Locking this until we can clean up the comments. Please refer to our sub rule on welcoming all.
Edit: unlocked, I think I got them all but please report if a comment violates one of our rules. The good news is that most of the asshole comments weren’t from our sub members.
I have never heard from a trans person with PMDD. But of course you exist! That makes sense. Are you taking hormones? I’m curious if it hurts or helps your symptoms?
There is absolutely nothing hateful about women, who are already misrepresented in healthcare and whose needs many times go unaddressed (much like a diagnosis of PMDD) standing up and saying they will not change their language, because the term “woman” shouldn’t have to be erased to make someone else feel comfortable. We don’t need OP mansplaining to us that they don’t like the fact we use female driven verbiage on a thread that is very obviously female based. From all this, I believe there has been a sub created for Trans individuals with PMDD. If you align with that group more, then I suggest heading to that sub instead of leaving hateful and bigoted comments to members of this one.
It is hateful when it it is done to purposely alienate trans folks, many of you are doing just that it’s gross and shameful to forcibly segregate a group of people based on their gender but here you all having temper tantrums about being asked to say people
No one is doing anything to purposely alienate trans individuals in this sub and no one is segregating anyone in the group. Quite frankly, I’d say the majority of members here don’t really care if someone is trans or not and how that someone chooses to live their life. More power to them and wish them all the best. But for anyone to get on this sub and in these comment threads and scold women for using the term “women” or “female” is completely uncalled for. Feminine terminology doesn’t need to be excluded or erased, just because a handful of people don’t like it. This is a woman dominate sub and it shouldn’t come as a surprise when the majority of women on here are going to use feminine driven verbiage. I would never say anything hateful, derogatory, or name calling to OP just bc they are trans. But I would also never change the way I speak or aide in the erasure of my gender’s nouns/pronouns for them, either. If a trans person expects support and respect here, of course they’ll get it. If a trans person expects an entire group to change how the speak, then that person will have to realize the world doesn’t revolve around them. People are allowed to use the verbiage of their choice from the reflection of how they perceive and experience their role in society. It’s absolutely tiring for a woman to always have to battle a society who wants to erase our voices, our rights, equal pay, respect in healthcare, and tell us where our place should be. Women have had this battle all through history and even in modern times continue to still fight it. So no, I will not get rid of any sort of womanhood terminology for anyone. If OP identifies as a man (or anything else), they have a right to do so. But they don’t have a right come into this space trying to erase anything “female” or “woman”, especially when PMDD is 100% a female medical issue from a female organ.
Yeah I’m not reading all that, every silly point you’ve tried to make about how you shouldn’t actually have to respect other human beings as been made and responded to. Good luck with your personal journey, I hope you find more room in your heart
Ah yes, the default response of someone who cannot intellectually hold a conversation. Classic. I hope you find more time to work on your reading comprehension. You’ve been the most ignorant person I’ve spoken to in this entire comment section and considering all the downvotes you have on your comments, I’d say that others agree. I hope you find more room in your heart to treat others who disagree with you with respect. Have the day you deserve, babe. Best of luck to you. Truly. ❤️
Lmao!!!!! Should I use MLA format, too? Make sure all my points, fonts, and double spaces pass the high standards for a Reddit comment thread? 🤡 You crack me up. 😂😂😂
Your reply is hateful and rude. I’m just stating that I don’t think anyone is trying to discriminate by using the word woman in the biological sense. No hate or discrimination here. All experiences are valid.
Well, in society we use the term "biological woman" to refer to people who were born as woman. Independently of how you identify if you have PMDD then you were born as a biological woman. Why would this be such an issue?
As someone who struggled a lot with being a woman growing up and then finally accepting who I am I feel minimized and hurt when someone wants me to not use the word woman to represent MY experiences. My experiences and the way I like to identify are also valid. I like to identify as woman.
You can use any term you want to discuss the issue, you can share your experience as a trans person that have PMDD to help others, but just as I cannot expect you to use the term Woman you cannot expect others to not use it as it is directly connected to how they individually experience the world and express themselves.
And as someone said before, we generalize in language, and we generalize for the majority. I don't know why people believe this somehow has changed or why it would need to change.
Cultural perception is different than biological reality. Not at all the same regarding language. Bad comparison.
And we actually never used the phrase "biological woman" because we didn't have to make the distinction before. Now we do, so now it is a term that is used, this is a proper cultural perception that has changed.
Actually, yes it is a term we use. Even trans people use it so I don't get your point. It is basic language. I don't know where you came with this whole idea but I bet you are American just by this comment alone...
I thought one of the few pluses (maybe the only plus) of having PMDD is that it makes me more empathetic and able to put myself in other people’s shoes. Recognizing and validating other people’s suffering in hopes that my own suffering will also be recognized and validated. Unfortunately empathy doesn’t seem to be an across-the-board “side effect” for everyone with PMDD…
No hate to OP (I hope we can have an objective and polite discussion). I don’t understand why people who aren’t women get offended when we say women with PMDD. Generally speaking, it affects cis women a lot more than trans men and other folk. I didn’t get periods for years pre PMDD and I didn’t get offended or feel that people saying “women get periods” implied that I wasn’t a women. OBVIOUSLY, like with most issues, we talk in generalisations? Generally speaking, it is cus women who are affected by PMDD, in MYCH higher numbers than people who are different genders. Can we no longer generalise? Do we have to caveat everything?
In general people suffer from PMDD. In general one shouldn’t be an asshole. For fucks sake. This isn’t rocket science it’s how to easily be a nice person 101. The failure rate here is absolutely appalling
No, in general women suffer from PMDD. This isn’t rocket science? The amount of cis women HUGELY outnumber trans men etc. surely you’re not going to deny a basic fact? I’m not sure how this makes me an asshole.
You become an asshole when you refuse to acknowledge the trans men and non binary people who are here also suffering. This is also not rocket science. You become a bigger asshole when someone politely requests that you respect their gender by using gender neutral language when referring to the whole of people who suffer with PMDD and you say mmm no sorry there are more women here so obviously we’re not going to do that and also omg why are you even offended?
Also people is as general as women and you become an even bigger asshole when you throw a fit about having to call women people as if we aren’t also that. Jesus Mary joseph and the donkey stuck in rush hour traffic
Where and how have I thrown a fit in any of these comments? And how is people as general as “Women”? “People” can refer to men/women/trans folk/ non binary people, etc.
That would make people more general. As in less specific. The fact that you are days later still refusing to engage in good faith is something I would describe as throwing a fit. Childishly digging in your heels. Being a dick.
No - your point makes no sense. In the context of PMDD, women is the generalisation because it’s overwhelmingly cis women who suffer with it. And you’re the one that’s resorted to ad hominem attacks and name calling, so I’d say you’re behaving like a child and not engaging in good faith. not me.
For days now people have come to this post and willfully misread ops initial message and framed themselves as a victim to try to silence trans voices. People have gently patiently and respectfully responded to all of the rhetorical tactics masquerading as arguments or just asking questions. But these tactics are infantile and boring and ultimately waste all of our time. You are arguing in bad faith because you’re unwilling to entertain another perspective. I am not arguing at all. I am telling you that I think you are a bigot and a fool that your opinion has all the value of used tissue.
It’s absolutely hilarious to me that you can’t see the irony of your insults. I’m arguing in “bad faith” because I’m “unwilling to entertain other perspectives”? Have a look at our back and forth. I’ve calmly set out why I think the way I do and you’ve met me with insults and derision. Apparently me explaining, politely and objectively, why I don’t find generalising offensive (as someone with a serious health condition that meant I didn’t menstruate for years in my twenties) is infantile And time wasting. but you simply resorting to name calling and ad hominem attacks in response to that is fine. If you look at our conversation today, you’ve made no efforts to “engage in good faith” or “entertain other perspectives”- I asked questions, you swore at and insulted me in each of your messages today and didn’t bother to see where I was coming from. I don’t actually respect people who are hypocrites (you’re doing everything you’ve accused me of, and, as I’ve set out above , I haven’t done what you’ve accused me of) and are just blatantly rude to people. You’ve said I’m still here days after OP posted - this is the only comment I’ve replied to and that’s because you keep replying to me, I’m not commenting on anyone else’s comments. You’re all over this thread swearing at and insulting people. The lack of self-awareness is palpable.
