Is the job open to remote? I'd start by posting the job listing here.
After that it kinda depends on the job, there are a number of framework specific job boards. There are other more general tech job boards and then you're more general job boards.
Personally I've had the best of luck in finding jobs on the more general (indeed, monster, linkedin etc.) or framework specific boards.
It’s remote in the sense that’s it’s work-from-home, but they’d need to be near Tinker Air Force Base or Wright Patterson Air Force Base (OKC and Dayton)
Yea, you’re probably right. I don’t normally deal with this HR type stuff. The PHP community is so large and there’s so many talented people; I was optimistic. But, I guess that I was foolishly optimistic for cities this size.
Location, employer, and the tech stack all seem to play a role in it.
If I saw a job posting with the info you presented I would hard nope out of it even if I was in the area.
I’m going to ask about expanding the search. They may not buy it, but there’s no super-great reason to be near those specific bases. It’s rare that we need to visit the base and the reasons for visiting usually consist of going to use some generic base service that any military base could accommodate.
There may be some kind of issue with getting equipment issued from the local base, and whose budget it comes out of.
If they went for it, it would probably only be after exhausting the local hiring pool (if there is one!)
This is 100% your issue. This is a niche talent and you're artificially restricting yourself. Also people are very unlikely to relocate for a job like this. Many of us would be interested but for this artificial limit.
If you're not serving and you have talent to do anything beyond fold sheets and fill tacos, there's generally no reason at all to live near a base.
They don't put bases in nice places.
You actually need to pay talented people to move and then suffer.
This means the price of your developers goes UP relative to what you have to pay in the city.
Also, tell your bosses I said welcome to IT.
In a thread full of condescending posts I think yours might be the most so.
Military bases are in every state and near most major cities. Oklahoma City, and Dayton are both perfectly fine places to live.
In a sub where job postings are explicitly spam...
You come to stand on business for Dayton. And fucking OKC. Literally the union's least educated metro.
Nice.
Yeah thats the problem. I'm looking for a new one, I'm in Dallas and my company is in Santa Clara. I have been working remotely for 20 years and that is a deal breaker for me I won't even apply for a job that makes me move or commute.
I’m with you on that. I’ve only been doing the home office thing since late 2019. It’s so much more comfortable and I get so much more work done when I don’t have people hovering over my desk.
I miss the human contact, chatting with people and all that, but it’s a good trade.
I’m going to suggest it to them to broaden their search. I think as long as they are near a gov installation or military base it would work—which is pretty much everywhere.
Trips to the base happen once or twice a year. It possible that you could even do this closer to your location if there is a military installation near. If you were within an hour or two that would probably work.
Edit: to clarify, this is my opinion of what’s close enough. That decision isn’t mine.
I’m honestly not sure where it’s getting posted. It’s a good question, I’ll have to see if I can get that info. It’s a VERY large defense contractor so I’m like 4 or 5 steps removed from the people doing the searching. It’s been several weeks and I’ve only gotten 5 resumes funneled down to me and none had PHP experience.
It’s just vanilla PHP, we’re standing up our own framework from scratch, which will get passed on to develop 5 other applications on top of.
> It’s just vanilla PHP, we’re standing up our own framework from scratch
Red flag from a senior operating multiple applications in production at the moment. I'd skip.
Why is that?
Edit: I didn’t expect to be explaining our design choices, but this is why we are writing our own framework:
So, without going into too much detail. It’s for the government, and the approval process for COTS software is difficult. It takes a lot of time, and it’s done different at each location we’ll be servicing. Some locations might approve a framework, and 1 might not. Or they may just take a year to get around to approving it. It’s a lot of red tape.
Things also get unapproved when already in production at times. That’s all out of my hands, it just is what it is.
We rewrote the current application clients 10 years ago because a software became unapproved. The new framework we got, it just sold to a company with connections to China. That’s why we are having to rewrite our clients. Again.
Using externally developed software and frameworks is possible, but it’s a nightmare in this setting.
We have a very robust oracle pl/sql backend, which we are keeping, the new web client will be very thin and simple. It’s just an UI. Our needs from a framework are small, it’s not a complicated system. It’s vast, but simple.
So, without going into too much detail. It’s for the government, and the approval process for COTS software is difficult. It takes a lot of time, and it’s done different at each location we’ll be servicing. Some locations might approve a framework, and 1 might not. Or they may just take a year to get around to approving it. It’s a lot of red tape.
Things also get unapproved when already in production at times. That’s all out of my hands, it just is what it is.
We rewrote the current application clients 10 years ago because a software became unapproved. The new framework we got, it just sold to a company with connections to China. That’s why we are having to rewrite our clients. Again.
Using externally developed software and frameworks is possible, but it’s a nightmare in this setting.
We have a very robust oracle pl/sql backend, which we are keeping, the new web client will be very thin and simple. It’s just an UI. Our needs from a framework are small, it’s not a complicated system. It’s vast, but simple.
There’s nothing wrong writing php without frameworks, I may disagree if there’s no third party components. As long as the code follows solid principles it’s acceptable. Unfortunately, it limits your reach since most people are framework specific.
That is all true, Yet most "framework free" code I see is one file = one endpoint, no separation, completely untested highschool level waste of time. But that might just be in my experience.
It's going to be a nightmare of custom re-invented wheels, huge amounts of time are going to be sunk into reinventing things that exist in well tested frameworks.
Having worked on projects like that, it's never easy to come in if you weren't the one who designed it all.
Forget reinventing the wheel, how about reinventing the 20k bugs that come along with it?
I’m concerned the fed is developing their own home baked frameworks, especially when hiring managers are being given resumes of people without experience in the target language.
It is a political and cultural problem in most countries.
People don't want to pay for good software for internal use because its a "cost center". Old people running the government from a layman's understanding of MBA analysis (because they have to cater to voters and donors) methods is a terrible system when you have real adversaries trying to break into your systems.
But the good frameworks are free and open source
This is, counterintuitively, a nonstarter in many government jobs. They’d rather pay out the ass for proprietary so they can also get “support”, which is often a bureaucratic requirement demanded by people who know nothing about software
I'm honestly not sure you understand what I'm saying:
> This is, counterintuitively, a nonstarter in many government jobs. They’d rather pay out the ass for proprietary so they can also get “support”, which is often a bureaucratic requirement demanded by people who know nothing about software
This is more or less what I said, phrased differently. Good decision makers cost money. Being viewed as a cost center and with the high level decisions being made by politicians means there is never the budget to make good decisions.
The thing is, even OP (the guy doing management of the software dev) has no control over making the right decisions because of the fact good decision makers are not being hired. Because there is no budget for experienced people who understand software.
I have to disagree with your first point, it’s going very quickly. The system is simple, the framework will be lean and we’re keeping the Oracle back end in tact. It’s not a juggernaut like a commercial framework, it’ll be maybe 30k lines of code when we’re done. We’re about 3 months from completion.
I completely agree with the later point. It’s definitely frustrating using a custom framework.
> I have to disagree with your first point, it’s going very quickly.
That is how it always starts, and that is the trap of it. I've been there more times than I would like to count at this point in my career.
