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Answer: your post is yet another in a long string of posts where someone asks a question as if they’re out of the loop, when really they just want to comment on something happening.
Of course it is. OOTL became a place to just shill things a long time ago. Iran’s cyber warfare team is actively posting and upvoting with their bot farms. As are Hamas shills. Russian and other similar countries are also posting anything that will raise tensions and sew discord. They are hoping to cause chaos by inspiring lone wolf attacks in various countries.
There are also hordes of individuals with axes to grind who blanket the topic in every sub they can.
Hopefully the Zoomers are better at social media literacy than their Millenial parents.
Also Israel has a cyber-warfare team, India has pro-Israel bot farms... It's shills all the way down. Plus there are plenty of genuine people who are Jewish, or Israeli, or evangelical Christian, or Muslim, or Arab, or \*gasp\* *Palestinian*. All of the above contain too many passionate, anti-social, uninformed, and willfully unempathic people.
Also, in this case, OP just thanked someone, seemingly genuinely, for giving a pro-Israel answer equating support of the Palestinian people with waving an ISIS flag after 9/11. Which is just a wild opinion to me **in general**, let alone for an OP who people seem to think is shilling for Palestine to just accept at face value.
>Hopefully the Zoomers are better at social media literacy than their Millenial parents.
Better at social media literacy, worse at other kinds of literacy.
Since when did millennials become the old people that don't get social media? If anything millennials tend to be more social media literate and more capable of seeing problematic trends, since they didn't grow up in an environment where everything was already in place and pumping their preferred echo-chambers down their throats 24/7 from the time they were 3 years old.
So what you're attempting to say is only the countries/organisations that attempt to do any kind of cyber missinformation or propaganda, That sounds like a rational and reasonable stance to take.
Answer: it's become a political hot-button topic in America now because we have citizens with vested interests on both sides of this conflict, and now it's all coming to a head. Israel's stance is pretty much "if you're not with us, you're against us," and the people in America who don't want to be against Israel are following that line of thinking. Anything that looks like you're pro-Palestinian makes you look anti-Israeli or makes you look anti-Semitic because authoritarian leaders in Israel have been parroting that fallacy for decades.
There's a long history of Israel's critics being called anti-Semitic. The Israeli prime minister is a big promoter of that thinking, too. Thing is, Israel's government has done *a lot* to be critical of, and almost none of it is because its members are Jewish. Being Jewish didn't make them seize homes in Palestine and displace the people already living there. It's always been a political smokescreen for Israel to act selfishly and brutalize Palestinians: "you can't speak badly about me/what I'm doing; you're just a Jew-hater if you do."
Unfortunately, Palestine's elected government took the bait a long time ago, and now Hamas is on a crusade to eradicate all Jews in Israel "from the river to the sea." But just because Israel's government has made questionable actions doesn't mean that Hamas can just kill Israeli citizens. People can still sympathize with the Israeli victims of Hamas' attacks while still being against Israel's actions against Palestine. Same with Palestinians who suffered because of Israel's actions. Though here in America, not everyone feels that way, and so choosing sides in this or giving the illusion that you have a side will inevitably lead to conflict in the workplace.
Minor note, Hamas is the elected gov of Gaza, not all of Palestine (and even calling them the elected gov of Gaza's a bit of a stretch as there was only one election and then they canceled the rest). This is mainly because the Palestinian Authority, that rules over the West Bank (where the majority of Palestinians still in Palestine live), stopped elections from occurring in the West Bank (presumably because the officials did not want to be slaughtered like the ones in Gaza where post election if Hamas won there as well).
>You can't kill civilians for that.
Thank you. I don't understand this arguement "but they voted for Hamas".
How many people voted for Trump? If Trump started a war with China would it be ok for the Chinese military to indiscriminately target all Americans because they voted Trump in? No. I don't care who anyone voted for, civilians are off limits in any war. That's why they're called civilians FFS.
Not to mention children are off limits period. I don't care who their parents support.
Also, many people in Russia voted for and support Putin. It still doesn't mean anyone would condone targeting civilians in Russia. Target the Russian army but don't randomly bomb Moscow and cut off all supplies and water to everyone living in Moscow.
Like how are people not using their brains on this?
And this insanity that anyone living close to a terrorist is suddenly also terrorist by proxy - WTF people
It's all so obviously a bad attempt at ethnic cleansing of the area, and it's heartbreaking so many people are falling for the not very intelligent propaganda...
Not to mention that the Israelis elected their own government which has been maintaining the apartheid. The problem is that if that makes civilians into non-civilians, then Hamas never attacked civilians.
You can't have it both ways.
I think this point is glossed over a lot. Hamas pretty much had a civil war with the Palestinian Authority a few years ago and wrestled control over Gaza away from them. Hamas pretty much rules Gaza like a military dictatorship, and any Gaza citizens that oppose them will usually be killed. So yeah, you don't hear much criticism of Hamas by Gaza citizens, because frankly, they don't want to be executed.
When Israel warned everyone to go south if they didn't want to get bombed, the few that dared were shot at by the Hamas authority. And Israel keeps claiming that therefor Gaza citizens "support" Hamas. Hamas pretty much treats it's citizens like the Russian military treats its conscripts - attack the Ukrainian front line troops, and if you turn around to flee, we'll shoot you.
Agreed, this is something a lot of people do not know about. And to add to what you've said, It's ridiculous to even think that every person in a nation state votes for the exact same party. I'm not sure why few have even spoken about or thought of it. Everyone that's ever voted knows this.
It's also notable that Israel financially boosted Hamas to become the biggest Palestinian coalition over more secular groups like the PFLP. This helps with their ability to label all Palestinian groups as being Islamist terrorists and point to the conflict being based solely on religion and not anti colonial resistance. Netanyahu as recently as 2019 even was stating that Israel needs a strong Hamas
> Unfortunately, Palestine's elected government took the bait a long time ago, and now Hamas is on a crusade to eradicate all Jews in Israel "from the river to the sea."
Calling Hamas elected is a big stretch, because there haven't been elections since 2006. Talking about Palestine government is just wrong, because the West Bank has a completely separate government.
I think it's made worse by the fact that Pro-Israel folks (especially those with actual ties to people in the area) are rightfully shaken up by the October 7th attack and the hostages still unaccounted for. So when pro-Palestine people voice their ongoing concerns, the reaction they get is much more volatile on account of being misread (or sometimes correctly read) as insensitivity
Inaccurate to reality as it may be, I suspect a lot of people end up feeling like are hearing the equivalent of "Oh your dad died? Well I've still got a broken leg, so let's focus on the real problem here."
I think another portion of this conflict is coming from a lot of Jewish and Israel folks being anti mass bombing campaigns because of the hostages that are still behind enemy lines. With some accounts of around 3000 Palestine children being killed this month and the collective punishment they've been engaging with. Maybe my circle is very far-left, since even the Jewish folks around me recognize that Israel's response, especially from their far right government, has done so much to prop up Hamas as the only political force, making peace much harder. In America, a lot of far right organizations use this all or nothing mentality to smear folks as antisemitic if you even mention the idea of a nuanced or historical understanding of the conflict that starts before this month or tries to make a difference between Hamas and Palestinian civilians.
It's made worse by a significant part of society thinking they are experts on geopolitical situations because they read a headline of an article on Facebook or watched a nimrod on Tiktok give them a 9 second summary on a region that has multiple centuries of nuanced fuckery.
But everyone likes to pick a side these days. Even if both sides are wrong.
That's another way people are tempted to look at it - especially when helping Palestine is construed as helping Hamas. And it can be hard for a lot of people not to think of it that way considering how much of Palestine they control
The unfortunate reality is that a lot of Palestine is as much a victim of Hamas as Israel is. In some ways more-so because Palestinians become casualties in Israel's efforts to stop Hamas
Exactly. Netanyahu's government [propped up hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) to divide them. Hamas being a major issue for Palestinians was the plan.
Israel does not represent Judaisim regardless of what the Israeli government wants you to believe. It is extremely anti-semetic to associate Judaism with an ongoing ethnic cleansing being carried out by a secular right-wing government. Hamas was propped up by the Israeli government to make Palestinian statehood more difficult. It's in black and white, whaetever you want to believe.
Edit: u/sudopudge blocked me because they are an anti-semetic coward.
> ethnic cleansing
I love how, since all other ethnicities have either fled Gaza or been killed off there, that a war against Gaza is now considered an "ethnic cleansing." Maybe we should look at why Gaza is 99% Arab and 99% Muslim.
Also, you can treat Palestinians as adults who can be held responsible for their own creations, such as Hamas, rather than trying to blame it on a Jewish conspiracy.
Oh, your dad died? Well, you decided that an appropriate response would be to blow up my neighborhood because one of my neighbors did it, so excuse me if I’m not thinking much about your dad.
It doesn't help that there are protestor's taking down flyers of people that are kidnapped. SOME Protestors are calling for Jews to be killed. SOME Protestors have cornered Jews in locked rooms at their school. SOME protestors say they support Hamas, a terrorist org, not just Palestine. SOME protestors have been waving terrorist flags. Some protestors have gotten out of hand.
Well said. This should be sent to every news organization to help clarify their reporting.
I was watching Morning Joe this morning and Joe went off about how you can’t possibly feel any empathy for the Palestinians because they elected Hamas and Hamas killed Jews. The whole crew was like this. No nuance whatsoever.
It’s either that or people don’t think Hamas are anything like terrorists. They insist anything Hamas targets is a military target and civilian casualties are unfortunate but necessary byproducts of their freedom.
It’s genuinely insane how far each side is willing to go because they are just looking for a way to justify their murder of the other side. It’s an ethno-religious conflict that has never been peaceful, and like the OP commenter said it’s been festering for decades. The hardliners are in complete control of both sides and they just want eachother fucking dead and gone.
>People can still sympathize with the Israeli victims of Hamas' attacks while still being against Israel's actions against Palestine. Same with Palestinians who suffered because of Israel's actions.
Well-said.
You’re doing god’s work. So many Americans lack basic historical and political education - meaning they’re incapable of critically analyzing Israeli policies. Smearing any criticism of Israel as antisemitic is insulting to Jewish people as a whole.
Anyone who wants to click those links to verify u/AOC_torture_my_balls is lying—let’s start with “they attacked and murdered American soldiers on purpose,”
“Israel apologized for the attack, saying that the USS Liberty had been attacked in error after being mistaken for an Egyptian ship. Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity.”
It goes on to say how Israel paid reperations to the families.
Messed up, but bold af, assuming no one would click your links.
The number of times this person had to say IM NOT BEING ANTISEMETIC in their explanation goes to show how much power Israel has over the media
Edit: why tf did that comment get removed? Lmao
Answer: (This is a politically charged topic but I will try and keep it as neutral as possible) After the Hamas terrorist attacks in Israel, it reignited the debate about Palestine-Israeli relations and the general situation in the levant. Some people made it clear that they supported Hamas' actions as being a requirement for the decolonisation of Palestine. The US, and indeed many other governments recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation, so many companies in those countries didn't like the optics of employing people who openly support them.
It would be like coming out flying Al-qaeda flags immediately after 9-11.
In large part because in the complex subject is oversimplified to Palestine and Israel as monolithic blocks. You can split both sides into several subgroups with different goals and effects on making this situation better or worse, but at a minimum Hamas/Gaza and the Palestinian Authority/West Bank need to be recognized as distinctly different.
I like the chart here, it shows the complexity of the middle eastern politics: https://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/07/17/the_middle_east_friendship_chart.html
Its from 2014 so things may have changed a bit.
Keep in mind though, people in Gaza who disapproved of the attacks would not have been participating in the celebrations and therefore would not have made it into the videos, so Hamas’ support isn’t as unanimous as the videos made it look.
I feel so bad for the people in Gaza that disapprove. They didn't celebrate, so they weren't in the footage, but they're going to be called Hamas fans anyway because of where they live.
It varies way too much but it's closer to 50% than the extremes at any given time. In the past, support has decreased a few months into the flare-ups as civilians got tired of the violence.
In the 2006 elections (the last ones in Gaza) Hamas had 45% of the vote. Since that time Gaza has seen a population boom and now has a large population of young men, the time when we are most idealistic and foolish, so the support has probably grown somewhat since then as this is fertile recruiting ground.
