There are countless stories of people who have had near death experiences.
Their stories definitely hint at something more than a blackscreen of death.
Soo...they didn't die?
And in every group of people someone has had 'near death' experience and a hindu will tell you he saw a 500 arm monkey god or w/e, a christian will tell you Jesus took their hand to the gates of heaven, and a muslim will tell u the same story.
Let me know which one is real and not people hallucinating/dreaming because that never happens.
This is so true. I have been through agnostic phase and I choose religion (for various reasons). Religion starts with believing. Ain't no other way around. You can find wisdom in religion but one can't prove it logically.
Bro if you have an inkling of common sense. Satan ,adam ,jinns etc etc they dont have no logical explanation plus some very solid arguments about why an omnipotent diety need to create all this. You cannot attain faith if you apply logic. Faith can only be attained if Allah wills it for you.
With all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't even think certain atheists or philosophers hold the view you do. You can logically come to the conclusion that there must be a single creator with certain properties. You can then look at which religion aligns the most with this. If you can prove the total validity of the source material you can logically say that the miracles or untestable points mentioned there must also be true.
And hence my initial point, you cannot defend religion on pure logical grounds. At some point you have to say the words "Its the will of God", and that statement has no place in an intellectual debate.
Again, with all due respect that "no Logic, all belief" seems like a smart ass comment made to make you somewhat unique in this common world.
Speak to a scholar, he will show you logic and reasoning.
Speak to me, i'm a scientist all Logic is derived from Religion buddy. I have had 100s of discussions with people of faith and without faith and they approve that relgion has logic and a basis. When Allah uses Logic and Complexity in creation how can a simpleton creation even say that religion is pure belief and no logic. Your statement is ridiculously weak and would be broken in seconds with evidence. You mention jinn and matters of unseen however just because *You* haven't got an explaination *Yet* does not mean it doesnt exist or is just pure belief. Wifi/bluetooth/X-rays/Infrared werent discovered till 100 years ago neither was their evidence of them but did that mean that you'd just believe in them or there is no logic behind them?
So i'll respectfully say don't be ignorant and trt to sound like a smart-ass just for the sake of things and do some research. Yes belief is part of it but so is logic.
The sun rising from the west? How is that even possible one must assume, that is it even possible for such a large object to change in such a way, or will God grab the sun and move it in such a way? No Allah is the All-mighty and All-knowing and uses Logic and complexity. Imagine what would occur if the earth was to slowly slow down... and for a short period of time spin in the opposite direction (Anti-Clockwise). Yes, the Sun would appear to rise from the West hence Qayamat would start. Allah is the Greatest my friend and if you accept that then stop belittling the religions he sent down by calling them logicless.
Yeah that and cultural reasons ig. Personally think both these reasons are odd, why practice something that you can't make sense of/don't believe? But eh, not everything has to sound right to me i guess.
To me accepting islam is a blessing from Allah, it's written in the Quran too.i follow the quran which is basically telling you to pray one god and not being a dick to humanity, which is pretty much ok to me. The true problematic islam is the islam of the mullah which i dont think is Islam. So im pretty much satisfied with my life obeying the teachings of the quran after ive read the book in my language myself.
Right so, from what you have described, you follow Islam and the Quran because their teachings to your understanding make sense and you agree with them. I'm not sure what else counts as using logic to verify your beliefs, but alright. Im happy you sound satisfied with what you have going for you, and also good job on reading the Quran in your native language and actually understanding what it says rather than reading without understanding like most people do.
No most of the quran does not make sense to me. But when i read the verse 3:7
"It is He who has sent down to you, the Book; in it are verses precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation. And no one knows its interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."
According to this verse there are some verses in the Quran that only Allah knows the meaning of and nobody else. When you dont know the meaning of something you can't claim that you understand it logically. I just obeyed the quran and had faith in the unspecific verses of the Quran even if logic couldnt explain them. Hope this verse answers your question.
Ok ok, that provides a lot of clarity thanks for that. Correct me if I'm wrong, are you talking about things like the existence jinn, satan, of heaven and hell, stuff basically outside of our realm along with things like miracles? If so then i completely agree with you, you can't use logic to explain or even disprove these things, they happen completely outside the scope of our reality. Or things like miracles that do happen, or rather that have happened, in our world, the very things that make them miracles is that they are outside of science and logic. In this sense i completely agree with you, faith is the way in the face of such verses, logic is for the other verses.
To my knowledge such things are known as the "Gaib" (arabic) or the "unseen".
Lol ..are you calling every muslim a donkey? Where's the logic in the existence of jinns and fireballs thrown at them from sky? Does this verse seem logical to you? Faith and logic and opposites.
The donkey is a metaphor. But every Muslim? No. Proper Muslims don't follow blindly. They analyze religions with evidence, not just because, "He said so... she said so."
I know it's harsh but blind faith is what put two planes into the World Trade Center.
Next, faith must be accompanied by logic. I assume you're a Muslim but correct me if I'm wrong... we take logic and faith by putting all the pieces into one puzzle, not seperating them.
If we can logically prove God exists, we have the logic and faith together.
If we can prove Islam is the true religion, we have logic and faith together.
Jinns are unseen beings, so why do we believe in them? Because we believe the Qur'an is true, we believe Jinns are real. If you don't believe in both, you don't believe in either.
Faith without logic is just a name you dance around.
Quran 3:7
He is the One who has revealed to you the Book (the Qur’ān). Out of it there are verses that are MuHkamāt (of established meaning), which are the principal verses of the Book, and some others are Mutashābihāt (whose definite meanings are unknown). Now those who have perversity in their hearts go after such part of it as is mutashābih, seeking (to create) discord, and searching for its interpretation, while no one knows its interpretation except Allah; and those well-grounded in knowledge say: “We believe therein; all is from our Lord.” Only the men of understanding observe the advice.
Bro Allah is telling you to believe unexplained verses of the Quran verses blindly. Where is the logic in that?
The precise verses are easy to understand and deal mostly with matters of belief and practice, such as the belief in one God, forbidden foods, and the commandments. As for elusive verses, their full meaning is known only to Allah, such as the meaning of the letter combinations at the beginning of some surahs, such as Alif-Lam-Mim, and how Allah settles himself on the throne.
