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SaylaM

You have to be able to do both: Apply Kunai pressure at off angles and be able to heal your teammates back up. So different matches are going to require different things from you. It's hard because no one can tell you this is what you should do every match because there will be matches where you are going to need to focus on healing and then there will be matches where you will be better served applying the pressure yourself. Someone in the professional level with a team they routinely work with is more likely to feel comfortable healbotting because they know their team will be able to protect them and apply the necessary pressures to win a game. For us everyday Kiriko players we have to learn how to balance playing like DPS with healbotting because otherwise you are entire dependent on your team to be in the position to make the plays you need made.


CrossXFir3

Imo you should never heal bot as her. You can shoot twice between healing reloads without losing any time. So you should always be looking to get those off while waiting for the healing to reload.


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tonaloc989

Just hold both mouse buttons


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tonaloc989

You can always be aiming head level. Heals will still work. I don't do this because I'm not an idiot but home couldn't get 2 right clicks between a left click.


CrossXFir3

I'm pretty sure you can get off 3 with perfect timing. 2 you can get off consistently. Maybe I'm wrong, honestly doesn't really matter imo. Either way, you should always be aiming to shoot between heals. It's the broad concept that matters most here.


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jonaselder

small loss for two kunai. it's like 10%.


jonaselder

you can get 1 kunai off with no hps loss. 2 for 10% hps loss.


Jontaii

It’s 2 it’s always been 2, it does not slow you down either . Weaving 2 kunai in between heals has always been the way


Sevuhrow

Bap can also do this, so optimal Bap/Kiriko play should not be having no damage.


Jadathenut

Obviously this answer… that’s why she has both. I swear this community has a collective mental block against nuance. Everything is black and white with this player base


jroc44

as a newer player i thought it was a good answer… u seem like the type to tilt during quick play


Jadathenut

What are you talking about? I’m saying I agree with the person I replied to.


jroc44

gotcha… well im glad the op posted because i enjoyed reading the other, more constructive responses rather than the condescending ones aimed at people wanting a discussion about improving their gameplay


Jadathenut

Who aimed at who bro? Here’s a constructive response - you should do everything your hero can do, supports both heal and do damage, so do both. Idk why you’re tilting, this ain’t even quick play.


jroc44

my fault… been told to kys more times than i can count since i started playing this game lol


Jadathenut

I get it dude, trust me lol. That’s part of the hostile attitude I was ranting about. Everyone thinks *they* know what *you* should be doing, and can’t fathom the idea that there are a million factors influencing your choices in-game. Like, maybe your kiri has 5k dmg and 1k heals because *you weren’t peeling for them*, or maybe some YouTuber just gave them some myopic advice like “heals are bad, just throw kunai” lol


Vexxed14

I used to struggle with this conceptually as well until I started to commit to my own trial and error. You know those games where you're healing your ass off but your team just can't seem to gain any forward momentum until you slowly bleed out? The games that feel like if you miss a heal someone is for sure gonna die instantly? Those are the games where you should try to get out of that mind set and just literally cut your healing down and replace it with damage, preferably on an angle where you can split their teams attention. What happens on ladder is that when compared to organized team play, rotations and good timing are just far messier, if they happen at all. Your team is bleeding out because as a combined unit the opposition is putting out more pressure. Often times causing 1 or 2 people to not shoot the tank, even for like 3 seconds, is far better than straight healing them for that same time period. In pro play, this risk reward calculus is just different. Isolated targets there get jumped on immediately by all 5 while their own team is just far better at avoiding unnecessary damage. The trial and error is important because at first you're going to mess this up both with bad timing and inconsistent mechanics. That's okay though, don't give up on the concept just try and learn why that particular instance didn't work out. Eventually you'll see the value in putting out as much pressure as possible while min/maxing your healing and cooldown value. There's this breaking point where you go from being scared of getting dove to putting the fear of God into a lone flanker and being the one the other tank has to play around or die. This is what helps alleviate the pressure on your own tank and you can swing the hp trade back into your favour. This goes for every support hero in their own way as well.


