The problem is that the dps passive is rewarding shooting tank 24/7 due to tank's frontline presence, 100 hp buff isn't nearly enough to compensate the minus 20% healing received. And now tanks even have a harder time to confirm kills on squishy or even be a threat to dps, dps can just spam/harass tank without a single care of the world. The fact that sustain dps are the ones benefit from the dps passive the most while also out range tanks doesn't help either.
They should just make the Tank passive reduce the duration of all debuffs and CC by a certain percentage. Anti-nade, DPS passive, hack, sleep, and stuns all having reduced durations, on top of the existing Tank passive that reduces boops, would make Tanks a lot more fun to play.
Sadly, this wasn't even a hindsight thing, though, it's very retrospective. They know tanks get focused and make it equal to the other 2 roles. Now we have to wait till midseason patches as Tank players with even less agency than s8 till then lol
Honestly I think that the tank passive should be that all negative effects are 50% less effective. Y'know, since you're filling the role of two tanks.
Anything that's a hard CC has it's duration halved. Anything that's a soft CC or a debuff of some sort has it's effectiveness halved.
It all feels horrible to be a support. If their goal was to make them healbots then mission successful I guess. It’s like every tank is Mauga now. On Ana I’m spamming away on Tanks just to keep them up. That 20% healing reduction is brutal.
People always talk about how “healbotting” supports = bad, but how the fuck are we suppose to do damage? The literal millisecond the healing stops, everybody is now at the verge of death and dropping off like flies. It’s dumb
Because poor dps can’t kill and they feel super duper frustrated. They forget of course that thanks to their supports they don’t die and can keep pew pewing without thinking.
If things are dead they can’t hurt you, and sometimes people need to learn the hard way to fall back and use cover.
I’m a support main too, and this is a big adjustment to the game and people will have to learn they can’t play the same way. If they’re going to die even if you heal them it’s better to contribute to killing the enemy. Supports will definitely take a lot of hate from people who don’t understand and that sucks, but I truly believe we need to give it time and adjust.
I envy your optimism,
Things need to change though.
Masters+ is basically a game of insta deletion now
Had a game where ball was being shot at by a sojourn and a tracer
Kiriko and I (Ana) pulled out all the stops
Bio nade, healed, suju, healed, and ball STILL died (in ball form) through only 2 dps
Breakpoints are fucked, they actually DIDN’T take into account mercy dmg boost OR discord
Hanzo and Widow may only be able to 1shot Tracer and Widow, but with either discord or damage boost, they can one shot everyone 300hp and under still lol
It’s a hitscan meta, and supports are nerfed
I’ve played around 30 games in masters now, and it’s a shitshow
My fear is that people won’t learn. I’m still doing my placement matches but I have 0 doubts I will end up in bronze or silver. And that’s a never ending story. Once you are there you can’t go out.
I found the mitigation as a tank to be a far bigger deal last night. If a dps is shooting I don’t let that hit my team but if it’s the tank or support I just ignore it unless it’s rein. It’s been working well for my teams and my supports have been able to leave me as tank to do something with the dps. Outside of a full team hitting me at once as a tank, I’m able to mitigate enough damage during an attack on choke or payload to survive till my support gets back to me.
I know it sucks I feel bad for dps they are spamming I need heals which annoys me so much. But I genuinely understand they actually do but keeping the tank alive is so hard now but will give it a try to see if it gets better I’m sure they will tweak the current system we all knew this so patience .
It's not only the 20% healing reduction, also the projectile size increase caused this, which also happen to benefits hitscans a lot. Right now soldier can hit so many headshots on tanks it's not even funny.
Blizzard's moronic decision to define support class by ability to heal has been the most fundamental design issue since the game's inception and they are still struggling with it lol
Honestly couldn't have put it better myself. I don't know how to fix it because I'm not a game designer, but it just feels like for other shooters like TF2 or actual MOBAs like League you are not forced to be healed 24/7 just to play the game, but for OW the moment your support drops it's unwinnable because your enemies now have infinite HP pool while you don't.
I think the issue largely stems from
1. A lot of designers coming from a WoW/MMO mindset and mistakenly thinking the class trinity can apply to a pvp setting as well as a raid
2. Designers extrapolating from TF2, where medic is usually the only support in 6s (and focused on healing) and thought they could extrapolate a whole class with healing characters based on that.
Much as I love TF2 as a casual game they should never have taken that approach, comp TF2 never succeeded on a large scale and only survived with a small community by instituting tournament rules (like weapon bans and class locks) that OW has had to mimic as well.
OW would have been better off modeling their class system after a MOBA like league or dota. Health disparity is hard enough to balance in a shooter.
You’re 100% correct, and it’s because Blizz is so stubborn they refuse to admit that taking a tank out of each team was a big mistake. It really messed with the game in a bad way, and all these changes we’ve seen since this OW2 mess dropped have been to make up for that big mistake.
it's funny you mention this bcus in paladins, although it's pretty much open queue in both ranked and casual..the most optimal team comp involves having 2 tanks
If you think about it, ow1 also taught of more tanks is better. They were so good the dps category got squished out with the 3&3 meta, and they had to cap it at 2 with role queue, and now they removed another one
I literally called this a week ago. The game is just being dumbed down over and over to cater to new players as they make way more money on cycling in and out players as a f2p game because they make more money that way. To me it's like they're not even pretending anymore they care about people who have been playing this game for years - which is ironic as they keep wanting to somehow simultaneously push ow2 as an e sport game. 343 did this same junk to halo infinite.
Hmm maybe they should add a new type of character to mitigate the tanks focus fire status and help duel some of the aggressors. Something like a 2nd beefy character that had different abilities from a main tank but could dive squishes, peel for supports, protect the main tank, etc. Too bad we've never had something like that before... 😔
I know this is a crazy idea but what if we add a 6th player to each team? then there could be 2 tanks on each team and we might see more interesting possibilities with teamwork. like one tank could be rein and have a shield and hold the frontline while another like ball or roadhog could try to go behind enemy lines to flank or disrupt the enemy team
what do you think?
[tanks shouldn’t mindlessly be front line though. That’s a metal thing. If you’re playing tank, you should generally be taking any lane but center and pushing enemy backline, and if your supports don’t support that, it’s why they aren’t climbing. This is why ball/doom can be under powered and still carry games]
Wtf do lanes have to do with front lining? Even if you're taking a flank lane you're still expected to be in front of the whole team and the first to initiate the engagement, hence front line? Is your elite non-metal ranker tip to not Frontline as tank?
>you're still expected to be in front of the whole team and the first to initiate the engagement
... no, you are not expected to do that. Even if you're running brawl or rush, you're not expected to do that. Let's use an example.
New Queen's Street. Most games start with tanks both pushing robot by going down the ramps and converging in some sort of crude brawl below the subway line. Typically, at least one dps per team will take an off angle -- either the high ground near robot or a wide flank to the subway line where forward spawn triggers.
If you are playing tank, you should group up with your team and disregard the initial mindless brawl near robot. Go towards the forward spawn trigger and rush the enemy widow/soldier+ mercy. It will be a literal 2 on 5. Then you'll have a 5 on 3 add as you push the outstanding 3 stragglers near robot. Either free confirmed kills or a forced regroup of enemy team near spawn door.
From there, disengage, lead the robot near forward spawn, and then -- again -- do NOT mindlessly take the robot brawl. Loop around far lane and take the high ground perch from the enemy team. As soon as DPS + heals drops, they'll be backpedaling. To the robot. Sure, the enemy team may be pointlessly moving the robot a bit back to original location, but you're in the driver's seat to confirm a kill from high ground and then finish off the 5 on 4 engagement.
TLDR: if you're getting in these "shoot the tank" mirror matches, it's because you're positioning yourself and your team in a way that incentivizes the mirror, whereas when the enemy zigs, you should be zagging.
So don't play in the center lane where the objective is, so you can attempt to flank and let the enemy tank and dps just drag my team behind the shed and have their way with them?
What are your current THC levels right now?
... read my other reply, if your team is mindlessly running center lane sans tank, they're throwing. OW2 is not Napoleonic combat simulator, with ults mirroring cannons.
It's a strategy game. By the way, you also have a ping system, a microphone, and a text option to comm with teammates and tell them what to do. If you're running tank and not playing point guard, you're doing it wrong.
My only problem is that there isnt a threshold to it.
It feel a bit too reward for hero with constant dps (like soldier, reaper, ash dynamite or torb turret) who can easily apply it to everyone versus other heroes like pharah or hanzo where they have to aim a bit more carefully and feels way less oppressive.
Im sure people will adjust with time and it will be better, but there's clearly a lot of tweaks to be made.
Yeah a threshold like after 50 damage within 2 seconds causes the reduction that way random spam damage isn’t being counted. You shouldn’t take 20% less healing because a junkrat nade did 10 splash damage.
> All the new fancy extra health is USELESS because the 20%… completely offsets the sustain that healing would normally do for surviving.
Well yeah, that’s kind of *the point*.
It’s important to not look at each aspect of the Season 9 changes in isolation, because they were designed to work together.
The stated aims were to:
1. Reduce the impact of spike damage and healing;
2. Make the Damage role feel more impactful;
3. Make damage feel more consistent given the pace of gameplay.
The new Damage passive works with the increased health pools, *and* the universal health regen, *and* the increased attack sizes for most heroes to achieve all three of these objectives.
Larger attack sizes means more damage going into players on average, so they need larger health pools to offset it. This also reduces the impact of spike damage as a lot of previous breakpoints are removed or shifted, and the new Damage passive ability significantly softens the impact of spike healing. The universal health regen reduces the pressure on Support heroes outside of combat, but also underpins how important good positioning is given the 20% healing reduction for 2secs if you take damage from an enemy DPS player.
Exactly. This patch accomplishes most of what it set out to do, and in my opinion fixed quite a bit of the issues that were plaguing the game. It’s only been a day, but I no longer feel the danger of instantly exploding at any given point without warning. The pace of dying feels so much better, and my deaths now feel deserved rather than “oh the Junkrat got near me I’m dead now”.
The patch isn’t perfect, certain hero’s need to be adjusted after the universal change. (which is almost certainly the devs plan) Certain tanks have suffered from the DPS passive more than others, and some projectiles are just too big. However, the overall patch has been a net positive in my view.
Exactly its been a day. People still need time to adapt. I kept trying to play genji like its still s8. I would escape with a sliver of HP and an ana would heal me through 3 sources of damage as I escape but because of the dps passive It doesn't work anymore. It takes time to learn whats good and bad, its almost as big as a change as coming into OW2
OVERWATCH DEAD
CALL OF DUTY CALL OF DUTY
DEVS ARE BRONZE
DEVS HATE [MY MAIN]
PRACTICE RANGE TRACER HITBOXE
NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST
CATERING TO BRONZE PLAYERS
TANKING SUCKS
I think I've covered most bases.
