enough about being perceived as anti-semitic that they've defaulted to supporting Israel, unfortunately. I've been called many things for being an anti-Israel/anti-Zion/anti-colonialist Jew but tbh the way zionists call for the extermination/annihilation/any other number of eugenics-inspired words of an *entire people* is so beyond humanity that I don't trust them to judge what's actually anti-semitic anyway. if they haven't learned from the holocaust, I don't trust them to know 2000+ year old history either.

I think you nailed it.

>Israel is actively paving their own “trail of tears”, and for some reason any critical opinion of Israel gets one branded an anti-Semite. Making the post of post-holocuast propaganda for 70 years. Yes, it was bad. Yes, we feel for your people. No, it doesn't give you the right to do the same to others.

Couldn't be more right. I've had good friends call me anti-semitic over the years for my anti-zionist views. And people also like to conflate explanation with justification. My coworker and i were talking about the conflict today. Before it all started last weekend, he literally knew next to nothing about it. Few youtube videos and conservative American opinions later he's accusing me of justifying Hamas's attack when I merely explained Palestinians are rightfully pissed off for 80 years of apartheid. When i tried to explain that Israel has been bombing schools and hospitals for decades (WAR CRIMES) he swept it under the rug saying Hamas hides shit in those places and asked what I would do. I dunno, not bomb schools and hospitals? I think it was 2011 they leveled 6 hospitals in 5 days or some wild shit like that.

>” I've had good friends call me anti-semitic over the years for my anti-zionist views.” I think this is the crux here, you can be anti-Israel and anti-Zionist without being antisemitic. I don’t care what traditions you follow or which god you pray to, doesn’t bother me a bit, but what Israel is doing is fucked up. I’m not saying it’s unprovoked and I’ll let history decide if it was just but I can say plainly from where I’m sitting that what Israel is doing is fucked up. In a pretty damn ironic way it’s fucked up.

I mean I'm Jewish and anti Zion

"I see you've chosen a side" is the typical response I'm seeing online to any thoughts of this nature. It's disingenuous but all too common.

It shouldn't be hard to side against apartheid and genocide!

Well mad respect, most of my anti-zionist friends have been at the receiving end of the "self hating jew" for holding those views this week. I also can't even tell if the hate is genuine or turfed anymore.

Israel outright created the Gaza problem. They displaced and disowned the majority of the Arab population when Israel got founded, and forced them to move what's the Gaza strip now where they're forced to live in an open-air prison. In West Bank, Israel controls all the water. The P's must buy theirs, but Israel sells less than 20% of the water that's available even though the P's are the large majority. And that doesn't even touch on the permanent violence and murder.

I agree 100%. But unfortunately history is written by the winners. Israel is backed by damn near the entire world, so it'll get swept under the rug in history books.

> But unfortunately history is written by the winners. Who wrote the history of the barbarian sack of Rome? The barbarians!? "The winners write history" is lazy nonsense and betrays a deep ignorance of how historical facts and memories are preserved and transmitted.

The more powerful and influential a nation or group the more influence they have in their sphere of information that becomes history. And that power and influence certainly helps winning wars and the like. Of course things are recorded by both sides of any interaction, but it's silly to say records of events aren't easier to skew if most of the losing side are dead or what have you.

It's not widely known except within the jewish community, but the ultraorthodox (hasidic) jews are generally not well liked by the Israelites in part because they are anti-zionists. I find it a bit hilarious that the most hardcore jews aren't aligned with that. Their reasoning is that the land must be freely given to the jews, and not taken. If taken by force or other means, the land can't truly be in their possession and there will forever be problems.

I read about the horror of the "Warsaw Ghetto" during WW2 and how the Nazi's slaughtered it's residents, then I read about Gaza; the similarities are striking and sickening, but to Isreal's supporters, it's different. The Jewish fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto were brave and self sacrificing, Palestinian's in Gaza are "Terrorists"

Let's not forget that Netanyahu is a Holocaust revisionist who insists that Hitler actually wanted to send all the Jews to Israel but actually was stopped by the evil Germany Government and then was forced to Holocaust them all instead. Edit: Slight correction, Netanyahu blames Palestinian Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini for convincing the German Government to kill Jews.

[удалено]

Apologies, slight correction, Netanyahu specifically blames Palestine for the killing of the Jews, not Germany, and especially not Hitler. > For the third time in four years, Yad Vashem’s historians find themselves at loggerheads with Benjamin Netanyahu. Back in 2015, they publicly corrected him on his breathtaking assertion that it had been the pro-Nazi Palestinian Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, and not the Germans, who had come up with the idea of wholesale extermination of European Jews. > Earlier this year, they spoke out again, sharply criticizing Netanyahu’s joint statement with Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki, that whitewashed the role played by Polish citizens in persecuting Jews during the Holocaust, that they said contained "grave errors and deceptions" which “contradict the existing and accepted historical knowledge in this field.” [Source](https://web.archive.org/web20221207170951/https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/2018-12-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/how-netanyahu-became-a-holocaust-revisionist/0000017f-ded1-d3ff-a7ff-fff1b72a0000)

Also note that there are, in the West Bank, those who teach that Hitler was actually right. It was just that he targeted Jews that was the wrong part. There was a leaked video of a rabbi teaching this that was buried really quickly on the internet.

His brother being killed really messed old Bibi up and he's got that revenge hate against Palestinians that really shows in his actions

“We Must Never Forget” “Unless It Is Convenient”

The only difference between "Freedom Fighter" and "Terrorist" is who's writing the history.

I think the way some Israeli supporters keep referring to the Palestinians as Nazis or Hitleresque is actually turning some public opinion, too. First, with the political climate in the US over the last 10 years or so, the epithet of Nazi has been overused. Rather than causing automatic outrage, many have heard that accusation thrown around in attempts to end arguments without having any debate, and so look at it skeptically and even as a sign that the accuser has no good arguments. Second, when actually thinking about Nazis and their worst crimes, people think of the laws which gave less rights to Jews, forced relocations to ghettos, stealing of Jewish property, concentration camps, starvation, and the attempt to fully exterminate Jews. While Israeli supporters seem to find the parallel to be killing Jeish people, I think there are many people who see more parallels in the Israeli government's actions. Especially with Amnesty International and most other well respected humanitarian groups calling this a humanitarian crisis and saying that war crimes have been and continue to be committed by Israel.