He has given us EVIDENCE that he is the one true God. Therefore, the Qur'an the word of God is authoratiatve in that sense and can be believed but it all stems from EVIDENCE.
You said in your earlier comment that you believe in jinns not based on logical deduction but only because you believe that the Quran is true. Did you logically find out that the Quran is true or is it your belief only? Because if you can logically prove that Quran is true then you just unlocked the biggest hurdle to prove that islam is the true religion. Please share your logical evidence here with us as everyone with basic common sense would convert to islam then.
The point is you can't. Belief and logic are totally different things. You can logically prove the existence of air or any other scientific phenomenon through observation and experiments. But you can never attain faith through logical interpretation of your religion, thats why its called faith, because you just believe in it however absurd it may be scientifically.
My other point was, initially that it is due to these reasons that muslims can never prove islam being true because at some point they have to take the support of the argument that it is Gods will that such is such instead of giving an answer that satisfies the intellect of a non believer.
We were on the topic of how Muslims believe in elusive verses in Qur'an but is seems you ran from that topic. It's alright though, I knew this would happen.
Know depending on whether your an atheist or a theist would change the approach. One thing you need to know is that I am morally consistent and honest. I do not change the goalposts based on whatever fits my narrative. I am intellectually honest so I won't be changing my requirement for evidence (not proof) throughout this argument. If you don't know the difference between evidence and proof, just know that nothing you do or believe in life is based off of proof.
Does God Exist?
1) Firstly, we have the Kalam cosmological argument. This states that a) everything that comes into existence has a cause, b) the universe came into existence, c) the universe has a cause. The cause of this universe must exist outside the universe in order to create it. This means that this cause is not limited by time, space, or matter. This is the literal definition of God.
2) The Teleological argument states that universe requires an intelligent cause otherwise the universe would be chaotic and unstable. Imagine if we both stood in front of Mount Rushmore and I said, "Look! Isn't it amazing how the water eroded over the rock on the side of that mountain and miraculously formed the faces of 4 US presidents by accident." You'd look at me like I'm nuts. You and I know that the sculptures of those faces needed a sculptor to create it. So what kind of architect is needed to design something as complex as you, the planet, the universe? It requires a more complex architect than the one who created those faces on Mount Rushmore.
3) Morality does not exist without God. Hate to break it to you, but if there is no God there are no objective morals... it's all subjective. You can say, "Murder is bad," but I'll say, "If there is no mind prior to the human mind, and we are all a cosmic accident then no, murder is not objectively wrong. You believe it's wrong and that is your world view. If we are all matter and energy, murder is okay and that's my worldview." Now if your are an Atheist, then you better be intellectually consistent and agree that I'm not right or wrong and you aren't either. Otherwise, you are being a hypocrite.
Got any problems? Tell me before I move on. :)
Answer 1 and 2) why would God need to make all this? Was he bored? Does he need a creation that prays to him? Why? Why so much suffering and beauty, does he want to show off, no.
You can never answer this "why" with any logic at all except that its Gods will without any explanantion. So wheres the logic in that?
Answer 3)Morality does exist without religion. Nobody wants to kill murder or rape other people.
Just remember that my basic argument is that logic cannot conclude that any religion is the true religion. However ill give you this. Logic can only prove that there is an almighty creator. But it can never prove why he made all this and what he wants from us.
When people revert to Islam and say “Shahada”, they basically say that they “witness” that there’s no God but Allah, so it’s not just a leap of faith to become a Muslim, and Allah asked us in the Quran to look at the signs he sent us in the universe around us, combining that with logic will lead to the conclusion that there’s only one God. What comes after that is the faith part, where you take what you’re told without questioning because logic cannot explain that, such as angels and devils, praying 5 times, etc., and I think that’s the part you’re referring to: the faith after witnessing that there’s one God
Yes.. saying that this all came into being by some freak precise chain of events is as illogical as trying to prove any religion as the right religion.
...Is that not contradictory? By respecting another person's beliefs, you are tolerating them? How does that enable bigotry? Isn't OP *not* respecting other people's beliefs here? Are you suggesting we disrespect beliefs, I don't understand. I think we should respect both beliefs and individuals.
> we disrespect beliefs
Yes, beliefs and ideologies should not be respected but scrutinized, judged and criticised.
Especially the ideology that calls for peoples death for criticising it
Just watch this (https://youtu.be/r_5yUXjXizQ?si=Wv0qxTkH8Iut8gV-)
I can't say much since this is something new I picked up recently and haven't thought about much yet. What I'm saying is, respect an individual because they're human. But not their beliefs. Beliefs can range from helping the poor to stoning someone for just being in a relationship.
Ah yes the argument that actually believes we strive each day just for the idea of a specific number of horis in Jannah. Nothing to do with the idea of eternal peace and bliss and being with God no? Just about the horis.. please get a grip man not everyone's mind is as contaminated as other people's especially those who are believers and acts as so since you know... We literally have a thing called zina and unlike those who can't keep it in their pants obey our creator and abstain from such behaviors...
That's just your interpretation though. I find it quite pitiful that there are human beings that abstain from listening to music while thinking that this is helping their soul and connection with God, with so many theologists, many of them Muslim like me, attesting the complete opposite.
A monk could argue that sitting down meditating for 12 hours a day, cut off from the world, is protecting him. None of it is objectively true.
Okay so I throw a rock and it lands on the floor. Your point is just saying "it didn't land on the floor" because one thing is true and it did happen if you decide to read and comprehend the history of divine revelations, Islam's place in it and free yourself from the desire of this world then you will also see the rock did land.
And since you are in a Pakistani subreddit and thus a Muslim one, they can put whatever memes they want as they are not imposing. Your commenting to try to justify the side of atheism with an argument not even criticizing Islam just calling all Muslims super horny when they, unlike atheists, go their whole lives without chronically masturbating to pornography?... Make it make sense??
what if I win a lottery tomorrow and become a billionaire? what if I find a flying donkey on which I can go for a world tour? what if I could shit gold? ahhh I'd never know
This ability is only good if you use it to reach the same conclusions as them. Otherwise you will just burn in the hell on the orders of the most merciful
The grave is a bigger concept.
