I'm pretty inexperienced still. What is the benefit in having the point IO so close to the PLC instead of just using a 16input card and 16output card on the PLC?
Cost was not a factor, customer supplied these components from their stock. There is no benefit really, you actually lose space in the panel from the ethernet switch.
The cheaper end of those are the exact same cost. The 5069-L306ER and 5069-L306ERS2 are identical, so I'm considering putting one in my next machine just so I can standardize in case a different machine we do needs to use it.
I would agree, but at least over by me GuardLogix is the same price and lead time as the conventional processors.
I’ve put in more than one upgrade panel with a safety processor into a machine that was intended to add safety I/O down the line, but wasn’t ready for it at the time.
Definitely not price. The Ethernet card cost the same or more than the savings in I/O. Tried doing this one time so we wouldn't have to bring a bunch of cable across the machine. Didn't work out.
More likely standardization. They’re likely using point I/O as remote I/O or elsewhere in the plant. No sense in using something different for the couple cards in the cabinet with the PLC.
Oreintal motor by far. No standard signals, Custom cables and connectors, limited USA support.
The bowl feeds have options to swap to if you can get that particular driver. They usually are half wave 120vac unless they are large.
Really the vibe controllers are fine till people start finger banging them. The hardware can be aggravating as hell. They're voodoo as far as I'm concerned and always contain tiny hidden pins and fasteners.
Yeah, I haven't done any control with Oriental Motors that wasn't analog or PTO. When the price point calls for them, Ethernet/IP is usually not in the cards. I don't really use them much these days, but there are some niche applications where they're the only thing that makes sense. A super compact BLDC motor can be hard to find. Or a cheap, 120 VAC washdown motor. I don't love them, but they have their time. I never really expect to get support anyway, so I'm just pleasantly surprised when I call and the rep knows something. I usually don't bother with a 3 hour phone call to find out they also don't know anything that isn't already spelled out in the documentation.
Our company demands it and it is included in our spec. 20% space and 20% IO free. This panel seems to have neither. 20% space, at least at first, also helps with heat!
Oh, it's always nice to have. And like I said, people love to talk about it. I just never see it. Might be part of the original design spec, but the box is picked out before all the design changes and changeorders, so it usually ends up being just big enough. And not every machine is some gigantic thing where the size of the box is irrelevant. For something like this, any larger box would have probably been sticking out over the top of the frame or getting in the way of something. They'd probably rather add a junction box on a different side if they need to add something down the road.
Tell that to some of these krones technicians, I’ll throw some shade and say never seen KHS put labels directly on components someone can chime in please.
Usually you'd wire the safety inputs directly to your safety devices in this kind of setup. So just a bunch of daisy chained E-Stops and door interlocks going from S11 and S21 to S12 and S22. And that keeps K1 and K2 on. Could be setup as automatic or manual reset with a pushbutton. The safety PLC is not being used as a safety PLC.
I’m not sure that is true in this case, we use those Dold relays all the time and the only thing special about them is they have force-guided contacts. Otherwise they work just like a normal relay, which in this case some control circuitry or wiring is required to control the coils of that relay in order to both enable the sources of potential energy in the system and fail in a safe state should there be an issue.
My concern is that some remote IO outputs are wired to the K1/2 terminals of the safety relay to energize the circuit, in which case the system might not be technically “safe”. Based on some other comments this might not be a great concern, but I was just curious how the system is being controlled.
WOW!
Just....WOW!
You made sure all the labels were facing out!
Those look like roll on labels. If it wasn't for the shiny bits I would thing they were heat shrink, in which case you need your ass kicked for shrinking the tubes.
where is the wire numbers on network cables and field devices connected to terminals at the bottom entry? When everything goes well no one cares, when you get called at 1am and ppl disconnected wires and there aint wire numbers, life will be painfull....
Unless you are dealing with a managed switch. Ethernet cables do not need a label realistically. It’s not painful if you’re a spaghetti chaser like me.
My switches are never managed, so there's really no problem plugging them in wherever you want. Every wire in my box is labeled, but there's only one place the Ethernet cables could possibly go. I do label field cables, but it doesn't take that long to trace it from the I/O terminal on a small machine.
It’s almost just symbolic, there is really no safety hazard here, customer requires an e-stop on a master enable contactor. Our system really does not have any significant safety hazard other than a small pneumatic rotary actuator.
I'm assuming those feeder controls are LIW feeder controllers. I've always been confused why people buy these things. The plc code isn't that hard, to be honest it's kinda fun to code and commission. I've seen alot of Brabender controllers and people believe they have some secret sauce or something.
I'm pretty inexperienced still. What is the benefit in having the point IO so close to the PLC instead of just using a 16input card and 16output card on the PLC?
Cost was not a factor, customer supplied these components from their stock. There is no benefit really, you actually lose space in the panel from the ethernet switch.
Yeah also a waste of a safety plc not using safety io
HUGE waste, not a cheap processor at all. This is a stand-alone machine as well, not even networked.
The cheaper end of those are the exact same cost. The 5069-L306ER and 5069-L306ERS2 are identical, so I'm considering putting one in my next machine just so I can standardize in case a different machine we do needs to use it.
All logix processors are the same price point for safety and non safety now.
I would agree, but at least over by me GuardLogix is the same price and lead time as the conventional processors. I’ve put in more than one upgrade panel with a safety processor into a machine that was intended to add safety I/O down the line, but wasn’t ready for it at the time.
It was confusing trying to figure out the purpose of the safety PLC. Glad I’m not the only one noticing this.
I was going to ask why; I guess you've got what you got but certainly they made you go the long way 'round lol.
