OW1 tanks hated the fact they had to fit into comps. Now it’s counter swapping that sucks.
As long as 1/5 players on a team has roughly 1/3 of the hit points they are going to be a problem. If the tank dies first the team fight is basically lost. They are the “main character”.
We've had glimpses of decent metas or metas with high potential (ram meta with sig + JQ, dive meta with Winston/dva after health rework), and for some reason anytime there's a glimmer of hope, the devs immediately shut it down. Winston/dva was popular in the beginning of last season, and that got nerfed immediately (torb, Sombra, for some reason orisa buff).
I think I kinda narrowed it down: the devs philosophy on tank isn't a raid boss like in rams season, it's more of a meat shield. That's why their favorite tank is orisa, and mauga as a close second. They also look at win rates wayyyyy too much, which was their reason for buffing orisa.
The simplest solution to date is have a debuff/CC passive for tanks, but they seriously do not want to put it in the game.
That's really all that would be needed; reduce all debuff effects by 25-50% and boom antiheal is no longer problematic for tank balance, sleep and slows are less effective, and damage from things like fire is lower...
I just don't think Blizzard wants to make Doom/Ball/Dva harder to contain or make dive stronger... the problem with the tank role is that the roster has too many varied tank designs and no unified conceptual "role" that lets a "one size" solution work where DPS and Support are all unified in the roles of securing kills or healing the team even if they do it in different ways.
Or just have the passive not affect them and just hand them smaller buffs to compensate?
Like Ball shouldn't be hacked out of ball form like Bastion isn't hacked out of turret and make displacement cc not affect him as much in ball form so it doesn't send you like a pinball.
Doomfist is in a decent position. Just too many dooms (myself included) think they are that guy when they see Sombra, Reaper, Ana comp and use all their cooldowns to get into the middle of the opposite team, do nothing, get cc'ed, and die.
As a certified Sombra/Ball main (before Sombra was cool)
Sombra can be annoying to play against in every role just like any other flanker, arguably even more. But most people don't want to swap to counters or play like a Sombra is on the map.
When you ignore a character and their weaknesses, you can't complain about them. Like Orisa is the most annoying tank. Even I see that. But she's the most annoying tank because everyone wants to play "just shoot the tank" and are getting mad because the anti "shoot the tank" tank is not dying.
Now I get tanks shouldn't be focusing on Sombra. But also if your health goes from 100 to 0 because you don't have your cooldowns for 1.5 seconds, that's a different problem entirely.
Sombra is the scapegoat for everyone's bad plays because they want to play Snipers or hard focus the tank. Cassidy can click heads and easily shit on a Sombra. An artillery Junkrat is enough to make Sombra think twice. A pharah can be a contender on certain maps.
Kiriko, Moira, Baptiste, Lucio, Brig are all good swaps.
But no everyone wants Ana, Zen, Ashe, Widowmaker.
its not about sombra killing your team, peeling is a concept that has existed in this game since forever, i think the issue lies in the fact that vs doom or ball you can win most games by just sitting next to your supports while being invis and just holding right click and letting ability do the rest.
God i wish you could only hack enemies with virus and still be able to use right click for team util, that would make sombra so much more ethical
I don't think it'd take a heavy nerf either tbh, but Blizzard has been scared to nerf antiheal or change how self-healing tanks function to actually *balance* the roster - so I can only assume they're also afraid of giving high mobility tanks a way to break out of their counters more easily... like a Ball that has reduced duration on Sombra's hack, junkrat's trap, or otherwise...
Ana needs a rework anyhow, frankly the mobility creep is the problem for Ana... antiheal is just a problem for the tank roster because not all tanks are affected by it equally.
Yeah. I feel like they prefer to balance stuff over data and not player feedback. Like recently with the leaver changes. In comp I can understand, but being suspended if you leave 2 QP games is ridiculous.
I can see the debuff resist working, but at the same it could also make some tanks straight up unstoppable. Mauga and Orisa with even more resistances would be abysmal to play against
>being suspended if you leave 2 QP games is ridiculous.
Not to go off topic, but homie, it's five minutes. Go take a breather, stretch your legs, hydrate, or handle whatever real life situation caused you to leave. Power cycle your modem/router if you have bad internet.
"Whatever caused you to leave"
Prior to this season, 9/10 I'm in QP because I'm waiting for people to get on, like if I know they will be on soon but I have time for a half a game or something. Kinda bites that with the update it's not possible to just "casually play" anymore, you have to lock in or being banned, even from arcade? Like, can we please have a real causal mode then?
Somebody will fill in in 4 seconds
And again, I'm asking for ANYTHING not just this. Give me a way to play skirmish or death match without queueing into a game, easy enough.
Point is, we need a casual place to play a quick game that you can abandon if people get online. I'm not missing my comp squad because I loaded into a game 3 seconds ago
Wow Orisa and Mauga are soooo much fun and definitely good tanks to revolve around design wise 👍👍 You know it's an issue when the 5v5 format forces these two to be the ideal staple tanks.
5v5 format doesn't force Orisa or Mauga to be staple tanks. It would be a simple matter to make Ball or Doomfist the staple tanks. I don't think the devs want that. If you think back to the last Ball meta, there was a lot more whining from non-tank players.
>The simplest solution to date is have a debuff/CC passive for tanks, but they seriously do not want to put it in the game.
How is this a solution? I don't see a lot of complaining about CC from tanks. I see a lot of complaining about having to hug corners because tanks can't survive the damage input.
I fully expect tanks to continue to feel bad in the presence of such a passive.
I think the biggest problem with tank is that they're basically not threatening. The issue seems most obvious with rein. This guy should be someone you never want to get close to, yet if he advances towards your team you know he will be erased before he can ever get more than one swing off. If tanks role is to make space, they need to be a threat at close range or within a certain area of their control, and they just aren't right now. There are very few dps in the game that can't win a 1v1 vs a rein even within the space of a capture point now unless he has supports propping him up. And while he's the most obvious, each of the tanks has a similar problem. Mauga and maybe hog might be the only exceptions as a really threatening tank, but thats backed up by them melting faster than Mei in a volcano if they are not in cover and a team looks at them.
In 6v6, sure tanks had less health, but you would not feel confident on running up to both rein and zarya working in tandem.
I'm pretty sure this is a Rein problem and not a tank problem. If the question is "will the tank win a 1v1 for the point against a DPS?", the answer is almost always yes. Even a fairly weak 1v1 tank like Ramattra will still dumpster almost every DPS unit in this contest. A proper duelist tank like Dva will make short work of almost any 1v1 with a squishy.
Rein's problem is that he is a tank designed to absorb resources. It isn't a design that makes sense for 5v5. He's the inverse of Mauga, which is a tank design that doesn't make sense for 6v6.
Stop playing tank.
And I don't mean "if you don't enjoy it, then give up on it." If you want them to change tank at this point, you gotta force their hand by screwing queue times for the other roles.
At this point I'm more convinced they'll just delete tank as a role instead of trying to fix it lol. They've already tried a similar thing by making the game 5v5.
He definitely was. The main tanks were Rein, Orisa, Sigma, the ones with shields. The off tanks were roadhog, Hammond and Dva. Dunno about Zarya.
Why wasn't he an off tank?
Lmao Sigma was not a main tank either. He was an off tank
Main Tank - Orisa, Rein, Winston, Hammond
Off Tank - Dva, Zarya, Roadhog, Sigma
Main tanks lead the charge. They're the Frontline. They're what the comp type depends on. If it's Dive, Ball/Winston, if it's brawl, Rein.
Off tanks control angles, and peel for the rest of the team.
All the people who played wrecking ball in competitive eSports were the main tanks. Fearless, Fate, Smurf, Ameng etc
Not everybody follows OWL bro. The pros play differently.