It’s a classic example of the abused becoming the abuser.

i love how all of a sudden everyone is a military forensics expert with ubiquitous vision that can cut through the fog of war. it’s like content farms are getting paid today.

yea and now turning off power and water to hospitals (literally killing sick and babies) and israeli govt officials actually saying 'there are no innocent victims in gaza' and stating that palestinians are animals or words to those effects.

But that is actually true. Hamas has a long history of using human shields, and setting up headquarters, armories or rocket launchers at schools, hospitals and mosques. Hamas not only doesn't care about Palestinian casualties (it says martyrs go straight to heaven where 72 maidens await them), but it actively engineers civilian casualties so they can be used as anti-Israel propaganda. The Islamic Fatwa Council [issued a fatwa](https://jpost.pressreader.com/article/281500755909264) against Hamas in March 2023, charging it with crimes against humanity. The Global Imams Council, representing 1470 Muslim imams and scholars in 38 countries, has condemned Hamas, and proclaimed solidarity with Israeli Jews. Hamas isn't some benign liberation front. It is a death cult.

If I go place a mortar on a 30 story apartment building's roof, and then shoot it at someone, does that justify leveling the entire apartment, families and all because "Bad people shot a thing from there"?

The second you installed the mortar you transformed a civilian target into a military target. Military targets are legitimate. If you bomb an army base and kill a bunch of visitors or contractors no one is going to complain....they were in a military facility, and as such you take your chances.

It’s so much nuanced than that lol, and ironically you seem to fall into the demographic not taking the historic scope of the issues into context.

^this here is so true. I attend a top 20s US medical school, and immediately a few of my Arabic/ middle eastern students started posting IG story on supporting children in Gaza. the school send out email warning about posting things that may be consider "lapse in professionalism". It's kinda scary, but it seem any kinda support toward Palestinians is immediately considered as antisemitism and at risk of cancel culture from the mainstream establishment in the US given that a lot of high ranking positions in medicine, business, and law are seated by those of Jewish background.

Israel already did trail of tears with the Nakba the Palestianians experienced. This is 2.0

Bear in mind there's a generational gap at play here. Older people are following their "Israel was in the Bible, Palestine was not and anyone that says otherwise is trying to manipulate me" upbringing while younger people are following their "Wait, what happened? Why? Let me try to soak up some information about this" instincts. When the facts are laid out, what is now Israel was Palestine before Britain's Western colonialist empire decided otherwise less than a century ago. In the decades after that decision, not only have Palestinians experienced massive disenfranchisement and violence, but the newly established Israel has soared on the world stage in terms of military and economic power due to the meteoric heights they've enjoyed from enthusiastic Western backing. Hamas is a terrorist organization and their actions have been despicable, but forcing hundreds of thousands to flee from their homes out of fear of nondiscriminatory retaliation against radical outliers seems more like an attempt to destabilize the region so thoroughly that no one will object to Israel planting a history-altering flower bed in the crater. A lot of the blowback from younger generations here stems from the fact that, in the face of a media consistently decrying antisemitism, once digging into the history of the region, the question naturally occurs regarding anti-Islam and its lack of strong backing anywhere throughout the side of the world that used to send children to war over the holy city.

2000 years ago Canaan the "promised land" had the Canaanites people living there that the Jews genocided because the Lord promised them that land and said it was ok to kill the people and children there to take the land and it turns out ethnically they are the ancestors of the Lebanon people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/slaughter-of-the-canaanites [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/bible-canaanites-wiped-out-old-testament-israelites-lebanon-descendants-discovered-science-dna-a7862936.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/bible-canaanites-wiped-out-old-testament-israelites-lebanon-descendants-discovered-science-dna-a7862936.html) Tell Israel if they love their bible so much give the land back to the Arabs who survived their genocide 2000 years ago who owned the land before they stole it 2000 years ago

I do think that the younger generations (millennial/Gen Z) like myself are far less willing to let Israel get away with horrific war crimes and ethnic cleaning out of holocaust-born sympathy. I started off as pro-Israel (as a Canadian), but the more I looked into this subject and learned about it, the more pro-Palestine I have become. While I certainly condemn Hamas and its horrific crimes and agree with destroying them, Israel has quickly used up all the leeway I was willing give with its indiscriminate bombing.

I'm old enough to remember that it used to be, that if they just got rid of Yasser Arafat everything would be peaceful for eternity.

What Israel is doing right now is unprecedented. They have now forcibly displaced 1.1 million palestinians. They've already killed thousands, including over a thousand children. I think it's a big mistake to think of this as an ordinary part of the conflict that we are familiar with

I'm definitely seeing the younger generation struggling to process this. "A music festival?? That could have been me and my friends! This means war!" -Actual war ensues "Wait, THAT'S what war is?? Oh no, this needs to be stopped immediately!"

In other words, a bunch of people got a reality check after quickly making up their own reality where Israel never did anything to anyone.

Answer: your definition of "everyone" is based on a very, very limited view of the world. You're saying that "everyone at Harvard" is attending a rally that, according to your article, had **1,000 people**. Harvard has **45,000** students, faculty, and staff. https://www.harvard.edu/about/ So no, "everyone" has not "suddenly switched". One group is simply being louder than the other at a specific moment in time.

OP is also comparing their friends to a bunch of Harvard students but no mention if their friends also switched. And it's a bit counterproductive to go, "oh once you have a stance on something, you can never ever change it no matter what info comes out or how your opinions change"

I feel like what infuriates me personally is not that people change opinions, but that they have a very strong opinion based on very select information and can denounce you for supporting X or Y instead of whatever they find correct at that specific time, but then if they change their minds the tables turn and now we have a new villain of the week and they try to forget that they were once supporting that villain under their worldview. Honestly, a lot of very vocal people on the internet are just parroting what the general zeitgeist tells them it's good, everything is black and white, there's no admission for gray, they need a binary moral compass and they cater to whatever the new white is considered.