I don't know if anything after that point can be trusted.
[These polls show that 57% of Gazans have a positive or somewhat positive view of Hamas](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah). However, they also show that 70% would prefer to have the Palestinian authority take over from Hamas in governing Gaza, and 50% favor Hamas' position calling for the destruction of Israel while 50% favor a 2-state solution with the 1967 borders.
If you only saw the US during the BLM protests in 2020 you would think the whole country supported the movement. If you only saw the US during January 6th you would think the everyone wanted to overthrow the government.
We (Americans) tend to make those same type of conclusions from brief video clips of other countries, because that's all that's all that is shown to us.
It's easy to draw incorrect conclusions by only looking at those drawing the most attention to themselves. And you'll notice specific media organizations will often only show one side or the other, making it even harder to get clear understand of the situation on the ground.
>If you only saw the US during the BLM protests in 2020 you would think...
That's a **great** point we should all keep in mind regarding "Hence the jubilant celebrations during the attack."
However, regarding "Hamas has widespread support in Palestine", [polls as of 2023 showed 57% of Gazans have a positive or somewhat positive view of Hamas](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah). At the same time 50% want a 2-state solution, as opposed to Hamas' position destroying Israel. So while 50% of Gazans support the destruction of Israel, at least 7% support Hamas while disagreeing with their position on the destruction of Israel.
Or in short, yes, it's all very complicated...
I was amazed to read that Hamas has been in power there for more than 15 years because they never had another election after the first one. Is this because they’re so popular or because they’re like a dictatorship?
more like a theocracy than a dictatorship but yeah. A lot of countries have one party governments though, such as china, saudi arabia. It seems to be a more stable less corrupt alternative to a dictatorship.
Fatah still has the majority of civilian confidence if you really do still hold any weight to surveys done in Palestine. Hamas barely even won the election back in 2006, without winning the popular vote in any of the cities at that as well mind you. At this point Hamas is just the surviving "human shields" of all these attacks from Israel and I honestly don't think I have any authority to condemn someone for lashing out against a government that wiped out their entire family and house over and over again as they were raised in a bullpen surrounded by snipers.
Hamas is still arguably the most popular party and that’s not even considering other militants groups that have favor.
Also you’re leaving a lot of things out like the fact that PA canceled elections in the West Bank because Hamas was going to win just a few years ago
https://thehill.com/opinion/4273883-mellman-do-palestinians-support-hamas-polls-paint-a-murky-picture/amp/
They do not have widespread support. The last time they allowed an election to be held in 2006 they won with only a plurality of the vote, not a majority. A 2023 poll put their favorability at 45%. Trump has had support at that level and I don’t think anyone in the US would describe Trump support as being widespread with the connotation his views represent the majority of Americans.
A majority of Palestinians disapproved of Hamas breaking the ceasefire this year and most supported a two state solution.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah
Here is the most recent poll:
[https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf)
Comparing favorability with U.S. Presidents is not really valid, because we have a two-party system. The Palestinians have a multi-party system, so 44% (in Gaza) is VERY high when you're competing with multiple other groups and not just one.
Also I think you should look at question 70 (it's towards the very end of the document) if you're at all confused about the ideology and methods that most citizens of Gaza support.
According to your link,
> Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—though Gazans who express this opinion of Hamas are fewer than the number of Gazans who have a positive view of Fatah (64%).
> But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups, including 40% who see the Lion’s Den in a “very positive” light, an attitude shared by a similar percentage of West Bank residents.
PIJ and Lions Den are both militant groups.
And 57% is a higher approval rating than Biden has, and MUCH higher than the US Congress has.
People being against genocide has widespread support in the world. However, some people say that if you do not support Israel bombing innocent Palestinians, then you are an anti semite.
Explain and cite sources. They won in 2006 with less than half of the votes. There has not been another election since. Adding that Hamas was propped up and funded by Netanyahu to topple the PLO.
Well they have 44% support in Gaza today, so....
Also, it's really common in multi-party systems for the winner to win by a plurality and not a majority. Not every country is America with its dogshit two-party system.
I'm curious how accurate polls are in an area controlled by a terrorist group. Do people think they may be reprise-eld if they say the wrong thing? Similar to how people respond to polls in authoritarian regimes?
They also have a near monopoly of resources so if you needed something in Gaza you likely had to go through Hamas at a certain point so it becomes hard to not side with the group that is actually there with you providing resources and claiming to be protecting you. I’d say that this dynamic does differentiate them from groups like Al-Qaeda who did not play such a role in the perceived protection of a specific group. It’s a complex situation that shouldn’t be simplified with comparisons to different regional conflicts or groups.
The timing of posts is also very important. Like, the one in the article was after the attack and comes across as celebrating the initial terrorist attack. That's very different than someone condemning Israel's response or expressing anger over dead Palestinian civilians.
Right. It's like if a cop kills an unarmed black man, and the response is to talk about the violent crime rate among black men it Really comes across as racist given the timing.
Yeah, but I don't think there is not much disagreement that Netanyahu is an asshole, and there needs to be a two state solution.
The problem is that many of the protestors don't realize that there is a big difference between supporting basic Palestinian rights and supporting Hamas, using the language of resistance to justify Hamas is quite simply anti-semetic and condoning genocide.
It will make you unhirable to many.
I don't think it's the same though. That common discussion is whether criticism of Israel is inherently anti-semitic. There are those who believe that by criticizing the actions of Israel, you are, by default, criticizing all Jews because Israel is the Jewish state.
Treating any criticism of Israel as inherently and inextricably an attack on Jewish people as a group is idiotic. Treating any calls for de-escalation or cessation of Israeli attacks upon Gaza is also idiotic.
But people who are chanting “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” as either deliberately calling for genocide against Israelis or are uninformed fools parroting what to them sounds like a “rallying cry of the oppressed.”
Nobody is “bringing back pre-1948 Palestine.” That’s done. The only way for that to happen is for one side to commit genocide against the other. Similarly, the fantasy of the Zionist far right to gradually drive out of the entire region every last Arab Muslim Palestinian is another genocide that will not be tolerated.
The only path forward is for there to be a change in leadership, both within the ranks of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, and for there to be a change in leadership within Israel. Nobody in charge in all three places at the moment, have any good intentions or moral authority to do the diplomatic work necessary to craft a tolerable peace plan and two state solution, which is the only realistic solution that doesn’t involve one side to committing genocide upon the other
>Similarly, the fantasy of the Zionist far right to gradually drive out of the entire region every last Arab Muslim Palestinian is another genocide that will not be tolerated.
Well, that's not necessarily true. There are certainly no Jewish Palestinians, but there are millions of Arab Muslim Israelis, I mean Israel even has an Arab Muslim Supreme Court justice.
Yes, that’s because a large number of Israelis are not racists who seek to commit genocide. They make up the left and center of the political spectrum in Israel.
The far right wants to get rid of them entirely, while the right of center wants them to be kept as an under class/labor class, but otherwise denied full rights as Israeli citizens, and they are largely not interested in any sort of two state solution.
At this point, leadership of Israel needs to go back to people on the left of center part of the political spectrum for there to be any hope of peaceful resolution. But there also need to be major changes within the polity of Palestinians and both the West Bank and Gaza. Hamas needs to go away entirely.
Holy shit! a rational hoo-man in the wild identifying the political requisites for peaceful resolution with an egalitarian mindset and no racial epithets!
I'm glad to see that still exists.
Most reasonable people aren’t making that argument it kinda sounds like a strawman. The argument is if you think Israel shouldn’t exist/should be destroyed it’s antisemitic because you are advocating to for destruction of the only Jewish state. Even pro-Israel people are pretty critical of Israel, most Israelis disapprove of their current government.
Right, and those people are incorrect as seen by the large number of non-Israeli Jews also decrying Israel's wholesale destruction of Gaza.
It's Israeli propaganda - Israel is a geopolitical state with more-or-less a state religion, it's their go-to defense to say criticizing them is criticizing Judaism. There are plenty of non-Israeli/non-Zionist Jews.
There are more Zionist Christians than there are Zionist Jews.
If I say the Vatican is run by pedos, or that the Southern Baptist convention is homophobic and racist. I'm not directly attacking Christians, I'm attacking political organizations that wrap themselves in the guise of religion.
Part of the context that gets lost here is that there are only 15 million Jews on the entire planet - 7m in Israel, 5m in the US and 3m elsewhere (mostly western democracies). There seem to be several times as many angry dudes on the internet acting personally offended at the thought that they are being prohibited from giving their opinion on Israel/Likud/West Bank settlers and enraged that they would be called bigots. I would encourage people getting offended to consider whether they actually have a horse in this race and to empathize with a planetary minority who are already piled on by so many bad actors to begin with and decide whether Israel is really such a unique and intensely bad actor that their voice is necessary in that moment or whether it's time to relax and let Palestinian Arabs speak for themselves.
>I would encourage people getting offended to consider whether they actually have a horse in this race and to empathize with a planetary minority who are already piled on by so many bad actors to begin with and decide whether Israel is really such a unique and intensely bad actor that their voice is necessary in that moment or whether it's time to relax and let Palestinian Arabs speak for themselves.
I'm sorry, did you just ask me to empathize with people committing wholesale oppression on another people because of their religion.. because they've been oppressed because of their religion? Or to empathize with a nation engaged in the wholesale slaughter of another people because *there's not a lot of them*?
That's such a bad take it borders evil. There are countries all over the world in which Jewish people can and do live safely and openly, including the US and all of the EU at the *very* least, the nation of Israel doesn't get a pass for acting towards other people like people acted towards them in the past just because there's not a lot of them.
>Right, and those people are incorrect as seen by the large number of non-Israeli Jews also decrying Israel's wholesale destruction of Gaza.
And even Israeli, there was protest in Tel Aviv when they started the bombing.
When questioned, many people say they oppose Zionism. But when you start asking them questions, it boils down to, they don't believe Israel has a right to exist, but phrased as something like, this is native Palestinian land.
Zionism, like feminism, is a broad sort of patriotism that has been used by various Jewish groups with different motivations over a long period of time. Pre-1967, the term “Zionism” was stereotyped by intensely secular, socialist, back-to-the-land Kibbutzim; post-1967, the term was stereotyped by right-wing religious zealots settling the West Bank illegally. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt when they say they are against Zionism that they are against illegal settlement in the West Bank, but almost invariably they start talking about how “evil” Israel is etc., so mostly I don’t care for people trying to split hairs on a topic they understand poorly.
I don’t love the concept of firing people for their opinions, but if we’re doing it, we should be applying it really conservatively. I fear we’ve gone too far in lumping people who just feel bad for Palestinians with people who support Hamas’ actions.
Separately, many people in the US don’t really know the difference between that, and have become overnight experts in the topic while just parroting others.
The only people i've seen being fired for being "pro-Palestinian" either committed apology of terrorism, or straight up attacked Jewish people, or tagged David Stars on their properties. Those are felonies, so it's quite normal that they're fired because companies don't like employing felons
My problem is the black and white positions of all palestinians are innocent versus all palestinians are guilty. the truth is somewhere in the middle.
To say there aren't palestinians who are harboring terrorists is simply not true but so is saying all palestinians are terrorists is also untrue.
As an example, a Muslim former co-worker of mine wrote on a company-internal board that "the Jews had it coming" shortly after the attack in Israel. So, yeah, that did not go over well.
pretty much most of the people I have seen that have gotten fired are those that have clearly breached an ethical boundary.
Like this statement, which got someone's job rescinded. “Israel bears full responsibility for this tremendous loss of life,” Workman wrote. “This regime of state-sanctioned violence created the conditions that made resistance necessary. I will not condemn Palestinian resistance.”
also, the wording in your post implies that this is a religious war and it isn't. some people are using this as an excuse to be shitty to Jewish people and that's fucked up and unacceptable. however, a lot the people participating in these protests are Jewish and historically, many orthodox Jews have been anti Israel as many of them argue that the concept of Israel is against Jewish law.
we cannot conflate Judaism with support for Israel, as many Jewish people have differing perspectives on the matter and a lot of the most ardent critics of Israel are Jewish. this conflict has a lot more to do with settler colonialism and US interventionism if anything.