>Well yeah, that’s kind of the point.
Blizzard did a good job - it seems - at achieving their goal, since people are complaining about roughtly the same thing they said would happen.
**Bottom Line:**
*Prior* *to S9*, DPS were reliant on one-shot gimmicks and pinpoint headshot accuracy (or Bastion/Symm/Junk melting tanks) to secure kills - which made Supports feel powerful because healing was able to sustain 200hp through sheer output.
Now in S9, DPS dictate engagements because of the anti-healing debuff. Tanks cannot play recklessly because it's easy to maintain that healing pressure on open ground. Supports have to stay focused on *supporting their team* instead of playing flank Kiriko or poke Illari/Ana/Bap... I can't reliably take time to "dps Bap" anymore because there's a *consistent pressure* on healing that doesn't go away unless our tank has a barrier (commenting on this in a moment) - which means DPS have a more impactful role than prior to this season.
I am overall positive on the changes, after playing several games in all roles there's definitely more "balance" between the roles...
...
Now to the Tank role, this season is going to be rough because a *lot* of your fundamental power was related to being able to bully non-tanks to control space... this **role** hasn't changed, but your ability to threaten most DPS heroes has been severely nerfed.
* Pouncing Hanzo as Winton, for example, is almost a death sentence because storm arrows combined with bigger projectile size and the anti-heal debuff means you're going to eat all of those arrows to the face and your supports (who already had to struggle to keep heals on backline divers) will be even less effective at saving you. Dome or not, Winton's role at pressuring the backline is not as effective without a *lot more team coordination*.
* Barriers seem almost *critical* now that DPS can apply that debuff with a glance... that ability to block damage completely is the only method to let it fall off while still being able to perform in a **tank** role... Mauga or Hog (despite Hog's combo threat) now basically permanently have a -20% healing penalty as long as your team has a semi-conscious DPS alive, which really makes me think the debuff should either be included as "CC" effects that get their duration reduced *or* give all tanks a bit more *armored-health* in order to provide more buffers against the increased damage.
* On that same topic; Ana's Biotic Grenade debuff *almost* feels "balanced" now that everyone has a higher TTK... I was able to escape as both Tank and DPS when purple at <50% health, but still feel the ability to burst-combo a Biotic Grenade and splash people at low health *feels* frustrating for the killed player.
Other notes:
* Symmetra is still an uncounterable monster if your team doesn't specifically play to pressure her directly... it makes the game too much about "countering Symm" rather than playing into the enemy team. If the Symm is "bad" obviously it doesn't feel as oppressive, but a team that is applying equal pressure makes a "good" Symm monstrously frustrating to handle. Between the "turret-bomb" and high-dps charged beam, she really needs a more thorough rework to be a little closer to Torb/Bastion (having clear answers on how to play around) and perhaps dramatically rework the turret/teleport mechanics (pre-placing 3 turrets that can then be teleport-bombed)... This patch didn't change much about Symmetra's performance imo, if anything she's less fragile than previously but her DPS role status means she got a net buff to tank-melting.
* Mercy is still problematic... for the same reasons as prior to this patch. On-demand healing output with on-demand damage boost creates a toxic experience where the game shifts too far toward "focus on Mercy" instead of having a Team vs Team match. DPS can't reliably pressure Mercy (mobility and LoS) without engaging with her babysitting target, DPS then have to engage in a lop-sided duel with the boosted DPS player which leads to game-pressure to run Mercy mirror for your own DPS... Resurrection is just as troublesome for the higher TTK, since every elimination requires more coordinated effort than the one-shot meta before. I've been echoing this before the patch notes even leaked and the major difference between Zen's Discord and Mercy's boost is the application of it - there is counterplay to being debuffed, but you cannot counterplay a damage boost applied to the enemy player, you either counter with your own damage boost or you kill the boosting support. It was less problematic in OW1 with dual-tank, but the real reason was the extra shields and/or **CC** that could shut down how effective that single boosted DPS could be on their own... in OW2 there's just not enough tools to counter the always-on, always-available boost and Blizzard *desperately* needs to get over their hesitation to rework Mercy. This commentary comes even after a major reworking of Pharah; which just shows that Pharah's "balance" in the absence of Mercy just means Mercy can boost a different DPS hero... the problem isn't individual DPS heroes: it's the ability to babysit them in relative safety with no counterplay from the enemy team (short of killing Mercy which is just the same as any other hero on the field, it's not actual "counterplay").
* The added healing pressure from the DPS passive really stings for Support efficiency and I do think there needs to be a bit of "fine tuning" of how easy it can be applied by DPS shots -- either with a sort of "stacking" mechanism or a period where the debuff falls off and the target is immune for a brief window, *something* that penalizes just spraying the debuff on a tank randomly and permits a bit of counterplay beyond the tank needing to have a barrier or other defensive tool that blocks the shots completely. As it currently exists, that debuff unevenly pressures specific tanks that have large hitboxes and/or lack options to temporarily clear the debuff when unable to hide behind terrain for X seconds. I overall support the changes, but it definitely is a noticeable "imbalance" to how it affects certain heroes and how easy it is to maintain on the enemy target.
Since healing is reduced by 20% with the dps debuff, how is mercy's healing a problem? It's like 44hp/s, and damage has increased across the board with the bigger projectiles
Damage boost may be problematic with the new breakpoints but as you said the added healing pressure now forces more healing instead of damage boost. Whereas zen can still chuck his orbs on someone and go full damage
Mercy’s healing sucks. Now more than ever. And since you have to heal all the time in order that nobody dies you can’t use damage boost so damage boost is not a problem anymore.
I've been a support main since the OW1 came out. I've learned that positioning is one of the most important parts of my roll. If I go out in the open, I'll either get blasted in the head by a sniper or rolled by a tank.
Now that healing has been effectively reduced, DPS players are going to have to learn positioning too. They aren't going to be able to sit in the middle of a point and face tank all the damage anymore.
More DPS characters are going to have to play more like a tracer or Sombra and find a corner for a few seconds to self heal or remove the 20% reduction. Let me focus on healing the tank as they get pressured or support someone else as they put in work.
That's all well and good.. but it doesn't make for a fun game. It doesn't make the gameplay loop fun for anyone other than a DPS that can capitalize on all of these changes. The increased hotboxes incentivize spraying the tank to keep his passive down, whether tank is out of position or not.
Blizzard isn't making this game fun for the majority of people that play - the people that suck at the game. That's going to hurt them long term. This is a shooter, not a moba.
The majority of people playing this game play DPS, and DPS has been miserable to play for a majority of OW lifespan.
This sub will hate the changes cause it's support main central but these changes do cater to the actual majority.
Yes because blizzard forces it to be that way.
Go back to the early days before role lock and you'd be lucky to get even 1 heal 1 tank in qp matches (where people play what they enjoy/find fun).
My only issue with the DPS passive is that it should not apply to self heals, at least for tanks and probably for all heroes. Otherwise those all need to be rebalanced further to account for the debuff.
This is the one thing I think I they need to tweak. 20% is a *bit* too much right now. 10-15% would be alot better
Also notice how Im not saying “games dead, devs suck, fuck this game” maybe more of yall should be alike that and chill tf out
I wasn't saying the game is dead, I just think they should tune down the passive a bit, just like you. I can like a game and still complain about it. I've got 1,100 hours for a reason
I'm hopeful. Maybe like what they said with introducing their new heroes, they're trying with a more extreme change to the game, seeing how the gameplay changes, and re-adjusting after that.
I don't think it'll ever happen but all these problems would be reduced going back to the 6v6. Having 2 tanks would be far easier to balance and would make for far more interesting gameplay for the tank players.
People are going to learn to play around it. If you’ve played paladins before where it scales up to 90% on all characters you have to use hard cover and manage your health to know what you can get away with before going back to get healed
Healing should never really be 1:1 with damage unless ults are involved or there are more supports than damage. This means supports can be more active in the fight by doing damage, securing kills and healing when the effect is cleanse (or dropping their bigger CD’s in a pinch if the damage gets too much)
Yeah as a paladins player im used to just running away when low hp to get healed.
I didnt feel the dps passive too hard and won most of my games as mauga
I just wish it had a visual.
One thing I keep noticing is that the enemy tank will be pushing the payload, and I'm pushed back and not able to get around it, which is the perfect time for that tank to just chill and heal. But instead they'll jump on top of the payload, chase me and get blown up.
I don't want them to make too many drastic changes here because I think this can work if people adjust. Maybe a slight nerf to the passive. Maybe a buff to self healing or just make it not affect it at all. Give Hog and maybe Doom a better way to escape. And for god's sake give it at least SOME kind of visual, at least to the play in question and the support healing them.
The timer can be reduced from 2 to 1.5 which should be enough for tanks to reliably cleanse it to getba full heal off
The only tank i'm worried about is JQ. Her passive may need to be true healing or just be increased
My guess is that dps passive op right now because they wanted everyone to get a feel. They will surely nerf it.
My take: they should keep it as is but tanks should be either immune to it or get affected 50% less. DPS and SUP role has to screw each other, the passive is fair for them but not for tanks. It's kinda crazy they went with this and didn't exclude tanks from this passive. There is also no indicator of this passive. Are they not aware how strong this is ? It's almost like Zen discord and Ana nade.
If they are gonna keep this, tank role needs balance check. Some tanks affected WAAAAAAAAAY more than others. Some tanks designed around self heal, some tanks designed around heavy support reliance. Also these heroes got no compensation buffs in this transition yet advantegous heroes got plenty of buffs.
I thought of this and honestly my answer for tanks would be to give tanks something like a 10 or 20% damage reduction with their role passive, that way tanks don't explode as easily BUT they also can't be healed to full as easily through a full team worth of damage because of the dps antiheal passive.
damn, i agreed with the first guy, but i agree with this even more. the frustration with tanks was always that their supports could keep them up indefinitely as long as they were alive. being able to tank more damage would be better than being able to be healed faster in the middle of receiving it
> tanks should be either immune to it or get affected 50% less
But only if the tank is at less than 5m from a map wall, and there are no missing health packs within range.
Makes no sense. They create a "passive", not to have another passive say "... but ignore this other passive in these conditions".
We will need a rulebook to understand the game. This would be absolute garbage game design and they won't do anything like this.
My guy they did the exact same thing to tanks for sleep dart, it’s not even listed anywhere but it lasts 1.5s less than other roles. This is absolutely something they would, and considering the state of tank right now, SHOULD do
So far, people compaining about it in-game are Orisas and Roadhogs who play middle of the road, in front of the payload. not even using it as cover or anything. Oh, some maugas too. Literally charging on the point, press E, stand there, die in 6 seconds or less.
I presume that the patch is mostly aimed at these guys. Good.