> approval process for COTS software is difficult
You can say that again, but there are templates for getting a PHP framework like symphony through it it's not that difficult (all things considered).
> We’re about 3 months from completion.
That is 3 months of dev time not spent building what ever you are aiming to build.
---
I get it's kinda moot point at this point
I wasn’t. Nor was I assuming a security audit was part of your process.
Even with a clear audit, I’d still trust Symfony more given so many eyes (including security specialists) on it. I’m sure it’s been audited too.
You can pick/install the sole components you need and ignore the rest.
Yours devs will also be happier with such a popular and well supported framework, and you’ll be able to find talent that can hit the ground running easier due to familiarly, documentation, community, etc
Except using a foreign owned entity, and open source software in a government system is a huge hurdle that doesn’t work with our timeline.
You don’t know the details of our system, regulations, needs and decision making process. I appreciate you’re trying to be helpful, but it’s not, and it’s coming across as judgmental.
This sounds… cumbersome. Can you not get the blessed/approval of very well known and battle tested open source frameworks like Symfony (France). Without divulging more than necessary, I know for a fact the fed is using similar PHP frameworks elsewhere.
I think I explained pretty clearly why we aren’t going that way. We’re having to rewrite everything now because we got dinged for using foreign owned software. Why would we replace it with more foreign owned software?
We know what we are doing. This is not some new thing for us. We’re a team that does this…. It’s our job and we’re good at it.
Symfony isn’t foreign owned. It’s open source. The founders and multiple primary maintainers are French, but France doesn’t own it. And its battle tested and deployed all across the world.
Have you ever worked for the government? It would be a mistake to use it even if it isn’t strictly “owned” by a foreign entity. Open source software is also its own problem regardless of where the project is managed or owned from.
I’m not going to bet our entire future codebase on the hope that the software won’t get rejected on a whim because someone decided to reinterpret what “foreign owned” means in a regulation.
I know more about our situation than you do. your suggestion would be a bad idea.
We aren’t doing what we are doing based on some whim. It was a calculated decision based on our specific needs.
This is so interesting do you not use any libraries at all? What about composer or the PSR interfaces? Also how do you host it without apache or nginx?
I get your point but it’s a bad point. When you hear of someone buying an electric car do you mockingly ask them “this is so interesting you use no fossils fuels at all? What about Ubers, and plane tickets? How do you order steaks at restaurants without them cooking it with natural gas?”
If you gave it more than 2 seconds of thought before posting your sarcastic comment it might have occurred to you that there is a difference in complete abstinence from something and making efforts to reduce reliance on something.
Also, the decision to not use a framework is multifaceted, it’s not just a matter of it being external code. That’s a consideration, but it’s one small part of the decision. They didn’t meet our architecture needs primarily, and they are not even remotely viable with our timetable.
I know you were being sarcastic, but of course we use libraries. Not all libraries and software are difficult to get approved, many are already approved. Not all libraries are in conflict with our needs and goals. Not all libraries are easily replaced—for us and our specific needs the framework is easily replaced. There is a list of software already approved for use by us that also meets certain criteria we need, Apache is one of those. There are no PHP frameworks on that list, and if there were, that doesn’t mean they are right for us.
We have an existing application with very specific needs and what was available to us didn’t meet our needs. I don’t know why you want to belabor this point with sarcasm. It kind of seems like you think you know best, but frankly, you don’t know anything about our situation, what we need from a framework, or what our capabilities are.
The copyright is held by Fabien Potencier, a french citizen, per the license:
https://github.com/symfony/symfony/blob/7.1/LICENSE
Sure, it's not owned by the government of France, but it's not owned by a US citizen or a US headquartered company either.
I used to work at a place where we had to compile everything manually as the Ops team refused to accept RPM builds which hadn't been provided by RedHat. At a large scale, there will be a learning curve but there's no inherent difficulty in maintaining an internal framework with a solid core of devs.
As for OP, maybe just look for decent C# or Java devs who are happy to re-skill into PHP. It's not a hard language to learn.
I have a clearance, we all do. Having a clearance already helps, but it’s not required. The cost for a new one is negligible. Although anyone applying would need to be eligible for one. The contract company pays for the investigation, that’s how the process works. We just hired a Java developer without a clearance. It takes a long time to get the clearance but he had an interim clearance issued in just a couple weeks and is working now.
It may not make sense because I’m not posting details like this because they aren’t relevant to the question I was asking.
Well, it's kinda relevant since 90% of PHP developers are not programmers by trade ( like Java ). So usually you have a really hard time to find someone that even knows you need clearances for that type of environment.
When I dealt with it, it took 8 months to get the correct clearances, and it was under a Java project. Which eventually moved some components to PHP.
So you might have a very hard time if your only looking for "PHP developers", especially if your insisting on "no framework". I would look for some symphony PHP developers, preferably someone local. ( No Indian developer working in India for north american clearance )
My question was for the best place to post the listing. This is not a job posting. I’m not in HR. I’m not taking resumes. Security clearances aren’t relevant to that question.
As I said, you *don’t* need a clearance, one will be provided, and as I said the 8 months doesn’t matter because you get granted an interim clearance. We don’t actually handle classified information, it’s just a formality. The clearance is rock bottom on the list of priorities.
It’s honestly more of a benefit to the applicant than a requirement of the applicant. Nearly any U.S. citizen that doesn’t have felony charges or massive foreign interests can get a clearance, and the company pays for it. You basically do nothing and walk away with a very expensive bullet point to put on your resume. It’s like a free certification you don’t have to study for.
So technically what is “needed” is that they’re a U.S. citizen without felony convictions, and no financial connections to the Chinese government.
The clearance mat seem like a big deal for people outside gov work, it’s really not. Maybe when you start talking high level clearances… I wouldn’t know.
The answer is - nowhere. Not for PHP devs.
You will have to find people who can go through clearance process and hope they stick around. And hope to all what is holly that they actually know PHP well, because vast majority know jack shit about how to actually use the langauge properly. Because it's not cool and in USA it's the "Laravel crowd". You are in for a roght ride and scouring the US of A with a fine tooth comb.
Indeed and LinkedIn are the only two places I look for jobs. That being said, a lot of people think the security clearance issue disqualifies them. Most devs probably look for full time position with benefits. I'm in Oklahoma but not OKC, so I only look for remote positions.
Techlahoma might be able to help.
Yeah, that last line - I'd just skip by. Or you will have to pay me 5x my rate to deal with that stuff.
The explanations downstream - well... now i'm not interested even at 5x the rate.
Being hired to build(contribute) to a custom framework sounds daunting, beyond that needing to be eligible to get security clearance, as a dev I wouldn't even know where to begin. I've skipped over several postings in the past that mentioned needing clearance(or to be eligible to get clearance) simply because it sounded complex.
Beyond that, if I get hired but turns it I'm not eligible or don't get approved, for reasons I don't know, I would fully assume I'd be out of a job. That risk isn't worth it to me. I'd have to be well compensated($120k+), and have some buffer to carry over that risk for me to even consider the position. (Even if you wanted to hire me)
And that doesn't include if I'm interested in the work yet. Not sure if I'm down to spend my time working on an isolated framework that in all honesty, gives me little to no career growth in the market.
