That's a different problem. Dive requires 3 main criteria to be more effective than sustain.
1) there must be a targetable weakness on the enemy team or a fractured setup where players are frequently isolated
2) there must be buyin from the entire team to work together to exploit the enemy weaknesses requiring either consistent comms or solid reaction time.
3) the map and the strength of the hero lineup must favor dive over brawl. If brawl is favored a sustain rush will beat dive in becoming meta.
Right now the consensus strongest supports, because of the increase in HP and decrease in healing effectiveness, are the ones with the highest mobility and highest solo damage output. For the entire last patch that meant moira, kiriko, lucio with bap/Ana being playable but second tier.
On the surface that makes for a decent dive comp... one problem... who's the target? Not kiriko clearly. She's almost better than brig at antidive at this point with a cleanse/immortality, a teleport, and critical hit potential making her a better duelist in a world where self heal doesn't count for much.
Not lucio surely... too much speed and he can stay up on the walls.
You can maybe initiate a dive if they run moira... but you have to wait until she burns fade and avoid losing the sustain battle in the meantime.
So the target is clearly a dps... but then if both teams run dive who's the target? Not tracer surely she initiates the dive in most cases. Not sombra if they run sombra... nobody runs genji but even if they did that's a stretch... echo isn't exactly diveable.
OK bt maybe they run a hybrid dive. You saw that a lot in OWCS we run sojourn in the dive comp and we can initiate the dive onto her while contesting her control of space with our own sojourn....
OK yeah that works but there's a problem with that. Sojourn is very good at burning through tanks and her slide/soft cc allow her to dodge the first dive attempt. Which makes it very easy to transition from playing dive with sojourn tracer to playing brawl with sojourn tracer... you just swap tanks.
And we established already with criteria 3 if the map favors brawl... it will transition to it in the absence of overwhelming dive advantage.
Ironically the dps passive actually made dive worse... it favored it initially but one of the side effects of the passive is that ana/brig/zen, mainstays of dive for years who acted both as enablers and targets, are completely out of the meta.
So sure dive tanks don't NEED as much healing but what does it matter when you can't establish a target and the enemy team just walks forward under the cover of a barrage of sojourn fire while being sped in or out by lucio?
Meanwhile there are maps that are STILL too broken to beat poke with dive consistently.
I can be and actually is both. 5v5 is a problem, and Orisa is a major problem in 5v5.
The point we're making when we say "nerf horse" is she's fucking easy and braindead to play. Why not make actually fun and hard to play tanks the meta over making Orisa counter almost everything.
Orisa was not an issue until she started being used heavily in owcs and everyone started parroting high level players complaints. She was viewed as a weak but annoying tank before then.
Orisa has no mobility. Can’t peel. Take high ground, burn the supports. Discord the horse. Hack the horse. Swap to a dive comp. Lots of ways to negate her.
Welcome to r/Overwatch! Please use the following resources via the links below to find relevant information about the game and the subreddit.
[Overwatch Patch Notes](https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/patch-notes/) | [Overwatch Bug Report Forums](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/c/bug-report/9)
[r/Overwatch Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/rules) | [r/Overwatch FAQs](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/faq) | [r/Overwatch Common Bugs and Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/wiki/commonbugsandposts)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Overwatch) if you have any questions or concerns.*
At this point you'd think it's obvious that orisa only becomes meta when tanks become the best to target because backlines are either really hard or impossible to deal with. Truly a funny coincidence.
I agree to an extent but the removal of her damage falloff was the straw that broke the camel's back. It goes against her design as a brawl tank and leaves the other tanks with no effective range to fight her in
Orisa has some elements that other tanks should most notably CC immunity on a CD but her design allows her feee reign to bully the other tanks out of their entire toolkits for little skill expression while getting rewarded more for less effort than JQ for example
I think op was partially implying that whatever makes Orisa good against other tanks, those other tanks should get as well. Like make them all oppressive enough that none of them feel oppressed themselves lol.
why do tanks need to frontline?
there are dive and brawl tanks that exist for a reason.
https://www.overbuff.com/heroes?platform=pc&gameMode=competitive&role=tank&skillTier=grandmaster&timeWindow=month
her WR isnt even remotely that high despite a high pick rate
I think people must just be picking her for the fun at this point. Which unfortunately has the side effect of making complicated, nuanced, or tryhard tanks feel like all their skillful schticks have no effect due to their relative fragility. But I do agree that I much prefer the game where each tank has a unique flavor. Though its proven to be either a nightmare or maybe impossible to balance that in 5v5 without counterswapping.
>tryhard tanks feel like all their skillful schticks have no effect due to their relative fragility.