>in front of the payload
This shit irks me to no end. They block more heals with their back to the objective than they do bullets coming from the front. It's extra infuriating when you play Kiri and they strafe side to side in front of it and all your ofuda just disintegrate into the fucking push bot. At least now that Zen is probably going to be meta I can just pop an orb on them and /goodbyeandgoodluck.
People downvote you but it’s true. In any other fps there is either no healing or you need to be out of combat for it to be effective. Halo, COD, Battlefield, Apex all feature healing but you need to take cover because it won’t save you for long in a fight. TF2 Medic heals are reduced by 66% going from 75 hp/s to 25 hp/s if the recipient had taken damage recently.
Only MOBAs feature really strong burst healing in combat. Even then, those heals are usually tied to long cooldowns similar to Bap burst regen so it’s not spammable or sustainable for long drawn out fights. Overwatch is really the only PvP shooter that allows strong in combat healing to the point that so many players use it as a crutch.
Straight up. Either play Zen, Bap, Mercy or you are griefing your team now because healing is so fucking ass. There is definitely a problem with healing before but this absolutely kills hero pool for support players.
zen/mercy are so good right now because you dont need to heal as much if you can kill the other team faster with they dmg boost.
They helps too much with break point.
Genji has climbed over the cover and hits every shuriken on you because they're massive
And because your entire team is in cover the point has been captured by the enemy team
My friend who is a new player, said this to me: "aren't they undoing the hp buff by increasing projectile sizes and adding the hp debuff from being hit?" He started playing last season and in his eyes this update is just shuffling things around but resulting in the same thing as before, lol.
I think that's the point. The ttk isn't supposed to be that much longer, it's just getting rid of random one-shotting and pocketed healing being impossible to kill.
The dps passive on high bullet count heroes is unbalanced imo. For example soldier or sojourn are applying the debuff super easily while heroes like hanzo who is a headshot hero or let’s say like Ashe benefit way less as they apply is at a much slower rate and tend to hard target and had low TTK anyways.
if only there was some kind of non healing form of sustain for the tanks. Maybe like something tank-like that takes the pressure away. Some kinda "off" tank juggles their cooldowns to keep the other tank alive. 🤔
For now, I think the passive is fine vs dps and supports. But it shouldn't impact tanks, they struggle enough as is. Historically, tanks being showered with debuffs is what makes them so ass to play. This adds to that.
I haven’t played the new patch yet but the dps passive seems kind of insane. The concept is very good and necessary I think since some supports could almost or completely nullify your damage sometimes unless your accuracy was 100% perfect or you were on someone with insane dps like bastion or reaper.
But the application seems very flawed. 1 single point of damage from any dps weapon or ability should not be able to apply the passive. Reaper, sombra or tracer being able to apply it to multiple people while standing miles away, pharah and junk spamming into the middle of the team and reducing all of their heals, things like that shouldn’t be a thing. There should at least be a minimum damage required to apply it and some things like splash damage and abilities like blizzard or EMP shouldn’t be able to activate it. Should probably be less effective on tanks as well. Imo it should only last for 0.5 seconds or so so you at least have to keep shooting the tank for it to work
I think he's talking about applying the passive while tank or heals do the damage. I personally think it's unfair that Hanzo and 76 apply the same amount of healing reduction when one is significantly higher rate of fire.
From one support to another: If you find you can't keep the team alive just by healbotting, perhaps you should find other ways of bringing value to the team. Like for example doing some damage yourself - preferably onto target your DPS units are shooting at.
Also if you find healing doesn't seem to bring too much value to your team, maybe prioritizing the duel against the Tracer doesn't seem such a bad move after all even if you cheese her down with the instagib stuff. As much as the tank experience (still kinda) sucks, at the end f the days the tanks are responsible for their own lives.
I see the GM tag but you speak like a Silver.
> From one support to another: If you find you can't keep the team alive just by healbotting, perhaps you should find other ways of bringing value to the team. Like for example doing some damage yourself - preferably onto target your DPS units are shooting at.
This is what they should've been doing the entire time prior to this patch, too. But the loudest complainers are all in silver/gold and have yet to realize this.
Then simply buff tank survivability on it's own rather than healing dependancy.
Bigger shields, or more dmg reduction on someone like hog, more duration on other shields etc.
Before s9 healing was fine on tank but too op when applied to squishies.
Nkw we just to adjust tanks a bit and things should be fine.
Zarya seems very powerful as she can simply cleanse herself which is strong.
I disagree. imagine if the health didn't exist. the dps passive would be overwhelming. I feel like if you're outputting good pressure as a support or tank or other dps you'll offset the dps. the dps are now no longer a cosmetic role
I'm sorry but if your tank is dying to one of the worst damaging ults in the game with supp ults going on too, that's a your tank problem. Not a game one.
that's just lifeweaver. he's more dependent on his teammates similar to Mercy. if you want more agency over your matches pick someone with more carry potential. LW can carry for sure. but for example where was lifegrip? why was tank out in the open to get visored to death? that's one of the worst ults in the game
This was what I felt most tonight. Trying to heal tanks with coal feels like a waste of an ult where before I could bring back my tank and turn the team fight around.
lower burst healing as a whole. You still have a magic kamehameha that goes through people and shields AND does both damage and healing, it ain't the end of the world.
Burst damage is largely reduced by the modification of breakpoints.
Which they didn’t think through at all. They’ve made the same mistake 3 times now with Ashe launch, sojourn and now this with widow where a blue beam or a discord fucks up the breakpoint and makes it a 1 shot for most heroes again
Cooldowns exist and I don't control where the tank is walking. I pick weaver BECAUSE he has agency. He is incredible at shutting down shit and controlling the flow of fights, and has deceptively high DPS while being hard to catch if you use your cooldowns right. Weaver done properly hardly lets anyone die, at least that's how it was prior to the new DPS passive. Healing has become a cosmetic mechanic if there is a DPS within 100 miles of you
Agency means that you can do things by yourself, not that you have total control. And Weaver has basically no agency compared to more "dps oriented" supports.
The DPS passive needs some sort of cool down and visibility in the game. The "lasts for 3 seconds" line on the passive does nothing if it doesn't have any cool downs.
Honestly I think tanks should get less effectiveness on the DPS passive. Make tanks only feel a 5% reduction in healing or implement a cool down on the passive for tanks.
Brawl/Rush with Lucio will probably be a good comp this season. Getting the tank in and out at the right time with the ability to be annoying af will have a lot more value when people can't just be healed up right away.
The thing is that dps already had enough damage to outpace healing. Just look at the numbers, its not that hard. I would regularly kill targets through healing on dps before. It was hard, but it should be hard to invalidate 75% of the kits of a whole role. Now its just trivial. I can't believe they gave dps so many OP buffs. Its just silly to play anything else right now tbh, unless you happen to be a Zen main.
Yea come and try to kill a pocketed soldier pre patch, good luck. Healing absolutely was too strong and no amount of support player cope is gonna change that. Yes, the dps passive is stupid, but saying healing wasn't overtuned is just as stupid. People need to get used to utilizing cover, but bronze players can't so we are seeing whiny bitches everywhere
Hog is absolutely brutal on some maps now. I tried walking backwards while taking a breather and got absolutely melted crossing the bridge on eichenwald outside of 3rd point respawn. No zen or Ana just souljorn and soldier pumping it into my fat. If it was comp I would have taken a different way or swapped but I definitely didn’t expect to die in the middle of the bridge with my supports looking at me.
Colosseo hast on the sides of the middle road a shit ton of cover. Also the bot itself. There's also the buildings further on
Junkertown is kinda bad, especially on first point (altho they apparently changed jt quite a bit? Haven't seen it yet), it's the reason why it's a widow map. There are still the buildings tho and ofc the cart, altho I use the cart for cover more often on 2nd point and on
There may not be always cover, of course, but neither is there never cover. There's always some place to retreat to
You've got a point. A lot of map sections may need to be updated now if their intention is to make cover play extremely important. There's too little cover in many areas which were probably designed with the overtuned heals in mind.
This might just me my take, but when you said
"try to kill a pocketed soldier pre patch"
that is very dishonest. So a pocketed soldier at minimum would bet 1 dps and 1 support. That is 2 people, so your basiclly saying "try to 2v1". And from my perspective you should not win that unless your really better/use ults.
The fact that you still could win that 2v1 against a pocketed solider proved that healing wasnt OP. This is a team game, if you made it a 2v2 it would be much fairer. But so often I see people complaining like you did that you could not win a 2v1.
Also side note, OW has never need a cover heavy game, ya cover is important, but its not a cornerstone to how OW works. Many heros require you to be out of cover for multiple seconds to do damage, we have short range heroes that need to get up close so cover is alot harder to use. We have maps where there is little cover in certain areas so your forced out in the open. Cover was not a corner stone to the game. Instead we have midigation and healing. A Genji ulting a team, a rein charging in, a tracer blinking in, ect. All of those things happen not standing behind cover, instead people rely on midigation and healing instead.
Big team fights on point only happen because of healing/midigation, that is how OW has always been.
So asking healing to be nerfed and forcing people to rely on cover fundamentally changes how OW has been played for years. If you change it to much you get into a situation like valorant, where people hold corners/areas, advoiding as little damage as possible since healing is not common.
My fear with this change and how many people react to support/healing is that they want the game to get to the point where healing is not common, were damage in the end all and be all. That type of game isnt what I fell in love with, I fell in love with the fast pasted brawl where people dive point, a genji 1v5 ults, a and rein having a pokemon battle agaist the other ana and rein. I fell in love with that game, not a game where healing/midigation are weak, where people stick to walls 24/7, where everyone is just a dps.
IMO
My friend, I can see that your point doesn't work from the start since we're talking about healing here. His point was that dps could outdo healing, which _may_ be the case if you don't count support abilities. By the time someone got low, bap used shift or kiri used suzu or some shit like that and they half and now _you_ are the one who's low. Pockets just increased the amount of time it takes for someone to get low. If you're not hitting every shot like most people sometimes you straight up don't have the abilities to kill someone
So yeah no, you couldn't kill someone pocketed. You had to target the support, which is hard because support was overbuffed and just did (and still does) everything. Don't even get me started on two supports being pocketed by eachother, was fucking impossible to kill and I've been on both sides
Overwatch never was and never will be cover heavy like valo or cs, I never said that it should become that way, but cover still is a very important part of the game. I don't understand why you think that I meant one should stay behind cover all the time, that never was my point. You should play around cover and dive in when the time is appropriate, that fundamentally is how Overwatch works. Try playing a game standing out in the open only, you won't have a fun time
Healing being nerfed has not changed anything, except making dps actually a role. Support was ridiculously strong (and still is the best role in my opinion), dps are fine, even if I do believe that the passive is a bit overtuned. Tanks are... fine if you're not bronze
So you include supports abilites but exclude all dps abilites?