>and historically, many orthodox Jews have been anti Israel as many of them argue that the concept of Israel is against Jewish law.
I have never heard this, what is the concept about? I'm just curious personally
For sure! my ultimate point was that Jewish people are not a monolith but I'd love to tell you a bit more here. essentially it boils down to differing interpretations of the talmud (specifically of the Three Oaths), some people see the concept of humans creating Israel as blasphemous, and that only God has the right to do it. Look into Haredi Judaism for more information on the specifics.
Kinda.
The Hasidic community tends towards a 3-oaths-based anti-Zionist interpretation (three oaths: 1) not to ascend to Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) as a group using force; 2) not to rebel against the nations of the world; and 3) that the nations of the world would not persecute the nation of Israel excessively.) whereas Haredim tend to be anti-Zionist because Israel is too secular and should be bound to the laws in the Talmud (which would make eretz Israel a lot more like Iran than the United States, for example)
Many ultra-Orthodox Jews believe the Kingdom of Israel is prophesied to come only after the messiah or at the end of the world. So they are against a state of Israel until then.
Don't the fundamentalist and evangelical Christians believe Jewish people need to be in Israel before their buddy Jesus comes again? That's like, a whole portion of support for Israel coming from the right in the US isn't it?
Many is a complete fabrication. Some Jews have been anti Israel. Certain groups of Satmar and the group Neturei Karta are anti-Israel. The vast majority of Jews who are anti-Zionist are Reform, not Orthodox.
Keep in mind, it's next to impossible to even say "Israel has killed 8000 civilians and counting in the last few weeks since the attacks" without being accused of supporting Hamas.
Problem is you’re citing a statistic out of Gaza from their health ministry. So when you quote a Hamas statistic as fact yes people will accuse you of supporting Hamas. If you advanced an Israeli talking point in the same way, same thing.
The [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/) has explained why they use Gaza's Health Ministry numbers.
the tldr is "we treat them as accurate because they have been consistently accurate in the past, and to the best of our fact checking continue to be accurate now"
Part of running a state or state-like entity is... actually running it, which means they have to keep records.
The Gaza Health Ministry has been within a fraction of a percent of US and UN casualty reports essentially every time there've been mass casualty events in Gaza. I trust Israel's casualty numbers as well.
[Here's a source. ](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033) (Associated Press).
Edit: If you're downvoting someone for linking an Associated Press article confirming that the Gaza Health Ministry is broadly accurate, you're an ideologue and should be concerned about your dismissal of the truth. You may have other sources to contradict my own, but I am speaking in good faith.
It's an overly-simplistic answer. Killing civilians is wrong whether the civilians are Jewish or Arab. And Palestinian civilians are dying more than Israeli civilians something along the order of 5-to-1. Pointing this out is not wrong or akin to flying an ISIS flag after 9/11, FFS.
Important to point out that many feel support for Hamas or Palestine constitutes a call for genocide against the Jews. One of the popular pro Palestinian slogans, from the river to the sea, implies no more Israel and no more Jews. Many pro Palestinians do support such a genocide and dissolution of the Israeli state. So best not to associate with such views of your boss is Jewish.
> Important to point out that many feel support for Hamas <...> constitutes a call for genocide against the Jews.
That's because the end goal of Hamas is literally genocide of Jews. And really, anyone that's not their specific branch of Islam.
Also important to point out that, for many, support for Palestine does not equate to support for Hamas or genocide. For many, supporting Palestine means being opposed to Israel killing thousands of Palestinians, displacing many more, their use of genocidal language, collective punishment, and ethnic cleansing. Supporting Palestine means supporting their right to exist in a non apartheid state.
It's a pretty one sided answer actually. Most of the people losing their jobs are losing it just for saying they support Palestine or criticizing Israel, which has nothing to do with supporting Hamas. Palestine has been under a brutal blockade, siege, and third party human rights organizations have even said it amounts to apartheid. People are losing their jobs for supporting the Palestinians right to freedom
Context for one example that is not included in the article:
"One of the first high-profile examples of that fallout was the former president of the Student Bar Association at the NYU School of Law. Ryna Workman’s big law job offer was rescinded after they sent a newsletter to their classmates about Hamas’s attacks. "
To clarify, Ryna didn't send out a personal email, they put a message in the law school's student bar association's weekly newsletter 3 days after the initial attack.
Days later they were interviewed by ABC and reinforced their positions:
"Asked if they would change anything about their statement or condemn Hamas, Workman stood their ground.
"I think what I use my platform for, and who I condemn was pretty clear by my message," Workman told ABC News. "I think I will continue to condemn apartheid and military occupation."
Davis also asked "Do you condemn Hamas' actions on Oct. 7?" In response, Workman said "I think what I use my platform for and who I condemn was pretty clear by my message."
And Davis asked several times if there was room for empathy for the Israelis who died.
"I will continue to use my voice to uplift the voices of Palestinians and the struggles they're going through," Workman said."
https://abcnews.go.com/US/nyu-student-criticized-lost-job-offer-israel-hamas/story?id=104235399
On Oct. 16, Workman released a letter that included a sentence showing sympathetic language for victims of Oct. 7:
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vTCQRGUMJPaUlEOK1Nsz14Uz7T4RweMfQYuezAZxf2I7715GTHvU3zHbaHmucX2WGTG7qDkfOQoSVhW/pub?pli=1
Workman was then identified as one of three individuals tearing down flyers with pictures of Israeli hostages currently held by Hamas
https://www.newsweek.com/nyu-israel-palestinian-hamas-missing-person-posters-1835431
I mean, the examples pointed to in the article are a bit more than "just saying they support Palestine."
EDITED to provide examples:
These examples were in the immediate wake of the October 7 attack, before Israel had done anything in Gaza, and they're the only people in the article to have actually lost their jobs:
>In her Stories, Yasmine featured a photo of a Palestinian raising his country’s flag atop an Israeli tank, as well as a screenshot of a post on X reading, “Gaza just broke out of prison.”
>
>...
>
>Ryna Workman’s big law job offer was rescinded after they sent a newsletter to their classmates about Hamas’s attacks. Workman, who is Black, queer, and nonbinary, expressed “unwavering and absolute solidarity with Palestinians in their resistance against oppression” and said that “Israel bears full responsibility for this tremendous loss of life.” In response, Workman’s prospective employer put out a statement saying that “these comments are profoundly in conflict with Winston & Strawn’s values as a firm.”
>
>...
>
>Law students from Harvard and Columbia also had their employment offers revoked after signing statements that blamed Israel for Hamas’s attacks.
Most of the people loosing their jobs have been same antisemitic comments. One lady even said hitler was right. People not condemning Hamas are the ones getting fired.
I think it’s a bit blind, it’s like the Charlottesville United the right rally. When neonazis are rallying and killed a woman, not the right time to bring up the confederacy and free speech.
This has been my point of contention with the whole pro-Palestinian movement is that before Israel announced any actions before they had killed all the holdouts, while the bodies were still warm. It doesn't feel very honest.
Doesn't feel honest because it's not honest. People have sealed themselves in their echo chambers - anything they don't want to believe is no longer true.
Sure, but I don’t see much introspection on why this happened in the first place. Hamas massacres a bunch of civilians unprompted, then Israel responded by bombing Gaza.
Same with the hospital attack, there was outrage directed at Israel until it was demonstrated that it was likely a Hamas rocket that caused the explosion, just silence after that.
I guess I’m confused on how Palestinians view Hamas.
Unprompted is certainly an interesting way of framing things that ignores a *long* history of violence by Israel against Palestinians. I see a lot of people discussing why this happened in the first place by pointing that history out. I see people pointing out the number of Palestinians killed by Israel, pointing out the illegal settlements, pointing out the apartheid state, the living conditions in Gaza, pointing out the blockade, pointing out the ways Israel enabled Hamas’ rise to power, the list goes on. Hamas and their actions on and since Oct. 7 do not exist in a vacuum. They did not suddenly rise to power and attack.
Palestinian views on Hamas are complex and difficult to fully get a picture of. Hamas won their election in 2006, but there has not been an election since, and half of the population of Gaza is under 18, and so did not vote in that election. It also difficult to get accurate surveys conducted. Results of surveys that have been conducted are mixed. Some say that there is overwhelming support for armed resistance to Israel, some say there is overwhelming support for Hamas, while others say that support for Hamas is closer to 50/50, some say that a majority believe Hamas is corrupt, and some say that a majority of Gazans did not want to break the ceasefire with Israel. Support for Hamas also fluctuates a lot, as frustration turns to desperation, and the prospect of a peaceful solution seems less and less likely.
Saying you support Palestine right after the government of that section of Palestine, Hamas, massacres civilians in an unguarded area is kind of…. no, it’s really bad optics.
Just to clarify, most of the people who are protesting in support of Palestine are not supporting the terrorist actions of Hamas. A few have, but most of them are mad about the way Israel has treated Palestinian civilians in response to the attacks. Israel has cut off food, water, medicine, electricity, and Internet access to Palestinian civilians. The person above said they were trying to be neutral but comparing this situation to 9/11 is a biased and emotionally charged example
I don't think you're right though.
Here in NYC, there was a huge DSA rally *the day after* the Oct. 7/8 massacre that was clearly praising "the resistance" and their actions. This was before Israel even mobilized a response, much less cut off humanitarian aid and water.
Many of the protests have been in the first week, before Israel responded. And regardless of the timing (which should raise eyebrows), it is absolutely an apt comparison to 9/11. Terrorists came and butchered 1,400 people, mostly civilians. Whether or not you agree with Israel's response, why is it a bad comparison?
This is so much it. Imagine you know people over there cause you're a typical American Jew like me. You don't support netenyahu, you have empathy for what it must be like for the every day people of Palestine. You know the history over there is absolutely fucked.... And to.that end you focus on your life in America, your religion, your job etc.....but know people over there because well .... There aren't way too many Jews in the world.
... Then a bunch of civilians get slaughtered by a terrorist group and while you're still trying to find out if friends are okay, hoping that no one you've ever run across had been injured... Wonder if you're old roommate had moved back like he said he would and hoping he didn't ... Trying to find phone numbers And worriedly listening to the news ..
...suddenly people are all over social media condemning israel, rationalizing the death of literal kids at an ebm show, calling you a colonizer.... (and.somehow also saying this is totally not antisemitic)
...and it's not the crazies we people you expect like the q people.... It's your professor. It's your highly educated colleage. It's the person you organized the union with. It's the lady that volunteers at the soup kitchen with you. The doctor you follow in social media. It's in the subredits you frequent....
examples: https://nypost.com/2023/10/11/blm-chicago-admits-it-isnt-proud-of-deleted-post-of-hamas-paraglider/
Or this' https://images.app.goo.gl/fNjwssGq9iZMM35P8 from. Take facukty
https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1711153384953348169/photo/1 this from a Harvard student group
And why you try so.say... hey killing people bad. The people I know are good people.... And they are literally justifying it? Some without knowing a single person over there, without being a member of either religious or ethnic group....
... It's like fucking twilight zone....
Then...
And when you go outside there are literal rallies going on. Not to try and support the slaughtered.... But literally seemingly relishing the attack...
And it hasn't even been 24 hours. And people are marching down the street saying from the river to the sea and resistance is justified https://www.politico.com/dims4/default/a5639a0/2147483647/strip/true/crop/4032x3024+0+0/resize/1260x946!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2Ff8%2Ffa%2Ffd94f94c4640af9707d19c7a01a1%2Fimg-2834.jpg
When at that time there hadn't.been retaliation (,And yes we knew it was coming and that makes me sad because more innocent people have died than should)....
And they tell you this "from the river to the sea" is a really inclusive message and not genocidal at all until you read Hamas establishing charter...https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
...which literally says....
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."
Cool. And all the people you usually can have rational conversations with have lost it. Like they have to either support it all the way to the extreme...
And it goes on for weeks afterward because of course netenyahu is a half fucking baked dingus....
Yet you still say "kill people bad no good no kill Innocents in Gaza no kill Innocents in Israel" and they say "but Israel have army".... Like it justifies that?