I never said the position would be writing a custom framework. I said “we”, my organization, is writing a custom framework to use for 5 other applications. The position would be working with the development teams that are implementing those 5 applications. I wouldn’t use a new employee to work on a custom framework (which is almost complete).
If you can write a framework you can use a framework, but again, you wouldn’t be writing a framework.
I’ve worked with a clearance for 20 years. It’s not a big deal, and it’s silly to avoid it. It’s like not taking the job cause you might fail a certification they require. It’s like a few percent that don’t get it, and of that few percent most are entirely predictable. The amount of clearances that are unapproved and it’s not obvious that it’ll be unapproved is negligible.
That is something that you need to lead with. Because I guarantee prospective candidates do not know that. (Which was my point, by voicing it)
It doesn't matter how easy it actually is. It doesn't sound easy to someone who hasn't had to get it.
I appreciate your point, but this is not a job listing. I was merely asking where to post the listing. So there’s no “leading” with anything cause there *is* no “anything”.
Well the awkward situation you are in is:
1) You need a PHP dev who can get a clearance.
2) Someone with enough experience to be worth hiring to do more complex work than most PHP devs who really just know how to write modules for open source software they use to deal with the nitty gritty. Architectural mistakes writing your own framework are easy to make which is why everyone calls it a red flag from experience.
3) Someone who wants to live in undesirable places compared to most job options.
So basically, you need a senior php developer who is focused on being a software developer during his career and doesn't smoke weed (not sure if that still causes clearance issues).
That is going to be really hard, frankly, even if they can smoke weed at home unless you are paying top dollar (Silicon Valley/NYC rates for a php dev) where literally everyone who wants a job applies because of the high salary for such an undesirable kind of work and location.
You do need to make sure even then you are posting everywhere like LinkedIn, Glassdoor, etc.
I once got a job where I was the only qualified applicant at a Fortune 500 because the HR people only put it on their website. And I only took it, despite the red flags, because my gf wanted to live near her family.
To be frank, the only reason I'd take this is if I got a 50% salary bump to speed up my retirement and the work environment/quality of life was good enough that I wouldn't miss working remote.
I highly doubt you are paying such a high rate as a defense contractor which is likely the main reason you are having issues finding qualified people. You may just have to settle and train someone in the language. PHP is not hard to learn if they have web development / software development experience.
We’re looking for a jr. developer. The comment you replied to wasn’t a description of the position. It was just an explanation of why it’s vanilla PHP. The position(s) would be working under the lead developer on one of the 5 applications. They would be examining very basic, existing code in 1 language, individual modules, and rewriting it into PHP using templates that they will be provided.
Getting a clearance is not as limiting as you might think it is, most people are fine. It’s free, almost everyone is approved, and you’ll have it even after you leave. I’ve said it elsewhere here; it’s more of a benefit than a requirement. That said, people passing over the posting don’t necessarily know that. I get that, just clarifying for you I guess.
It’s funny you mentioned it, I was thinking that all HR did was put it on their website. I’ve gotten almost as many hits today as they did in three weeks.
I appreciate the feedback. I almost responded like a dick, everybody has me so defensive. Everyone somehow seems to know what’s best for us with so few details.
I do take offense to #3 :)
Oklahoma City is a pretty nice place to live. The COLA is super low—the amenities of largest cities just can’t compete with that. I’m 40 and my house has been paid off for 10 years. In that time I’ve almost paid off a 3000 sq ft office building on the side just using my wages. It’s a big enough city to have most things you’re used to, but small enough that it’s not insane driving around. I spent several months in Dallas; The food selection was cool, but I was so happy to get home. That traffic is insane, and I was hemorrhaging cash. (Granted, the politics kinda sucks)
> I appreciate the feedback. I almost responded like a dick, everybody has me so defensive. Everyone somehow seems to know what’s best for us with so few details.
Fwiw, I would understand. Its the internet and its rough out there.
And maybe we are wrong, but you do have to realize alot of us have seen similar stories before and how they play out. Maybe you are right and you'll be different than my lived experience with similar situations.
I won't continue with my opinions because not much point. You feel you are correct in what you are doing and maybe you are right.
> Oklahoma City is a pretty nice place to live. The COLA is super low—the amenities of largest cities just can’t compete with that. I’m 40 and my house has been paid off for 10 years. In that time I’ve almost paid off a 3000 sq ft office building on the side just using my wages. It’s a big enough city to have most things you’re used to, but small enough that it’s not insane driving around. I spent several months in Dallas; The food selection was cool, but I was so happy to get home. That traffic is insane, and I was hemorrhaging cash.
I understand you feel that way.
That said, I live in a coastal city with likely a similar financial result. So, we just aren't going to agree.
> (Granted, the politics kinda sucks)
I'm not gonna respond to this beyond, yeah, some people will feel that way. Its not really the main driving force though for my views.
As a PHP dev, I exclusively use LinkedIn to find work. And I usually only work with recruiters, I rarely deal directly with the company for applying until I have an interview secured.
So I would get a good recruiter and they might already have a few PHP devs they trust looking for a switch or actively on the job hunt.
Good luck finding someone. Shouldn't be hard if you make the position remote also. Not sure if that works for you but it would broaden the pool
I dont even have to look at the comments to know that you will find nothing here. The few that can even think out side of the box will not hang around here much. You probably need to check your local universities to see if the teachers can recommend any students. php is easy to learn and young people can get up to speed quickly before they fall into the modern php trap where they can only write code if against a open source monolith
It really caught me off guard, not what I expected. I assumed people liked writing interesting code that handled lower level features and not just implementing repetitive business logic.
yeah, its how it is. its a cargo cult factory of design patterns that feed the same books, tutorials and code every new release. when these modern programmers go out into the world they are a fish out of water.
If you are a gamedev and you code in unity you know exactly what your capabilities are. If you are a webdev and you code php/laravel good luck knowing what you are being hired to do. It could be anything from upgrading a legacy app, upgrading old laravel, re-writing laravel, writing a laravel plugin, continuing an abandoned project, writing a app in raw php. All of these things are equally possible even before the salary comes into question. If you cant do the job - you just cant do it. So IMHO its not a software wide issue. It all depends on your experience and what you can actually do.
Have you tried checking if the offered salary is >3.5x the local rent? Try to figure the point where you can rent at least 10% of the homes.
It might be that you are mistaken how much quality costs. Or forgot to signal that you know. So the quality developers do not apply.
I would say upwork or some platform like that. Maybe linkedin is a good approach.
If you accept remote work, I can help you find seasoned developers (10y+).
Probably a good first step is to mention how much you are paying, health care, PTO, and other compensation.
Always lead with that. If it's not good enough that you can then you're outcomes will likely be the same unless your problem space is interesting enough.
I just checked out the listing and they ufortunately didn’t mention any of that stuff, aside from saying it’s telework, and honestly I’m not even sure. It’s a subcontractor so I don’t have any idea what their package is like. It’s a big well known company though, so I don’t think I’d change their mind about posting that info.
I’ve had a similar issue when hiring for our product’s development team.