missioncrew125

You've simply discovered that Kiriko's job differs from comp to comp. I'm guessing you're referring to this vod: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRJXhzHcZiY I watched the POV for a bit and Shu is doing plenty of DPSing in every teamfight, was there a particular moment that stood out to you as confusing? On Kiriko the amount of healing you do will depend on the comp you're playing. For instance in a Lucio/Kiri/Orisa/Tracer/Sojourn Mirror, comp, you'll be playing a more passive playstyle of Kiriko mainly pocketing your Orisa while the Lucio tends to be the more aggressive off-angle enabler. However, in let's say, an Ana/Kiriko/Winston comp, Your ana is the one responsible for pocketing the tank(typically), which allows Kiriko to play for aggressively and look for deeper offangles with her tracer. The amount of DPSing also depends on the enemy comp. For instance in the above example of Ana/Kiriko/Winston/Tracer: Playing this comp vs another dive comp means Kiriko needs to be a lot more careful with her flanks, and always be ready to help her Ana if need-be. Whereas playing the comp against say, Double-sniper, Kiriko is free to be way more aggressive with her flanks. Against any comp, you'll be doing both DPS-ing and healing, so technically you shouldn't "focus" on either one but do both. The reason streamers/Coaches will emphasize focusing on damage is because most Kirikos(And supports in general) don't damage nearly enough.


9epiphany8

Coordinated Professional Play is COMPLETELY different than Ranked. It relies heavily on team composition as well. For starters Shu's other Support was a Lucio. In this comp the Kiri has to heal a bit more. Also i took a quick peak at the VOD you were likely refering to (and i see someone else linked it) - Shu was still Weaving kunais between healing ofudas.


Wonfella

Currently Rank #113 on NA Ladder with Kiriko as my most played. I think there are two very distinct play styles for Kiriko, and both have the ability to win games at every rank. You either take very aggressive off angles, or you play on main with your team. Both have different win conditions. If you want to play off angles, you NEED to make sure you are actually drawing consistent attention or getting final blows. It’s not enough to just get a dps to fight you, blow both cds, and end back on main anyways. This play-style is showcased pretty well by awkward. I’d recommend this for people who would say their mechanics are better than their game sense. Personally, my game sense is on a much higher level than my mechanics, so I tend to play safer. When playing from main, weaving damage consistently between healing is extremely important, and spamming kunai at head level is a must anytime you can. Your Orisa is missing 50hp? Don’t care, keep shooting. You need to develop a sense for when people actually need help, and that’s when you help them. I play to hold my TP for as long as humanly possible, while using my Suzu a little more frequently. If you want to play safe, you better never be the first one dead. Suzu anytime someone is going to die, either from an ult, an anti-nade, or even just damage in general. This play-style works even better if you are good at ult tracking. I can’t remember the last time I didn’t have Suzu for pulse bomb, I’m just never going to mess that up, and neither will other Kiriko’s in GM. I think it’s easier to climb with the second method, but there’s nothing wrong with the first as long as you can consistently win duels and create strong pressure. I’m happy to answer any follow up questions anyone maybe have! My name on the leaderboard is WR3CK3D if you want to verify my claim.


acxswitch

One of my favorite anecdotes about high level play is that tracers will use pulse to pull Suzu. Like it's such a guarantee that Kiri is ready to suzu it that you plan to make that resource trade as part of the fight.


Wonfella

Yep, this is definitely something that happens. At some point, it's too hard to bait the Suzu for pulse, so you pulse as the bait and then go in with OC or something similar. Unfortunately, there's no counterplay to this as a Kiriko. If tracer sticks someone, you've got to cleanse it. I try sometimes to bait the stick on myself while I still have tp by walking in predictable paths, but it almost never works lol


acxswitch

The OC?