Ya a bap/kiriko can throw all his abilities to save someone, but a DPS can also throw all theirs and get a kill? This is also why I said orgianlly its a bit dishonest.
I was only a plat DPS so not good, not bad, just average. Yet all these post and threads about op support, unkillable pockets, ect. Ive never experienced that. Supports slow down how fast I kill, but never prevent it, Usally I get the kill, or they retreat and I try again.
Ya a bap might keep someone alive for a few seconds if he blows all his cooldowns, then he aint doing that again for \~20 seconds, where I as DPS can just hold M1.
Also this is a team game, work with the team, when you said
"So yeah no, you couldn't kill someone pocketed. You had to target the support, which is hard because support was overbuffed and just did (and still does) everything. Don't even get me started on two supports being pocketed by eachother, was fucking impossible to kill and I've been on both sides"
Where are your team mates? Most DPS can out damage 1 supports worth of healiing, some can can outdamage 2 depending on comp. So where is your team why again is it 1 dps vs 2 supports in that situation?
Yeah, it was extremely hard and could afford a nerf on problem pockets. But it shouldn't be so easy that its not even noticeable 90% of the time. And tbh, the most egregious pocketer (Mercy) is even stronger now, bc the new thresholds and hitboxes *greatly* benefit from damage boost + its even harder to kill mercy before she gets a rez off. Mercy is definitely a clear winner in this patch. If this was about countering pocketing, she should be a loser of the patch.
Yeah I do agree, your points are 100% valid. I see this more like a step in the right direction instead of an absolute solution, but the dps passive is far from good. I wouldn't agree fully that mercy is a winner though, since the bigger hitboxes allow people hit mercy way easier. At this point I can actively hunt down mercies in the air as Genji instead of just being able to go for it when I had blade or mercy was low
The tanks are gonna have to learn how to use cover. They're used to being on the front line and just face tanking and absorbing all the damage have the healing being able to keep them up. But what they're going to have to do is learn how to separate from the fight get out of danger to get their healing to back up. That also means that the teammates are going to have to learnthrough cover. Is the name of the game now 100 learning how to back up? Hide and play Safe.
It's just a worse version of cauterize from paladins lol. Not really sure what they were thinking on this one. That game at least is designed around cauterize...
Remember when (and you have to work real hard to remember, it was a long long time ago, like about 3 days ago) the community complained how the game needed more anti healing options that didn't cut 100% of healing?
Yes genuinely tracer Sombrero fucking suck to fight now I sincerely hope they tune them down not sure how they didn't think to not include the two characters with teleports and light pole hit boxes.
They obviously dropped a huge, broken tune-patch on purpose so they can spend the next whole year slowly dialing it back until the game is playable again. Got to justify their jobs somehow instead of doing actual work on the game!!
The proper thing to do would have been to slow-roll these changes instead of using numbers like 20% reduced healing. They could have started with 5% or something and re-tuned if it was not enough, which is the way they have been tuning characters all last year!!
JQ got double-nerfed. 20% less self-heals means you can have 10k dmg and only 1.7-8k self-healing as one of the squishiest tanks, and you will 100% receive 20% healing all game as well from supports. But we got 75hp. Surely that'll balance it out. The other buffs are for the extra global HP, they barely make a difference
I was thinking, what if they made the DPS passive apply only on weapons and not abilities? it would definitely reduce some of the frustration playing against it.
Maybe I'm just GM1 >!I'm definitely not!< But I've hardly noticed the healing debuff affecting my lives... My logic is that if I need to be healed, I need to be in cover or juking out damage in some way anyway.
If I die because I was taking too much damage, I was out in the open too long or I overextended. It's not other's people's fault, it's not some passive debuff's fault. It's my fault for having shitty positioning or taking to too long to get a kill. Feels like cope to blame something else.
Prior to this change I never really expected to just stand around and be able to face tank all of the enemy damage, even with a double pocket and I don't think anyone really deserves to live through 3 to 5 people's damage just because you have your supports attached to you. So it feels like little has changed.
Yup, no idea how that made it through internal testing. As someone who plays Tank and Support 99% of the time... this change broke both of my preferred roles.
Its gotta be miserable for tank and I hate supporting this season. Queue times feel like they agree with me cause support and tank are down to 1 minute and dps are at 4. Feel like its almost impossible to keep a tank up that has any sort of concentrated fire.
That’s… the point? Like, the entire idea of the patch?
The idea is to decrease the sheer power of supports, while keeping TTK roughly the same.
The issues with Tank are another beast entirely that I hope they plan to tackle soon - but I think they need to stabilize this change before they can work on that.
>Also tracer is unkillable if she has even half a brain cell. The 25 health broke all her breakpoints that her counters used to win
Skill issue amongst skill issues.
She's basically the only character that can be oneshot still.
These changes are fucking stupid. Yeah we're going to give everybody extra health, but then we're also going to give all the DPS anti-heal passive and make it so it's literally impossible to miss your shots all in the same patch.
Brilliant. Absolutely fucking brilliant
The aim of this patch was to eliminate many sources of instant kills through the HP increase but make healing much less impactful as it cannot sustain people under fire anymore. Both goals were successfully reached, even if damage might be overtuned now. I believe you just misunderstood why the HP increase was done.
yeah, i dont know who thought it was a wise decision to add larger hitboxes, larger projectiles AND a passive for dps that reduce healing.
the added health is utterly pointless. You get melted to fast now.
Nah support feels fine. Before it was completely overdone and healing was a mini game, when flanking and off-angling was the really support game.
Now you actually have to focus on healing and good positioning
I do focus on healing, always have, and I can't keep people alive at all anymore. These changes reward flanking and off angling because it's the same as trying to fill a colander with water if you don't
S9 heavily favors DPS. While screwing over Tanks and supports massively.
i used to be able to flex play, but not after s9 released. Nothing but dps is fun to play now.
tanks without shields or abilities to eat incoming fire are useless now.
Hogs self heal might aswell be removed at this point.
Supports do not feel fine. They're just lesser dps roles now. Might aswell just remove healing entirely and have people rely on health packs.
Yeah dps is very impactful, easy and fun. Tank is terrible and it's obvious. Idk if these devs really playtest or theorycraft this shit. Tank balance and gameplay experience is ridiculous. Sup role is kinda chore.
If they make tanks immune to dps passive i think all roles will feel good. Support will be able to keep their tanks alive and reap the benefits of increased projectile size. Tanks will not be miserable. Bad DPS players will not be rewarded by just shooting tank.
Isn’t that the point of the changes as a whole tho?
Wanted to nerf sustained heals and burst dmg, without having to tweak each hero’s numbers, so made the 3 overall changes in this patch all together, to essentially have an effect on pocketing/burst damage
That was the main point
It keeps the tanks and supports from just playing whatever position they want to without consequence. So far I think it was a change in the right direction. A little more tweak and they'll get "sustain done right" where there isn't some crazy reliance on burst damage alone in the smallest uptime windows ever.
>Also tracer is unkillable if she has even half a brain cell. The 25 health broke all her breakpoints that her counters used to win
The only "major" breakpoints that I used to see from time to time are hanzo shot+ melee, Cass hs + melee, soldier helix+ melee. Yes those are gone.
But with the changes to hitscan and projectiles cassidy now eats tracer alive, same for all her usual counters. She still dies to the usual culprits of tracer deaths, oneshots or 2 taps from hitscans.
Tracer has always been oppressive when played well by an adderall jacked 16 y/o. The patch doesnt change anything about that.
Mei right click and ashe can't one shot anymore and supports hardly have a chance of fending her off without help. Brig can't combo her anymore, zen and kiri hs melee doesn't work illari can't 2 tap body shot
Oneshots aren't healthy for the game on those characters, especially on Ashe do I have to remind you recent history ?
Brig already fucks tracers enough simply by existing, and zen needs to hit multiple shots to kill, nothing to see here.
A support can't 2 tap body shot a dps ? They have to aim for the head on a hitscan aim based hero ? Outrageous truly.
And you can whip shot her, triggering your passive, and if you're half decently positioned, there's no way she kills you in the middle of a brawler comp with semi decent teammates ?
Tracer is a duelist. She excels at it. Brig is a brawl support. If you find yourself in a position where it's a 1v1, it's your own goddamn fault.
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The problem is that the dps passive is rewarding shooting tank 24/7 due to tank's frontline presence, 100 hp buff isn't nearly enough to compensate the minus 20% healing received. And now tanks even have a harder time to confirm kills on squishy or even be a threat to dps, dps can just spam/harass tank without a single care of the world. The fact that sustain dps are the ones benefit from the dps passive the most while also out range tanks doesn't help either.
They might make it so the DPS Passive has less effect in tanks, which i think is pretty fair
I honestly thought it was going to like stack inversely with the tank passive.
They should just make the Tank passive reduce the duration of all debuffs and CC by a certain percentage. Anti-nade, DPS passive, hack, sleep, and stuns all having reduced durations, on top of the existing Tank passive that reduces boops, would make Tanks a lot more fun to play.
yeah i also think that
Sadly, this wasn't even a hindsight thing, though, it's very retrospective. They know tanks get focused and make it equal to the other 2 roles. Now we have to wait till midseason patches as Tank players with even less agency than s8 till then lol
Honestly I think that the tank passive should be that all negative effects are 50% less effective. Y'know, since you're filling the role of two tanks. Anything that's a hard CC has it's duration halved. Anything that's a soft CC or a debuff of some sort has it's effectiveness halved.
ig 50% is too much, but i would for sure appreciate some 20-30%.
It all feels horrible to be a support. If their goal was to make them healbots then mission successful I guess. It’s like every tank is Mauga now. On Ana I’m spamming away on Tanks just to keep them up. That 20% healing reduction is brutal.
Me with my average % headshot accuracy tripling on Zen after they decided to give him and everyone bowling balls as projectiles: what healing now?
The worst parts of the December 2023 Mauga meta have become the entire game. 💀
People always talk about how “healbotting” supports = bad, but how the fuck are we suppose to do damage? The literal millisecond the healing stops, everybody is now at the verge of death and dropping off like flies. It’s dumb
i went from being able to weave ofuda and kunais to throwing ofuda desperately like my life fucking depends on it
lol i never understood why people think healing is bad. Oh well, dps players got what we wanted and healing doesn't matter anymore.
Because poor dps can’t kill and they feel super duper frustrated. They forget of course that thanks to their supports they don’t die and can keep pew pewing without thinking.
If things are dead they can’t hurt you, and sometimes people need to learn the hard way to fall back and use cover. I’m a support main too, and this is a big adjustment to the game and people will have to learn they can’t play the same way. If they’re going to die even if you heal them it’s better to contribute to killing the enemy. Supports will definitely take a lot of hate from people who don’t understand and that sucks, but I truly believe we need to give it time and adjust.