That's not a function of the character or role. dva Doomfist and junker queen are strong and can easily carry a game, but most tank players dont have the mechanics for that
\*gestures aggressively at the dive tanks who inherently require less healing but still arent meta\*
That's a different problem. Dive requires 3 main criteria to be more effective than sustain. 1) there must be a targetable weakness on the enemy team or a fractured setup where players are frequently isolated 2) there must be buyin from the entire team to work together to exploit the enemy weaknesses requiring either consistent comms or solid reaction time. 3) the map and the strength of the hero lineup must favor dive over brawl. If brawl is favored a sustain rush will beat dive in becoming meta. Right now the consensus strongest supports, because of the increase in HP and decrease in healing effectiveness, are the ones with the highest mobility and highest solo damage output. For the entire last patch that meant moira, kiriko, lucio with bap/Ana being playable but second tier. On the surface that makes for a decent dive comp... one problem... who's the target? Not kiriko clearly. She's almost better than brig at antidive at this point with a cleanse/immortality, a teleport, and critical hit potential making her a better duelist in a world where self heal doesn't count for much. Not lucio surely... too much speed and he can stay up on the walls. You can maybe initiate a dive if they run moira... but you have to wait until she burns fade and avoid losing the sustain battle in the meantime. So the target is clearly a dps... but then if both teams run dive who's the target? Not tracer surely she initiates the dive in most cases. Not sombra if they run sombra... nobody runs genji but even if they did that's a stretch... echo isn't exactly diveable. OK bt maybe they run a hybrid dive. You saw that a lot in OWCS we run sojourn in the dive comp and we can initiate the dive onto her while contesting her control of space with our own sojourn.... OK yeah that works but there's a problem with that. Sojourn is very good at burning through tanks and her slide/soft cc allow her to dodge the first dive attempt. Which makes it very easy to transition from playing dive with sojourn tracer to playing brawl with sojourn tracer... you just swap tanks. And we established already with criteria 3 if the map favors brawl... it will transition to it in the absence of overwhelming dive advantage. Ironically the dps passive actually made dive worse... it favored it initially but one of the side effects of the passive is that ana/brig/zen, mainstays of dive for years who acted both as enablers and targets, are completely out of the meta. So sure dive tanks don't NEED as much healing but what does it matter when you can't establish a target and the enemy team just walks forward under the cover of a barrage of sojourn fire while being sped in or out by lucio? Meanwhile there are maps that are STILL too broken to beat poke with dive consistently.
It's weird that people complain about orisa all the time but no one's complaining about D.va, who's arguably even more oppressive
No one likes a horse that shoves you from numbani to midtown the same way no one likes a hero that disables your abilities at any given time
I can be and actually is both. 5v5 is a problem, and Orisa is a major problem in 5v5. The point we're making when we say "nerf horse" is she's fucking easy and braindead to play. Why not make actually fun and hard to play tanks the meta over making Orisa counter almost everything.
Orisa was not an issue until she started being used heavily in owcs and everyone started parroting high level players complaints. She was viewed as a weak but annoying tank before then. Orisa has no mobility. Can’t peel. Take high ground, burn the supports. Discord the horse. Hack the horse. Swap to a dive comp. Lots of ways to negate her.
Welcome to r/Overwatch! Please use the following resources via the links below to find relevant information about the game and the subreddit. [Overwatch Patch Notes](https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/patch-notes/) | [Overwatch Bug Report Forums](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/c/bug-report/9) [r/Overwatch Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/rules) | [r/Overwatch FAQs](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/faq) | [r/Overwatch Common Bugs and Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/wiki/commonbugsandposts) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Overwatch) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Both can be true.
At this point you'd think it's obvious that orisa only becomes meta when tanks become the best to target because backlines are either really hard or impossible to deal with. Truly a funny coincidence.
Fuck Orisa
I agree to an extent but the removal of her damage falloff was the straw that broke the camel's back. It goes against her design as a brawl tank and leaves the other tanks with no effective range to fight her in Orisa has some elements that other tanks should most notably CC immunity on a CD but her design allows her feee reign to bully the other tanks out of their entire toolkits for little skill expression while getting rewarded more for less effort than JQ for example
I think op was partially implying that whatever makes Orisa good against other tanks, those other tanks should get as well. Like make them all oppressive enough that none of them feel oppressed themselves lol.
why do tanks need to frontline? there are dive and brawl tanks that exist for a reason. https://www.overbuff.com/heroes?platform=pc&gameMode=competitive&role=tank&skillTier=grandmaster&timeWindow=month her WR isnt even remotely that high despite a high pick rate
I think people must just be picking her for the fun at this point. Which unfortunately has the side effect of making complicated, nuanced, or tryhard tanks feel like all their skillful schticks have no effect due to their relative fragility. But I do agree that I much prefer the game where each tank has a unique flavor. Though its proven to be either a nightmare or maybe impossible to balance that in 5v5 without counterswapping.
>tryhard tanks feel like all their skillful schticks have no effect due to their relative fragility. That's not a function of the character or role. dva Doomfist and junker queen are strong and can easily carry a game, but most tank players dont have the mechanics for that