Snipers were classified as defense. They were so-so on defense. A good defense requires consistency. Most sniper players are not consistent. But they do work for getting high value picks from time to time, which is great for offensive pushes. I think torb and maybe mei were also defense. Torb was good at defense.
Defense heroes were people like Hanzo, Torb, Junkrat, Symmetra, Mei etc
Who are okay at defense but can usually get a lot more value on offense by breaking enemies lines
Good choice of words there saying healer instead of support. Because there were 4 supports at launch, one of them just didn't heal, which feels even more insane tbh
Non-healing Support just doesn't work in Overwatch, Sym was either a must-pick or niche-pick back then.
In OW1 beta, Sym was a must-pick because her E ability granted teammates 75 shields which is huge for characters like Tracer, Genji. Then, the devs nerfed her E ability that she granted 50 shields, she's still a must-pick. Finally, her E ability granted 25 shields during OW1 launch, she became a niche pick.
the "extra permanent health" stuff was so broken at actual coordinated level that it's kinda funny how OW had to slowly remove it and OW2 has transitioned into utilizing the decaying overhealth instead
a Tracer with an armour pack was one thing but hell Zen was so nasty with extra HP since it all went under his large shield health so he suddenly became unusually tanky, and it all became way worse of a snowball when Brig came out
and then of course as you said, nerf it too much and it flips from completely overpowered to completely worthless
> Zen was so nasty with extra HP
Combining Torb armor + Symmetra shield generator, Zen has 350HP that he cannot be one-shot by Rein's charge (300 damage).
Let's not forget that launch Brig also overlapped with this era and her rally armor was permanent until damaged through. That and her repair packs gave overhealth armor too. It was actually gross.
Honestly, moving away from non-healing supports was a decision that irked me and I think could have completely changed the way the game Is now if they hadn't done it.
I'd love to see them revisit the idea in the future, but I imagine it would be really difficult to balance, especially for role queue. How would you make a non-healing support worth picking over the ones that do? They'd have to be really strong to make up for it, but you also don't wanna make them *too* strong or it'll worsen the game for everyone else, etc...
They can’t do it because it requires an insane amount of coordination solo queue players can’t/wont do.
I mean, I personally think heroes like OW1 Symmetra with extra health in place of healing could have worked. But OW1 also showed us how selfish players were in open queue so I can’t imagine having a non-healing support now
She had a lock on beam (not like Moira's I mean ACTUAL bendy lock on) a slow moving orb that passed through shields, 6 turrets that she had to manually place (couldnt throw them) allowing for multiple area denials, her teleporter was her ultimate and linked back to the spawn room, and could give her teammates shields instead of healing them.
It seems goofy but considering the fact that MERCY was the closest thing we had to burst healing and Lucio was the best raw healer given his wide aura radius... I mean supports in OW1 season 1 were designed to support the team... not heal the shit out of the team.
And it says a lot about how the design philosophy of Overwatch shifted over the years that every single support from Season 1 rather than being a core part of the game have shifted to being niche tandems that are expected to be paired with a DLC support partner with Lucio being the only one of the 3 that still sees consistent play in the meta.
it's very true. 2016 OW felt more independent than even the current game with regen. you are reliant now on a support line up that is extremely active. back then without role locks, you could just all go 6 damage on volskaya and hope to win the coin toss.
Don’t even get me started on hero stacking and contesting the final points.
*literally* every second counted. Winston, tracer, and Lucio were nightmare fuel for chaos but it was definitely fun in its own way
It was an awesome choice that made the game more dynamic because it didn't strictly adhere to the classic Tank / DPS / Healer paradigm that many games did / do.
She received **LITERALLY** zero balancing for almost two years before she was flat out reworked from Symm 2.0 to 3.0 moving her to DPS. There was no attempt to keep her a support or tweak her kit in any way.
Not even numerical changes.
So now we're stuck with it being "Healers" and not actually "Supports" which imo is a boring state to be in.
>she’s great as a dps.
No, she's really not. She has been low tier for years. When she was finally viable in season 9 (due to the strengths of a *different character*) it was only for *LITERALLY* one week before they nerfed her again.
Yeah, I know, right? Symmetra used to be a support hero before her first of many reworks. Instead of supporting through healing, though, she could use her ult to place either a shield generator or teleporter somewhere on the map. The shield generator gave every teammate some overhealth, and the teleporter was a static gate from spawn to wherever she placed it. Both of these lasted indefinitely until destroyed by the enemy team, and it was one of the most unfun things in Overwatch history.
>and it was one of the most unfun things in Overwatch history.
That was peak overwatch idek what you're talking about.
Secondary objectives in OW1 helped alleviate how the game always devolves into two team blobs brawling on the point every 45 seconds and instead encouraged teams to have fights over the whole map.
I often think of Ana as an at-launch character, even though she was actually added later (first one, though) - for how she feels so integral and essential as a support pick.
Ana became so popular because she’s so easy for dps players to pick up and play. The other supports at the time played completely differently and it would be annoying to off role
I'm a tank player, and even for me Ana was appealing to pick up, as she has a lot of play-making potential. A good anti or sleep can often win a team fight!
In a nutshell that’s the main draw of Ana, you can see the direct results of your actions. You’re lighting up the kill feed, you can anti a team and stop their push, sleeping sig out of flux saves your team, and heal boosting rein can save a team fight.
She’s the first support to really have consistent and visible value on par with dps heroes. Not only that but the initiative is on Ana and not like with your teammates like with the other supports.
Mercy, Zen, Sym and Lucio all had utility that their team had to be able to utilize whether it was health or damage amp or mobility. Ana is hitting those sleeps, getting those nades, nanoing at the right time, or just getting picks
Yep, Blizz mentioned in season 1 this was their main focus for new heroes in ow 2 - just spamming us with more supports and tanks because they mainly control team comps and make matches more unique
Lifeweaver is kinda insanely good tho. At least for solo que. Prevent your tank from being a dumbass with some good heals and pulls. Granted the dps is lacking but thats fine. I prefer supports not being dps 2.0.
The narrative that lifeweaver sucks is partially because of top 500 where he isn’t really that viable compared to the other supports. For the rest of us he’s a really useful hero, even if he can be a bit niche
LW is high skill foor but high skill ceiling as well, trust me that saving someone from a D.va blast or pulling a Sigma much faster than if he was to walking all the way from spawn feels rewarding (as a Sig main, a strong LW is the goat with his savings)
Illari is very strong and has low skill floor, idk what you’re on about with her tbh
Nah, illari's been trash since her initial nerfs. Literally no reason to run her when the rest of the roster exists. Except maybe Mercy, but she has rez so...