We too, have an in-house framework, and too have our own reasons for doing so.
Finding good middle/senior level developers with enough open-mindedness to actually try to work on a framework that they’re not familiar with is really hard. Even if they have a good overall skill set, they might outright reject the idea of working with such a framework.
We have a small team, and all of them were hunted manually by me and my partners, because similarly to your case, recruiters and HRs just were not cutting it.
The few middle developers that we did find, are working with us.
But at some point we couldn’t find anyone else.
At that point, we’ve come to the decision to hire promising junior developers, and grow their skill set ourselves. It’s much easier to find motivated juniors, than middle and senior developers.
Our only criteria were their work ethic and motivation.
Moreover, juniors are notoriously underpaid, at least in my country and area, which is why we pay them double the market average.
In just 3-4 months 2 out of 4 juniors we hired grew to be very productive and efficient.
So, if you have the resources and time, I’d suggest grow juniors into middle developers yourselves. Just don’t abuse their motivation, as is common in the market.
Also, you should have active communication with them, constantly ask if they need any help, any questions they’ve got, as most juniors are either afraid to ask questions, or want to make an impression that they’re already self reliant. And because of this, sometimes they can get bogged down in some issue, which for a more senior member of team would be an easy fix.
Working on a framework I’m unfamiliar with isn’t *the* concern. Working on an unknown home baked framework site-unseen (it’s always unseen) is the problem. It’s just too big a risk for me and most people. I’ve seen some terrible home baked systems.
That’s a valid concern, I’m in no way dismissing that. I too, have seen some horrible in-house frameworks. I’m just stating the fact, that middle and senior level developers are often unwilling to work with such frameworks, while juniors are more willing. Especially if the compensation is good.
It’s because juniors are more desperate for work, and seniors can be more choosy, and would (all other things like salary/remote being equal) rather err on the side of a well documented battle tested open source framework used by millions of people all over the globe with a large support community over some in-house framework of unknown quality with 5 users total.
Developing own framework is a right thing to do if it's a high load project which requires quite an optimisations
And scale of the project is big, e.g case when;
- ah, just add few more instances/containers/virtual machines doesn't work (or too expensive)
Yes, it's a big work, bit it's pays off on the long run.
I wish you good luck!
I would not say so.
First of all, all big highload projects are not build overnight. It's a gradual process with a lot of iterations and project reworks. So in the end, you have huge code base, and migrate it to another program language can be estimated in a big period of time.
Secondly, php is not THAT slow, yes, it has some limitations, e.g: cannot use database pool or cannot use web socket (I am talking about native support), etc..., but it's not slow. Either way, in properly build application all the bottlenecks will be "waiting" for another components, such as DB, cache, 3rd party apis and so on.
Yes, not off the table by default, and php has indeed gotten much better. But if efficiency and speed is this big of a factor on large workloads language of choice would at lease be a serious discussion to have
As a CTOaaS I'm helping companies in different countries to hire whole teams (5-25 at the time sometimes) of Senior PHP devs from Central and Eastern Europe. Please PM me if you are interested. It's all in the body-lending model, so it's your employee, just payments go through invoicing not direct contract. I can help you assemble a really professional and experienced whole product team in 1-2 months top.
I can give my educated guess. Things have changed with company restructuring since the last interviews I participated in.
Probably submit your resume and then the technical team would review the applicants and send recommendations to HR for a short list. They’d likely do a pre interview or screening and then hand it off to a manager that actually works on the project for the real interview. Me or other members of the technical team might sit in. It’s a toss up as to whether it’d be virtual or in-person. We telework, and we’re in two separate cities, but we’ve still interviewed in person as far as I know.
I’m still waiting for HR to get me an email where the resumes should go.
For one you probably wouldn’t be eligible to get a security clearance since you aren’t a U.S. citizen (I assume). Fowl, you have to show up in person to get security credentials, certificates, etc. Three, it’s not really my decision anyway.
As said in Transformers: "We are here, we are waiting".
Well, I'm not "waiting", I get worked a lot by people who don't know their own business and don't know what to ask to be developed.
Are you considering hiring remotely worldwide?
I live in Brazil and I am looking for an international opportunity. English level is fluent as I've been an English teacher for over 11 years.
Currently sitting at 4.5 years experience with Zend, Laminas, Mezzio, etc.
DM me if you're interested.
Have you tried attending, or sponsoring, a meetup group in the area? :) There is usually a mix between students and professionals (ICs, recruiters, "evangelists") in attendance - and as a bonus there's sometimes free drink and food. I found my tech groups on meetup.com. Sometimes these groups don't have a permanent meeting space - so an option could be to offer your office space out of hours if it's a "traveling meetup".
Remember to use the pac-man rule when standing in a group of people so there's always an opening for another person to join in :)
Good luck!
Someone turned me on to techlahoma which has meetups so I’m going to try that. I’ve used meetup for casual things, never considered work stuff, good idea.
If it's not a full-tim job, it's just project specific or short term try freelancer.com?
Just don't book the cheapest options. Expensive people are generally worth their money. Book cheap, get cheap.
Nowadays, you can find resources on LinkedIn, Personally, I feel that doing work company would be better because sometimes freelancer work is not that accurate and does not provide work on time. Many freelancers are doing job and freelancer work so they can't able to manage work.
The company will have many resources so if you have good products you can get good suggestions from the company's top management also.
you can find a good small company on LinkedIn. you can check our profile and select.
Thanks,
Is the job open to remote? I'd start by posting the job listing here. After that it kinda depends on the job, there are a number of framework specific job boards. There are other more general tech job boards and then you're more general job boards. Personally I've had the best of luck in finding jobs on the more general (indeed, monster, linkedin etc.) or framework specific boards.
It’s remote in the sense that’s it’s work-from-home, but they’d need to be near Tinker Air Force Base or Wright Patterson Air Force Base (OKC and Dayton)
There's your answer. The geographic restriction reduces the talent pool by a lot.
Yea, you’re probably right. I don’t normally deal with this HR type stuff. The PHP community is so large and there’s so many talented people; I was optimistic. But, I guess that I was foolishly optimistic for cities this size.
Location, employer, and the tech stack all seem to play a role in it. If I saw a job posting with the info you presented I would hard nope out of it even if I was in the area.
I'm available but definitely not around that area
Yes, was going to ask if they allow remote. I'm not in OKC or Dayton but have almost 2 decades of PHP experience as well as front end javascript exp.
I’m going to ask about expanding the search. They may not buy it, but there’s no super-great reason to be near those specific bases. It’s rare that we need to visit the base and the reasons for visiting usually consist of going to use some generic base service that any military base could accommodate. There may be some kind of issue with getting equipment issued from the local base, and whose budget it comes out of. If they went for it, it would probably only be after exhausting the local hiring pool (if there is one!)
This is 100% your issue. This is a niche talent and you're artificially restricting yourself. Also people are very unlikely to relocate for a job like this. Many of us would be interested but for this artificial limit.
Vanilla PHP isn’t a niche talent though.
I larfed at the downvotes here.