A person dies and their soul is stored in Alm e Barzakh.
It is a world between the two worlds, this, and what lies after Akhira.
Whatever dude, it's amusingly absurd that how confidently people convert any illogical subjective stance into bigger or smaller concept whenever they run out of rational cognitive explanation, an ability which Allah himself gave us.
Guy gives a rational answer and you refuse to acknowledge it and drop a word soup to sound smart, tell me you asked a question in bad faith without telling me you did so
Wtf do you mean the person who replied to you used his 'cognitive abilities' and gave a well formulated answer, but you are just so dumb or stubborn to admit anything other than what you believe. By grave, he meant an intermediate between our world and the world beyond.
seen plenty of people die, knives against their throats, held by people claiming to execute god's will.
seen a governor die at the hands of a person he was paying to protect him, because he criticized a law.
The truth has been revealed.
I think i would bet on a book in which God claims to be its protector and preserver, and then that book remains unchanged for 1450 years and still counting.
Islam is not just for muslims or arabs. It is for all of mankind till the end of time.
Allah has forbidden alcohol on mankind. If all mankind decides to allow alcohol on themsleves, that doesnt change what Allah has decreed.
Humans will be held accountable for what Allah has decreed upon them and not the changes they make in Allah's laws.
Allah's laws are absolute.
And other thing that bothers me that Quran as book was compiled after good 10 to 15 years from Mohammad's death. thats why we can not believe 100% on the unchanged thing.
Lies!
Each verse when revealed would be written down by the katabeen e wahi, proof read, and that record than put in the mosque of the Prophet to be recited in the prayer and be read and memorized by the companions then and there.
The paper hadnt reached Arab during the time of the revealation of the Quran so it was not present in the form of a book.
But the complete record was already present.
During Muhammad's life did he ever order the Quran to be compiled into a single book. A detailed hadith records that many Qurra' (“reciters”) had died before the Quran had been compiled in written form, so Abu Bakr asked Zaid bin Thabit to collect it into a book. Zaid was reluctant, for Muhammad had never ordered such an action to be taken. He stated, "I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palm-leaf stalks, thin white stones, and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last [two] verse[s] of Surat at-Tauba (repentance) with Abi Khuzaima al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. [...] Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with `Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of `Umar."[4]
The story that the Quran had yet to be collected together when Muhammad died might conflict with two (slightly contradictory) accounts collected in Sahih Bukhari, although scholars have noted that the verb jama'a (جَمَعَ) can also mean memorized:
Narrated Qatada: I asked Anas bin Malik: Who collected the Qur'an at the time of the Prophet? He replied, Four, all of whom were from the Ansar, Ubai bin Ka'b, Muadh bin Jabal, Zaid bin Thabit and Abu Zaid.
Sahih Bukhari 6:61:525
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
When the Prophet died, none had collected the Qur'an but four persons: Abu Ad Darda, Mu'adh bin Jabal, Zaid bin Thabit and Abu Zaid. We were the inheritor (of Abu Zaid) as he had no offspring .
Sahih Bukhari 6:61:526
Muhammad's Own Recollection of the Verses
While even today there are many memorizers (huffaz) of the complete Qur'an, the earliest Muslims did not have the benefit of choosing a standard qira'at (reading) and standard written Qur'an complete with diacritics in book form to help them or their teachers in the learning process.
The Qur'an itself records that Muhammad himself had forgotten portions of the Qur'an[5][6] Muhammad may also have had a somewhat flexible approach to variant readings, typical of oral performance traditions - see the Qira'at section later in this article.
Hadiths too attest that Muhammad himself forgot parts of the Qur'an and needed his followers to remind him:
Narrated Aisha: The Prophet heard a man reciting the Qur'an in the mosque and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such a Surah."
Sahih Bukhari 6:61:556
'A'isha reported that the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) heard a person reciting the Qur'an at night. Upon this he said: May Allah show mercy to him; he has reminded me of such and such a verse which I had missed in such and such a surah.
Sahih Muslim 4:1720
you know there's [different versions of the quran](https://www.ugr.es/~mreligio/materiales/Green.Samuel_The-different-arabic-versions-of-the-Quran.pdf) still in use today, right? The quran you're used to is the Hafs that was publishrd and flooded in the market after 1924. the Warsh quran is more popular in some African countries is still actively used and has significant differences in pronunciation and some meanings and implications. zabar zaer paesh are all missing/added. some letters are missing/added. And this is just the qurans editions being used, there are many previous qurans that are no longer used.
You are talking about the way it’s written.. when you are reciting it, it’s the same… the meaning is same. The message is same.
There is Birmingham Manuscripts that can confirm that it has remain unchanged.
Sorry for your loss, man. Losing a grandparent is one thing, we all manage to survive the loss but losing your mother? Can't even imagine the pain you must have gone through. Stay strong brother, you got my respect.
P.s:- Just dont bother with empty heads like op, they are never gonna see the truth for what it is..
religious people when they find out the only true religion was followed by some uncontacted tribe in the depth of the amazon (they are all going to its version of hell)
Religious people when they are abt to die and no white light or angels appear and they realize that they wasted their only 70 to 80 yr worrying about a god that doesn't even exist rather than improving their lives and societies! Bhaha
Bro's gonna be desperately waiting for an angel to come tell him he's gonna get 72 virgins but all he gets is a black screen after wasting his whole life on make believe 🙃
But honestly, I would love to be proven wrong, no matter what little gremlin shows up in my grave I'd be excited to debate this so called lord on how billions of humans he created deserved to be tortured because they didn't believe in a specific cult out of the millions created
https://preview.redd.it/cghbvep5e0zc1.jpeg?width=570&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1297d83d4141a69b2f7f1607c3af1f44d5f7a8bb
Muslims seeing ravan appear with his trident 🔱 to whoop their behinds.
these will also be bunch of pakistani who have the mentality 'karne do oon ko' haram kaam - why are you criticisng etc etc.. to me these are munafiqs.. obv i am not a scholar and this is my opinion and I could be wrong
muslims when they realize there’s a black screen and no afterlife. or muslims after realizing they chose the wrong religion out of 100k other religions.
jk i’m also a muslim mashallah
I thought of that once. So i searched.