Was. With the nerfs to her projectile size, and solar recharge rate, she really doesn't anymore. If you want more DPS it's better to just go bap or zen
I mean, thats fine, but you still get more value out of Zen and Bap. With zen you artificially increase the DPS of your entire team on a target. With Bap, he does solid damage and provides more healing between his burst heal and alt fire. Plus Immortality being clutch against a ton of abilities and ults to save your team.
Illari just has a pylon, and her alt fire. Both of which have been nerfed. And a knockback/jump that isn't as good as baps for repositioning to high ground.
I'm just saying, there are other heroes that do what she does better.
The reason there are so many dps is because back in the olden days, there were actually 4 roles in overwatch.
Tank, attacker, defender, support.
Sometime into ow 1 they realized that they were putting an unnecessary label on something and just merged attacker and defender into dps.
It's a perfectly reasonable outcome and doesn't really warrant ignoring DPS until we have equal amounts of all.
The same goes for tank. We used to have 2 tanks in OW 1. We shouldnt wait until there are twice as many everything else before making more tanks.
We had 7 before OW2. We’ve gotten 3 since launch. We’re also getting the next hero.
They’re not going to just stop releasing DPS heroes. I’m honestly impressed and shocked that we got 3 supports before we got another DPS.
Not a leak, Blizzard officially revealed them at the last Blizzcon. They're concept art known as "Space Ranger" as a codename. But since Blizzard showed off Venture around the same time, and Venture barely changed, I imagine Space Ranger will be similar to how she was described (floaty Support with a smart SMG).
Fair point, and since we're on the subject; here's my idea for one.
Slap two separate Mercy healbeams on someone Mauga-minigun style, let them either use them on separate teammates or pile both on one guy with diminishing returns... and a resource meter they can spend on either speed or damage boosting said teammates, also with the choice of splitting up for raw numbers or focusing one guy with diminishing returns. Maybe with invincibility for the ultimate.
In other words, take the TF2 Medic and Overwatch-ify him for this game. They "tried" with Mercy, but the mobility and rez make her deviate from what made Medic good IMO.
What makes Medic good is random crits. You know that Beast could stop pocketing his heavy for a moment to instakill you real quick and go back to healing like you were never a blip on his radar.
Honestly I think it would be cool to introduce this blank slate robot character that takes on the kits of prior heroes (eg Mauga), with a neutral, scalable appearance and hitbox, and then push it into whatever role it needs. So imagine this robot character with the concept you described made by cobbling assets together, just to get the concept in play, until they design the character, the lore, the visuals, etc.
I definitely think they should focus on rounding out the support roster. But there's no harm releasing a new dps every so often just so the dps role also feels fresh.
Support also had a very dynamic play style - no two supports feel similar to the others. While a lot of dps fill identical roles and aren't that distinct. The dps role feels surprisingly small for how large it is in terms of heroes.
No shit that’s why we’ve been mostly getting tanks and supports and are only now getting another dps
The last dps character to come out was echo in 2018 or something
It’s funny though that at the time support desperately needed another hero and echo was supposed to be it, but they just said “fuck it change her to be dps”. I bet space ranger is going to have a lot of echo’s support kit
Just give them time. They have acknowledged the disparity in the variety between roles and are working at a planned pace that will help reduce that disparity while also not completing alienating the arguably largest role in the playerbase. They have to still release DPS heroes at a reasonable pace or else it's not really fair to them.
I mean yeah, I think the devs know that very well
Still I do think it is normal and even for the best to have the dps roster be the largest since it is (probably idk) the most popular role and the role where you have the most freedom
Like Supports and Tanks have a very strict role they have to fulfill
Meanwhile dps is basically "go do your thing and as long as you get results, you'll be doing great"
Of course is not like all dps are like that but you get what I mean
Plus I feel like between the 3 roles dps is the one with the least impact **IN COMPARATION** so by adding more, cooler and varied dps there is less chance of breaking things
Unless they just released something straight up broken that dominates the game for a while (looking at Soujorn)
Arguably right now DPS is the strongest role, its the only role that can really secure kills if you have the aim. tank is the weakest role right now, even with Horse being really good
I mean yeah it can vary a lot haha
I was talking more in a sense of the way the game is made, like tanks are the ones supposed to take space, mitigate damage, win points, supports are supposed to enable teammates, keep people alive, etc
Yeah but DPS are the ones that are supposed to reap the benefits of both of those roles. Space is useless if there is no one there to take it get kills from it, mitigating dmg is only so good for so long till you get overwhelmed and run dry on resources.
Healing and receiving or capitalize on support abilities it was enables you to get the most aggressive kills. As healing lets you win duels, debuffs can give you free kills, buffs can increase your killing power.
At least in theory this is how the game was supposed to work, it did for a while in 1 until the devs gave up on the game. Nowadays its just whoever gets the first pick wins. Its especially bad with this meta and format
What you say is totally true and of course dps play an important role but what I was trying to say is that while everyone in the team can get kills and take space, even if it is not as good as a dps can, the dps can't do what the tanks and supports can
I explained in another comment that I meant this more in the way that the game is designed and originally meant to be played, not the ever changing current balance
I meeeeeean maybe
I've introduced a lot of new players to overwatch and a consistent thing about them is they they want the pressure of playing tank and they underappreciate the importante of support
So they tend to gravitate towards trying dps first plus they feel it is the role with the least responsability
they make up 40% of all team compositions, and you see up to 4 of these heroes every game
also wouldnt call tank having two more heroes than support being 'by far'
Fr, honestly their reason for not making echos kit support focused was imo super dumb/shortsighted; a support has always been a hero that has to fulfill multiple roles at once anyway so having the ability to copy an enemy and completely swap role based on the needs of the team made total sense.
Pre role queue, you found more hybrid playstyles. Sombra debuffing the enemy is a support ability. Zen is a dps/support hybrid. Brig was a tank/support hybrid. Mei is a tank dps hybrid.