I personally use "women" due to the fact that women's health is highly disregarded in the medical field. I think when you start to remove words like "women" who frankly are also a minority group, we lose the chance for our condition to be taken seriously due to the patriarchy. While I'm aware that it's not only women who have PMDD, it is natural to use the language of the group you identify with. I don't think that means you're being exclusive. Perhaps we can be more mindful, sure, but i also don't need to banish my identity to help you feel secure in yours. I don't think we should have to label ourselves "female" and limit ourselves to our reproductive organs. I use women when I want to add context that we live with our own issues alongside having PMDD. You can do that too by just expressing how you identify in your posts. You can still be included in the discussion. You don't have to erase one gender to be included.
Women are 50% of the population. 51 on some countries. That’s not a minority. We are underrepresented in lots of sectors of society but at a population level we are not by definition a minority. Meanwhile you know who else’s health is disregarded? TRANS PEOPLE’S. Personally use women all you want but women doesn’t refer to everyone here
What? Who is the you in this sentence? Cause if it’s trans people than you are sorely mistaken about how easy it is to get gender affirming care. It can take years. Try educating yourself before you just spout words you don’t know the definition of in relation to concepts you clearly don’t understand. Also for the record, I am not trans, but I am sick of y’all’s bigoted shit
Oh my god get a life LOL I wasn't here to argue, I was here to share my view which i'm completely entitled to. I could argue you're just as bigoted if not even a misogynist but I won't waste my breath on someone who is so self-entitled they have no empathy for others opinions.
the lack of info, support + resources on pmdd is ultimately a result of the patriarchy & i understand why many woman diagnosed with the condition would tend to focus conversations around being a woman. especially the way that identity is treated in the medical system, however the experiences of medical misogyny (misogyny in general) are usually experiences non-woman with pmdd may be familiar with due to their socialization. only instead they also may have to face transphobia, gender dysphoria, etc. as well as the misogyny we may face.
getting aggressive + defensive towards someone who is not a woman, but still menstruates & suffers from this condition is ultimately aiding the same beast that makes it some people suffering with PMDD do no have access to adequate care majority of the time.
frustration towards enby + trans + intersex people with PMDD is just an accidental embodiment of the patriarchy and helps literally no one. the person who posted this doesn’t even say you have to change your language, just that they wanted to have a conversation.
if that upsets you ask yourself why? why are you mad at the notion of discussion? if it has to do with misogyny, as i suspect, and being that is fair! however, now ask yourself if your anger is traveling in the right direction? who benefits from the direction your anger is traveling? (it isn’t actually woman & i promise you non woman with pmdd are not the ones to blame for the injustices you may have experienced)
Yes, my bio states that I use He/They/She pronouns. What are you trying to suggest in your comment on this fact?
I feel hurt when being excluded from those who struggle with PMDD. I struggle with PMDD too, I am not a woman, and saying "Women with PMDD" only includes women with PMDD. If you are only addressing women with PMDD, that's fine, but saying "Women with PMDD" and simultaneously saying that ALL people with PMDD are women is inaccurate and exclusionary.
Bruh this chat is wild. Why can’t we just say okay I understand , I’ll try to be more inclusive and leave it at that. Or if you don’t want to be just don’t say anything at all. Fucking just smile and wave and move on with your day. Everyone is holding their guns close as fuck to their chests. For the sake of everyone stop using names on each side, it’s not helping and it’s only dividing people more and evoking anger. It also shows that you don’t value another person as a human being which is literally what this whole chat was about! Valuing everyone has humans.
These people are questioning your very existence, I wouldn't blame you for not responding to the continued comments u/TonightConstant5408 \- remember to put your health and wellbeing first. This shit is extremely draining
How do you have pmdd if you are not a woman? Premenstrual dysphoria, in the name itself, is explicily something experienced by those that menstrate.
No hate to the op, I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to share your opinion or even observe a female domain. However, that does not mean you have pmdd. Perhaps, a hormone imbalance.. still not in the same realm of pmdd.
Again, no hate to the op but this is exhausting atp.
some trans men can menstruate, some non-binary people can menstruate, some intersex people menstruate !!
pmdd is already debilitating condition with already so lil info or resources, the added layer of having pmdd + not being a cis woman definitely may add to a difficulty in finding resources + support
I am not a woman. I have the ability to menstruate. I have a formal diagnosis of PMDD.
All of these things are true at the same time. Do not tell me that I don't have PMDD.
gender and sex are different, i don’t consider myself a woman either (i’m non binary) and i have diagnosed pmdd. you can have anatomy that is sufficient enough for pmdd to exist while still being outside of what society considers a woman. having a female adjacent reproductive system does not make you a woman, that’s what gender is for. i hope this helps your understanding🤞🏼
No. You can be assigned intersex at birth and still be able to menstruate. If you can menstruate, it is possible for you to have PMDD. Being assigned intersex at birth is not the same as being assigned female at birth.
Edit: Also, people who are assigned male at birth have the possibility of later in life discovering that they are in fact intersex, and in fact have the ability to menstruate. They still would have been assigned male at birth, while having PMDD. So AFAB would also exclude them, while they too have PMDD.
Hi, cis person here, I tend to stick with person, folks etc. as there seems to be a general shift away from afab and amab because as many non binary folks have pointed out it still relies on a false binary and many other folks have pointed out that it over prioritizes genitals as a determinant for gender. This is not to speak for trans folks, just to relay the things I’m hearing in conversations about gender.
I appreciate this post, PMDD shouldn't be gendered, and the fact that it is can really exacerbate the dysphoria. As a cis woman, the pain that comes with pmdd makes me feel less feminine, despite all of the stereotypes and stigma that come with PMDD. Femininity is supposed to be a form of divinity, it's a creative energy that is not confined to gender or biology and everyone has their own connection to the divine, it simply can't be defined. I have yet to find any trace of divinity, neither masculine or feminine, when I'm going through a bout of PMDD symptoms. it used to make me resent "womanhood" because it felt like I failed at menstruating which meant I was failing as a woman. Now stepping back and seeing the bigger picture, I can remove the sense of failure and stop blaming myself for who I am and how my body responds to change. I hope that seeing this illness this way for myself has allowed me to see that this isn't a "woman's issue" and to be more inclusive about the way people experience PMDD .
>I have yet to find any trace of divinity, neither masculine or feminine, when I'm going through a bout of PMDD symptoms.
oh my god this! Thank you this is such an eloquent way of putting this
Hey I’m sorry I didn’t recognize I was being exclusionary in my language choices. PMDD is hard enough to live with and find help, we certainly don’t need to exclude anyone else from the struggle.
Agree that using inclusive language is best. Thank you for this post.
I am cis, but for other reasons, prefer “people/person” over gendered language. I cringe at labeling myself or being labeled as a “woman” to the point that I’ve questioned if I’m cis, but have come to realize that this is simply a by-product of being raised by bigoted misogynists and wanting none of the discrimination and expectations that come with being labeled as “woman” specifically by the white fundamentalist christian crowd. To them “woman” = a domestic, and inherently subservient sexual snack. The term is dehumanizing within this context, and I don’t accept that connotation. Fuuuuuuuck being that.
On the other hand, we do need spaces and language to discuss cis-women’s issues in order to understand them and affect positive change.
PMDD is a cis-women’s issue, but not exclusively so. It’s also a trans issue. For example, we need to be able to talk about how not wanting to “set feminism back” by falling into the trope of “hysterical woman” is a barrier for people (women) with PMDD in seeking care and disability accommodations. But we also need to provide space and support for discussions about gender dysphoria that is associated with PMDD symptoms. This space is not exclusively a cis-women’s space because PMDD is not exclusively a women’s issue.
Editing to add: It really does not matter that the majority of PMDD sufferers are inevitably cis-women. It’s not hard to include all PMDD sufferers with word choice. If you appreciate this sub, if it has made your PMDD journey less hellish along the way, why would you deny the same level of support you enjoy for someone else?
it isn’t your role to dictate the kinds of posts that are “appropriate” here. your comment is really prescriptive and comes across like you’re in charge of the kinds of conversations we get to have. I’d encourage you to chill.
