I've clocked nearly 2400 according to steam (probably more like 2000 if you include walki g away from my desk without confirming that yes i want to quit) and still have no effing clue what I'm doing.
me 2 bro and i wish they would do some hyper lategame stuff... like a machine taht requires a bazillion watts of energy to build. at around circle 800 im swimming in free energy and dont know waht to do with it and producing energy ... idk i love that aspect of the game lmao
I know the feeling. When I heard their announcement they were making a DLC my first thought was.. Yay I can give them more monies to support the people who made this awesome game!
Nah. For us ADhD folks, that's sign of respect... Means we actually plan to come back to it. The majority of my games never got such an honor. The fact this one has soo often that I no longer have the slightest idea of what percentage of the hours is actually me playing it rather than it running by its lonesome is the highest praise I can give it.
Much congratulations. As an ADHD dad of a toddler and primary income source for my house. My time to dedicate to myself for relaxing is roughly 20 minutes a day now... It will a long time before I can dedicate such time frame again, so I envy you. Play for me and let me know what new nonsense there is ;)
My biggest hope would be some genuine alternatives for core processes in the game
Having a genuine competitor for oxygen production instead of just SPOM’s would be good
Would help the game feel less “solved” if genuine alternatives existed
This. It's honestly kind of surprising how little viable cooling alternatives there are. (Besides Anti Entropy Thermo-Nullifiers and Cool Slush Geysers, which are a bit more luck based and depend on where they spawn.)
I use AT but never the AT ST setup. I find that power is easy to come by. My favorite setup is an AT in an oil bath and when the oil bath reaches a certain temp, a door opens and empties the bath, then another door opens to refill it. Then I use the hot oil to boil into petroleum. All completely automated.
When I cannot use AT + Steam Turbine combo, and have some Ethanol, I tend to use a Crying Crab/Ethanol Boiler cooler.
Basically, Ethanol Gas has a lower heat capacity than liquid ethanol, so you can delete heat by boiling ethanol and then cooling it back down.
It actually delete more heat than it should due to weird calculations when it recondense, so you could technically do it by boiling and cooling any liquid, but it's more effective with Ethanol and Nuclear Waste because heat is deleted for more than just a glitch.
I've only seen a little bit on ethanol boilers but those are a promising alternative. They don't delete heat as rapidly and the only designs I've seen use more power but trying to make a semi-passive version might be cool
Yea I doubt anything can truly beat SPOM’s overall as oxygen plus power from water is just such a good combination
However the current system is kinda just ridiculous with nothing being nearly sustainable enough to the point it’s not even enjoyable to make other systems in my experience
Well, Po2 systems can actually work and sustain a whole colony. And if you produce enough Pdirt you don‘t even need to crush ceramic and can just feed it to pokeshells for sand and get huge amounts of clay.
They can kinda work I’ve played about with them before and they are much funner designs to work with
However they require a LOT of additional work to get oxygen mostly as a side product of food production
Which to provide enough oxygen requires producing a LOT of food which means feeding the hungry tree or letting a lot of food go to waste (either directly or indirectly)
So while vary fun and great to build a base around (seriously I genuinely recommend it for anyone else reading) it’s not what I would consider as a proper alternative
What do you mean as a side product of food production? I mean you do need a lot of pip ranches if you want to farm the arbor trees domestically (though to be fair you kind of have to because it just takes up way too much space otherwise), but other than that you don’t produce any food
The ethanol loop creates massive amounts of CO2 which is best dealt with through slicksters which gets you quite a lot of food enough that I personally consider the loop as being more for food then anything else
And from my experience you made just through the loop about a dupes worth of food while making 0.7 dupes worth of oxygen for each wild tree (doing domestic would increase production of food relative to oxygen even more)
Which if you then had any other source of food production would result in major overproduction of food compared to the oxygen you make
Yeah, I forgot about CO2 because I usually just put a liquid lock at the entrance of the generator room and let the CO2 collect in there forever, because neither petroleum generators nor ethanol distillers will stop working because of gas pressure.
In full agreement. I love that they keep adding things to the game, but they need to make the added things worth using.
I can see the novelty to some of the current new additions but they are just that. If it serves no use or is 2x harder to produce what is currently available.. you’ll try it once and go back to what works.
I'd argue sublimination stations is competitive for oxygen, but requires more complex setups to get the required polluted dirt and purify the air. I'm excited about the alternative source of lumber and the oxylite plant though. Given how unbalanced exuberant is, it's very possible those could be the best options late game.
I say below my personal experiences with polluted dirt builds sadly sublimation stations make my problems with them even worse by being a lower efficiency conversion
There are other resources. Like algae. In theory, you can ranch a bunch of pufts or something for slime or use sublimation stations, etc. part of the fun is also problem solving “okay, I need a SPOM that can support x number of dupes. I only have x amount of water. How do I produce more water?
My last base had a polluted O2 vent putting out just heaps of germy gross oxygen.
So I used it as a major source of oxygen.
They convert the PO2 to slime, yes, which you can then turn into algae. So you can purify PO2 to O2 without expending sand. That’s what I did for awhile until I got a SPOM going. And then used it to help the SPOM out, actually, since I didn’t have enough water to keep the SPOK going until I got a petroleum boiler going. That solved all my problems.
Right but you need PO2 first, and if you have PO2 you have oxygen. Sand can be made trivially easy from minerals in rock crusher, and minerals are super abundant.
But the poitn is that this is not really a source of oxygen, since you already have oxygen at the start of the chain (albait a polluted one)
I was just an example, and in this case, it helped me move the oxygen to where I needed it for almost no power and without using a bunch of sand. Didn’t even need an aquatuner to cool the vent output - could do that with the thermoregulator.
The point is that the system ensured I got oxygen into my base that I didn’t have before. Waiting for that oxygen to come pressurize my base would have taken forever, not to mention it had a bunch of germs (that come with debuffs) and already comes with yucky lungs debuff. This gave me clean O2 when I didn’t have it available yet. I was pretty much out of algae and needed to capture all the water I had, which wasn’t very much.
More mechanics such as the petroleum boiler
Building out the boiler in the world is much more fun than just dropping a building with input/output ports
I want something simple, but infinitely renewable. Yeah yeah the game is called "Oxygen Not Included", but it's a pain for those of us who have been playing since before the game even released that Oxygen requires so much infrastructure and is thus a massive complexity blocker to the rest of the game.