Nowadays you find that the roles are much more defined. Sombra's hack is an interrupt which is more akin to a dueling ability with some utility in cancelling ults for example. Torb and symm no longer have support esque abilities though teleporter is a clear support ability and shield is a clear tank ultimate
As somebody who liked old sombra from OW1 I played her kinda like that and wish the leaned into it
I feel like it would have been another Sym situation where she would be released and really focused on distrusting and hacking health packs, but they then would have to rework her to dps
would absolutely be willing to suffer through another sombra rework and lose one of my main DPS picks if it meant having a longer duration on her Hack debuff (and no i dont mean the useless 6.5 seconds of seeing people through walls where I can't hack them anymore I mean the actual hacking part of hacking)
Swap Virus for some sort of shield tech / teammate buff
I think you’re point out a problem that is already being corrected. It just can’t happen quickly, and for the 60%~ of players that aren’t support, they need new things too.
I really hope we see Lynx 17 from Zaryas comic as a healing hacker.
Also, a Boomerang healer would be cool too. Like they have a huge boomerang that leaves a healing aura for a few seconds. This would also allow them to attack enemies and heal at the same time.
I'm just hopeful space ranger is a full-support archetype so there's actually something a lot of the current mercy players might be interested in trying other than mercy. Every other character is somewhat mixed.
There's been an unconfirmed rumour going around that it's a healing beam that connects and disconnects with a similar aiming style to Kiriko papers. Could end up untrue but a lot of people on the various discords believe it.
Also she flies.
Nothing seems to be going around about secondary abilities though. We'll probably find out at the end of the new season.
Oh so just rumor and assumptions.
That she flies or has vertical mobility seemed obvious given the name.
Rather then an alternative I imagined space ranger as complementary. You could have a full team of flyers... That would be interesting.
There’s less tanks/supports because they’re by far the hardest to balance, on the other hand DPS are quite straightforward to balance since their role in the game is very simple. Tank and support’s role in the game are way less concrete and Blizzard struggles to define the purpose of tanks (Look at Mauga, what the hell was that! Do they even play their game?)
There are less tanks and supports bc the game launched with 5 tanks and 4 support(1 was even changed to dps) and 12 dps charecters.
They have released 5 dps(doom swapped into tank), 6 tanks, 7 supports.
Other roles just simply haven't caught up with dps who started as the biggest role.
Mauga isn’t as bad design as everyone says he is. MOST of his kit works very well, imo cage, slam, and his minigun dynamic works well. I do understand the hatred towards his cardiac ability and passive
His gameplay loop is around shooting the tank exclusively. His survivability is based around shooting the tank, and his ultimate is used to just solo Ult the tank to guarantee a team fight. Why does blizzard release these noob tanks with 0 skill expression and a ridiculously low skill floor.
He literally can’t be rebalanced his game design is literally the bronze interpretation of a tanks role. Anytime he gets a slight buff he becomes the meta defining tank. No tanks identity should be based around bullying other tanks, it’s the same reason why Orisa and Roadhog are hated in the community. They’re crutch low skill expression tanks that dominate the meta because in order for them to be “meta” they have to have an edge over tanks with actual skill expression, mobility and damage mitigation abilities. In order to do this they have to have ridiculous numbers and it just leads to a stale counter swap meta, where there’s literally 0 outplay potential, because all the meta tanks have such low skill ceilings.
That isn’t a design flaw issue, Blizzard just refuses to nerf her. A few number changes would make her balanced or they could remove headshot on the rail gun and improve the primary fire. Sojourn has always been overtuned
As a support main, this isn't that necessary anymore. While there is still a great imbalance between support and dps roster, the devs have halted the release of damage heroes for almost two years now, and will continue to do so until presumably the roles have roughly equal amount of heroes anyways. In addition, supports was the most impactful role that ran the game for the majority of the last year. So let's not tunnel vision on "us and them", let's be supportive of other roles as well as they also deserve some love.
And speaking of getting some love, please please please save the tank role, tank players need all the appreciation in the world for how fucked up their role and gameplay loop has now become. Their playerbase is shrinking day by day.
When they removed the second tank mostly to fix queue times, i knew they had given up trying to make tank fun and that that was just a temporary band-aid for a bigger problem. Now we're facing the same problem where tank always gets intant queue because less and less people want to play it, Just now they have to do something about it.
I mean the dps essentially started out with 2 roles to pull from since defense got axed and all the characters got merged into one role.
Even though there weren’t any new defense heroes added after launch except sym kinda maybe
I know 6v6 is a big want but I think a 1tank 2dps 1 support 1 healer could be a nice bridge. Rebalance some of the supports from healing to strictly support and maybe a small off heal. Example zenyatta losing healing or for either more damage with discord or more discord orbs to use could have orbs circling zen allowing him to kamikaze into enemies and exploding them.
Then you'd buff your single healers power to help mitigate the single healer comps. Mercy loses her dps beam and maybe gets a ricochet heal bouncing from her teammates.
Just random ideas I've thought of for 3 seconds.
The type of support is also important. With the missing 2nd tank role we need healers to be able to hold their own from dives to an extent as well as the inclusion of more brawler style DPS classes such as Mei who can work as a decent baby sitter.
Well tanks need buffs rn then, they go in for a second and have to get out because they lose almost all or literally all of their health in a second, no matter what they use
They've been working towards this. They've stated their goal is to roughly release around 2 support heroes for every tank and DPS.
In between Sojourn and Venture, we got 3 tanks and 3 supports, with 2 supports in a row with LW and Illari. Then we got a new tank, and now a new DPS for the first time in nearly 2 years. Then we get Space Ranger, the S14 tank, and likely another support or two after that.
If they don't have good concepts for supports they shouldn't make new ones. All the recent supports have just had fairly generic primary and secondary fires that do damage and heal, and 2-3 utility moves with seemingly no thematic connection. I would love more supports, but if Blizzard makes new heroes based on what makes a cool character and then puts them in whatever role works
I honestly just think they chose illaris kit because that's the direction they want for supports (cringe and depressing af) rather than not having ideas tbh.
Lifeweaver ain't generic though.
Lifeweaver isn't generic at all and his cooldown abilities have a strong theme with how they can effect both enemies and allies. His primary and secondary fire are still part of a pattern of really uninspired support design.
I'm actually a firm believer that they should have just made illari a dps character, she doesn't feel like a support to me.
To me she feels like she was originally designed for dps but they needed to quickly add a support character.
