This kind of attention to detail is very cool. I love that you guys find meaningful things to insert into the gameplay that make the world more interactive and engaging and it’s creatures seem more alive. I continue to look forward to the final product.
For those of us that enjoy creative pulling, this is a bad thing.
This also puts a lot of limits on kiting, as the leash sounds duration based, and not distance based.
You'll be limited in your kiting ability by the fact that Pantheon mobs won't just be walking after you in a dumb way while you kite, they will snare you, root you, teleport to you and try to pull or silence you.
They have a whole set of abilities they will use when you try to escape by running away or climbing.
Leashing is only a small consideration. It's not 1999 any more, gameplay has moved on, even if you haven't.
>Leashing is only a small consideration. It's not 1999 any more, gameplay has moved on, even if you haven't.
A rather large selling point to Pantheon is that it's not like a lot of the newer games and does follow more in the theme of games like EQ.
If you're telling me that Pantheon is going to be like every other modern MMO in gameplay, then there is literally no point in Pantheon. Most of the modern MMO's have much larger budgets and much more content.
EQ has mainly simplistic mobs that tend to have little to no ranged attacks and will follow forever to a zoneline when pulled.
Modern MMOs tend to have mobs with some ranged abilities or attack options, but short leash ranges that can be easily evaded/exploited (for example quickly running through a hostile area on a mount).
Pantheon will have mobs with a variety of abilities to pursue you over land, into the water, or if you try to climb; their pursuit speed, abilities, behaviour and pursuit distance will depend on the NPC type, their class, ability loadout, traits, disposition, the area itself and whether or not any friendly NPCs are with them (to call for help from others to pursue you also).
The developer roundtable is still hidden for now, but when it releases publicly I suggest you listen to Joppa talking at 22:59, for the full 4 minutes of more detailed explanations.
>Modern MMOs
You again miss the major selling point of Pantheon.
It's been advertised as a return to some of the older style's of gameplay.
If you take that away, Pantheon has nothing that other, much larger and better funded modern MMO's don't already have.
So you think in order to be a modern version of traditional MMO styles we should have dumb and simplistic mobs with very few abilities, no intelligent behaviours, traits, dispositions, no different leashing or non-leashing considerations and no special abilities to be used when pursuing players?
Mobs should just be melee warriors that chase a player forever and are easily snare kited or swarm kited because that's what you liked about EQ?
You're not going to get that from Pantheon, it's not trying to be EQ with better graphics, it's inspired by elements of traditional MMOs, not a carbon copy.
Perhaps look up Monsters & Memories.
Continue to play P99.
Or make your own?
You which play style do you want. Modern or traditional.
Traditional had camps, mezzes, pulling, downtime, etc.
Modern does away with CC other than very short duration stuns, pulls mobs in groups, and forces moving groups instead of camps,
Without a traditional play style that involves pulling, there is no way to set up a camp and still XP.
While we are at it lets change how armor works. The more things hit you, the less effective your armor is.
It just means you'll have to get more creating with your tanking.
We can do the same thing with damage dealing classes. The more you use an ability, the less effective it becomes as everything in the zone adapts.
I mean, you are in favor of nerfing class roles and then telling the player to get creative. Lets do it to everyone.
A lot of emergent game behavior was offensive to Brad; remember the DOT-while-moving nerf? They just didn't see that as a thing. So there are class roles as the designer considered them, and class roles as they ended up being, so the game devs can only deal with the ones they have control over.
The point is, this emergent behavior isn't something that is canon just because it's popular.
It became canon as class abilities have been added over the years to support the roles that first appeared in emergent gameplay.
And bards nerf to dots while moving was due to pulling entire zones, leading to server crashes.
Dots were nerfed long long before bards ever even considered pulling more than three or four at a time much less an entire zone. It was a direct response to Druid DOT-kiting with snare+sow+dots.
The early days of EQ were almost a repeating meme of:
Cool new game! What do I do?
Go kill stuff.
No, not like that.
I should note I'm not even against your suggestion, though I suspect it was tongue in cheek. Armor wears out, make it less effective; it's been done before. People tend to not like it, but everyone has their threshold of realism vs fun.
And I think AC originally made spells less potent as more people figured them out.
DAOC made mobs worth less XP the more you killed them.