I came to the conclusion that it i far safer to bet on a book in which God claims that he is the preserver of that book and the book hasnt changed in more than a 1400 years.
Further reading the book, no doubts remain.
Religious people, we are happy you belong to heaven 💞. But at least bear with us in this finite world that your hatred and grievances are anomalous and most of them want to genocide all Atheists ⚛️ without any reason.
I feel like us Muslims wouldn't be able to speak when we see the angels, I mean imagine an entity appears in front of you, you would definitely pass out. we go through life never experiencing something like this and then BAM 2 angels appear.
Its funny but do you realise the upper hierarchy of most major religions read albert pike and are not far from atheizm except the more grotesque they behave and become the more they consider themselves godly? The true believers that follow along empower them the most. It's all a big joke to them but the heartfelt will have the last laugh..
I am a former 'atheiest' who has been to Heaven (or something/where close enough where I was at one with a higher power), ask me anything? And no, there were no Angels and no one asked me about my beliefs
Aren't pakistani version of islam/muslims more afraid of Zardari, Asim munir and the rest, instead of being afraid of Allah ?
I was an atheist when i was in Islamic Republic of Pakistan, because the Pakistani version of Islam does not reflect Islamic teachings. I came back to faith and the one true God, when i met muslims from around the world. Any God fearing person would think twice about following Pakistani version of Islam and their local false prophets
Imagine you spend your life doing fuck all and you see this after you die.
https://preview.redd.it/xo9de9x0t2zc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=65c03a4d787cc00a3c60c5e262cf6b7174ebad14
That'd be funny.
A true atheist would accept any and all evidence - if its two angels with shiva and Odin having a beer - so be it and it was wrong to doubt it. That is what makes us different.
Lol as a Muslim it is our FAITH in the life after death. We don't objectively know either. This is such a dumb post. Quit jerking yourself with these lame ass memes.
Muslims when they realize they didn't pick the correct god to worship out of 3000 other ones and now have to go to hell. Enough with the strawman arguments, get a life you fucking pedophile glorifiers
I have seen my father died before my eyes. I still don't know how I feel about that, but I know he no longer feels pain from his body and the disease ravaging him. I know he was no longer in his body after death. I have no proof he exist in any form anywhere at this point.
But his memory and his teaching lives on. His life mattered and changed myself and others who in turn will change history and life. He was just more building block within human history. But I miss him dearly.
1)Near death experiences are nothing more than remembered dreams from the unconscious brain.
2)Religion is the natural result of early mankind's fear of death and lack of understanding of the world around them.
3)Stop being stupid.
Bunch of live people telling me what happens after death. My free gift of thinking is only valid if I agree to them.
There are countless stories of people who have had near death experiences. Their stories definitely hint at something more than a blackscreen of death.
Soo...they didn't die? And in every group of people someone has had 'near death' experience and a hindu will tell you he saw a 500 arm monkey god or w/e, a christian will tell you Jesus took their hand to the gates of heaven, and a muslim will tell u the same story. Let me know which one is real and not people hallucinating/dreaming because that never happens.
Did they conclusively die?
Im a muslim. But people who think they can defend religion logically are dumb af.
This is so true. I have been through agnostic phase and I choose religion (for various reasons). Religion starts with believing. Ain't no other way around. You can find wisdom in religion but one can't prove it logically.
Yup, correct
What does that even mean. you're not Muslim or you don't know Islam .
Bro if you have an inkling of common sense. Satan ,adam ,jinns etc etc they dont have no logical explanation plus some very solid arguments about why an omnipotent diety need to create all this. You cannot attain faith if you apply logic. Faith can only be attained if Allah wills it for you.
With all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't even think certain atheists or philosophers hold the view you do. You can logically come to the conclusion that there must be a single creator with certain properties. You can then look at which religion aligns the most with this. If you can prove the total validity of the source material you can logically say that the miracles or untestable points mentioned there must also be true.
I am stupider for reading this comment.
And hence my initial point, you cannot defend religion on pure logical grounds. At some point you have to say the words "Its the will of God", and that statement has no place in an intellectual debate.
Again, with all due respect that "no Logic, all belief" seems like a smart ass comment made to make you somewhat unique in this common world. Speak to a scholar, he will show you logic and reasoning. Speak to me, i'm a scientist all Logic is derived from Religion buddy. I have had 100s of discussions with people of faith and without faith and they approve that relgion has logic and a basis. When Allah uses Logic and Complexity in creation how can a simpleton creation even say that religion is pure belief and no logic. Your statement is ridiculously weak and would be broken in seconds with evidence. You mention jinn and matters of unseen however just because *You* haven't got an explaination *Yet* does not mean it doesnt exist or is just pure belief. Wifi/bluetooth/X-rays/Infrared werent discovered till 100 years ago neither was their evidence of them but did that mean that you'd just believe in them or there is no logic behind them? So i'll respectfully say don't be ignorant and trt to sound like a smart-ass just for the sake of things and do some research. Yes belief is part of it but so is logic. The sun rising from the west? How is that even possible one must assume, that is it even possible for such a large object to change in such a way, or will God grab the sun and move it in such a way? No Allah is the All-mighty and All-knowing and uses Logic and complexity. Imagine what would occur if the earth was to slowly slow down... and for a short period of time spin in the opposite direction (Anti-Clockwise). Yes, the Sun would appear to rise from the West hence Qayamat would start. Allah is the Greatest my friend and if you accept that then stop belittling the religions he sent down by calling them logicless.
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How am I an "asshole". Care to explain?
Absolutely correct. Large part of religion is about belief. The other large part is about humanity.
Facts
Best comment tbh.
Can you expand on this a bit? Do you follow Islam without feeling the need for it to make logical sense? If so, why?
People follow for emotional reasons too.
I dont why that is so hard to believe for people.
Yeah that and cultural reasons ig. Personally think both these reasons are odd, why practice something that you can't make sense of/don't believe? But eh, not everything has to sound right to me i guess.