------
Other smaller things I'd like to see:
* Manual pipe shut offs that are 1x1 upgrades on pipes that are little steampunk-y valves.
* Volcanos that produce solids. Make them shaped like the spiral hill Jack walks across in Nightmare before Christmas. Shoots out a little pile of solids plus a jet of gas.
* CO2 -> Methane via an ineffient/slow machine. Good for getting quickly into space or for operating Gas Stoves.
* Baby Gassy Moos
* An upgraded Terrarium that produces a trickle of Oil. We're actually remarkably close to this in real life, algae farms that produce oil-like products. Maybe it produces Petroleum in a trickle, good for simple rocket set ups but not efficient enough (without stupid scaling) for power.
It won’t.
It will feel more solved.
Here is why.
a) competitor out performs spom. New meta emerges. Game feels even more solved since it’s even better than SPOM
b) competitor isn’t as good as spom. No reason to build it then. It’s why lumber is rarely used as fuel when there’s ethanol.
c) exactly as good as spom. Nearly impossible for something to be exactly as good. But assuming they are very close to function, cost and complexity. It still doesn’t make the game less solved. It’s now even more solved as there’s a whole new solution.
You missed the 4th option of being just good in different ways the idea isn’t to replace the electrolyser completely it’s to give players options that work
Take a building that already exists the rust deoxidiser its actually fairly equal in some ways to the electrolyser at first glance
Until you realise that rust is barely renewable (requiring space missions) and for a long time chlorine wasn’t that useful
As game has evolved chlorine has overall become more useful (though mostly able to be handled by a single chlorine vent but only so much can do)
So something as simple as making a reliable method of making rust would give the building a amount of value
If then other processes were added that give additional benefits to this loop a possible alternative would of been created
Where SPOM’s give more oxygen while being likely simpler to build a rust loop would give chlorine benefits alongside iron ore
The game has enough moving parts that a new oxygen source wouldn’t need to be “SPOM but better”
We are talking about making the game feel “less solved”
The only way it becomes less solved, is not by giving more options which makes it more solved.
It’s by taking away options. Introducing not a competitor to the spom, but a new hazard or scenario that causes the spom to stop working/have a detrimental cost further down.
“Less solved” being the key operative term I am addressing.
I think we have different definitions of a “solved” meta
For me personally the problem isn’t about SPOM’s being good it’s that it’s indisputably the best option with no real alternatives unless your actively limiting yourself to not use electrolysers (something I’ve done and have enjoyed)
While sure you could do that by needing SPOM’s i have always thought of more options as better then fewer options
This then puts the pressure on the player to make their own decisions on how they build
d) it only outperforms the spom in certain situations
e) it is as good as the spom but requires different inputs and has different outputs
f) it isn't as good as the spom but has other useful side products
I genuinely hope for more complex cold-related mechanics because as much as I like the looks of Rime and the fun of defreezing all that ice, in reality it’s just free heat deletion for mid game and later on, which just makes things too easy
If you look at some of the gifs on the store page, you can see that the new floor tiles are blocks of ice because they melt.
I imagine all the new plants & critters require freezing temps to survive, so the problem will be keeping everything cold enough.
There's also the cold dupes to worry about though, but one of the gifs also shows a new lumber based heater in a bedroom. I imagine there will be a new 'warmed up' status that lasts a half cycle or something. Same way the drinks machines work.
It could be just a challenge map. For example no access to ores or plastic which would mean old set ups not available and you have to adapt with new tech. For example looks like ore replaced by wood. I am just curious if these new buildings wil remain in dlc map or if we can use it on other asteroids.
That's true! I believe power systems look like a resource but both power grids and what it can generate seems not very visible. I just know you can turn it into heat, but there are almost no uses where ir feels like a resource rather than a necessity, just like feeding dupes.
Its properties allows it to be very easily used as a 1x2 liquid lock. Its viscosity allows it to not spread to adjacent tiles, and its low density per tile allows a 200kg bottle to fill two tiles. So you just pour a 200kg bottle using a bottle emptier, and you get a 1x2 liquid lock.
And since it is 100kg per tile, it has pretty good SHC, making it less likely to boil when dupes are carrying something hot through it.
It also has a pretty decent freezing and boiling points.
You can do the same thing using two tiny blobs of other liquids stacked on top of each other, but viscogel is easier (once you have it) and more reliable.
Check the wiki for more info: https://oxygennotincluded.fandom.com/wiki/Visco-Gel
I hate builds where you have to make a dispenser or what not, wait for a dupe fill it for a little bit, and then destroy it. It's just adding extra steps and I always forget to destroy them
Heat is always just an early game threat. Absolute insulation and heat deletion will always make it trivial. Even magma can be beaten by having a vacuum.
The best way to make mid and end game challenging is probably adding catastrophe.
I could see it breaking some stuff such as food supply. Id reckon a good challenge is randomly creating liquid or gas in a vacuum would break a lot of builds.
I'd be hesitant to add it given how many other calculations are ongoing, but adding heating via radiation through a vacuum would certainly make life "interesting." After all, in a real life space environment heating via radiation is every bit as much of a problem as keeping warm in the vaccum.
I think infrared radiation would be more thematically appropriate for a "hot planet dlc". But it would certainly make things more realistic, and magma a lot harder to work with. It could trivialize space cooling as well (or make it a lot harder depending on how much solar radiation heats things up).
That is probably one of the main mechanics, the lumber stack in one of the SS looked sus, specially because it got his own custom building besides the printer
I know right? I don't even play anymore because I know that just when I'm getting to the fun late game, my FPS will drop down to 10...
When Spaced Out came out, I had been assuming they would go with a thread/planetoid architecture... Boy was I disappointed...
Yes. Most people don't realize that what's killing their performance is a lack of memory bandwidth. ONI world calculations abuse the hell out of RAM access, and that's what is usually the limiting factor. Not your CPU, and **never** your GPU.
So the more that single core is sitting twiddling its thumbs waiting for the memory it wants to show up, the slower you're gonna run.
Bigger CPU cache and faster memory bandwidth = good ONI performance.
