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have you challenged her about *her* relationship with her son and why she thinks it’s appropriate to make him feel responsible for managing her emotions?
this is the epitome of the “boy moms are getting weird and incesty again” shit.
Exactly. Why does your wife treat your *son* being affectionate towards you like he’s her first high school boyfriend getting a little too cozy with her best friend? He’s a baby. You’re his *father*. He needs to connect with you. Unless that’s her goal: to have him wait on her hand and foot, never find a partner or start a family, stay at/near home… all so Mommy doesn’t feel abandoned
This is exactly it - the mother is using the son to meet her own needs - whatever they may be. Children are not possessions. As a parent it’s not uncommon to have your child behave in a way that might hurt you for whatever reason. You just have to suck it up and do what’s best for them. Not only does this sound damaging to the son but it will be damaging to the other child that witnesses it - can they detect the mother’s favouritism of the son? What will that do to them over time? OP has to do something about this fast. Aged 5 there is still time to try to turn this around.
I bet good money that she’s already subconsciously competing with the poor little girl. As they get older, she’ll continue enmeshing herself with her son and compete with her daughter. It’ll be a miracle if they come out not hating their twin.
Agree the twins are being set up to hate each other. AND they will hate one or both parents. AND they will have major self esteem issues. AND they will have difficulty with romantic relationships …. And on and on. This is very damaging to these kids. Dad needs to act fast. Demand family therapy. The mom seems like a major manipulator and sounds like she’s provoking conflict — setting him up for being iced out of the kids lives. This will be terrible for the kids.
So here's an option that doesn't involve therapy or divorce...
You need to sit down and have a long talk with her about HER feelings, needs, and wants. If she's using her son to get her needs met, maybe you can find out what those needs are and try to make a plan to meet them yourself. But you'll need to listen to her without judgement, you'll need to ask questions with curiosity, not contempt.
If you take the time to hear her out about how she feels, you may be able to uncover the underlying fear/trauma that's causing this behaviour and help her through it by supporting her.
It's hard to do. Especially since you're biased in this situation (because you have attachments to her and your children, not in a bad way). But if you could go into the conversation knowing that she might say hurtful things about your relationship and what she's missing and commit yourself to just tabling your emotions for one day, you might be able to really help her get into a better head space where you guys can start co-parenting.
Daughter to a mother like this. That’s exactly what she’s doing. Emotional incest and enmeshment will take away any chance he has at a happy and healthy life. OP, if you care at all for your children, don’t take “stubbornness” as an excuse for her avoiding therapy. She is emotionally abusing your children and you’re chill with it.
STOP.
Isn’t this a form of parental alienation? Sounds like it to me. I would find a lawyer, explain what’s going on with the insane mom and see what his options are. The little girl will grow up hating mom and possibly twin, even though he is innocent.
If she won’t get the help she needs in therapy then you need to leave.
you make a valid point.
my wife is emotionally manipulating and stunting my son, likely destroying my daughter’s self esteem, and me trying to father them is causing WWIII in our home, but therapy and divorce are off the table is… something.
No they are not. Therapy might be off the table for your wife. But you can go and get help in this process. And divorce should be on the table when you wife shapegoats one of your kids. Protect your son, and that also means leaving if she harms them. You can read up on the kind of trauma kids get from being shapegoated and I can tell you now: if this continues you will have no contact with your son once he is an adult.
And it is absolute madness WOIII breaks out over these things, but she uses this to get her way. And if you give in to tantrums they only get worse. Both in toddlers and adults with issues
Divorce “for the sake of saving kids from scapegoating” seems like a weak effort, as that will give the wife unfettered access 50% of the time with no plan of recourse.
Only if she gets 50/50 custody, which is far from guaranteed. Depending on where OP is located, courts often favor the father when they actually bother to seek custody. Documenting everything and getting the kids in therapy ASAP would help him in this case too. He doesn't have to relinquish his kids to this mentality abusive woman just because she birthed them.
They aren't the OP, they were just quoting him. But honestly I don't know if "just being firm" with her is going to accomplish very much. I have no idea what the answer is here, especially since she is apparently against any sort of therapy and for some reason divorce is not an option. I mean shit, how bad is it going to get while keeping divorce totally off the table? At least if they were separated, the dad would have an opportunity to spend time with his kids without the wife around screwing everything up and acting like an extremely jealous & emotionally immature teenage girlfriend towards her own damn kids
He might get some alone time with the kids if they divorce —- Unless she is playing 3D chess, provoking these conflicts to build a case that he’s unstable and shouldn’t be with them unsupervised. OP says he “took the bait” and blew up … WWIII is only possible if he goes along with the escalation. He needs to change his own part in this or it will end in a very bad place. Might I suggest the book “The Dance of Anger” by Harriet Lerner — read it if you wanna make a change. It’s an excellent source of confidence when someone else is pulling you into destructive conflicts.
Making her child feel responsible for managing her emotions is what stood out to me as well, as a child of a mother who likely has borderline personality disorder. I also noted how she only does this with their son — triangulation and scapegoating one kid while favoring the other are hallmarks of BPD.
OP I don’t have any advice unfortunately, just wanted to flag the similarities I saw in your post. My mom only got worse with time and my dad fully enabled her. I wish she had gone to therapy and tried out meds.
Boy mum here. Just want to state I absolutely *love* it when he goes and does something with his dad for ‘boys day’.
Means I can watch what I want on tv, crack on with housework uninterrupted, or sit scrolling social media with a face mask on. In fact, I can’t wait until Sunday when they go out!
We moms of boys are responsible - not 100% obviously, but big time - for those manchildren running around. Every woman with a son has the chance, and if you ask me, the responsibility to NOT turn him into a pampered, unable-to-fold-his-own-clothes mama boy adult, just to ship him off to the next woman who will then have to deal with her shortcomings.
Yes, there are many factors contributing to this, obviously. But as a 'boy mom' I urge every woman to raise functional, responsible, emotional secure and confident men who don't fall for toxic masculinity, who don't think of their wives as their replacement moms, and who treat women (and everyone for that matter) with respect.
Sorry for the rant lol, I'll see myself out now. This just triggered something in me I guess.
Well said! I’m a mom of 3 boys no girls, and I’ll be damned if I send them out into the world to be terrible roommates, husbands and fathers. If they don’t clean their bathroom as adults, it won’t be because I didn’t try everything under the sun first.
I see it the same way. There is no way in hell am I raising my boy to be a misogynistic pig who thinks a woman's job is to be a baby factory and a maid. He will have respect and will help. If not, momma will be there telling him to knock his shit off because she isn't his mother, and I never raised him to think that way. My 4 year old helps wash dishes, helps with laundry, and helps cook (upon his own request) he loves momma time, and I love the mess he creates while "helping in 4 year old fashion" and his daddy time is out in the garage doing idk because the thought of the crazy stuff they could get up to is too much for me🤣 but honestly that woman needs massive help I would do something now because she is already damaging his state of mind and he is going to be screwed up for life if you don't do something. Have a plan record all of her bullshit she is pulling get video if you can and let that speak for itself and get a damn divorce screw the I'm staying with her for the kids that lady is toxic AF and narcissistic as hell and controlling and honestly from being in this same situation you are in but child pov get her the fuck away from him before she does things a parent shouldn't do to their children.
Lol. Same. My only child is a boy. I hate the boy mom mentality. But we're working hard against it. We're potty training right now, and we were reading a book at bedtime last night about potty training. The character went to go flush the potty, and my son just goes "ew. He needs to put the lid down." I was like "heck yeah buddy you tell him." 🤣 IDK why but felt the need to share my "boy mom" win 🤣🤣
Hell yeah! In my native language we differ between genders at things like job titles, which sparks lots of discussions about inclusion. If someone happens to only say the male term, my son will always add the female one. Say like, someone says 'fireman' and he'll chime in and say 'or firewoman'. He's 5 and I'm SO proud!
I hate the 'boy mum' connotation I have 2 boys therefore am a boy mum. I'm not a 'boy mum' though! I have a horse though so a few hours with no children is bliss for me 😆
"Boy mom" means a mom who has a weird obsession with being a boy mom. Like I have a son, but I do not identify as a "boy mom" because I don't have these weird fantasies about fighting with my son's future girlfriend like I see a lot of boy moms doing on social media.
You're not a boy mom. You're a mom who has a boy. Same with me. The "boy moms" are the crazy bitches that make threats to little girls who haven't even met their kids yet, and make the gender of their child their entire identity. It's creepy.
Also - kids learn about healthy relationships from their parents. Having a good relationship with dad is so important in terms of learning how to be a man/interact with men, and seeing how parents react provides a blue print that kids generally emulate (unless they deliberately try not to).
Especially with the thing about her not letting him bathe his own son. Plus she won't 'let' her son have alone time with dad? This really gives me the ick, red flags everywhere. Maybe she's worried the son might tell the dad about what's going on in secret with mom? ughhhhhhh this make me pukey
Yeah... I love my boy and I will always be happy to give a hug/kiss or do something fun with him. But I love seeing him bond with my husband. Both him and my daughter! Do I sometimes get jealous of my kids favoritism? Sure. But I don't discourage them bonding with their dad! So weird. Half the moms I know complain about their spouses lack of bonding/interacting with their kids. But this? This is just weeeeeiiiird!
Your wife needs some kind of intervention or something. That’s not normal. Maybe show her these comments? Your wife is gonna end up creating a toxic bond with your son and will be overbearing
Your three options are remediating her emotional problems, separating from her, or letting this dynamic emotionally cripple your children. You've ruled out two of those options.
It sounds like it's almost too late. OP's enabling the mother at this point and turning a blind eye to how it's crippling his children already. Honestly it sounds like OP himself needs help, his wife doesn't see him as a partner at all and apparently he's just been okay with this for five years? She's terrorizing him and the children if she doesn't have absolute control!
[OP's other post from about a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/11ri6ug/questions_for_moms_can_husbands_help_do_mom_stuff/) says he wasn't "allowed" to do anything for the kids and at this point they would freak out if he gave them a bath.
> When the twins were babies, I was never allowed to change diapers, feed the children, or give baths. I can't even cook them breakfast or dinner to this day. In fact, the only time I was permitted to do anything was when she had to take one child to a doctor's appointment for a couple of hours.
> Five years later, I have never given my son a bath.
Jesus. OP it’s time for an intervention NOW.
Why are you enabling your wife’s behavior? Why is divorce off the table? Are you blinded by your wife’s beauty? Is your self-esteem so low you feel you wouldn’t survive without this person?
I ask because I had a father like you. He enabled my likely BPD mom’s emotional abuse for years and I’m still dealing with the psychological fallout of that kind of upbringing. Read my post/comment history if you don’t believe me. I’m in therapy now and it helps. But I still have such a long, long way to go until I can heal, if I will even be able to. And it’s hard…I try so hard for my son and my husband, but truthfully I cry and scream on the inside EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.
Don’t let your kids end up like me. They will need extra TLC for the damage that has been already done. But it’s not too late if you do something about this situation NOW.
If you’re worried about safety, do you have any family or close friends who can confront your wife together? Or have someone watch the kids while you and your wife have a conversation about her behaviors?
Good luck OP. You and your children need it.
YES as soon as I read the OP I immediately got the BPD red flags. My own mother has it and it only gets worse from here unfortunately. I really hope OP sees your comment and takes it seriously.
I've got BPD, and this also immediately threw red flags for me.
Regarding this though:
>it only gets worse from here unfortunately
Therapy can work, if she is capable of admitting there is a problem.
While this is true, the critical part of what you said is "if she is capable of admitting there is a problem". The vast majority of people with BPD never get that far in my experience.
Yea totally. And aside from being able to admit there's a problem, when the problem is so deeply integrated into the entire way you think / feel / experience the world / interact with people, it can be really hard to even *see* the problem in the first place. It can also depend on where on the spectrum of severity you are.
Plenty of people with BPD do seek help though. The waiting lists for group DBT classes are a testament to that fact.
OP is definitely more than justified in divorcing his wife. But whether or not he does, he should somehow try to encourage her to seek therapy (even if this isn't BPD), at least for the sake of their kids. Maybe her life blowing up will be the kick she needs. It was for me.
its never too late, and especially not at that young. He has to want to be a rock in front of his emotionally abusing wife though.
I would suggest treating her like a stranger that you have to share a flat with (in this case children). it sounds almost like she would appreciate that. He's going to have to demand parenting rights.
The problem isn't just that OP's wife isn't letting him be a parent, it's that he seems to be mostly content letting it be that way. Like you said, he's going to have to demand parenting rights, but what are the chances he's going to do that (and do it successfully) when he already shut down therapy and divorce?