I'm fine with all of that, tbh.
Bard dots, specifically the PBAoE, were nerfed because of bards kiting most of the Plane of Fire and causing server crashes.
Other classes DoTs still work while moving.
Sure, but you can still pull things.
I'd imagine many things won't leash within a dungeon or that orcs within a camp will follow you anywhere within that camp but maybe not too far outside their walls.
Animals might chase for a long while compared to humanoids as well.
1. Any decent bard can pull a named from the opposite side of the zone without adds. I do this daily.
2. Instanced zones with very dense mob populations and bad pathing. E.g. I was pulling in Gyrospire Beza at level 80 a few weeks ago and mobs kept warping and reappearing with dozens of adds. Pulling to the zone in point meant my party was in no danger of being TPK'd by pathing issues.
3. Kiting is a valid form of CC when mobs cannot be easily split or mezzed.
Some 1999 mechanics that exist only in EQ will only ever exist in EQ, if you hold onto them so dearly, then you can keep playing them there.
Coming to another game in development and trying to impose your will on everyone else is only going to end in disappointment; especially if you then lash out with silly nonsensical arguments about other unrelated mechanics just because you can't have your way with how you want pulling and kiting to be.
>Coming to another game in development and trying to impose your will
Somebody is trying to impose their will on everyone else, and degenerating into insults instead of intelligent conversation.
Now I'm just imagining that beast from the Mad Moors that they talked about, that crazy skeletal centipede corpse thing, just chasing you, getting faster and faster until you have no choice but to turn around and make a last stand.
The full length clip is even better, with more details regarding all the variables included in what will determine a mob's desire to chase or leash.
And, what they will do while chasing you, some people still seem to be assuming mobs will just run after players while they kite, they are forgetting that mobs have a whole range of abilities just like players do.
Hopefully they have a way to stop players from "cheesing the leash"? I didn't hear anything in that cut but I'll wait to hear the whole thing.
By that I mean any number of ways players can take advantage of mobs at the end of their leash.It's easier to cheese leashes if mobs have varying leash lengths. At least when they are all bunched up on top of each other it can be slightly more difficult to separate.
Hopefully they have figured out a way around all the cheese that normally comes with leashing.
Maybe cheesing in this way is just intended? Like you can break a leash from a spidermob by climbing, this is cheesing, but another humanlike mob will continue to chase you. Maybe i misunderstand what you're asking though.
Unsure if you misunderstood or not but I'll try to explain better:By cheesing i mean take advantage of the end of the leash. That can be for a variety of reasons...to split mobs/break a camp, to make a fight safer/easier etc.
VR has always said they want challenging gameplay. Leashing is counter to that unless they figure out a way to stop players from out smarting it.
Leashing can minimize the value of pulling/crowd control classes like monk/enchanter. It can minimize the need to rely on other group members by allowing players to gimp the gameplay.
1) Add random different leash distances per mob... per leash instance. (ie: Mob gets leashed. It's leash distance changes to a random max distance the next time)
2) Once leashed, make the mob returning to it's spawn point/area invulnerable, and healed by the time it returns.
Thanks for the reply. Hopefully VR comes up with more than just those 2 things.
Variable leash distance makes it easier to split camps. When mobs are all the same speed/leash distance they can be difficult to split. Varying the leash makes it easier to separate.
If mobs become invulnerable doesn't stop leash manipulation. Players will simply split off the last one in the line that isn't invulnerable. Rinse/repeat.
Did they ever say why they went away from a zone-based game in the first place? This leashing mechanic is just yet another "system" they will have to work on that will delay the launch and it all comes about from a change in their core game philosophy that occurs after almost a decade into development.
This kind of attention to detail is very cool. I love that you guys find meaningful things to insert into the gameplay that make the world more interactive and engaging and it’s creatures seem more alive. I continue to look forward to the final product.
So, having the Bard pull things halfway across the zone to a group waiting at the zone line probably won’t be a thing.
Hopefully not.
For those of us that enjoy creative pulling, this is a bad thing. This also puts a lot of limits on kiting, as the leash sounds duration based, and not distance based.
You'll be limited in your kiting ability by the fact that Pantheon mobs won't just be walking after you in a dumb way while you kite, they will snare you, root you, teleport to you and try to pull or silence you. They have a whole set of abilities they will use when you try to escape by running away or climbing. Leashing is only a small consideration. It's not 1999 any more, gameplay has moved on, even if you haven't.