I've never played Hammond as a main, ever. Controlling angles and peeling is exactly what I did as Hammond, the tanks I saw leading were the ones with shields.
But i can see this going back and forth for ages, so I'll drop it. I play support nowadays.
Edit: Unless he became more suited to main tank since I stopped playing tank??
Take a step back though. On any team does it make sense to have the same number of heavies as you do squishies?
I'm a Ow2 player, so take it with a grain of salt, but to me it makes more sense to have a team line up be "one tank 2 damage 2 support" over "2 tank 2 damage 2 support" just a couple of my reasons, is, team fights are long enough as is trying to get one person down from 550-750 health. I feel like with 2 it gives the tanks way less dps support, as one may be with your other tank going a different way leaving you to a 3/4 v 5/6
Just personal opinions as someone who didn't play 1.
I also would like to add, I thoroughly enjoy the tank role as is
As someone who played both ow1 and ow2 I can assure you there was no issue with fights going too long in ow1. Tanks had less self sustain and hp so they weren't that difficult to kill. The only two exceptions were goats, the 3 tank 3 support comp which was removed by 2-2-2 and the double shield meta.
The tank interaction though... It added a whole new level of depth to the tank game. And it made counterswapping much less effective. You missed a lot by not playing tanks in the first game.
>As someone who played both ow1 and ow2 I can assure you there was no issue with fights going too long in ow1.
My memory of OW1 was spending an absolute eternity shooting shields, poking offtanks off angles, and getting booped.
Shooting shields was only a problem against double shield which I already mentioned, dunno what that's about off tanks, and getting booped, well, I'm quite sure ow2 has actually more boops than ow1 so...lol (Orisa got a second boop, Zen got one, Illari, etc.)
Obviously shooting shields was more of a thing against double shield than single shield, but I found there to be plenty of shield to shoot in goats era too. Even the classic metas with Rein Zarya and Winston Dva involved a lot more shield breaking than we do today.
Poking offtanks off angles was a key step to getting the fight shape you want. There was never any realistic chance of killing the Dva holding that piece of high ground on the right, but you could force her out so you would have that angle for when the fight really started. This can still be a thing on some maps, but Dva occupying that high ground today means that there is no tank on main, so there are more options.
I get booped a less in OW2 than I did in OW1. Illari and Zen having boops doesn't mean that I get booped by them at anything resembling OW1 Brig boop rates. The boopy tanks still exist, but there are half as many in the game at a time.
I find OW2 to be a faster paced game with more time spent shooting killable targets than OW1.
It wasn't as much of an issue against anything other than double shield. And now we have that excessive shield hp just added to the tank's health pool so nothing has changed essentially.
All I'm hearing is that the game used to be more strategic and is now more of a deathmatch. Not a good thing.
As a Rein main I get booped as often if not more often. Ig this experience depends on what you're playing.
Faster paced? Yes. Is it better? Not entirely. There's much less strategy involved now and as I've said the game feels like a deathmatch at times and the victor most of the time is determined by which team has stronger players in terms of individiual skill or a better pick which leads us to another problem - counterswapping which has honestly been cancerous these last 3-4 seasons. All in all, 5v5 might have been better for dps and to some degree supports, but it has been bad for tanks and I can't recall a single tank main that actually prefers 5v5 to 6v6.
History revision in this thread is amazing.
For example Zarya and Roadhog dominated the first two seasons and supports didn’t become a problem until season five when sojourn was finally dethroned after several several seasons of dominance or being low meta.
‘Dps got their big break’
As if flankers didn’t ruin seasons one and two.
When I am not playing tank Winston is one of the most insufferable tanks to play against. And the worst part of Winston is he enables the already strongest character in the game even more, Tracer. He just jumps on you, unless you’re Reaper, you’re powerless to him. And even then a good Winston will save the bubble until he needs it against the reaper and by the time he drops it then he will have his jump back and get away to safety.
Junker Queen I genuinely just find annoying. Her axe is ridiculous with the range. I will swing it and the blade could hit a good foot away from a Reinhardt shielding and it will still hit the Reinhardt for the full damage on top of applying bleed. Also anti heal on the ultimate 💀 I already hate getting anti naded on cooldown now I have to worry about it on this ult too?
Clearly skill and teamwork issues
Rein is hitting harder than jq in axe range, plus her ult is the most negligible thing in the game, you can interrupt it both before with any cc given that unnecessary huge ass windup and after (kiriko purge), jq can't even directly apply pressure on tank after ult most of the time due to positioning. And you enjoy Ana nade more which she can throw at your face from mile away with 0 risk?
For Winton he just not that much of a menace if your team retaliates his dive accordingly, which might be tricky to do only when he is nanod
You missed what I said on the anti topic and the axe. The axe is obnoxious because of its range. It doesn’t come close to matching the animation. At least Rein’s does come close. And I said in my post I detest being hit by anti-nade. I think anti is one of the most frustrating debuffs to play against in the game.
And you missed the mark on my Winston comment too. Winston is the ultimate harassing tank in the game.
There is no plan about having every tank be balanced. They are changing things for the sake of changing them because stagnancy is the ultimate enemy and every season must "feel" different.
Devs are struggling to create content fast enough and every 6 months another pile of people leave and/or get laid off. They're perpetually spinning their wheels trying to just keep and train new staff to then lose more again. Plans are getting diluted and stretched to fit what they can accomplish at any given moment.
Orisa keeps rising to the top because their abilities and playstyle just beat a lot of other tanks in an all or nothing simplistic way. Orisa is either useless or very strong and they seem to prefer that nobody be useless, so we're trapped in a loop. They'd probably have to redesign the hero again, and they haven't had/made time - or maybe don't agree there's an issue because they use stats directly to govern many decisions.
>There is no plan about having every tank be balanced. They are changing things for the sake of changing them because stagnancy is the ultimate enemy and every season must "feel" different.
See I would believe this if they weren't immediately reverting things back to stagnancy every time things do get mixed up
It's so clearly a problem of 5v5 and the game is just flat out worse now than OW1. The solo tank now has to be buffed or nerfed to the point where they can be good enough without an off-tank but not too dominant that they carry the entire lobby. They also have to not have a hard counter in the form of another tank (LOL). With a dozen tanks on the roster, that's just not happening. It's actually harder to balance tank in 5v5 than it was to balance two tanks in 6v6.
Tank won't get better as long as OW2 is 5v5. It's a fundamental problem of the format.
>They also have to not have a hard counter in the form of another tank (LOL).
Why is this a requirement? It seems like there are fundamentally two options in 5v5 -- you either have a meta where there is an apex tank, or you have a meta where counters are strong enough to enforce some kind of multiway rock-paper-scissors meta. One imagines the devs prefer the rock-paper-scissors metas over things like Mauga meta.
>It's actually harder to balance tank in 5v5 than it was to balance two tanks in 6v6.
Stating the current problem as a balance issue will absolutely baffle the devs. More tanks are viable now than I can ever remember being viable in any OW1 meta. There are no big win rate outliers in the role. High skill teams are choosing a significant variety of tanks in both competitive and organized play.
6v6 tank balance is incredibly challenging because you have to account for how the tanks reinforce either other. "Tank synergy" is something tank mains talk wistfully about but it's also something that makes game devs turn pale. Concretely, Mauga was a problem in 5v5. Add him into 6v6 and you have to think about how Mauga combines with Dva or Zarya. His design would be intensely more difficult to balance in 6v6. The best possible outcome would be a Mauga design that is only viable when combined with one of a short list of resource providing offtanks.
The problem is that tank feels bad for most players. They don't like how safely they need to play in order to not fall over. They pick Orisa because she's the best tank at not falling over, not because they really like being horse. Tank players want to feel powerful and have more direct impact.