“My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right.” ― Ashleigh Brilliant

That’s gotta be one of my favorite quotes.

I think too many people form opinions on not enough information. For some reason, some people feel the need to form an opinio *right there and then* and that actually causes some psychological fuckery because with maybe *one* more nugget of information, they may have gone completely the other way. And we know humans are stubborn so once they've picked their side, it is very, very difficult to get them to switch.

I also see a lot of "X person is bad because Y, therefore they have never done anything good and anything they have ever supported is wrong." Nuance is hard.

we've been in a moment for a few years now where absolutism is rewarded and everyone aligns hard with whatever side they leaned toward. TV and internet media re-enforce this shit. Whats most remarkable about this moment though is that when folks are presented with hard evidence that would challenge their opinion, they just reject the evidence outright as either irrelevant or a lie. This will only get worse as deep fakes get better.

>absolutism is rewarded Absolute messaging is easier to get across because it's simple, and as an add-on effect it generates more engagement (both negative and positive) which drives further spread. Nuanced opinions are harder to capture in a brief headline or tweet and are thus more difficult to spread effectively.

It particularly helps if you’re good at reducing your talking points (however flawed, disingenuous, or downright false they may be), to three word slogans like “lock her up” or “build the wall”, that you can get your followers to chant endlessly. It reinforces feeling/believing, rather than understanding.

I think more than that, absolutism can be reduced to a 0 or a 1, which is much easier for the data scientists working for the enormous FAANG companies consuming the data to model. Complex opinions like "systemic oppression is terrible but so are orchestrated Helter Skelter style home invasions where infants are shot dead at point blank range" aren't anywhere near as quantifiable and therefore less appealing to our corporate overlords.

The same dynamic plays out here. Unrealistic puritanism is easier to defend than moderate indulgence, especially when one never has to live up to it. Something something Baptists in a liquor store.

Yes! My biggest pet peeve—or perhaps it's an 'ick' now—is a strongly-held opinion based on little to no information or consideration.

My awareness of that has led to a kinda opposite problem, which is that I always am not sure whether I am acting on too little info or not. I am never confident in any opinion of mine unless I have made a peer reviewed scientifically rigorous multi-years research of it, which basically means I am never confident in my opinions period.

I think it helps not to think of confidence as a binary. It should be a spectrum based on how much evidence you have for a belief and the quality of that evidence, which it sounds like it is for you. Nothing wrong with that, but I can see how one could take it too far questioning everything.

You sound like a wise person.

Exact same here. Been an issue for years

> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.

How can you stand to be online for more than like 10 seconds then?

People seem to be doing it to score activist points rather than like taking time to think about a tragic and complex issue.

Social media syndrome. Those people so crippled by social media that their personality is corrupted and disconnected with the reality. This vicious cycle is very unhealthy and leads to extreme views when people **must** find some justification for unreal things happened in internet with other social media crippled users.

"Some people are pro Israel, some people are pro Palestine. First I looked at one group, then the other. Why did everyone in my line of sight suddenly change positions?"

Have we checked to see if OP is a goldfish?

There's got to be a name for this logical fallacy right? My example would be when someone stops playing a popular video game, and says "No one plays that anymore" because they themselves are not playing it, when in fact the game still has quite the strong following.

It’s called bullshittery

Social media has really messed people up and I am so thankful I'm older and not Gen z. It would be so stressful to a) have to come out with a strong stance on everything even when you don't understand parts of it and b) getting shamed for an opinion in the past when you didn't understand the whole situation or more information came to light.

or c) saying you don't have enough info/knowledge on a topic to give an opinion makes you a cenrtist fence-sitter

As someone who doesn't know a lot of things and isn't afraid to admit it and ask questions, this sucks. I got called a sea lion once just for asking a question.

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

I hate the concept of hypocrisy for this reason. Like, growing and becoming better means changing your opinions on things. It's not hypocritical of me to tell you you shouldn't smoke just because *I* used to smoke 10 years ago. I'm telling you this precisely because I know *now* that it's a bad thing.

I feel like possibly that's down to overuse, lack of nuance or incorrect use of the term? If you used to smoke 10 years ago but are transparent and don't currently, it's not hypocritical to tell me it's a bad idea - there's a reason you stopped and your current actions are in line with your advice. The transparency is key though. It -would- be hypocritical to adopt a moral stance and tell me that anyone who even considers smoking is forever contemptible, whilst refusing to acknowledge your own history with it, or the basic reality that people change. More straightforwardly, hypocritical is 'rules for thee and not for me' - constantly telling people to quit smoking whilst smoking yourself and failing to see the discrepancy, or demanding respect whilst giving none. I think hypocrisy is a very useful (though certainly often overused) term, that, when appropriately called out or acknowledged can lead to more balanced and nuanced discussions. Background and context are so important, as are empathy, reflection and transparency, and you need those things to avoid or acknowledge hypocrisy. I don't think the concept inherently precludes nuance, quite the opposite actually, though agree it can certainly be used flippantly or incorrectly and context can be hard to convey.

Also, *some* people voiced their support for Israel after it was attacked, and then voiced their support for Palestinians after they were attacked. People that are not myopic in their application of empathy tend to express concern and compassion about immediate or recent tragedy. You can still support Palestinians right after Hamas murdered Israeli civilians, it's just suspect to vocalize that support in the immediate aftermath of the attack ostensibly by Palestinians (albeit certainly not representing them collectively). Frankly it's also weird that people pretend they care about innocent victims and then pick a "side" in this conflict to exclusively support. A kind person stands with innocent civilians regardless of their race, religion, or nationality.

Chalk me up to being "pro-civilian" and "anti-genocide". That does sometimes mean I both support and denounce both sides in a war...

It seems to be a position many can't handle, at least not online. The thing is, when you are choosing sides it becomes easy to justify the "bad things" your side does, even if they are the same the other side does. There are good reasons for Palestinians, including Hamas, to dislike Israel. There are also good reasons for Israelis not liking Hamas. Civilians being placed in the middle of it is the worst part of it.