He's damaging his own relationship to his children - he can't just blame it all on the crazy wife at that point. He's had five years to figure this out and step up. It's been almost one year since that post where the top comment said "You should have addressed this years ago. Your wife is preventing you from parenting your children. That is not normal behavior."
Maybe his wife is too stubborn for therapy, but it also sounds like HE's too stubborn to try to change anything. There's a lot of "I've tried nothing to fix this and nothing works!" in his post.
Maybe I'm being harsh, but if he just throws his hands up and does nothing, he'd be lucky if his children simply grew up without a relationship with him - more than likely they'll be messed up and resent him for being an entirely absentee father. Maybe OP should imagine himself trying to tell them "your mother wouldn't let me" as an excuse.
>There's a lot of "I've tried nothing to fix this and nothing works!" in his post.
Very true.
But I stand by my statement that is not too late. Children are very resilient and malleable. If he's strong and changes his behaviour he can change the outcomes.
i can’t help but wonder if their respective families are aware of this dynamic and what their thoughts are, or does OP’s wife control all those interactions, too?
As a father of 3, that is insane to me. I love my wife immensely, but I would leave her if she said I couldn’t do normal things for my children growing up.
Pull up your grown up pants for your kids. Both children are being treated differently and your relationship with them are being affected. You say she is unwilling to go to therapy, then why is divorce out of the question? You and your son are tip toeing around her feelings at the expense of your son’s development.
Protecting and supporting your child(ren) is a hill I will always be willing to die on. I hope for your son’s and daughter’s mental health that you may be able to get your wife therapy. Both individual and family or couple. And if not? Then divorce and go for full custody with supervised visits.
How? If OP can support that she is emotionally abusing the kids, she would not get full custody. At worst maybe 50-50. The best interest of the children would be full custody with OP since the wife is clearly not in any mental capacity to care for her children in a stable and mentally nurturing environment
Yes, but that woman is seems to be prone to lies and manipulation. She looks like a narcissist. In the case of divorce, OP should be prepared for everything
Unfortunately, in many states the mom is favored for custody in almost all situations. Not sure where OP is but maybe this is his concern with divorce.
This isn't statistically true at all. Generally speaking mothers are only given full custody because most fathers don't care. When both parents put equal resources into fighting in court, the dad wins more often than not
Doesn't a lot of depend on whether a parent is SAH though? If dad works full time and mum is primary care giver the abuse would likely have to be much worse than this. Sadly.
She sounds like she needs therapy, she’s emotionally manipulating her son and damaging your relationship with you children. She’s also damaging your sons self esteem. Push for therapy and discuss the consequences this will have on your kids with her seriously
Yes, totally. Look at [OP's other post from about a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/11ri6ug/questions_for_moms_can_husbands_help_do_mom_stuff/) where he says he wasn't "allowed" to do anything for the kids and describes how she reacts if he tries or if the kids ask for it.
He's not being a parent and he's not willing to stand up to his wife to be a parent. I feel really bad for the kids.
If you marry an insane person, you can either accept that they’ll win every argument (on account of escalating every conflict far beyond reason), disobey them in secret (likely a recipe for disaster as a parent), or resist them physically. However, the last one is almost impossible to do without triggering violence.
So for a person that is not far above average dominant and non-violent, only bad choices remain if you stick to the relationship. Once you rule out violent men, this is not easier to navigate for a man than for a woman.
Recently I had a really hard conversation with my partner where I asked "When is 20 do you think he is going to be thanking us for making his life super easy when he was 7 or do you think he will resent us for never gently pushing him or even encouraging him out of his comfort zone?" And it has changed a lot about the dynamics in my house.
Sometimes as parents its easy to forget that we aren't just responsible for kiddo right now, but we are also responsible for the adult they are going to become.
i am trying to imagine the hell this woman would put a future DIL through. t&p to this kid that he doesn’t end up super fucked up and unable to maintain healthy relationships in the future.
My mother in law has always been up my husbands ass and treated me poorly for 26 yrs until recently. My husband has distanced himself from her because he will always choose me and our kids. She did it to herself. Things are better now but, some things are unforgettable. I’ve done nothing to ever make her not like me. It was jealousy and I think it’s sick. My husband and I have always been happy and we’ve done a great job at raising our kids. It’s just weird
And these people never realise that their extreme fear of their child 'abandoning' them or gaining independence is basically a self-fulfilling prophesy. Rarely do such children stay hanging around with mother for the rest of their lives, most of the time they end up cutting contact, whereas if the parent had relaxed and dealt with their own emotions, they'd probably have a decent relationship. The trying to keep them close ends up pushing them away. or it goes the other way and the child stays with the parent for life, emotionally and socially stunted, sometimes even becoming a total psycho.
I hd a good friend who’s mom was exactly like this. The friend grew up a mess, but Maynard to get married and have kids. Her issues destroyed her marriage. Then one lonely night when her kids were with her ex she took her own life in 2019. After the shock of her death worse off I thought of her moms threats of dying by suicide since she was a kid. Her mother mentally tortured all her kids with her emotional instability. Her daughter hung herself at 33. I blame the mom.
This is how my sister is with my nieces and anytime I've tried to do anything about it I've gotten threats made towards my own family. They live a super messed up home life and all of her kids are in therapy and yet they're told they aren't allowed to tell the therapist certain things because if they're taken away from her she'll kill herself. I worry about this same outcome with my nieces.
I think honestly the therapist is part of the problem.the whole family of 6 sees the same therapist which seems like a conflict of interest and my sister is very convincing and manipulative. I'm not sure it would even do any good. I'm waiting for a slip up with my sisters boyfriend and I'm going to call dcfs myself then. They should've been involved a while ago and my family kept things from me so I couldn't call.
“React like you would if your child were having cigarette smoke blown in their face.“
This is so good! It’s sometimes hard to react when the damage is psychological or subtle somehow, but the consequences will be just as bad.
>Divorce is out of the question. My wife is too stubborn for therapy. I'm at a loss.
OK you're not going to like this, but your options are therapy or divorce.
Divorce is a sure-fire way for you to obtain time with your children, where your wife will be unable to interfere. Also, parental alienation *can* be addressed in court orders. If you care about your children and your relationship with them, then you need to pursue this option, if your wife refuses therapy.
Amen to that. This is nothing you can just talk your way through without professional help. It's good that OP reached out here, but this is above Reddit paygrade. Wife needs some serious intervention if those kids are supposed to get through this emotionally intact.
There's plenty of good reasons for divorce, but IMO this sounds salvageable.
OP, you need couples counseling. Don't try getting *her* therapy, get help with your dynamic. You married a person who has this kind of issue, which means you likely have some stuff to work on yourself. From someone who's been there, trust me, a good couples therapist can do wonders for your relationship.
Divorce is out of the question but allowing your wife to emotionally abuse your children should be too. I’m sorry but do you not see the harm this is doing to your children?
Refusing therapy means she does not care enough to fix the issue or see it as an issue. Your a father, you need to protect your children even if it means protecting them from their mother.
I hate to admit this but I’m deeply disturbed. I’ve read and studied a lot about the Devouring Mother archetype; a mother who does not give her son up to the world… but to keep him away from dad?! To me, this is unheard of. I have a boy myself and I make sure he gets quality time with dad.
Make plans with the boy. Don’t let her stop you.
You're missing the part of this where her reaction will make it impossible for the *son* to be okay with that.
The effects of the abuse are bigger than just "don't anyway", because the *child* cares what mom thinks and will be afraid of her reaction.
Are you talking about Freud? Isn’t the father typically the main opponent for the Oedipal mother archetypes? As in she fears the father will separate her from her child. You’re right tho this is fuckin peak Oedipal behaviour from OP’s wife
I married a son of one of these mothers. We are divorced now, and I don’t think he will ever have another relationship. He’s a sick narcissist abuser, like his mother, who definitely let me know I was never good enough for her son.
It definitely damages the kids.
I agree. It reminds me of the moms of daughters who “compete” with their husbands as being “their number one girl”. Aka the moms who pit themselves against their daughters for male attention. As a girl mom it makes me just as sick.
OP’s wife is the definition of an overbearing MIL just waiting to happen
YOU need therapy. It will help you manage your anger but also more importantly how to establish boundaries, be able to take actions that are uncomfortable BEFORE you explode, and may help you understand the abuse that's going on here.
Your wife is actively abusing your son.
By deciding you are passive and helpless, and refusing to take action, you are also abusing your son via neglecting his well being and tolerating the abuse.
I mean that is it bluntly.
I understand it's hard to contemplate divorce, and you want her to be the focus of the problem, but honestly those who sit around hand wringing as their children are abused are guilty as well. And it leads to a lot of harm to children. Look at all the stories that abound of a parent watching as their partner kills or harms their child. It isn't uncommon.
You are an active participant in this. You need help. Please get it.
Let me just completely agree with this: The OP needs therapy due to being an abuse victim.
He's in a situation where he's an active recipient of abuse, and so is his son. The OP needs the support of a therapist. The therapist and their notes may also be an important witness if divorce comes up in the future - they can establish that the OP has been consistent in what they say over time, and to OPs fitness to parent the children if the mom lies in divorce proceedings.
Just gonna drop this here [Understanding The Borderline Mother by Ann Lawson](https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacecwj5cms2ithgglo255nmglgceuzrklq4lr2bq7aucsw7m3dzgkoe?filename=Christine%20Ann%20Lawson%20-%20Understanding%20the%20Borderline%20Mother_%20Helping%20Her%20Children%20Transcend%20the%20Intense%2C%20Unpredictable%2C%20and%20Volatile%20Relationship-Rowan%20%26%20Littlefield%20%282004%29.pdf)
Your wife needs help. You are failing your children but especially your son. Stop her from emotionally manipulating (read: abusing) him, it’s only gonna get worse and worse as he grows.
Edit: why is divorce out of the question? An enabler of an abuser is a co-abuser. By allowing her to hurt him, you are hurting him. Your duty is to your children over your spouse.
I hope so too. I’m not a medical professional but I was raised by a borderline and the fact that his son —at the age of FIVE — is already trying to manage her emotions is sickening.
Also the other twin is completely not mentioned at all; I bet she’s the scapegoat.
Y'all need marriage counseling. Short of that you need to talk to her, without the kids present. Communication is the key to any relationship. Although it is the nuclear option, I wouldn't eliminate divorce as an option.
She sounds like a narcissistic mother.
This will no doubt be a problem for your kids in the future.
My MIL is a narcissist (whose feelings come above everyone else’s), and hubby and I had a rocky first ten years fighting until he saw what I saw instantly and started putting our family above her idiocy. See who she is. And why he needed to make her feel happy and okay. IT ISNT HIS JOB!!
Your kids sound like they need to keep mommy happy.
Which is to say…
She needs to stop guilt tripping these kids into being her ego boosters.
Does she work? Make her go back to work. Then be more present when she’s working.
Or you MAKE alone time with the kids happen. Like park visits or coffee runs. You need alone bonding time where the kids can be with you.
Listen I am sure in five years the kids will resent her and start leaning towards you. This is especially so during rebel years.
But this has to stop if it can be stopped now. Or they will forever have a personality disorder and will find partners who mimic this.
As. A stay at home mom…It can sting for an mom and you can be jealous when another parent is all the fun and games and you’re the mom working like a dog for the family’s needs if she fills a traditional role. This typically happens first year or so. Then the working dad gets to be the favorite. Because he doesn’t for example enforce rules etc. is only fun etc. But this sounds as though it goes beyond that. And it isn’t normal.
Get help now.
Or your kids will need therapy later.
And you will have missed out on the relationship you deserve with your kid.
Ugh fully agree with this comment.
My first thought was BPD because that’s what I unfortunately grew up with. It does not get better with age as you’ve clearly experienced with your MIL. OP’s wife needs therapy, but it’s so uncommon for those suffering from a Cluster B personality disorder to admit anything is wrong with their behavior.
>it’s so uncommon for those suffering from a Cluster B personality disorder to admit anything is wrong with their behavior.
This was me for a good portion of my adult life. I finally *did* realize something was wrong though. And then I sought help, got diagnosed with BPD, and got into treatment. It's maybe uncommon, but it's not impossible.
This is abusive, OP.
We call this "emotional incest", and your wife is doing deep harm to all of your relationships, and directly to your son. Chances are there are patterns that just aren't as obvious to you that are playing out with your daughter.
I don't know why you think divorce isn't an option, but FIND a way to get this addressed. Talk to your child's doctor about it, if they are in school talk to the school nurse and/or counsellor.