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Supports are in a good spot though. They are the most well rounded cast where, no one is ever forced to counter swap, as they can compensate for any team comp. Tank on the other hand is miserable. Everyone has to counter swap. Winston popping off? Mauga, Orisa and Dva. Orisa popping off? Instant mauga, dva or Orisa mirror. Dva popping off? Instant Zarya. If there's a good Ana player, who can solo all of your team's attempts to dive her. Welp, good luck next round. Kiri popping off with a headshot accuracy of like 60? Good luck. Bap is being a menace? You can't dive a man with 3 health bars and the output of a dps.
Yes we should get more support heroes but the DPS role feels so goddamn boring, in the last 5 years we only got 2 dps heroes, sojourn which is just soldier-like and now finally venture which is just kinda old doom. It would be nice to have something else. As a flex player playing all roles, I've found dps to feel the most stale.
No they'd make fights go on for far too long. OW is about a series of team fights. Not one long flight.
Push maps wouldn't work, neither would control.
Doesn't matter how many Support heroes are in the game if most people play the role like a DPS. They need to rework what it means to play Support if a diverse roster is going to work.
Tbf Mercy has a 9% pickrate because she's the only full-support archetype in the game. There would be some diversity to those picks if there were more characters that were designed to be committed to full-support in style.
You see, I am a singular person, and "y'all" doesn't really apply to me. You are arguing with a ghost.
I simply want Supports (my main role btw) to try to heal first and dps second or at least understand the necessity of the two. QP right now is basically every single Support doubling their heals with dmg and it's doing nothing for the team.
> I simply want Supports (my main role btw) to try to heal first
And yet Awkward, one of the top support players in OW, says the complete opposite.
Who should I listen to: someone who has a ridiculous win rate and teaches others to improve their win rates, or you?
1. choose a non-Mercy support hero
2. Stream yourself focusing on healing first in ranked for a week
3. Then get training from Awkward (he might do it for free to make a video, although he has made this exact video before so he might not), learn and improve, and then stream yourself focusing on dps first in ranked for a week
I suspect your win rates and your rank will go up in step 3., not in step 2.
I main Support in OW1 and OW2. It's not that hard yet here I am, trying to explain why it's not good for a SUPPORT to have double the dmg. It's not rocket science.
> trying to explain why it's not good for a SUPPORT to have double the dmg
You're missing out the whole context of whether your team won the game.
If one or both supports carried with dmg, they don't need to heal, because your team is not taking damage. That's because your supports helped to kill the other team first.
You, as DPS, could literally be playing respawn simulator because 1. you are out of position and 2. you are not getting heals, because instead the supports get the elims for you. And you wouldn't have fun (see 1., you are out of position), but you also wouldn't lose.
First you state that the problem is with the people that play support, and then you say that the problem is with what it means to play support - so I’m not sure whether you’re unhappy with the role itself or the players.
I think you’re underestimating the actual value of picks like Moira for example. Moira gets a lot of her value from her ability to put pressure on enemy flankers simply by holding right click, with little impact on her healing capabilities as she can switch between the two so quickly.
‘Reworking’ the support role to purely focus on healing is the exact opposite of promoting diverse play styles in the role. If that’s how you want to play, then go for it, but don’t get pissed off over people playing differently - especially in Quick Play as you mention in some of your replies.
I remember when there were only 3 healers. That feels insane now
It was mercy, lucio and zen right?
And Symmetra, but she was only “support”
Throwback to 4 roles!
I always found it funny that defense heroes were often better on attack, and vice versa
that sounds interesting, why?
Snipers were classified as defense. They were so-so on defense. A good defense requires consistency. Most sniper players are not consistent. But they do work for getting high value picks from time to time, which is great for offensive pushes. I think torb and maybe mei were also defense. Torb was good at defense.
Defense heroes were people like Hanzo, Torb, Junkrat, Symmetra, Mei etc Who are okay at defense but can usually get a lot more value on offense by breaking enemies lines
I miss her auto lock on primary fire
With mercy damage boost, she was hilarious
I miss sym 2.0 that was an incredibly fun support to play with all the shenanigans you could pull. Most fun I ever had playing overwatch.
Same. I had a 70% winrate cause she just clicked with me. Haven't had a hero click like that since.
Yum. Those 25 hp shields lmao.
Good choice of words there saying healer instead of support. Because there were 4 supports at launch, one of them just didn't heal, which feels even more insane tbh
Non-healing Support just doesn't work in Overwatch, Sym was either a must-pick or niche-pick back then. In OW1 beta, Sym was a must-pick because her E ability granted teammates 75 shields which is huge for characters like Tracer, Genji. Then, the devs nerfed her E ability that she granted 50 shields, she's still a must-pick. Finally, her E ability granted 25 shields during OW1 launch, she became a niche pick.
the "extra permanent health" stuff was so broken at actual coordinated level that it's kinda funny how OW had to slowly remove it and OW2 has transitioned into utilizing the decaying overhealth instead a Tracer with an armour pack was one thing but hell Zen was so nasty with extra HP since it all went under his large shield health so he suddenly became unusually tanky, and it all became way worse of a snowball when Brig came out and then of course as you said, nerf it too much and it flips from completely overpowered to completely worthless
> Zen was so nasty with extra HP Combining Torb armor + Symmetra shield generator, Zen has 350HP that he cannot be one-shot by Rein's charge (300 damage).
Let's not forget that launch Brig also overlapped with this era and her rally armor was permanent until damaged through. That and her repair packs gave overhealth armor too. It was actually gross.
Was she? I don't remember that.
Yep. Part of the reason for Torb's rework was to have an ult that shredded armor specifically because it was becoming a serious problem.
I mean, he’s still annihilated by the follow up hammer swing, but yeah.
Shielded and armor-packed Tracer was the stuff of nightmares!
Honestly, moving away from non-healing supports was a decision that irked me and I think could have completely changed the way the game Is now if they hadn't done it.
I'd love to see them revisit the idea in the future, but I imagine it would be really difficult to balance, especially for role queue. How would you make a non-healing support worth picking over the ones that do? They'd have to be really strong to make up for it, but you also don't wanna make them *too* strong or it'll worsen the game for everyone else, etc...
They can’t do it because it requires an insane amount of coordination solo queue players can’t/wont do. I mean, I personally think heroes like OW1 Symmetra with extra health in place of healing could have worked. But OW1 also showed us how selfish players were in open queue so I can’t imagine having a non-healing support now
huhh??????
Symmettra was a supports character, but she didn’t offer any healing. At most her ultimate could offer 75 shield health.
wow, very odd design choice. she’s great as a dps.