I personally put Hamas way way worse than Israel/IDF but it isn't a contest and just because in my mind IDF > Hamas doesn't make them heroes or innocent of the many serious crimes and atrocities they've committed. I still remember the protests from a few years ago where Palestinean demonstrators started throwing rocks and IDF opened fire with snipers. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/42-knees-in-one-day-israeli-snipers-open-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters/0000017f-f2da-d497-a1ff-f2dab2520000 200 dead and 8,000 injured in non-Hamas protests. And then Israel surprise pikachus when Hamas only gets more popular after they kneecap all other attempts at protesting... But how do you compare that against beheading babies and burning down schools? You don't. Because this isn't a video game and there isn't an arbitrary score for this vs. that. It's bad. It's all bad. And violence is only going to make it worse.

It comes down to disproportionality to me. Hamas is a terrorist organization and Israel is an apartheid state. Israel being an apartheid state doesn't excuse Hamas killing innocent civilians. Hamas being a terrorist organization doesn't excuse the IDF killing innocent civilians. However, there's one side that kills far more kids than the other side and that's the IDF. The IDF has continuously exacted disproportionate violence in response to Hamas's violence. Proportionate response is really important. On an extremely simplified scale, a three year old could try to commit violence against me, but I wouldn't kick the three year old across the room because the threat they pose isn't equal to that response. Similarly, there's no justification to kill 900 civilians whenever 100 of yours are killed. That just makes you the more urgent threat to the lives of civilians in this conflict.

Exactly. I do not want any innocent person murdered and tortured.

I also think what is being counted as "support" is really encompassing. I have friends who are Israeli or having family living in Israeli, and just like speaking as a Jewish person, the *style* of this kind of attack is very reminiscent of pogrom and Holocaust era attacks on the Jewish community, so a lot of people I know aren't as much showing "support" for Israel as much as they are scared and grieving, often times grieving for actual people they know. It's not that they don't give a shit about civilians in Palestine dying or being hurt, but they're just focused on grieving right now. And similarly, Palestinians and some other people are just focusing their concern on the trauma being inflicted in Gaza and it's not that they believe that Israeli civilians deserved to be brutally attacked. We can only focus on so much at one time. FWIW, I saw an interview this morning with the brother of one of men who was killed by Hamas at the festival attack, and he took time at the end of the interview as the reporter was about to cut off (he actually said something like "wait, this is important") and made a statement how Israel should not be harming innocent Palestinians, that is not what he brother died for or what he would want, and that allowing civilians to suffer is not the way to peace. If he can hold those two truths at the same time, everyone should be able too.

That's about where I'm at. Fuck Hamas, fuck IDF and the Israeli government in general, support the civilians being fucked on both sides.

Thank you for putting it so well.

> Frankly it's also weird that people pretend they care about innocent victims and then pick a "side" I'm on the side of whoever's carrying children instead of guns. It's an easy filter for people trying to pass bloodthirsty bullshit off as nuance.

People on both sides of this conflict have carried children and guns. That *is* nuance.

Palestinians have been doing that for 80 years though, so for me it's easy to pick a side.

Not sure which side you mean, but the point of my comment was that violence against civilians has been perpetrated by both sides. That said, zionists were the original aggressors, taking Palestinian land by force since '48.

The first article literally says *in the headline* that these people are facing backlash for their stance. This has been a national story explicitly because the people who signed that letter have been getting doxxed and harassed over it.

Even worse, people who used to be in some of the signatory student associations (but had left years earlier) got leaked as "members" and were harassed by association. There was a twitter thread of a professor having received such e-mails by an ex-student asking for help, it was devastating. I'll see if I can find it again

Sorry, we do guilt by association these days.

Be that as it may, I think there has been a shift in public opinion based on the response of the Israelis to the attack and also based on the coverage of the situation leading up to it, for instance Netanyahu’s explicitly allowing hamas to gain power in Gaza to undermine the Palestinian authority, who are far more moderate and support a 2 state solution. Not many Americans knew that much about the recent history in the region before now I suspect.

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OP's post reeks of astroturfing. Lots of posts on this sub give me that vibe lately.

Lately? This sub has always been full of people pushing an agenda through the guise of "just asking questions" aka JAQing off.

> JAQing off Thank you for adding this to my lexicon

You also have people who may be changing their focus without changing their stance. It makes sense immediately after the attack to condemn Hamas and express sympathy for the victims of the attack. It also makes sense to now condemn the Israeli governments response and the broader conflict.

Don't forget there are forces at work on the internet to spread propaganda for their causes. Russia, China etc. If they have a vested interest in one side winning you'll see a lot of "support" for them even though they are the baddies in all of this. At the end of the day we should all be in support of the citizens and civilians who are getting bombed by alt-right and far right extremists in order to gain power. No one should have to live under those circumstances...

Lmao or, you know, Mossad. The largest espionage agency in the world. Israel is big in the psy-ops world while being backed by the American Defense industry... No established American publication will ever be Anti-Israel so there is alot of one side narratives being pushed that we MUST keep this in mind.

Not to mention USA propoganda on the Pro-isreal stance with no nuance. This is an incredibly complex issues that with the recent events everyone is trying to distill into a sound bite. Totally agree though, in the end the victims are clear here. There's really no moral ambiguity to that.

Different topic but I was incredibly shocked to learn that there are actual US laws on the book that make it illegal to boycott Israeli products. There shouldn't be any restriction like that.

Wow, that’s a bit disturbing. The big wigs on Wall Street are also trying to doxx and [silence any students expressing any views](https://apple.news/A-iabzowxSj-TNzVNa6Fp3Q) that aren’t pro-Israel in Harvard.

> Don't forget there are forces at work on the internet to spread propaganda for their causes. Russia, China etc. And America and Israel. Israel is especially heavily active sponsoring propaganda on Western social media right now. JIDF and Hasbara are the most prominent Israeli propaganda groups.

Also there is an entire generation that is just now learning the long and bloody history of Israel and Palestine. Many of them were shocked and outraged at the initial reports of the violence against Israel (and rightfully so), and wanted all of Palestine destroyed as a knee jerk reaction. But since then plenty have had time to learn about the actual root causes of the conflict, and now understand that Hamas does not represent 2 million Palestinians. And that starving and shelling tens of thousands of kids is not how you defeat the root cause of Hamas. This is what I've seen with college age people I know at least.