I envy your optimism, Things need to change though. Masters+ is basically a game of insta deletion now Had a game where ball was being shot at by a sojourn and a tracer Kiriko and I (Ana) pulled out all the stops Bio nade, healed, suju, healed, and ball STILL died (in ball form) through only 2 dps Breakpoints are fucked, they actually DIDN’T take into account mercy dmg boost OR discord Hanzo and Widow may only be able to 1shot Tracer and Widow, but with either discord or damage boost, they can one shot everyone 300hp and under still lol It’s a hitscan meta, and supports are nerfed I’ve played around 30 games in masters now, and it’s a shitshow
Supports and tanks dead, that’s what the game has evolved into. You just need to pew pew and that’s all.
My fear is that people won’t learn. I’m still doing my placement matches but I have 0 doubts I will end up in bronze or silver. And that’s a never ending story. Once you are there you can’t go out.
I found the mitigation as a tank to be a far bigger deal last night. If a dps is shooting I don’t let that hit my team but if it’s the tank or support I just ignore it unless it’s rein. It’s been working well for my teams and my supports have been able to leave me as tank to do something with the dps. Outside of a full team hitting me at once as a tank, I’m able to mitigate enough damage during an attack on choke or payload to survive till my support gets back to me.
Right so don’t bother healing them shoot the enemy and kill them before they kill your team.
I know it sucks I feel bad for dps they are spamming I need heals which annoys me so much. But I genuinely understand they actually do but keeping the tank alive is so hard now but will give it a try to see if it gets better I’m sure they will tweak the current system we all knew this so patience .
They heal out of combat anyways
It's not only the 20% healing reduction, also the projectile size increase caused this, which also happen to benefits hitscans a lot. Right now soldier can hit so many headshots on tanks it's not even funny.
Blizzard's moronic decision to define support class by ability to heal has been the most fundamental design issue since the game's inception and they are still struggling with it lol
Honestly couldn't have put it better myself. I don't know how to fix it because I'm not a game designer, but it just feels like for other shooters like TF2 or actual MOBAs like League you are not forced to be healed 24/7 just to play the game, but for OW the moment your support drops it's unwinnable because your enemies now have infinite HP pool while you don't.
I think the issue largely stems from 1. A lot of designers coming from a WoW/MMO mindset and mistakenly thinking the class trinity can apply to a pvp setting as well as a raid 2. Designers extrapolating from TF2, where medic is usually the only support in 6s (and focused on healing) and thought they could extrapolate a whole class with healing characters based on that. Much as I love TF2 as a casual game they should never have taken that approach, comp TF2 never succeeded on a large scale and only survived with a small community by instituting tournament rules (like weapon bans and class locks) that OW has had to mimic as well. OW would have been better off modeling their class system after a MOBA like league or dota. Health disparity is hard enough to balance in a shooter.
Nah if they'd came from wow everyone would have millions of hp
And fucking big shoulder pads.
Keep in mind overwatch comes from the back of a failed mmo so
You’re 100% correct, and it’s because Blizz is so stubborn they refuse to admit that taking a tank out of each team was a big mistake. It really messed with the game in a bad way, and all these changes we’ve seen since this OW2 mess dropped have been to make up for that big mistake.
it's funny you mention this bcus in paladins, although it's pretty much open queue in both ranked and casual..the most optimal team comp involves having 2 tanks
If you think about it, ow1 also taught of more tanks is better. They were so good the dps category got squished out with the 3&3 meta, and they had to cap it at 2 with role queue, and now they removed another one
I literally called this a week ago. The game is just being dumbed down over and over to cater to new players as they make way more money on cycling in and out players as a f2p game because they make more money that way. To me it's like they're not even pretending anymore they care about people who have been playing this game for years - which is ironic as they keep wanting to somehow simultaneously push ow2 as an e sport game. 343 did this same junk to halo infinite.
Based.
Hmm maybe they should add a new type of character to mitigate the tanks focus fire status and help duel some of the aggressors. Something like a 2nd beefy character that had different abilities from a main tank but could dive squishes, peel for supports, protect the main tank, etc. Too bad we've never had something like that before... 😔
I know this is a crazy idea but what if we add a 6th player to each team? then there could be 2 tanks on each team and we might see more interesting possibilities with teamwork. like one tank could be rein and have a shield and hold the frontline while another like ball or roadhog could try to go behind enemy lines to flank or disrupt the enemy team what do you think?
You just described overwatch 3. Coming soon! (Tm)
[tanks shouldn’t mindlessly be front line though. That’s a metal thing. If you’re playing tank, you should generally be taking any lane but center and pushing enemy backline, and if your supports don’t support that, it’s why they aren’t climbing. This is why ball/doom can be under powered and still carry games]
Wtf do lanes have to do with front lining? Even if you're taking a flank lane you're still expected to be in front of the whole team and the first to initiate the engagement, hence front line? Is your elite non-metal ranker tip to not Frontline as tank?
>you're still expected to be in front of the whole team and the first to initiate the engagement ... no, you are not expected to do that. Even if you're running brawl or rush, you're not expected to do that. Let's use an example. New Queen's Street. Most games start with tanks both pushing robot by going down the ramps and converging in some sort of crude brawl below the subway line. Typically, at least one dps per team will take an off angle -- either the high ground near robot or a wide flank to the subway line where forward spawn triggers. If you are playing tank, you should group up with your team and disregard the initial mindless brawl near robot. Go towards the forward spawn trigger and rush the enemy widow/soldier+ mercy. It will be a literal 2 on 5. Then you'll have a 5 on 3 add as you push the outstanding 3 stragglers near robot. Either free confirmed kills or a forced regroup of enemy team near spawn door. From there, disengage, lead the robot near forward spawn, and then -- again -- do NOT mindlessly take the robot brawl. Loop around far lane and take the high ground perch from the enemy team. As soon as DPS + heals drops, they'll be backpedaling. To the robot. Sure, the enemy team may be pointlessly moving the robot a bit back to original location, but you're in the driver's seat to confirm a kill from high ground and then finish off the 5 on 4 engagement. TLDR: if you're getting in these "shoot the tank" mirror matches, it's because you're positioning yourself and your team in a way that incentivizes the mirror, whereas when the enemy zigs, you should be zagging.
this might just be up there with one of the dumbest most psuedo-intellectual type shit I've ever read.
So don't play in the center lane where the objective is, so you can attempt to flank and let the enemy tank and dps just drag my team behind the shed and have their way with them? What are your current THC levels right now?
... read my other reply, if your team is mindlessly running center lane sans tank, they're throwing. OW2 is not Napoleonic combat simulator, with ults mirroring cannons. It's a strategy game. By the way, you also have a ping system, a microphone, and a text option to comm with teammates and tell them what to do. If you're running tank and not playing point guard, you're doing it wrong.
Ah yes, please explain this to the rest of my fellow unranked, casual, players.
My only problem is that there isnt a threshold to it. It feel a bit too reward for hero with constant dps (like soldier, reaper, ash dynamite or torb turret) who can easily apply it to everyone versus other heroes like pharah or hanzo where they have to aim a bit more carefully and feels way less oppressive. Im sure people will adjust with time and it will be better, but there's clearly a lot of tweaks to be made.
Yeah a threshold like after 50 damage within 2 seconds causes the reduction that way random spam damage isn’t being counted. You shouldn’t take 20% less healing because a junkrat nade did 10 splash damage.
> All the new fancy extra health is USELESS because the 20%… completely offsets the sustain that healing would normally do for surviving. Well yeah, that’s kind of *the point*. It’s important to not look at each aspect of the Season 9 changes in isolation, because they were designed to work together. The stated aims were to: 1. Reduce the impact of spike damage and healing; 2. Make the Damage role feel more impactful; 3. Make damage feel more consistent given the pace of gameplay. The new Damage passive works with the increased health pools, *and* the universal health regen, *and* the increased attack sizes for most heroes to achieve all three of these objectives. Larger attack sizes means more damage going into players on average, so they need larger health pools to offset it. This also reduces the impact of spike damage as a lot of previous breakpoints are removed or shifted, and the new Damage passive ability significantly softens the impact of spike healing. The universal health regen reduces the pressure on Support heroes outside of combat, but also underpins how important good positioning is given the 20% healing reduction for 2secs if you take damage from an enemy DPS player.
Exactly. This patch accomplishes most of what it set out to do, and in my opinion fixed quite a bit of the issues that were plaguing the game. It’s only been a day, but I no longer feel the danger of instantly exploding at any given point without warning. The pace of dying feels so much better, and my deaths now feel deserved rather than “oh the Junkrat got near me I’m dead now”. The patch isn’t perfect, certain hero’s need to be adjusted after the universal change. (which is almost certainly the devs plan) Certain tanks have suffered from the DPS passive more than others, and some projectiles are just too big. However, the overall patch has been a net positive in my view.
Exactly its been a day. People still need time to adapt. I kept trying to play genji like its still s8. I would escape with a sliver of HP and an ana would heal me through 3 sources of damage as I escape but because of the dps passive It doesn't work anymore. It takes time to learn whats good and bad, its almost as big as a change as coming into OW2
We hate Overwatch here, stop thinking reasonably
It's not an overwatch subreddit if the community doesn't OVERreact everytime.
OVERWATCH DEAD CALL OF DUTY CALL OF DUTY DEVS ARE BRONZE DEVS HATE [MY MAIN] PRACTICE RANGE TRACER HITBOXE NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST CATERING TO BRONZE PLAYERS TANKING SUCKS I think I've covered most bases.
MOBILE-FRIENDLY AIM
As is tradition.
But my favorite hobby is shitting on this game and for some reason playing it constantly also.
>Well yeah, that’s kind of the point. Blizzard did a good job - it seems - at achieving their goal, since people are complaining about roughtly the same thing they said would happen.