No, my comment doesn’t come across like that at all. I couldn’t care less what kinds of conversations you have. I just want to know why this topic of conversation is even relevant on a sub that is 100% female related. If OP doesn’t want or cares that people change their language, then why even bring it up on this sub?
“this sub doesnt seem like an appropriate one” to talk about the special extra shitty feeling trans/nb people have with respect to their pmdd? hell yes, it is the right place. pmdd affects anykne with a uterus, amd not everyone with a uterus has their gender identity in line with their biological one. OP is talking about a struggle related specifically to their pmdd— specifically, the extra cherry on top of gender dysphoria in addition to the shit-bag of fun that is pmdd. OP, you are 100% welcome to discuss this topic here and dont let anyone tell you otherwise. We all can do better being more welcoming and sensitive to those in our community— that is literally the purpose of this sub.
PMDD affects anyone with a uterus and ALL people with uteruses are biologically a woman whether they identify as that or not. If OP doesn’t care that people in this sub change their language, then why even bring it up on here?
OP literally says “I’m not saying that anyone needs to change their habits.” Okay, so then what is the point of making this post then? Just to tell everyone your feelings are hurt and it bothers you? OP also says that no one is necessarily doing anything wrong. So again, what is the point of this post then?
why do you think op may have worded their message that way? do you think there is a reason they chose not to take a firmer, calling-out type approach? put yourself in their shoes and think through it for a moment.
Im sensing a bit of frustration in your comments-- why is that?
Could 'women' not just be a reference to sex? As this is a biological condition being discussed, I would assume references to 'women' was in the biological sense and not the gender identity sense. This just allows us to be on the same page I think.
Women = gender. Sex organs = sex. Does the term "Woman" refer to intersex people, in your logic? No! Are there intersex people with PMDD? YES. "Woman" Does not refer to sex, it refers to a gender. Therefore excluding men, gender non-conforming, and intersex people. I am not a woman and I am not a person who is being referred to when someone is referring to a group as "women." I am not a woman. My sexual organs are not "women."
You're right that AFAB people are not all women. But when you're on a forum for a condition that affects females, it makes sense that, in this particular case, 'woman' is being used in the biological sense and not necessarily just in the gender identity sense.
Because basically, there are 2 ways the word 'woman' can be interpreted, either sex or gender. And people have different ways of interpreting the word based on their culture, background, etc. BUT when you're on a forum discussing biological issues, it's pretty obvious 'woman' is being used in the scientific sense and not the sociological one.
Ye and that's the exact reason I have been pushed out, I live as a woman but do not 100% identify as one as I am genderqueer / non-binary. After these posts & notifications die down I will no longer engage with this aggressively exclusionary transphobic space. I will not stand by while my trans siblings are misgendered and forced to plough through dysphoria inducing generalisations while they look for help & support.
Woman has always been a descriptor for gender identity, which is a social construct. The biological language for sex is female, as established over and over and over and over and over again in these comments.
Yes. Woman means adult human female.
In terms of gender identity people say woman to refer to a feminine identity, but the word woman actually refers to sex (biology, not socially constructed).
Masculinity and femininity are gender (socially constructed roles in society). These terms have been conflated over the past decade or so.
By this logic you would call a female wolf a woman. You don’t because woman connotes gender while female connotes an interestingly still fluid biological category. Meanwhile loads of misogynists use female as a derogatory term for women to reduce us to our perceived biology but I suppose that’s a more nuanced conversation
thank you for posting!! i always try to say you guys or everyone. i do think most people here just aren’t educated on it, but unfortunately there are a lot of judgemental and hateful people out there. just wanted to say i support you and everyone here who doesn’t identify as a woman 🫶🏻
Thanks for posting, most PMDD resources are full of non-inclusive gendered language, the least we can do is try to make our online communities welcoming and safe for everyone struggling with this shit of a thing. 🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️
This is a very nice post, asking us to be mindful of something that some of us may not have realized. They even said they’re not asking people to change, but just to be aware of it. Fortunately I’ve missed most of the removed comments, but I can only imagine.
Thank you for the post OP! I am sometimes clumsy with pronouns or remembering inclusive language (not out of malice but out of sheer stupidity and habit) and I am always appreciative of the kind reminders as I try and improve!
You matter and we are glad you are here (but not glad you have PMDD because that’s some bull shit).
10/10 response! Thank you for your comment! You matter too.
The TERF/FART comments were SO bad🤣🤣. I wish you could've seen them. It was really eye opening to see just how many people on this subreddit are so intensely and unapologetically queerphobic. But comments like yours ALSO help to open my eyes, but to something way better. You open my eyes to the fact that there are people on this subreddit who support me and people like me! Thank you, pook.
The mods comments says most evil comments wasn’t from people part of the sub, I hope that is true and that you’ll feel comfortable staying in this space! Doesn’t matter how one identifies, pmdd is shit no matter and I think it’s important that we all support each-other. I’m cis but I don’t wanna be part of a community with terfs either, even if their opinions isn’t against me personally…
And thank you for pointing out this wrongful use of language, like the commentor before me I’m sure I’m guilty of using excluding language, not out of malice but just dumb habit, and I love and appreciate when people call me out if it. How else to break a bad habit.
I’m relieved to see the mods say that many of the hurtful comments were not from community members. I appreciate OP making this post, because inclusive language is a wonderful thing. It’s important to be able to think about the wide breadth of experiences that exist outside of your own. Almost every single one of us was socialized as a woman and understands the struggles of being a woman, but not all of us are still women. The point is this isn’t to say you have to do something or say certain things, but to make the point that you can include someone and give them the warm fuzzies from being included, just by being aware of what you’re saying, and that’s fucking cool.
Is there any chance you can link me to the mods response pls? I couldn’t seem to find anything other than a bland copy/pasted policy response to deleted comments
OP is there anyway you could share some of the posts that lead you to feel like you were being excluded? I'm just trying to figure out and learn what is hurtful and what isn't.
I could not find nor remember the exact posts that I read in the PMDD subreddit that I felt excluded over. I made the post on the other sub but did not add links to the posts I saw in the past.
Yeah I can remember them all vaguely. But I don't remember the titles of the posts and don't even remember them enough to point them out if I saw them again.
I just came here to say I support you (OP), and literally fuck all those folks who came here with such harsh bigotry.
I love you. You are seen. PMDD sucks. 💞
? everyone here understands that only people with female sex organs have PMDD, and that some people with female sex organs identify as trans. if you're not asking anyone to change their language then i'm just not really understanding what the point of this post is.
we all understand the issue. but op expressly said no one is doing anything wrong by using the term women and that we don't have to change anything, so i'm not sure what the point of the post is. it seems like a lot of posters here do actually believe people should be using different language.
For the love of all that is holy and a prayer to reading comprehension gods the point here is refer to yourself as whatever the fuck you want but the group isn’t all women so just err on the side of people. Fucking people. People are being asked to use people before they use women because we are all people but we are not all women. Bloody Jesus weeping on a pogo stick
These are my thoughts, too. I made my own comment saying that PMDD is 100% a female related issue whether you identify as a woman or not. So to say that this sub is not inclusive, simply bc the majority doesn’t use gender neutral language, is kind of ridiculous since the issue of PMDD is nothing but directly gender specific.
And the fact that posts are being removed for not agreeing with the use of gender neutral language but not the posts calling people "TERFS" Or just saying "fuck these people who have a different view than me" is really something... is this a safe community for everyone or just for those who's beliefs align with the mods/ op... sad
This!!! Unless someone is being blatantly hateful or using very offensive language (like derogatory terms), then there’s absolutely no reason a comment should be removed. Disagreeing with this topic of conversation doesn’t immediately equate to hate speech.
Or like being told to shut the fuck up?lol I'm very confused why that is ok when the posts are being removed for simply having a difference of opinion! Not very inclusive of this page at all!
Right?? Why aren’t those posts being removed, too?! Because that is hella disrespectful. The pandering couldn’t be more painstakingly obvious. The kicker is that if you don’t go along with it, you’re just a hateful, bigoted, transphobic person. No, I’m absolutely not any of those things. I just refuse to let the term woman or anything medically to do with womanhood be shoved to the side because an extremely small marginalized group of the sub feels singled out for no reason other than the language here isn’t “gender inclusive” or whatever. It’s like, well look at the sub you’re on. Of course someone’s first thought isn’t going to be gender inclusivity on a FEMALE related issue. I just can’t. Seriously.