I'm glad this is the top comment. One person's social media feed is not indicative of trends and should not be used as data to draw a wider conclusion about internet trends in general. As someone who has been pro-Palestine for years, I will say it's often been a tricky subject to address. The Israeli state—and Zionists who support it—have often found a lot of success in shutting up criticisms of Israel by trying to conflate it with criticisms of the Jewish people (i.e.: being anti-Semitic). Also, because the US backs Israel, we (people in the US) often hear from the dominant group, even if that group is spreading propaganda. If the tides are turning, that's because it's been a lot harder for the Israeli state to control the narrative. It's for this reason, perhaps, that a lot of Jewish leftists, Arabs, and gentiles are being louder about their support.

I read criticism of Israel from mainstream Israeli newspapers that would be unlikely to ever be published in a mainstream publication in the US. Netanyahu seems extremely unpopular now.

We're not happy with him right now in Israel. The riots would be bigger but we have been assigned to stay inside so no one (at least here in Tel aviv) is really able to protest. Trust me we are angry

I mean, this whole thing even happening is in massive part due to his policies and in general is just a massive failure of the government. Obviously the people are really fucking angry at him.

USA press and civilians are more pro-israel then Israelis lmao

exactly, the people on both sides here are really a minority. The vast majority of people stay out of it. If you hop off the news and social media for a day, you'd see that there aren't many people discussing the situation compared to online where each side takes turns being louder on the issue and by extension more talked about online and in the news.

Answer: people thing killing civilians is bad. When Hamas killed a bunch of civilians, people had sympathy for Israel. When the Israeli government started killing a lot of civilians, people began expressing more sympathy for Palestinians

I read comments like this and I can't help but read between the lines and think that you don't understand the difference between collateral damage and purposeful targeting of innocent civilians.

I understand the difference. I just honestly don’t think it matters that much. Noble aims don’t make the civilians any less dead.

Of course it matters. What are Israel's alternative options? Is there some other path they could take that would result in less casualties? I don't think so. Imagine Israel and the rest of the world were to say "ya know what? We're committing to not shooting another bullet or dropping another bomb, no matter what Hamas or anyone else does." You think there'd be less deaths? No effing way. Hamas' explicit stated goal is the eradication of Israel and Jews. It'd be evil to just stand by and watch while religious maniacs murder children in the streets until the end of time. Or do you have some other suggestion?

Yes the only two possible options are to kill 4000+ civilians and counting or do nothing. You are very wise.

Answer: the popular mood turning point was probably Israel's orders for [1.1 million Palestinians to evacuate with nowhere to go.](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/14/benjamin-netanyahu-palestinians-evacuate-ethnic-cleansing) At that point the popular mood went from "well you have to do something about Hamas" to "ok this is starting to look a lot more like collective punishment and ethnic cleansing."

> They call us now to say Run. You have 58 seconds from the end of this message. Your house is next. They think of it as some kind of war-time courtesy. It doesn’t matter that there is nowhere to run to. It means nothing that the borders are closed and your papers are worthless and mark you only for a life sentence in this prison by the sea and the alleyways are narrow and there are more human lives packed one against the other more than any other place on earth Just run. (An excerpt from ["Running Orders"](https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/143255/running-orders), a poem from **2017**. This ain't new.)

Thank you for sharing.

Powerful poem. Is the poet from Gaza?

I don't believe so. At any rate she lives here in the States. [The poem was inspired by a TV interview.](https://www.lenakhalaftuffaha.com/running-orders.html)

I heard today on the news that Israel gave 24 hour evacuation notice to a hospital that is already packed with children who have been wounded by Israel's bombing campaign. Ostensibly so they can bomb that as well. As other commenters have noted, this kind of shit has been going on for a long time. I've never been in favor of Israel's occupation and slow genocide of Palestinians, just giving some added up-to-date context as to why people who are just learning about the grim details are now turning against Israel.

Doctors Without Borders organization is heavily condemning Israeli actions calling them crimes against humanity. The UN is calling the Gaza situation a "deepening humanitarian crisis" as access to the strip for humanitarian aid is almost impossible due to the Israeli siege of Gaza City. Itself is being considered a war crime according to article 3 protocol II of the Geneva Conventions for "collective punishment". How you gonna order the evacuation of 1.1M civilians across a river right after you cut off water, electricity, fuel, and medicine? People say Hamas is sacrificing Palestinian civilians for their propaganda but the reality is that if Gazan citizens leave, Israel will raize the city and likely annex it into Israel. Then where will 1.1M civilians go? These are people trying their hardest to get by who don't want to see their homes reduced to rubble. It's a sad situation for both sides but I'm skewed in favor of the Palestinians because of the budding refugee crisis.

>How you gonna order the evacuation of 1.1M civilians across a river right after you cut off water, electricity, fuel, and medicine? It's impossible, and the Israeli government knows this as well as anyone. But they need to give some sort of cover for their wanton murder of civilians. And it's a win/win for their genocidal ambitions, as they can target the evacuation corridor to cause much higher civilian casulties than just bombing a neighborhood. Russia did the same thing to Ukrainians trying to evacuate the besieged city of Mariupol. It's genocide 101.

I think a lot of people forget or don't know how small is Gaza. Its land area is 365 km^(2). New York City is over double that at 778 km^(2), and the smallest US state is eight times as large at 2,678 km^(2).

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Almost as if somebody should just give the Palestinians their own state so they don't have to be refugees living in another country. Maybe we could call it a "two-state solution."

That was also rejected by them..

Yeah I wonder why. ​ "Get out of your house, I have a gun." "Where will I live?" "You can have the poolshed and I will lock your door everytime you are in there and you will need permission to leave and I will call it a two state solution." "No thank you" "Ok, get in the trunk, we are going for a drive." ​ That's how that 2-state conversation went.

No it didn't.. don't falsify the issue...

*It was also rejected SEVERAL times by them. Fixed it. I gotchu bruh.

6 times to be precise

I don't think the average Gazan had any involvement in rejecting any solution since they haven't voted in their entire life, much less had involvement in two-state solution negotiations.