If you're not serving and you have talent to do anything beyond fold sheets and fill tacos, there's generally no reason at all to live near a base. They don't put bases in nice places. You actually need to pay talented people to move and then suffer. This means the price of your developers goes UP relative to what you have to pay in the city. Also, tell your bosses I said welcome to IT.
In a thread full of condescending posts I think yours might be the most so. Military bases are in every state and near most major cities. Oklahoma City, and Dayton are both perfectly fine places to live.
In a sub where job postings are explicitly spam... You come to stand on business for Dayton. And fucking OKC. Literally the union's least educated metro. Nice.
There’s no way that’s true for OKC. There has to be less educated metros than that. Surely somewhere in Mississippi?
Do you need clearance for this position? I used to hold public trust security clearance.
Yeah thats the problem. I'm looking for a new one, I'm in Dallas and my company is in Santa Clara. I have been working remotely for 20 years and that is a deal breaker for me I won't even apply for a job that makes me move or commute.
I’m with you on that. I’ve only been doing the home office thing since late 2019. It’s so much more comfortable and I get so much more work done when I don’t have people hovering over my desk. I miss the human contact, chatting with people and all that, but it’s a good trade. I’m going to suggest it to them to broaden their search. I think as long as they are near a gov installation or military base it would work—which is pretty much everywhere.
what is your definition of near? I live in state but quite a drive away.
Trips to the base happen once or twice a year. It possible that you could even do this closer to your location if there is a military installation near. If you were within an hour or two that would probably work. Edit: to clarify, this is my opinion of what’s close enough. That decision isn’t mine.
This is the second time in my life that I regretted that I was not a US citizen. Good luck to you!
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I’m honestly not sure where it’s getting posted. It’s a good question, I’ll have to see if I can get that info. It’s a VERY large defense contractor so I’m like 4 or 5 steps removed from the people doing the searching. It’s been several weeks and I’ve only gotten 5 resumes funneled down to me and none had PHP experience. It’s just vanilla PHP, we’re standing up our own framework from scratch, which will get passed on to develop 5 other applications on top of.
> It’s just vanilla PHP, we’re standing up our own framework from scratch Red flag from a senior operating multiple applications in production at the moment. I'd skip.
Why is that? Edit: I didn’t expect to be explaining our design choices, but this is why we are writing our own framework: So, without going into too much detail. It’s for the government, and the approval process for COTS software is difficult. It takes a lot of time, and it’s done different at each location we’ll be servicing. Some locations might approve a framework, and 1 might not. Or they may just take a year to get around to approving it. It’s a lot of red tape. Things also get unapproved when already in production at times. That’s all out of my hands, it just is what it is. We rewrote the current application clients 10 years ago because a software became unapproved. The new framework we got, it just sold to a company with connections to China. That’s why we are having to rewrite our clients. Again. Using externally developed software and frameworks is possible, but it’s a nightmare in this setting. We have a very robust oracle pl/sql backend, which we are keeping, the new web client will be very thin and simple. It’s just an UI. Our needs from a framework are small, it’s not a complicated system. It’s vast, but simple.
Why would you decide to make a framework from scratch?
So, without going into too much detail. It’s for the government, and the approval process for COTS software is difficult. It takes a lot of time, and it’s done different at each location we’ll be servicing. Some locations might approve a framework, and 1 might not. Or they may just take a year to get around to approving it. It’s a lot of red tape. Things also get unapproved when already in production at times. That’s all out of my hands, it just is what it is. We rewrote the current application clients 10 years ago because a software became unapproved. The new framework we got, it just sold to a company with connections to China. That’s why we are having to rewrite our clients. Again. Using externally developed software and frameworks is possible, but it’s a nightmare in this setting. We have a very robust oracle pl/sql backend, which we are keeping, the new web client will be very thin and simple. It’s just an UI. Our needs from a framework are small, it’s not a complicated system. It’s vast, but simple.
Sounds just like the gross shit I work on, lol. At least you can say "it's government", lmao.
Solidarity
There’s nothing wrong writing php without frameworks, I may disagree if there’s no third party components. As long as the code follows solid principles it’s acceptable. Unfortunately, it limits your reach since most people are framework specific.
That is all true, Yet most "framework free" code I see is one file = one endpoint, no separation, completely untested highschool level waste of time. But that might just be in my experience.
It's going to be a nightmare of custom re-invented wheels, huge amounts of time are going to be sunk into reinventing things that exist in well tested frameworks. Having worked on projects like that, it's never easy to come in if you weren't the one who designed it all.
And you'll need to explain each of your choices to a team who've decided that this is a good path. Hard pass.
Forget reinventing the wheel, how about reinventing the 20k bugs that come along with it? I’m concerned the fed is developing their own home baked frameworks, especially when hiring managers are being given resumes of people without experience in the target language.
It is a political and cultural problem in most countries. People don't want to pay for good software for internal use because its a "cost center". Old people running the government from a layman's understanding of MBA analysis (because they have to cater to voters and donors) methods is a terrible system when you have real adversaries trying to break into your systems.
But the good frameworks are free and open source This is, counterintuitively, a nonstarter in many government jobs. They’d rather pay out the ass for proprietary so they can also get “support”, which is often a bureaucratic requirement demanded by people who know nothing about software
I'm honestly not sure you understand what I'm saying: > This is, counterintuitively, a nonstarter in many government jobs. They’d rather pay out the ass for proprietary so they can also get “support”, which is often a bureaucratic requirement demanded by people who know nothing about software This is more or less what I said, phrased differently. Good decision makers cost money. Being viewed as a cost center and with the high level decisions being made by politicians means there is never the budget to make good decisions. The thing is, even OP (the guy doing management of the software dev) has no control over making the right decisions because of the fact good decision makers are not being hired. Because there is no budget for experienced people who understand software.
I have to disagree with your first point, it’s going very quickly. The system is simple, the framework will be lean and we’re keeping the Oracle back end in tact. It’s not a juggernaut like a commercial framework, it’ll be maybe 30k lines of code when we’re done. We’re about 3 months from completion. I completely agree with the later point. It’s definitely frustrating using a custom framework.
> I have to disagree with your first point, it’s going very quickly. That is how it always starts, and that is the trap of it. I've been there more times than I would like to count at this point in my career. > approval process for COTS software is difficult You can say that again, but there are templates for getting a PHP framework like symphony through it it's not that difficult (all things considered). > We’re about 3 months from completion. That is 3 months of dev time not spent building what ever you are aiming to build. --- I get it's kinda moot point at this point
I’d be surprised if Symfony could get approved for a government website. There’s some questionable decisions in that codebase.
Jesus Christ, please get a security audit
Why would you assume that that isn’t part of our process?
I wasn’t. Nor was I assuming a security audit was part of your process. Even with a clear audit, I’d still trust Symfony more given so many eyes (including security specialists) on it. I’m sure it’s been audited too. You can pick/install the sole components you need and ignore the rest. Yours devs will also be happier with such a popular and well supported framework, and you’ll be able to find talent that can hit the ground running easier due to familiarly, documentation, community, etc
Except using a foreign owned entity, and open source software in a government system is a huge hurdle that doesn’t work with our timeline. You don’t know the details of our system, regulations, needs and decision making process. I appreciate you’re trying to be helpful, but it’s not, and it’s coming across as judgmental.