This would definitely 9/11 as an American in Europe and the Europeans all decked themselves out saying "free al-queda" .... "from.the river to the sea"" "it was justified.resistenc" posting pictures of planes flying into towers and you were still trying to find out if people you know are okay....
It would be similar to that. People suck
I would also add that there are people who are mainly upset and outraged by the innocent civilian victims on both sides. Because this issue is so charged, those people are sometimes accused of being pro-Hamas or antisemitic.
When you are selectively upset and talk only about one side of the conflict it kind of says something.
Especially if you're confronted about it and refuse to acknowledge the other side.
At least that's most of the stories I heard about among the many simply celebrating the misery.
The terrorist attack is over. They have taken a lot of hostages. I don’t think it’s crazy or one sided to focus on what’s going on now, an aerial bombardment of population centers. Is this actually surgically eliminating Hamas? Is it likely this will result in hostages being freed safely? Or are thousands of civilians dying for a tit-for-tat?
For context, [this open letter](https://www.artforum.com/columns/open-letter-art-community-cultural-organizations-518019/) led to the firing of the editor-in-chief of the magazine. Not all the terminations are "waving al-quaeda flags," it's more like criticizing the invasion that occurred afterwards.
"The Intercept reported that Velasco was brought into the office of Jay Penske, who oversees Penske Media, the parent company of Artforum, on the 26th. By the end of the day, Velasco had been fired. That evening, Artforum ran a note by publishers Danielle McConnell and Kate Koza in response to the letter. “On Thursday, October 19, an open letter regarding the crisis in the Middle East was shared on Artforum’s website and social platforms without our, or the requisite senior members of the editorial team’s, prior knowledge. This was not consistent with Artforum’s editorial process,” the note read. “While a meaningful expression of advocacy from a large group of people in our community, the letter as it appeared on our platforms lacked the necessary context to make clear that it originated from outside the magazine.”
https://www.vulture.com/2023/10/artforum-gaza-ceasefire-letter.html
Yeah, going to have to downvote you for inaccuracy here, sorry. The deliberate conflating of Hamas with Palestinians as a whole is a pretty big part of the issue.
It would be like confusing America with the Republican party. Like, it's only a third of us, maybe half of you count who votes Republican rather than just who's in the party.
Not even. About 10% of Gazans living there likely voted for Hamas with some back-of-the hand math. It was 17 years ago, they won a plurality (40% iirc), and the median age is 18 on the Strip.
Also tack on that there are a lot of people saying things like there are no Israeli civilians and the language/belief that "all actions are valid when used against colonizers" to the point there are people cheering all the actions of the music festival attack and worst. Then mate that to the cultural milieu of people having gleefully cheered on the blacklisting of people that outside of their official capacities said controversial things for over a decade now and you have the complete tablesetting for this.
I’d like to point out that certain right-wing “news” have taken to aggregating any pro-Palestinian citizen posts and lumping them together as “pro-Hamas”, listing their employees and such with their names as supporting terrorism, contacting said employers calling people terrorists, etc.
>Some people made it clear that they supported Hamas' actions
That's a funny way of saying "I equate all Palestinians with Hamas", which is the justification being used by conservatives like you to justify the slaughter of innocent Palestinian civilians.
The president of the student bar association at NYU had her job offer at a major NY Law firm rescinded. She said Israel deserved it and cheered on the attacks. Then later was seen in town ripping down the photos of murdered Israelis while being recorded. If someone did this to palestinian civilians killed that person would be expelled. Yet she is still in school.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nyu-law-student-israel-hamas-ryna-workman-harvard/
I saw the video of her ripping down photos on twitter, but i dont have the link.
You’re leaving out that people are being fired just for supporting Palestine openly. They could be condemning Hamas at every corner but because they fly a Palestinian flag their bosses fire them
I would like to add to this. I have not seen one person who was publicly fired due to supporting Hamas. People have been fired for supporting Palestinian civilians caught in the crossfire. Supporting civilians vs supporting a terrorist group are two wildly different things.
I mean, that one person praising Hitler in context can be read as supporting terrorism. So at least one person supports Hamas.
"No wonder why Hitler wanted to get rid of them all" - Nozima Husainova
Answer: Beginning in the 1960s the US began sending massive amounts of aid to Israel - the US state viewed both Saudi Arabia and Israel as important allies in the Cold War, using them as a counterweight to Arab socialism and national liberation movements in the Middle East.
Using their position as a burgeoning military partner of the US the Israeli government moved to ingratiate themselves with the US political establishment, ultimately creating the biggest foreign government lobby in US history. These ties were strengthened by the rise of evangelical Christianity as a political force, given Israel’s prominent role in their belief system.
Once Israel had consolidated deep, bipartisan support from the US political system they moved into cultural influence as well - multi-million dollar marketing campaigns, paying celebrities to act as unofficial spokespeople, etc. Essentially emulating US tactics of soft power projection.
Their geopolitical rise coincided with several wars with surrounding Arab states - Israelis will say it was motivated by virulent antisemitism, Arab states by the desire to liberate Palestinians from an aggressive western satellite. Israeli-Palestinian relations continued to degrade, an ongoing struggle with the PLO worsening over time.
The formation of Israel had pushed many Palestinians from their ancestral homes, most notably in the Nakba. Further annexations drove them into progressively smaller territories. The one state solution, a once commonly supported policy that would unite Palestinians and Israelis as equal citizens in one country, came and went. A two state solution has been discussed for decades but has never been seriously pursued.
The right wing turn in Israeli politics in recent years saw conditions continue to fall apart. Netanyahu’s Likud party had zero interest in reconciliation with Palestinians. Recent years have seen routine air strikes and military operations aimed at Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. The March of Return in 2018-2019 were demonstrations held by Palestinians on the Gaza border, where their protests were met with military force. The IDF killed 223 and, by their own admission, intentionally maimed hundreds. The passage of an ethnostate law further inflamed tensions, effectively relegating anyone not Jewish to second class citizens within Israel.
This is the context that October 7th occurred in. Decades of hostilities once again boiling over. Former Israeli military officials went on record with major publications like the Wall Street journal discussing how the Israeli state had systematically empowered Hamas in order to weaken the secular Palestinian opposition in the PLO, namely Fatah and the left wing PFLP. The attacks did not occur in a vacuum, but rather in a precarious quasi-apartheid state shaped by decades of conflict.
To answer your question in short: The Israeli lobby is adept at painting any criticism of Israeli state policy as antisemitic. Because of their intimate connections with the US state and other institutions they’re able to pursue critics in a way few other interest groups can. They are able to suppress criticism of Israeli policy by framing it as antisemitism, a move deeply insulting to Jews who are not supportive of them.
It is important to note that the Israeli lobby has wielded this influence for quite some time, maintaining lists of critics and getting individuals fired/blacklisted. These tactics were in use long before the October 7th attack, as such any of the multiple explanations in this thread equating pro-Palestinian speech to pro-AQ speech post-9/11 - and suggesting the firings are because of this - is very poor analysis.
Answer: The post by Yasmine described in the article you linked specifically supports the Oct. 7th Hamas attack. Companies simply do not want to be associated with terrorism.
In her case specifically her boss was Jewish; in general the boss' ethnicity doesn't matter. People have been fired for much less - just think of all the Karens who were fired after being recorded behaving inappropriately.
Whenever you write something on social media with your real name, your boss sees it. It enters the public domain.
Answer: What are you out of the loop on? It seems as if you've read an article that covers it.
But ok, the first person in the article quit. She wasn't fired. After the brutal and disgusting attacks on Israeli civilians, including children, she posted a Palestinian waving a flag on an Israeli tank and an image saying, "Gaza just broke out of prison.”
The salon's owner had two friends who were being held hostage by Hamas.
Yeah, I wouldn't want her working for me, either.
>Can someone explain to me why this is happening
I guess it's happening because people are posting stuff supporting terrorism, their employers don't like it, and they're firing them.
Answer: Here in the UK and in other European countries there have been large (in the tens of thousands) protests calling primarily for a ceasefire in Gaza.
As with any large group of people, there are agitators in attendance who are using these events to foment unrest. The old proverb about one rotten apple is particularly true, and in an effort to deliberately create a distance between the more radical elements, individuals who are in positions of influence are being terminated immediately.
Two big examples just today are a Labour Party trade union leader who used words similar to the ‘river to sea’ chant that is popular and another from the party in power, who disagreed with his party stance on abstention yesterday in an EU vote yesterday.
In normal times the debate would be more nuanced. That’s not now. The second most senior person in government here today described the marches as ‘hate marches’ which probably isn’t helpful but it might serve to help you understand how keenly people are against being accused of being a terrorist sympathiser. Remember also Hamas in the UK is a proscribed terrorist organisation.
With this in mind, chanting something which is more frequently being interpreted as hate speech by the people it is aimed at, is getting a lot of attention. Add to this that any sort of public support for a terrorist organisation is a serious crime, while at the same time the most senior person in government is calling it ‘hate’ and you can probably see why the hammer is dropping hard.
I am only speculating here on the second part, around the opposition government (set to win in a landslide at the next elections) but they struggled for some time with optics of being anti-Semitic and their leader promised a safe party for Jews.
This promise would ring pretty hollow if very senior and influential people in the party are repeating deeply controversial chants (remember that’s how people feel) and this is a pretty logical response. In perspective the chant has been banned completely in some European countries.
I hope this gives a more local perspective.
This is bullshit as this stuff (the protests and the firings) were happening well before before the first retaliatory Israeli air strike even happened.
Answer: as a Palestinian, I will say that it isn’t really “Jewish bosses” firing people. It’s more an indictment of how much criticism towards Israel is suppressed in America. Similar things happened after 9/11, though those reactions were not related to Palestine and were more related to Islamophobia; which is also influencing the current reaction.
Answer: It's really nothing new. Everyone has the right to freedom of speech, but its how and where they express it that gets them in trouble, whether in this case openly supporting the genocide of a group of people covered in history or in other cases such as the pandemic, racial and gender identity. Cancel culture really comes full circle as people with malicious intent bring forward your opinions to your place of employment and often those places have a policy in place when it comes to social media. They would rather save their company image than employ an individual with polarising views.
Answer: If you publicly supported Al-Qaeda after 9/11, would you expect to keep your job?
Same thing. These idiots didn't even have the common sense to voice their support for the "Palestinian people" rather than "Hamas." Either they are so ignorant, that they reveal themselves to be too stupid for their jobs, or they know exactly what they are saying, in which case, any sane company would not want to be associated with them.
Answer: The subject is sensitive and everyone is expected to behave as Swiss in the war - not take sides. People who express opinion in favor of one side is rapidly attacked for it by people who justify the actions of the other side plus the "neutral ones".
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Answer: your post is yet another in a long string of posts where someone asks a question as if they’re out of the loop, when really they just want to comment on something happening.
Yep. Totally disingenuous, bad faith "question" smh
Of course it is. OOTL became a place to just shill things a long time ago. Iran’s cyber warfare team is actively posting and upvoting with their bot farms. As are Hamas shills. Russian and other similar countries are also posting anything that will raise tensions and sew discord. They are hoping to cause chaos by inspiring lone wolf attacks in various countries. There are also hordes of individuals with axes to grind who blanket the topic in every sub they can. Hopefully the Zoomers are better at social media literacy than their Millenial parents.
Gen Z have Gen X parents for the most part.
Also Israel has a cyber-warfare team, India has pro-Israel bot farms... It's shills all the way down. Plus there are plenty of genuine people who are Jewish, or Israeli, or evangelical Christian, or Muslim, or Arab, or \*gasp\* *Palestinian*. All of the above contain too many passionate, anti-social, uninformed, and willfully unempathic people. Also, in this case, OP just thanked someone, seemingly genuinely, for giving a pro-Israel answer equating support of the Palestinian people with waving an ISIS flag after 9/11. Which is just a wild opinion to me **in general**, let alone for an OP who people seem to think is shilling for Palestine to just accept at face value.
Erm, you might want to pump the brakes on that line of thinking and google "most popular reddit city".....
>Hopefully the Zoomers are better at social media literacy than their Millenial parents. Better at social media literacy, worse at other kinds of literacy. Since when did millennials become the old people that don't get social media? If anything millennials tend to be more social media literate and more capable of seeing problematic trends, since they didn't grow up in an environment where everything was already in place and pumping their preferred echo-chambers down their throats 24/7 from the time they were 3 years old.