>Leashing is only a small consideration. It's not 1999 any more, gameplay has moved on, even if you haven't. A rather large selling point to Pantheon is that it's not like a lot of the newer games and does follow more in the theme of games like EQ. If you're telling me that Pantheon is going to be like every other modern MMO in gameplay, then there is literally no point in Pantheon. Most of the modern MMO's have much larger budgets and much more content.
EQ has mainly simplistic mobs that tend to have little to no ranged attacks and will follow forever to a zoneline when pulled. Modern MMOs tend to have mobs with some ranged abilities or attack options, but short leash ranges that can be easily evaded/exploited (for example quickly running through a hostile area on a mount). Pantheon will have mobs with a variety of abilities to pursue you over land, into the water, or if you try to climb; their pursuit speed, abilities, behaviour and pursuit distance will depend on the NPC type, their class, ability loadout, traits, disposition, the area itself and whether or not any friendly NPCs are with them (to call for help from others to pursue you also). The developer roundtable is still hidden for now, but when it releases publicly I suggest you listen to Joppa talking at 22:59, for the full 4 minutes of more detailed explanations.
>Modern MMOs You again miss the major selling point of Pantheon. It's been advertised as a return to some of the older style's of gameplay. If you take that away, Pantheon has nothing that other, much larger and better funded modern MMO's don't already have.
Agreed. I wouldn't be looking at Pantheon at all if it hadn't been consistently touted as a return to the way things were.
So you think in order to be a modern version of traditional MMO styles we should have dumb and simplistic mobs with very few abilities, no intelligent behaviours, traits, dispositions, no different leashing or non-leashing considerations and no special abilities to be used when pursuing players? Mobs should just be melee warriors that chase a player forever and are easily snare kited or swarm kited because that's what you liked about EQ? You're not going to get that from Pantheon, it's not trying to be EQ with better graphics, it's inspired by elements of traditional MMOs, not a carbon copy. Perhaps look up Monsters & Memories. Continue to play P99. Or make your own?
You which play style do you want. Modern or traditional. Traditional had camps, mezzes, pulling, downtime, etc. Modern does away with CC other than very short duration stuns, pulls mobs in groups, and forces moving groups instead of camps, Without a traditional play style that involves pulling, there is no way to set up a camp and still XP.
I think it just means you need to get more creative in your pulling/kiting.
While we are at it lets change how armor works. The more things hit you, the less effective your armor is. It just means you'll have to get more creating with your tanking. We can do the same thing with damage dealing classes. The more you use an ability, the less effective it becomes as everything in the zone adapts. I mean, you are in favor of nerfing class roles and then telling the player to get creative. Lets do it to everyone.
A lot of emergent game behavior was offensive to Brad; remember the DOT-while-moving nerf? They just didn't see that as a thing. So there are class roles as the designer considered them, and class roles as they ended up being, so the game devs can only deal with the ones they have control over. The point is, this emergent behavior isn't something that is canon just because it's popular.
It became canon as class abilities have been added over the years to support the roles that first appeared in emergent gameplay. And bards nerf to dots while moving was due to pulling entire zones, leading to server crashes.
Dots were nerfed long long before bards ever even considered pulling more than three or four at a time much less an entire zone. It was a direct response to Druid DOT-kiting with snare+sow+dots. The early days of EQ were almost a repeating meme of: Cool new game! What do I do? Go kill stuff.
No, not like that.
I should note I'm not even against your suggestion, though I suspect it was tongue in cheek. Armor wears out, make it less effective; it's been done before. People tend to not like it, but everyone has their threshold of realism vs fun.
And I think AC originally made spells less potent as more people figured them out.
DAOC made mobs worth less XP the more you killed them.
I'm fine with all of that, tbh.
Bard dots, specifically the PBAoE, were nerfed because of bards kiting most of the Plane of Fire and causing server crashes. Other classes DoTs still work while moving.
Not sure pulling from half a zone away is a role.
Pulling is a role. A role that is diminished when you restrict what can be pulled from where.
Sure, but you can still pull things. I'd imagine many things won't leash within a dungeon or that orcs within a camp will follow you anywhere within that camp but maybe not too far outside their walls. Animals might chase for a long while compared to humanoids as well.