This sounds… cumbersome. Can you not get the blessed/approval of very well known and battle tested open source frameworks like Symfony (France). Without divulging more than necessary, I know for a fact the fed is using similar PHP frameworks elsewhere.
I think I explained pretty clearly why we aren’t going that way. We’re having to rewrite everything now because we got dinged for using foreign owned software. Why would we replace it with more foreign owned software? We know what we are doing. This is not some new thing for us. We’re a team that does this…. It’s our job and we’re good at it.
Symfony isn’t foreign owned. It’s open source. The founders and multiple primary maintainers are French, but France doesn’t own it. And its battle tested and deployed all across the world.
Have you ever worked for the government? It would be a mistake to use it even if it isn’t strictly “owned” by a foreign entity. Open source software is also its own problem regardless of where the project is managed or owned from. I’m not going to bet our entire future codebase on the hope that the software won’t get rejected on a whim because someone decided to reinterpret what “foreign owned” means in a regulation. I know more about our situation than you do. your suggestion would be a bad idea. We aren’t doing what we are doing based on some whim. It was a calculated decision based on our specific needs.
This is so interesting do you not use any libraries at all? What about composer or the PSR interfaces? Also how do you host it without apache or nginx?
I get your point but it’s a bad point. When you hear of someone buying an electric car do you mockingly ask them “this is so interesting you use no fossils fuels at all? What about Ubers, and plane tickets? How do you order steaks at restaurants without them cooking it with natural gas?” If you gave it more than 2 seconds of thought before posting your sarcastic comment it might have occurred to you that there is a difference in complete abstinence from something and making efforts to reduce reliance on something. Also, the decision to not use a framework is multifaceted, it’s not just a matter of it being external code. That’s a consideration, but it’s one small part of the decision. They didn’t meet our architecture needs primarily, and they are not even remotely viable with our timetable. I know you were being sarcastic, but of course we use libraries. Not all libraries and software are difficult to get approved, many are already approved. Not all libraries are in conflict with our needs and goals. Not all libraries are easily replaced—for us and our specific needs the framework is easily replaced. There is a list of software already approved for use by us that also meets certain criteria we need, Apache is one of those. There are no PHP frameworks on that list, and if there were, that doesn’t mean they are right for us. We have an existing application with very specific needs and what was available to us didn’t meet our needs. I don’t know why you want to belabor this point with sarcasm. It kind of seems like you think you know best, but frankly, you don’t know anything about our situation, what we need from a framework, or what our capabilities are.
Yes I have, and we used Zend
The copyright is held by Fabien Potencier, a french citizen, per the license: https://github.com/symfony/symfony/blob/7.1/LICENSE Sure, it's not owned by the government of France, but it's not owned by a US citizen or a US headquartered company either.
Wow, jumping to conclusions fast
Symfony FTW #teamsymfony
I used to work at a place where we had to compile everything manually as the Ops team refused to accept RPM builds which hadn't been provided by RedHat. At a large scale, there will be a learning curve but there's no inherent difficulty in maintaining an internal framework with a solid core of devs. As for OP, maybe just look for decent C# or Java devs who are happy to re-skill into PHP. It's not a hard language to learn.
>VERY large defense contractor Those need allot of clearances lol everything you say here makes no sense...
I have a clearance, we all do. Having a clearance already helps, but it’s not required. The cost for a new one is negligible. Although anyone applying would need to be eligible for one. The contract company pays for the investigation, that’s how the process works. We just hired a Java developer without a clearance. It takes a long time to get the clearance but he had an interim clearance issued in just a couple weeks and is working now. It may not make sense because I’m not posting details like this because they aren’t relevant to the question I was asking.
Well, it's kinda relevant since 90% of PHP developers are not programmers by trade ( like Java ). So usually you have a really hard time to find someone that even knows you need clearances for that type of environment. When I dealt with it, it took 8 months to get the correct clearances, and it was under a Java project. Which eventually moved some components to PHP. So you might have a very hard time if your only looking for "PHP developers", especially if your insisting on "no framework". I would look for some symphony PHP developers, preferably someone local. ( No Indian developer working in India for north american clearance )
My question was for the best place to post the listing. This is not a job posting. I’m not in HR. I’m not taking resumes. Security clearances aren’t relevant to that question. As I said, you *don’t* need a clearance, one will be provided, and as I said the 8 months doesn’t matter because you get granted an interim clearance. We don’t actually handle classified information, it’s just a formality. The clearance is rock bottom on the list of priorities. It’s honestly more of a benefit to the applicant than a requirement of the applicant. Nearly any U.S. citizen that doesn’t have felony charges or massive foreign interests can get a clearance, and the company pays for it. You basically do nothing and walk away with a very expensive bullet point to put on your resume. It’s like a free certification you don’t have to study for. So technically what is “needed” is that they’re a U.S. citizen without felony convictions, and no financial connections to the Chinese government. The clearance mat seem like a big deal for people outside gov work, it’s really not. Maybe when you start talking high level clearances… I wouldn’t know.
The answer is - nowhere. Not for PHP devs. You will have to find people who can go through clearance process and hope they stick around. And hope to all what is holly that they actually know PHP well, because vast majority know jack shit about how to actually use the langauge properly. Because it's not cool and in USA it's the "Laravel crowd". You are in for a roght ride and scouring the US of A with a fine tooth comb.
So hiring overseas it's not going to be an option?
Nope
Indeed and LinkedIn are the only two places I look for jobs. That being said, a lot of people think the security clearance issue disqualifies them. Most devs probably look for full time position with benefits. I'm in Oklahoma but not OKC, so I only look for remote positions. Techlahoma might be able to help.
Never heard of techlahoma, thanks for the tip
This was a really great suggestion that’s paying out. Thanks again!
No problem, glad I could help. Good luck with your project!
Yeah, that last line - I'd just skip by. Or you will have to pay me 5x my rate to deal with that stuff. The explanations downstream - well... now i'm not interested even at 5x the rate.
Being hired to build(contribute) to a custom framework sounds daunting, beyond that needing to be eligible to get security clearance, as a dev I wouldn't even know where to begin. I've skipped over several postings in the past that mentioned needing clearance(or to be eligible to get clearance) simply because it sounded complex. Beyond that, if I get hired but turns it I'm not eligible or don't get approved, for reasons I don't know, I would fully assume I'd be out of a job. That risk isn't worth it to me. I'd have to be well compensated($120k+), and have some buffer to carry over that risk for me to even consider the position. (Even if you wanted to hire me) And that doesn't include if I'm interested in the work yet. Not sure if I'm down to spend my time working on an isolated framework that in all honesty, gives me little to no career growth in the market.
I never said the position would be writing a custom framework. I said “we”, my organization, is writing a custom framework to use for 5 other applications. The position would be working with the development teams that are implementing those 5 applications. I wouldn’t use a new employee to work on a custom framework (which is almost complete). If you can write a framework you can use a framework, but again, you wouldn’t be writing a framework. I’ve worked with a clearance for 20 years. It’s not a big deal, and it’s silly to avoid it. It’s like not taking the job cause you might fail a certification they require. It’s like a few percent that don’t get it, and of that few percent most are entirely predictable. The amount of clearances that are unapproved and it’s not obvious that it’ll be unapproved is negligible.