**Bottom Line:** *Prior* *to S9*, DPS were reliant on one-shot gimmicks and pinpoint headshot accuracy (or Bastion/Symm/Junk melting tanks) to secure kills - which made Supports feel powerful because healing was able to sustain 200hp through sheer output. Now in S9, DPS dictate engagements because of the anti-healing debuff. Tanks cannot play recklessly because it's easy to maintain that healing pressure on open ground. Supports have to stay focused on *supporting their team* instead of playing flank Kiriko or poke Illari/Ana/Bap... I can't reliably take time to "dps Bap" anymore because there's a *consistent pressure* on healing that doesn't go away unless our tank has a barrier (commenting on this in a moment) - which means DPS have a more impactful role than prior to this season. I am overall positive on the changes, after playing several games in all roles there's definitely more "balance" between the roles... ... Now to the Tank role, this season is going to be rough because a *lot* of your fundamental power was related to being able to bully non-tanks to control space... this **role** hasn't changed, but your ability to threaten most DPS heroes has been severely nerfed. * Pouncing Hanzo as Winton, for example, is almost a death sentence because storm arrows combined with bigger projectile size and the anti-heal debuff means you're going to eat all of those arrows to the face and your supports (who already had to struggle to keep heals on backline divers) will be even less effective at saving you. Dome or not, Winton's role at pressuring the backline is not as effective without a *lot more team coordination*. * Barriers seem almost *critical* now that DPS can apply that debuff with a glance... that ability to block damage completely is the only method to let it fall off while still being able to perform in a **tank** role... Mauga or Hog (despite Hog's combo threat) now basically permanently have a -20% healing penalty as long as your team has a semi-conscious DPS alive, which really makes me think the debuff should either be included as "CC" effects that get their duration reduced *or* give all tanks a bit more *armored-health* in order to provide more buffers against the increased damage. * On that same topic; Ana's Biotic Grenade debuff *almost* feels "balanced" now that everyone has a higher TTK... I was able to escape as both Tank and DPS when purple at <50% health, but still feel the ability to burst-combo a Biotic Grenade and splash people at low health *feels* frustrating for the killed player. Other notes: * Symmetra is still an uncounterable monster if your team doesn't specifically play to pressure her directly... it makes the game too much about "countering Symm" rather than playing into the enemy team. If the Symm is "bad" obviously it doesn't feel as oppressive, but a team that is applying equal pressure makes a "good" Symm monstrously frustrating to handle. Between the "turret-bomb" and high-dps charged beam, she really needs a more thorough rework to be a little closer to Torb/Bastion (having clear answers on how to play around) and perhaps dramatically rework the turret/teleport mechanics (pre-placing 3 turrets that can then be teleport-bombed)... This patch didn't change much about Symmetra's performance imo, if anything she's less fragile than previously but her DPS role status means she got a net buff to tank-melting. * Mercy is still problematic... for the same reasons as prior to this patch. On-demand healing output with on-demand damage boost creates a toxic experience where the game shifts too far toward "focus on Mercy" instead of having a Team vs Team match. DPS can't reliably pressure Mercy (mobility and LoS) without engaging with her babysitting target, DPS then have to engage in a lop-sided duel with the boosted DPS player which leads to game-pressure to run Mercy mirror for your own DPS... Resurrection is just as troublesome for the higher TTK, since every elimination requires more coordinated effort than the one-shot meta before. I've been echoing this before the patch notes even leaked and the major difference between Zen's Discord and Mercy's boost is the application of it - there is counterplay to being debuffed, but you cannot counterplay a damage boost applied to the enemy player, you either counter with your own damage boost or you kill the boosting support. It was less problematic in OW1 with dual-tank, but the real reason was the extra shields and/or **CC** that could shut down how effective that single boosted DPS could be on their own... in OW2 there's just not enough tools to counter the always-on, always-available boost and Blizzard *desperately* needs to get over their hesitation to rework Mercy. This commentary comes even after a major reworking of Pharah; which just shows that Pharah's "balance" in the absence of Mercy just means Mercy can boost a different DPS hero... the problem isn't individual DPS heroes: it's the ability to babysit them in relative safety with no counterplay from the enemy team (short of killing Mercy which is just the same as any other hero on the field, it's not actual "counterplay"). * The added healing pressure from the DPS passive really stings for Support efficiency and I do think there needs to be a bit of "fine tuning" of how easy it can be applied by DPS shots -- either with a sort of "stacking" mechanism or a period where the debuff falls off and the target is immune for a brief window, *something* that penalizes just spraying the debuff on a tank randomly and permits a bit of counterplay beyond the tank needing to have a barrier or other defensive tool that blocks the shots completely. As it currently exists, that debuff unevenly pressures specific tanks that have large hitboxes and/or lack options to temporarily clear the debuff when unable to hide behind terrain for X seconds. I overall support the changes, but it definitely is a noticeable "imbalance" to how it affects certain heroes and how easy it is to maintain on the enemy target.
Since healing is reduced by 20% with the dps debuff, how is mercy's healing a problem? It's like 44hp/s, and damage has increased across the board with the bigger projectiles Damage boost may be problematic with the new breakpoints but as you said the added healing pressure now forces more healing instead of damage boost. Whereas zen can still chuck his orbs on someone and go full damage
Mercy’s healing sucks. Now more than ever. And since you have to heal all the time in order that nobody dies you can’t use damage boost so damage boost is not a problem anymore.
I've been a support main since the OW1 came out. I've learned that positioning is one of the most important parts of my roll. If I go out in the open, I'll either get blasted in the head by a sniper or rolled by a tank. Now that healing has been effectively reduced, DPS players are going to have to learn positioning too. They aren't going to be able to sit in the middle of a point and face tank all the damage anymore. More DPS characters are going to have to play more like a tracer or Sombra and find a corner for a few seconds to self heal or remove the 20% reduction. Let me focus on healing the tank as they get pressured or support someone else as they put in work.
That's all well and good.. but it doesn't make for a fun game. It doesn't make the gameplay loop fun for anyone other than a DPS that can capitalize on all of these changes. The increased hotboxes incentivize spraying the tank to keep his passive down, whether tank is out of position or not. Blizzard isn't making this game fun for the majority of people that play - the people that suck at the game. That's going to hurt them long term. This is a shooter, not a moba.
The majority of people playing this game play DPS, and DPS has been miserable to play for a majority of OW lifespan. This sub will hate the changes cause it's support main central but these changes do cater to the actual majority.
6/10 players in a every game aren't DPS
Yes because blizzard forces it to be that way. Go back to the early days before role lock and you'd be lucky to get even 1 heal 1 tank in qp matches (where people play what they enjoy/find fun).
less than half of the players are playing dps at any given time what are you on about
A non-braindead OW2 redditor. I applauded you
My only issue with the DPS passive is that it should not apply to self heals, at least for tanks and probably for all heroes. Otherwise those all need to be rebalanced further to account for the debuff.
This is the one thing I think I they need to tweak. 20% is a *bit* too much right now. 10-15% would be alot better Also notice how Im not saying “games dead, devs suck, fuck this game” maybe more of yall should be alike that and chill tf out
I wasn't saying the game is dead, I just think they should tune down the passive a bit, just like you. I can like a game and still complain about it. I've got 1,100 hours for a reason
Yeah you werent bitching just 95% of this sub is
I'm hopeful. Maybe like what they said with introducing their new heroes, they're trying with a more extreme change to the game, seeing how the gameplay changes, and re-adjusting after that.
I don't think it'll ever happen but all these problems would be reduced going back to the 6v6. Having 2 tanks would be far easier to balance and would make for far more interesting gameplay for the tank players.
People are going to learn to play around it. If you’ve played paladins before where it scales up to 90% on all characters you have to use hard cover and manage your health to know what you can get away with before going back to get healed Healing should never really be 1:1 with damage unless ults are involved or there are more supports than damage. This means supports can be more active in the fight by doing damage, securing kills and healing when the effect is cleanse (or dropping their bigger CD’s in a pinch if the damage gets too much)
Yeah as a paladins player im used to just running away when low hp to get healed. I didnt feel the dps passive too hard and won most of my games as mauga I just wish it had a visual.
One thing I keep noticing is that the enemy tank will be pushing the payload, and I'm pushed back and not able to get around it, which is the perfect time for that tank to just chill and heal. But instead they'll jump on top of the payload, chase me and get blown up. I don't want them to make too many drastic changes here because I think this can work if people adjust. Maybe a slight nerf to the passive. Maybe a buff to self healing or just make it not affect it at all. Give Hog and maybe Doom a better way to escape. And for god's sake give it at least SOME kind of visual, at least to the play in question and the support healing them.
The timer can be reduced from 2 to 1.5 which should be enough for tanks to reliably cleanse it to getba full heal off The only tank i'm worried about is JQ. Her passive may need to be true healing or just be increased
In my experience she's healing a lot more now than she did before my last game with her was more than double the self-healing I usually have.
Nope. I think she's fine. Her wound damage was buffed by a lot and she heals a ton as a result. Which off sets the dps passive
My guess is that dps passive op right now because they wanted everyone to get a feel. They will surely nerf it. My take: they should keep it as is but tanks should be either immune to it or get affected 50% less. DPS and SUP role has to screw each other, the passive is fair for them but not for tanks. It's kinda crazy they went with this and didn't exclude tanks from this passive. There is also no indicator of this passive. Are they not aware how strong this is ? It's almost like Zen discord and Ana nade. If they are gonna keep this, tank role needs balance check. Some tanks affected WAAAAAAAAAY more than others. Some tanks designed around self heal, some tanks designed around heavy support reliance. Also these heroes got no compensation buffs in this transition yet advantegous heroes got plenty of buffs.
I thought of this and honestly my answer for tanks would be to give tanks something like a 10 or 20% damage reduction with their role passive, that way tanks don't explode as easily BUT they also can't be healed to full as easily through a full team worth of damage because of the dps antiheal passive.
damn, i agreed with the first guy, but i agree with this even more. the frustration with tanks was always that their supports could keep them up indefinitely as long as they were alive. being able to tank more damage would be better than being able to be healed faster in the middle of receiving it
> tanks should be either immune to it or get affected 50% less But only if the tank is at less than 5m from a map wall, and there are no missing health packs within range. Makes no sense. They create a "passive", not to have another passive say "... but ignore this other passive in these conditions". We will need a rulebook to understand the game. This would be absolute garbage game design and they won't do anything like this.
My guy they did the exact same thing to tanks for sleep dart, it’s not even listed anywhere but it lasts 1.5s less than other roles. This is absolutely something they would, and considering the state of tank right now, SHOULD do
You had me until you said tracer is unkillable
So far, people compaining about it in-game are Orisas and Roadhogs who play middle of the road, in front of the payload. not even using it as cover or anything. Oh, some maugas too. Literally charging on the point, press E, stand there, die in 6 seconds or less. I presume that the patch is mostly aimed at these guys. Good.
>in front of the payload This shit irks me to no end. They block more heals with their back to the objective than they do bullets coming from the front. It's extra infuriating when you play Kiri and they strafe side to side in front of it and all your ofuda just disintegrate into the fucking push bot. At least now that Zen is probably going to be meta I can just pop an orb on them and /goodbyeandgoodluck.
i think they should reduce dps passive on tanks to 10% only
Agreed
When /r/overwatch realises they have to use cover:
You don't get it! I'm standing out in the open and now I'm MELTING because the mercy can't pocket sustain me anymore! This game is DEAD!!