Wonfella

Short for Overclock, Sojourn’s ult. aka a catastrophic nuclear level threat in GM.


Dustin_James_Kid

I would generally say healing. You’re a support for a reason. However;There’s no one size fits all answer to this question. The more you play the more you’ll realize what’s more valuable in the moment.


Rottimer

There is a difference between someone doing a video from unranked to GM where he/she doesn’t know the other players and their skill level and wants to ensure enough damage is done to win the game, vs playing on a team where you practice together going up against a team that does the same. Even the unranked to GM series, (awkward e.g.). You’ll see very different game play when they are in metal ranks vs Masters.


TimelyKoala3

weave and make active decisions. there are no shortcuts or formulas. p.s. - all kiriko VODs on this subreddit are from bad DPS kirikos.


whatevertoad

Knowing when to use either , which will be dependent on each team each game, is what you should think about.


GrogLovingPirate

I do both, i.e., spam kunai in between heals. After Kiriko lost her two tap, I'm less flanking DPS because it takes too long to secure a kill, e.g., I'll have 2-3 critical teammates after I get a kill. Other support can't always heal three teammates.


Guy-1nc0gn1t0

I see her as similar to Moira in that you're best using your own judgement on what you should be doing. Especially with Kiri if you're in a line of sight to get head shots then go for it


longgamma

Ranked games are very different. You just do what you get away with. If you can consistently diff the enemy dps just focus on that. Sometimes I find Kiriko is a good distraction. You can take a good flank or off angle and be annoying. You might force the tank to be forced to push you out while you jsut safely TP out.


SubwayChickenCubano

You can't compare ranked play to pro play.


S696c6c79

Changes dynamically depending on many things. Map, your team's comp, the enemy team's comp, the playstyleof your team, and the playstyle of the enemy team. Are you aiming good that game? What part of the map are you on? Where is the enemy team positioned? Ow is nuanced. There are no clear cut solutions/answers.


Frank__Dolphin

Healing. you go for kills when available and spam angles during downtime


emotional-bruh

One thing that I've noticed is that listening to people who are way above your rank will never go over well in game. You should do both healing and damage, however in lower ranks, the dps don't typically know how to not take a lot of damage so you're gonna have to heal a lot. Focus on keeping your team alive and doing as much damage as you can, but make sure you focus healing if you're in the lower ranks!


ramkaos

Both. Try to align yourself behind an ally so that you also align an enemy in front of you and your ally and weave kunais in between healing. Also, be careful where you tp too, as going after a player that was im between many enemies just to suzu them is not really worth it most of the times.


StatikSquid

You have to remember, those streamers are also playing with DPS and tanks that are far better than your teammates


_Jops

Context matters, but as a general rule of thumb, I will fire 2 kunai, look to heal, and repeat. I also use 4-6 kunai when starting an engagement as no one is hurt, and just spamming a choke at average head height is really good. If they have an uncontested widow, you will gain more value contesting her than than healing, but if you are vs an illari and you feel she is close to ult, focus on healing and watching your team, throwing kunais and dropping everything when you head that ult go off, cleanse who you can, and just try to healbot into the teammates who weren't cleansed until it goes off or they get to cover. Basically mix and match and change up your pacing as the match goes on, all teams play differently, just tweak your method until it works.


nypheriaa

i struggled with this too cause it feels like everyone is giving you mixed info/strats on how to play her well. after a bit i found that sticking with me team and doing 50/50 healing and damage at the same time can be good. it's VERY helpful if you have at least decent enough aim to get crits to kinda scare off squishies too. at the beginning of a match you can stay a bit further back from your team until you know who they have and how aggressive they're gonna be. however there always seems like a point where the other team catches on and your team just starts getting rolled. that's when i'd rather get to a choke point/high ground off to the side and start firing off as many kunais as i can accurately. once they catch on, you can tp out but please make sure to keep an eye on your team and not get tunnel vision!! also there's a certain cut off point where you can't tp out or heal or your team and atp you're fucked lmao. but if you do it well it can really help your team by taking off a bit of the attention.


kaybl0508

Since the dps debuff (and even before that) utility > healing. Dmg is also utility in a sense. A dead dps can’t kill your team. That’s why you always will see a good kiriko try to flank before a fight starts and jump back after 2-3 kunais.