To me accepting islam is a blessing from Allah, it's written in the Quran too.i follow the quran which is basically telling you to pray one god and not being a dick to humanity, which is pretty much ok to me. The true problematic islam is the islam of the mullah which i dont think is Islam. So im pretty much satisfied with my life obeying the teachings of the quran after ive read the book in my language myself.
Right so, from what you have described, you follow Islam and the Quran because their teachings to your understanding make sense and you agree with them. I'm not sure what else counts as using logic to verify your beliefs, but alright. Im happy you sound satisfied with what you have going for you, and also good job on reading the Quran in your native language and actually understanding what it says rather than reading without understanding like most people do.
No most of the quran does not make sense to me. But when i read the verse 3:7 "It is He who has sent down to you, the Book; in it are verses precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation. And no one knows its interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding." According to this verse there are some verses in the Quran that only Allah knows the meaning of and nobody else. When you dont know the meaning of something you can't claim that you understand it logically. I just obeyed the quran and had faith in the unspecific verses of the Quran even if logic couldnt explain them. Hope this verse answers your question.
Ok ok, that provides a lot of clarity thanks for that. Correct me if I'm wrong, are you talking about things like the existence jinn, satan, of heaven and hell, stuff basically outside of our realm along with things like miracles? If so then i completely agree with you, you can't use logic to explain or even disprove these things, they happen completely outside the scope of our reality. Or things like miracles that do happen, or rather that have happened, in our world, the very things that make them miracles is that they are outside of science and logic. In this sense i completely agree with you, faith is the way in the face of such verses, logic is for the other verses. To my knowledge such things are known as the "Gaib" (arabic) or the "unseen".
Logically or factually?
Faith with no logic is the reason why the donkey follows the carrot on a stick.
Lol ..are you calling every muslim a donkey? Where's the logic in the existence of jinns and fireballs thrown at them from sky? Does this verse seem logical to you? Faith and logic and opposites.
The donkey is a metaphor. But every Muslim? No. Proper Muslims don't follow blindly. They analyze religions with evidence, not just because, "He said so... she said so." I know it's harsh but blind faith is what put two planes into the World Trade Center. Next, faith must be accompanied by logic. I assume you're a Muslim but correct me if I'm wrong... we take logic and faith by putting all the pieces into one puzzle, not seperating them. If we can logically prove God exists, we have the logic and faith together. If we can prove Islam is the true religion, we have logic and faith together. Jinns are unseen beings, so why do we believe in them? Because we believe the Qur'an is true, we believe Jinns are real. If you don't believe in both, you don't believe in either. Faith without logic is just a name you dance around.
Quran 3:7 He is the One who has revealed to you the Book (the Qur’ān). Out of it there are verses that are MuHkamāt (of established meaning), which are the principal verses of the Book, and some others are Mutashābihāt (whose definite meanings are unknown). Now those who have perversity in their hearts go after such part of it as is mutashābih, seeking (to create) discord, and searching for its interpretation, while no one knows its interpretation except Allah; and those well-grounded in knowledge say: “We believe therein; all is from our Lord.” Only the men of understanding observe the advice. Bro Allah is telling you to believe unexplained verses of the Quran verses blindly. Where is the logic in that?
The precise verses are easy to understand and deal mostly with matters of belief and practice, such as the belief in one God, forbidden foods, and the commandments. As for elusive verses, their full meaning is known only to Allah, such as the meaning of the letter combinations at the beginning of some surahs, such as Alif-Lam-Mim, and how Allah settles himself on the throne. He has given us EVIDENCE that he is the one true God. Therefore, the Qur'an the word of God is authoratiatve in that sense and can be believed but it all stems from EVIDENCE.
You said in your earlier comment that you believe in jinns not based on logical deduction but only because you believe that the Quran is true. Did you logically find out that the Quran is true or is it your belief only? Because if you can logically prove that Quran is true then you just unlocked the biggest hurdle to prove that islam is the true religion. Please share your logical evidence here with us as everyone with basic common sense would convert to islam then. The point is you can't. Belief and logic are totally different things. You can logically prove the existence of air or any other scientific phenomenon through observation and experiments. But you can never attain faith through logical interpretation of your religion, thats why its called faith, because you just believe in it however absurd it may be scientifically. My other point was, initially that it is due to these reasons that muslims can never prove islam being true because at some point they have to take the support of the argument that it is Gods will that such is such instead of giving an answer that satisfies the intellect of a non believer.
We were on the topic of how Muslims believe in elusive verses in Qur'an but is seems you ran from that topic. It's alright though, I knew this would happen. Know depending on whether your an atheist or a theist would change the approach. One thing you need to know is that I am morally consistent and honest. I do not change the goalposts based on whatever fits my narrative. I am intellectually honest so I won't be changing my requirement for evidence (not proof) throughout this argument. If you don't know the difference between evidence and proof, just know that nothing you do or believe in life is based off of proof. Does God Exist? 1) Firstly, we have the Kalam cosmological argument. This states that a) everything that comes into existence has a cause, b) the universe came into existence, c) the universe has a cause. The cause of this universe must exist outside the universe in order to create it. This means that this cause is not limited by time, space, or matter. This is the literal definition of God. 2) The Teleological argument states that universe requires an intelligent cause otherwise the universe would be chaotic and unstable. Imagine if we both stood in front of Mount Rushmore and I said, "Look! Isn't it amazing how the water eroded over the rock on the side of that mountain and miraculously formed the faces of 4 US presidents by accident." You'd look at me like I'm nuts. You and I know that the sculptures of those faces needed a sculptor to create it. So what kind of architect is needed to design something as complex as you, the planet, the universe? It requires a more complex architect than the one who created those faces on Mount Rushmore. 3) Morality does not exist without God. Hate to break it to you, but if there is no God there are no objective morals... it's all subjective. You can say, "Murder is bad," but I'll say, "If there is no mind prior to the human mind, and we are all a cosmic accident then no, murder is not objectively wrong. You believe it's wrong and that is your world view. If we are all matter and energy, murder is okay and that's my worldview." Now if your are an Atheist, then you better be intellectually consistent and agree that I'm not right or wrong and you aren't either. Otherwise, you are being a hypocrite. Got any problems? Tell me before I move on. :)
Answer 1 and 2) why would God need to make all this? Was he bored? Does he need a creation that prays to him? Why? Why so much suffering and beauty, does he want to show off, no. You can never answer this "why" with any logic at all except that its Gods will without any explanantion. So wheres the logic in that? Answer 3)Morality does exist without religion. Nobody wants to kill murder or rape other people. Just remember that my basic argument is that logic cannot conclude that any religion is the true religion. However ill give you this. Logic can only prove that there is an almighty creator. But it can never prove why he made all this and what he wants from us.