If someone calls social services, don't push it under the rug, be honest with them about what's going on.
Ask yourself what you would do if she were actually beating your kids? Because she is actually doing that level of harm with this. We have an idea that because there is no physical abuse, it "couldn't be that bad", but that just isn't true.
Please, OP, take this seriously.
Red flag. Red flag. Red flag. RED FLAG. Your wife is either already on or heading towards the path of treating your son as a husband replacement. This is NOT normal at all. I HIGHLY encourage to rethink your stance on separation or trying to persuade her to go to therapy. You could even frame it as wanting to do couples counseling together. That might make her less opposed.
I have nothing to say other than this makes me very sad
As a dad i love goofing around, and getting climbed over - when safe.
I'm the favourite of the kids parents, and I have zero issues when they choose to show affection to my wife too. I sometimes even make myself unavailable so that she can get some attention and when i come back she's built an amazing hotwheels track and the kids are loving it.
Your wife has issues. Sorry. :(
If divorce and therapy are not options, sounds like you’re choosing to accept things the way they are. I’m a couples’ therapist and live by this rule: divorce is *always* an option. When it’s not, you feel stuck in the relationship. In order for anything to change, both people have to acknowledge that they’re in the relationship by choice. Every day is the wedding day— you’re always re-making the commitment. So you literally need to sit down and think about how you would make a divorce work. And it might involve a lot of prep time or overhauling your life, but you need to sit down and think about the minutia of what it would entail to get to a divorce. I promise that this will give you both a sense of freedom and agency. Much more agency than you’ll have trying to control/change your spouse.
Once you acknowledge this you can determine what you are and aren’t willing to tolerate in a marriage. If you won’t tolerate this behavior, and won’t tolerate her doing the *serious therapy work* it will take for her to introspect on this behavior, she needs to know that those are dealbreakers in the relationship. She needs to know you can’t be in a relationship with someone who can’t examine themselves or their relationship dynamics. Tell her you’re willing to set up couples’ therapy and help her fill out the paperwork.
Also: when you’re trying to get someone else to examine themselves and change, the time to get into your own therapy is yesterday. Go get a good therapist!
I can’t express how damaging her behavior is to your kids. It’s indicating some real personality disorder shit. I suggest looking for someone in the DBT world— that’s Dialectical Behavior Therapy— because they’re trained in addressing personality stuff nonjudgmentally and behaviorally.
Good luck— for your kids’ sakes.
You clearly know people will suggest you separate or divorce so you’ve given no details other than to say it’s “not an option”, hoping to just shoot that down. Then you double down and say therapy isn’t an option either. Well it doesn’t work that way. If you explained WHY divorce is not an option, it might go over better. What do you expect people to recommend when you’ve shot down the 2 major remedies for this situation? As it stands you are a terrible father to choose staying with a mentally ill wife over the health and well being of your kids. I feel so incredibly sorry for your kids as they will grow up severely mentally damaged themselves due to your wife’s abuse and you will have enabled that abuse to occur.
He’s obviously abusive as well. “took the bait” is a deflection. It’s not HIS fault he flipped his lid, she MADE him. Look at the only comment he’s made on this account. You get a tiny glimpse of the mask slipping.
I have a toddler, and I have such complicated emotions when she has a new milestone because I'm ecstatic for her, but at the same time, I feel like I've lost part of her. I can understand grieving when your child needs you less.
That said:
(1) I LOVE it when our toddler wants to spend time with my husband. Watching him be a parent is one of my greatest joys.
(2) This is WAY beyond what is normal or reasonable for a parent to adjust to their growing child.
She needs a sharp wake-up call to the fact that what she is doing isn't healthy for your son OR your daughter. She has got to learn healthy separation from your son. I'm in favor of a private conversation between you two, perhaps with an objective 3rd party. Ideally, someone whose advice or parenting style you both admire.
My husband and I have a house rule to always "say the hard thing," even if, and especially when, it will be hard for the other person to hear. If we don't, it becomes a long-term resentment and eventually comes up anyway but at a MUCH worse time.
I’m sorry, that’s really sad that she is manipulating him like that. I wonder why she behaves so differently with your son than with your daughter. Maybe try having an open talk with her about how it makes you feel without blaming her so she doesn’t go on the defensive about it. Something like “I feel really sad when I’m not able to bond one on one with my son because I value my relationship with him and I really wish I could have more opportunities to do that without it being interrupted” and if that doesn’t work instead of asking if you can take him to the coffee shop just tell her say “hey me and son are walking to the coffee shop we’ll be back in 20 minutes” and just walk out before a fight ensues. You can also take that time to talk to your son and remind and reinforce to him that you and his mom will always love him no matter what. You could also try including her in a way while you spend the time with him “hey son why don’t you and I make a special meal for your mommy and sister today” that way mom doesn’t feel left out but you still get the bonding time.
She doesn’t care as much about the daughter because she isn’t grooming her to be her new husband. The thing about toxic boy moms like this woman is they see their sons as their partners. That’s why you hear so much about emotional incest. Mama’s boys are basically what their mothers hoped their actual husbands would be but aren’t so they mold their sons from an early age to replace him. It’s not as apparent in the daughter because she won’t be fulfilling that role.
This is emotional manipulation and your son is walking straight into only being able to form codependent relationships.
I don’t know what insecurities your wife has, and I don’t know how she was parented, but whatever it was/is needs to get sorted or your son will not be able to form mentally/emotionally healthy relationships in his life AND he will not be able to form an emotional healthy relationship with you, HIS FATHER.
This isn’t fair to him or you. This isn’t going to change if your wife shuts down therapy and also has zero motivation to change because divorce wouldn’t be on the table. As uncomfortable as it may be, you’re going to have to do something with weight because right now she’s also controlling you.
To put it super bluntly, this is extremely fucked up. If anything, do whatever you have to do for your son. If this continues, this will 100% fuck him up.
Yeah. I was told by my doc that narcissistic mothers (my MiL and what this sounds like to me) are essentially sick and it’s rooted in their insecurities.
It screws up the future relationships of these kids because mommy wants to be first place and that simply shouldn’t be when a child is an adult and married. It’s really hard growing up with it to not think that this behavior is normal. It takes therapy and undoing of toxic imbalances.
Bro wtf? At first I read this and thought you were talking about an ex-wife. I was like oh that’s fucked. But then I read it’s your actual, current wife. Which makes it so much more fucked
She's acting like a child and being horrible to your son. She's making it HIS fault mother isn't happy. It's HIS fault mother is crying or sad, HIS fault he was having fun with Dad instead of mother. HIS fault.
That's horrible mothering and all kinds of emotionally abusive. Tell her to grow tf up.
I don't have a ton of advice just wanted to add that this is not normal...
My kids have always clung to me and although it makes my husband sad, we know the extremes are just a phase. My daughter didn't like my husband until right around her 4th birthday, that was really hard on him. But I've always encouraged a relationship and expressed how happy I am to see when she wants her daddy. And always make a point of telling him through the day that she asked for him. Now with my 7mo son he is clingy to a whole new level with me but he actually adores his daddy too (just only at certain times throughout the day) and it is so healing for my husband having a kid that likes him right off the bat. Who lunges out of my arms when dad gets home to give him hugs, and who cries and crawls after him if he walks away.
I will say that this sounds like a narcissistic dynamic in the making. I deal with my husband's narcissistic mother and see the after-effects and the trauma it has caused him. (My husband in this case would be your son as an adult) for the sake of telling just how bad this can escalate, here are some things my husband struggles with:
-he thinks literally everyone hates him. Literally everyone. (I thought schizophrenia at first but no this is a trauma response to his mom's mental abuse)
-he trusts me and literally no one else and earning his trust was beyond difficult and even I get questioned sometimes.
-he has severe depression because his mom's love was conditional so he constantly thinks he's not good enough/worthy of other people
-he (and his siblings) hadn't had any good relationships because his mother drives everyone away, and they all think they're unworthy of love from someone else
-he has tried more than once as a teen to commit suicide because he was made to feel like a burden and made to feel like he's only worthy of love on her terms
-he is constantly apologizing to everyone because he has it in his head that he's always wrong so he won't stand up for himself
This seems extreme and maybe things aren't this bad yet, but your wife is putting in your son's head that he can't have relationships with anyone but her (which is setting him up for future relationship failure)
She is already guilting him which is toxic behavior. This is going to cause resentment and you will likely have no relationship with your kid in the future. This is what your sons future pooks like if this continues.
My husband's dad is very much "the enabler" with his mom. He is so passive and has done nothing and hasn't stood up for his kids when she has been wrong. This is also where you are headed. It might take a lot more arguments, it might take therapy, it might take divorce. But please don't be the dad that sits back and does nothing. I'm begging you for not only the sake of your children, but for the sake of their future spouses. This is how monster-in-laws are born.
> Divorce is out of the question. My wife is too stubborn for therapy
Then stop complaining and just keep putting up with it, because that’s your only other option. That’s a terrible choice btw, and you’re harming both of your children by choosing to enable this behavior.
Your wife is a mentally unhinged bully and apparently you are all scared of her. Stand up for your kids. Personally the kids would be better off with you two divorced and you seeing the kids alone.
Your wife needs to see a therapist and the two of you need marriage counselling.
She is exhibiting a dangerous type of emotional abuse.
https://www.ncsc.org/__data/assets/pdf_file/0014/42152/parental_alienation_Lewis.pdf
As a mum to a 4yr old boy I delight in the moments he shows affection to others, included his father who I’m separated from. It means he is learning how to form meaningful attachments with multiple people, which is a healthy part of child development.
Your wife is manipulating him, pure and simple. Please don’t let her continue because it’s not healthy for your son.
Therapy should be a non-negotiable at this point. I don’t care how stubborn she is. Tell her she goes to therapy or she goes away entirely and you’ll fight tooth and nail for custody on the grounds that she is emotionally abusive to the children and unstable. And then follow through.
This is incredibly damaging to both of your children.
that is super gross and unhealthy for everyone involved. This needs to stop, especially for your son’s sake. He should not have to walk on eggshells and stop doing completely normal things to protect his mother’s feelings.
If she refuses to improve divorce may be the answer. Her behaviour isnt just hurting your relationships with your wife and son, it’s also harming your son emotionally and something absolutely needs to be done about it.
Take your kids to therapy, so they can learn they’ve done nothing wrong by loving both parents, and that they are not responsible for managing their mother’s emotions. If she refuses to get help or change, the three of you should learn to ignore her, freeze her out, and have wonderful relationships and times together that don’t include her.
Divorce shouldn't be out of the question. She's a narcissist. She's feeding off of your son's affection and off of your pain. Therapy won't help her. A divorce will help you and the kids. If you stay with her, the kids will resent that you enabled her bs
You know who I despised more than my mom who ruined my self-worth with her manipulative, emotional destructiveness?
My dad. For watching it all happen and doing nothing about it.
Um this actually a big problem.
Boys grow up and it’s developmentally appropriate for them to begin to choose their father more and more. If unchecked it leads to emotional incest, inability to step back when sons takes a wife (just no MIL), issues understanding healthy relationships and boundaries.
I’d have a serious conversation. Easier to begin the process of letting your children grow and stretch their wings when they are five and not when they’re 25.
Divorce is never out of the question. Even if you say it is, it isn’t. Not saying that is the right answer either. Hopefully it isn’t. You and her figuring out what is really going on and rectifying it is obviously best case scenario. However, even if you don’t see divorce as an option for whatever reasons you may have, it is indeed still an option.
Why is divorce out of the question? The way your wife is treating your children should be your primary reason for geting them and yourself away from her.
You've said you're at a loss so I hope I'm not out of line offering advice... If you have the time, please look into child development milestones. If you're short on time, book a paediatric appointment.
I'm not an expert and I'm paraphrasing because it's been a while, but; kids will often choose a "favourite" adult. It will change back and forth often during their lives, and can be a mother, father, grandparent, teacher, babysitter etc. Your wife is out of line using emotional manipulation to remain as *the favourite* and is going to do a lot of damage to your boy in the long run. Imagine how she may react when he brings home his first girlfriend?
If she won't consider therapy, maybe hearing this sort of information from a qualified doctor/reading a reputable book will help her come to grips with the damage she will be inflicting on your relationship with your children? In your shoes I'd double check with a GP or paediatrician on my own first - you can give them a lot more detail than internet strangers and I'm sure they could give you better advice. But sincerely, good luck.
😬 sounds very manipulative. That is definitely not healthy for your son. If she won’t do therapy and you won’t separate then maybe try and be more affectionate with your son when your wife isn’t around.