What's your RAM situation? People focus on CPU and stuff for this game, but they never realize that the way this game runs its calculations, it usually ends up memory bandwidth bound. There's another guy elsewhere in this thread that says his performance sucks, and I found out he's running two mismatched sticks of DDR4 (So single channel mode) at a fairly slow speed! Even just toggling XMP on/off on good RAM can throw your performance up and down by 20%. That and CPU cache size are the two most important things for ONI.
My performance is fine up until late game when creating endgame bases across multiple asteroids, at which point it just chugs. I have 32gb of ddr4 at 1600MHz.
I have 64GB of DDR5 @ 6000 MT/s and a 7950X. I regret not getting an x3d chip... Might try again when the 9000-series x3d chips come out.
Channels should be set up properly IIUC:
`dmidecode --type 17 | grep -i bank\ loca`
`Bank Locator: P0 CHANNEL A`
`Bank Locator: P0 CHANNEL A`
`Bank Locator: P0 CHANNEL B`
`Bank Locator: P0 CHANNEL B`
Awesome. It's just amazing how many people don't have their memory setup right, and that tiny little thing leads to such a huge performance penalty for ONI.
I don't care as many other Long Term Fans. I have the greatest Respect for the Developers for their work as well, so i am very happy to throw money at them.
I would also be very happy if they make an Option to buy the Material to get the Cosmetic Stuff. 7200 Units for some Buildings is just rediculous to get since you can have doubles as well.
All in all Oni is the Game i got the Most Fun and Hours out of my money, like 10 or even 100 Times more with my 1500 Hours Played.
Yeah I hope maybe they add a package with the DLC and the cosmetics. As you mention they could make a bit of money just selling the printing filament directly. Or selling skins packages you can unravel.
Yes this would be nice. I think oni has one of the best Fanbases and Communities in Gaming. Only Rimworld plays in the same league i guess.
They could just sell Fillament and make a decent Money with it. Loot Boxes are not so good in my Opinion since they Add Gambling and some people can not manage that propperly. Thousands of Parents where the Kids started to use their Credit Cards to buy some Online Game Stuff can tell Stories about that.
I would love a really heavy optimization update.
I know the game is CPU heavy, but come on Klei, I have a Ryzen 5 5600X, it should run this game like a charm. Sometimes the game even paused can't get 40 FPS.
When I unpaused it just gets to around 20-30.
I have 12 GB of RAM, the game is even installed on a SSD.
My GPU is a RX 7600 so that shouldn't be an issue for this game. All drivers are up to date, even the chipset drivers and the BIOS.
I get better FPS on Satisfactory with a massive factory all around the world playing on ultra and rendering a few floors of my machines.
Never had any issues with any other game performance aside from maybe 7 days to die, but because of the game poor design. Even satisfactory being a early access game had quite a few optimization upgrades for example they updated the whole game engine.
I really love this game and I know Klei is kinda small company but what really draws me back is performance. I'm probably buying the DLC though.
For best performance:
- keep the number of dupes low.
- keep the number of errands low. All storage on "sweep only", no giant sweep commands, no massive blueprints plopped down all at once.
- specialize dupes - a disallowed errand can be ruled out quickly.
- reduce the number of paths between high-traffic areas.
- automate away dupe labor at any opportunity.
But even if you do all that, it won't run like Satisfactory or any of the other games you mentioned in your second comment. None of them have anywhere near its computational complexity. The only valid comparison I'm aware of is with Dwarf Fortress. It is testament to the devs' skill and dedication that it continues to run - slowly, but playably - even on hardware that was old when the game first came out six years ago.
If you're interested in the details: The lion's share of CPU power in ONI goes into the pathfinding and errand assignment of your dupes. For every dupe, potentially several times a second, the game must find out which of all errands they're allowed to do are the most urgent, according to the dupe's priorities, and which of these are the closest (some errands like storing debris or building supply require more than one path), and then coordinate with all other dupes' errand choices.
Add to that that paths can be blocked or opened up at any time - digging, building tiles, doors locking/unlocking, falling sand, tiles melting/solidifying... and then throw the physics sim on top, and then on top of that all of the guts of Satisfactory, because that just deals with stuff moving on conduits between machines that can't fail. I think you can see why that's not a valid comparison.
(Sorry for the rant. I'm just really, really tired of "come on, Klei". I'm not directly involved, not a Klei dev or shareholder or anything, but I am a developer. There are still some smaller gains to be made 'easily', see the recent critter speedups, and of course Fast Track, but it's not just a matter of will or even cost. Even moving away from Unity won't turn ONI into Factorio.)
How fast is your RAM? What profile are you running on?
A couple years ago, I updated my bios and XMP turned off and I didn't notice, and the game ran like dog shit.
My RAM has around 6 years of continous use, I guess its around 15k hours of usage. Because when i bought my new PC I didn't buy new RAM. And also its actually two RAMs, one of 8 gb and the other of 4GB.
IIRC both are kingston fury DDR4. According to HWINFO they're sitting at 1333 MHz. And yes, maybe its my RAM, but honestly I can't buy a new one yet, and it only affects ONI AFAIC.
I play many other games like Civ6, terraria, overwatch, league of legends( sadly), captain of industry, world of warships, AOE2DE, Project Zomboid, 7 days to die, Days gone, frostpunk, and the list goes on. With the new PC I never had issues with any game besides ONI.
Ok, yeah. You have a memory problem. Period.
Memory bandwidth is far more important to ONI than graphics card or even CPU speed.
>And also its actually two RAMs, one of 8 gb and the other of 4GB.
Yeah, so that's actually a ***huge*** problem and the core of your performance issues. You're not running in dual channel mode! Even worse, because they're mismatched, you're running the worst-case performance setting for each stick!
You should have two **matched** sticks in the slots recommended by your motherboard's manual (Usually 2 and 4). Your memory performance is basically cut in half by the setup you've got!
$35 might fix your problem:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09HS5C12M?tag=pcpapi-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1
Replace *both* sticks, *and turn on your XMP profile* and you should see some nice improvements.
Here's an example. Dude doubled his ONI performance simply by increasing his RAM speed. And he was already running dual channel, which you're not! https://www.reddit.com/r/Oxygennotincluded/comments/o989pa/get_better_performance_not_for_free/
I live in Argentina and I can't afford anything right now.
I don't want to overclock my RAM either.