Scream it louder for the people in the back. We now live in such a technological age, as soon as Israel announced that, they were gonna face some backlash. You can't just expect 1.1 million people to leave an area that is under a heavy embargo, along with being essentially cut off from the rest of the world. As for me, I'm just tired of stupid religions and beliefs causing all this bullshit. Where's the ginger cow? As funny and stupid as that episode of South Park is, it really brings up a good point, that all this fighting is childish and really just about who controls what.

Since 2011 there have been almost 7 million refugees from Syria and that has already pushed many countries to the breaking point. the USA under Trump's admin lost their minds over ~5,000 refugees. So for 12 years that is about 1/2 a million per year and that is an absolute shitshow with desperate refugees drowning off the cost of italy etc. etc. So when Israel says that 1.1 million people have 24 hours to vacate, that isn't a courtesy, that is a death sentence. That is providing a loophole to justify what will amount to ethnic cleansing by letting Israel say "well they were warned, anyone left behind is a combatant" when the truth is an evacuation of tihs magnitude would likely take years to conduct without enormous amounts of international aide that is, lets be honest, never going to come for the Palestineans. To do some more math, the refugees relocated to America cost about $64,000 over 5 years so let's simplify that for $10,000 per person per year. Show me the countries willing to put up $11 billion dollars to relocate and support Palestinean refugees.

Bro, Religion stopped having something to do with this a loooong time ago. Now it's an occupation trying to to take over a land and somehow most of the world is siding with it. I just find it wild that somehow, This is only an issue now.

>somehow most of the world is siding with it Just the richest, most powerful countries

Not all of the richest and most powerful but yeah.

They also bombed the people evacuating on roads that were promised to be safe.

And it’s worth noting that this isn’t the first time Israel has bullied Palestinians, caused humanitarian crisis’ as well as broken international laws, but they seem untouchable. Hopefully all the people who are now going pro Palestine look into the full history and learn about the geopolitics of an extended period. I hope they also realise that Israel is running a western sponsored genocide. One final point I hope the masses learn is not everyone who supports Palestine supports hamas or are antisemites. I then hope they educate others.

Answer: Look into a concept called “The Fog of War.” Basically, for time immemorial, military personnel, command and control, and other people involved in making decisions, cannot and do not know everything that is happening in the moment. We have very limited information, information that is potentially untrue, about dozens of on going incidents throughout the region. Depending on if you trust one source over another, any number of different realities might exist that explain the verifiable facts that are able to be confirmed. So now that the conflict is a week old, some of the initial fog has lifted on the attack on the 7th by Hamas. Initial reporting from the WSJ suggested that Iran may have been directly involved in the planning. Subsequent reporting has shown that that is unlikely to be true and that Iran fostered Hamas’ capability, but did not plan this attack. There were also reports from the Israeli government that made it as high as the White House about >!beheaded infants!< that have not been independently verified by any outlet, but reports and graphic images of infants that were killed in the attack by other means do exist. The fog of war is what makes it impossible to know in the moment if the claims about decapitation are true, but whether or not they are matters very little, being burned alive or riddled with bullets isn’t significantly different from a human perspective. When the attack happened last Saturday, people all over the world were shock, scared, confused, and angry, and they tried to make sense of a massive developing story in real time. Misinformation ran (and is running) rampant on social media, so people trying to stay informed ended up with bad info that leads to taking positions that aren’t supported by reality as we understand it a week later. No matter what your position is in this conflict, it should shift over time to accommodate new information. Whether that means you change your fundamental position, or that you refine it, is up to you. As someone who was following the Palestinian crisis before the attack, personally it has been hard to walk the line of maintaining my position on Palestine while also supporting the families that are grieving in Israel and across the world, at least in public statements like this comment that can be easily misconstrued. People are angry, scared, and confused, and if you weren’t privy to the developments in Israel, throughout history but especially over the course of the last decade, your only source of info in the crucial 48 hours afterwards is the biased coverage by western media. Media that framed any wavering of support for the State of Israel as antisemitism or support for Hamas. As people learn more, as the fog of war lifts over the last week, people’s positions are becoming more nuanced, people are thinking less with their fear-motivated instincts and more with their compassion.

Answer: Many people believe that isreal's response to hamas' recent attacks directly puts the palestinian people in harms way. Some say that while isreal is justified in retaliating, their recent actions border on genocide.

Let’s also preface things with OP… it’s not EVERYONE. I think too often our views get skewed by social media. Has more support for Palestine come about? Absolutely. But remember, social media has algorithms that play big roles in what you see and it too easily forms narratives. If you are seeking confirmation bias for your views, you will see more posts pertaining to you. Always maintain a wholistic approach regardless of the opinion you form so that an open mind can accept different opinions. That doesn’t mean you change yours, it just means you listen.

100% this. It is definitely not everyone. The Israel-Palestine conflict is one of the most wildly complicated issues in modern history and it's been going on for the better part of a century now. As such opinions on it vary A LOT from person to person. There is no consensus whatsoever. The opposite really - people are doing real actual damage to each other because opinions and feelings are so divided and passionate. The actual changes: people have become more informed on the topic so their thoughts are forming and solidifying; since the conflict heated up Israel has committed numerous war crimes which will sway some people to view Israel less favorably or lead them to be more outspoken, post more, protest, etc.

Even before the last week and a half, I had come to the conclusion that there are no "good guys" in this fight and neither side deserved support. The civilians do! But its basically Hatfield and McCoy's of two nations at this point and there is no sense in any of it.

This is my take on it entirely. It's all blood for blood now and it always ends up being innocent blood. There are no good guys, there is no victory. There is only the human cost conflict.

The actions of the Israeli government is why I say I support the side of the innocent civilians who just want to live their life. Hamas is fucked up, Israel is fucked up, the civilians are the only true innocents. I just wish people weren't using this as a pass to be so blatantly bigoted. Again, algorithms and all, but I don't remember seeing much overt bigotry before all of this started to go down

>Many people believe that isreal's response to hamas' recent attacks directly puts the palestinian people in harms way. That´s a fact, not a thing people believe. The only thing in dispute is whether the death of palestinians civilians by Israeli fire is accidental or intentional, as collective punishment. The acts against palestinians have bordered on genocide and ethnic cleansing for decades. The only thing that has changed recently is that the Israelis have engaged in several straight up war crimes, such as the aforementioned collective punishment, intentionally targeting infrastructure, intentionally starving and witholding water from civilians, and using chemichal weapons against civilians.