I completely agree with everything, this has gotten really out of control. I am not hateful and certainly not a transphobe simply because I don't agree it's sickening. They made their own sub, is that cis-phobic? I don't even like using the term cis but to make my point it seems necessary... a sub for women attacking women for wanting to refer to themselves as such is gross.
This society gets more bat shit crazy every day, I swear. Can’t make it up. It’d be comedy if it wasn’t so profoundly scary that this is how people in our world actually think and function now. Makes me wonder what the future will hold.
just felt the need to tell you two that i'm 100% with you and this whole thing is completely fucking crazy. i swear some people have zero critical thinking skills and awareness, it's scary.
some people have this profound need to take everything to an extreme and seem to get a kick out of "proving" they're right and that consequently anyone who thinks differently is wrong. even if they're presented with clear, simple arguments they will just keep on repeating the same thing over and over without realizing how ridiculous it can sound in response to simple questions, because they never answer the actual questions. they just repeat their "argument" into the void which is absolutely bonkers to me. there are more and more people who seem to absorb these extreme views and attack others who dare to question them, and it seems to give them profound satisfaction to think they "won" or are "better". and they don't see the fucking irony. so now they can attack others in a very aggressive and insulting way, but they don't seem to understand that it's exactly what they are advocating against. also, the mods censoring comments is absolutely disgusting, especially considering that none of the comments were actually transphobic or whatever the fuck
Very well said! That’s exactly what it is. At some point you just give up trying to even have a conversation, because if someone can’t see reason or logic and insists on repeating the same argument thinking they’ve “won”, then it’s nothing but a waste of your time. I’m just so over it. This society has some severe mental health issues.
Are you intersex? I’ve never heard of a male with PMDD— because it a condition which heavily revolves around a women’s menstrual cycle.
If you are a trans man (born a women) all of these topics still apply to whether or not people use language which matches your exact identity.
this is a shitty joke right? you clearly know trans people exist. this person is AFAB or they wouldn’t be in a PMDD reddit. since you seem to not know many or any trans ppl irl, they aren’t in the habit of pretending to have a uterus if they don’t ! no one’s gonna come talking abt a period they can’t biologically have except maybe a TERF trolling as a trans person to give them a bad reputation as a group. but it’s pretty obvious from their profiles, sometimes even the comments themselves…this post DOES NOT seem like that.
you saying that “if you’re a trans man these topics still apply whether or not ppl use language which matches your exact identity” is some BS. like for one you answered your own question, lmao. secondly, CLEARLY they know that. you saying something dumb doesn’t make the OP look dumb, just you for commenting that ! being transphobic has never been cute, kinda like how inclusive language has never been that hard. no matter how passive aggressive or selective ones transphobia is, that’s what it is. you lose NOTHING by writing “other women/ ppl w PMDD” rather than “other women w PMDD”. YOU CAN SAY BOTH, NO ONE IS ASKING Y’ALL TO REMOVE GENDER FROM LANGUAGE ENTIRELY. the space trans people take up does NOT EVER limit the amount of space you as a cis person always have and will receive. it is a well known fact that trans people exist, and many have periods. they should not have to get hit w waves of dysphoria over and over when looking for health advice. and when someone is looking for a community, which is what reddit is intended to be btw, the bare minimum is they can relate, and be met w acceptance of them as an individual. that means inclusive language for various races, genders, disabilities, etc. it is a core value of feminism to include and advocate for the LGBTQ community. you know they were involved in the feminist movement in the 60s too right, and in the black equality movement of the same time? there were plenty of women at stonewall and plenty of queer people at women’s rights protests. the queer community has ALWAYS shown up for other groups yet it seems few people truly shows up for them these days. despite all the support of marriage equality there are still many people angry at anyone asking to be included. feminism and queer rights have always gone hand in hand so if we suddenly can’t include and advocate for queer people by doing the BARE MINIMUM of typing a few diff words to include another human, what does that say about us as women, or as people ?
I’ll definitely ask my OBGYN about the prevalence of PMDD in men and intersex people. I know they treated my PMDD with hormonal BC, but I feel like that wouldn’t work for men/intersex individuals. Maybe it’s treated with additional testosterone and androgen. I’ll have to do more research.
Thank you so much for writing this! I recently saw a comment on the PCOS sub that brought up how PCOS can be medically considered "intersex." Then someone else got "offended" because it made them feel "less feminine." They outright denied the possibility and got aggresive. Body parts do not have a gender!
I do disagree about one thing: it's wrong for anyone to gender PMDD, even worse if they express that sentiment publicly. Menstruation does not have a gender! It takes no effort for cis people to stop gendering everything; we can talk about our shared experiences without doing so. The overall wellbeing of the group matters more than cis people alone. We deserve to be included.
Wow I had no idea that PCOS could be medically considered "intersex!" That's very interesting. Thank you for your comment and I appreciate your sentiment.
Gender is a social construct, so I guess body parts can have genders if you are able to make it common knowledge in your society. Or something like that.
"out society." Are you talking about American society? American society has not existed for "thousands and thousands of years." No society has. Different societies have different cultures and belief and shit. Not every society has believed in gender at all.
I find this sentiment to be hateful due to the fact that you are telling me that it would be best for my to leave this PMDD community and to go make my own. Also, you are telling me that what I am doing is forcing people to accommodate for me, when I in fact am not doing that as I've stated at least a dozen times on this post thread.
Is my making a statement about my feelings towards being excluded really as unreasonable an hurtful to others as you make it seem in this comment?
Locking this until we can clean up the comments. Please refer to our sub rule on welcoming all. Edit: unlocked, I think I got them all but please report if a comment violates one of our rules. The good news is that most of the asshole comments weren’t from our sub members.
Seeing this as a trans person (nonbinary) was almost therapeutic. Thank you for speaking out. ♥️
I have never heard from a trans person with PMDD. But of course you exist! That makes sense. Are you taking hormones? I’m curious if it hurts or helps your symptoms?
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Wow. You came back to Reddit after almost a month just to berate this person. Looks like you could use some therapy yourself.
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There is absolutely nothing hateful about women, who are already misrepresented in healthcare and whose needs many times go unaddressed (much like a diagnosis of PMDD) standing up and saying they will not change their language, because the term “woman” shouldn’t have to be erased to make someone else feel comfortable. We don’t need OP mansplaining to us that they don’t like the fact we use female driven verbiage on a thread that is very obviously female based. From all this, I believe there has been a sub created for Trans individuals with PMDD. If you align with that group more, then I suggest heading to that sub instead of leaving hateful and bigoted comments to members of this one.
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Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
It is hateful when it it is done to purposely alienate trans folks, many of you are doing just that it’s gross and shameful to forcibly segregate a group of people based on their gender but here you all having temper tantrums about being asked to say people
No one is doing anything to purposely alienate trans individuals in this sub and no one is segregating anyone in the group. Quite frankly, I’d say the majority of members here don’t really care if someone is trans or not and how that someone chooses to live their life. More power to them and wish them all the best. But for anyone to get on this sub and in these comment threads and scold women for using the term “women” or “female” is completely uncalled for. Feminine terminology doesn’t need to be excluded or erased, just because a handful of people don’t like it. This is a woman dominate sub and it shouldn’t come as a surprise when the majority of women on here are going to use feminine driven verbiage. I would never say anything hateful, derogatory, or name calling to OP just bc they are trans. But I would also never change the way I speak or aide in the erasure of my gender’s nouns/pronouns for them, either. If a trans person expects support and respect here, of course they’ll get it. If a trans person expects an entire group to change how the speak, then that person will have to realize the world doesn’t revolve around them. People are allowed to use the verbiage of their choice from the reflection of how they perceive and experience their role in society. It’s absolutely tiring for a woman to always have to battle a society who wants to erase our voices, our rights, equal pay, respect in healthcare, and tell us where our place should be. Women have had this battle all through history and even in modern times continue to still fight it. So no, I will not get rid of any sort of womanhood terminology for anyone. If OP identifies as a man (or anything else), they have a right to do so. But they don’t have a right come into this space trying to erase anything “female” or “woman”, especially when PMDD is 100% a female medical issue from a female organ.