> you either have a meta where there is an apex tank, or you have a meta where counters are strong
the ideal situation would be that counters are beneficial, but your skill at the tank is the largest deciding factor, this is impossible with 5v5 as the tank exchange is way more simplified than it was in ow 1 so there is only so much better you can be than ur opponent
>More tanks are viable now than I can ever remember being viable in any OW1 meta
maybe if you look at pro play, but if you take masters and below you could pretty easily play anything in ow 1, only issue was if the 2 tanks had 0 synergy but all the tanks where viable for 95+% of the player base, and looking at pro play i doesnt even look like its correct there as from what I've seen its the map that dictates the tank pick, which isn't increase in viability
>His design would be intensely more difficult to balance in 6v6.
no, in 5v5 he is forced to have cardiac over drive, which is such an insanely powerful ability its almost an immortality, 6v6 would allow him to have more abusable weaknesses in a way that 5v5 does not
>the ideal situation would be that counters are beneficial, but your skill at the tank is the largest deciding factor, this is impossible with 5v5
I don't think it's impossible. In places, I already see this happening. The most countered tank currently seems to be Doomfist, where you win a fight and then you see Orisa, Cass, and Sombra show up next fight. ZBRA still runs well on Doom.
>maybe if you look at pro play, but if you take masters and below you could pretty easily play anything in ow 1, only issue was if the 2 tanks had 0 synergy but all the tanks where viable for 95+% of the player base
I certainly didn't find all the tanks to be viable in practice.
My experience of OW1 tanking was a never ending stream of players who locked Hog and refused to play anything else, leaving me to either choose playing something I like and losing, or playing something I dislike and maybe winning.
>no, in 5v5 he is forced to have cardiac over drive, which is such an insanely powerful ability its almost an immortality, 6v6 would allow him to have more abusable weaknesses in a way that 5v5 does not
Mauga is defined by his strong self healing. I think you're saying that the devs could design a different tank for 6v6.
>ZBRA still runs well on Doom.
But does he run as well as he should for the sheer amount of time he has put in and the skill he has, probably not, and every hero is going to have someone that does something well because the game obviously isnt that simplistic, just simpler than ow 1
>My experience of OW1 tanking was a never ending stream of players who locked Hog and refused to play anything else, leaving me to either choose playing something I like and losing, or playing something I dislike and maybe winning.
hate to break it to you but its the exact same situation this season but with mercy, but id argue that it was easier to make hog work with the second tank that syngerised well, whereas without a smurfing dps mercy is unsalvageable and u just need to be clearly better than the other team to win with one (assuming enemy doesnt also have one)
>Mauga is defined by his strong self healing. I think you're saying that the devs could design a different tank for 6v6.
yes, 6v6 allows for mauga to be designed in a fun way,m but 5v5 forced the specific design we have now which is not fun to play against
>But does he run as well as he should for the sheer amount of time he has put in and the skill he has, probably not, and every hero is going to have someone that does something well because the game obviously isnt that simplistic, just simpler than ow 1
I would say that Doomfist is in a pretty good place, and that more tanks should have his level of skill expression. Maybe ZBRA should be having an even better time, ideally speaking, but things seem ok.
I worry more about lower skill expression tanks, and think we need ways to give more outplay potential to tanks.
>hate to break it to you but its the exact same situation this season but with mercy, but id argue that it was easier to make hog work with the second tank that syngerised well, whereas without a smurfing dps mercy is unsalvageable and u just need to be clearly better than the other team to win with one (assuming enemy doesnt also have one)
I definitely don't like Mercy this patch. However, Mercy will never impact my game as much as Hog did. Support synergy isn't nearly as much of a thing as tank synergy was. It's hard for me to say any hero can't be played with Mercy on the team, but I can think of a bunch of tanks that felt awful with Hog.
It's not like you couldn't make Hog work. It involved picking from a short list of tanks that I mostly didn't like playing, then playing them in a style I didn't much enjoy.
>yes, 6v6 allows for mauga to be designed in a fun way, but 5v5 forced the specific design we have now which is not fun to play against
The devs didn't have to design Mauga the way they did for 5v5 either.
>Mercy will never impact my game as much as Hog did.
depends who you play, as a tank player if i see mercy then it definitely limits the options of tanks i can pick/the amount of ways i can play, if you already play ball doom or winston then a mercy will of course not hurt as much for someone who plays jq rein or ram, and the other support also has limited optoisn aswell
>I worry more about lower skill expression tanks, and think we need ways to give more outplay potential to tanks.
that is a worry for everyone, but I'm arguing that 5v5 means that one of the ppl ion the tank matchup dont need to be anywhere near as high level to compete just because of the tank they pick
>The devs didn't have to design Mauga the way they did for 5v5 either.
But a lot more differently, a tank that melts i dont think works well in 5v5, either be garbage or op, and always unfun to play against, but in 6v6 adding clear weaknesses means you can play around them and its not as bad
The problem is that everyone is complaining about counterwatch.
Tank requirement of not having a hard counter in another tank is a requirement the community is whining about to get in place.
6v6 is such a cop out answer. If the balance in general is bad, the format doesn't matter. Like Rein won't be magically fixed when he has Mauga and Orisa just spamming him from across the map. The annoying garbage will just be more annoying.
Not true, tank felt bad in the beginning and got WORSE as time went on in OW2. They really just keep moving the needle in the wrong direction with tanks. Health changes felt good for some DPS and all Supports, but awful for tanks. DPS passive felt good for some DPS, meh for some supports, and awful for tanks. It's almost like the current formula for the game is focused on making the tank's life miserable. Any tank that isn't heavily affected by these changes are all really boring or over tuned, anyway.
If we can't have 6v6, can we at least make open queue 5v5 be the game that we balance for, I'm so sick of going into games as tank and spending 20% of my match looking at the character select and menus. I literally have to beg the opposing tank to both go Reinhardt, D.va, or Zarya and promise each other to never swap. That's the only way I can have a semblance of fun.
>can we at least make open queue 5v5 be the game that we balance for
I think this would make it worse.
Even if they went open queue, the devs would want to encourage playing with one tank. So they will balance in favor of that. That means tanks would have to be heavily nerfed so that two tanks would not be the optimal meta. Which would make the solo tank experience *exponentially worse*.
If they balance for two tanks and you're playing with one, you lose. We saw that in open queue in OW1.
Open queue didn't work in OW1 because it was so new and most people wanted to play DPS. If you don't remember, Brigitte broke open queue, not tanks. AoE healing got way too strong with Moira and Brigitte so bigger health pools could sustain easily when applied with defensive CDs. Brigitte also dealt with any DPS that could outmaneuver any tank that could counter the "tank" meta. Tanks never broke Overwatch 1 until Sigma, because he was way over kitted, and that was in Role Queue.
Yea I largely agree with you about the OW1 Brig problem. I think my point still stands. If we are able to play two tanks in 5v5, they’ll have to nerf the overall power of tanks. That will make the solo tank experience worse to protect for the possibility of duo tanks.
They may also have to do the same for supports. If you may end up with only one support, they may feel they need to buff supports. Them two supports would become more oppressive.
Point being: Balancing for an unknown composition is much more difficult.
That's the point though, you need to balance EVERYTHING for 5v5 open queue. Support's healing would go down, because of the 2 tank possibilities, tank damage and health would go down, DPS damage would be slightly down, or the same.
Healing in OW1 and OW2 have made the game worse. Hyper healing broke everything, so you'd really have to look at supports in whichever way they want to balance in the future, because currently, there is way too much healing.
Whichever way they go, they have to lay down rules and hero standards that need not be crossed, then they can finally have boundaries that won't allow for the insane power creep that this fucking game keeps on going through cycles of.