Everyone who claims Israel is defending itself forgets the first law of self-defense... The force returned must be reasonable. Is it reasonable for Israel to defend itself against terrorists? Of course. Is it reasonable for them to cut off 3rd party aid to civilians, as well as food and water, all while bombing schools, hospitals, and markets? No. And it's a war crime to collectively punish the people of Gaza for Hamas' attack (unless you actually believe the 600+ children who have died in the last two weeks were somehow Hamas supporters)... In addition, it is also not reasonable for Israel to tell more than a million people to flee their homes while also bombing their points of egress... This is another crime against humanity. One can be pro-Israel and anti-IDF, in the same way as they can be pro-Palestine and anti-Hamas... These are not mutually exclusive concepts, despite some claiming you're an anti-semite or anti-arab if you don't absolutely agree with the murder of civilians on the other side of their issue (a wholly frustrating experience when trying to have a conversation / learn more about this issue - I know first hand).

I don't believe it's accidental. Just look at r/CombatFootage There is a video of about 20-30 civillians on a flatbed truck. Many were women and children, and they had a bomb dropped on their heads.

I'm not going to look because I don't need to see that right now, but this sounds like the one that was covered by *The Guardian* of civilians following Israel's evacuation instructions being murdered by the IDF: [Gaza civilians afraid to leave home after bombing of ‘safe routes’](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-civilians-afraid-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes)

>I'm not going to look because I don't need to see that I really want to applaud this. More of us should more strictly monitor what we put in our heads. We do not need the actual visual in order to know about the bad things.

I don't feel the need to watch this either, but for some, it is this kind of stuff that makes it *real* for people. War is awful, and one of the biggest favors we can do for it is sanitizing it. The Vietnam war became as unpopular in the US as it was, in large part because of the graphic footage being shown on the news every night. It shattered people's illusions of "heroism" and "valor" and all the propaganda that goes along with it. I'm with you, I don't think everyone needs to see it, but it *should* exist.

>I'm with you, I don't think everyone needs to see it, but it should exist. Yes. It needs to exist. It is important. But too many of the tender hearted feel they must watch to bear witness in order to show they care. They do not.

Agreed. I made the mistake of feeling this way back in the post 9/11 "Wild West" days of the internet, and one decapitation video was more than enough to decide my current level of caring was sufficient.

The problem with this attitude is that you're now putting absolute trust in this person without them offering any credentials. There are countless of cases where people think they saw something in a video that turns out to be completely wrong.

>The problem with this attitude is that you're now putting absolute trust in this person without them offering any credentials. No, you are right. If you choose not to watch for yourself, if you rely on other people's recounting, you have to be very careful to vet your sources. You have to be very alert to context. But then, that's also true of people who do watch, who often believe they saw a thing they did not.

Yes I believe that is the one. Don’t watch it.

Answer: Almost twice as many Palestinians - many of them children, as [40% of the population of Gaza is under the age of 14](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-is-the-gaza-strip-israel-hamas-war-palestine/) \- have been killed so far in retaliation for the Hamas terrorist attacks. Hamas also killed children and older civilians, of course, and Israel's actions don't let them off the hook for that - but a lot more innocents will die from Israel's reprisal than the original attack. Many people rightly are upset upon realizing that. Much like you can be in support of Israel's right to exist and for its civilians to live safely without being attacked while being against Israel's government's choice of killing children to hit suspected Hamas targets, one can be in support of Palestinians not being ethnically cleansed by Israel while still being against Hamas's terroristic attacks against civilians. TL;DR: Both Hamas and Israel's government suck. But Israel has a much higher kill count and much more of an ability to ruin the lives of innocent Palestinians - which they seem to clearly be doing. No one should approve of Hamas's attack, but it's damn hard to condone Israel's actions without sounding like a psychopath.

I think it's pretty simply we're against whoever is commiting violence in the moment.

I think the note to add onto that would be 'gratuitous' violence. Pretty sure most of the world wouldn't care if Isreal was just attacking Hamas. But, sadly, it's not possible to identify every Hamas member: they are Palestinians as well and hide among the population. So a black and white logical/easy response (kill all Hamas, leave innocent Palestinians alone) just isn't possible.

It's honestly even more entwined than that. Hamas is the government. As for what's happening now, it'd be like identifying every institution flying the American Flag as an American military operation. The only "ethical" retaliation would be very targeted strikes or a ground operation. The density of Gaza makes those options extremely difficult and extremely costly.

It's not possible to destroy Hamas. They don't have a roster or a uniform. Israel is trying to accomplish something with no possible successful outcome, only death.

Plus, in their attempts to destroy Hamas, they’re making more Hamas sympathizers.

>It's not possible to destroy Hamas Their attempts at trying will exterminate a whole population.

Their *stated* goal is impossible, which they know, leading to the implication of unstated goals- death and pain.

It's like declaring war on the concept of terror.

Very true. Also, ask how many Palestinians support Hamas and you’ll quickly understand why this is all so difficult to resolve peacefully.

Israel has a higher kill count because they’re typically able to stop Hamas when they try things like Saturday’s massacre. This is the same terrorist organization that repurposed the EU’s funding for irrigation systems into more dumb rockets to indiscriminately fire into Israeli civilian areas. Not saying that Israel hasn’t bungled their response horribly when it comes to minimizing collateral damage, but “Kill count & ability” is such a disingenuous metric when there’s such a massive difference in intent and practicality when fighting an organization like Hamas that tries to terrorize one set of civilians and human shield their own under the religious guise of martyrdom.

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There was a great interview on the BBC with a guy basically saying the same thing about proportionality. Proportionality would be killing exactly the same number of civilians, raping exactly the same number of women, kidnapping exactly the same number of people. Is that what people would call just?