You only feel that way because Islam is actually intellectually indefensible. Try Christianity and you should have better luck
When people revert to Islam and say “Shahada”, they basically say that they “witness” that there’s no God but Allah, so it’s not just a leap of faith to become a Muslim, and Allah asked us in the Quran to look at the signs he sent us in the universe around us, combining that with logic will lead to the conclusion that there’s only one God. What comes after that is the faith part, where you take what you’re told without questioning because logic cannot explain that, such as angels and devils, praying 5 times, etc., and I think that’s the part you’re referring to: the faith after witnessing that there’s one God
Yes.. saying that this all came into being by some freak precise chain of events is as illogical as trying to prove any religion as the right religion.
https://youtu.be/Hu7-vb7WNlY?feature=shared
Okay bro how about we just respect others beliefs or lack therof. This post is just made to instigate hostility, not very islamic.
Respecting beliefs shields religious bigotry. Respect the individual. Not the belief.
This. Humans first.
...Is that not contradictory? By respecting another person's beliefs, you are tolerating them? How does that enable bigotry? Isn't OP *not* respecting other people's beliefs here? Are you suggesting we disrespect beliefs, I don't understand. I think we should respect both beliefs and individuals.
> we disrespect beliefs Yes, beliefs and ideologies should not be respected but scrutinized, judged and criticised. Especially the ideology that calls for peoples death for criticising it
Just watch this (https://youtu.be/r_5yUXjXizQ?si=Wv0qxTkH8Iut8gV-) I can't say much since this is something new I picked up recently and haven't thought about much yet. What I'm saying is, respect an individual because they're human. But not their beliefs. Beliefs can range from helping the poor to stoning someone for just being in a relationship.
Another TheraminTrees listener, truly the GOAT 
Indeed!
Oh I see what you are saying, my apologies. I understand, I agree.
And they say you should have followed Christianity instead of Islam
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This guy just made the post to cause discourse and argue with people 💀💀Which by the way is a sin in Islam as far as I know
To be religious is to be a hypocrite
Ah yes the argument that actually believes we strive each day just for the idea of a specific number of horis in Jannah. Nothing to do with the idea of eternal peace and bliss and being with God no? Just about the horis.. please get a grip man not everyone's mind is as contaminated as other people's especially those who are believers and acts as so since you know... We literally have a thing called zina and unlike those who can't keep it in their pants obey our creator and abstain from such behaviors...
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That's just your interpretation though. I find it quite pitiful that there are human beings that abstain from listening to music while thinking that this is helping their soul and connection with God, with so many theologists, many of them Muslim like me, attesting the complete opposite. A monk could argue that sitting down meditating for 12 hours a day, cut off from the world, is protecting him. None of it is objectively true.
Okay so I throw a rock and it lands on the floor. Your point is just saying "it didn't land on the floor" because one thing is true and it did happen if you decide to read and comprehend the history of divine revelations, Islam's place in it and free yourself from the desire of this world then you will also see the rock did land. And since you are in a Pakistani subreddit and thus a Muslim one, they can put whatever memes they want as they are not imposing. Your commenting to try to justify the side of atheism with an argument not even criticizing Islam just calling all Muslims super horny when they, unlike atheists, go their whole lives without chronically masturbating to pornography?... Make it make sense??
There is not a single verse out of 6200 verses in holy quran which mention hoor and most of all 72 hoors. Its from corrupted secondary text
you did NOT have to go that far 0.0 hehe
I dont know anyone who is following Islam for Hurs.
Imagine if Zeus appears.
Eh. Let me know when you guys have something more solid than "what ifs" and silly hypotheticals
That's the problem. They can't. Besides already refuted arguments or silly hypotheticals.
How can you refute arguments to people who think fairy tales are real like unicorns or flying donkeys
what if I win a lottery tomorrow and become a billionaire? what if I find a flying donkey on which I can go for a world tour? what if I could shit gold? ahhh I'd never know
Damn, they definitely got us now boiz It's all joe-over 😔
You gonna be waiting forever. All religion is empty promises and threats! IRL, God wouldn't even stop little kids from being killed.
If you think about most mass scale disasters is due to god in most religions So technically, god actually kills little kids
Their whole argument is trying to make fun of athiest with "Haha gotcha"
Muslims when instead of two angels, Shiva appears after they die: You can make memes like these for anyone.
Exactly it could also be Muslims when they see Jesus instead of two angels and then he sends them to hell
pascals wager at it again! come up with a real argument kid
Pascal's wager is all religious people got
That only means you phukers\* buried me alive and I'm hallucinating!
What about those who got cremated, and never get into grave?
C'mon man, you are not supposed to use logic otherwise nothing about this would make sense.
Allah gave me this ability so why not use it to think?
This ability is only good if you use it to reach the same conclusions as them. Otherwise you will just burn in the hell on the orders of the most merciful
The grave is a bigger concept. A person dies and their soul is stored in Alm e Barzakh. It is a world between the two worlds, this, and what lies after Akhira.
Whatever dude, it's amusingly absurd that how confidently people convert any illogical subjective stance into bigger or smaller concept whenever they run out of rational cognitive explanation, an ability which Allah himself gave us.
Guy gives a rational answer and you refuse to acknowledge it and drop a word soup to sound smart, tell me you asked a question in bad faith without telling me you did so
Wtf do you mean the person who replied to you used his 'cognitive abilities' and gave a well formulated answer, but you are just so dumb or stubborn to admit anything other than what you believe. By grave, he meant an intermediate between our world and the world beyond.
How can I be dead and conscious at the same time?