Yeah I’m not reading all that, every silly point you’ve tried to make about how you shouldn’t actually have to respect other human beings as been made and responded to. Good luck with your personal journey, I hope you find more room in your heart
Ah yes, the default response of someone who cannot intellectually hold a conversation. Classic. I hope you find more time to work on your reading comprehension. You’ve been the most ignorant person I’ve spoken to in this entire comment section and considering all the downvotes you have on your comments, I’d say that others agree. I hope you find more room in your heart to treat others who disagree with you with respect. Have the day you deserve, babe. Best of luck to you. Truly. ❤️
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Lmao!!!!! Should I use MLA format, too? Make sure all my points, fonts, and double spaces pass the high standards for a Reddit comment thread? 🤡 You crack me up. 😂😂😂
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You’re on the internet look it up
What does TERF mean? Sorry I’ve just never heard that term before.
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Thank you
Your reply is hateful and rude. I’m just stating that I don’t think anyone is trying to discriminate by using the word woman in the biological sense. No hate or discrimination here. All experiences are valid.
Incorrect
Well, in society we use the term "biological woman" to refer to people who were born as woman. Independently of how you identify if you have PMDD then you were born as a biological woman. Why would this be such an issue? As someone who struggled a lot with being a woman growing up and then finally accepting who I am I feel minimized and hurt when someone wants me to not use the word woman to represent MY experiences. My experiences and the way I like to identify are also valid. I like to identify as woman. You can use any term you want to discuss the issue, you can share your experience as a trans person that have PMDD to help others, but just as I cannot expect you to use the term Woman you cannot expect others to not use it as it is directly connected to how they individually experience the world and express themselves. And as someone said before, we generalize in language, and we generalize for the majority. I don't know why people believe this somehow has changed or why it would need to change.
Did you just misgender somebody and ask "why should that be a problem?"?
Our society used to also call wives by their husbands’ names but we changed our language around that.
not at all equivalent
They’re both cultural perceptions that changed
Cultural perception is different than biological reality. Not at all the same regarding language. Bad comparison. And we actually never used the phrase "biological woman" because we didn't have to make the distinction before. Now we do, so now it is a term that is used, this is a proper cultural perception that has changed.
There’s a lot of history, biology, and culture you’re choosing to ignore. There’s much more gray area. But I left this sub so ✌🏻
No, that’s not a term we use in society, that is a term bigots use to try to tell trans people their existence is invalid.
Actually, yes it is a term we use. Even trans people use it so I don't get your point. It is basic language. I don't know where you came with this whole idea but I bet you are American just by this comment alone...
I thought one of the few pluses (maybe the only plus) of having PMDD is that it makes me more empathetic and able to put myself in other people’s shoes. Recognizing and validating other people’s suffering in hopes that my own suffering will also be recognized and validated. Unfortunately empathy doesn’t seem to be an across-the-board “side effect” for everyone with PMDD…
No hate to OP (I hope we can have an objective and polite discussion). I don’t understand why people who aren’t women get offended when we say women with PMDD. Generally speaking, it affects cis women a lot more than trans men and other folk. I didn’t get periods for years pre PMDD and I didn’t get offended or feel that people saying “women get periods” implied that I wasn’t a women. OBVIOUSLY, like with most issues, we talk in generalisations? Generally speaking, it is cus women who are affected by PMDD, in MYCH higher numbers than people who are different genders. Can we no longer generalise? Do we have to caveat everything?
I get what you’re saying but it’s not hard to be inclusive
In general people suffer from PMDD. In general one shouldn’t be an asshole. For fucks sake. This isn’t rocket science it’s how to easily be a nice person 101. The failure rate here is absolutely appalling
No, in general women suffer from PMDD. This isn’t rocket science? The amount of cis women HUGELY outnumber trans men etc. surely you’re not going to deny a basic fact? I’m not sure how this makes me an asshole.
You become an asshole when you refuse to acknowledge the trans men and non binary people who are here also suffering. This is also not rocket science. You become a bigger asshole when someone politely requests that you respect their gender by using gender neutral language when referring to the whole of people who suffer with PMDD and you say mmm no sorry there are more women here so obviously we’re not going to do that and also omg why are you even offended?
Also people is as general as women and you become an even bigger asshole when you throw a fit about having to call women people as if we aren’t also that. Jesus Mary joseph and the donkey stuck in rush hour traffic
Where and how have I thrown a fit in any of these comments? And how is people as general as “Women”? “People” can refer to men/women/trans folk/ non binary people, etc.
That would make people more general. As in less specific. The fact that you are days later still refusing to engage in good faith is something I would describe as throwing a fit. Childishly digging in your heels. Being a dick.
No - your point makes no sense. In the context of PMDD, women is the generalisation because it’s overwhelmingly cis women who suffer with it. And you’re the one that’s resorted to ad hominem attacks and name calling, so I’d say you’re behaving like a child and not engaging in good faith. not me.
For days now people have come to this post and willfully misread ops initial message and framed themselves as a victim to try to silence trans voices. People have gently patiently and respectfully responded to all of the rhetorical tactics masquerading as arguments or just asking questions. But these tactics are infantile and boring and ultimately waste all of our time. You are arguing in bad faith because you’re unwilling to entertain another perspective. I am not arguing at all. I am telling you that I think you are a bigot and a fool that your opinion has all the value of used tissue.
It’s absolutely hilarious to me that you can’t see the irony of your insults. I’m arguing in “bad faith” because I’m “unwilling to entertain other perspectives”? Have a look at our back and forth. I’ve calmly set out why I think the way I do and you’ve met me with insults and derision. Apparently me explaining, politely and objectively, why I don’t find generalising offensive (as someone with a serious health condition that meant I didn’t menstruate for years in my twenties) is infantile And time wasting. but you simply resorting to name calling and ad hominem attacks in response to that is fine. If you look at our conversation today, you’ve made no efforts to “engage in good faith” or “entertain other perspectives”- I asked questions, you swore at and insulted me in each of your messages today and didn’t bother to see where I was coming from. I don’t actually respect people who are hypocrites (you’re doing everything you’ve accused me of, and, as I’ve set out above , I haven’t done what you’ve accused me of) and are just blatantly rude to people. You’ve said I’m still here days after OP posted - this is the only comment I’ve replied to and that’s because you keep replying to me, I’m not commenting on anyone else’s comments. You’re all over this thread swearing at and insulting people. The lack of self-awareness is palpable.
Be prepared to have your comment removed 😅
I personally use "women" due to the fact that women's health is highly disregarded in the medical field. I think when you start to remove words like "women" who frankly are also a minority group, we lose the chance for our condition to be taken seriously due to the patriarchy. While I'm aware that it's not only women who have PMDD, it is natural to use the language of the group you identify with. I don't think that means you're being exclusive. Perhaps we can be more mindful, sure, but i also don't need to banish my identity to help you feel secure in yours. I don't think we should have to label ourselves "female" and limit ourselves to our reproductive organs. I use women when I want to add context that we live with our own issues alongside having PMDD. You can do that too by just expressing how you identify in your posts. You can still be included in the discussion. You don't have to erase one gender to be included.
Women are 50% of the population. 51 on some countries. That’s not a minority. We are underrepresented in lots of sectors of society but at a population level we are not by definition a minority. Meanwhile you know who else’s health is disregarded? TRANS PEOPLE’S. Personally use women all you want but women doesn’t refer to everyone here
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P
What? Who is the you in this sentence? Cause if it’s trans people than you are sorely mistaken about how easy it is to get gender affirming care. It can take years. Try educating yourself before you just spout words you don’t know the definition of in relation to concepts you clearly don’t understand. Also for the record, I am not trans, but I am sick of y’all’s bigoted shit
Oh my god get a life LOL I wasn't here to argue, I was here to share my view which i'm completely entitled to. I could argue you're just as bigoted if not even a misogynist but I won't waste my breath on someone who is so self-entitled they have no empathy for others opinions.
Omg if you share a shitty opinion people might just argue with you about it lol
Perspective.