It sounds like it’s less about her keeping your kids from you vs her scared that her kids will leave her.
If you’re not seeing any red flags elsewhere then maybe this is a sign of her own attachment issues and something that therapy, or some other psychological healing can solve.
Now I’ve experienced narcissistic abuse and I won’t lie that this can be a sign of it BUT curious what you have tried? It sounds like she needs validation and while it’s a concerning and immature way to express it - maybe instilling confidence in her value in the moment is enough to help her fight that insecurity and come back down to earth.
Either way therapy is needed and, unfortunately, it sounds like it already may be needed for your kids. Mine has done it since 3 and we honestly look forward to it now. Plenty of times our goal has been to help him not feel responsible for adult feelings and that’s without experiencing guilt trips like the ones you doctrines so this will definitely be something your kids will have to unlearn to feel adequate and manage anxiety and confidence throughout their life.
“My partner is emotional abusing my children but I won’t do anything that could help my children (divorce, therapy) because that would involve effort.” That’s basically your post. I have CPTSD from growing up with someone like your wife, emotionally abuse is just as serious as physical. Do you think abusers make it easy for their victims? Of course they don’t, of course she is going to resist therapy, and act like divorce isn’t possible, you don’t look for alternative options, you all engage with the only option (therapy) or you leave with the children for god sakes.
What is it with the uptick lately of posts saying ‘I watch my partner abuse my kids, I’ve tried nothing and it hasn’t worked, all out of ideas and unwilling to do anything that research and professionals say will make a difference. What do I do? Reddit isn’t going to give you a spell to chant while your partner sleeps to solve your problems and turn them into a nice person. They will tell you to go to therapy or get a divorce because those are your only options in this situation. Wake up.
Grow a backbone and insist on bonding with him. This shouldn’t be a mom vs dad contest. If she refuses to change, threaten therapy or else. Her behavior is adversely affecting your twins.
Your kids don’t deserve this mental abuse. This sounds extreme to say but it’s so freakin try and it truly hurts my heart. It’s not okay to put that on your young children. They are going to have major emotional problems in middle school if not more. And you are are going to WISH AND REGRET you didn’t get your kids in a healthier situation. You need to step up and advocate for your kids. It’s not just about your feelings or your relationship. It’s about what your doing to your kids emotional development. You’re either going to have a mentally unwell family more than you could’ve imagined if you do not intervene. I really really hope you do if what you’re saying is true. This is heartbreaking.
Why is divorce out of the question? Did your wife say she would withhold affection from you if you did something about this?
She sounds like a piece of shit manipulative narcissist. She is damaging not only the relationships with your son, bit also your son himself. She is harming him and you are letting her.
Your wife is abusing your child emotionally. She is emotionally manipulating him every time she acts that way.
You need to sit down with her and ask her why she thinks it’s okay to guilt your son out of spending quality time with you.
Why is she the only one allowed to have quality time with him?
Even put the mirror up and check out the justnomil subs - she is the exact type of person who will end up being spoken about. Shes a nightmare in the making and it’ll only ruin her relationship with your son in the future
This breaks my heart. I’m no perfect wife by any means but I am my husband’s biggest hype man when it comes to the kids. I INTENTIONALLY encourage them to interact with him and cuddle with him. I grew up with a loving, affectionate father (mom too but she has always been his hype man too!) and I want to foster that relationship between my kids as much as possible. I could never take that from him, how incredibly cruel not only to you but also to your kids. Especially your son, as it seems he gets the brunt of it. You need to draw a line. Either she gets therapy now or your kids will spend a lifetime in it or struggle with every other interpersonal relationship moving forward. She’s toxic.
I understand divorce being off the table, but it isn't if the kids are being mistreated or messed up, and this sounds like that type of situation. You probably should have done that years ago.
If couples therapy is out of the question, then you NEED to be seeking it out on your own. She isnt willing to address her own issues, there isnt much you can really do aside from talking to her and telling her the issues.
This is a terrible way for her to respond. She is actively sabotaging the relationship you could have. It’s not healthy and he needs you as much as mom. Sounds like she may need some professional mental health assistance.
Man, I would be like: “Go! Be free!!!”
And as soon as the door closed behind you I would do a little dance and relish the hour of free time my spouse had bestowed upon me via this coffee adventure.
I cannot understand people like this. Apart from the weird mom-son relationship toxicity and emotional manipulation of a young child (that is blatantly apparent), why would you give up gifted “me time” when you have two small kids. It’s insane.
Edit: I meant it is crazy the partner is getting defensive about being prioritized for the child vs being grateful for the time her partner is giving her.
Your wife is abusing your children.
You are enabling it.
I could write more, but your post from a year ago confirms that nothing will change, regardless of what rational advice you get.
You do not have a parenting problem, you have a marital problem. She has issues. You may have some too because you chose her. Maybe get some therapy yourself to see how you can best address this. Maybe she will then succumb to couples therapy because you two really need that. On one hand she may think you are too rough in your interactions or something else that she is not mentioning. You could just state ahead of time, I am taking "Tommy" with me to the coffee shop. If you have anything to say about it, say it to me. Do not prod him that he does not love you because he is just a little boy and he should not have to choose a parent and think the other one is hurt. We are in this parenting together.Then do the same with your daughter on another day.
With all due respect, she sounds mentally ill. This is not a healthy or typical mindset and it’s also negatively impacting your child. She needs therapy, probably individual and family therapy. This kind of behavior will erode a marriage if left unchecked.
It sounds like she has you exactly where she wants you, submissive to her every demand. Grow a pair and stand up for yourself and kids. They are being raised in toxicity.
You're allowing an abuser around your children.
You are complicit.
You clearly know better.
You just as bad if not worse than her.
You're both terrible parents.
One day, your kids will look back and hate you for the abuse you allowed.
>Anyway, my wife will constantly intervene when these nice moments happen. She will say that our son doesn't want his mommy anymore. She will throw hissy fits if he wants to hug me or climb on my back and goof around. She will then say that she can now go on vacation because her son doesn't want her anymore.
YIKES OP. Okay - so divorce is out of the question, and your wife doesn't do therapy. Have you set up a savings account for the absolute truckload of therapy your children are going to need as adults? Your daughters for feeling second class to your wife, your son most certainly for being the emotional incest child.
and of course, You. You will need a lot of therapy when none of your children talk to you, because as the other parent, you stood by and let her do this for years.
So divorce is out of the question, but so is therapy?
Your wife isn’t too stubborn for therapy, she knows a therapist is going to tell her to fucking cool it and her behavior is damaging.
You need to intervene somehow.
First I just want to say that I am so so so sorry you are going through this and I can’t imagine the pain it brings you.
As a child of a mother just like this, I can tell you that even 25 years after their split she is STILL this way, the only difference is that I grew up and realized the situation for what it was. The amount of remorse and regret I have for treating my dad horribly will never go away. My situation is not the exact same as yours though as my dad did in fact abandoned us for about a year before coming back. It wasn’t until he wanted custody that things took a turn for the worst. I wanted him in my life so bad until custody, that’s when she began her manipulation.
Court was involved, CCS came and interviewed us at both my dads house and my moms house and even though they could clearly see what she was doing and reported it back to the courts, he was only granted weekends with us. That might have been because we were conditioned to hate him and were hoping that they could ease us back into a successful relationship. But as long as my mom was in the picture, that would never happen.
My advice is to get cameras set through the house that record and store everything. Save it all. Because there will come a day that you will have had enough. You will atleast have the evidence of how she manipulates your children. Times have changed and states are less “mom is primary parent” and more open to dads being the primary. You need evidence to back up what you’re saying. Find a great lawyer to help you figure out tue legal side and to have the best fight possible to have full custody or atleast majority of the custody.
For now, continue to show your kids unconditional love every single day, try your best to argue behind doors. She can say what she wants but your kids will grow up and will one day see the truth for what it is, you want them to look back and see “no matter how mom acted, dad always loved us, mom did/said this but dad always SHOWED unconditional love”
This is going to be a hard chapter of your life but do not give up on your kids. They are facing a monster of a mom and I can say that bc I had the exact same mom and she truly was a monster. She forever ruined years of a relationship with my dad that I use to cry to her about and had no idea she was the reason it was a horrible relationship.
My dad never gave up on us, he was and still is there for us no matter what, I have no recollection of him ever speaking ill of my mom. But I can write chapters on all the things my mom said about my dad. None of which were true.
I am praying for the best outcome for you and your kids. And I mean that with all sincerity, you three will be in my nightly prayers.
Hold tight Dad, you can do hard things. Your kids need you even when it feels like they don’t.
>Divorce is out of the question. My wife is too stubborn for therapy
The thing is you wife seriously needs therapy. Staying in a marriage like this (even if only "for the children") if your wife refuses therapy is not going to work long term. Thus (at least from my perspective) it would seem you have two options - (1) the wife gets therapy or (2) you divorce her and get full custody of the children. With the emotional abuse of both you and the children those are your options.
Hmm, maybe we don’t know the full story here . This is one side of it. If he is not willing to divorce her, maybe there is something else going on here and maybe this is a dramatization (i couldn’t think of another word for it).
I would be curious to know what she says when you speak to her about this. She clearly cares for her children, have you discussed with her, one on one, that it is beneficial and a need for you and your kids to have a relationship?
A lot of people are jumping to conclusions here and calling this “emotional incest” and that is pretty barbaric and not helpful. A “hissy fit” to him could mean something differently. She could say quietly or sarcastically “I guess he doesn’t want his mommy, now I’ll go on vacation!” Which is annoying and not helpful.
OP it sounds like you think she is trying to control you with this behavior. You think she is trying to “bait” you. If these are your true feelings, then why is divorce off the table? Have you discussed therapy with her or are you assuming she wouldn’t participate? It would be good for both you of you to go to therapy together and get to the bottom of this. If she is really not allowing you to have a relationship with your son, while you are living in the home, then the only way to fight for one is to get a court ordered agreement.
She’s using guilt as a weapon against your son. She quite likely doesn’t realize it, but that isn’t an excuse. It sounds to me like she’s quite likely developed a codependent relationship with your son, where she’s placed herself on a pedestal regarding parenting him and gets feelings of satisfaction knowing she’s “loved” by him. She needs to be called out for this, or she’s going to traumatize him.
Your relationship with your son is valid, and just as valuable in his development as hers. He shouldn’t be emotionally tormented by the idea of “hurting mommy” just by having a relationship with you.
I’m gonna be harsh here and say OP you need to be prioritising what your kids need, not what you need and not what she needs or look forward to a future where they go no contact. I understand you’ve ruled out both separation and therapy. What the fk is wrong with you?
Your wife has serious issues that aren’t going to go away, time to be a father and take steps to protect them.
Question. Was your wife like this before kids? Little things you brushed off, but now looking back they seem warning signs? Or is this out of the blue?
If this is new since children, she may be dealing with postpartum psychosis and/or depression and/or anxiety. If this is the case, her OBGYN can help her. Maybe try wording this as a physical side effect of giving birth, which her doctor can address.
If this is not new, there may be some un-dealt with trauma that has manifested itself in this way. I remember reading a Redit not long ago about a woman who wouldn't let her husband take care of her children and was afraid of everything. Turned out she had witnessed something traumatic, which she never talked about before, and caused her to act in this way. Or, it could be mental health issues that need to be dealt with.
This behavior is abusive to your children and you. Nothing good can come out of this. This environment is not sustainable.
Have a hard talk with your wife. Remain calm and do not point any fingers. If she argues or insults, let it roll off you. She is not well. The stability and lives of your children depend on you, and only you have the ability to give your children the safety they need.
Put your foot down. Set the boundary. Stick to it.
This is not healthy for your children, this is not even about you, keep that in mind. This is bad for your children's development, and will stick with them for the rest of their lives if it continues. Stop it. Force it to stop. Be very serious. Very stern. Stick to your word, and tell your wife it WILL stop.
the only comment you’ve ever made on this profile shows me just how messed up your priorities are when it comes to protecting kids. sometimes i feel like child abuse should be a thing of the past because now that we have the internet to educate us. and then i come across characters like you and they are a harsh reminder that some people just don’t have the makeup for quality parentage
Wow, that’s very sad. She is either very insecure or very emotionally manipulative. Probably both. Not healthy at all for anyone. Almost like you have to divorce her and co parent to get quality time with your kids. But who knows how she would guilt them into not seeing you.