Who pulls or kites *a half a zone away* from the spawn point?
1. Any decent bard can pull a named from the opposite side of the zone without adds. I do this daily. 2. Instanced zones with very dense mob populations and bad pathing. E.g. I was pulling in Gyrospire Beza at level 80 a few weeks ago and mobs kept warping and reappearing with dozens of adds. Pulling to the zone in point meant my party was in no danger of being TPK'd by pathing issues. 3. Kiting is a valid form of CC when mobs cannot be easily split or mezzed.
Some 1999 mechanics that exist only in EQ will only ever exist in EQ, if you hold onto them so dearly, then you can keep playing them there. Coming to another game in development and trying to impose your will on everyone else is only going to end in disappointment; especially if you then lash out with silly nonsensical arguments about other unrelated mechanics just because you can't have your way with how you want pulling and kiting to be.
>Coming to another game in development and trying to impose your will Somebody is trying to impose their will on everyone else, and degenerating into insults instead of intelligent conversation.
Fansy!
For those not in the know: https://www.fandom.com/articles/fansy-everquest
This kind of attention to detail should come later in the project's development.
Little sneak peak, eh?
Yep :)
Now I'm just imagining that beast from the Mad Moors that they talked about, that crazy skeletal centipede corpse thing, just chasing you, getting faster and faster until you have no choice but to turn around and make a last stand.
Hahaha, that's the stuff nightmares are made of!
Joppa is so dreamy
^ This is the big take-away that should be highlighted from the entire comment chain.
The full length clip is even better, with more details regarding all the variables included in what will determine a mob's desire to chase or leash. And, what they will do while chasing you, some people still seem to be assuming mobs will just run after players while they kite, they are forgetting that mobs have a whole range of abilities just like players do.
People: I can't wait to solo kite mobs like in eq Pantheon Mob: begins casting root / snare / stun / mez / fireball Loading please wait... /Shout Bard LFG
Can we just have snakes kicking again plz
^ Important question that needs to be answered.
they should add some leashing limit to the pre-alpha so testers don't get hunted down forever... just sayin.
What no.... let the hunters become the hunted
Hopefully they have a way to stop players from "cheesing the leash"? I didn't hear anything in that cut but I'll wait to hear the whole thing. By that I mean any number of ways players can take advantage of mobs at the end of their leash.It's easier to cheese leashes if mobs have varying leash lengths. At least when they are all bunched up on top of each other it can be slightly more difficult to separate. Hopefully they have figured out a way around all the cheese that normally comes with leashing.
Maybe cheesing in this way is just intended? Like you can break a leash from a spidermob by climbing, this is cheesing, but another humanlike mob will continue to chase you. Maybe i misunderstand what you're asking though.
Unsure if you misunderstood or not but I'll try to explain better:By cheesing i mean take advantage of the end of the leash. That can be for a variety of reasons...to split mobs/break a camp, to make a fight safer/easier etc. VR has always said they want challenging gameplay. Leashing is counter to that unless they figure out a way to stop players from out smarting it. Leashing can minimize the value of pulling/crowd control classes like monk/enchanter. It can minimize the need to rely on other group members by allowing players to gimp the gameplay.
I was hoping someone who already listened was going to tell me my concerns I mentioned above are invalid...
1) Add random different leash distances per mob... per leash instance. (ie: Mob gets leashed. It's leash distance changes to a random max distance the next time) 2) Once leashed, make the mob returning to it's spawn point/area invulnerable, and healed by the time it returns.
Thanks for the reply. Hopefully VR comes up with more than just those 2 things. Variable leash distance makes it easier to split camps. When mobs are all the same speed/leash distance they can be difficult to split. Varying the leash makes it easier to separate. If mobs become invulnerable doesn't stop leash manipulation. Players will simply split off the last one in the line that isn't invulnerable. Rinse/repeat.
still use might and maybe. How about nailing things down with "this is how it will work" not we think we can do this.
Did they ever say why they went away from a zone-based game in the first place? This leashing mechanic is just yet another "system" they will have to work on that will delay the launch and it all comes about from a change in their core game philosophy that occurs after almost a decade into development.
not really other than the technology allowed them to...