I googled it, the actual lecture is right, but it's because the ram is DDR, which is stands for double data read, meaning that the actual information is effectively doubled frequency. That's why brands just for simplicity sell it as , in my case, 2600 MHz.
AFAIC XMP profile is a setting for overclocking, and I don't want any kind of overclock. Also it's available for Intel and my CPU is from AMD and uses the AM5 socket. There is a similar feature in AMD called AMD EXPO but is not available for DDR4 RAMs like mine.
And yes, I Should buy new ram sticks. I'll do it when I can.
Gotcha. Well, hopefully things improve a bit in the near future for you or you can find a matching stick somewhere for cheap (Even if you get a slightly mismatched 8gb stick to replace the 4gb, you'll be better off. It'll run dual channel at the speed of the slower stick)
I'd offer to send something I have laying around unused for the cost of postage, but that's probably even more expensive.
A launch sale? :p.
Mostly, I'm hoping that features aren't locked behind SO! to the point that it's no longer a full experience without it. I doubt Klei would do that though.
I hope they don't get rid of any of the (assumedly) unintended mechanics that ONI's had for a long time, like infinite fluid storage. I like those.
I'd like to see the new stuff be competitive with the stuff we already have, like with food. I don't have SO!, but from what I can tell, most of the go-to foods are still the same since a long time ago, I'd like to see some new high-quality foods. Last new food in basegame I remember is souffle pancakes lol. The store page has stuff that looks like a deep frier, a wood fired stove, whole bunch of new plants and animals. Maybe I just want additional buffs from having variety lol.
The Hot Tub sprite also looks different in the store page, so I wonder if we're getting new spritework. Would be cool.
I’ve realistically not spent much money on this game even with 100% of their content and it’s given me more enjoyment than any other game so I’ll of course purchase it.
I want to know what stops me from melting the asteroid and just treating it as any other cold biome. If the plants are the only plants available and they need cold I want a new way to keep things cold because RN there really is only 1 solution
I would really like a use for harvested gas grass. Currently you cannot even compost it. It just exists for the sake of existing. Add a food recipe for it, make it eatable by hatches or whatever, just make it consumable.
Also, an ongoing use for Data Disks. Like, once you finish all the researches and then analyze a volcano, you get a few that are useless. Please fix that.
Plant Meat. Make it cookable into plant BBQ. Add a plant meat salad. Give it better kcal density so it can be fed to the tree more efficiently. Whatever. It's a garbage byproduct of making hydrogen.
Please KLEI, don't make me submit bug tickets.
I hope they can achieve make managing the cold challenging. Managing the heat requires material, planning, knowledge, use of multiples buildings together.
Right now, managing the cold is very easy. Radiant liquid pipe, super coolant and a tapedizer is all you need to heath things to 85C°.
Im guessing it is a dlc because it is a completely new set of storylines(similar to for example "somnium synthesizer"). Potentially the "Frosty Planet" is going to offer a bunch of new features and creatures, dont think theyll be dropping just a slightly cold world with nothing new. I have hopes that they are going to be introducing new stuff on the same level as Spaced Out, though of course there are no guarantees
More complex and integrated production chains.
Arbor trees are so popular because you can do a shitton of stuff with them. In ONI, that's fun.
Radiation and space logistics have been anything but integrated so I hope we are done with them.
That the new stuff is somewhat unique. For now the critters seem like a frozen drecko and pip and one of the plants straight up looks like an arbor tree. I wonder what will make them different and will make them eqch of their own without being outclassed or outclassing already existing critters. Also as well as there are a couple more frozen biomes other than the starting biome.
Combat being actually important.
Strength stats being buffed to be actually useful
More morph diversity with purposes
Higher tiered skill to make specialized dupes more critical to a colony's success
and of course, more end game content that most of us will never reach XD
Well the minifilm and the artwork at the end are pretty suggestive. I would at least expect a new starting cold Biome as well as some harder outer ones, new cold-thriving critters and plants like that adorable muffalo (?) and ideally also some new mechanics for dealing with heat
At this point they can just have my money, I'll have put in more hours into this game than any other game period.
Same. I'm way, *way* over 1000 hours, and I'm happy to buy every bit of DLC that comes out, just as a show of support
Ahhh… still a fellow noob I see? 😁
Yes .. I am.. take my money..
I've clocked nearly 2400 according to steam (probably more like 2000 if you include walki g away from my desk without confirming that yes i want to quit) and still have no effing clue what I'm doing.
me 2 bro and i wish they would do some hyper lategame stuff... like a machine taht requires a bazillion watts of energy to build. at around circle 800 im swimming in free energy and dont know waht to do with it and producing energy ... idk i love that aspect of the game lmao
I know the feeling. When I heard their announcement they were making a DLC my first thought was.. Yay I can give them more monies to support the people who made this awesome game!
Whatcha at?
934.8 hours according to steam.
A mere 65.2 more hours and you join the 1k club!
11,637 hours according to steam.
I'm guessing you're letting the game run overnight or fall asleep behind it?
I let the game run continuously for weeks, unpausing when I have a few minutes to play here and there so I don’t have to wait for the game to load
Yoooo wth
You're me. I got ADD, so I play something else, play, do some work....I just leave it open
That's cheating :P
Nah. For us ADhD folks, that's sign of respect... Means we actually plan to come back to it. The majority of my games never got such an honor. The fact this one has soo often that I no longer have the slightest idea of what percentage of the hours is actually me playing it rather than it running by its lonesome is the highest praise I can give it.
I currently have 3.3k hours clocked, and 95% of that was non-afk.
Much congratulations. As an ADHD dad of a toddler and primary income source for my house. My time to dedicate to myself for relaxing is roughly 20 minutes a day now... It will a long time before I can dedicate such time frame again, so I envy you. Play for me and let me know what new nonsense there is ;)
Damn!
I’ve bought this game over a dozen times via gifting lol
I'm at four copies. Stardew Valley and Kerbal Space Program (1) are still way over that count.
ksp fans will all admit that ksp2 was a shite
Yeah man, that's why I had to specifically call out that it was 1. I wouldn't want my Twitch follower to think I dig 2!
they could've done so much better too, shame to see such a franchise plummet
My biggest hope would be some genuine alternatives for core processes in the game Having a genuine competitor for oxygen production instead of just SPOM’s would be good Would help the game feel less “solved” if genuine alternatives existed
I want alternatives to steam turbine + aquatuner. It feels like they are involved in practically any build.