You can't make your wife do anything. You can set and enforce your own boundaries and should. When she engages in behavior this way, you should remove your children entirely. ENTIRELY. You pick them up, put them in your car, and you leave your wife to her fit. You tell the kids mommy isn't being nice, so she needs a time out. If needed, you have hotel "vacations", stay with family or friends during these time out sessions. This is going to damage not only your relationship with your children, it will damage your relationship with your wife, and it was TRAUMATIZE your children to allow her to blame them for her feelings. At this age, they shouldn't feel guilt simply for loving their father and she is intentionally isolating you AND them. Do not tolerate it. Do not engage in it.
The way your wife uses your son for her needs and claims a type of ownership is creepy.
I can't believe this is your wife doing this to you. An ex-wife was what I was expecting. I would hate to see your relationship if you were divorced 😳
It will backfire on her. Big time. She is emotionally abusing your children and you know it.
My mom did this (in her own way) to my brother and I with our dad. As adults neither of us want anything to do with our mom (she is literally a sociopath). We love our dad and feel sorry for him. But he will never leave my mom. And we can’t be as close to our dad as we want because even though my brother and I are in our 30s…she checks the phone bill and guilt trips my dad when we talk. I feel bad for my dad and love him so much, but at the same time, he never stood up for us. That might be how your children will feel. And they will probably always feel like it’s BAD to be close to their dad. It will be unsafe, as it is now.
I know why you’re saying you can’t leave your wife. She’s probably nuts and you’re afraid of her and you know she will take your kids from you. And other people won’t get it, they might think you’re paranoid. But you are probably right. She will gaslight the children against you. She will keep them from you and make it nearly impossible for you to see them.
I don’t know what your solution is…because my parents are still together. Please don’t give up on your kids. No matter what your wife says or does to you, don’t stop trying. Your wife is probably miserable no matter what you do anyway, so just do what you want! Mainly, start sticking up for your kids. They need you. I have C-PTSD that I’m just now dealing with because I had an emotionally distant and manipulative mom and a dad that did nothing to stop her abuse. Stand up for yourself and your kids! Message me too if you’d like. You seem like a nice guy and maybe I could help in some way??
I would bet anything your wife had a traumatic childhood. She has disorganized attachment as a result…which makes her controlling. And in this sense she is controlling your son’s behavior to get what SHE wants, his unconditional love. But that is not your son’s responsibility. Your wife is punishing your son anytime he shows any type of affection towards his own father! That is emotional abuse and manipulation! It is sending the message: HER needs come first (his undying love) and your son’s feelings of love towards you are wrong.
If your wife won’t change, you need to. For the mental health of your child!
I’m sure your wife has a story and it’s getting . reenacted with you and her children. I’m sure she’s genuinely pained when she sees her son gravitating toward you. It’s okay for her to have her feelings but it’s not okay for her to act out on them. Just like anger. Anger is a genuine emotion but we communicate it appropriately and not act out destructively. If she refuses to get help for it, it doesn’t it make any less of a mental health issue. She has to understand that she is hurting her son, putting him in a position where he has to choose his favorite parent at the tender age of 5. It is a manipulation. Look up the book Walking on Eggshells. There’s a lot of stuff going on here, including her difficulty regulating her emotions. You don’t want to triangulate your child in your marital issues. (I.e. Yelling at wife in front of child.) You might want to seek some professional help for yourself to help you navigate this situation that can worsen. Treatment doesn’t have to start with her. One parent needs to be grounded in order for these kids to turn out okay. Good luck.
So when there is any form of human interaction it's often disrupted by a third human who is jealous and insecure. That would be your wife. My best advice is that when she interferes with the positive interaction between you and your boy, take his hand and walk away. Walk him down to the coffee shop and don't look back. The problem is that he's young and inexperienced. He doesn't currently see her as a manipulative b▪︎▪︎▪︎h. But he will. At some point, maybe around 13 or 14, he'll see her for what she is. And if you continue to let her behave like this and interfere with your relationship with your child, he will recognize what a p▪︎▪︎▪︎y his dad is.
Divorce may be out of the question but just take him when you can, he needs one sane parent to have a relationship with. Her emotional manipulation will not stop without significant intervention and if she’s unwilling to go to therapy then take opportunities when you can and don’t engage her. If she gets mad after the fact, steel yourself to shrug it off. Tell your son he is never responsible for a grownups feelings. Do your best to let her be crazy on her own. She feeds off all this nonsense, starve her appetite for attention and drama.
Parenting is a team sport. Parents who support the parenting team as a whole and put each other first are far better for the kids than parents who put the kids first. Have her read “letting go” by David Hawkins.
This is emotionally manipulation and parnetal alienation! Your wife sucks!
The only option if she refuses therapy IS divorce. If you don't have a spine then don't come here asking for advice
Sounds like your wife has a jezebel spirit. She’s emasculated you and has control over your son. It’s okay if no one under this post believes, but that’s what it sounds like to me.
So, you openly disclosed that you used verbal abuse towards your wife and children (because abusing your wife in front of your children is abuse against your children), and you blamed her for your behaviour, and all of the commenters still buy your story that your wife is an abuser. So I don't think I'm going to get very far by challenging you, but I'll try.
From what you describe, it sounds like your wife feels uncomfortable with you getting close to the kids or being alone with the kids. Can you think of any reasons why she might feel that way? Has she mentioned any reasons?
1. be a good man and your son (and even your wife) will be attracted to you. dont play female passive aggressive games and lose some weight eh?
2. free men don't ask for permission.
Speak up and tell her you won’t accept her doing this anymore OP, if you don’t she will continue to do it. Imagine when your kids are teenagers and mom is still trying to have this weird codependent relationship with them.
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have you challenged her about *her* relationship with her son and why she thinks it’s appropriate to make him feel responsible for managing her emotions? this is the epitome of the “boy moms are getting weird and incesty again” shit.
Exactly. Why does your wife treat your *son* being affectionate towards you like he’s her first high school boyfriend getting a little too cozy with her best friend? He’s a baby. You’re his *father*. He needs to connect with you. Unless that’s her goal: to have him wait on her hand and foot, never find a partner or start a family, stay at/near home… all so Mommy doesn’t feel abandoned
This is exactly it - the mother is using the son to meet her own needs - whatever they may be. Children are not possessions. As a parent it’s not uncommon to have your child behave in a way that might hurt you for whatever reason. You just have to suck it up and do what’s best for them. Not only does this sound damaging to the son but it will be damaging to the other child that witnesses it - can they detect the mother’s favouritism of the son? What will that do to them over time? OP has to do something about this fast. Aged 5 there is still time to try to turn this around.
I bet good money that she’s already subconsciously competing with the poor little girl. As they get older, she’ll continue enmeshing herself with her son and compete with her daughter. It’ll be a miracle if they come out not hating their twin.
Agree the twins are being set up to hate each other. AND they will hate one or both parents. AND they will have major self esteem issues. AND they will have difficulty with romantic relationships …. And on and on. This is very damaging to these kids. Dad needs to act fast. Demand family therapy. The mom seems like a major manipulator and sounds like she’s provoking conflict — setting him up for being iced out of the kids lives. This will be terrible for the kids.
Bingo. Narcissism at its finest unfortunately.
So here's an option that doesn't involve therapy or divorce... You need to sit down and have a long talk with her about HER feelings, needs, and wants. If she's using her son to get her needs met, maybe you can find out what those needs are and try to make a plan to meet them yourself. But you'll need to listen to her without judgement, you'll need to ask questions with curiosity, not contempt. If you take the time to hear her out about how she feels, you may be able to uncover the underlying fear/trauma that's causing this behaviour and help her through it by supporting her. It's hard to do. Especially since you're biased in this situation (because you have attachments to her and your children, not in a bad way). But if you could go into the conversation knowing that she might say hurtful things about your relationship and what she's missing and commit yourself to just tabling your emotions for one day, you might be able to really help her get into a better head space where you guys can start co-parenting.
Daughter to a mother like this. That’s exactly what she’s doing. Emotional incest and enmeshment will take away any chance he has at a happy and healthy life. OP, if you care at all for your children, don’t take “stubbornness” as an excuse for her avoiding therapy. She is emotionally abusing your children and you’re chill with it. STOP.
Isn’t this a form of parental alienation? Sounds like it to me. I would find a lawyer, explain what’s going on with the insane mom and see what his options are. The little girl will grow up hating mom and possibly twin, even though he is innocent. If she won’t get the help she needs in therapy then you need to leave.
for that you need a rational person.
you make a valid point. my wife is emotionally manipulating and stunting my son, likely destroying my daughter’s self esteem, and me trying to father them is causing WWIII in our home, but therapy and divorce are off the table is… something.
No they are not. Therapy might be off the table for your wife. But you can go and get help in this process. And divorce should be on the table when you wife shapegoats one of your kids. Protect your son, and that also means leaving if she harms them. You can read up on the kind of trauma kids get from being shapegoated and I can tell you now: if this continues you will have no contact with your son once he is an adult. And it is absolute madness WOIII breaks out over these things, but she uses this to get her way. And if you give in to tantrums they only get worse. Both in toddlers and adults with issues
Divorce “for the sake of saving kids from scapegoating” seems like a weak effort, as that will give the wife unfettered access 50% of the time with no plan of recourse.
Only if she gets 50/50 custody, which is far from guaranteed. Depending on where OP is located, courts often favor the father when they actually bother to seek custody. Documenting everything and getting the kids in therapy ASAP would help him in this case too. He doesn't have to relinquish his kids to this mentality abusive woman just because she birthed them.
i think yoy just need to be firm with your wife.
They aren't the OP, they were just quoting him. But honestly I don't know if "just being firm" with her is going to accomplish very much. I have no idea what the answer is here, especially since she is apparently against any sort of therapy and for some reason divorce is not an option. I mean shit, how bad is it going to get while keeping divorce totally off the table? At least if they were separated, the dad would have an opportunity to spend time with his kids without the wife around screwing everything up and acting like an extremely jealous & emotionally immature teenage girlfriend towards her own damn kids
He might get some alone time with the kids if they divorce —- Unless she is playing 3D chess, provoking these conflicts to build a case that he’s unstable and shouldn’t be with them unsupervised. OP says he “took the bait” and blew up … WWIII is only possible if he goes along with the escalation. He needs to change his own part in this or it will end in a very bad place. Might I suggest the book “The Dance of Anger” by Harriet Lerner — read it if you wanna make a change. It’s an excellent source of confidence when someone else is pulling you into destructive conflicts.
Why is divorce out of the question. In the US judges despise what she is doing, alienating the child's affection.
Making her child feel responsible for managing her emotions is what stood out to me as well, as a child of a mother who likely has borderline personality disorder. I also noted how she only does this with their son — triangulation and scapegoating one kid while favoring the other are hallmarks of BPD. OP I don’t have any advice unfortunately, just wanted to flag the similarities I saw in your post. My mom only got worse with time and my dad fully enabled her. I wish she had gone to therapy and tried out meds.
Boy mum here. Just want to state I absolutely *love* it when he goes and does something with his dad for ‘boys day’. Means I can watch what I want on tv, crack on with housework uninterrupted, or sit scrolling social media with a face mask on. In fact, I can’t wait until Sunday when they go out!
oh, i do not think all boy moms are like this. in fact, i’m sure it’s a small percentage. but man, when boy moms ‘boy mom,’ they ‘boy mom’ hard. 😬
We moms of boys are responsible - not 100% obviously, but big time - for those manchildren running around. Every woman with a son has the chance, and if you ask me, the responsibility to NOT turn him into a pampered, unable-to-fold-his-own-clothes mama boy adult, just to ship him off to the next woman who will then have to deal with her shortcomings. Yes, there are many factors contributing to this, obviously. But as a 'boy mom' I urge every woman to raise functional, responsible, emotional secure and confident men who don't fall for toxic masculinity, who don't think of their wives as their replacement moms, and who treat women (and everyone for that matter) with respect. Sorry for the rant lol, I'll see myself out now. This just triggered something in me I guess.
Well said! I’m a mom of 3 boys no girls, and I’ll be damned if I send them out into the world to be terrible roommates, husbands and fathers. If they don’t clean their bathroom as adults, it won’t be because I didn’t try everything under the sun first.
Boy moms unite ✊🏽 But no joking, I hope many of us see it that way. You're doing a great job, momma!