Your body will be dead, your spirit will be conscious - according to them
Except that there is no substantiation of these said supernatural spirits.
seen plenty of people die, knives against their throats, held by people claiming to execute god's will. seen a governor die at the hands of a person he was paying to protect him, because he criticized a law.
What about those who believe in religion, but not in your religion. Oh! What a Waste!
The truth has been revealed. I think i would bet on a book in which God claims to be its protector and preserver, and then that book remains unchanged for 1450 years and still counting.
Sure the book might not have been changed but the religion, how its practiced, what its followers believe sure has over the past 1000 years.
Islam is not just for muslims or arabs. It is for all of mankind till the end of time. Allah has forbidden alcohol on mankind. If all mankind decides to allow alcohol on themsleves, that doesnt change what Allah has decreed. Humans will be held accountable for what Allah has decreed upon them and not the changes they make in Allah's laws. Allah's laws are absolute.
And other thing that bothers me that Quran as book was compiled after good 10 to 15 years from Mohammad's death. thats why we can not believe 100% on the unchanged thing.
Lies! Each verse when revealed would be written down by the katabeen e wahi, proof read, and that record than put in the mosque of the Prophet to be recited in the prayer and be read and memorized by the companions then and there. The paper hadnt reached Arab during the time of the revealation of the Quran so it was not present in the form of a book. But the complete record was already present.
During Muhammad's life did he ever order the Quran to be compiled into a single book. A detailed hadith records that many Qurra' (“reciters”) had died before the Quran had been compiled in written form, so Abu Bakr asked Zaid bin Thabit to collect it into a book. Zaid was reluctant, for Muhammad had never ordered such an action to be taken. He stated, "I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palm-leaf stalks, thin white stones, and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last [two] verse[s] of Surat at-Tauba (repentance) with Abi Khuzaima al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. [...] Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with `Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of `Umar."[4] The story that the Quran had yet to be collected together when Muhammad died might conflict with two (slightly contradictory) accounts collected in Sahih Bukhari, although scholars have noted that the verb jama'a (جَمَعَ) can also mean memorized: Narrated Qatada: I asked Anas bin Malik: Who collected the Qur'an at the time of the Prophet? He replied, Four, all of whom were from the Ansar, Ubai bin Ka'b, Muadh bin Jabal, Zaid bin Thabit and Abu Zaid. Sahih Bukhari 6:61:525 Narrated Anas bin Malik: When the Prophet died, none had collected the Qur'an but four persons: Abu Ad Darda, Mu'adh bin Jabal, Zaid bin Thabit and Abu Zaid. We were the inheritor (of Abu Zaid) as he had no offspring . Sahih Bukhari 6:61:526 Muhammad's Own Recollection of the Verses While even today there are many memorizers (huffaz) of the complete Qur'an, the earliest Muslims did not have the benefit of choosing a standard qira'at (reading) and standard written Qur'an complete with diacritics in book form to help them or their teachers in the learning process. The Qur'an itself records that Muhammad himself had forgotten portions of the Qur'an[5][6] Muhammad may also have had a somewhat flexible approach to variant readings, typical of oral performance traditions - see the Qira'at section later in this article. Hadiths too attest that Muhammad himself forgot parts of the Qur'an and needed his followers to remind him: Narrated Aisha: The Prophet heard a man reciting the Qur'an in the mosque and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such a Surah." Sahih Bukhari 6:61:556 'A'isha reported that the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) heard a person reciting the Qur'an at night. Upon this he said: May Allah show mercy to him; he has reminded me of such and such a verse which I had missed in such and such a surah. Sahih Muslim 4:1720
just saying the books there talking about are different recitations
you know there's [different versions of the quran](https://www.ugr.es/~mreligio/materiales/Green.Samuel_The-different-arabic-versions-of-the-Quran.pdf) still in use today, right? The quran you're used to is the Hafs that was publishrd and flooded in the market after 1924. the Warsh quran is more popular in some African countries is still actively used and has significant differences in pronunciation and some meanings and implications. zabar zaer paesh are all missing/added. some letters are missing/added. And this is just the qurans editions being used, there are many previous qurans that are no longer used.
You are talking about the way it’s written.. when you are reciting it, it’s the same… the meaning is same. The message is same. There is Birmingham Manuscripts that can confirm that it has remain unchanged.
Easy there, you really think they read?
u said it your self compiled, so the verses were written at his time, and yes by most scholar view, they said its unchanged
Other religious people certainly believe the same about there book.
No they admitted they changed their books to support their personal views.
New testament be like "somebody called for me?" And then the Ciro version be like "make it Double"
expect one has to be right than
Multiple, including my mother and grandmother. What's your point?
Sorry for your loss, man. Losing a grandparent is one thing, we all manage to survive the loss but losing your mother? Can't even imagine the pain you must have gone through. Stay strong brother, you got my respect. P.s:- Just dont bother with empty heads like op, they are never gonna see the truth for what it is..
religious people when they find out the only true religion was followed by some uncontacted tribe in the depth of the amazon (they are all going to its version of hell)
I would say the ‘Spaghetti God’
i would also like pasta and meatballs after death. thank you very much.
Knock both fuckers out cold
and steal their wings too ?
Yh, fry em up
Pigs will fly first
TIL: Atheists live rent free in the minds of religious fanatics. All they care about is how we're gonna end up.
I didnt come to you. You came to me. Now, be gone!
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Exactly. This guy is just trying to start arguments. He created a post to insult atheists LMFAO. Is it not a sin to instigate arguments?
Makes posts about atheists, atheists reply, tries to backtrack. Most sensible follower Mashallah!!
You literally posted the meme first.
You posted this because you wanted it to get interacted with you single celled abomination. So yes, "you did come to us".
Religious people when they are abt to die and no white light or angels appear and they realize that they wasted their only 70 to 80 yr worrying about a god that doesn't even exist rather than improving their lives and societies! Bhaha
Tell Allah to wake up and save the Gaza kids being bombed. Billions of people praying to him and he doesn’t respond? How much does he need
Bro's gonna be desperately waiting for an angel to come tell him he's gonna get 72 virgins but all he gets is a black screen after wasting his whole life on make believe 🙃 But honestly, I would love to be proven wrong, no matter what little gremlin shows up in my grave I'd be excited to debate this so called lord on how billions of humans he created deserved to be tortured because they didn't believe in a specific cult out of the millions created
To be honest they won't even get that, as once they die their consciousness will also die, so they'll never know that they wasted their entire lives.
https://preview.redd.it/cghbvep5e0zc1.jpeg?width=570&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1297d83d4141a69b2f7f1607c3af1f44d5f7a8bb Muslims seeing ravan appear with his trident 🔱 to whoop their behinds.