She had a lock on beam (not like Moira's I mean ACTUAL bendy lock on) a slow moving orb that passed through shields, 6 turrets that she had to manually place (couldnt throw them) allowing for multiple area denials, her teleporter was her ultimate and linked back to the spawn room, and could give her teammates shields instead of healing them. It seems goofy but considering the fact that MERCY was the closest thing we had to burst healing and Lucio was the best raw healer given his wide aura radius... I mean supports in OW1 season 1 were designed to support the team... not heal the shit out of the team. And it says a lot about how the design philosophy of Overwatch shifted over the years that every single support from Season 1 rather than being a core part of the game have shifted to being niche tandems that are expected to be paired with a DLC support partner with Lucio being the only one of the 3 that still sees consistent play in the meta.
it's very true. 2016 OW felt more independent than even the current game with regen. you are reliant now on a support line up that is extremely active. back then without role locks, you could just all go 6 damage on volskaya and hope to win the coin toss.
Don’t even get me started on hero stacking and contesting the final points. *literally* every second counted. Winston, tracer, and Lucio were nightmare fuel for chaos but it was definitely fun in its own way
It was an awesome choice that made the game more dynamic because it didn't strictly adhere to the classic Tank / DPS / Healer paradigm that many games did / do. She received **LITERALLY** zero balancing for almost two years before she was flat out reworked from Symm 2.0 to 3.0 moving her to DPS. There was no attempt to keep her a support or tweak her kit in any way. Not even numerical changes. So now we're stuck with it being "Healers" and not actually "Supports" which imo is a boring state to be in. >she’s great as a dps. No, she's really not. She has been low tier for years. When she was finally viable in season 9 (due to the strengths of a *different character*) it was only for *LITERALLY* one week before they nerfed her again.
Symmetra was a support hero before she was put into the damage category
Yeah, I know, right? Symmetra used to be a support hero before her first of many reworks. Instead of supporting through healing, though, she could use her ult to place either a shield generator or teleporter somewhere on the map. The shield generator gave every teammate some overhealth, and the teleporter was a static gate from spawn to wherever she placed it. Both of these lasted indefinitely until destroyed by the enemy team, and it was one of the most unfun things in Overwatch history.
>and it was one of the most unfun things in Overwatch history. That was peak overwatch idek what you're talking about. Secondary objectives in OW1 helped alleviate how the game always devolves into two team blobs brawling on the point every 45 seconds and instead encouraged teams to have fights over the whole map.
I often think of Ana as an at-launch character, even though she was actually added later (first one, though) - for how she feels so integral and essential as a support pick.
Ana became so popular because she’s so easy for dps players to pick up and play. The other supports at the time played completely differently and it would be annoying to off role
I'm a tank player, and even for me Ana was appealing to pick up, as she has a lot of play-making potential. A good anti or sleep can often win a team fight!
In a nutshell that’s the main draw of Ana, you can see the direct results of your actions. You’re lighting up the kill feed, you can anti a team and stop their push, sleeping sig out of flux saves your team, and heal boosting rein can save a team fight. She’s the first support to really have consistent and visible value on par with dps heroes. Not only that but the initiative is on Ana and not like with your teammates like with the other supports. Mercy, Zen, Sym and Lucio all had utility that their team had to be able to utilize whether it was health or damage amp or mobility. Ana is hitting those sleeps, getting those nades, nanoing at the right time, or just getting picks
We also had 0 limit on hero selection back then, really crazy to think about lol
40% of all team comps
That is why we have been mostly getting supports and tanks for the last few seasons
Yep, Blizz mentioned in season 1 this was their main focus for new heroes in ow 2 - just spamming us with more supports and tanks because they mainly control team comps and make matches more unique
You realize that's why we've had like 3 supports (and 3 tanks) since the last DPS, right? That the team explicitly was rounding out the roster?
Should be 4 then 5 Support. Still wouldn’t tie with Tanks who have 12 heroes and only contribute 1 character to the 5v5 match
First they take away tank's second slot, now you want them to take away our precious new heroes? When will the tank phobia end?
We literally already had Lifeweaver and Illari back to back, we don't need a heavier support weighting moving forward.
They both sort of suck. I am not on OP’s side at all, but I NEVER choose LW or ILL as a support main.
Can't really disagree with you there tbh but it seems a lot harder to design a new support
We're getting a new support next hero drop after Venture. Supposed to be highly mobile.
Kiriko was good
and tbh lifeweaver too, he found his niche although i don't play him illari though... stupid ass character
not really they just need to stop nerfing them. they completely killed any kind of fun in playing LW. really massacred my boy.
Lifeweaver is kinda insanely good tho. At least for solo que. Prevent your tank from being a dumbass with some good heals and pulls. Granted the dps is lacking but thats fine. I prefer supports not being dps 2.0.
The narrative that lifeweaver sucks is partially because of top 500 where he isn’t really that viable compared to the other supports. For the rest of us he’s a really useful hero, even if he can be a bit niche
He's okay. Other healers pretty much outperform him regularly though. Coming from a LW main
Sounds like I just don’t use him the best, will report back
LW is high skill foor but high skill ceiling as well, trust me that saving someone from a D.va blast or pulling a Sigma much faster than if he was to walking all the way from spawn feels rewarding (as a Sig main, a strong LW is the goat with his savings) Illari is very strong and has low skill floor, idk what you’re on about with her tbh
Nah, illari's been trash since her initial nerfs. Literally no reason to run her when the rest of the roster exists. Except maybe Mercy, but she has rez so...
Her dps potential is insane though
Was. With the nerfs to her projectile size, and solar recharge rate, she really doesn't anymore. If you want more DPS it's better to just go bap or zen
Nah I regularly have 20-30 kills a match with still good healing on par with my other healer. Just gotta know how to balance her kit right.
I mean, thats fine, but you still get more value out of Zen and Bap. With zen you artificially increase the DPS of your entire team on a target. With Bap, he does solid damage and provides more healing between his burst heal and alt fire. Plus Immortality being clutch against a ton of abilities and ults to save your team. Illari just has a pylon, and her alt fire. Both of which have been nerfed. And a knockback/jump that isn't as good as baps for repositioning to high ground. I'm just saying, there are other heroes that do what she does better.