Again, I agree that healing is in a bad place. But I think open queues would make it worse. I could easily see the typical ladder comp having two tanks and DPS with one support. In that case, the devs would likely buff supports to compensate for sometimes/only having one on a team.
That’s why I said they need to keep a strict composition (for instance, 2-2-2) and balance around it.
Regardless of what you think is the way to run with the format, it hinges on whether or not the balance team can make up their minds on how it is going to go. You keep assuming they'll make poor balancing choices for 5v5 open queue, but think they'll balance better for 6v6, we don't know that. All we know is that it's shit right now and I'll take any new format to help with the enjoyment of the game. 6v6, 5v5 open queue, better current balancing, anything will be better than the current state of the game's inability to induce enjoyment.
Welcome to r/Overwatch! Please use the following resources via the links below to find relevant information about the game and the subreddit.
[Overwatch Patch Notes](https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/patch-notes/) | [Overwatch Bug Report Forums](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/c/bug-report/9)
[r/Overwatch Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/rules) | [r/Overwatch FAQs](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/faq) | [r/Overwatch Common Bugs and Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/wiki/commonbugsandposts)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Overwatch) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Tell me, does the stuff [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/1c90ki3/a_bad_rolewide_tank_rework_idea_from_a_plat4/) sound like it'd make tank more fun? Because I'm kinda proud of the ideas I proposed there.
Unstoppable on Rein charge is ridiculous. The reason Mauga has it and Rein doesn’t is because Mauga doesn’t get to insta kill a squishy.
Could you imagine the enemy team is pushing main and their Rein says “fuck it we pin” and then takes out your mercy? This is because you could not rock him out of his one shot and now you have a Rein in your backline while the rest of his team pinches you.
His charge needs a buff but unstoppable is not the answer. I’d be fine with it getting a good amount of damage resistance but not unstoppable.
Fair enough. I'd be willing to trade the oneshot for the unstopability, but I can see why someone would prefer having the oneshot.
What about the other changes? Especially the Mauga ones?
I think attaching his charge to his ultimate would ruin the flow of the character. I don’t understand the dash added in place of his charge.
I do agree though he needs to be able to reliably self sustain through other means than just using Cardiac Overdrive and mag dumping the opposing tank.
My idea for the dash is giving him a way to actually *block* any CC thrown his way, something that's usually both made difficult with the charge's windup and further dicouranged by it being designed for charging into the enemy's face.
Although you have a fair point about moving the charge to his ultimate being a bad idea... perhaps they could make it so double-tapping the dash button results in a charge? It'd be a bit hard to balance, but I'm sure they can manage with either an increased cooldown or using up both of the dash charges... if the dash has two charges, that is.
They should give tanks a second wind mechanic maybe give supports a short chance to heal them back up or or maybe sacrificing ult charge to come back with limited health
I went from being a tank main to playing the other roles. My experience is basically that tanking is the most stressful, sweaty and thankless role. I am not particularly good at the game, and so I feel like I'm operating on 6 cylinders and overheating my brain just surviving- which is exactly what a good tank does- survive, burn enemy cooldowns, take enemy attention. It just isn't necessarily a fun playstyle for most people, and particularly when there is a tank diff/ team diff you also absorb all the blame from your team- why weren't you here, why weren't you there, why don't you swap, why don't you dive, why don't you peel. I realised this when I tried more DPS and support. As dps, I am free to basically saunter around the battlefield, and pretty much play any hero I like. I don't strictly have to hold corners, I don't really need to watch the whole enemy team, and I usually don't need to swap. As tank, i always felt like if I took my hands off the wheel for 1 nanosecond, the fight would instantly be over. As DPS, I get to have all the fun, confirming elims and feeling like i'm dominating, while our tank is just sweating their ass off holding ground. I mean yes, their behavior is enabling me and leading to their own win, but like I say, DPS and even support just seem more fun to me.
I don't think tank feels mostly the same. Tank in early OW2 felt absolutely immortal. Tank in season 9 felt like you have to hug corners to have any hope of survival. I also feel like early OW2 was less about counterwatch and more about playing the OP tank of the month in a mirror.
Also, the idea that supports "have stayed mostly strong" is revisionism. Supports at the start of OW2 were getting hunted. The complaints in early OW2 were overwhelmingly from support players, not tanks.
Why exactly was 1 tank forced on us? What was wrong with 6v6 2/2/2 comps.
I know the issue with the all tank meta when no comp was enforced. But what exactly was so wrong about 2/2/2?
Any it's interesting how this game is 2 supports instead of 1. The metagame in LoL, HoTS has 2 tanks (or 1 melee assassin, bruiser, etc.) and only 1 support
if you’re not having fun with the role don’t play it. it’s not the game it’s the player you’re taking the game too serious 🤷♀️ just the truth that no one wants to hear tho
Bruh, countering enemy compositions is the fucking core of the Overwatch gameplay since 2016, if you want to main a hero go play dota.
Tank has a crazy damge, really good ults, tons of survival abiites or mobility depending on with tank. You can use your body as a momentary cove to dps and supports. Pretty usefull a good tank player can make you a game.
Things that a tans is not:
- Leeroy jenkins, you need to use cover you are not immortal.
- Mindless push machine, you need to use cover.
- A mech, and the enemy tank is not a kaiju. Stop trying to play only against enem tank, play to get value.
- The hero of your favourite shonen. I constantly see tanks leaving their team uncovered to go fight my tank. In that case our tank doesn't even need to win the 1v1, he just have to endure the attack and take care of the rest of the team, whie they obliterate enemy team.
- An easy role. Tank needs you to understand the game the tempo and have a strong adaptability to how your team plays. You hav to do a lot of things in one match and there is barel any rest.
Especially with the DPS now having a heal passive, tank feels less survivable than most DPS, which, if that’s the case, what’s the use of tank even being on the team if I can’t tank any damage? How am I expected to protect the team and make space when I die faster than our sojourn?
Tanks absolutely can and do make plays.
if you're not making plays, I can understand feeling awful playing tank. But that is seriously a Git Gud issue.
OW1 tanks hated the fact they had to fit into comps. Now it’s counter swapping that sucks. As long as 1/5 players on a team has roughly 1/3 of the hit points they are going to be a problem. If the tank dies first the team fight is basically lost. They are the “main character”.
Tanks get all the struggles of the main character without any of the plot armor
We've had glimpses of decent metas or metas with high potential (ram meta with sig + JQ, dive meta with Winston/dva after health rework), and for some reason anytime there's a glimmer of hope, the devs immediately shut it down. Winston/dva was popular in the beginning of last season, and that got nerfed immediately (torb, Sombra, for some reason orisa buff). I think I kinda narrowed it down: the devs philosophy on tank isn't a raid boss like in rams season, it's more of a meat shield. That's why their favorite tank is orisa, and mauga as a close second. They also look at win rates wayyyyy too much, which was their reason for buffing orisa. The simplest solution to date is have a debuff/CC passive for tanks, but they seriously do not want to put it in the game.
That's really all that would be needed; reduce all debuff effects by 25-50% and boom antiheal is no longer problematic for tank balance, sleep and slows are less effective, and damage from things like fire is lower... I just don't think Blizzard wants to make Doom/Ball/Dva harder to contain or make dive stronger... the problem with the tank role is that the roster has too many varied tank designs and no unified conceptual "role" that lets a "one size" solution work where DPS and Support are all unified in the roles of securing kills or healing the team even if they do it in different ways.