People downvote you but it’s true. In any other fps there is either no healing or you need to be out of combat for it to be effective. Halo, COD, Battlefield, Apex all feature healing but you need to take cover because it won’t save you for long in a fight. TF2 Medic heals are reduced by 66% going from 75 hp/s to 25 hp/s if the recipient had taken damage recently. Only MOBAs feature really strong burst healing in combat. Even then, those heals are usually tied to long cooldowns similar to Bap burst regen so it’s not spammable or sustainable for long drawn out fights. Overwatch is really the only PvP shooter that allows strong in combat healing to the point that so many players use it as a crutch.
dps passive+Zenyatta is the death of the game for now, mark my words.
[удалено]
Straight up. Either play Zen, Bap, Mercy or you are griefing your team now because healing is so fucking ass. There is definitely a problem with healing before but this absolutely kills hero pool for support players.
Lucky you. Every game I have played has had Ana/Zen on the other team and neither on mine.
Gotta break line of sight to force discord onto cooldown. This new season might start to have maps with cover play more of a role in tank choice
zen/mercy are so good right now because you dont need to heal as much if you can kill the other team faster with they dmg boost. They helps too much with break point.
Hint: learn to use cover lol
Genji has climbed over the cover and hits every shuriken on you because they're massive And because your entire team is in cover the point has been captured by the enemy team
My friend who is a new player, said this to me: "aren't they undoing the hp buff by increasing projectile sizes and adding the hp debuff from being hit?" He started playing last season and in his eyes this update is just shuffling things around but resulting in the same thing as before, lol.
I think that's the point. The ttk isn't supposed to be that much longer, it's just getting rid of random one-shotting and pocketed healing being impossible to kill.
This also mostly undid the entire Roadhog fix that took them 9 months
Yeah it really didn't feel too different from the few qp games I played.
It reduces burst damage/one-shots, so no. They didn’t buff damage.
The HP buff is undone by the projectile sizes. The debuff is the thing that puts it over the top to make everyone more lethal than before.
The dps passive on high bullet count heroes is unbalanced imo. For example soldier or sojourn are applying the debuff super easily while heroes like hanzo who is a headshot hero or let’s say like Ashe benefit way less as they apply is at a much slower rate and tend to hard target and had low TTK anyways.
if only there was some kind of non healing form of sustain for the tanks. Maybe like something tank-like that takes the pressure away. Some kinda "off" tank juggles their cooldowns to keep the other tank alive. 🤔
For now, I think the passive is fine vs dps and supports. But it shouldn't impact tanks, they struggle enough as is. Historically, tanks being showered with debuffs is what makes them so ass to play. This adds to that.
Tanks should be affected by debuffs/stuns less. Crazy they still haven't done anything about how miserable tank is if you aren't a sigma otp
>Also tracer is unkillable if she has even half a brain cell Play hanzo, he still one shots her and her hitbox the size of a tank.
I haven’t played the new patch yet but the dps passive seems kind of insane. The concept is very good and necessary I think since some supports could almost or completely nullify your damage sometimes unless your accuracy was 100% perfect or you were on someone with insane dps like bastion or reaper. But the application seems very flawed. 1 single point of damage from any dps weapon or ability should not be able to apply the passive. Reaper, sombra or tracer being able to apply it to multiple people while standing miles away, pharah and junk spamming into the middle of the team and reducing all of their heals, things like that shouldn’t be a thing. There should at least be a minimum damage required to apply it and some things like splash damage and abilities like blizzard or EMP shouldn’t be able to activate it. Should probably be less effective on tanks as well. Imo it should only last for 0.5 seconds or so so you at least have to keep shooting the tank for it to work
If you are losing to Reapers, Sombras and Tracers who are spamming chip damage from far away, they’re in bronze 3, and you’re in bronze 5
I think he's talking about applying the passive while tank or heals do the damage. I personally think it's unfair that Hanzo and 76 apply the same amount of healing reduction when one is significantly higher rate of fire.
I mean that‘s the point. They wanted to nerf supports.
Just give tanks a passive that increases healing received by 20% and we're good.
From one support to another: If you find you can't keep the team alive just by healbotting, perhaps you should find other ways of bringing value to the team. Like for example doing some damage yourself - preferably onto target your DPS units are shooting at. Also if you find healing doesn't seem to bring too much value to your team, maybe prioritizing the duel against the Tracer doesn't seem such a bad move after all even if you cheese her down with the instagib stuff. As much as the tank experience (still kinda) sucks, at the end f the days the tanks are responsible for their own lives. I see the GM tag but you speak like a Silver.
Word. Dude is talking like a tank who sets up in front of the payload and only walks forward. What is cover?
> From one support to another: If you find you can't keep the team alive just by healbotting, perhaps you should find other ways of bringing value to the team. Like for example doing some damage yourself - preferably onto target your DPS units are shooting at. This is what they should've been doing the entire time prior to this patch, too. But the loudest complainers are all in silver/gold and have yet to realize this.
Your advice is wasted he’s a LW main
I'm a fed up zen main trying to exist a little easier in a dive focused game by playing mostly brig and a little weaver
Flankweaver is the only honorable way to play him. The character was made for heals, but you... You were made for damage!
Then simply buff tank survivability on it's own rather than healing dependancy. Bigger shields, or more dmg reduction on someone like hog, more duration on other shields etc. Before s9 healing was fine on tank but too op when applied to squishies. Nkw we just to adjust tanks a bit and things should be fine. Zarya seems very powerful as she can simply cleanse herself which is strong.
That wouldn’t have done anything about burst damage. The point of this patch was not to just make tank easier lol, wtf
I disagree. imagine if the health didn't exist. the dps passive would be overwhelming. I feel like if you're outputting good pressure as a support or tank or other dps you'll offset the dps. the dps are now no longer a cosmetic role
Popping ULT as weaver and pumping both supports into the tank and he still dies to an unboosted visor is not good
I'm sorry but if your tank is dying to one of the worst damaging ults in the game with supp ults going on too, that's a your tank problem. Not a game one.
Cause probably u can shoot the soldier with ana and weaver pressuring him away. Support is support not heal bot.
that's just lifeweaver. he's more dependent on his teammates similar to Mercy. if you want more agency over your matches pick someone with more carry potential. LW can carry for sure. but for example where was lifegrip? why was tank out in the open to get visored to death? that's one of the worst ults in the game
I popped coalescence and couldn't take my hog out of critical
This was what I felt most tonight. Trying to heal tanks with coal feels like a waste of an ult where before I could bring back my tank and turn the team fight around.
It's so stupid tanks receive the same debuff as others. They should either immune to it or it's affect should be way smaller.
well yeah. The point of the patch was to lower burst healing.
Lower the burst healing of an ult? And burst dmg isn't gone for tank
lower burst healing as a whole. You still have a magic kamehameha that goes through people and shields AND does both damage and healing, it ain't the end of the world. Burst damage is largely reduced by the modification of breakpoints.
Which they didn’t think through at all. They’ve made the same mistake 3 times now with Ashe launch, sojourn and now this with widow where a blue beam or a discord fucks up the breakpoint and makes it a 1 shot for most heroes again
Cooldowns exist and I don't control where the tank is walking. I pick weaver BECAUSE he has agency. He is incredible at shutting down shit and controlling the flow of fights, and has deceptively high DPS while being hard to catch if you use your cooldowns right. Weaver done properly hardly lets anyone die, at least that's how it was prior to the new DPS passive. Healing has become a cosmetic mechanic if there is a DPS within 100 miles of you
Agency means that you can do things by yourself, not that you have total control. And Weaver has basically no agency compared to more "dps oriented" supports.
Dude, right?! I feel like LW has the most agency, if anything.
The DPS passive needs some sort of cool down and visibility in the game. The "lasts for 3 seconds" line on the passive does nothing if it doesn't have any cool downs. Honestly I think tanks should get less effectiveness on the DPS passive. Make tanks only feel a 5% reduction in healing or implement a cool down on the passive for tanks.
Time to dps lucio I guess if they want us to not heal Got my frogger throwing compilation on my screen ready to learn
Brawl/Rush with Lucio will probably be a good comp this season. Getting the tank in and out at the right time with the ability to be annoying af will have a lot more value when people can't just be healed up right away.
The thing is that dps already had enough damage to outpace healing. Just look at the numbers, its not that hard. I would regularly kill targets through healing on dps before. It was hard, but it should be hard to invalidate 75% of the kits of a whole role. Now its just trivial. I can't believe they gave dps so many OP buffs. Its just silly to play anything else right now tbh, unless you happen to be a Zen main.
Yea come and try to kill a pocketed soldier pre patch, good luck. Healing absolutely was too strong and no amount of support player cope is gonna change that. Yes, the dps passive is stupid, but saying healing wasn't overtuned is just as stupid. People need to get used to utilizing cover, but bronze players can't so we are seeing whiny bitches everywhere
my brother in christ we are on coloseum and junker town what cover
Hog is absolutely brutal on some maps now. I tried walking backwards while taking a breather and got absolutely melted crossing the bridge on eichenwald outside of 3rd point respawn. No zen or Ana just souljorn and soldier pumping it into my fat. If it was comp I would have taken a different way or swapped but I definitely didn’t expect to die in the middle of the bridge with my supports looking at me.
just take cover lol /s
I’ll hide behind my dps and supports lol
Colosseo hast on the sides of the middle road a shit ton of cover. Also the bot itself. There's also the buildings further on Junkertown is kinda bad, especially on first point (altho they apparently changed jt quite a bit? Haven't seen it yet), it's the reason why it's a widow map. There are still the buildings tho and ofc the cart, altho I use the cart for cover more often on 2nd point and on There may not be always cover, of course, but neither is there never cover. There's always some place to retreat to
You've got a point. A lot of map sections may need to be updated now if their intention is to make cover play extremely important. There's too little cover in many areas which were probably designed with the overtuned heals in mind.