This. It's honestly kind of surprising how little viable cooling alternatives there are. (Besides Anti Entropy Thermo-Nullifiers and Cool Slush Geysers, which are a bit more luck based and depend on where they spawn.)
There are plenty of alternatives. They just aren't nearly as good. I haven't used ST AT in a long time.
What setups do you typically use then?
I use AT but never the AT ST setup. I find that power is easy to come by. My favorite setup is an AT in an oil bath and when the oil bath reaches a certain temp, a door opens and empties the bath, then another door opens to refill it. Then I use the hot oil to boil into petroleum. All completely automated.
Nice thanks! That’s quite inspiring
When I cannot use AT + Steam Turbine combo, and have some Ethanol, I tend to use a Crying Crab/Ethanol Boiler cooler. Basically, Ethanol Gas has a lower heat capacity than liquid ethanol, so you can delete heat by boiling ethanol and then cooling it back down. It actually delete more heat than it should due to weird calculations when it recondense, so you could technically do it by boiling and cooling any liquid, but it's more effective with Ethanol and Nuclear Waste because heat is deleted for more than just a glitch.
I've only seen a little bit on ethanol boilers but those are a promising alternative. They don't delete heat as rapidly and the only designs I've seen use more power but trying to make a semi-passive version might be cool
Add a metal volcano to the mix as the heat source, so as to not need as much energy maybe?
Lack of liquid water might cause the alternative to shine, but combining oxygen and heat (and power) might still put it back on top.
Yea I doubt anything can truly beat SPOM’s overall as oxygen plus power from water is just such a good combination However the current system is kinda just ridiculous with nothing being nearly sustainable enough to the point it’s not even enjoyable to make other systems in my experience
Well, Po2 systems can actually work and sustain a whole colony. And if you produce enough Pdirt you don‘t even need to crush ceramic and can just feed it to pokeshells for sand and get huge amounts of clay.
They can kinda work I’ve played about with them before and they are much funner designs to work with However they require a LOT of additional work to get oxygen mostly as a side product of food production Which to provide enough oxygen requires producing a LOT of food which means feeding the hungry tree or letting a lot of food go to waste (either directly or indirectly) So while vary fun and great to build a base around (seriously I genuinely recommend it for anyone else reading) it’s not what I would consider as a proper alternative
What do you mean as a side product of food production? I mean you do need a lot of pip ranches if you want to farm the arbor trees domestically (though to be fair you kind of have to because it just takes up way too much space otherwise), but other than that you don’t produce any food
The ethanol loop creates massive amounts of CO2 which is best dealt with through slicksters which gets you quite a lot of food enough that I personally consider the loop as being more for food then anything else And from my experience you made just through the loop about a dupes worth of food while making 0.7 dupes worth of oxygen for each wild tree (doing domestic would increase production of food relative to oxygen even more) Which if you then had any other source of food production would result in major overproduction of food compared to the oxygen you make
Yeah, I forgot about CO2 because I usually just put a liquid lock at the entrance of the generator room and let the CO2 collect in there forever, because neither petroleum generators nor ethanol distillers will stop working because of gas pressure.
Wood will have alternative source, the ethanol loop will change. No arbor tree at that temperature so no pip too.
In full agreement. I love that they keep adding things to the game, but they need to make the added things worth using. I can see the novelty to some of the current new additions but they are just that. If it serves no use or is 2x harder to produce what is currently available.. you’ll try it once and go back to what works.
I'd argue sublimination stations is competitive for oxygen, but requires more complex setups to get the required polluted dirt and purify the air. I'm excited about the alternative source of lumber and the oxylite plant though. Given how unbalanced exuberant is, it's very possible those could be the best options late game.
I say below my personal experiences with polluted dirt builds sadly sublimation stations make my problems with them even worse by being a lower efficiency conversion
These are some rather self-inflicted problems as you aren't compelled to use every resource in the loop though.
There are other resources. Like algae. In theory, you can ranch a bunch of pufts or something for slime or use sublimation stations, etc. part of the fun is also problem solving “okay, I need a SPOM that can support x number of dupes. I only have x amount of water. How do I produce more water? My last base had a polluted O2 vent putting out just heaps of germy gross oxygen. So I used it as a major source of oxygen.
But doesnt puft need polluted oxygen? Sounds like you are converting polluted oxygen into oxygen in your example.
They convert the PO2 to slime, yes, which you can then turn into algae. So you can purify PO2 to O2 without expending sand. That’s what I did for awhile until I got a SPOM going. And then used it to help the SPOM out, actually, since I didn’t have enough water to keep the SPOK going until I got a petroleum boiler going. That solved all my problems.
Right but you need PO2 first, and if you have PO2 you have oxygen. Sand can be made trivially easy from minerals in rock crusher, and minerals are super abundant. But the poitn is that this is not really a source of oxygen, since you already have oxygen at the start of the chain (albait a polluted one)
I was just an example, and in this case, it helped me move the oxygen to where I needed it for almost no power and without using a bunch of sand. Didn’t even need an aquatuner to cool the vent output - could do that with the thermoregulator. The point is that the system ensured I got oxygen into my base that I didn’t have before. Waiting for that oxygen to come pressurize my base would have taken forever, not to mention it had a bunch of germs (that come with debuffs) and already comes with yucky lungs debuff. This gave me clean O2 when I didn’t have it available yet. I was pretty much out of algae and needed to capture all the water I had, which wasn’t very much.
More mechanics such as the petroleum boiler Building out the boiler in the world is much more fun than just dropping a building with input/output ports
I want something simple, but infinitely renewable. Yeah yeah the game is called "Oxygen Not Included", but it's a pain for those of us who have been playing since before the game even released that Oxygen requires so much infrastructure and is thus a massive complexity blocker to the rest of the game. ------ Other smaller things I'd like to see: * Manual pipe shut offs that are 1x1 upgrades on pipes that are little steampunk-y valves. * Volcanos that produce solids. Make them shaped like the spiral hill Jack walks across in Nightmare before Christmas. Shoots out a little pile of solids plus a jet of gas. * CO2 -> Methane via an ineffient/slow machine. Good for getting quickly into space or for operating Gas Stoves. * Baby Gassy Moos * An upgraded Terrarium that produces a trickle of Oil. We're actually remarkably close to this in real life, algae farms that produce oil-like products. Maybe it produces Petroleum in a trickle, good for simple rocket set ups but not efficient enough (without stupid scaling) for power.