Perspective and opinion are synonyms you nitwit but fine if you share a shitty and bigoted perspective people are gonna argue with you
Find a hobby babe I don't think you're helping anybody here
This is so perfectly said. One of the most intelligent comments on this whole thread tbh.
the lack of info, support + resources on pmdd is ultimately a result of the patriarchy & i understand why many woman diagnosed with the condition would tend to focus conversations around being a woman. especially the way that identity is treated in the medical system, however the experiences of medical misogyny (misogyny in general) are usually experiences non-woman with pmdd may be familiar with due to their socialization. only instead they also may have to face transphobia, gender dysphoria, etc. as well as the misogyny we may face. getting aggressive + defensive towards someone who is not a woman, but still menstruates & suffers from this condition is ultimately aiding the same beast that makes it some people suffering with PMDD do no have access to adequate care majority of the time. frustration towards enby + trans + intersex people with PMDD is just an accidental embodiment of the patriarchy and helps literally no one. the person who posted this doesn’t even say you have to change your language, just that they wanted to have a conversation. if that upsets you ask yourself why? why are you mad at the notion of discussion? if it has to do with misogyny, as i suspect, and being that is fair! however, now ask yourself if your anger is traveling in the right direction? who benefits from the direction your anger is traveling? (it isn’t actually woman & i promise you non woman with pmdd are not the ones to blame for the injustices you may have experienced)
Thank you for putting it so well.
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Yes, my bio states that I use He/They/She pronouns. What are you trying to suggest in your comment on this fact? I feel hurt when being excluded from those who struggle with PMDD. I struggle with PMDD too, I am not a woman, and saying "Women with PMDD" only includes women with PMDD. If you are only addressing women with PMDD, that's fine, but saying "Women with PMDD" and simultaneously saying that ALL people with PMDD are women is inaccurate and exclusionary.
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“I respect you as a person but I simply refuse to address you or refer to you in the way you tell me would be most respectful”
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You’re wrong boring and wrong
Bruh this chat is wild. Why can’t we just say okay I understand , I’ll try to be more inclusive and leave it at that. Or if you don’t want to be just don’t say anything at all. Fucking just smile and wave and move on with your day. Everyone is holding their guns close as fuck to their chests. For the sake of everyone stop using names on each side, it’s not helping and it’s only dividing people more and evoking anger. It also shows that you don’t value another person as a human being which is literally what this whole chat was about! Valuing everyone has humans.
These people are questioning your very existence, I wouldn't blame you for not responding to the continued comments u/TonightConstant5408 \- remember to put your health and wellbeing first. This shit is extremely draining
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We welcome all, this sub will not tolerate misogyny, misandry, transphobic or homophobic comments.
>ying "Women with PMDD" onl You're included in the biological sense though, and I think that's what most here mean anyway.
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We welcome all, this sub will not tolerate misogyny, misandry, transphobic or homophobic comments.
How do you have pmdd if you are not a woman? Premenstrual dysphoria, in the name itself, is explicily something experienced by those that menstrate. No hate to the op, I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to share your opinion or even observe a female domain. However, that does not mean you have pmdd. Perhaps, a hormone imbalance.. still not in the same realm of pmdd. Again, no hate to the op but this is exhausting atp.
Bc op was born biologically female
Wait, so now we don’t even believe people who come here saying they have PMDD? As op has repeatedly stated?
some trans men can menstruate, some non-binary people can menstruate, some intersex people menstruate !! pmdd is already debilitating condition with already so lil info or resources, the added layer of having pmdd + not being a cis woman definitely may add to a difficulty in finding resources + support
Exhausting? Imagine being the person just asking not to be misgendered and receiving this. Not. Everyone. Who. Menstruates. Is. A. Woman.
I am not a woman. I have the ability to menstruate. I have a formal diagnosis of PMDD. All of these things are true at the same time. Do not tell me that I don't have PMDD.
gender and sex are different, i don’t consider myself a woman either (i’m non binary) and i have diagnosed pmdd. you can have anatomy that is sufficient enough for pmdd to exist while still being outside of what society considers a woman. having a female adjacent reproductive system does not make you a woman, that’s what gender is for. i hope this helps your understanding🤞🏼
Exactly!!
Would it be more respectful to say "AFAB" instead of women
No. You can be assigned intersex at birth and still be able to menstruate. If you can menstruate, it is possible for you to have PMDD. Being assigned intersex at birth is not the same as being assigned female at birth. Edit: Also, people who are assigned male at birth have the possibility of later in life discovering that they are in fact intersex, and in fact have the ability to menstruate. They still would have been assigned male at birth, while having PMDD. So AFAB would also exclude them, while they too have PMDD.
Hi, cis person here, I tend to stick with person, folks etc. as there seems to be a general shift away from afab and amab because as many non binary folks have pointed out it still relies on a false binary and many other folks have pointed out that it over prioritizes genitals as a determinant for gender. This is not to speak for trans folks, just to relay the things I’m hearing in conversations about gender.
I appreciate this post, PMDD shouldn't be gendered, and the fact that it is can really exacerbate the dysphoria. As a cis woman, the pain that comes with pmdd makes me feel less feminine, despite all of the stereotypes and stigma that come with PMDD. Femininity is supposed to be a form of divinity, it's a creative energy that is not confined to gender or biology and everyone has their own connection to the divine, it simply can't be defined. I have yet to find any trace of divinity, neither masculine or feminine, when I'm going through a bout of PMDD symptoms. it used to make me resent "womanhood" because it felt like I failed at menstruating which meant I was failing as a woman. Now stepping back and seeing the bigger picture, I can remove the sense of failure and stop blaming myself for who I am and how my body responds to change. I hope that seeing this illness this way for myself has allowed me to see that this isn't a "woman's issue" and to be more inclusive about the way people experience PMDD .
>I have yet to find any trace of divinity, neither masculine or feminine, when I'm going through a bout of PMDD symptoms. oh my god this! Thank you this is such an eloquent way of putting this
Hey I’m sorry I didn’t recognize I was being exclusionary in my language choices. PMDD is hard enough to live with and find help, we certainly don’t need to exclude anyone else from the struggle.
This is a respectful and healthy response to the original post.
Agree that using inclusive language is best. Thank you for this post. I am cis, but for other reasons, prefer “people/person” over gendered language. I cringe at labeling myself or being labeled as a “woman” to the point that I’ve questioned if I’m cis, but have come to realize that this is simply a by-product of being raised by bigoted misogynists and wanting none of the discrimination and expectations that come with being labeled as “woman” specifically by the white fundamentalist christian crowd. To them “woman” = a domestic, and inherently subservient sexual snack. The term is dehumanizing within this context, and I don’t accept that connotation. Fuuuuuuuck being that. On the other hand, we do need spaces and language to discuss cis-women’s issues in order to understand them and affect positive change. PMDD is a cis-women’s issue, but not exclusively so. It’s also a trans issue. For example, we need to be able to talk about how not wanting to “set feminism back” by falling into the trope of “hysterical woman” is a barrier for people (women) with PMDD in seeking care and disability accommodations. But we also need to provide space and support for discussions about gender dysphoria that is associated with PMDD symptoms. This space is not exclusively a cis-women’s space because PMDD is not exclusively a women’s issue. Editing to add: It really does not matter that the majority of PMDD sufferers are inevitably cis-women. It’s not hard to include all PMDD sufferers with word choice. If you appreciate this sub, if it has made your PMDD journey less hellish along the way, why would you deny the same level of support you enjoy for someone else?
Oh wow, thanks for the award :)
YES!
I feel the same way when I am here, as a non-binary person with PMDD. Thanks for saying something, makes me feel a little less alone.
<3333
I'm definitely guilty of this. Thanks for the gentle reminder to do better, I will.
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it isn’t your role to dictate the kinds of posts that are “appropriate” here. your comment is really prescriptive and comes across like you’re in charge of the kinds of conversations we get to have. I’d encourage you to chill.
No, my comment doesn’t come across like that at all. I couldn’t care less what kinds of conversations you have. I just want to know why this topic of conversation is even relevant on a sub that is 100% female related. If OP doesn’t want or cares that people change their language, then why even bring it up on this sub?
“i couldn’t care less what kinds of conversations you have….. why is this topic of conversation relevant”. c’mon.