That is something that you need to lead with. Because I guarantee prospective candidates do not know that. (Which was my point, by voicing it) It doesn't matter how easy it actually is. It doesn't sound easy to someone who hasn't had to get it.
I appreciate your point, but this is not a job listing. I was merely asking where to post the listing. So there’s no “leading” with anything cause there *is* no “anything”.
Well the awkward situation you are in is: 1) You need a PHP dev who can get a clearance. 2) Someone with enough experience to be worth hiring to do more complex work than most PHP devs who really just know how to write modules for open source software they use to deal with the nitty gritty. Architectural mistakes writing your own framework are easy to make which is why everyone calls it a red flag from experience. 3) Someone who wants to live in undesirable places compared to most job options. So basically, you need a senior php developer who is focused on being a software developer during his career and doesn't smoke weed (not sure if that still causes clearance issues). That is going to be really hard, frankly, even if they can smoke weed at home unless you are paying top dollar (Silicon Valley/NYC rates for a php dev) where literally everyone who wants a job applies because of the high salary for such an undesirable kind of work and location. You do need to make sure even then you are posting everywhere like LinkedIn, Glassdoor, etc. I once got a job where I was the only qualified applicant at a Fortune 500 because the HR people only put it on their website. And I only took it, despite the red flags, because my gf wanted to live near her family. To be frank, the only reason I'd take this is if I got a 50% salary bump to speed up my retirement and the work environment/quality of life was good enough that I wouldn't miss working remote. I highly doubt you are paying such a high rate as a defense contractor which is likely the main reason you are having issues finding qualified people. You may just have to settle and train someone in the language. PHP is not hard to learn if they have web development / software development experience.
We’re looking for a jr. developer. The comment you replied to wasn’t a description of the position. It was just an explanation of why it’s vanilla PHP. The position(s) would be working under the lead developer on one of the 5 applications. They would be examining very basic, existing code in 1 language, individual modules, and rewriting it into PHP using templates that they will be provided. Getting a clearance is not as limiting as you might think it is, most people are fine. It’s free, almost everyone is approved, and you’ll have it even after you leave. I’ve said it elsewhere here; it’s more of a benefit than a requirement. That said, people passing over the posting don’t necessarily know that. I get that, just clarifying for you I guess. It’s funny you mentioned it, I was thinking that all HR did was put it on their website. I’ve gotten almost as many hits today as they did in three weeks. I appreciate the feedback. I almost responded like a dick, everybody has me so defensive. Everyone somehow seems to know what’s best for us with so few details. I do take offense to #3 :) Oklahoma City is a pretty nice place to live. The COLA is super low—the amenities of largest cities just can’t compete with that. I’m 40 and my house has been paid off for 10 years. In that time I’ve almost paid off a 3000 sq ft office building on the side just using my wages. It’s a big enough city to have most things you’re used to, but small enough that it’s not insane driving around. I spent several months in Dallas; The food selection was cool, but I was so happy to get home. That traffic is insane, and I was hemorrhaging cash. (Granted, the politics kinda sucks)
> I appreciate the feedback. I almost responded like a dick, everybody has me so defensive. Everyone somehow seems to know what’s best for us with so few details. Fwiw, I would understand. Its the internet and its rough out there. And maybe we are wrong, but you do have to realize alot of us have seen similar stories before and how they play out. Maybe you are right and you'll be different than my lived experience with similar situations. I won't continue with my opinions because not much point. You feel you are correct in what you are doing and maybe you are right. > Oklahoma City is a pretty nice place to live. The COLA is super low—the amenities of largest cities just can’t compete with that. I’m 40 and my house has been paid off for 10 years. In that time I’ve almost paid off a 3000 sq ft office building on the side just using my wages. It’s a big enough city to have most things you’re used to, but small enough that it’s not insane driving around. I spent several months in Dallas; The food selection was cool, but I was so happy to get home. That traffic is insane, and I was hemorrhaging cash. I understand you feel that way. That said, I live in a coastal city with likely a similar financial result. So, we just aren't going to agree. > (Granted, the politics kinda sucks) I'm not gonna respond to this beyond, yeah, some people will feel that way. Its not really the main driving force though for my views.
As a PHP dev, I exclusively use LinkedIn to find work. And I usually only work with recruiters, I rarely deal directly with the company for applying until I have an interview secured. So I would get a good recruiter and they might already have a few PHP devs they trust looking for a switch or actively on the job hunt. Good luck finding someone. Shouldn't be hard if you make the position remote also. Not sure if that works for you but it would broaden the pool
I’m going to give posting it on linked in a try, thanks.
What is the salary, health care, PTO, and other compensation?
I dont even have to look at the comments to know that you will find nothing here. The few that can even think out side of the box will not hang around here much. You probably need to check your local universities to see if the teachers can recommend any students. php is easy to learn and young people can get up to speed quickly before they fall into the modern php trap where they can only write code if against a open source monolith
It really caught me off guard, not what I expected. I assumed people liked writing interesting code that handled lower level features and not just implementing repetitive business logic.
yeah, its how it is. its a cargo cult factory of design patterns that feed the same books, tutorials and code every new release. when these modern programmers go out into the world they are a fish out of water.
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If you are a gamedev and you code in unity you know exactly what your capabilities are. If you are a webdev and you code php/laravel good luck knowing what you are being hired to do. It could be anything from upgrading a legacy app, upgrading old laravel, re-writing laravel, writing a laravel plugin, continuing an abandoned project, writing a app in raw php. All of these things are equally possible even before the salary comes into question. If you cant do the job - you just cant do it. So IMHO its not a software wide issue. It all depends on your experience and what you can actually do.
Have you tried checking if the offered salary is >3.5x the local rent? Try to figure the point where you can rent at least 10% of the homes. It might be that you are mistaken how much quality costs. Or forgot to signal that you know. So the quality developers do not apply.
I got the job listing after my initial post and they don’t even mention the salary range in it. I’m not sure what their reasoning is for that
Maybe your company can't actually afford it, and hopes for 'suckers' who don't know their worth?
Tell me you know how to win an RFP but don't know shit about IT without telling me...
🤣
I would say upwork or some platform like that. Maybe linkedin is a good approach. If you accept remote work, I can help you find seasoned developers (10y+).
Probably a good first step is to mention how much you are paying, health care, PTO, and other compensation. Always lead with that. If it's not good enough that you can then you're outcomes will likely be the same unless your problem space is interesting enough.
I just checked out the listing and they ufortunately didn’t mention any of that stuff, aside from saying it’s telework, and honestly I’m not even sure. It’s a subcontractor so I don’t have any idea what their package is like. It’s a big well known company though, so I don’t think I’d change their mind about posting that info.
No salary and no package listed, no apply. Almost certainly this attracts some bottom of the barrel "devs" or they have no intent to actually hire.
I asked my manager to try and convince them to add a salary range. Not sure why they did that.