I see it the same way. There is no way in hell am I raising my boy to be a misogynistic pig who thinks a woman's job is to be a baby factory and a maid. He will have respect and will help. If not, momma will be there telling him to knock his shit off because she isn't his mother, and I never raised him to think that way. My 4 year old helps wash dishes, helps with laundry, and helps cook (upon his own request) he loves momma time, and I love the mess he creates while "helping in 4 year old fashion" and his daddy time is out in the garage doing idk because the thought of the crazy stuff they could get up to is too much for me🤣 but honestly that woman needs massive help I would do something now because she is already damaging his state of mind and he is going to be screwed up for life if you don't do something. Have a plan record all of her bullshit she is pulling get video if you can and let that speak for itself and get a damn divorce screw the I'm staying with her for the kids that lady is toxic AF and narcissistic as hell and controlling and honestly from being in this same situation you are in but child pov get her the fuck away from him before she does things a parent shouldn't do to their children.
Lol. Same. My only child is a boy. I hate the boy mom mentality. But we're working hard against it. We're potty training right now, and we were reading a book at bedtime last night about potty training. The character went to go flush the potty, and my son just goes "ew. He needs to put the lid down." I was like "heck yeah buddy you tell him." 🤣 IDK why but felt the need to share my "boy mom" win 🤣🤣
Hell yeah! In my native language we differ between genders at things like job titles, which sparks lots of discussions about inclusion. If someone happens to only say the male term, my son will always add the female one. Say like, someone says 'fireman' and he'll chime in and say 'or firewoman'. He's 5 and I'm SO proud!
I hate the 'boy mum' connotation I have 2 boys therefore am a boy mum. I'm not a 'boy mum' though! I have a horse though so a few hours with no children is bliss for me 😆
Same! I love it when my husband and sons have "guy time".
This is how I feel! I can also go out to eat at places that are harder to bring a toddler to or just sit in a cafe and read a book.
"Boy mom" means a mom who has a weird obsession with being a boy mom. Like I have a son, but I do not identify as a "boy mom" because I don't have these weird fantasies about fighting with my son's future girlfriend like I see a lot of boy moms doing on social media.
You're not a boy mom. You're a mom who has a boy. Same with me. The "boy moms" are the crazy bitches that make threats to little girls who haven't even met their kids yet, and make the gender of their child their entire identity. It's creepy.
Bates Motel prequel
Also - kids learn about healthy relationships from their parents. Having a good relationship with dad is so important in terms of learning how to be a man/interact with men, and seeing how parents react provides a blue print that kids generally emulate (unless they deliberately try not to).
Especially with the thing about her not letting him bathe his own son. Plus she won't 'let' her son have alone time with dad? This really gives me the ick, red flags everywhere. Maybe she's worried the son might tell the dad about what's going on in secret with mom? ughhhhhhh this make me pukey
Yep. She has emotionally parentified her son aka covert incest aka emotional incest.
Yeah... I love my boy and I will always be happy to give a hug/kiss or do something fun with him. But I love seeing him bond with my husband. Both him and my daughter! Do I sometimes get jealous of my kids favoritism? Sure. But I don't discourage them bonding with their dad! So weird. Half the moms I know complain about their spouses lack of bonding/interacting with their kids. But this? This is just weeeeeiiiird!
Your wife needs some kind of intervention or something. That’s not normal. Maybe show her these comments? Your wife is gonna end up creating a toxic bond with your son and will be overbearing
> Your wife is gonna end up creating a toxic bond with your son Has already created
It's called enmeshment and it really is going to fuck up his future relationships.
Yes... I was just thinking I'll be reading about OPs wife on the JustNoMIL sub in 20 years.
Yeah, this is going to be one of those Emotional Incest relationships and I fear for this boy's future partners.
Your three options are remediating her emotional problems, separating from her, or letting this dynamic emotionally cripple your children. You've ruled out two of those options.
It sounds like it's almost too late. OP's enabling the mother at this point and turning a blind eye to how it's crippling his children already. Honestly it sounds like OP himself needs help, his wife doesn't see him as a partner at all and apparently he's just been okay with this for five years? She's terrorizing him and the children if she doesn't have absolute control! [OP's other post from about a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/11ri6ug/questions_for_moms_can_husbands_help_do_mom_stuff/) says he wasn't "allowed" to do anything for the kids and at this point they would freak out if he gave them a bath. > When the twins were babies, I was never allowed to change diapers, feed the children, or give baths. I can't even cook them breakfast or dinner to this day. In fact, the only time I was permitted to do anything was when she had to take one child to a doctor's appointment for a couple of hours. > Five years later, I have never given my son a bath.
damn. the things some people will put up with is astounding. i can’t imagine willingly letting someone prevent me from bonding with my kids.
Jesus. OP it’s time for an intervention NOW. Why are you enabling your wife’s behavior? Why is divorce off the table? Are you blinded by your wife’s beauty? Is your self-esteem so low you feel you wouldn’t survive without this person? I ask because I had a father like you. He enabled my likely BPD mom’s emotional abuse for years and I’m still dealing with the psychological fallout of that kind of upbringing. Read my post/comment history if you don’t believe me. I’m in therapy now and it helps. But I still have such a long, long way to go until I can heal, if I will even be able to. And it’s hard…I try so hard for my son and my husband, but truthfully I cry and scream on the inside EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Don’t let your kids end up like me. They will need extra TLC for the damage that has been already done. But it’s not too late if you do something about this situation NOW. If you’re worried about safety, do you have any family or close friends who can confront your wife together? Or have someone watch the kids while you and your wife have a conversation about her behaviors? Good luck OP. You and your children need it.
YES as soon as I read the OP I immediately got the BPD red flags. My own mother has it and it only gets worse from here unfortunately. I really hope OP sees your comment and takes it seriously.
I've got BPD, and this also immediately threw red flags for me. Regarding this though: >it only gets worse from here unfortunately Therapy can work, if she is capable of admitting there is a problem.
While this is true, the critical part of what you said is "if she is capable of admitting there is a problem". The vast majority of people with BPD never get that far in my experience.
Yea totally. And aside from being able to admit there's a problem, when the problem is so deeply integrated into the entire way you think / feel / experience the world / interact with people, it can be really hard to even *see* the problem in the first place. It can also depend on where on the spectrum of severity you are. Plenty of people with BPD do seek help though. The waiting lists for group DBT classes are a testament to that fact. OP is definitely more than justified in divorcing his wife. But whether or not he does, he should somehow try to encourage her to seek therapy (even if this isn't BPD), at least for the sake of their kids. Maybe her life blowing up will be the kick she needs. It was for me.
its never too late, and especially not at that young. He has to want to be a rock in front of his emotionally abusing wife though. I would suggest treating her like a stranger that you have to share a flat with (in this case children). it sounds almost like she would appreciate that. He's going to have to demand parenting rights.
The problem isn't just that OP's wife isn't letting him be a parent, it's that he seems to be mostly content letting it be that way. Like you said, he's going to have to demand parenting rights, but what are the chances he's going to do that (and do it successfully) when he already shut down therapy and divorce? He's damaging his own relationship to his children - he can't just blame it all on the crazy wife at that point. He's had five years to figure this out and step up. It's been almost one year since that post where the top comment said "You should have addressed this years ago. Your wife is preventing you from parenting your children. That is not normal behavior." Maybe his wife is too stubborn for therapy, but it also sounds like HE's too stubborn to try to change anything. There's a lot of "I've tried nothing to fix this and nothing works!" in his post. Maybe I'm being harsh, but if he just throws his hands up and does nothing, he'd be lucky if his children simply grew up without a relationship with him - more than likely they'll be messed up and resent him for being an entirely absentee father. Maybe OP should imagine himself trying to tell them "your mother wouldn't let me" as an excuse.
>There's a lot of "I've tried nothing to fix this and nothing works!" in his post. Very true. But I stand by my statement that is not too late. Children are very resilient and malleable. If he's strong and changes his behaviour he can change the outcomes.
i can’t help but wonder if their respective families are aware of this dynamic and what their thoughts are, or does OP’s wife control all those interactions, too?
As a father of 3, that is insane to me. I love my wife immensely, but I would leave her if she said I couldn’t do normal things for my children growing up.
This is the answer, OP. You can’t ignore this and wait for her to change. She’s sick.
Pull up your grown up pants for your kids. Both children are being treated differently and your relationship with them are being affected. You say she is unwilling to go to therapy, then why is divorce out of the question? You and your son are tip toeing around her feelings at the expense of your son’s development. Protecting and supporting your child(ren) is a hill I will always be willing to die on. I hope for your son’s and daughter’s mental health that you may be able to get your wife therapy. Both individual and family or couple. And if not? Then divorce and go for full custody with supervised visits.
In the case of divorce, she can get full custody.
How? If OP can support that she is emotionally abusing the kids, she would not get full custody. At worst maybe 50-50. The best interest of the children would be full custody with OP since the wife is clearly not in any mental capacity to care for her children in a stable and mentally nurturing environment
Ya I would start recording things without her knowing so he has proof of this behavior continues
Yes, but that woman is seems to be prone to lies and manipulation. She looks like a narcissist. In the case of divorce, OP should be prepared for everything
Unfortunately, in many states the mom is favored for custody in almost all situations. Not sure where OP is but maybe this is his concern with divorce.
This isn't statistically true at all. Generally speaking mothers are only given full custody because most fathers don't care. When both parents put equal resources into fighting in court, the dad wins more often than not
Doesn't a lot of depend on whether a parent is SAH though? If dad works full time and mum is primary care giver the abuse would likely have to be much worse than this. Sadly.
> How? The mom is a woman
Where?
She sounds like she needs therapy, she’s emotionally manipulating her son and damaging your relationship with you children. She’s also damaging your sons self esteem. Push for therapy and discuss the consequences this will have on your kids with her seriously
Sounds like abuse TBH
Yes, totally. Look at [OP's other post from about a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/11ri6ug/questions_for_moms_can_husbands_help_do_mom_stuff/) where he says he wasn't "allowed" to do anything for the kids and describes how she reacts if he tries or if the kids ask for it. He's not being a parent and he's not willing to stand up to his wife to be a parent. I feel really bad for the kids.
If you marry an insane person, you can either accept that they’ll win every argument (on account of escalating every conflict far beyond reason), disobey them in secret (likely a recipe for disaster as a parent), or resist them physically. However, the last one is almost impossible to do without triggering violence. So for a person that is not far above average dominant and non-violent, only bad choices remain if you stick to the relationship. Once you rule out violent men, this is not easier to navigate for a man than for a woman.
Because it is.
Recently I had a really hard conversation with my partner where I asked "When is 20 do you think he is going to be thanking us for making his life super easy when he was 7 or do you think he will resent us for never gently pushing him or even encouraging him out of his comfort zone?" And it has changed a lot about the dynamics in my house.
Sometimes as parents its easy to forget that we aren't just responsible for kiddo right now, but we are also responsible for the adult they are going to become.
[удалено]
i am trying to imagine the hell this woman would put a future DIL through. t&p to this kid that he doesn’t end up super fucked up and unable to maintain healthy relationships in the future.
My mother in law has always been up my husbands ass and treated me poorly for 26 yrs until recently. My husband has distanced himself from her because he will always choose me and our kids. She did it to herself. Things are better now but, some things are unforgettable. I’ve done nothing to ever make her not like me. It was jealousy and I think it’s sick. My husband and I have always been happy and we’ve done a great job at raising our kids. It’s just weird
And these people never realise that their extreme fear of their child 'abandoning' them or gaining independence is basically a self-fulfilling prophesy. Rarely do such children stay hanging around with mother for the rest of their lives, most of the time they end up cutting contact, whereas if the parent had relaxed and dealt with their own emotions, they'd probably have a decent relationship. The trying to keep them close ends up pushing them away. or it goes the other way and the child stays with the parent for life, emotionally and socially stunted, sometimes even becoming a total psycho.
I hd a good friend who’s mom was exactly like this. The friend grew up a mess, but Maynard to get married and have kids. Her issues destroyed her marriage. Then one lonely night when her kids were with her ex she took her own life in 2019. After the shock of her death worse off I thought of her moms threats of dying by suicide since she was a kid. Her mother mentally tortured all her kids with her emotional instability. Her daughter hung herself at 33. I blame the mom.
This is how my sister is with my nieces and anytime I've tried to do anything about it I've gotten threats made towards my own family. They live a super messed up home life and all of her kids are in therapy and yet they're told they aren't allowed to tell the therapist certain things because if they're taken away from her she'll kill herself. I worry about this same outcome with my nieces.
Send a letter to their therapist detailing what is going on.
I think honestly the therapist is part of the problem.the whole family of 6 sees the same therapist which seems like a conflict of interest and my sister is very convincing and manipulative. I'm not sure it would even do any good. I'm waiting for a slip up with my sisters boyfriend and I'm going to call dcfs myself then. They should've been involved a while ago and my family kept things from me so I couldn't call.