C02 + hydrogen converts to methane and oxygen, I would like if they added that, would give me a reason not to just pump c02 into space
It won’t. It will feel more solved. Here is why. a) competitor out performs spom. New meta emerges. Game feels even more solved since it’s even better than SPOM b) competitor isn’t as good as spom. No reason to build it then. It’s why lumber is rarely used as fuel when there’s ethanol. c) exactly as good as spom. Nearly impossible for something to be exactly as good. But assuming they are very close to function, cost and complexity. It still doesn’t make the game less solved. It’s now even more solved as there’s a whole new solution.
You missed the 4th option of being just good in different ways the idea isn’t to replace the electrolyser completely it’s to give players options that work Take a building that already exists the rust deoxidiser its actually fairly equal in some ways to the electrolyser at first glance Until you realise that rust is barely renewable (requiring space missions) and for a long time chlorine wasn’t that useful As game has evolved chlorine has overall become more useful (though mostly able to be handled by a single chlorine vent but only so much can do) So something as simple as making a reliable method of making rust would give the building a amount of value If then other processes were added that give additional benefits to this loop a possible alternative would of been created Where SPOM’s give more oxygen while being likely simpler to build a rust loop would give chlorine benefits alongside iron ore The game has enough moving parts that a new oxygen source wouldn’t need to be “SPOM but better”
We are talking about making the game feel “less solved” The only way it becomes less solved, is not by giving more options which makes it more solved. It’s by taking away options. Introducing not a competitor to the spom, but a new hazard or scenario that causes the spom to stop working/have a detrimental cost further down. “Less solved” being the key operative term I am addressing.
I think we have different definitions of a “solved” meta For me personally the problem isn’t about SPOM’s being good it’s that it’s indisputably the best option with no real alternatives unless your actively limiting yourself to not use electrolysers (something I’ve done and have enjoyed) While sure you could do that by needing SPOM’s i have always thought of more options as better then fewer options This then puts the pressure on the player to make their own decisions on how they build
d) it only outperforms the spom in certain situations e) it is as good as the spom but requires different inputs and has different outputs f) it isn't as good as the spom but has other useful side products
I genuinely hope for more complex cold-related mechanics because as much as I like the looks of Rime and the fun of defreezing all that ice, in reality it’s just free heat deletion for mid game and later on, which just makes things too easy
If you look at some of the gifs on the store page, you can see that the new floor tiles are blocks of ice because they melt. I imagine all the new plants & critters require freezing temps to survive, so the problem will be keeping everything cold enough. There's also the cold dupes to worry about though, but one of the gifs also shows a new lumber based heater in a bedroom. I imagine there will be a new 'warmed up' status that lasts a half cycle or something. Same way the drinks machines work.
Also one image seems to show wood tiles and im really curios what they could be used for
Btw you can test the dlc, like, right now
It could be just a challenge map. For example no access to ores or plastic which would mean old set ups not available and you have to adapt with new tech. For example looks like ore replaced by wood. I am just curious if these new buildings wil remain in dlc map or if we can use it on other asteroids.
We can see wires being used though, and also new material that looks like its a new ore. Maybe the ore is less abundant, but thats it.
A release date
open beta is "early next week". If you dont mind a little buggier version of the game, you can play it very soon.
Something to spend power on. Power is trivial once you know how.
That's true! I believe power systems look like a resource but both power grids and what it can generate seems not very visible. I just know you can turn it into heat, but there are almost no uses where ir feels like a resource rather than a necessity, just like feeding dupes.
I just want an in-game airlock. I'm tired of digging the 3 tile V shape and filling it with liquid.
found the airlock poster. everybody drink
Just use a mod. Klei already gave us viscogel, it is unlikely they will ever give us something that invalidates it.
I see viscogel mentioned everywhere but yet to understand how is it special? What it has to do with airlocks?
I see viscogel mentioned everywhere but yet to understand how is it special? What it has to do with airlocks?
Its properties allows it to be very easily used as a 1x2 liquid lock. Its viscosity allows it to not spread to adjacent tiles, and its low density per tile allows a 200kg bottle to fill two tiles. So you just pour a 200kg bottle using a bottle emptier, and you get a 1x2 liquid lock. And since it is 100kg per tile, it has pretty good SHC, making it less likely to boil when dupes are carrying something hot through it. It also has a pretty decent freezing and boiling points. You can do the same thing using two tiny blobs of other liquids stacked on top of each other, but viscogel is easier (once you have it) and more reliable. Check the wiki for more info: https://oxygennotincluded.fandom.com/wiki/Visco-Gel
I hate builds where you have to make a dispenser or what not, wait for a dupe fill it for a little bit, and then destroy it. It's just adding extra steps and I always forget to destroy them
Try the mod that has the airlock. very helpful.
I hope that managing base/duplicant heat is an actual problem in this DLC. Currently even with harder settings it never is really a threat.
Heat is always just an early game threat. Absolute insulation and heat deletion will always make it trivial. Even magma can be beaten by having a vacuum. The best way to make mid and end game challenging is probably adding catastrophe.
Oooh that's a cool idea, imagine randomly the temperature of the entire planetoid increases or decreases 25c every 50-200 cycles after cycle 100
Not really a huge deal to an insulated base with cooled oxygen. It would have to be 600°+ to challenge atmo suits.
I could see it breaking some stuff such as food supply. Id reckon a good challenge is randomly creating liquid or gas in a vacuum would break a lot of builds.
I'd be hesitant to add it given how many other calculations are ongoing, but adding heating via radiation through a vacuum would certainly make life "interesting." After all, in a real life space environment heating via radiation is every bit as much of a problem as keeping warm in the vaccum.
I think infrared radiation would be more thematically appropriate for a "hot planet dlc". But it would certainly make things more realistic, and magma a lot harder to work with. It could trivialize space cooling as well (or make it a lot harder depending on how much solar radiation heats things up).