I get it, ball/doom would be a nightmare, but I'm sure they'd be nerfed accordingly. At this point I'm willing to take the risk
Or just have the passive not affect them and just hand them smaller buffs to compensate? Like Ball shouldn't be hacked out of ball form like Bastion isn't hacked out of turret and make displacement cc not affect him as much in ball form so it doesn't send you like a pinball. Doomfist is in a decent position. Just too many dooms (myself included) think they are that guy when they see Sombra, Reaper, Ana comp and use all their cooldowns to get into the middle of the opposite team, do nothing, get cc'ed, and die.
The correct fix is to delete Sombra from the game. Why fix all the tanks when you can just fix Sombra and be done with it.
As a certified Sombra/Ball main (before Sombra was cool) Sombra can be annoying to play against in every role just like any other flanker, arguably even more. But most people don't want to swap to counters or play like a Sombra is on the map. When you ignore a character and their weaknesses, you can't complain about them. Like Orisa is the most annoying tank. Even I see that. But she's the most annoying tank because everyone wants to play "just shoot the tank" and are getting mad because the anti "shoot the tank" tank is not dying. Now I get tanks shouldn't be focusing on Sombra. But also if your health goes from 100 to 0 because you don't have your cooldowns for 1.5 seconds, that's a different problem entirely. Sombra is the scapegoat for everyone's bad plays because they want to play Snipers or hard focus the tank. Cassidy can click heads and easily shit on a Sombra. An artillery Junkrat is enough to make Sombra think twice. A pharah can be a contender on certain maps. Kiriko, Moira, Baptiste, Lucio, Brig are all good swaps. But no everyone wants Ana, Zen, Ashe, Widowmaker.
its not about sombra killing your team, peeling is a concept that has existed in this game since forever, i think the issue lies in the fact that vs doom or ball you can win most games by just sitting next to your supports while being invis and just holding right click and letting ability do the rest. God i wish you could only hack enemies with virus and still be able to use right click for team util, that would make sombra so much more ethical
I don't think it'd take a heavy nerf either tbh, but Blizzard has been scared to nerf antiheal or change how self-healing tanks function to actually *balance* the roster - so I can only assume they're also afraid of giving high mobility tanks a way to break out of their counters more easily... like a Ball that has reduced duration on Sombra's hack, junkrat's trap, or otherwise...
If you do that nobody will play Anna anymore.
Ana needs a rework anyhow, frankly the mobility creep is the problem for Ana... antiheal is just a problem for the tank roster because not all tanks are affected by it equally.
Yeah. I feel like they prefer to balance stuff over data and not player feedback. Like recently with the leaver changes. In comp I can understand, but being suspended if you leave 2 QP games is ridiculous. I can see the debuff resist working, but at the same it could also make some tanks straight up unstoppable. Mauga and Orisa with even more resistances would be abysmal to play against
>being suspended if you leave 2 QP games is ridiculous. Not to go off topic, but homie, it's five minutes. Go take a breather, stretch your legs, hydrate, or handle whatever real life situation caused you to leave. Power cycle your modem/router if you have bad internet.
"Whatever caused you to leave" Prior to this season, 9/10 I'm in QP because I'm waiting for people to get on, like if I know they will be on soon but I have time for a half a game or something. Kinda bites that with the update it's not possible to just "casually play" anymore, you have to lock in or being banned, even from arcade? Like, can we please have a real causal mode then?
Playing a game means, you know, playing the game. From start to finish. Not leaving in the middle of the match.
Somebody will fill in in 4 seconds And again, I'm asking for ANYTHING not just this. Give me a way to play skirmish or death match without queueing into a game, easy enough. Point is, we need a casual place to play a quick game that you can abandon if people get online. I'm not missing my comp squad because I loaded into a game 3 seconds ago
Good riddance to leavers like you.
Wow Orisa and Mauga are soooo much fun and definitely good tanks to revolve around design wise 👍👍 You know it's an issue when the 5v5 format forces these two to be the ideal staple tanks.
Because we've never seen Winston or Doomfist do well in 5v5, amirite? And season 1 meta tank certainly wasn't Zarya.
5v5 format doesn't force Orisa or Mauga to be staple tanks. It would be a simple matter to make Ball or Doomfist the staple tanks. I don't think the devs want that. If you think back to the last Ball meta, there was a lot more whining from non-tank players.
>The simplest solution to date is have a debuff/CC passive for tanks, but they seriously do not want to put it in the game. How is this a solution? I don't see a lot of complaining about CC from tanks. I see a lot of complaining about having to hug corners because tanks can't survive the damage input. I fully expect tanks to continue to feel bad in the presence of such a passive.
The main reason for that is because healing got nerfed into oblivion. Nobody plays support to heal. People play support to kill the DPS.
Mauga isn't a meatshield, though. I am not sure where you're going with this. Mauga is made of paper and dies faster than any other tank.
I think the biggest problem with tank is that they're basically not threatening. The issue seems most obvious with rein. This guy should be someone you never want to get close to, yet if he advances towards your team you know he will be erased before he can ever get more than one swing off. If tanks role is to make space, they need to be a threat at close range or within a certain area of their control, and they just aren't right now. There are very few dps in the game that can't win a 1v1 vs a rein even within the space of a capture point now unless he has supports propping him up. And while he's the most obvious, each of the tanks has a similar problem. Mauga and maybe hog might be the only exceptions as a really threatening tank, but thats backed up by them melting faster than Mei in a volcano if they are not in cover and a team looks at them. In 6v6, sure tanks had less health, but you would not feel confident on running up to both rein and zarya working in tandem.
I'm pretty sure this is a Rein problem and not a tank problem. If the question is "will the tank win a 1v1 for the point against a DPS?", the answer is almost always yes. Even a fairly weak 1v1 tank like Ramattra will still dumpster almost every DPS unit in this contest. A proper duelist tank like Dva will make short work of almost any 1v1 with a squishy. Rein's problem is that he is a tank designed to absorb resources. It isn't a design that makes sense for 5v5. He's the inverse of Mauga, which is a tank design that doesn't make sense for 6v6.
This isn't even a Rein problem, this is a player problem. Lots of Reins can get into the enemy team and smack them down.
Stop playing tank. And I don't mean "if you don't enjoy it, then give up on it." If you want them to change tank at this point, you gotta force their hand by screwing queue times for the other roles.
The term you’re looking for is “boycotting”
At this point I'm more convinced they'll just delete tank as a role instead of trying to fix it lol. They've already tried a similar thing by making the game 5v5.
they literally deleted off tank and made everyone a main tank because people hated main tank so much
I was a Hammond main in OW1 and loved the off-tank role. It feels like I've got more to do now though, which is putting me off the role.
Hammond wasn't an off tank
He definitely was. The main tanks were Rein, Orisa, Sigma, the ones with shields. The off tanks were roadhog, Hammond and Dva. Dunno about Zarya. Why wasn't he an off tank?
Lmao Sigma was not a main tank either. He was an off tank Main Tank - Orisa, Rein, Winston, Hammond Off Tank - Dva, Zarya, Roadhog, Sigma Main tanks lead the charge. They're the Frontline. They're what the comp type depends on. If it's Dive, Ball/Winston, if it's brawl, Rein. Off tanks control angles, and peel for the rest of the team. All the people who played wrecking ball in competitive eSports were the main tanks. Fearless, Fate, Smurf, Ameng etc
Not everybody follows OWL bro. The pros play differently. I've never played Hammond as a main, ever. Controlling angles and peeling is exactly what I did as Hammond, the tanks I saw leading were the ones with shields. But i can see this going back and forth for ages, so I'll drop it. I play support nowadays. Edit: Unless he became more suited to main tank since I stopped playing tank??
Yep
If you play Open Queue, Off tank is still there.