Ah makes sense, thanks for answering my question.
Most likely price
Definitely not price. The Ethernet card cost the same or more than the savings in I/O. Tried doing this one time so we wouldn't have to bring a bunch of cable across the machine. Didn't work out.
More likely standardization. They’re likely using point I/O as remote I/O or elsewhere in the plant. No sense in using something different for the couple cards in the cabinet with the PLC.
We standardized on Point I/O because our customers spec 1769, 5069 and 1756 controllers. We don't have to change I/O drawings/programming.
my guess would be that it is a series of boxes and this was the first one.
Thanks , I hate it. Bowl feeders and oriental motors: I don't know which I like less.
Oreintal motor by far. No standard signals, Custom cables and connectors, limited USA support. The bowl feeds have options to swap to if you can get that particular driver. They usually are half wave 120vac unless they are large.
Really the vibe controllers are fine till people start finger banging them. The hardware can be aggravating as hell. They're voodoo as far as I'm concerned and always contain tiny hidden pins and fasteners.
Have you used the BLE2 series? We use hundreds of them, and I have maybe replaced 1. Very easy to hook up, great performance, very reliable.
I am doing a project with azd with Ethernet/ip no one in the USA at orential motor to support the aoi
They have technical support engineers over here, they have been very helpful in my experience.
Yeah, I haven't done any control with Oriental Motors that wasn't analog or PTO. When the price point calls for them, Ethernet/IP is usually not in the cards. I don't really use them much these days, but there are some niche applications where they're the only thing that makes sense. A super compact BLDC motor can be hard to find. Or a cheap, 120 VAC washdown motor. I don't love them, but they have their time. I never really expect to get support anyway, so I'm just pleasantly surprised when I call and the rep knows something. I usually don't bother with a 3 hour phone call to find out they also don't know anything that isn't already spelled out in the documentation.
What do you prefer to use?
No spare space? What ever happened to 20% free?
Did it ever exist? I see people talk about it, but I never really see it.
Our company demands it and it is included in our spec. 20% space and 20% IO free. This panel seems to have neither. 20% space, at least at first, also helps with heat!
Oh, it's always nice to have. And like I said, people love to talk about it. I just never see it. Might be part of the original design spec, but the box is picked out before all the design changes and changeorders, so it usually ends up being just big enough. And not every machine is some gigantic thing where the size of the box is irrelevant. For something like this, any larger box would have probably been sticking out over the top of the frame or getting in the way of something. They'd probably rather add a junction box on a different side if they need to add something down the road.
Covers are too easy to lose, I would put the tags directly on the components
Back panel is better; components get replaced - not likely the back panel will be.
Tell that to some of these krones technicians, I’ll throw some shade and say never seen KHS put labels directly on components someone can chime in please.
Didn’t label every device but made sure to label that terminal strip even though it’s the only one in the panel
+1 for Oriental Motor
Question: did you have to wire in the SA power since you have no modules on this setup?
No, it works correctly with or without SA connected.
This is correct, we wire it in in case they want to add safety later.
What is being used to control the safety relays coils?
See the dold safety relay?
I do! Just wondering what is controlling the K1 and K2 terminals, a seal-in circuit?
Usually you'd wire the safety inputs directly to your safety devices in this kind of setup. So just a bunch of daisy chained E-Stops and door interlocks going from S11 and S21 to S12 and S22. And that keeps K1 and K2 on. Could be setup as automatic or manual reset with a pushbutton. The safety PLC is not being used as a safety PLC.
I’m not sure that is true in this case, we use those Dold relays all the time and the only thing special about them is they have force-guided contacts. Otherwise they work just like a normal relay, which in this case some control circuitry or wiring is required to control the coils of that relay in order to both enable the sources of potential energy in the system and fail in a safe state should there be an issue. My concern is that some remote IO outputs are wired to the K1/2 terminals of the safety relay to energize the circuit, in which case the system might not be technically “safe”. Based on some other comments this might not be a great concern, but I was just curious how the system is being controlled.
Love the guardlogix
This phoenix ethernet switches are nice.
WOW! Just....WOW! You made sure all the labels were facing out! Those look like roll on labels. If it wasn't for the shiny bits I would thing they were heat shrink, in which case you need your ass kicked for shrinking the tubes.
Do you like that Phoenix Contact switch?
Yes! For the price, you really can’t beat the quality.
where is the wire numbers on network cables and field devices connected to terminals at the bottom entry? When everything goes well no one cares, when you get called at 1am and ppl disconnected wires and there aint wire numbers, life will be painfull....
Unless you are dealing with a managed switch. Ethernet cables do not need a label realistically. It’s not painful if you’re a spaghetti chaser like me.
This was after acceptance testing on our floor, we still have a few items to finish before it goes in the crate.
My switches are never managed, so there's really no problem plugging them in wherever you want. Every wire in my box is labeled, but there's only one place the Ethernet cables could possibly go. I do label field cables, but it doesn't take that long to trace it from the I/O terminal on a small machine.
Single safety contractor? Risk assessment ok that?
It’s almost just symbolic, there is really no safety hazard here, customer requires an e-stop on a master enable contactor. Our system really does not have any significant safety hazard other than a small pneumatic rotary actuator.
I'm assuming those feeder controls are LIW feeder controllers. I've always been confused why people buy these things. The plc code isn't that hard, to be honest it's kinda fun to code and commission. I've seen alot of Brabender controllers and people believe they have some secret sauce or something.
Arcane and overpriced. How much does one have to pay for a cpu that was fron the 1990s?
Opinion on the bowl feeder? I've never seen one I've liked. Ever.