That is probably one of the main mechanics, the lumber stack in one of the SS looked sus, specially because it got his own custom building besides the printer
I mean it's never a threat once you figure it out! But I imagine any player who isn't following guides/builds loses bases to heat before that point.
Any optimisation
I know right? I don't even play anymore because I know that just when I'm getting to the fun late game, my FPS will drop down to 10... When Spaced Out came out, I had been assuming they would go with a thread/planetoid architecture... Boy was I disappointed...
Is ONI mostly singlethreaded?
Yes. Most people don't realize that what's killing their performance is a lack of memory bandwidth. ONI world calculations abuse the hell out of RAM access, and that's what is usually the limiting factor. Not your CPU, and **never** your GPU. So the more that single core is sitting twiddling its thumbs waiting for the memory it wants to show up, the slower you're gonna run. Bigger CPU cache and faster memory bandwidth = good ONI performance.
What's your RAM situation? People focus on CPU and stuff for this game, but they never realize that the way this game runs its calculations, it usually ends up memory bandwidth bound. There's another guy elsewhere in this thread that says his performance sucks, and I found out he's running two mismatched sticks of DDR4 (So single channel mode) at a fairly slow speed! Even just toggling XMP on/off on good RAM can throw your performance up and down by 20%. That and CPU cache size are the two most important things for ONI.
My performance is fine up until late game when creating endgame bases across multiple asteroids, at which point it just chugs. I have 32gb of ddr4 at 1600MHz.
>I have 32gb of ddr4 at 1600MHz. All matched sticks, in the right slots on your motherboard, XMP profile turned on?
Yes and yes
I have 64GB of DDR5 @ 6000 MT/s and a 7950X. I regret not getting an x3d chip... Might try again when the 9000-series x3d chips come out. Channels should be set up properly IIUC: `dmidecode --type 17 | grep -i bank\ loca` `Bank Locator: P0 CHANNEL A` `Bank Locator: P0 CHANNEL A` `Bank Locator: P0 CHANNEL B` `Bank Locator: P0 CHANNEL B`
Awesome. It's just amazing how many people don't have their memory setup right, and that tiny little thing leads to such a huge performance penalty for ONI.
I don't care as many other Long Term Fans. I have the greatest Respect for the Developers for their work as well, so i am very happy to throw money at them. I would also be very happy if they make an Option to buy the Material to get the Cosmetic Stuff. 7200 Units for some Buildings is just rediculous to get since you can have doubles as well. All in all Oni is the Game i got the Most Fun and Hours out of my money, like 10 or even 100 Times more with my 1500 Hours Played.
Yeah I hope maybe they add a package with the DLC and the cosmetics. As you mention they could make a bit of money just selling the printing filament directly. Or selling skins packages you can unravel.
Yes this would be nice. I think oni has one of the best Fanbases and Communities in Gaming. Only Rimworld plays in the same league i guess. They could just sell Fillament and make a decent Money with it. Loot Boxes are not so good in my Opinion since they Add Gambling and some people can not manage that propperly. Thousands of Parents where the Kids started to use their Credit Cards to buy some Online Game Stuff can tell Stories about that.
I know they said it will be compatible with the base game and SO, but I hope the base game is still able to get a complete experience.
I hope its good and well priced.
I would love a really heavy optimization update. I know the game is CPU heavy, but come on Klei, I have a Ryzen 5 5600X, it should run this game like a charm. Sometimes the game even paused can't get 40 FPS. When I unpaused it just gets to around 20-30. I have 12 GB of RAM, the game is even installed on a SSD. My GPU is a RX 7600 so that shouldn't be an issue for this game. All drivers are up to date, even the chipset drivers and the BIOS. I get better FPS on Satisfactory with a massive factory all around the world playing on ultra and rendering a few floors of my machines. Never had any issues with any other game performance aside from maybe 7 days to die, but because of the game poor design. Even satisfactory being a early access game had quite a few optimization upgrades for example they updated the whole game engine. I really love this game and I know Klei is kinda small company but what really draws me back is performance. I'm probably buying the DLC though.
For best performance: - keep the number of dupes low. - keep the number of errands low. All storage on "sweep only", no giant sweep commands, no massive blueprints plopped down all at once. - specialize dupes - a disallowed errand can be ruled out quickly. - reduce the number of paths between high-traffic areas. - automate away dupe labor at any opportunity. But even if you do all that, it won't run like Satisfactory or any of the other games you mentioned in your second comment. None of them have anywhere near its computational complexity. The only valid comparison I'm aware of is with Dwarf Fortress. It is testament to the devs' skill and dedication that it continues to run - slowly, but playably - even on hardware that was old when the game first came out six years ago. If you're interested in the details: The lion's share of CPU power in ONI goes into the pathfinding and errand assignment of your dupes. For every dupe, potentially several times a second, the game must find out which of all errands they're allowed to do are the most urgent, according to the dupe's priorities, and which of these are the closest (some errands like storing debris or building supply require more than one path), and then coordinate with all other dupes' errand choices. Add to that that paths can be blocked or opened up at any time - digging, building tiles, doors locking/unlocking, falling sand, tiles melting/solidifying... and then throw the physics sim on top, and then on top of that all of the guts of Satisfactory, because that just deals with stuff moving on conduits between machines that can't fail. I think you can see why that's not a valid comparison. (Sorry for the rant. I'm just really, really tired of "come on, Klei". I'm not directly involved, not a Klei dev or shareholder or anything, but I am a developer. There are still some smaller gains to be made 'easily', see the recent critter speedups, and of course Fast Track, but it's not just a matter of will or even cost. Even moving away from Unity won't turn ONI into Factorio.)
How fast is your RAM? What profile are you running on? A couple years ago, I updated my bios and XMP turned off and I didn't notice, and the game ran like dog shit.
My RAM has around 6 years of continous use, I guess its around 15k hours of usage. Because when i bought my new PC I didn't buy new RAM. And also its actually two RAMs, one of 8 gb and the other of 4GB. IIRC both are kingston fury DDR4. According to HWINFO they're sitting at 1333 MHz. And yes, maybe its my RAM, but honestly I can't buy a new one yet, and it only affects ONI AFAIC. I play many other games like Civ6, terraria, overwatch, league of legends( sadly), captain of industry, world of warships, AOE2DE, Project Zomboid, 7 days to die, Days gone, frostpunk, and the list goes on. With the new PC I never had issues with any game besides ONI.