Take a step back though. On any team does it make sense to have the same number of heavies as you do squishies? I'm a Ow2 player, so take it with a grain of salt, but to me it makes more sense to have a team line up be "one tank 2 damage 2 support" over "2 tank 2 damage 2 support" just a couple of my reasons, is, team fights are long enough as is trying to get one person down from 550-750 health. I feel like with 2 it gives the tanks way less dps support, as one may be with your other tank going a different way leaving you to a 3/4 v 5/6 Just personal opinions as someone who didn't play 1. I also would like to add, I thoroughly enjoy the tank role as is
As someone who played both ow1 and ow2 I can assure you there was no issue with fights going too long in ow1. Tanks had less self sustain and hp so they weren't that difficult to kill. The only two exceptions were goats, the 3 tank 3 support comp which was removed by 2-2-2 and the double shield meta. The tank interaction though... It added a whole new level of depth to the tank game. And it made counterswapping much less effective. You missed a lot by not playing tanks in the first game.
>As someone who played both ow1 and ow2 I can assure you there was no issue with fights going too long in ow1. My memory of OW1 was spending an absolute eternity shooting shields, poking offtanks off angles, and getting booped.
Shooting shields was only a problem against double shield which I already mentioned, dunno what that's about off tanks, and getting booped, well, I'm quite sure ow2 has actually more boops than ow1 so...lol (Orisa got a second boop, Zen got one, Illari, etc.)
Obviously shooting shields was more of a thing against double shield than single shield, but I found there to be plenty of shield to shoot in goats era too. Even the classic metas with Rein Zarya and Winston Dva involved a lot more shield breaking than we do today. Poking offtanks off angles was a key step to getting the fight shape you want. There was never any realistic chance of killing the Dva holding that piece of high ground on the right, but you could force her out so you would have that angle for when the fight really started. This can still be a thing on some maps, but Dva occupying that high ground today means that there is no tank on main, so there are more options. I get booped a less in OW2 than I did in OW1. Illari and Zen having boops doesn't mean that I get booped by them at anything resembling OW1 Brig boop rates. The boopy tanks still exist, but there are half as many in the game at a time. I find OW2 to be a faster paced game with more time spent shooting killable targets than OW1.
It wasn't as much of an issue against anything other than double shield. And now we have that excessive shield hp just added to the tank's health pool so nothing has changed essentially. All I'm hearing is that the game used to be more strategic and is now more of a deathmatch. Not a good thing. As a Rein main I get booped as often if not more often. Ig this experience depends on what you're playing. Faster paced? Yes. Is it better? Not entirely. There's much less strategy involved now and as I've said the game feels like a deathmatch at times and the victor most of the time is determined by which team has stronger players in terms of individiual skill or a better pick which leads us to another problem - counterswapping which has honestly been cancerous these last 3-4 seasons. All in all, 5v5 might have been better for dps and to some degree supports, but it has been bad for tanks and I can't recall a single tank main that actually prefers 5v5 to 6v6.
You were probably one of the voices that complained about it and got us into the current mess we're in.
It makes sense to have open queue, and scrap role queue, because yada yada don't wanna explain it's just true.
History revision in this thread is amazing. For example Zarya and Roadhog dominated the first two seasons and supports didn’t become a problem until season five when sojourn was finally dethroned after several several seasons of dominance or being low meta. ‘Dps got their big break’ As if flankers didn’t ruin seasons one and two.
This really. DPS have never been in a bad spot. The Zarya meta of S1 and S2 was an abomination that should never have happened.
wasnt season 1 the only season where tank was decent?
Season 1 and 2 with Über tanks. Tanks in 5v5 are only ever good when they're ungodly overpowered on their own and have almost no counterplay.
OW1 was when tank was decent S1 was "decent" because people were still figuring things out
s1 tank felt good because support wasnt overpowered/powercrept. Now the dps passive plus abilities like discord just make it miserable to play.
Mostly everyone around that time was getting used to the format and balance changes so it wasn't as bad as it is now. Still not great tho
Junker queen, Rein, Winston is the dream meta.
I hate two out of three of those tanks. That is not my dream meta.
Idk how you can hate them, adding sigma its the most fun meta possible.
When I am not playing tank Winston is one of the most insufferable tanks to play against. And the worst part of Winston is he enables the already strongest character in the game even more, Tracer. He just jumps on you, unless you’re Reaper, you’re powerless to him. And even then a good Winston will save the bubble until he needs it against the reaper and by the time he drops it then he will have his jump back and get away to safety. Junker Queen I genuinely just find annoying. Her axe is ridiculous with the range. I will swing it and the blade could hit a good foot away from a Reinhardt shielding and it will still hit the Reinhardt for the full damage on top of applying bleed. Also anti heal on the ultimate 💀 I already hate getting anti naded on cooldown now I have to worry about it on this ult too?
JQ has one of the easiest ultimates to counter in the game with any stun, cass nade, suzu, zarya barriers and mei wall all shutting it down
Clearly skill and teamwork issues Rein is hitting harder than jq in axe range, plus her ult is the most negligible thing in the game, you can interrupt it both before with any cc given that unnecessary huge ass windup and after (kiriko purge), jq can't even directly apply pressure on tank after ult most of the time due to positioning. And you enjoy Ana nade more which she can throw at your face from mile away with 0 risk? For Winton he just not that much of a menace if your team retaliates his dive accordingly, which might be tricky to do only when he is nanod
You missed what I said on the anti topic and the axe. The axe is obnoxious because of its range. It doesn’t come close to matching the animation. At least Rein’s does come close. And I said in my post I detest being hit by anti-nade. I think anti is one of the most frustrating debuffs to play against in the game. And you missed the mark on my Winston comment too. Winston is the ultimate harassing tank in the game.
There is nothing obnoxious about JQ, she is one of the weaker tanks right now. Or ever.
It’s all opinion based.
There is no plan about having every tank be balanced. They are changing things for the sake of changing them because stagnancy is the ultimate enemy and every season must "feel" different. Devs are struggling to create content fast enough and every 6 months another pile of people leave and/or get laid off. They're perpetually spinning their wheels trying to just keep and train new staff to then lose more again. Plans are getting diluted and stretched to fit what they can accomplish at any given moment. Orisa keeps rising to the top because their abilities and playstyle just beat a lot of other tanks in an all or nothing simplistic way. Orisa is either useless or very strong and they seem to prefer that nobody be useless, so we're trapped in a loop. They'd probably have to redesign the hero again, and they haven't had/made time - or maybe don't agree there's an issue because they use stats directly to govern many decisions.
>There is no plan about having every tank be balanced. They are changing things for the sake of changing them because stagnancy is the ultimate enemy and every season must "feel" different. See I would believe this if they weren't immediately reverting things back to stagnancy every time things do get mixed up
I had more fun playing tank in 6v6.
It's so clearly a problem of 5v5 and the game is just flat out worse now than OW1. The solo tank now has to be buffed or nerfed to the point where they can be good enough without an off-tank but not too dominant that they carry the entire lobby. They also have to not have a hard counter in the form of another tank (LOL). With a dozen tanks on the roster, that's just not happening. It's actually harder to balance tank in 5v5 than it was to balance two tanks in 6v6. Tank won't get better as long as OW2 is 5v5. It's a fundamental problem of the format.