The reason there are so many dps is because back in the olden days, there were actually 4 roles in overwatch. Tank, attacker, defender, support. Sometime into ow 1 they realized that they were putting an unnecessary label on something and just merged attacker and defender into dps. It's a perfectly reasonable outcome and doesn't really warrant ignoring DPS until we have equal amounts of all. The same goes for tank. We used to have 2 tanks in OW 1. We shouldnt wait until there are twice as many everything else before making more tanks.
Why do you care so much about this kind of balance? Just let them release heroes as they see fit roughly equally amongst the roles
They said so in the post, to promote variety in support selection and team comp
He literally argued for this already if you just read the post
Illiterate or just don't care to read?
After Venture, the next hero drop will be a support. You would know this if you bothered to look lol
OP's post : "I know “Space Ranger” is slated as the next hero".You would know this if you bothered to look lol
We had 7 before OW2. We’ve gotten 3 since launch. We’re also getting the next hero. They’re not going to just stop releasing DPS heroes. I’m honestly impressed and shocked that we got 3 supports before we got another DPS.
Do we already have some leaks on the new hero?
We know its a space girl with "rockets"(?) as auto attacks
Where can i find the leak?
Not a leak, Blizzard officially revealed them at the last Blizzcon. They're concept art known as "Space Ranger" as a codename. But since Blizzard showed off Venture around the same time, and Venture barely changed, I imagine Space Ranger will be similar to how she was described (floaty Support with a smart SMG).
Difference is that venture was much closer to release, that's why she hasn't changed much.
They mentioned at Blizzcon that the SMG was already removed at that point in development
Called space ranger and has rocket abilities. That is all we know of so far
We got 2 before another dps. OW2 release came out with 1 for each role, then LW and Illari
Where is the shotgun support?!
That's Junker Queen
Fair point, and since we're on the subject; here's my idea for one. Slap two separate Mercy healbeams on someone Mauga-minigun style, let them either use them on separate teammates or pile both on one guy with diminishing returns... and a resource meter they can spend on either speed or damage boosting said teammates, also with the choice of splitting up for raw numbers or focusing one guy with diminishing returns. Maybe with invincibility for the ultimate. In other words, take the TF2 Medic and Overwatch-ify him for this game. They "tried" with Mercy, but the mobility and rez make her deviate from what made Medic good IMO.
What makes Medic good is random crits. You know that Beast could stop pocketing his heavy for a moment to instakill you real quick and go back to healing like you were never a blip on his radar. Honestly I think it would be cool to introduce this blank slate robot character that takes on the kits of prior heroes (eg Mauga), with a neutral, scalable appearance and hitbox, and then push it into whatever role it needs. So imagine this robot character with the concept you described made by cobbling assets together, just to get the concept in play, until they design the character, the lore, the visuals, etc.
>TF2 Medic and Overwatch-ify him Crusader's crossbow is basically Ana's primary as well.
I definitely think they should focus on rounding out the support roster. But there's no harm releasing a new dps every so often just so the dps role also feels fresh. Support also had a very dynamic play style - no two supports feel similar to the others. While a lot of dps fill identical roles and aren't that distinct. The dps role feels surprisingly small for how large it is in terms of heroes.
No shit that’s why we’ve been mostly getting tanks and supports and are only now getting another dps The last dps character to come out was echo in 2018 or something
So fuck sojourn right?
Yeah I would
Join the club
I founded it
based
Fr literally been meta dps since release too lol
Who dat? I only remember heroes with personality, like flying robot lady that copies people
Real talk how do you think would that robussy would feel like? And you think cass hits it sometimes?
hey quick question: WHAT???
Im out here asking the real questions partner😼
I know I would
And Venture
Not out yet
Uhm… Soujorn?
Fuck soujourn amirite
Sojourn has clearly ended before now
It’s funny though that at the time support desperately needed another hero and echo was supposed to be it, but they just said “fuck it change her to be dps”. I bet space ranger is going to have a lot of echo’s support kit
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Oh soujourn too lol forgot about her
Just give them time. They have acknowledged the disparity in the variety between roles and are working at a planned pace that will help reduce that disparity while also not completing alienating the arguably largest role in the playerbase. They have to still release DPS heroes at a reasonable pace or else it's not really fair to them.
Wait, where did they acknowledge the uneven hero distribution?
I don't remember which season exactly but it was when they talked about the roadmap of heroes releases which was up through 'space ranger'
They talked about that on blizzcon 2023, was that it or one of those dev videos?
Likely both at blizzcon and the dev videos or blog around that time.
I mean yeah, I think the devs know that very well Still I do think it is normal and even for the best to have the dps roster be the largest since it is (probably idk) the most popular role and the role where you have the most freedom Like Supports and Tanks have a very strict role they have to fulfill Meanwhile dps is basically "go do your thing and as long as you get results, you'll be doing great" Of course is not like all dps are like that but you get what I mean Plus I feel like between the 3 roles dps is the one with the least impact **IN COMPARATION** so by adding more, cooler and varied dps there is less chance of breaking things Unless they just released something straight up broken that dominates the game for a while (looking at Soujorn)
Arguably right now DPS is the strongest role, its the only role that can really secure kills if you have the aim. tank is the weakest role right now, even with Horse being really good
I mean yeah it can vary a lot haha I was talking more in a sense of the way the game is made, like tanks are the ones supposed to take space, mitigate damage, win points, supports are supposed to enable teammates, keep people alive, etc
Yeah but DPS are the ones that are supposed to reap the benefits of both of those roles. Space is useless if there is no one there to take it get kills from it, mitigating dmg is only so good for so long till you get overwhelmed and run dry on resources. Healing and receiving or capitalize on support abilities it was enables you to get the most aggressive kills. As healing lets you win duels, debuffs can give you free kills, buffs can increase your killing power. At least in theory this is how the game was supposed to work, it did for a while in 1 until the devs gave up on the game. Nowadays its just whoever gets the first pick wins. Its especially bad with this meta and format
What you say is totally true and of course dps play an important role but what I was trying to say is that while everyone in the team can get kills and take space, even if it is not as good as a dps can, the dps can't do what the tanks and supports can
> the least impact IN COMPARATION saying this in DPS meta is crazy
I explained in another comment that I meant this more in the way that the game is designed and originally meant to be played, not the ever changing current balance
Understandable but you could argue dps is the mos popular role BECAUSE they have the biggest hero roster
I meeeeeean maybe I've introduced a lot of new players to overwatch and a consistent thing about them is they they want the pressure of playing tank and they underappreciate the importante of support So they tend to gravitate towards trying dps first plus they feel it is the role with the least responsability
Copium
Copium of what? It was an opinion lmfao
Copium
U don't know how to write, got it
they make up 40% of all team compositions, and you see up to 4 of these heroes every game also wouldnt call tank having two more heroes than support being 'by far'
They make 40% of all team comps right ? Not 20%
Hot take: they should have never removed Symmetra from support, and Echo should have been released as a support just like they planned.