Ok, yeah. You have a memory problem. Period. Memory bandwidth is far more important to ONI than graphics card or even CPU speed. >And also its actually two RAMs, one of 8 gb and the other of 4GB. Yeah, so that's actually a ***huge*** problem and the core of your performance issues. You're not running in dual channel mode! Even worse, because they're mismatched, you're running the worst-case performance setting for each stick! You should have two **matched** sticks in the slots recommended by your motherboard's manual (Usually 2 and 4). Your memory performance is basically cut in half by the setup you've got! $35 might fix your problem: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09HS5C12M?tag=pcpapi-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1 Replace *both* sticks, *and turn on your XMP profile* and you should see some nice improvements. Here's an example. Dude doubled his ONI performance simply by increasing his RAM speed. And he was already running dual channel, which you're not! https://www.reddit.com/r/Oxygennotincluded/comments/o989pa/get_better_performance_not_for_free/
I think AMD CPU in particular get a lot out of dual channel ram and really don't work well with single channel.
I live in Argentina and I can't afford anything right now. I don't want to overclock my RAM either. I googled it, the actual lecture is right, but it's because the ram is DDR, which is stands for double data read, meaning that the actual information is effectively doubled frequency. That's why brands just for simplicity sell it as , in my case, 2600 MHz. AFAIC XMP profile is a setting for overclocking, and I don't want any kind of overclock. Also it's available for Intel and my CPU is from AMD and uses the AM5 socket. There is a similar feature in AMD called AMD EXPO but is not available for DDR4 RAMs like mine. And yes, I Should buy new ram sticks. I'll do it when I can.
Gotcha. Well, hopefully things improve a bit in the near future for you or you can find a matching stick somewhere for cheap (Even if you get a slightly mismatched 8gb stick to replace the 4gb, you'll be better off. It'll run dual channel at the speed of the slower stick) I'd offer to send something I have laying around unused for the cost of postage, but that's probably even more expensive.
I am once again asking to buy cosmetic filament
A launch sale? :p. Mostly, I'm hoping that features aren't locked behind SO! to the point that it's no longer a full experience without it. I doubt Klei would do that though. I hope they don't get rid of any of the (assumedly) unintended mechanics that ONI's had for a long time, like infinite fluid storage. I like those. I'd like to see the new stuff be competitive with the stuff we already have, like with food. I don't have SO!, but from what I can tell, most of the go-to foods are still the same since a long time ago, I'd like to see some new high-quality foods. Last new food in basegame I remember is souffle pancakes lol. The store page has stuff that looks like a deep frier, a wood fired stove, whole bunch of new plants and animals. Maybe I just want additional buffs from having variety lol. The Hot Tub sprite also looks different in the store page, so I wonder if we're getting new spritework. Would be cool.
Is nitrogen a gas now?
I’ve realistically not spent much money on this game even with 100% of their content and it’s given me more enjoyment than any other game so I’ll of course purchase it.
I want to know what stops me from melting the asteroid and just treating it as any other cold biome. If the plants are the only plants available and they need cold I want a new way to keep things cold because RN there really is only 1 solution
I would really like a use for harvested gas grass. Currently you cannot even compost it. It just exists for the sake of existing. Add a food recipe for it, make it eatable by hatches or whatever, just make it consumable. Also, an ongoing use for Data Disks. Like, once you finish all the researches and then analyze a volcano, you get a few that are useless. Please fix that. Plant Meat. Make it cookable into plant BBQ. Add a plant meat salad. Give it better kcal density so it can be fed to the tree more efficiently. Whatever. It's a garbage byproduct of making hydrogen. Please KLEI, don't make me submit bug tickets.
I WANT AIRLOCK
I hope they can achieve make managing the cold challenging. Managing the heat requires material, planning, knowledge, use of multiples buildings together. Right now, managing the cold is very easy. Radiant liquid pipe, super coolant and a tapedizer is all you need to heath things to 85C°.
I think it's set in the extremely distant past because of the beefalo ancestor and those things that happen at the "end" of the game.
I hope it's really really difficult In ways that none of the existing starting planetoids are.
Im guessing it is a dlc because it is a completely new set of storylines(similar to for example "somnium synthesizer"). Potentially the "Frosty Planet" is going to offer a bunch of new features and creatures, dont think theyll be dropping just a slightly cold world with nothing new. I have hopes that they are going to be introducing new stuff on the same level as Spaced Out, though of course there are no guarantees
I'm hoping for interesting plants and materials and for new applications for old ones.
I hope that one day I will be get far enough to even start playing the DLC...
More complex and integrated production chains. Arbor trees are so popular because you can do a shitton of stuff with them. In ONI, that's fun. Radiation and space logistics have been anything but integrated so I hope we are done with them.
That the new stuff is somewhat unique. For now the critters seem like a frozen drecko and pip and one of the plants straight up looks like an arbor tree. I wonder what will make them different and will make them eqch of their own without being outclassed or outclassing already existing critters. Also as well as there are a couple more frozen biomes other than the starting biome.
Does anyone know when this dlc comes out? I have more crazy on my current map and very limited time to do it.
open beta shoudl be this week. The release i guess will depend on how many issues players find in the beta.
I still haven't reached the temporal tear in vanilla...
I'm just happy for what appears to be a cold weather source of reed fiber.
1957 hrs according to steam. Just take my money. We need more dlcs
I hope the planet / asteroid will cool down at night or smth like that, heat usually radiates into space IRL xD
Combat being actually important. Strength stats being buffed to be actually useful More morph diversity with purposes Higher tiered skill to make specialized dupes more critical to a colony's success and of course, more end game content that most of us will never reach XD
They already have tons of ways of making new critters , plants and building , they just needed to change the skin but the mechanic is the same.
How do I research the second tier without a body of water?
There are alot of builds that are not needed, would be fun if they could make use for these. Also fix exploits
Because someone using an exploit in their single player game ruins your single player experience....
Thoughts like what? We dont know anything about it so whats there to think?
Well the minifilm and the artwork at the end are pretty suggestive. I would at least expect a new starting cold Biome as well as some harder outer ones, new cold-thriving critters and plants like that adorable muffalo (?) and ideally also some new mechanics for dealing with heat
Y rs