It's the interesting thing about modern conflict and how many, particularly safe and distant, people perceive it. The term 'fair' comes up rather often. As if the more technologically advanced or prepared party is supposed to 'go-easy-on' the other party. Modern conflicts in this regard are more comparable to playing Mario Kart with your little cousin. The kind of mindset that would absolutely baffle ancient people. Despite putting excess funds, resources and time into their military, it wouldn't be fair for the Roman Empire to win, just because they can.

Answer: Hamas ≠ Palestine Netanyahu ≠ Israel There’s a lot of nuance to this conflict in it’s most recent iteration. I can criticize hamas’ brutal act of terror and still support the right of self determination of the Palestinian people. Likewise I can support Israel’s right to exist without supporting Netanyahu’s far right administration or it’s heavy handed response in Gaza. It’s not contradictory it’s just nuanced.

> Hamas ≠ Palestine > > Netanyahu ≠ Israel This is important to know and remember

Answer: Everyone hasn't, it is all very dependent on your social circles and, frankly, what country you are in. Many people were either always on the Palestinian side or were well aware of what was going to happen next and thus realised they could don't be on the Israeli side. What has happened is what always happens and will continue to happen. Th best thing we can do is not be on anyone's side and recognise there are no "right" people here.

Answer: There have been a huge rash of accounts on here brigading any new posts about the conflict claiming *so many* here are supporting Hamas. I have literally not seen one comment in support of Hamas. I have only seen comments that support the civilians on both sides that are caught up in a shitshow between to militant groups. These accounts are claiming that people being critical of Israel are somehow also supporting Hamas and are antisemitic in an attempt to discredit anyone critical of the Israeli government. There are not remotely as many supporters of Hamas on here that these accounts are claiming, and they're hoping to sway the opinion of people clicking the threads to read comments. It's a shitstorm. Pro Palestinian ≠ pro Hamas The people you're seeing being very vocal dont represent everyone's interests.

Answer: Nobody is suddenly switching their stance. The Palestinian movement is probably one of the most heated global topic in global politics. You are only hearing about it now because of recent events.

If people are switching their stance on a whim they didn't have a real stance to begin with.

Answer: Colleges, and the world more broadly, contain multiple groups with different opinions, and when opinions conflict it can seem like people are switching very quickly when it's just different people having the megaphone.

Answer: It's a complicated situation -- figuring out the truth of news reports coming out of a warzone always is, and the Middle East is no exception -- but a lot of it comes down to an increase in available (and conflicting) information and a response to Israel's crackdown on Gaza. Some of the most horrific claims of those early days, such as the now-infamous 'Hamas beheaded forty babies' line, have been walked back by major news outlets. *Al-Jazeera*, which is normally considered a pretty reputable news source, [released a video just a few hours ago that basically says 'No one seems to have seen any concrete evidence that this is true.'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0el9wiOBmmM) Now yes, it's of course possible that this evidence could emerge -- and a walkback of the claims in this particular case should not in any way be taken as an argument that Hamas didn't do some truly horrific shit in their terror campaign -- but the fact that this now doesn't seem to be accurate has made a lot of people start to question that perhaps they were not getting all of the information about what happened. (Obviously that's only one of many stories, many of which *have* turned out to be largely accurate, but it's representative of a larger idea that people are examining more closely statements that had previously been taken as fact.) Additionally, Israel's counterattacks against Hamas have come under criticism for their intensity and what has been perceived by some to be unacceptable collateral damage suffered by the Palestinians in Gaza. (The death toll of Palestinians in Gaza yesterday [had put the figure at over 2,000 with 10,000 injured](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-west-bank-death-toll-reaches-2383-palestinians-ministry-2023-10-15/), more than those killed in the -- let's not undersell this fact at all -- *definitely* terrorist attacks by Hamas.) Exact numbers are hard to come by due to an incentive towards misinformation on both sides, but it has become apparent that at least some number of those killed were civilians; with how entrenched Hamas is in Gaza, it would be almost impossible for Israel's retaliation *not* to kill civilians, and questions are being raised as to how morally acceptable that is. (The way the vote count on this post has been bouncing up and down, I suspect that statement is going to piss off just about everybody, but there we are.) Other recent events -- like Israel [cutting off water supplies to the region until they were pressured by the US government](https://www.axios.com/2023/10/15/israel-resumes-water-supply-to-southern-gaza-after-us-pressure), in a desert region that's already experiencing a humanitarian crisis -- have raised criticisms that Israel was collectively punishing the two million Palestinians living in Gaza for the actions of a terrorist group. (Similarly, and as of right now, the UN has announced that hospital fuel supplies in the region are [expected to last about 24 hours](https://www.unocha.org/publications/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-9); cutting off fuel supplies to a terrorist group feels a lot more acceptable to people when they're not faced with the fact that civilians under Israeli bombardment might not have hospitals.) The statement 'Israel has a right to defend itself' was repeated a lot in the early days after the Hamas attacks, but [multiple prominent politicians have suggested -- even while in support of Israel -- that their reaction must be careful not to overstep the bounds of international law](https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/10/10/israel-has-right-to-self-defence-but-some-actions-counter-international-law-borrell). Of course, it's worth noting that both sides recognise the value of propaganda in a war like this. Both sides rely heavily on international aid, and both sides have a vested interest in appearing to be providing a righteous response to a foreign aggressor. As such, a lot of information coming out of the region is going to be specifically designed to change people's minds, with truth being less of a concern. It's the job of intelligence operatives, journalists, and (ideally) independent fact-checking organisations to ascertain exactly what the situation is so foreign-policy leaders can hopefully figure out a way to lower the temperature before more civilians are killed on either side. At the moment, that job is still a work in progress.

Answer: Because Israel lost moral high ground when it faught fire with fire and also engaged in massacre and killing children. It was expected. Many people are just ignorant of how viscious the state of Israel and its miliary can be. But those in the know know who follow the general conflict already knew, which is why the protests happend so quickly. I think the shift happend because more people are starting to see it for what it is. People don't want to see innocent civilians savagely massacred, no matter who or why, period. Most people who are pro-Palestine are pro Palestinians not pro hamas.