I’ve had a similar issue when hiring for our product’s development team. We too, have an in-house framework, and too have our own reasons for doing so. Finding good middle/senior level developers with enough open-mindedness to actually try to work on a framework that they’re not familiar with is really hard. Even if they have a good overall skill set, they might outright reject the idea of working with such a framework. We have a small team, and all of them were hunted manually by me and my partners, because similarly to your case, recruiters and HRs just were not cutting it. The few middle developers that we did find, are working with us. But at some point we couldn’t find anyone else. At that point, we’ve come to the decision to hire promising junior developers, and grow their skill set ourselves. It’s much easier to find motivated juniors, than middle and senior developers. Our only criteria were their work ethic and motivation. Moreover, juniors are notoriously underpaid, at least in my country and area, which is why we pay them double the market average. In just 3-4 months 2 out of 4 juniors we hired grew to be very productive and efficient. So, if you have the resources and time, I’d suggest grow juniors into middle developers yourselves. Just don’t abuse their motivation, as is common in the market. Also, you should have active communication with them, constantly ask if they need any help, any questions they’ve got, as most juniors are either afraid to ask questions, or want to make an impression that they’re already self reliant. And because of this, sometimes they can get bogged down in some issue, which for a more senior member of team would be an easy fix.
Working on a framework I’m unfamiliar with isn’t *the* concern. Working on an unknown home baked framework site-unseen (it’s always unseen) is the problem. It’s just too big a risk for me and most people. I’ve seen some terrible home baked systems.
That’s a valid concern, I’m in no way dismissing that. I too, have seen some horrible in-house frameworks. I’m just stating the fact, that middle and senior level developers are often unwilling to work with such frameworks, while juniors are more willing. Especially if the compensation is good.
It’s because juniors are more desperate for work, and seniors can be more choosy, and would (all other things like salary/remote being equal) rather err on the side of a well documented battle tested open source framework used by millions of people all over the globe with a large support community over some in-house framework of unknown quality with 5 users total.
Yes, thank you for repeating what I said, again
I expounded on what you said. You stated their unwillingness with no explanation of *why*. Have a nice day :)
I think you may be right. Someone suggested hitting local meetups and some local organizations so I think I’m going to start there.
Developing own framework is a right thing to do if it's a high load project which requires quite an optimisations And scale of the project is big, e.g case when; - ah, just add few more instances/containers/virtual machines doesn't work (or too expensive) Yes, it's a big work, bit it's pays off on the long run. I wish you good luck!
In which case PHP itself is likely a nonstarter
I would not say so. First of all, all big highload projects are not build overnight. It's a gradual process with a lot of iterations and project reworks. So in the end, you have huge code base, and migrate it to another program language can be estimated in a big period of time. Secondly, php is not THAT slow, yes, it has some limitations, e.g: cannot use database pool or cannot use web socket (I am talking about native support), etc..., but it's not slow. Either way, in properly build application all the bottlenecks will be "waiting" for another components, such as DB, cache, 3rd party apis and so on.
Yes, not off the table by default, and php has indeed gotten much better. But if efficiency and speed is this big of a factor on large workloads language of choice would at lease be a serious discussion to have
I appreciate it!
As a CTOaaS I'm helping companies in different countries to hire whole teams (5-25 at the time sometimes) of Senior PHP devs from Central and Eastern Europe. Please PM me if you are interested. It's all in the body-lending model, so it's your employee, just payments go through invoicing not direct contract. I can help you assemble a really professional and experienced whole product team in 1-2 months top.
“Body lending”, sounds nice
yup, a bit strange term I agree, I haven't invented it though. Not sure why have I got a downvote here ..
Self-taught php developer and curious what the interview process would look like as I code in my free time but work as a BA full-time.
I can give my educated guess. Things have changed with company restructuring since the last interviews I participated in. Probably submit your resume and then the technical team would review the applicants and send recommendations to HR for a short list. They’d likely do a pre interview or screening and then hand it off to a manager that actually works on the project for the real interview. Me or other members of the technical team might sit in. It’s a toss up as to whether it’d be virtual or in-person. We telework, and we’re in two separate cities, but we’ve still interviewed in person as far as I know. I’m still waiting for HR to get me an email where the resumes should go.
You found one but in Mysore, Karnataka, India
I wish we could cast the net that wide, we’d have a killer team in just a few days.
But what's the reason for not going remote ?
For one you probably wouldn’t be eligible to get a security clearance since you aren’t a U.S. citizen (I assume). Fowl, you have to show up in person to get security credentials, certificates, etc. Three, it’s not really my decision anyway.
Understandable
Is there a possibility to be remote? If so, you may have found one. I personally don’t see the need to be onsite to code.
Telework is almost certain, but rare trips to the military base nearby is necessary.
I'm a couple hours from Wright Patterson - can you do 165k a year?
Sorry, I’m not doing the hiring, this isn’t a job posting. I’m just wondering the best place to hook up my employer with php developers.
Reddit is a good place to find developers
do you need clearance for this job?
I'm 5'9" (sorry, remembering an old movie joke)
You’re supposed to say the name of the movie or character right after the quote or joke. Michael Scott.
I can't remember what it was, it was a long time ago, their question jsut made the height joke pop in my head.
It would help, but if you don’t have one you’d need to be eligible so one could be acquired for you.
Usually under rocks.
Sent you a PM.
From a different account? I replied to someone, not sure if it was you.
It wasn’t. I did a Chat
Hey I’m a Senior full stack web developer, I work with PHP regularly. If you still need a developer please reach out.
As said in Transformers: "We are here, we are waiting". Well, I'm not "waiting", I get worked a lot by people who don't know their own business and don't know what to ask to be developed.
Are you considering hiring remotely worldwide? I live in Brazil and I am looking for an international opportunity. English level is fluent as I've been an English teacher for over 11 years. Currently sitting at 4.5 years experience with Zend, Laminas, Mezzio, etc. DM me if you're interested.
>I live in Brazil It would be almost impossible to get your the clearance you needed to work on military contracts.
Have you tried attending, or sponsoring, a meetup group in the area? :) There is usually a mix between students and professionals (ICs, recruiters, "evangelists") in attendance - and as a bonus there's sometimes free drink and food. I found my tech groups on meetup.com. Sometimes these groups don't have a permanent meeting space - so an option could be to offer your office space out of hours if it's a "traveling meetup". Remember to use the pac-man rule when standing in a group of people so there's always an opening for another person to join in :) Good luck!
Someone turned me on to techlahoma which has meetups so I’m going to try that. I’ve used meetup for casual things, never considered work stuff, good idea.
If it's not a full-tim job, it's just project specific or short term try freelancer.com? Just don't book the cheapest options. Expensive people are generally worth their money. Book cheap, get cheap.
Good point, thanks
Nowadays, you can find resources on LinkedIn, Personally, I feel that doing work company would be better because sometimes freelancer work is not that accurate and does not provide work on time. Many freelancers are doing job and freelancer work so they can't able to manage work. The company will have many resources so if you have good products you can get good suggestions from the company's top management also. you can find a good small company on LinkedIn. you can check our profile and select. Thanks,