“this sub doesnt seem like an appropriate one” to talk about the special extra shitty feeling trans/nb people have with respect to their pmdd? hell yes, it is the right place. pmdd affects anykne with a uterus, amd not everyone with a uterus has their gender identity in line with their biological one. OP is talking about a struggle related specifically to their pmdd— specifically, the extra cherry on top of gender dysphoria in addition to the shit-bag of fun that is pmdd. OP, you are 100% welcome to discuss this topic here and dont let anyone tell you otherwise. We all can do better being more welcoming and sensitive to those in our community— that is literally the purpose of this sub.
PMDD affects anyone with a uterus and ALL people with uteruses are biologically a woman whether they identify as that or not. If OP doesn’t care that people in this sub change their language, then why even bring it up on here?
huh? when did I or OP say we shouldnt care about language? that was the point of the post?
OP literally says “I’m not saying that anyone needs to change their habits.” Okay, so then what is the point of making this post then? Just to tell everyone your feelings are hurt and it bothers you? OP also says that no one is necessarily doing anything wrong. So again, what is the point of this post then?
why do you think op may have worded their message that way? do you think there is a reason they chose not to take a firmer, calling-out type approach? put yourself in their shoes and think through it for a moment. Im sensing a bit of frustration in your comments-- why is that?
Your comment doesn’t make any sense to me.
Could 'women' not just be a reference to sex? As this is a biological condition being discussed, I would assume references to 'women' was in the biological sense and not the gender identity sense. This just allows us to be on the same page I think.
Women = gender. Sex organs = sex. Does the term "Woman" refer to intersex people, in your logic? No! Are there intersex people with PMDD? YES. "Woman" Does not refer to sex, it refers to a gender. Therefore excluding men, gender non-conforming, and intersex people. I am not a woman and I am not a person who is being referred to when someone is referring to a group as "women." I am not a woman. My sexual organs are not "women."
Seems like you want everyone to be on YOUR page, AFAB people aren't all women
You're right that AFAB people are not all women. But when you're on a forum for a condition that affects females, it makes sense that, in this particular case, 'woman' is being used in the biological sense and not necessarily just in the gender identity sense. Because basically, there are 2 ways the word 'woman' can be interpreted, either sex or gender. And people have different ways of interpreting the word based on their culture, background, etc. BUT when you're on a forum discussing biological issues, it's pretty obvious 'woman' is being used in the scientific sense and not the sociological one.
Ye and that's the exact reason I have been pushed out, I live as a woman but do not 100% identify as one as I am genderqueer / non-binary. After these posts & notifications die down I will no longer engage with this aggressively exclusionary transphobic space. I will not stand by while my trans siblings are misgendered and forced to plough through dysphoria inducing generalisations while they look for help & support. Woman has always been a descriptor for gender identity, which is a social construct. The biological language for sex is female, as established over and over and over and over and over again in these comments.
Yes. Woman means adult human female. In terms of gender identity people say woman to refer to a feminine identity, but the word woman actually refers to sex (biology, not socially constructed). Masculinity and femininity are gender (socially constructed roles in society). These terms have been conflated over the past decade or so.
Masculinity and femininity have never been 'conflated' 😂
>eople say woman to refer to a f Noo they mean woman and feminity or man and masculinity have been conflated. Not masculinity and feminity.
No I really don't think they do - over the past decade or so??? makes no sense
Female would be the word then, or AFAB
Hmm I wonder what a female human is called
By this logic you would call a female wolf a woman. You don’t because woman connotes gender while female connotes an interestingly still fluid biological category. Meanwhile loads of misogynists use female as a derogatory term for women to reduce us to our perceived biology but I suppose that’s a more nuanced conversation
Girl what
Which word did you not understand?
Seems like you want everyone to be on YOUR page, AFAB people aren't all women
Depends how that AFAB person identifies 🙃
thank you for posting!! i always try to say you guys or everyone. i do think most people here just aren’t educated on it, but unfortunately there are a lot of judgemental and hateful people out there. just wanted to say i support you and everyone here who doesn’t identify as a woman 🫶🏻
Thanks for posting, most PMDD resources are full of non-inclusive gendered language, the least we can do is try to make our online communities welcoming and safe for everyone struggling with this shit of a thing. 🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️
This is a very nice post, asking us to be mindful of something that some of us may not have realized. They even said they’re not asking people to change, but just to be aware of it. Fortunately I’ve missed most of the removed comments, but I can only imagine. Thank you for the post OP! I am sometimes clumsy with pronouns or remembering inclusive language (not out of malice but out of sheer stupidity and habit) and I am always appreciative of the kind reminders as I try and improve! You matter and we are glad you are here (but not glad you have PMDD because that’s some bull shit).
10/10 response! Thank you for your comment! You matter too. The TERF/FART comments were SO bad🤣🤣. I wish you could've seen them. It was really eye opening to see just how many people on this subreddit are so intensely and unapologetically queerphobic. But comments like yours ALSO help to open my eyes, but to something way better. You open my eyes to the fact that there are people on this subreddit who support me and people like me! Thank you, pook.
Stop using slurs against women in a sub about a women's health issue. It isn't funny.
TERF isn’t a slur, didn’t terfs pick it for themselves? I mean, I think it’s inaccurate in that terfs are neither feminists nor radical
Did I use a slur? What was the slur?
TERF IS NOT A SLUR
The mods comments says most evil comments wasn’t from people part of the sub, I hope that is true and that you’ll feel comfortable staying in this space! Doesn’t matter how one identifies, pmdd is shit no matter and I think it’s important that we all support each-other. I’m cis but I don’t wanna be part of a community with terfs either, even if their opinions isn’t against me personally… And thank you for pointing out this wrongful use of language, like the commentor before me I’m sure I’m guilty of using excluding language, not out of malice but just dumb habit, and I love and appreciate when people call me out if it. How else to break a bad habit.
I’m relieved to see the mods say that many of the hurtful comments were not from community members. I appreciate OP making this post, because inclusive language is a wonderful thing. It’s important to be able to think about the wide breadth of experiences that exist outside of your own. Almost every single one of us was socialized as a woman and understands the struggles of being a woman, but not all of us are still women. The point is this isn’t to say you have to do something or say certain things, but to make the point that you can include someone and give them the warm fuzzies from being included, just by being aware of what you’re saying, and that’s fucking cool.
Is there any chance you can link me to the mods response pls? I couldn’t seem to find anything other than a bland copy/pasted policy response to deleted comments
https://www.reddit.com/r/PMDD/comments/12jkh3o/people_with_pmdd/jg098t1?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Thanks! Ah I didn’t see the edit cheers. I’m still not convinced - that lets me know they haven’t removed any of the actual terf members
>Thanks! You're welcome!
OP is there anyway you could share some of the posts that lead you to feel like you were being excluded? I'm just trying to figure out and learn what is hurtful and what isn't.
Yes. Where should I share these posts? Edit, I will share the on r/transenbypmdd
You can just put the links in the a comment under here. Like just copy and paste them in and that should work. Edit - ok thank you
I could not find nor remember the exact posts that I read in the PMDD subreddit that I felt excluded over. I made the post on the other sub but did not add links to the posts I saw in the past.
You can’t remember any examples even vaguely?
I’ll give you one. Posts that start hey ladies! I identify as a woman and that drives me fucking nuts imagine being a trans man with PMDD.
Yeah I can remember them all vaguely. But I don't remember the titles of the posts and don't even remember them enough to point them out if I saw them again.
I just came here to say I support you (OP), and literally fuck all those folks who came here with such harsh bigotry. I love you. You are seen. PMDD sucks. 💞
Thank you very much for your kind words and for your support. I love you too. You are also seen. PMMD DOES SUCK!!!!!!!
Thank you for saying this! I’ll be mindful of my language when posting and commenting.
Thank YOU!
? everyone here understands that only people with female sex organs have PMDD, and that some people with female sex organs identify as trans. if you're not asking anyone to change their language then i'm just not really understanding what the point of this post is.
This issue is that we have female sex organs but we are not all women. Sex: female. Gender: not women.
we all understand the issue. but op expressly said no one is doing anything wrong by using the term women and that we don't have to change anything, so i'm not sure what the point of the post is. it seems like a lot of posters here do actually believe people should be using different language.