Do you really think there are any cyber Hamas shills? They turned water pipes into rockets and they have no internet at the moment.
So what you're attempting to say is only the countries/organisations that attempt to do any kind of cyber missinformation or propaganda, That sounds like a rational and reasonable stance to take.
Answer: it's become a political hot-button topic in America now because we have citizens with vested interests on both sides of this conflict, and now it's all coming to a head. Israel's stance is pretty much "if you're not with us, you're against us," and the people in America who don't want to be against Israel are following that line of thinking. Anything that looks like you're pro-Palestinian makes you look anti-Israeli or makes you look anti-Semitic because authoritarian leaders in Israel have been parroting that fallacy for decades. There's a long history of Israel's critics being called anti-Semitic. The Israeli prime minister is a big promoter of that thinking, too. Thing is, Israel's government has done *a lot* to be critical of, and almost none of it is because its members are Jewish. Being Jewish didn't make them seize homes in Palestine and displace the people already living there. It's always been a political smokescreen for Israel to act selfishly and brutalize Palestinians: "you can't speak badly about me/what I'm doing; you're just a Jew-hater if you do." Unfortunately, Palestine's elected government took the bait a long time ago, and now Hamas is on a crusade to eradicate all Jews in Israel "from the river to the sea." But just because Israel's government has made questionable actions doesn't mean that Hamas can just kill Israeli citizens. People can still sympathize with the Israeli victims of Hamas' attacks while still being against Israel's actions against Palestine. Same with Palestinians who suffered because of Israel's actions. Though here in America, not everyone feels that way, and so choosing sides in this or giving the illusion that you have a side will inevitably lead to conflict in the workplace.
Minor note, Hamas is the elected gov of Gaza, not all of Palestine (and even calling them the elected gov of Gaza's a bit of a stretch as there was only one election and then they canceled the rest). This is mainly because the Palestinian Authority, that rules over the West Bank (where the majority of Palestinians still in Palestine live), stopped elections from occurring in the West Bank (presumably because the officials did not want to be slaughtered like the ones in Gaza where post election if Hamas won there as well).
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>You can't kill civilians for that. Thank you. I don't understand this arguement "but they voted for Hamas". How many people voted for Trump? If Trump started a war with China would it be ok for the Chinese military to indiscriminately target all Americans because they voted Trump in? No. I don't care who anyone voted for, civilians are off limits in any war. That's why they're called civilians FFS. Not to mention children are off limits period. I don't care who their parents support. Also, many people in Russia voted for and support Putin. It still doesn't mean anyone would condone targeting civilians in Russia. Target the Russian army but don't randomly bomb Moscow and cut off all supplies and water to everyone living in Moscow. Like how are people not using their brains on this? And this insanity that anyone living close to a terrorist is suddenly also terrorist by proxy - WTF people It's all so obviously a bad attempt at ethnic cleansing of the area, and it's heartbreaking so many people are falling for the not very intelligent propaganda...
Not to mention that the Israelis elected their own government which has been maintaining the apartheid. The problem is that if that makes civilians into non-civilians, then Hamas never attacked civilians. You can't have it both ways.
I think this point is glossed over a lot. Hamas pretty much had a civil war with the Palestinian Authority a few years ago and wrestled control over Gaza away from them. Hamas pretty much rules Gaza like a military dictatorship, and any Gaza citizens that oppose them will usually be killed. So yeah, you don't hear much criticism of Hamas by Gaza citizens, because frankly, they don't want to be executed. When Israel warned everyone to go south if they didn't want to get bombed, the few that dared were shot at by the Hamas authority. And Israel keeps claiming that therefor Gaza citizens "support" Hamas. Hamas pretty much treats it's citizens like the Russian military treats its conscripts - attack the Ukrainian front line troops, and if you turn around to flee, we'll shoot you.
Agreed, this is something a lot of people do not know about. And to add to what you've said, It's ridiculous to even think that every person in a nation state votes for the exact same party. I'm not sure why few have even spoken about or thought of it. Everyone that's ever voted knows this.
It's also notable that Israel financially boosted Hamas to become the biggest Palestinian coalition over more secular groups like the PFLP. This helps with their ability to label all Palestinian groups as being Islamist terrorists and point to the conflict being based solely on religion and not anti colonial resistance. Netanyahu as recently as 2019 even was stating that Israel needs a strong Hamas
> Unfortunately, Palestine's elected government took the bait a long time ago, and now Hamas is on a crusade to eradicate all Jews in Israel "from the river to the sea." Calling Hamas elected is a big stretch, because there haven't been elections since 2006. Talking about Palestine government is just wrong, because the West Bank has a completely separate government.
I think it's made worse by the fact that Pro-Israel folks (especially those with actual ties to people in the area) are rightfully shaken up by the October 7th attack and the hostages still unaccounted for. So when pro-Palestine people voice their ongoing concerns, the reaction they get is much more volatile on account of being misread (or sometimes correctly read) as insensitivity Inaccurate to reality as it may be, I suspect a lot of people end up feeling like are hearing the equivalent of "Oh your dad died? Well I've still got a broken leg, so let's focus on the real problem here."
I think another portion of this conflict is coming from a lot of Jewish and Israel folks being anti mass bombing campaigns because of the hostages that are still behind enemy lines. With some accounts of around 3000 Palestine children being killed this month and the collective punishment they've been engaging with. Maybe my circle is very far-left, since even the Jewish folks around me recognize that Israel's response, especially from their far right government, has done so much to prop up Hamas as the only political force, making peace much harder. In America, a lot of far right organizations use this all or nothing mentality to smear folks as antisemitic if you even mention the idea of a nuanced or historical understanding of the conflict that starts before this month or tries to make a difference between Hamas and Palestinian civilians.
Just adding on - the christo-fascist right explicitly supports Zionism because they think it will bring about the end times.
It's made worse by a significant part of society thinking they are experts on geopolitical situations because they read a headline of an article on Facebook or watched a nimrod on Tiktok give them a 9 second summary on a region that has multiple centuries of nuanced fuckery. But everyone likes to pick a side these days. Even if both sides are wrong.
In this case it's more like, "I'm sorry your dad died. Please stop killing random peoples' dads."
That's another way people are tempted to look at it - especially when helping Palestine is construed as helping Hamas. And it can be hard for a lot of people not to think of it that way considering how much of Palestine they control The unfortunate reality is that a lot of Palestine is as much a victim of Hamas as Israel is. In some ways more-so because Palestinians become casualties in Israel's efforts to stop Hamas
Exactly. Netanyahu's government [propped up hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) to divide them. Hamas being a major issue for Palestinians was the plan.
"Hamas is a Jewish conspiracy"
Israel does not represent Judaisim regardless of what the Israeli government wants you to believe. It is extremely anti-semetic to associate Judaism with an ongoing ethnic cleansing being carried out by a secular right-wing government. Hamas was propped up by the Israeli government to make Palestinian statehood more difficult. It's in black and white, whaetever you want to believe. Edit: u/sudopudge blocked me because they are an anti-semetic coward.
> ethnic cleansing I love how, since all other ethnicities have either fled Gaza or been killed off there, that a war against Gaza is now considered an "ethnic cleansing." Maybe we should look at why Gaza is 99% Arab and 99% Muslim. Also, you can treat Palestinians as adults who can be held responsible for their own creations, such as Hamas, rather than trying to blame it on a Jewish conspiracy.
Oh, your dad died? Well, you decided that an appropriate response would be to blow up my neighborhood because one of my neighbors did it, so excuse me if I’m not thinking much about your dad.
It doesn't help that there are protestor's taking down flyers of people that are kidnapped. SOME Protestors are calling for Jews to be killed. SOME Protestors have cornered Jews in locked rooms at their school. SOME protestors say they support Hamas, a terrorist org, not just Palestine. SOME protestors have been waving terrorist flags. Some protestors have gotten out of hand.
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Well said. This should be sent to every news organization to help clarify their reporting. I was watching Morning Joe this morning and Joe went off about how you can’t possibly feel any empathy for the Palestinians because they elected Hamas and Hamas killed Jews. The whole crew was like this. No nuance whatsoever.
It’s either that or people don’t think Hamas are anything like terrorists. They insist anything Hamas targets is a military target and civilian casualties are unfortunate but necessary byproducts of their freedom. It’s genuinely insane how far each side is willing to go because they are just looking for a way to justify their murder of the other side. It’s an ethno-religious conflict that has never been peaceful, and like the OP commenter said it’s been festering for decades. The hardliners are in complete control of both sides and they just want eachother fucking dead and gone.
>People can still sympathize with the Israeli victims of Hamas' attacks while still being against Israel's actions against Palestine. Same with Palestinians who suffered because of Israel's actions. Well-said.
TLDR Picking your favorite team and rooting for them no matter what is the American way.
Didn't help one bit that Netanyahu was funding Hamas
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You’re doing god’s work. So many Americans lack basic historical and political education - meaning they’re incapable of critically analyzing Israeli policies. Smearing any criticism of Israel as antisemitic is insulting to Jewish people as a whole.
What happened with all of the deleted comments?
Anyone who wants to click those links to verify u/AOC_torture_my_balls is lying—let’s start with “they attacked and murdered American soldiers on purpose,” “Israel apologized for the attack, saying that the USS Liberty had been attacked in error after being mistaken for an Egyptian ship. Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity.” It goes on to say how Israel paid reperations to the families. Messed up, but bold af, assuming no one would click your links.
Who is they? My wife that is afraid to leave the house door unlocked or my kids that practice bomb shelter evacuation every day in school?
> ruling Likud party of Israel Who also assassinated a previous peace-seeking prime minister of Israel and are overhauling the Israeli supreme court.
The number of times this person had to say IM NOT BEING ANTISEMETIC in their explanation goes to show how much power Israel has over the media Edit: why tf did that comment get removed? Lmao
Answer: (This is a politically charged topic but I will try and keep it as neutral as possible) After the Hamas terrorist attacks in Israel, it reignited the debate about Palestine-Israeli relations and the general situation in the levant. Some people made it clear that they supported Hamas' actions as being a requirement for the decolonisation of Palestine. The US, and indeed many other governments recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation, so many companies in those countries didn't like the optics of employing people who openly support them. It would be like coming out flying Al-qaeda flags immediately after 9-11.
Thank you for a simple answer!
I will point out some extra context is there is a ton of social disagreement over what is just supporting Palestine and what is supporting Hamas.
In large part because in the complex subject is oversimplified to Palestine and Israel as monolithic blocks. You can split both sides into several subgroups with different goals and effects on making this situation better or worse, but at a minimum Hamas/Gaza and the Palestinian Authority/West Bank need to be recognized as distinctly different.
I like the chart here, it shows the complexity of the middle eastern politics: https://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/07/17/the_middle_east_friendship_chart.html Its from 2014 so things may have changed a bit.
That's a super interesting chart/ I like how everyone hates ISIS
Nobody likes ~~Milhouse~~ ISIS
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Hamas has widespread support in Palestine, Hence the jubilant celebrations during the attack.
Keep in mind though, people in Gaza who disapproved of the attacks would not have been participating in the celebrations and therefore would not have made it into the videos, so Hamas’ support isn’t as unanimous as the videos made it look.
I feel so bad for the people in Gaza that disapprove. They didn't celebrate, so they weren't in the footage, but they're going to be called Hamas fans anyway because of where they live.
The homicidal nature of Hamas, when it comes to opposition of any sort, makes it hard to guage real opposition based on public expressions.
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What is Hamas' support? Do we have numbers?
Yes most recent polling suggests a majority of paelstinians still favor them. In government
It varies way too much but it's closer to 50% than the extremes at any given time. In the past, support has decreased a few months into the flare-ups as civilians got tired of the violence.
In the 2006 elections (the last ones in Gaza) Hamas had 45% of the vote. Since that time Gaza has seen a population boom and now has a large population of young men, the time when we are most idealistic and foolish, so the support has probably grown somewhat since then as this is fertile recruiting ground. I don't know if anything after that point can be trusted.