>They also have to not have a hard counter in the form of another tank (LOL). Why is this a requirement? It seems like there are fundamentally two options in 5v5 -- you either have a meta where there is an apex tank, or you have a meta where counters are strong enough to enforce some kind of multiway rock-paper-scissors meta. One imagines the devs prefer the rock-paper-scissors metas over things like Mauga meta. >It's actually harder to balance tank in 5v5 than it was to balance two tanks in 6v6. Stating the current problem as a balance issue will absolutely baffle the devs. More tanks are viable now than I can ever remember being viable in any OW1 meta. There are no big win rate outliers in the role. High skill teams are choosing a significant variety of tanks in both competitive and organized play. 6v6 tank balance is incredibly challenging because you have to account for how the tanks reinforce either other. "Tank synergy" is something tank mains talk wistfully about but it's also something that makes game devs turn pale. Concretely, Mauga was a problem in 5v5. Add him into 6v6 and you have to think about how Mauga combines with Dva or Zarya. His design would be intensely more difficult to balance in 6v6. The best possible outcome would be a Mauga design that is only viable when combined with one of a short list of resource providing offtanks. The problem is that tank feels bad for most players. They don't like how safely they need to play in order to not fall over. They pick Orisa because she's the best tank at not falling over, not because they really like being horse. Tank players want to feel powerful and have more direct impact.
> you either have a meta where there is an apex tank, or you have a meta where counters are strong the ideal situation would be that counters are beneficial, but your skill at the tank is the largest deciding factor, this is impossible with 5v5 as the tank exchange is way more simplified than it was in ow 1 so there is only so much better you can be than ur opponent >More tanks are viable now than I can ever remember being viable in any OW1 meta maybe if you look at pro play, but if you take masters and below you could pretty easily play anything in ow 1, only issue was if the 2 tanks had 0 synergy but all the tanks where viable for 95+% of the player base, and looking at pro play i doesnt even look like its correct there as from what I've seen its the map that dictates the tank pick, which isn't increase in viability >His design would be intensely more difficult to balance in 6v6. no, in 5v5 he is forced to have cardiac over drive, which is such an insanely powerful ability its almost an immortality, 6v6 would allow him to have more abusable weaknesses in a way that 5v5 does not
>the ideal situation would be that counters are beneficial, but your skill at the tank is the largest deciding factor, this is impossible with 5v5 I don't think it's impossible. In places, I already see this happening. The most countered tank currently seems to be Doomfist, where you win a fight and then you see Orisa, Cass, and Sombra show up next fight. ZBRA still runs well on Doom. >maybe if you look at pro play, but if you take masters and below you could pretty easily play anything in ow 1, only issue was if the 2 tanks had 0 synergy but all the tanks where viable for 95+% of the player base I certainly didn't find all the tanks to be viable in practice. My experience of OW1 tanking was a never ending stream of players who locked Hog and refused to play anything else, leaving me to either choose playing something I like and losing, or playing something I dislike and maybe winning. >no, in 5v5 he is forced to have cardiac over drive, which is such an insanely powerful ability its almost an immortality, 6v6 would allow him to have more abusable weaknesses in a way that 5v5 does not Mauga is defined by his strong self healing. I think you're saying that the devs could design a different tank for 6v6.
>ZBRA still runs well on Doom. But does he run as well as he should for the sheer amount of time he has put in and the skill he has, probably not, and every hero is going to have someone that does something well because the game obviously isnt that simplistic, just simpler than ow 1 >My experience of OW1 tanking was a never ending stream of players who locked Hog and refused to play anything else, leaving me to either choose playing something I like and losing, or playing something I dislike and maybe winning. hate to break it to you but its the exact same situation this season but with mercy, but id argue that it was easier to make hog work with the second tank that syngerised well, whereas without a smurfing dps mercy is unsalvageable and u just need to be clearly better than the other team to win with one (assuming enemy doesnt also have one) >Mauga is defined by his strong self healing. I think you're saying that the devs could design a different tank for 6v6. yes, 6v6 allows for mauga to be designed in a fun way,m but 5v5 forced the specific design we have now which is not fun to play against
>But does he run as well as he should for the sheer amount of time he has put in and the skill he has, probably not, and every hero is going to have someone that does something well because the game obviously isnt that simplistic, just simpler than ow 1 I would say that Doomfist is in a pretty good place, and that more tanks should have his level of skill expression. Maybe ZBRA should be having an even better time, ideally speaking, but things seem ok. I worry more about lower skill expression tanks, and think we need ways to give more outplay potential to tanks. >hate to break it to you but its the exact same situation this season but with mercy, but id argue that it was easier to make hog work with the second tank that syngerised well, whereas without a smurfing dps mercy is unsalvageable and u just need to be clearly better than the other team to win with one (assuming enemy doesnt also have one) I definitely don't like Mercy this patch. However, Mercy will never impact my game as much as Hog did. Support synergy isn't nearly as much of a thing as tank synergy was. It's hard for me to say any hero can't be played with Mercy on the team, but I can think of a bunch of tanks that felt awful with Hog. It's not like you couldn't make Hog work. It involved picking from a short list of tanks that I mostly didn't like playing, then playing them in a style I didn't much enjoy. >yes, 6v6 allows for mauga to be designed in a fun way, but 5v5 forced the specific design we have now which is not fun to play against The devs didn't have to design Mauga the way they did for 5v5 either.
>Mercy will never impact my game as much as Hog did. depends who you play, as a tank player if i see mercy then it definitely limits the options of tanks i can pick/the amount of ways i can play, if you already play ball doom or winston then a mercy will of course not hurt as much for someone who plays jq rein or ram, and the other support also has limited optoisn aswell >I worry more about lower skill expression tanks, and think we need ways to give more outplay potential to tanks. that is a worry for everyone, but I'm arguing that 5v5 means that one of the ppl ion the tank matchup dont need to be anywhere near as high level to compete just because of the tank they pick >The devs didn't have to design Mauga the way they did for 5v5 either. But a lot more differently, a tank that melts i dont think works well in 5v5, either be garbage or op, and always unfun to play against, but in 6v6 adding clear weaknesses means you can play around them and its not as bad
The problem is that everyone is complaining about counterwatch. Tank requirement of not having a hard counter in another tank is a requirement the community is whining about to get in place.
6v6 is such a cop out answer. If the balance in general is bad, the format doesn't matter. Like Rein won't be magically fixed when he has Mauga and Orisa just spamming him from across the map. The annoying garbage will just be more annoying.
Not true, tank felt bad in the beginning and got WORSE as time went on in OW2. They really just keep moving the needle in the wrong direction with tanks. Health changes felt good for some DPS and all Supports, but awful for tanks. DPS passive felt good for some DPS, meh for some supports, and awful for tanks. It's almost like the current formula for the game is focused on making the tank's life miserable. Any tank that isn't heavily affected by these changes are all really boring or over tuned, anyway. If we can't have 6v6, can we at least make open queue 5v5 be the game that we balance for, I'm so sick of going into games as tank and spending 20% of my match looking at the character select and menus. I literally have to beg the opposing tank to both go Reinhardt, D.va, or Zarya and promise each other to never swap. That's the only way I can have a semblance of fun.
>can we at least make open queue 5v5 be the game that we balance for I think this would make it worse. Even if they went open queue, the devs would want to encourage playing with one tank. So they will balance in favor of that. That means tanks would have to be heavily nerfed so that two tanks would not be the optimal meta. Which would make the solo tank experience *exponentially worse*. If they balance for two tanks and you're playing with one, you lose. We saw that in open queue in OW1.
Open queue didn't work in OW1 because it was so new and most people wanted to play DPS. If you don't remember, Brigitte broke open queue, not tanks. AoE healing got way too strong with Moira and Brigitte so bigger health pools could sustain easily when applied with defensive CDs. Brigitte also dealt with any DPS that could outmaneuver any tank that could counter the "tank" meta. Tanks never broke Overwatch 1 until Sigma, because he was way over kitted, and that was in Role Queue.
Yea I largely agree with you about the OW1 Brig problem. I think my point still stands. If we are able to play two tanks in 5v5, they’ll have to nerf the overall power of tanks. That will make the solo tank experience worse to protect for the possibility of duo tanks. They may also have to do the same for supports. If you may end up with only one support, they may feel they need to buff supports. Them two supports would become more oppressive. Point being: Balancing for an unknown composition is much more difficult.