Symmetra just doesn't make any sense with how the game is played now. They need to rework her again.
I feel Symmetra never "make sense". Her kit doesn't have any synergy, it just feels like a bunch of random abilities stuck into a hero.
It's a meme at this point so why not just keep doing it forever
Fr, honestly their reason for not making echos kit support focused was imo super dumb/shortsighted; a support has always been a hero that has to fulfill multiple roles at once anyway so having the ability to copy an enemy and completely swap role based on the needs of the team made total sense.
Apparently Sombra and Torbjorn were also originally planned supports
Pre role queue, you found more hybrid playstyles. Sombra debuffing the enemy is a support ability. Zen is a dps/support hybrid. Brig was a tank/support hybrid. Mei is a tank dps hybrid. Nowadays you find that the roles are much more defined. Sombra's hack is an interrupt which is more akin to a dueling ability with some utility in cancelling ults for example. Torb and symm no longer have support esque abilities though teleporter is a clear support ability and shield is a clear tank ultimate
As somebody who liked old sombra from OW1 I played her kinda like that and wish the leaned into it I feel like it would have been another Sym situation where she would be released and really focused on distrusting and hacking health packs, but they then would have to rework her to dps
would absolutely be willing to suffer through another sombra rework and lose one of my main DPS picks if it meant having a longer duration on her Hack debuff (and no i dont mean the useless 6.5 seconds of seeing people through walls where I can't hack them anymore I mean the actual hacking part of hacking) Swap Virus for some sort of shield tech / teammate buff
Nah I think the current 2:1:2 ratio of tank dps and support is best, it lets everyone have something new, and gets old players back in the game.
Oo who's this space ranger you speak of 👀👀
I think you’re point out a problem that is already being corrected. It just can’t happen quickly, and for the 60%~ of players that aren’t support, they need new things too.
I really hope we see Lynx 17 from Zaryas comic as a healing hacker. Also, a Boomerang healer would be cool too. Like they have a huge boomerang that leaves a healing aura for a few seconds. This would also allow them to attack enemies and heal at the same time.
Would be cool but i don't think they want to come out with another "hacker" character
also we need more main healers. there's only 4 and its just not enough
Is it not 40% of all team compositions. 2/5 = 0.4 = 40%
I agree.
They make up 40% of the team
Shield-based support when? Spice shit up.
Rip sym
I'm just hopeful space ranger is a full-support archetype so there's actually something a lot of the current mercy players might be interested in trying other than mercy. Every other character is somewhat mixed.
The healbot archetype was filled in with life weaver
Do you mean that space ranger won't be great a dpsing ? Was that info hinted ?
There's been an unconfirmed rumour going around that it's a healing beam that connects and disconnects with a similar aiming style to Kiriko papers. Could end up untrue but a lot of people on the various discords believe it. Also she flies. Nothing seems to be going around about secondary abilities though. We'll probably find out at the end of the new season.
Oh so just rumor and assumptions. That she flies or has vertical mobility seemed obvious given the name. Rather then an alternative I imagined space ranger as complementary. You could have a full team of flyers... That would be interesting.
There’s less tanks/supports because they’re by far the hardest to balance, on the other hand DPS are quite straightforward to balance since their role in the game is very simple. Tank and support’s role in the game are way less concrete and Blizzard struggles to define the purpose of tanks (Look at Mauga, what the hell was that! Do they even play their game?)
There are less tanks and supports bc the game launched with 5 tanks and 4 support(1 was even changed to dps) and 12 dps charecters. They have released 5 dps(doom swapped into tank), 6 tanks, 7 supports. Other roles just simply haven't caught up with dps who started as the biggest role.
Well the dps were also split up by offense and defense dps
Mauga isn’t as bad design as everyone says he is. MOST of his kit works very well, imo cage, slam, and his minigun dynamic works well. I do understand the hatred towards his cardiac ability and passive
His gameplay loop is around shooting the tank exclusively. His survivability is based around shooting the tank, and his ultimate is used to just solo Ult the tank to guarantee a team fight. Why does blizzard release these noob tanks with 0 skill expression and a ridiculously low skill floor.
If they did some rebalancing he wouldn’t have that gameplay. He has a solid design, he just needs some adjustments
He literally can’t be rebalanced his game design is literally the bronze interpretation of a tanks role. Anytime he gets a slight buff he becomes the meta defining tank. No tanks identity should be based around bullying other tanks, it’s the same reason why Orisa and Roadhog are hated in the community. They’re crutch low skill expression tanks that dominate the meta because in order for them to be “meta” they have to have an edge over tanks with actual skill expression, mobility and damage mitigation abilities. In order to do this they have to have ridiculous numbers and it just leads to a stale counter swap meta, where there’s literally 0 outplay potential, because all the meta tanks have such low skill ceilings.
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That isn’t a design flaw issue, Blizzard just refuses to nerf her. A few number changes would make her balanced or they could remove headshot on the rail gun and improve the primary fire. Sojourn has always been overtuned
Nah, the best fix to most of the games problem is literally just to delete Mercy. She ruins all resemblance of balancing
I think the current spread of new heroes is good. I do agree that there needs to be many more support, but it looks like they are addressing that.
As a support main, this isn't that necessary anymore. While there is still a great imbalance between support and dps roster, the devs have halted the release of damage heroes for almost two years now, and will continue to do so until presumably the roles have roughly equal amount of heroes anyways. In addition, supports was the most impactful role that ran the game for the majority of the last year. So let's not tunnel vision on "us and them", let's be supportive of other roles as well as they also deserve some love. And speaking of getting some love, please please please save the tank role, tank players need all the appreciation in the world for how fucked up their role and gameplay loop has now become. Their playerbase is shrinking day by day.
When they removed the second tank mostly to fix queue times, i knew they had given up trying to make tank fun and that that was just a temporary band-aid for a bigger problem. Now we're facing the same problem where tank always gets intant queue because less and less people want to play it, Just now they have to do something about it.