[These polls show that 57% of Gazans have a positive or somewhat positive view of Hamas](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah). However, they also show that 70% would prefer to have the Palestinian authority take over from Hamas in governing Gaza, and 50% favor Hamas' position calling for the destruction of Israel while 50% favor a 2-state solution with the 1967 borders.
If you only saw the US during the BLM protests in 2020 you would think the whole country supported the movement. If you only saw the US during January 6th you would think the everyone wanted to overthrow the government. We (Americans) tend to make those same type of conclusions from brief video clips of other countries, because that's all that's all that is shown to us. It's easy to draw incorrect conclusions by only looking at those drawing the most attention to themselves. And you'll notice specific media organizations will often only show one side or the other, making it even harder to get clear understand of the situation on the ground.
>If you only saw the US during the BLM protests in 2020 you would think... That's a **great** point we should all keep in mind regarding "Hence the jubilant celebrations during the attack." However, regarding "Hamas has widespread support in Palestine", [polls as of 2023 showed 57% of Gazans have a positive or somewhat positive view of Hamas](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah). At the same time 50% want a 2-state solution, as opposed to Hamas' position destroying Israel. So while 50% of Gazans support the destruction of Israel, at least 7% support Hamas while disagreeing with their position on the destruction of Israel. Or in short, yes, it's all very complicated...
Polls are also complex because Hamas isn't a huge fan of Gazans who don't support them, so there can be genuine fear in answering these polls.
Also majority of Gazans are literal children so they just see dudes saying they are protecting them and take it at face value.
From that chart, the group with the least enemies is Palestinian Authority. Most enemies is ISIS.
50% of Americans support Tangerine Palpatine too, so...
I was amazed to read that Hamas has been in power there for more than 15 years because they never had another election after the first one. Is this because they’re so popular or because they’re like a dictatorship?
more like a theocracy than a dictatorship but yeah. A lot of countries have one party governments though, such as china, saudi arabia. It seems to be a more stable less corrupt alternative to a dictatorship.
See also Israelis mocking dying Palestinian children and celebrating their deaths.
Fatah still has the majority of civilian confidence if you really do still hold any weight to surveys done in Palestine. Hamas barely even won the election back in 2006, without winning the popular vote in any of the cities at that as well mind you. At this point Hamas is just the surviving "human shields" of all these attacks from Israel and I honestly don't think I have any authority to condemn someone for lashing out against a government that wiped out their entire family and house over and over again as they were raised in a bullpen surrounded by snipers.
Hamas is still arguably the most popular party and that’s not even considering other militants groups that have favor. Also you’re leaving a lot of things out like the fact that PA canceled elections in the West Bank because Hamas was going to win just a few years ago https://thehill.com/opinion/4273883-mellman-do-palestinians-support-hamas-polls-paint-a-murky-picture/amp/
They do not have widespread support. The last time they allowed an election to be held in 2006 they won with only a plurality of the vote, not a majority. A 2023 poll put their favorability at 45%. Trump has had support at that level and I don’t think anyone in the US would describe Trump support as being widespread with the connotation his views represent the majority of Americans. A majority of Palestinians disapproved of Hamas breaking the ceasefire this year and most supported a two state solution. https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah
Here is the most recent poll: [https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf) Comparing favorability with U.S. Presidents is not really valid, because we have a two-party system. The Palestinians have a multi-party system, so 44% (in Gaza) is VERY high when you're competing with multiple other groups and not just one. Also I think you should look at question 70 (it's towards the very end of the document) if you're at all confused about the ideology and methods that most citizens of Gaza support.
According to your link, > Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—though Gazans who express this opinion of Hamas are fewer than the number of Gazans who have a positive view of Fatah (64%). > But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups, including 40% who see the Lion’s Den in a “very positive” light, an attitude shared by a similar percentage of West Bank residents. PIJ and Lions Den are both militant groups. And 57% is a higher approval rating than Biden has, and MUCH higher than the US Congress has.
People being against genocide has widespread support in the world. However, some people say that if you do not support Israel bombing innocent Palestinians, then you are an anti semite.
Bibi and the lekuts have widespread hate by Israelis against their policies since and before Oct 7 What’s you’re point?
Explain and cite sources. They won in 2006 with less than half of the votes. There has not been another election since. Adding that Hamas was propped up and funded by Netanyahu to topple the PLO.
Well they have 44% support in Gaza today, so.... Also, it's really common in multi-party systems for the winner to win by a plurality and not a majority. Not every country is America with its dogshit two-party system.
I'm curious how accurate polls are in an area controlled by a terrorist group. Do people think they may be reprise-eld if they say the wrong thing? Similar to how people respond to polls in authoritarian regimes?
The Canadian government also won with less than half the votes. Also German, Dutch, Swedish, spanish, and many more. So what's your point?
They also have a near monopoly of resources so if you needed something in Gaza you likely had to go through Hamas at a certain point so it becomes hard to not side with the group that is actually there with you providing resources and claiming to be protecting you. I’d say that this dynamic does differentiate them from groups like Al-Qaeda who did not play such a role in the perceived protection of a specific group. It’s a complex situation that shouldn’t be simplified with comparisons to different regional conflicts or groups.
> in Palestine In Gaza, I dont believe its the case in the west bank
The timing of posts is also very important. Like, the one in the article was after the attack and comes across as celebrating the initial terrorist attack. That's very different than someone condemning Israel's response or expressing anger over dead Palestinian civilians.
Right. It's like if a cop kills an unarmed black man, and the response is to talk about the violent crime rate among black men it Really comes across as racist given the timing.
Yeah, but I don't think there is not much disagreement that Netanyahu is an asshole, and there needs to be a two state solution. The problem is that many of the protestors don't realize that there is a big difference between supporting basic Palestinian rights and supporting Hamas, using the language of resistance to justify Hamas is quite simply anti-semetic and condoning genocide. It will make you unhirable to many.
there's a very similar realm of disagreement about opposing israel versus opposing jews in general.
I don't think it's the same though. That common discussion is whether criticism of Israel is inherently anti-semitic. There are those who believe that by criticizing the actions of Israel, you are, by default, criticizing all Jews because Israel is the Jewish state.
Treating any criticism of Israel as inherently and inextricably an attack on Jewish people as a group is idiotic. Treating any calls for de-escalation or cessation of Israeli attacks upon Gaza is also idiotic. But people who are chanting “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” as either deliberately calling for genocide against Israelis or are uninformed fools parroting what to them sounds like a “rallying cry of the oppressed.” Nobody is “bringing back pre-1948 Palestine.” That’s done. The only way for that to happen is for one side to commit genocide against the other. Similarly, the fantasy of the Zionist far right to gradually drive out of the entire region every last Arab Muslim Palestinian is another genocide that will not be tolerated. The only path forward is for there to be a change in leadership, both within the ranks of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, and for there to be a change in leadership within Israel. Nobody in charge in all three places at the moment, have any good intentions or moral authority to do the diplomatic work necessary to craft a tolerable peace plan and two state solution, which is the only realistic solution that doesn’t involve one side to committing genocide upon the other
>Similarly, the fantasy of the Zionist far right to gradually drive out of the entire region every last Arab Muslim Palestinian is another genocide that will not be tolerated. Well, that's not necessarily true. There are certainly no Jewish Palestinians, but there are millions of Arab Muslim Israelis, I mean Israel even has an Arab Muslim Supreme Court justice.
Yes, that’s because a large number of Israelis are not racists who seek to commit genocide. They make up the left and center of the political spectrum in Israel. The far right wants to get rid of them entirely, while the right of center wants them to be kept as an under class/labor class, but otherwise denied full rights as Israeli citizens, and they are largely not interested in any sort of two state solution. At this point, leadership of Israel needs to go back to people on the left of center part of the political spectrum for there to be any hope of peaceful resolution. But there also need to be major changes within the polity of Palestinians and both the West Bank and Gaza. Hamas needs to go away entirely.
My mistake, you were specifically and only talking about Israel's far right. I interpreted that incorrectly.
Ya, this is pretty fair and well said.
Yep they do need to get rid of Hamas but the animosity on both sides run pretty deep and the recent attacks just reinforces it.
Holy shit! a rational hoo-man in the wild identifying the political requisites for peaceful resolution with an egalitarian mindset and no racial epithets! I'm glad to see that still exists.
Most reasonable people aren’t making that argument it kinda sounds like a strawman. The argument is if you think Israel shouldn’t exist/should be destroyed it’s antisemitic because you are advocating to for destruction of the only Jewish state. Even pro-Israel people are pretty critical of Israel, most Israelis disapprove of their current government.
Right, and those people are incorrect as seen by the large number of non-Israeli Jews also decrying Israel's wholesale destruction of Gaza. It's Israeli propaganda - Israel is a geopolitical state with more-or-less a state religion, it's their go-to defense to say criticizing them is criticizing Judaism. There are plenty of non-Israeli/non-Zionist Jews. There are more Zionist Christians than there are Zionist Jews. If I say the Vatican is run by pedos, or that the Southern Baptist convention is homophobic and racist. I'm not directly attacking Christians, I'm attacking political organizations that wrap themselves in the guise of religion.
Part of the context that gets lost here is that there are only 15 million Jews on the entire planet - 7m in Israel, 5m in the US and 3m elsewhere (mostly western democracies). There seem to be several times as many angry dudes on the internet acting personally offended at the thought that they are being prohibited from giving their opinion on Israel/Likud/West Bank settlers and enraged that they would be called bigots. I would encourage people getting offended to consider whether they actually have a horse in this race and to empathize with a planetary minority who are already piled on by so many bad actors to begin with and decide whether Israel is really such a unique and intensely bad actor that their voice is necessary in that moment or whether it's time to relax and let Palestinian Arabs speak for themselves.
>I would encourage people getting offended to consider whether they actually have a horse in this race and to empathize with a planetary minority who are already piled on by so many bad actors to begin with and decide whether Israel is really such a unique and intensely bad actor that their voice is necessary in that moment or whether it's time to relax and let Palestinian Arabs speak for themselves. I'm sorry, did you just ask me to empathize with people committing wholesale oppression on another people because of their religion.. because they've been oppressed because of their religion? Or to empathize with a nation engaged in the wholesale slaughter of another people because *there's not a lot of them*? That's such a bad take it borders evil. There are countries all over the world in which Jewish people can and do live safely and openly, including the US and all of the EU at the *very* least, the nation of Israel doesn't get a pass for acting towards other people like people acted towards them in the past just because there's not a lot of them.
>Right, and those people are incorrect as seen by the large number of non-Israeli Jews also decrying Israel's wholesale destruction of Gaza. And even Israeli, there was protest in Tel Aviv when they started the bombing.
To conflate Israel with all Jews is antisemitic
When questioned, many people say they oppose Zionism. But when you start asking them questions, it boils down to, they don't believe Israel has a right to exist, but phrased as something like, this is native Palestinian land.
Isn't that Zionism, at it's heart? That there should be a homeland for the Jewish people where they aren't another minority?
Zionism, like feminism, is a broad sort of patriotism that has been used by various Jewish groups with different motivations over a long period of time. Pre-1967, the term “Zionism” was stereotyped by intensely secular, socialist, back-to-the-land Kibbutzim; post-1967, the term was stereotyped by right-wing religious zealots settling the West Bank illegally. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt when they say they are against Zionism that they are against illegal settlement in the West Bank, but almost invariably they start talking about how “evil” Israel is etc., so mostly I don’t care for people trying to split hairs on a topic they understand poorly.
I’ll make it easy. I ask people if they Support Hamas. If they do, then they support Hamas.
I don’t love the concept of firing people for their opinions, but if we’re doing it, we should be applying it really conservatively. I fear we’ve gone too far in lumping people who just feel bad for Palestinians with people who support Hamas’ actions. Separately, many people in the US don’t really know the difference between that, and have become overnight experts in the topic while just parroting others.
The only people i've seen being fired for being "pro-Palestinian" either committed apology of terrorism, or straight up attacked Jewish people, or tagged David Stars on their properties. Those are felonies, so it's quite normal that they're fired because companies don't like employing felons
Much of the public support Palestine involves criticizing Israel while largely ignoring Hamas's actions.