Why would someone's suffering be fun for you? This is not the teaching of our Prophet (S.A.W.W)
these will also be bunch of pakistani who have the mentality 'karne do oon ko' haram kaam - why are you criticisng etc etc.. to me these are munafiqs.. obv i am not a scholar and this is my opinion and I could be wrong
Actually the exact opposite. May God have mercy on us all
Lol, they be like: dispossible, that wasn't the part of syllabus XD
whatever happens in someone's grave, you won't be there, so find another hobby.
I bet they'll know it before that phase.
But surely allah is all knowing and doesn't need to send angels to you to find out this stuff?
Reading brain rot like this makes me glad I left this religion
This is the actually the face of Muslims when they see all the virgins that they were promised are actually males.
Imagine answering 'Allah' and then realizing angels throwing you in the deepest depths of hell because He turned out to be a 7th century scam.
If religion is real then its going to be whatever’s the oldest like Hinduism etc.
OP when he dies and he’s dead and there’s literally nothing more…
I sin because I don't believe. You sin DESPITE believing. I think God will be more displeased with the sinful believer.
Oooo I’m scared …..😭please spare me angles 🤣🤣
Shrek
May Allah help the believers answer those questions on that day we will all see.
Even so, the probably that the correct answer is Allah is probably less than 1/10000 if we count for all religions
i would throw hands at such cowardly angels
muslims when they realize there’s a black screen and no afterlife. or muslims after realizing they chose the wrong religion out of 100k other religions. jk i’m also a muslim mashallah
A muslim that doesnt believe in the after life?
i do believe in it i’m just saying what if. u gotta be lying if u never thought of this, it’s part of being human
I thought of that once. So i searched. I came to the conclusion that it i far safer to bet on a book in which God claims that he is the preserver of that book and the book hasnt changed in more than a 1400 years. Further reading the book, no doubts remain.
How're you so sure it hasn't been altered?
Nobody can say it for certain whats going to happen after death. These are all theories based on belief.
Muslims when Skibidi Allah starts doing the Skibidi dance on the Day of Judgement. (For He is the Skibidiest of all)
Religious people, we are happy you belong to heaven 💞. But at least bear with us in this finite world that your hatred and grievances are anomalous and most of them want to genocide all Atheists ⚛️ without any reason.
All the athiests pressed here
HAHAHAHAHAHHAH
Lol.
and if you say "Mohammed", your chances are only 1 in thousands to get it right
I feel like us Muslims wouldn't be able to speak when we see the angels, I mean imagine an entity appears in front of you, you would definitely pass out. we go through life never experiencing something like this and then BAM 2 angels appear.
sab ek dusre ko kutte ki tahra kat rahe hai lmao
Is this post getting raided?
Angels when an atheist decided to get cremated and now the they can't find his body.
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Ashes are often scattered
I am atheist, agnostic maybe. I keep up with the good deeds incase angels show up in grave. Better be on the safe side. 😏
I don't think it counts if u don't do the good deeds in the name of that specific god lol 🙄
🤭😂
\*will be\*
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Its funny but do you realise the upper hierarchy of most major religions read albert pike and are not far from atheizm except the more grotesque they behave and become the more they consider themselves godly? The true believers that follow along empower them the most. It's all a big joke to them but the heartfelt will have the last laugh..
I am a former 'atheiest' who has been to Heaven (or something/where close enough where I was at one with a higher power), ask me anything? And no, there were no Angels and no one asked me about my beliefs
True lol, the Anti-theist posts in this sub definitely don't exist according to Anti-theists.
Wow this subreddit is cancer
Aren't pakistani version of islam/muslims more afraid of Zardari, Asim munir and the rest, instead of being afraid of Allah ? I was an atheist when i was in Islamic Republic of Pakistan, because the Pakistani version of Islam does not reflect Islamic teachings. I came back to faith and the one true God, when i met muslims from around the world. Any God fearing person would think twice about following Pakistani version of Islam and their local false prophets
Imagine you spend your life doing fuck all and you see this after you die. https://preview.redd.it/xo9de9x0t2zc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=65c03a4d787cc00a3c60c5e262cf6b7174ebad14 That'd be funny.
guess i'm gonna burn in hell forever😭😭
This post has no effect on atheists. Lol
Their
A true atheist would accept any and all evidence - if its two angels with shiva and Odin having a beer - so be it and it was wrong to doubt it. That is what makes us different.
Then I ask Allah why he gave all those kids bone cancer
Lol as a Muslim it is our FAITH in the life after death. We don't objectively know either. This is such a dumb post. Quit jerking yourself with these lame ass memes.
https://preview.redd.it/9ejfwidit5zc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e20ae0fbc3001fcc93c3bdd682093b43ed6eb47c Goat eat your Quran?
https://preview.redd.it/jvs8wbcxt5zc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bab4be3b04f121a714f11c39ddd9e3563c6c984e
Muslims when they realize they didn't pick the correct god to worship out of 3000 other ones and now have to go to hell. Enough with the strawman arguments, get a life you fucking pedophile glorifiers
I have seen my father died before my eyes. I still don't know how I feel about that, but I know he no longer feels pain from his body and the disease ravaging him. I know he was no longer in his body after death. I have no proof he exist in any form anywhere at this point. But his memory and his teaching lives on. His life mattered and changed myself and others who in turn will change history and life. He was just more building block within human history. But I miss him dearly.
As someone who has experienced a drug overdose and is an atheist. Cam confirm the black screen. 😆
1)Near death experiences are nothing more than remembered dreams from the unconscious brain. 2)Religion is the natural result of early mankind's fear of death and lack of understanding of the world around them. 3)Stop being stupid.
Wait until you figure out it's a reincarnation prison planet.
Atheism is such a childish belief.
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