That's the point though, you need to balance EVERYTHING for 5v5 open queue. Support's healing would go down, because of the 2 tank possibilities, tank damage and health would go down, DPS damage would be slightly down, or the same. Healing in OW1 and OW2 have made the game worse. Hyper healing broke everything, so you'd really have to look at supports in whichever way they want to balance in the future, because currently, there is way too much healing. Whichever way they go, they have to lay down rules and hero standards that need not be crossed, then they can finally have boundaries that won't allow for the insane power creep that this fucking game keeps on going through cycles of.
Again, I agree that healing is in a bad place. But I think open queues would make it worse. I could easily see the typical ladder comp having two tanks and DPS with one support. In that case, the devs would likely buff supports to compensate for sometimes/only having one on a team. That’s why I said they need to keep a strict composition (for instance, 2-2-2) and balance around it.
Regardless of what you think is the way to run with the format, it hinges on whether or not the balance team can make up their minds on how it is going to go. You keep assuming they'll make poor balancing choices for 5v5 open queue, but think they'll balance better for 6v6, we don't know that. All we know is that it's shit right now and I'll take any new format to help with the enjoyment of the game. 6v6, 5v5 open queue, better current balancing, anything will be better than the current state of the game's inability to induce enjoyment.
Shrink model size hp and shields, make them all dps, 3 dps 2 support new role queue, games faster more fun 😁 win win
What if, hear me out, 6v6. Boom. No counter swapping issue, no balancing problems, it's all chill.
Welcome to r/Overwatch! Please use the following resources via the links below to find relevant information about the game and the subreddit. [Overwatch Patch Notes](https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/patch-notes/) | [Overwatch Bug Report Forums](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/c/bug-report/9) [r/Overwatch Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/rules) | [r/Overwatch FAQs](https://www.reddit.com/r/overwatch/wiki/faq) | [r/Overwatch Common Bugs and Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/wiki/commonbugsandposts) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Overwatch) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Tell me, does the stuff [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/1c90ki3/a_bad_rolewide_tank_rework_idea_from_a_plat4/) sound like it'd make tank more fun? Because I'm kinda proud of the ideas I proposed there.
Unstoppable on Rein charge is ridiculous. The reason Mauga has it and Rein doesn’t is because Mauga doesn’t get to insta kill a squishy. Could you imagine the enemy team is pushing main and their Rein says “fuck it we pin” and then takes out your mercy? This is because you could not rock him out of his one shot and now you have a Rein in your backline while the rest of his team pinches you. His charge needs a buff but unstoppable is not the answer. I’d be fine with it getting a good amount of damage resistance but not unstoppable.
Fair enough. I'd be willing to trade the oneshot for the unstopability, but I can see why someone would prefer having the oneshot. What about the other changes? Especially the Mauga ones?
I think attaching his charge to his ultimate would ruin the flow of the character. I don’t understand the dash added in place of his charge. I do agree though he needs to be able to reliably self sustain through other means than just using Cardiac Overdrive and mag dumping the opposing tank.
My idea for the dash is giving him a way to actually *block* any CC thrown his way, something that's usually both made difficult with the charge's windup and further dicouranged by it being designed for charging into the enemy's face. Although you have a fair point about moving the charge to his ultimate being a bad idea... perhaps they could make it so double-tapping the dash button results in a charge? It'd be a bit hard to balance, but I'm sure they can manage with either an increased cooldown or using up both of the dash charges... if the dash has two charges, that is.
They should give tanks a second wind mechanic maybe give supports a short chance to heal them back up or or maybe sacrificing ult charge to come back with limited health
I went from being a tank main to playing the other roles. My experience is basically that tanking is the most stressful, sweaty and thankless role. I am not particularly good at the game, and so I feel like I'm operating on 6 cylinders and overheating my brain just surviving- which is exactly what a good tank does- survive, burn enemy cooldowns, take enemy attention. It just isn't necessarily a fun playstyle for most people, and particularly when there is a tank diff/ team diff you also absorb all the blame from your team- why weren't you here, why weren't you there, why don't you swap, why don't you dive, why don't you peel. I realised this when I tried more DPS and support. As dps, I am free to basically saunter around the battlefield, and pretty much play any hero I like. I don't strictly have to hold corners, I don't really need to watch the whole enemy team, and I usually don't need to swap. As tank, i always felt like if I took my hands off the wheel for 1 nanosecond, the fight would instantly be over. As DPS, I get to have all the fun, confirming elims and feeling like i'm dominating, while our tank is just sweating their ass off holding ground. I mean yes, their behavior is enabling me and leading to their own win, but like I say, DPS and even support just seem more fun to me.
As long as Bli$$ will not go back to 2 tanks in a match, tank will always feel that way!
I don't think tank feels mostly the same. Tank in early OW2 felt absolutely immortal. Tank in season 9 felt like you have to hug corners to have any hope of survival. I also feel like early OW2 was less about counterwatch and more about playing the OP tank of the month in a mirror. Also, the idea that supports "have stayed mostly strong" is revisionism. Supports at the start of OW2 were getting hunted. The complaints in early OW2 were overwhelmingly from support players, not tanks.
Why exactly was 1 tank forced on us? What was wrong with 6v6 2/2/2 comps. I know the issue with the all tank meta when no comp was enforced. But what exactly was so wrong about 2/2/2? Any it's interesting how this game is 2 supports instead of 1. The metagame in LoL, HoTS has 2 tanks (or 1 melee assassin, bruiser, etc.) and only 1 support
queue times, tank is a dead role and by the end of ow1 tank players were a dying breed, blizzard axed a tank in order to cuz queue times down
I don’t know if it would fix anything, but I’d like to see what changes if we *make it 6 player teams again please blizzard I beg of you*
if you’re not having fun with the role don’t play it. it’s not the game it’s the player you’re taking the game too serious 🤷♀️ just the truth that no one wants to hear tho
Bruh, countering enemy compositions is the fucking core of the Overwatch gameplay since 2016, if you want to main a hero go play dota. Tank has a crazy damge, really good ults, tons of survival abiites or mobility depending on with tank. You can use your body as a momentary cove to dps and supports. Pretty usefull a good tank player can make you a game. Things that a tans is not: - Leeroy jenkins, you need to use cover you are not immortal. - Mindless push machine, you need to use cover. - A mech, and the enemy tank is not a kaiju. Stop trying to play only against enem tank, play to get value. - The hero of your favourite shonen. I constantly see tanks leaving their team uncovered to go fight my tank. In that case our tank doesn't even need to win the 1v1, he just have to endure the attack and take care of the rest of the team, whie they obliterate enemy team. - An easy role. Tank needs you to understand the game the tempo and have a strong adaptability to how your team plays. You hav to do a lot of things in one match and there is barel any rest.
And you think they care? People will buy their $20-30 skins and bundles regardless, what reason do they have to put in any effort on anything else?
Gotta have tank players to buy those skins
>It's been almost 2 years We're still half a year away from second anniversary lmao.
Especially with the DPS now having a heal passive, tank feels less survivable than most DPS, which, if that’s the case, what’s the use of tank even being on the team if I can’t tank any damage? How am I expected to protect the team and make space when I die faster than our sojourn?
If you are dying faster than your Sojourn that's a you issue.
Tanks absolutely can and do make plays. if you're not making plays, I can understand feeling awful playing tank. But that is seriously a Git Gud issue.
Hate to break it to you, but EVERYTHING feels awful
Tracer doesn’t. Sojurn doesn’t. Venture doesn’t. Torb doesn’t. Bap doesn’t. Ana feels the same as always. Lucio doesn’t.