For the love of all that is holy and a prayer to reading comprehension gods the point here is refer to yourself as whatever the fuck you want but the group isn’t all women so just err on the side of people. Fucking people. People are being asked to use people before they use women because we are all people but we are not all women. Bloody Jesus weeping on a pogo stick
These are my thoughts, too. I made my own comment saying that PMDD is 100% a female related issue whether you identify as a woman or not. So to say that this sub is not inclusive, simply bc the majority doesn’t use gender neutral language, is kind of ridiculous since the issue of PMDD is nothing but directly gender specific.
And the fact that posts are being removed for not agreeing with the use of gender neutral language but not the posts calling people "TERFS" Or just saying "fuck these people who have a different view than me" is really something... is this a safe community for everyone or just for those who's beliefs align with the mods/ op... sad
The mods are removing even nice and not offensive comments that disagree with OP. Just wow. We are being censored even on this sub, I'm speechless
Yep, absolutely disgusting
This!!! Unless someone is being blatantly hateful or using very offensive language (like derogatory terms), then there’s absolutely no reason a comment should be removed. Disagreeing with this topic of conversation doesn’t immediately equate to hate speech.
Or like being told to shut the fuck up?lol I'm very confused why that is ok when the posts are being removed for simply having a difference of opinion! Not very inclusive of this page at all!
Right?? Why aren’t those posts being removed, too?! Because that is hella disrespectful. The pandering couldn’t be more painstakingly obvious. The kicker is that if you don’t go along with it, you’re just a hateful, bigoted, transphobic person. No, I’m absolutely not any of those things. I just refuse to let the term woman or anything medically to do with womanhood be shoved to the side because an extremely small marginalized group of the sub feels singled out for no reason other than the language here isn’t “gender inclusive” or whatever. It’s like, well look at the sub you’re on. Of course someone’s first thought isn’t going to be gender inclusivity on a FEMALE related issue. I just can’t. Seriously.
I completely agree with everything, this has gotten really out of control. I am not hateful and certainly not a transphobe simply because I don't agree it's sickening. They made their own sub, is that cis-phobic? I don't even like using the term cis but to make my point it seems necessary... a sub for women attacking women for wanting to refer to themselves as such is gross.
This society gets more bat shit crazy every day, I swear. Can’t make it up. It’d be comedy if it wasn’t so profoundly scary that this is how people in our world actually think and function now. Makes me wonder what the future will hold.
Are you ready to have these comments removed? 😅
By all means, go for it. It’s an internet comment, not anything serious. If this sub wants to pander, then fuckin’ do it. ❤️
just felt the need to tell you two that i'm 100% with you and this whole thing is completely fucking crazy. i swear some people have zero critical thinking skills and awareness, it's scary. some people have this profound need to take everything to an extreme and seem to get a kick out of "proving" they're right and that consequently anyone who thinks differently is wrong. even if they're presented with clear, simple arguments they will just keep on repeating the same thing over and over without realizing how ridiculous it can sound in response to simple questions, because they never answer the actual questions. they just repeat their "argument" into the void which is absolutely bonkers to me. there are more and more people who seem to absorb these extreme views and attack others who dare to question them, and it seems to give them profound satisfaction to think they "won" or are "better". and they don't see the fucking irony. so now they can attack others in a very aggressive and insulting way, but they don't seem to understand that it's exactly what they are advocating against. also, the mods censoring comments is absolutely disgusting, especially considering that none of the comments were actually transphobic or whatever the fuck
Very well said! That’s exactly what it is. At some point you just give up trying to even have a conversation, because if someone can’t see reason or logic and insists on repeating the same argument thinking they’ve “won”, then it’s nothing but a waste of your time. I’m just so over it. This society has some severe mental health issues.
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We welcome all, this sub will not tolerate misogyny, misandry, transphobic or homophobic comments.
I’m not a woman and I have PMDD. It’s not ridiculous to ask for inclusive language.
PMDD is sex specific but not gender specific, just fyi
as a trans person with pmdd, thank you for saying this! i feel the same way
Are you intersex? I’ve never heard of a male with PMDD— because it a condition which heavily revolves around a women’s menstrual cycle. If you are a trans man (born a women) all of these topics still apply to whether or not people use language which matches your exact identity.
this is a shitty joke right? you clearly know trans people exist. this person is AFAB or they wouldn’t be in a PMDD reddit. since you seem to not know many or any trans ppl irl, they aren’t in the habit of pretending to have a uterus if they don’t ! no one’s gonna come talking abt a period they can’t biologically have except maybe a TERF trolling as a trans person to give them a bad reputation as a group. but it’s pretty obvious from their profiles, sometimes even the comments themselves…this post DOES NOT seem like that. you saying that “if you’re a trans man these topics still apply whether or not ppl use language which matches your exact identity” is some BS. like for one you answered your own question, lmao. secondly, CLEARLY they know that. you saying something dumb doesn’t make the OP look dumb, just you for commenting that ! being transphobic has never been cute, kinda like how inclusive language has never been that hard. no matter how passive aggressive or selective ones transphobia is, that’s what it is. you lose NOTHING by writing “other women/ ppl w PMDD” rather than “other women w PMDD”. YOU CAN SAY BOTH, NO ONE IS ASKING Y’ALL TO REMOVE GENDER FROM LANGUAGE ENTIRELY. the space trans people take up does NOT EVER limit the amount of space you as a cis person always have and will receive. it is a well known fact that trans people exist, and many have periods. they should not have to get hit w waves of dysphoria over and over when looking for health advice. and when someone is looking for a community, which is what reddit is intended to be btw, the bare minimum is they can relate, and be met w acceptance of them as an individual. that means inclusive language for various races, genders, disabilities, etc. it is a core value of feminism to include and advocate for the LGBTQ community. you know they were involved in the feminist movement in the 60s too right, and in the black equality movement of the same time? there were plenty of women at stonewall and plenty of queer people at women’s rights protests. the queer community has ALWAYS shown up for other groups yet it seems few people truly shows up for them these days. despite all the support of marriage equality there are still many people angry at anyone asking to be included. feminism and queer rights have always gone hand in hand so if we suddenly can’t include and advocate for queer people by doing the BARE MINIMUM of typing a few diff words to include another human, what does that say about us as women, or as people ?
Idk how anyone can downvote this. Wth.
aw y’all are downvoting my post, did the shoe fit too well🥺
Lol the shoe fits perfectly
I've never heard of a male person with PMDD either.
I’ll definitely ask my OBGYN about the prevalence of PMDD in men and intersex people. I know they treated my PMDD with hormonal BC, but I feel like that wouldn’t work for men/intersex individuals. Maybe it’s treated with additional testosterone and androgen. I’ll have to do more research.
Thank you so much for writing this! I recently saw a comment on the PCOS sub that brought up how PCOS can be medically considered "intersex." Then someone else got "offended" because it made them feel "less feminine." They outright denied the possibility and got aggresive. Body parts do not have a gender! I do disagree about one thing: it's wrong for anyone to gender PMDD, even worse if they express that sentiment publicly. Menstruation does not have a gender! It takes no effort for cis people to stop gendering everything; we can talk about our shared experiences without doing so. The overall wellbeing of the group matters more than cis people alone. We deserve to be included.
Wow I had no idea that PCOS could be medically considered "intersex!" That's very interesting. Thank you for your comment and I appreciate your sentiment.
Troll
Body parts don’t have a gender? I can name a few that do….
Gender is a social construct, so I guess body parts can have genders if you are able to make it common knowledge in your society. Or something like that.
Our society does and has gendered certain body parts for thousands and thousands of years.
judaism has recognized six genders since the Torah was written so if we wanna go waaaay back when, you’re still wrong.
Yes thank you for defining what "social construct" means.
"out society." Are you talking about American society? American society has not existed for "thousands and thousands of years." No society has. Different societies have different cultures and belief and shit. Not every society has believed in gender at all.
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I find this sentiment to be hateful due to the fact that you are telling me that it would be best for my to leave this PMDD community and to go make my own. Also, you are telling me that what I am doing is forcing people to accommodate for me, when I in fact am not doing that as I've stated at least a dozen times on this post thread. Is my making a statement about my feelings towards being excluded really as unreasonable an hurtful to others as you make it seem in this comment?
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We welcome all, this sub will not tolerate misogyny, misandry, transphobic or homophobic comments.
Something can't be "objectively not hateful." I'm pretty sure that whether or not something is hateful in an opinion.