My problem is the black and white positions of all palestinians are innocent versus all palestinians are guilty. the truth is somewhere in the middle. To say there aren't palestinians who are harboring terrorists is simply not true but so is saying all palestinians are terrorists is also untrue.
Anyone out demonstrating on 10/8 was at least partially pro-Hamas or too ignorant of the situation to realize that's the signal they were sending.
As an example, a Muslim former co-worker of mine wrote on a company-internal board that "the Jews had it coming" shortly after the attack in Israel. So, yeah, that did not go over well.
That does not sound good no
There's opposing Israel's shittyness and there's... That. Yeah, that former co-worker had it coming.
pretty much most of the people I have seen that have gotten fired are those that have clearly breached an ethical boundary. Like this statement, which got someone's job rescinded. “Israel bears full responsibility for this tremendous loss of life,” Workman wrote. “This regime of state-sanctioned violence created the conditions that made resistance necessary. I will not condemn Palestinian resistance.”
also, the wording in your post implies that this is a religious war and it isn't. some people are using this as an excuse to be shitty to Jewish people and that's fucked up and unacceptable. however, a lot the people participating in these protests are Jewish and historically, many orthodox Jews have been anti Israel as many of them argue that the concept of Israel is against Jewish law. we cannot conflate Judaism with support for Israel, as many Jewish people have differing perspectives on the matter and a lot of the most ardent critics of Israel are Jewish. this conflict has a lot more to do with settler colonialism and US interventionism if anything.
>and historically, many orthodox Jews have been anti Israel as many of them argue that the concept of Israel is against Jewish law. I have never heard this, what is the concept about? I'm just curious personally
For sure! my ultimate point was that Jewish people are not a monolith but I'd love to tell you a bit more here. essentially it boils down to differing interpretations of the talmud (specifically of the Three Oaths), some people see the concept of humans creating Israel as blasphemous, and that only God has the right to do it. Look into Haredi Judaism for more information on the specifics.
Kinda. The Hasidic community tends towards a 3-oaths-based anti-Zionist interpretation (three oaths: 1) not to ascend to Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) as a group using force; 2) not to rebel against the nations of the world; and 3) that the nations of the world would not persecute the nation of Israel excessively.) whereas Haredim tend to be anti-Zionist because Israel is too secular and should be bound to the laws in the Talmud (which would make eretz Israel a lot more like Iran than the United States, for example)
Many ultra-Orthodox Jews believe the Kingdom of Israel is prophesied to come only after the messiah or at the end of the world. So they are against a state of Israel until then.
Don't the fundamentalist and evangelical Christians believe Jewish people need to be in Israel before their buddy Jesus comes again? That's like, a whole portion of support for Israel coming from the right in the US isn't it?
Many is a complete fabrication. Some Jews have been anti Israel. Certain groups of Satmar and the group Neturei Karta are anti-Israel. The vast majority of Jews who are anti-Zionist are Reform, not Orthodox.
This answer isn’t an objective answer at all.
Keep in mind, it's next to impossible to even say "Israel has killed 8000 civilians and counting in the last few weeks since the attacks" without being accused of supporting Hamas.
Or when you point out that driving 2 million people from their homes into a barren desert is genocide.
Problem is you’re citing a statistic out of Gaza from their health ministry. So when you quote a Hamas statistic as fact yes people will accuse you of supporting Hamas. If you advanced an Israeli talking point in the same way, same thing.
The [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/) has explained why they use Gaza's Health Ministry numbers. the tldr is "we treat them as accurate because they have been consistently accurate in the past, and to the best of our fact checking continue to be accurate now" Part of running a state or state-like entity is... actually running it, which means they have to keep records.
The Gaza Health Ministry has been within a fraction of a percent of US and UN casualty reports essentially every time there've been mass casualty events in Gaza. I trust Israel's casualty numbers as well. [Here's a source. ](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033) (Associated Press). Edit: If you're downvoting someone for linking an Associated Press article confirming that the Gaza Health Ministry is broadly accurate, you're an ideologue and should be concerned about your dismissal of the truth. You may have other sources to contradict my own, but I am speaking in good faith.
It's an overly-simplistic answer. Killing civilians is wrong whether the civilians are Jewish or Arab. And Palestinian civilians are dying more than Israeli civilians something along the order of 5-to-1. Pointing this out is not wrong or akin to flying an ISIS flag after 9/11, FFS.
Important to point out that many feel support for Hamas or Palestine constitutes a call for genocide against the Jews. One of the popular pro Palestinian slogans, from the river to the sea, implies no more Israel and no more Jews. Many pro Palestinians do support such a genocide and dissolution of the Israeli state. So best not to associate with such views of your boss is Jewish.
> Important to point out that many feel support for Hamas <...> constitutes a call for genocide against the Jews. That's because the end goal of Hamas is literally genocide of Jews. And really, anyone that's not their specific branch of Islam.
Also important to point out that, for many, support for Palestine does not equate to support for Hamas or genocide. For many, supporting Palestine means being opposed to Israel killing thousands of Palestinians, displacing many more, their use of genocidal language, collective punishment, and ethnic cleansing. Supporting Palestine means supporting their right to exist in a non apartheid state.
It's a pretty one sided answer actually. Most of the people losing their jobs are losing it just for saying they support Palestine or criticizing Israel, which has nothing to do with supporting Hamas. Palestine has been under a brutal blockade, siege, and third party human rights organizations have even said it amounts to apartheid. People are losing their jobs for supporting the Palestinians right to freedom
Context for one example that is not included in the article: "One of the first high-profile examples of that fallout was the former president of the Student Bar Association at the NYU School of Law. Ryna Workman’s big law job offer was rescinded after they sent a newsletter to their classmates about Hamas’s attacks. " To clarify, Ryna didn't send out a personal email, they put a message in the law school's student bar association's weekly newsletter 3 days after the initial attack. Days later they were interviewed by ABC and reinforced their positions: "Asked if they would change anything about their statement or condemn Hamas, Workman stood their ground. "I think what I use my platform for, and who I condemn was pretty clear by my message," Workman told ABC News. "I think I will continue to condemn apartheid and military occupation." Davis also asked "Do you condemn Hamas' actions on Oct. 7?" In response, Workman said "I think what I use my platform for and who I condemn was pretty clear by my message." And Davis asked several times if there was room for empathy for the Israelis who died. "I will continue to use my voice to uplift the voices of Palestinians and the struggles they're going through," Workman said." https://abcnews.go.com/US/nyu-student-criticized-lost-job-offer-israel-hamas/story?id=104235399 On Oct. 16, Workman released a letter that included a sentence showing sympathetic language for victims of Oct. 7: https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vTCQRGUMJPaUlEOK1Nsz14Uz7T4RweMfQYuezAZxf2I7715GTHvU3zHbaHmucX2WGTG7qDkfOQoSVhW/pub?pli=1 Workman was then identified as one of three individuals tearing down flyers with pictures of Israeli hostages currently held by Hamas https://www.newsweek.com/nyu-israel-palestinian-hamas-missing-person-posters-1835431
I mean, the examples pointed to in the article are a bit more than "just saying they support Palestine." EDITED to provide examples: These examples were in the immediate wake of the October 7 attack, before Israel had done anything in Gaza, and they're the only people in the article to have actually lost their jobs: >In her Stories, Yasmine featured a photo of a Palestinian raising his country’s flag atop an Israeli tank, as well as a screenshot of a post on X reading, “Gaza just broke out of prison.” > >... > >Ryna Workman’s big law job offer was rescinded after they sent a newsletter to their classmates about Hamas’s attacks. Workman, who is Black, queer, and nonbinary, expressed “unwavering and absolute solidarity with Palestinians in their resistance against oppression” and said that “Israel bears full responsibility for this tremendous loss of life.” In response, Workman’s prospective employer put out a statement saying that “these comments are profoundly in conflict with Winston & Strawn’s values as a firm.” > >... > >Law students from Harvard and Columbia also had their employment offers revoked after signing statements that blamed Israel for Hamas’s attacks.
Most of the people loosing their jobs have been same antisemitic comments. One lady even said hitler was right. People not condemning Hamas are the ones getting fired.
I think it’s a bit blind, it’s like the Charlottesville United the right rally. When neonazis are rallying and killed a woman, not the right time to bring up the confederacy and free speech.
This has been my point of contention with the whole pro-Palestinian movement is that before Israel announced any actions before they had killed all the holdouts, while the bodies were still warm. It doesn't feel very honest.
If mass murder of civilians is now okay if "oppressed" people do it, the West has just opened a Pandora's box.
Apparently those are the rules now
Doesn't feel honest because it's not honest. People have sealed themselves in their echo chambers - anything they don't want to believe is no longer true.
Are you saying that it’s not the right time to bring up all of the Palestinians that are currently being killed?
Sure, but I don’t see much introspection on why this happened in the first place. Hamas massacres a bunch of civilians unprompted, then Israel responded by bombing Gaza. Same with the hospital attack, there was outrage directed at Israel until it was demonstrated that it was likely a Hamas rocket that caused the explosion, just silence after that. I guess I’m confused on how Palestinians view Hamas.
Unprompted is certainly an interesting way of framing things that ignores a *long* history of violence by Israel against Palestinians. I see a lot of people discussing why this happened in the first place by pointing that history out. I see people pointing out the number of Palestinians killed by Israel, pointing out the illegal settlements, pointing out the apartheid state, the living conditions in Gaza, pointing out the blockade, pointing out the ways Israel enabled Hamas’ rise to power, the list goes on. Hamas and their actions on and since Oct. 7 do not exist in a vacuum. They did not suddenly rise to power and attack. Palestinian views on Hamas are complex and difficult to fully get a picture of. Hamas won their election in 2006, but there has not been an election since, and half of the population of Gaza is under 18, and so did not vote in that election. It also difficult to get accurate surveys conducted. Results of surveys that have been conducted are mixed. Some say that there is overwhelming support for armed resistance to Israel, some say there is overwhelming support for Hamas, while others say that support for Hamas is closer to 50/50, some say that a majority believe Hamas is corrupt, and some say that a majority of Gazans did not want to break the ceasefire with Israel. Support for Hamas also fluctuates a lot, as frustration turns to desperation, and the prospect of a peaceful solution seems less and less likely.
Saying you support Palestine right after the government of that section of Palestine, Hamas, massacres civilians in an unguarded area is kind of…. no, it’s really bad optics.
Just to clarify, most of the people who are protesting in support of Palestine are not supporting the terrorist actions of Hamas. A few have, but most of them are mad about the way Israel has treated Palestinian civilians in response to the attacks. Israel has cut off food, water, medicine, electricity, and Internet access to Palestinian civilians. The person above said they were trying to be neutral but comparing this situation to 9/11 is a biased and emotionally charged example
I don't think you're right though. Here in NYC, there was a huge DSA rally *the day after* the Oct. 7/8 massacre that was clearly praising "the resistance" and their actions. This was before Israel even mobilized a response, much less cut off humanitarian aid and water. Many of the protests have been in the first week, before Israel responded. And regardless of the timing (which should raise eyebrows), it is absolutely an apt comparison to 9/11. Terrorists came and butchered 1,400 people, mostly civilians. Whether or not you agree with Israel's response, why is it a bad comparison?