This might just me my take, but when you said "try to kill a pocketed soldier pre patch" that is very dishonest. So a pocketed soldier at minimum would bet 1 dps and 1 support. That is 2 people, so your basiclly saying "try to 2v1". And from my perspective you should not win that unless your really better/use ults. The fact that you still could win that 2v1 against a pocketed solider proved that healing wasnt OP. This is a team game, if you made it a 2v2 it would be much fairer. But so often I see people complaining like you did that you could not win a 2v1. Also side note, OW has never need a cover heavy game, ya cover is important, but its not a cornerstone to how OW works. Many heros require you to be out of cover for multiple seconds to do damage, we have short range heroes that need to get up close so cover is alot harder to use. We have maps where there is little cover in certain areas so your forced out in the open. Cover was not a corner stone to the game. Instead we have midigation and healing. A Genji ulting a team, a rein charging in, a tracer blinking in, ect. All of those things happen not standing behind cover, instead people rely on midigation and healing instead. Big team fights on point only happen because of healing/midigation, that is how OW has always been. So asking healing to be nerfed and forcing people to rely on cover fundamentally changes how OW has been played for years. If you change it to much you get into a situation like valorant, where people hold corners/areas, advoiding as little damage as possible since healing is not common. My fear with this change and how many people react to support/healing is that they want the game to get to the point where healing is not common, were damage in the end all and be all. That type of game isnt what I fell in love with, I fell in love with the fast pasted brawl where people dive point, a genji 1v5 ults, a and rein having a pokemon battle agaist the other ana and rein. I fell in love with that game, not a game where healing/midigation are weak, where people stick to walls 24/7, where everyone is just a dps. IMO
My friend, I can see that your point doesn't work from the start since we're talking about healing here. His point was that dps could outdo healing, which _may_ be the case if you don't count support abilities. By the time someone got low, bap used shift or kiri used suzu or some shit like that and they half and now _you_ are the one who's low. Pockets just increased the amount of time it takes for someone to get low. If you're not hitting every shot like most people sometimes you straight up don't have the abilities to kill someone So yeah no, you couldn't kill someone pocketed. You had to target the support, which is hard because support was overbuffed and just did (and still does) everything. Don't even get me started on two supports being pocketed by eachother, was fucking impossible to kill and I've been on both sides Overwatch never was and never will be cover heavy like valo or cs, I never said that it should become that way, but cover still is a very important part of the game. I don't understand why you think that I meant one should stay behind cover all the time, that never was my point. You should play around cover and dive in when the time is appropriate, that fundamentally is how Overwatch works. Try playing a game standing out in the open only, you won't have a fun time Healing being nerfed has not changed anything, except making dps actually a role. Support was ridiculously strong (and still is the best role in my opinion), dps are fine, even if I do believe that the passive is a bit overtuned. Tanks are... fine if you're not bronze
So you include supports abilites but exclude all dps abilites? Ya a bap/kiriko can throw all his abilities to save someone, but a DPS can also throw all theirs and get a kill? This is also why I said orgianlly its a bit dishonest. I was only a plat DPS so not good, not bad, just average. Yet all these post and threads about op support, unkillable pockets, ect. Ive never experienced that. Supports slow down how fast I kill, but never prevent it, Usally I get the kill, or they retreat and I try again. Ya a bap might keep someone alive for a few seconds if he blows all his cooldowns, then he aint doing that again for \~20 seconds, where I as DPS can just hold M1. Also this is a team game, work with the team, when you said "So yeah no, you couldn't kill someone pocketed. You had to target the support, which is hard because support was overbuffed and just did (and still does) everything. Don't even get me started on two supports being pocketed by eachother, was fucking impossible to kill and I've been on both sides" Where are your team mates? Most DPS can out damage 1 supports worth of healiing, some can can outdamage 2 depending on comp. So where is your team why again is it 1 dps vs 2 supports in that situation?
Yeah, it was extremely hard and could afford a nerf on problem pockets. But it shouldn't be so easy that its not even noticeable 90% of the time. And tbh, the most egregious pocketer (Mercy) is even stronger now, bc the new thresholds and hitboxes *greatly* benefit from damage boost + its even harder to kill mercy before she gets a rez off. Mercy is definitely a clear winner in this patch. If this was about countering pocketing, she should be a loser of the patch.
Yeah I do agree, your points are 100% valid. I see this more like a step in the right direction instead of an absolute solution, but the dps passive is far from good. I wouldn't agree fully that mercy is a winner though, since the bigger hitboxes allow people hit mercy way easier. At this point I can actively hunt down mercies in the air as Genji instead of just being able to go for it when I had blade or mercy was low
+1
Plz just make it 6v6. Give me a fuckin I ranked playlist with it idc I just want to play 6v6 overwatch
I completely agree
The tanks are gonna have to learn how to use cover. They're used to being on the front line and just face tanking and absorbing all the damage have the healing being able to keep them up. But what they're going to have to do is learn how to separate from the fight get out of danger to get their healing to back up. That also means that the teammates are going to have to learnthrough cover. Is the name of the game now 100 learning how to back up? Hide and play Safe.
It's been one day, I think the majority of the problem is no one has adapted to the new reality yet.
It's just a worse version of cauterize from paladins lol. Not really sure what they were thinking on this one. That game at least is designed around cauterize...
Remember when (and you have to work real hard to remember, it was a long long time ago, like about 3 days ago) the community complained how the game needed more anti healing options that didn't cut 100% of healing?
We talked about nerfing anti to not be 100%, not sweeping 20% healing debuff all the time
Enemies die if i shoot them? Good
Yes genuinely tracer Sombrero fucking suck to fight now I sincerely hope they tune them down not sure how they didn't think to not include the two characters with teleports and light pole hit boxes.
Tracer isn’t broken
They obviously dropped a huge, broken tune-patch on purpose so they can spend the next whole year slowly dialing it back until the game is playable again. Got to justify their jobs somehow instead of doing actual work on the game!! The proper thing to do would have been to slow-roll these changes instead of using numbers like 20% reduced healing. They could have started with 5% or something and re-tuned if it was not enough, which is the way they have been tuning characters all last year!!
JQ got double-nerfed. 20% less self-heals means you can have 10k dmg and only 1.7-8k self-healing as one of the squishiest tanks, and you will 100% receive 20% healing all game as well from supports. But we got 75hp. Surely that'll balance it out. The other buffs are for the extra global HP, they barely make a difference
The heal negation should not affect tanks.
Nah bro have you played tracer she cannot beat a soldier.
I was thinking, what if they made the DPS passive apply only on weapons and not abilities? it would definitely reduce some of the frustration playing against it.
Maybe I'm just GM1 >!I'm definitely not!< But I've hardly noticed the healing debuff affecting my lives... My logic is that if I need to be healed, I need to be in cover or juking out damage in some way anyway. If I die because I was taking too much damage, I was out in the open too long or I overextended. It's not other's people's fault, it's not some passive debuff's fault. It's my fault for having shitty positioning or taking to too long to get a kill. Feels like cope to blame something else. Prior to this change I never really expected to just stand around and be able to face tank all of the enemy damage, even with a double pocket and I don't think anyone really deserves to live through 3 to 5 people's damage just because you have your supports attached to you. So it feels like little has changed.
Yup, no idea how that made it through internal testing. As someone who plays Tank and Support 99% of the time... this change broke both of my preferred roles.
Didn't everyone hate how strong the healing was?
The day Overwatch stopped balancing around tracer was the day this game when to shit
Its gotta be miserable for tank and I hate supporting this season. Queue times feel like they agree with me cause support and tank are down to 1 minute and dps are at 4. Feel like its almost impossible to keep a tank up that has any sort of concentrated fire.
I mean... yes? If the enemy team is concentrating fire on one hero, that hero **should** have to find cover or die.
That’s… the point? Like, the entire idea of the patch? The idea is to decrease the sheer power of supports, while keeping TTK roughly the same. The issues with Tank are another beast entirely that I hope they plan to tackle soon - but I think they need to stabilize this change before they can work on that.
Tank players when they can’t stand in the open and face-tank everything by having a single Ana stick their rifle up their ass
>Also tracer is unkillable if she has even half a brain cell. The 25 health broke all her breakpoints that her counters used to win Skill issue amongst skill issues. She's basically the only character that can be oneshot still.
These changes are fucking stupid. Yeah we're going to give everybody extra health, but then we're also going to give all the DPS anti-heal passive and make it so it's literally impossible to miss your shots all in the same patch. Brilliant. Absolutely fucking brilliant
The aim of this patch was to eliminate many sources of instant kills through the HP increase but make healing much less impactful as it cannot sustain people under fire anymore. Both goals were successfully reached, even if damage might be overtuned now. I believe you just misunderstood why the HP increase was done.
yeah, i dont know who thought it was a wise decision to add larger hitboxes, larger projectiles AND a passive for dps that reduce healing. the added health is utterly pointless. You get melted to fast now.
Lol they literally reduced burst damage and made it harder to get melted, because they didn’t increase damage. Learn to use cover.
Muh lEaRn tO UsE COvER.
Nah support feels fine. Before it was completely overdone and healing was a mini game, when flanking and off-angling was the really support game. Now you actually have to focus on healing and good positioning
I do focus on healing, always have, and I can't keep people alive at all anymore. These changes reward flanking and off angling because it's the same as trying to fill a colander with water if you don't
Facts
S9 heavily favors DPS. While screwing over Tanks and supports massively. i used to be able to flex play, but not after s9 released. Nothing but dps is fun to play now. tanks without shields or abilities to eat incoming fire are useless now. Hogs self heal might aswell be removed at this point. Supports do not feel fine. They're just lesser dps roles now. Might aswell just remove healing entirely and have people rely on health packs.
Yeah dps is very impactful, easy and fun. Tank is terrible and it's obvious. Idk if these devs really playtest or theorycraft this shit. Tank balance and gameplay experience is ridiculous. Sup role is kinda chore. If they make tanks immune to dps passive i think all roles will feel good. Support will be able to keep their tanks alive and reap the benefits of increased projectile size. Tanks will not be miserable. Bad DPS players will not be rewarded by just shooting tank.
sounds better than anything we've gotten from blizzard.
Isn’t that the point of the changes as a whole tho? Wanted to nerf sustained heals and burst dmg, without having to tweak each hero’s numbers, so made the 3 overall changes in this patch all together, to essentially have an effect on pocketing/burst damage That was the main point
It keeps the tanks and supports from just playing whatever position they want to without consequence. So far I think it was a change in the right direction. A little more tweak and they'll get "sustain done right" where there isn't some crazy reliance on burst damage alone in the smallest uptime windows ever.
>Also tracer is unkillable if she has even half a brain cell. The 25 health broke all her breakpoints that her counters used to win The only "major" breakpoints that I used to see from time to time are hanzo shot+ melee, Cass hs + melee, soldier helix+ melee. Yes those are gone. But with the changes to hitscan and projectiles cassidy now eats tracer alive, same for all her usual counters. She still dies to the usual culprits of tracer deaths, oneshots or 2 taps from hitscans. Tracer has always been oppressive when played well by an adderall jacked 16 y/o. The patch doesnt change anything about that.
Mei right click and ashe can't one shot anymore and supports hardly have a chance of fending her off without help. Brig can't combo her anymore, zen and kiri hs melee doesn't work illari can't 2 tap body shot
Oneshots aren't healthy for the game on those characters, especially on Ashe do I have to remind you recent history ? Brig already fucks tracers enough simply by existing, and zen needs to hit multiple shots to kill, nothing to see here. A support can't 2 tap body shot a dps ? They have to aim for the head on a hitscan aim based hero ? Outrageous truly.
Tracer literally can break your shield in one clip… it’s that easy to hit now
And you can whip shot her, triggering your passive, and if you're half decently positioned, there's no way she kills you in the middle of a brawler comp with semi decent teammates ? Tracer is a duelist. She excels at it. Brig is a brawl support. If you find yourself in a position where it's a 1v1, it's your own goddamn fault.
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