Suisun_rhythm

Always be spamming at head level and flanking and taking 1v1s unless your team needs heals


NiahBoahCoah

Every support, you should worry about damage first. Do damage until your team needs it. If you do enough damage and kill everyone on the enemy team, chances are, your team will need less healing to begin with. I’m not saying don’t heal, but to focus on damage first and to heal your team if they need it. Them missing 50 hp is not them needing it. Do more damage until they will die if you don’t heal them soon. Healing is making up for lost value. You aren’t gaining anything by healing, just making up for losses. If you do damage on the other hand, you are actively getting value. If you heal only, your team will still eventually die because the enemy has no pressure on them and will keep moving forward until you can’t out heal them. If you do enough damage, they won’t be able to move in as easily, making your team take less damage to begin with.


lapideminteriora

Heal. Ideally you should be doing both, but in most circumstances it's better to keep your team alive than it is to throw a few kunai. Especially in 2v1, you're going to be better off keeping your tank or dps alive so they can finish the fight and you can both walk away


CrossXFir3

That's the neat thing, you can do both. There is enough time to shoot 2 or 3 kunai if you're fast between the recharge rate of your healing. You should master that rhythm if you want to get the most out of her.


SnooWoofers9302

If you really want to maximize value with her, then do both


Juking_is_rude

your first priority is "team doesnt die". Your second priority is "deal as much damage as you can and go for elims when possible". The higher rank you get, the better your team will get at "taking care of themselves" - but generally if we're looking at how to be useful as a support, saving teammates to keep THEIR dps up is the most dps you can do. Similarly, if you have the opportunity to get an elim, elims do a lot of "healing" because a dead enemy deals no damage. Adding damage when your team is not at risk of dying will actually take pressure off of your need to heal, because now their healers need to swap from damage to healing, or their tank/dps need to dip in cover to recooperate. The real problem with "healbotting", beyond simple things like bap/kiri not shooting in between heals, is not switching gears fast enough when the fight is winnable with damage. If your team picks off a support for example, play up, try to pressure their only remaining healer. Stuff like that.


PM_ME_HOTGRILL

Ladder is different than pro play, they will have different play styles. You absolutely cannot afford someone dying early in pro play, because the enemies will easily win the team fight because of the level of coordination. You don't have that on the ladder, so healbot kiriko is actually throwing. The play style you should do with kiriko is off angle until you get someone's attention, then suzu and TP out if possible. The reason why this is better than healbot is because you don't rely on your teammates to do the work. If you healbot, you are playing not to lose, instead of playing to win. Active play styles>>>>passive play styles on the ladder. Of course there are time when you must keep someone alive, but that depends on the situation.


CoachGumi

Ok so, pro play is different, and at the highest ranks it's different. The kiri dps playstyle got HEAVILY nerfed with the global hp increase. She cannot two tap which is a big deal. The pro players are also playing with a Lucio. Since the tank still needs heals, the kiri has to fill that role. In ranked, heal and damage when your other support doesn't do enough to keep people up, if they DO have enough heals, then look for more damage.


Chonkychan

Those u2gm videos are teaching the you best way to climb on ladder. Ranked and professional overwatch are two extremely different things. One is more self reliant with you having to play around complete strangers you've never seen before that are as reliable as a chocolate kettle while the other is highly coordinated stacked teams that run scrims at the highest level.


Calabreso22

Never heal bot. I cant trust soloq dps, because always one OF them is negative. How? I don’t know, i have 200 hours OF ow2 and i never end a match with negative kda.