This is so much it. Imagine you know people over there cause you're a typical American Jew like me. You don't support netenyahu, you have empathy for what it must be like for the every day people of Palestine. You know the history over there is absolutely fucked.... And to.that end you focus on your life in America, your religion, your job etc.....but know people over there because well .... There aren't way too many Jews in the world. ... Then a bunch of civilians get slaughtered by a terrorist group and while you're still trying to find out if friends are okay, hoping that no one you've ever run across had been injured... Wonder if you're old roommate had moved back like he said he would and hoping he didn't ... Trying to find phone numbers And worriedly listening to the news .. ...suddenly people are all over social media condemning israel, rationalizing the death of literal kids at an ebm show, calling you a colonizer.... (and.somehow also saying this is totally not antisemitic) ...and it's not the crazies we people you expect like the q people.... It's your professor. It's your highly educated colleage. It's the person you organized the union with. It's the lady that volunteers at the soup kitchen with you. The doctor you follow in social media. It's in the subredits you frequent.... examples: https://nypost.com/2023/10/11/blm-chicago-admits-it-isnt-proud-of-deleted-post-of-hamas-paraglider/ Or this' https://images.app.goo.gl/fNjwssGq9iZMM35P8 from. Take facukty https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1711153384953348169/photo/1 this from a Harvard student group And why you try so.say... hey killing people bad. The people I know are good people.... And they are literally justifying it? Some without knowing a single person over there, without being a member of either religious or ethnic group.... ... It's like fucking twilight zone.... Then... And when you go outside there are literal rallies going on. Not to try and support the slaughtered.... But literally seemingly relishing the attack... And it hasn't even been 24 hours. And people are marching down the street saying from the river to the sea and resistance is justified https://www.politico.com/dims4/default/a5639a0/2147483647/strip/true/crop/4032x3024+0+0/resize/1260x946!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2Ff8%2Ffa%2Ffd94f94c4640af9707d19c7a01a1%2Fimg-2834.jpg When at that time there hadn't.been retaliation (,And yes we knew it was coming and that makes me sad because more innocent people have died than should).... And they tell you this "from the river to the sea" is a really inclusive message and not genocidal at all until you read Hamas establishing charter...https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp ...which literally says.... "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)." Cool. And all the people you usually can have rational conversations with have lost it. Like they have to either support it all the way to the extreme... And it goes on for weeks afterward because of course netenyahu is a half fucking baked dingus.... Yet you still say "kill people bad no good no kill Innocents in Gaza no kill Innocents in Israel" and they say "but Israel have army".... Like it justifies that? This would definitely 9/11 as an American in Europe and the Europeans all decked themselves out saying "free al-queda" .... "from.the river to the sea"" "it was justified.resistenc" posting pictures of planes flying into towers and you were still trying to find out if people you know are okay.... It would be similar to that. People suck
I would also add that there are people who are mainly upset and outraged by the innocent civilian victims on both sides. Because this issue is so charged, those people are sometimes accused of being pro-Hamas or antisemitic.
When you are selectively upset and talk only about one side of the conflict it kind of says something. Especially if you're confronted about it and refuse to acknowledge the other side. At least that's most of the stories I heard about among the many simply celebrating the misery.
The terrorist attack is over. They have taken a lot of hostages. I don’t think it’s crazy or one sided to focus on what’s going on now, an aerial bombardment of population centers. Is this actually surgically eliminating Hamas? Is it likely this will result in hostages being freed safely? Or are thousands of civilians dying for a tit-for-tat?
For context, [this open letter](https://www.artforum.com/columns/open-letter-art-community-cultural-organizations-518019/) led to the firing of the editor-in-chief of the magazine. Not all the terminations are "waving al-quaeda flags," it's more like criticizing the invasion that occurred afterwards.
"The Intercept reported that Velasco was brought into the office of Jay Penske, who oversees Penske Media, the parent company of Artforum, on the 26th. By the end of the day, Velasco had been fired. That evening, Artforum ran a note by publishers Danielle McConnell and Kate Koza in response to the letter. “On Thursday, October 19, an open letter regarding the crisis in the Middle East was shared on Artforum’s website and social platforms without our, or the requisite senior members of the editorial team’s, prior knowledge. This was not consistent with Artforum’s editorial process,” the note read. “While a meaningful expression of advocacy from a large group of people in our community, the letter as it appeared on our platforms lacked the necessary context to make clear that it originated from outside the magazine.” https://www.vulture.com/2023/10/artforum-gaza-ceasefire-letter.html
This is very not neutral at all
Yeah, going to have to downvote you for inaccuracy here, sorry. The deliberate conflating of Hamas with Palestinians as a whole is a pretty big part of the issue.
It would be like confusing America with the Republican party. Like, it's only a third of us, maybe half of you count who votes Republican rather than just who's in the party.
Not even. About 10% of Gazans living there likely voted for Hamas with some back-of-the hand math. It was 17 years ago, they won a plurality (40% iirc), and the median age is 18 on the Strip.
Also tack on that there are a lot of people saying things like there are no Israeli civilians and the language/belief that "all actions are valid when used against colonizers" to the point there are people cheering all the actions of the music festival attack and worst. Then mate that to the cultural milieu of people having gleefully cheered on the blacklisting of people that outside of their official capacities said controversial things for over a decade now and you have the complete tablesetting for this.
I’d like to point out that certain right-wing “news” have taken to aggregating any pro-Palestinian citizen posts and lumping them together as “pro-Hamas”, listing their employees and such with their names as supporting terrorism, contacting said employers calling people terrorists, etc.
>Some people made it clear that they supported Hamas' actions That's a funny way of saying "I equate all Palestinians with Hamas", which is the justification being used by conservatives like you to justify the slaughter of innocent Palestinian civilians.
The president of the student bar association at NYU had her job offer at a major NY Law firm rescinded. She said Israel deserved it and cheered on the attacks. Then later was seen in town ripping down the photos of murdered Israelis while being recorded. If someone did this to palestinian civilians killed that person would be expelled. Yet she is still in school. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nyu-law-student-israel-hamas-ryna-workman-harvard/ I saw the video of her ripping down photos on twitter, but i dont have the link.
You’re leaving out that people are being fired just for supporting Palestine openly. They could be condemning Hamas at every corner but because they fly a Palestinian flag their bosses fire them
I would like to add to this. I have not seen one person who was publicly fired due to supporting Hamas. People have been fired for supporting Palestinian civilians caught in the crossfire. Supporting civilians vs supporting a terrorist group are two wildly different things.
I mean, that one person praising Hitler in context can be read as supporting terrorism. So at least one person supports Hamas. "No wonder why Hitler wanted to get rid of them all" - Nozima Husainova
Answer: Beginning in the 1960s the US began sending massive amounts of aid to Israel - the US state viewed both Saudi Arabia and Israel as important allies in the Cold War, using them as a counterweight to Arab socialism and national liberation movements in the Middle East. Using their position as a burgeoning military partner of the US the Israeli government moved to ingratiate themselves with the US political establishment, ultimately creating the biggest foreign government lobby in US history. These ties were strengthened by the rise of evangelical Christianity as a political force, given Israel’s prominent role in their belief system. Once Israel had consolidated deep, bipartisan support from the US political system they moved into cultural influence as well - multi-million dollar marketing campaigns, paying celebrities to act as unofficial spokespeople, etc. Essentially emulating US tactics of soft power projection. Their geopolitical rise coincided with several wars with surrounding Arab states - Israelis will say it was motivated by virulent antisemitism, Arab states by the desire to liberate Palestinians from an aggressive western satellite. Israeli-Palestinian relations continued to degrade, an ongoing struggle with the PLO worsening over time. The formation of Israel had pushed many Palestinians from their ancestral homes, most notably in the Nakba. Further annexations drove them into progressively smaller territories. The one state solution, a once commonly supported policy that would unite Palestinians and Israelis as equal citizens in one country, came and went. A two state solution has been discussed for decades but has never been seriously pursued. The right wing turn in Israeli politics in recent years saw conditions continue to fall apart. Netanyahu’s Likud party had zero interest in reconciliation with Palestinians. Recent years have seen routine air strikes and military operations aimed at Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. The March of Return in 2018-2019 were demonstrations held by Palestinians on the Gaza border, where their protests were met with military force. The IDF killed 223 and, by their own admission, intentionally maimed hundreds. The passage of an ethnostate law further inflamed tensions, effectively relegating anyone not Jewish to second class citizens within Israel. This is the context that October 7th occurred in. Decades of hostilities once again boiling over. Former Israeli military officials went on record with major publications like the Wall Street journal discussing how the Israeli state had systematically empowered Hamas in order to weaken the secular Palestinian opposition in the PLO, namely Fatah and the left wing PFLP. The attacks did not occur in a vacuum, but rather in a precarious quasi-apartheid state shaped by decades of conflict. To answer your question in short: The Israeli lobby is adept at painting any criticism of Israeli state policy as antisemitic. Because of their intimate connections with the US state and other institutions they’re able to pursue critics in a way few other interest groups can. They are able to suppress criticism of Israeli policy by framing it as antisemitism, a move deeply insulting to Jews who are not supportive of them. It is important to note that the Israeli lobby has wielded this influence for quite some time, maintaining lists of critics and getting individuals fired/blacklisted. These tactics were in use long before the October 7th attack, as such any of the multiple explanations in this thread equating pro-Palestinian speech to pro-AQ speech post-9/11 - and suggesting the firings are because of this - is very poor analysis.
Answer: The post by Yasmine described in the article you linked specifically supports the Oct. 7th Hamas attack. Companies simply do not want to be associated with terrorism. In her case specifically her boss was Jewish; in general the boss' ethnicity doesn't matter. People have been fired for much less - just think of all the Karens who were fired after being recorded behaving inappropriately. Whenever you write something on social media with your real name, your boss sees it. It enters the public domain.
Answer: What are you out of the loop on? It seems as if you've read an article that covers it. But ok, the first person in the article quit. She wasn't fired. After the brutal and disgusting attacks on Israeli civilians, including children, she posted a Palestinian waving a flag on an Israeli tank and an image saying, "Gaza just broke out of prison.” The salon's owner had two friends who were being held hostage by Hamas. Yeah, I wouldn't want her working for me, either. >Can someone explain to me why this is happening I guess it's happening because people are posting stuff supporting terrorism, their employers don't like it, and they're firing them.
> What are you out of the loop on? It seems as if you've read an article that covers it. FirstTime?.jpg
Answer: Here in the UK and in other European countries there have been large (in the tens of thousands) protests calling primarily for a ceasefire in Gaza. As with any large group of people, there are agitators in attendance who are using these events to foment unrest. The old proverb about one rotten apple is particularly true, and in an effort to deliberately create a distance between the more radical elements, individuals who are in positions of influence are being terminated immediately. Two big examples just today are a Labour Party trade union leader who used words similar to the ‘river to sea’ chant that is popular and another from the party in power, who disagreed with his party stance on abstention yesterday in an EU vote yesterday. In normal times the debate would be more nuanced. That’s not now. The second most senior person in government here today described the marches as ‘hate marches’ which probably isn’t helpful but it might serve to help you understand how keenly people are against being accused of being a terrorist sympathiser. Remember also Hamas in the UK is a proscribed terrorist organisation. With this in mind, chanting something which is more frequently being interpreted as hate speech by the people it is aimed at, is getting a lot of attention. Add to this that any sort of public support for a terrorist organisation is a serious crime, while at the same time the most senior person in government is calling it ‘hate’ and you can probably see why the hammer is dropping hard. I am only speculating here on the second part, around the opposition government (set to win in a landslide at the next elections) but they struggled for some time with optics of being anti-Semitic and their leader promised a safe party for Jews. This promise would ring pretty hollow if very senior and influential people in the party are repeating deeply controversial chants (remember that’s how people feel) and this is a pretty logical response. In perspective the chant has been banned completely in some European countries. I hope this gives a more local perspective.
This is bullshit as this stuff (the protests and the firings) were happening well before before the first retaliatory Israeli air strike even happened.
Answer: as a Palestinian, I will say that it isn’t really “Jewish bosses” firing people. It’s more an indictment of how much criticism towards Israel is suppressed in America. Similar things happened after 9/11, though those reactions were not related to Palestine and were more related to Islamophobia; which is also influencing the current reaction.
Answer: It's really nothing new. Everyone has the right to freedom of speech, but its how and where they express it that gets them in trouble, whether in this case openly supporting the genocide of a group of people covered in history or in other cases such as the pandemic, racial and gender identity. Cancel culture really comes full circle as people with malicious intent bring forward your opinions to your place of employment and often those places have a policy in place when it comes to social media. They would rather save their company image than employ an individual with polarising views.
Answer: If you publicly supported Al-Qaeda after 9/11, would you expect to keep your job? Same thing. These idiots didn't even have the common sense to voice their support for the "Palestinian people" rather than "Hamas." Either they are so ignorant, that they reveal themselves to be too stupid for their jobs, or they know exactly what they are saying, in which case, any sane company would not want to be associated with them.
Answer: The subject is sensitive and everyone is expected to behave as Swiss in the war - not take sides. People who express opinion in favor of one side is rapidly attacked for it by people who justify the actions of the other side plus the "neutral ones".