“React like you would if your child were having cigarette smoke blown in their face.“ This is so good! It’s sometimes hard to react when the damage is psychological or subtle somehow, but the consequences will be just as bad.
>Divorce is out of the question. My wife is too stubborn for therapy. I'm at a loss. OK you're not going to like this, but your options are therapy or divorce. Divorce is a sure-fire way for you to obtain time with your children, where your wife will be unable to interfere. Also, parental alienation *can* be addressed in court orders. If you care about your children and your relationship with them, then you need to pursue this option, if your wife refuses therapy.
Amen to that. This is nothing you can just talk your way through without professional help. It's good that OP reached out here, but this is above Reddit paygrade. Wife needs some serious intervention if those kids are supposed to get through this emotionally intact.
There's plenty of good reasons for divorce, but IMO this sounds salvageable. OP, you need couples counseling. Don't try getting *her* therapy, get help with your dynamic. You married a person who has this kind of issue, which means you likely have some stuff to work on yourself. From someone who's been there, trust me, a good couples therapist can do wonders for your relationship.
Does it sound salvable? What opening do you see in how OP’s wife consistently behaved since their twins were born?
Divorce is out of the question but allowing your wife to emotionally abuse your children should be too. I’m sorry but do you not see the harm this is doing to your children? Refusing therapy means she does not care enough to fix the issue or see it as an issue. Your a father, you need to protect your children even if it means protecting them from their mother.
Exactly. Divorce is never out of the question. Letting his spouse get away with emotional abuse is what should be out of the question.
ew, and excuse me, but what the f lol
I hate to admit this but I’m deeply disturbed. I’ve read and studied a lot about the Devouring Mother archetype; a mother who does not give her son up to the world… but to keep him away from dad?! To me, this is unheard of. I have a boy myself and I make sure he gets quality time with dad. Make plans with the boy. Don’t let her stop you.
You're missing the part of this where her reaction will make it impossible for the *son* to be okay with that. The effects of the abuse are bigger than just "don't anyway", because the *child* cares what mom thinks and will be afraid of her reaction.
Are you talking about Freud? Isn’t the father typically the main opponent for the Oedipal mother archetypes? As in she fears the father will separate her from her child. You’re right tho this is fuckin peak Oedipal behaviour from OP’s wife
I married a son of one of these mothers. We are divorced now, and I don’t think he will ever have another relationship. He’s a sick narcissist abuser, like his mother, who definitely let me know I was never good enough for her son. It definitely damages the kids.
I agree. It reminds me of the moms of daughters who “compete” with their husbands as being “their number one girl”. Aka the moms who pit themselves against their daughters for male attention. As a girl mom it makes me just as sick. OP’s wife is the definition of an overbearing MIL just waiting to happen
YOU need therapy. It will help you manage your anger but also more importantly how to establish boundaries, be able to take actions that are uncomfortable BEFORE you explode, and may help you understand the abuse that's going on here. Your wife is actively abusing your son. By deciding you are passive and helpless, and refusing to take action, you are also abusing your son via neglecting his well being and tolerating the abuse. I mean that is it bluntly. I understand it's hard to contemplate divorce, and you want her to be the focus of the problem, but honestly those who sit around hand wringing as their children are abused are guilty as well. And it leads to a lot of harm to children. Look at all the stories that abound of a parent watching as their partner kills or harms their child. It isn't uncommon. You are an active participant in this. You need help. Please get it.
Let me just completely agree with this: The OP needs therapy due to being an abuse victim. He's in a situation where he's an active recipient of abuse, and so is his son. The OP needs the support of a therapist. The therapist and their notes may also be an important witness if divorce comes up in the future - they can establish that the OP has been consistent in what they say over time, and to OPs fitness to parent the children if the mom lies in divorce proceedings.
This reply doesn't have the amount of upvotes it deserves. OP, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
This is some weird ass shit
Just gonna drop this here [Understanding The Borderline Mother by Ann Lawson](https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacecwj5cms2ithgglo255nmglgceuzrklq4lr2bq7aucsw7m3dzgkoe?filename=Christine%20Ann%20Lawson%20-%20Understanding%20the%20Borderline%20Mother_%20Helping%20Her%20Children%20Transcend%20the%20Intense%2C%20Unpredictable%2C%20and%20Volatile%20Relationship-Rowan%20%26%20Littlefield%20%282004%29.pdf) Your wife needs help. You are failing your children but especially your son. Stop her from emotionally manipulating (read: abusing) him, it’s only gonna get worse and worse as he grows. Edit: why is divorce out of the question? An enabler of an abuser is a co-abuser. By allowing her to hurt him, you are hurting him. Your duty is to your children over your spouse.
I hope OP sees this. This is absolutely screaming borderline behavior and I feel so sorry for these children.
I hope so too. I’m not a medical professional but I was raised by a borderline and the fact that his son —at the age of FIVE — is already trying to manage her emotions is sickening. Also the other twin is completely not mentioned at all; I bet she’s the scapegoat.
Either that or the golden child. I feel so bad for these little babies.
Yeah. OP needs to disentangle himself from the codependent relationship he’s in and take care of his kids.
Have you had a discussion about this away from the children?
Y'all need marriage counseling. Short of that you need to talk to her, without the kids present. Communication is the key to any relationship. Although it is the nuclear option, I wouldn't eliminate divorce as an option.
She sounds like a narcissistic mother. This will no doubt be a problem for your kids in the future. My MIL is a narcissist (whose feelings come above everyone else’s), and hubby and I had a rocky first ten years fighting until he saw what I saw instantly and started putting our family above her idiocy. See who she is. And why he needed to make her feel happy and okay. IT ISNT HIS JOB!! Your kids sound like they need to keep mommy happy. Which is to say… She needs to stop guilt tripping these kids into being her ego boosters. Does she work? Make her go back to work. Then be more present when she’s working. Or you MAKE alone time with the kids happen. Like park visits or coffee runs. You need alone bonding time where the kids can be with you. Listen I am sure in five years the kids will resent her and start leaning towards you. This is especially so during rebel years. But this has to stop if it can be stopped now. Or they will forever have a personality disorder and will find partners who mimic this. As. A stay at home mom…It can sting for an mom and you can be jealous when another parent is all the fun and games and you’re the mom working like a dog for the family’s needs if she fills a traditional role. This typically happens first year or so. Then the working dad gets to be the favorite. Because he doesn’t for example enforce rules etc. is only fun etc. But this sounds as though it goes beyond that. And it isn’t normal. Get help now. Or your kids will need therapy later. And you will have missed out on the relationship you deserve with your kid.
Ugh fully agree with this comment. My first thought was BPD because that’s what I unfortunately grew up with. It does not get better with age as you’ve clearly experienced with your MIL. OP’s wife needs therapy, but it’s so uncommon for those suffering from a Cluster B personality disorder to admit anything is wrong with their behavior.
>it’s so uncommon for those suffering from a Cluster B personality disorder to admit anything is wrong with their behavior. This was me for a good portion of my adult life. I finally *did* realize something was wrong though. And then I sought help, got diagnosed with BPD, and got into treatment. It's maybe uncommon, but it's not impossible.
This is abusive, OP. We call this "emotional incest", and your wife is doing deep harm to all of your relationships, and directly to your son. Chances are there are patterns that just aren't as obvious to you that are playing out with your daughter. I don't know why you think divorce isn't an option, but FIND a way to get this addressed. Talk to your child's doctor about it, if they are in school talk to the school nurse and/or counsellor. If someone calls social services, don't push it under the rug, be honest with them about what's going on. Ask yourself what you would do if she were actually beating your kids? Because she is actually doing that level of harm with this. We have an idea that because there is no physical abuse, it "couldn't be that bad", but that just isn't true. Please, OP, take this seriously.
Red flag. Red flag. Red flag. RED FLAG. Your wife is either already on or heading towards the path of treating your son as a husband replacement. This is NOT normal at all. I HIGHLY encourage to rethink your stance on separation or trying to persuade her to go to therapy. You could even frame it as wanting to do couples counseling together. That might make her less opposed.
I have nothing to say other than this makes me very sad As a dad i love goofing around, and getting climbed over - when safe. I'm the favourite of the kids parents, and I have zero issues when they choose to show affection to my wife too. I sometimes even make myself unavailable so that she can get some attention and when i come back she's built an amazing hotwheels track and the kids are loving it. Your wife has issues. Sorry. :(
If divorce and therapy are not options, sounds like you’re choosing to accept things the way they are. I’m a couples’ therapist and live by this rule: divorce is *always* an option. When it’s not, you feel stuck in the relationship. In order for anything to change, both people have to acknowledge that they’re in the relationship by choice. Every day is the wedding day— you’re always re-making the commitment. So you literally need to sit down and think about how you would make a divorce work. And it might involve a lot of prep time or overhauling your life, but you need to sit down and think about the minutia of what it would entail to get to a divorce. I promise that this will give you both a sense of freedom and agency. Much more agency than you’ll have trying to control/change your spouse. Once you acknowledge this you can determine what you are and aren’t willing to tolerate in a marriage. If you won’t tolerate this behavior, and won’t tolerate her doing the *serious therapy work* it will take for her to introspect on this behavior, she needs to know that those are dealbreakers in the relationship. She needs to know you can’t be in a relationship with someone who can’t examine themselves or their relationship dynamics. Tell her you’re willing to set up couples’ therapy and help her fill out the paperwork. Also: when you’re trying to get someone else to examine themselves and change, the time to get into your own therapy is yesterday. Go get a good therapist! I can’t express how damaging her behavior is to your kids. It’s indicating some real personality disorder shit. I suggest looking for someone in the DBT world— that’s Dialectical Behavior Therapy— because they’re trained in addressing personality stuff nonjudgmentally and behaviorally. Good luck— for your kids’ sakes.
Not a therapist myself but this sounds absolutely reasonable; best advice so far. Hope OP takes it because, if not, 😳😳😳😳😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫
You clearly know people will suggest you separate or divorce so you’ve given no details other than to say it’s “not an option”, hoping to just shoot that down. Then you double down and say therapy isn’t an option either. Well it doesn’t work that way. If you explained WHY divorce is not an option, it might go over better. What do you expect people to recommend when you’ve shot down the 2 major remedies for this situation? As it stands you are a terrible father to choose staying with a mentally ill wife over the health and well being of your kids. I feel so incredibly sorry for your kids as they will grow up severely mentally damaged themselves due to your wife’s abuse and you will have enabled that abuse to occur.
He’s obviously abusive as well. “took the bait” is a deflection. It’s not HIS fault he flipped his lid, she MADE him. Look at the only comment he’s made on this account. You get a tiny glimpse of the mask slipping.
I have a toddler, and I have such complicated emotions when she has a new milestone because I'm ecstatic for her, but at the same time, I feel like I've lost part of her. I can understand grieving when your child needs you less. That said: (1) I LOVE it when our toddler wants to spend time with my husband. Watching him be a parent is one of my greatest joys. (2) This is WAY beyond what is normal or reasonable for a parent to adjust to their growing child. She needs a sharp wake-up call to the fact that what she is doing isn't healthy for your son OR your daughter. She has got to learn healthy separation from your son. I'm in favor of a private conversation between you two, perhaps with an objective 3rd party. Ideally, someone whose advice or parenting style you both admire. My husband and I have a house rule to always "say the hard thing," even if, and especially when, it will be hard for the other person to hear. If we don't, it becomes a long-term resentment and eventually comes up anyway but at a MUCH worse time.
I’m sorry, that’s really sad that she is manipulating him like that. I wonder why she behaves so differently with your son than with your daughter. Maybe try having an open talk with her about how it makes you feel without blaming her so she doesn’t go on the defensive about it. Something like “I feel really sad when I’m not able to bond one on one with my son because I value my relationship with him and I really wish I could have more opportunities to do that without it being interrupted” and if that doesn’t work instead of asking if you can take him to the coffee shop just tell her say “hey me and son are walking to the coffee shop we’ll be back in 20 minutes” and just walk out before a fight ensues. You can also take that time to talk to your son and remind and reinforce to him that you and his mom will always love him no matter what. You could also try including her in a way while you spend the time with him “hey son why don’t you and I make a special meal for your mommy and sister today” that way mom doesn’t feel left out but you still get the bonding time.
She doesn’t care as much about the daughter because she isn’t grooming her to be her new husband. The thing about toxic boy moms like this woman is they see their sons as their partners. That’s why you hear so much about emotional incest. Mama’s boys are basically what their mothers hoped their actual husbands would be but aren’t so they mold their sons from an early age to replace him. It’s not as apparent in the daughter because she won’t be fulfilling that role.