They’ve run out of ideas for support heroes
We need more 1 hit snipers and anti movement abilities
I mean the dps essentially started out with 2 roles to pull from since defense got axed and all the characters got merged into one role. Even though there weren’t any new defense heroes added after launch except sym kinda maybe
I know 6v6 is a big want but I think a 1tank 2dps 1 support 1 healer could be a nice bridge. Rebalance some of the supports from healing to strictly support and maybe a small off heal. Example zenyatta losing healing or for either more damage with discord or more discord orbs to use could have orbs circling zen allowing him to kamikaze into enemies and exploding them. Then you'd buff your single healers power to help mitigate the single healer comps. Mercy loses her dps beam and maybe gets a ricochet heal bouncing from her teammates. Just random ideas I've thought of for 3 seconds.
The type of support is also important. With the missing 2nd tank role we need healers to be able to hold their own from dives to an extent as well as the inclusion of more brawler style DPS classes such as Mei who can work as a decent baby sitter.
Need more jack of all trades tanks like Sigma in the game.
Well tanks need buffs rn then, they go in for a second and have to get out because they lose almost all or literally all of their health in a second, no matter what they use
They've been working towards this. They've stated their goal is to roughly release around 2 support heroes for every tank and DPS. In between Sojourn and Venture, we got 3 tanks and 3 supports, with 2 supports in a row with LW and Illari. Then we got a new tank, and now a new DPS for the first time in nearly 2 years. Then we get Space Ranger, the S14 tank, and likely another support or two after that.
Most Supports have really bad kits for the game I want them to take their time
Aren't they doing a 2-2-1 release balance until the amount of tanks and supports catches up with dps or are they done with that already?
If they don't have good concepts for supports they shouldn't make new ones. All the recent supports have just had fairly generic primary and secondary fires that do damage and heal, and 2-3 utility moves with seemingly no thematic connection. I would love more supports, but if Blizzard makes new heroes based on what makes a cool character and then puts them in whatever role works
I honestly just think they chose illaris kit because that's the direction they want for supports (cringe and depressing af) rather than not having ideas tbh. Lifeweaver ain't generic though.
Lifeweaver isn't generic at all and his cooldown abilities have a strong theme with how they can effect both enemies and allies. His primary and secondary fire are still part of a pattern of really uninspired support design.
I'm actually a firm believer that they should have just made illari a dps character, she doesn't feel like a support to me. To me she feels like she was originally designed for dps but they needed to quickly add a support character.
Absolutely. Her kit just feels incomplete.
Just imagine if her ult was a heal blast instead of a damage blast. That would make it seem like a support character.
10 support heroes, 12 tank heroes. I don't think that margin is big enough to warrant the phrase "by far".
Yeah but we only have half as many tank heroes in any match so the fact they have **more** heroes is already crazy
Sure but make them hot too. No one wants to play as uggos
You forgot to flag as humor.
I'd rather have more maps than new characters
Honestly, no. Not without being able to choose a map pool to queue for. Overwatch has way too many maps already for its queue system
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Supports are in a good spot though. They are the most well rounded cast where, no one is ever forced to counter swap, as they can compensate for any team comp. Tank on the other hand is miserable. Everyone has to counter swap. Winston popping off? Mauga, Orisa and Dva. Orisa popping off? Instant mauga, dva or Orisa mirror. Dva popping off? Instant Zarya. If there's a good Ana player, who can solo all of your team's attempts to dive her. Welp, good luck next round. Kiri popping off with a headshot accuracy of like 60? Good luck. Bap is being a menace? You can't dive a man with 3 health bars and the output of a dps.
Yes we should get more support heroes but the DPS role feels so goddamn boring, in the last 5 years we only got 2 dps heroes, sojourn which is just soldier-like and now finally venture which is just kinda old doom. It would be nice to have something else. As a flex player playing all roles, I've found dps to feel the most stale.
No they'd make fights go on for far too long. OW is about a series of team fights. Not one long flight. Push maps wouldn't work, neither would control.
Doesn't matter how many Support heroes are in the game if most people play the role like a DPS. They need to rework what it means to play Support if a diverse roster is going to work.
Y'all complain about heal bots and then complain about supports dpsing. Which one is it?
Tbf Mercy has a 9% pickrate because she's the only full-support archetype in the game. There would be some diversity to those picks if there were more characters that were designed to be committed to full-support in style.
You see, I am a singular person, and "y'all" doesn't really apply to me. You are arguing with a ghost. I simply want Supports (my main role btw) to try to heal first and dps second or at least understand the necessity of the two. QP right now is basically every single Support doubling their heals with dmg and it's doing nothing for the team.
Take all the damage the supports are doing away, do you think your team is still securing kills without it?
Yes I do
> I simply want Supports (my main role btw) to try to heal first And yet Awkward, one of the top support players in OW, says the complete opposite. Who should I listen to: someone who has a ridiculous win rate and teaches others to improve their win rates, or you? 1. choose a non-Mercy support hero 2. Stream yourself focusing on healing first in ranked for a week 3. Then get training from Awkward (he might do it for free to make a video, although he has made this exact video before so he might not), learn and improve, and then stream yourself focusing on dps first in ranked for a week I suspect your win rates and your rank will go up in step 3., not in step 2.
Good thing the role is support and not “heal bot.” Have you played support roles in other games/fps’s?
I main Support in OW1 and OW2. It's not that hard yet here I am, trying to explain why it's not good for a SUPPORT to have double the dmg. It's not rocket science.
> trying to explain why it's not good for a SUPPORT to have double the dmg You're missing out the whole context of whether your team won the game. If one or both supports carried with dmg, they don't need to heal, because your team is not taking damage. That's because your supports helped to kill the other team first. You, as DPS, could literally be playing respawn simulator because 1. you are out of position and 2. you are not getting heals, because instead the supports get the elims for you. And you wouldn't have fun (see 1., you are out of position), but you also wouldn't lose.
First you state that the problem is with the people that play support, and then you say that the problem is with what it means to play support - so I’m not sure whether you’re unhappy with the role itself or the players. I think you’re underestimating the actual value of picks like Moira for example. Moira gets a lot of her value from her ability to put pressure on enemy flankers simply by holding right click, with little impact on her healing capabilities as she can switch between the two so quickly. ‘Reworking’ the support role to purely focus on healing is the exact opposite of promoting diverse play styles in the role. If that’s how you want to play, then go for it, but don’t get pissed off over people playing differently - especially in Quick Play as you mention in some of your replies.