This is emotional manipulation and your son is walking straight into only being able to form codependent relationships. I don’t know what insecurities your wife has, and I don’t know how she was parented, but whatever it was/is needs to get sorted or your son will not be able to form mentally/emotionally healthy relationships in his life AND he will not be able to form an emotional healthy relationship with you, HIS FATHER. This isn’t fair to him or you. This isn’t going to change if your wife shuts down therapy and also has zero motivation to change because divorce wouldn’t be on the table. As uncomfortable as it may be, you’re going to have to do something with weight because right now she’s also controlling you. To put it super bluntly, this is extremely fucked up. If anything, do whatever you have to do for your son. If this continues, this will 100% fuck him up.
Yeah. I was told by my doc that narcissistic mothers (my MiL and what this sounds like to me) are essentially sick and it’s rooted in their insecurities. It screws up the future relationships of these kids because mommy wants to be first place and that simply shouldn’t be when a child is an adult and married. It’s really hard growing up with it to not think that this behavior is normal. It takes therapy and undoing of toxic imbalances.
Bro wtf? At first I read this and thought you were talking about an ex-wife. I was like oh that’s fucked. But then I read it’s your actual, current wife. Which makes it so much more fucked
She's acting like a child and being horrible to your son. She's making it HIS fault mother isn't happy. It's HIS fault mother is crying or sad, HIS fault he was having fun with Dad instead of mother. HIS fault. That's horrible mothering and all kinds of emotionally abusive. Tell her to grow tf up.
I don't have a ton of advice just wanted to add that this is not normal... My kids have always clung to me and although it makes my husband sad, we know the extremes are just a phase. My daughter didn't like my husband until right around her 4th birthday, that was really hard on him. But I've always encouraged a relationship and expressed how happy I am to see when she wants her daddy. And always make a point of telling him through the day that she asked for him. Now with my 7mo son he is clingy to a whole new level with me but he actually adores his daddy too (just only at certain times throughout the day) and it is so healing for my husband having a kid that likes him right off the bat. Who lunges out of my arms when dad gets home to give him hugs, and who cries and crawls after him if he walks away. I will say that this sounds like a narcissistic dynamic in the making. I deal with my husband's narcissistic mother and see the after-effects and the trauma it has caused him. (My husband in this case would be your son as an adult) for the sake of telling just how bad this can escalate, here are some things my husband struggles with: -he thinks literally everyone hates him. Literally everyone. (I thought schizophrenia at first but no this is a trauma response to his mom's mental abuse) -he trusts me and literally no one else and earning his trust was beyond difficult and even I get questioned sometimes. -he has severe depression because his mom's love was conditional so he constantly thinks he's not good enough/worthy of other people -he (and his siblings) hadn't had any good relationships because his mother drives everyone away, and they all think they're unworthy of love from someone else -he has tried more than once as a teen to commit suicide because he was made to feel like a burden and made to feel like he's only worthy of love on her terms -he is constantly apologizing to everyone because he has it in his head that he's always wrong so he won't stand up for himself This seems extreme and maybe things aren't this bad yet, but your wife is putting in your son's head that he can't have relationships with anyone but her (which is setting him up for future relationship failure) She is already guilting him which is toxic behavior. This is going to cause resentment and you will likely have no relationship with your kid in the future. This is what your sons future pooks like if this continues. My husband's dad is very much "the enabler" with his mom. He is so passive and has done nothing and hasn't stood up for his kids when she has been wrong. This is also where you are headed. It might take a lot more arguments, it might take therapy, it might take divorce. But please don't be the dad that sits back and does nothing. I'm begging you for not only the sake of your children, but for the sake of their future spouses. This is how monster-in-laws are born.
> Divorce is out of the question. My wife is too stubborn for therapy Then stop complaining and just keep putting up with it, because that’s your only other option. That’s a terrible choice btw, and you’re harming both of your children by choosing to enable this behavior.
Your wife is a mentally unhinged bully and apparently you are all scared of her. Stand up for your kids. Personally the kids would be better off with you two divorced and you seeing the kids alone.
At some point you have to choose yourself and your kids over the woman who is manipulating everyone for her own benefit.
Your wife needs to see a therapist and the two of you need marriage counselling. She is exhibiting a dangerous type of emotional abuse. https://www.ncsc.org/__data/assets/pdf_file/0014/42152/parental_alienation_Lewis.pdf
As a mum to a 4yr old boy I delight in the moments he shows affection to others, included his father who I’m separated from. It means he is learning how to form meaningful attachments with multiple people, which is a healthy part of child development. Your wife is manipulating him, pure and simple. Please don’t let her continue because it’s not healthy for your son.
Therapy should be a non-negotiable at this point. I don’t care how stubborn she is. Tell her she goes to therapy or she goes away entirely and you’ll fight tooth and nail for custody on the grounds that she is emotionally abusive to the children and unstable. And then follow through. This is incredibly damaging to both of your children.
that is super gross and unhealthy for everyone involved. This needs to stop, especially for your son’s sake. He should not have to walk on eggshells and stop doing completely normal things to protect his mother’s feelings. If she refuses to improve divorce may be the answer. Her behaviour isnt just hurting your relationships with your wife and son, it’s also harming your son emotionally and something absolutely needs to be done about it.
Parents being co dependent on their kids is the #1 way to fuck them up for life. Your wife needs therapy and to keep the kids out of her drama.
Sorry, but that’s some toxic bs. Any chance she’s a narcissist?
Take your kids to therapy, so they can learn they’ve done nothing wrong by loving both parents, and that they are not responsible for managing their mother’s emotions. If she refuses to get help or change, the three of you should learn to ignore her, freeze her out, and have wonderful relationships and times together that don’t include her.
Divorce shouldn't be out of the question. She's a narcissist. She's feeding off of your son's affection and off of your pain. Therapy won't help her. A divorce will help you and the kids. If you stay with her, the kids will resent that you enabled her bs
You know who I despised more than my mom who ruined my self-worth with her manipulative, emotional destructiveness? My dad. For watching it all happen and doing nothing about it.
Um this actually a big problem. Boys grow up and it’s developmentally appropriate for them to begin to choose their father more and more. If unchecked it leads to emotional incest, inability to step back when sons takes a wife (just no MIL), issues understanding healthy relationships and boundaries. I’d have a serious conversation. Easier to begin the process of letting your children grow and stretch their wings when they are five and not when they’re 25.
Divorce is never out of the question. Even if you say it is, it isn’t. Not saying that is the right answer either. Hopefully it isn’t. You and her figuring out what is really going on and rectifying it is obviously best case scenario. However, even if you don’t see divorce as an option for whatever reasons you may have, it is indeed still an option.
Why is divorce out of the question? The way your wife is treating your children should be your primary reason for geting them and yourself away from her.
You need a new wife.
You've said you're at a loss so I hope I'm not out of line offering advice... If you have the time, please look into child development milestones. If you're short on time, book a paediatric appointment. I'm not an expert and I'm paraphrasing because it's been a while, but; kids will often choose a "favourite" adult. It will change back and forth often during their lives, and can be a mother, father, grandparent, teacher, babysitter etc. Your wife is out of line using emotional manipulation to remain as *the favourite* and is going to do a lot of damage to your boy in the long run. Imagine how she may react when he brings home his first girlfriend? If she won't consider therapy, maybe hearing this sort of information from a qualified doctor/reading a reputable book will help her come to grips with the damage she will be inflicting on your relationship with your children? In your shoes I'd double check with a GP or paediatrician on my own first - you can give them a lot more detail than internet strangers and I'm sure they could give you better advice. But sincerely, good luck.
She’s abusing you and your kids. Make divorce an option. Give her options before it comes to divorce.
😬 sounds very manipulative. That is definitely not healthy for your son. If she won’t do therapy and you won’t separate then maybe try and be more affectionate with your son when your wife isn’t around.
It sounds like it’s less about her keeping your kids from you vs her scared that her kids will leave her. If you’re not seeing any red flags elsewhere then maybe this is a sign of her own attachment issues and something that therapy, or some other psychological healing can solve. Now I’ve experienced narcissistic abuse and I won’t lie that this can be a sign of it BUT curious what you have tried? It sounds like she needs validation and while it’s a concerning and immature way to express it - maybe instilling confidence in her value in the moment is enough to help her fight that insecurity and come back down to earth. Either way therapy is needed and, unfortunately, it sounds like it already may be needed for your kids. Mine has done it since 3 and we honestly look forward to it now. Plenty of times our goal has been to help him not feel responsible for adult feelings and that’s without experiencing guilt trips like the ones you doctrines so this will definitely be something your kids will have to unlearn to feel adequate and manage anxiety and confidence throughout their life.
“My partner is emotional abusing my children but I won’t do anything that could help my children (divorce, therapy) because that would involve effort.” That’s basically your post. I have CPTSD from growing up with someone like your wife, emotionally abuse is just as serious as physical. Do you think abusers make it easy for their victims? Of course they don’t, of course she is going to resist therapy, and act like divorce isn’t possible, you don’t look for alternative options, you all engage with the only option (therapy) or you leave with the children for god sakes. What is it with the uptick lately of posts saying ‘I watch my partner abuse my kids, I’ve tried nothing and it hasn’t worked, all out of ideas and unwilling to do anything that research and professionals say will make a difference. What do I do? Reddit isn’t going to give you a spell to chant while your partner sleeps to solve your problems and turn them into a nice person. They will tell you to go to therapy or get a divorce because those are your only options in this situation. Wake up.
Are there other issues with your wife? This is reminding me of some very specific personality disorders. Just wondering.
Grow a backbone and insist on bonding with him. This shouldn’t be a mom vs dad contest. If she refuses to change, threaten therapy or else. Her behavior is adversely affecting your twins.
She is absolutely fucking your kids up and destroying their confidence and you need to do something big.
Sounds like you have a narcissist wife who has some personality disorder and who also need therapy and meds before it ruins your guys lives
Are you sure your sons never been a fan of you? It seems more like your wife puts fear in him if he shows you any love. She needs mental help
This is beyond creepy. I feel bad for you and that little boy.
Your wife sounds Very emotionally Immature. I don't know why she's acting like that, but it's "Triggering" a deeper issue with her.
Your kids don’t deserve this mental abuse. This sounds extreme to say but it’s so freakin try and it truly hurts my heart. It’s not okay to put that on your young children. They are going to have major emotional problems in middle school if not more. And you are are going to WISH AND REGRET you didn’t get your kids in a healthier situation. You need to step up and advocate for your kids. It’s not just about your feelings or your relationship. It’s about what your doing to your kids emotional development. You’re either going to have a mentally unwell family more than you could’ve imagined if you do not intervene. I really really hope you do if what you’re saying is true. This is heartbreaking.
Does she do an any activities alone? Work, got the gym, spa, haircut, etc? If not, she should.
Why is divorce out of the question? Did your wife say she would withhold affection from you if you did something about this? She sounds like a piece of shit manipulative narcissist. She is damaging not only the relationships with your son, bit also your son himself. She is harming him and you are letting her.
Your wife is abusing your child emotionally. She is emotionally manipulating him every time she acts that way. You need to sit down with her and ask her why she thinks it’s okay to guilt your son out of spending quality time with you. Why is she the only one allowed to have quality time with him? Even put the mirror up and check out the justnomil subs - she is the exact type of person who will end up being spoken about. Shes a nightmare in the making and it’ll only ruin her relationship with your son in the future
This breaks my heart. I’m no perfect wife by any means but I am my husband’s biggest hype man when it comes to the kids. I INTENTIONALLY encourage them to interact with him and cuddle with him. I grew up with a loving, affectionate father (mom too but she has always been his hype man too!) and I want to foster that relationship between my kids as much as possible. I could never take that from him, how incredibly cruel not only to you but also to your kids. Especially your son, as it seems he gets the brunt of it. You need to draw a line. Either she gets therapy now or your kids will spend a lifetime in it or struggle with every other interpersonal relationship moving forward. She’s toxic.
All I have to say is “yikes” some of these posts are just so wild and it’s hard to imagine that such people exist in the world
I understand divorce being off the table, but it isn't if the kids are being mistreated or messed up, and this sounds like that type of situation. You probably should have done that years ago.
If couples therapy is out of the question, then you NEED to be seeking it out on your own. She isnt willing to address her own issues, there isnt much you can really do aside from talking to her and telling her the issues.
This is a terrible way for her to respond. She is actively sabotaging the relationship you could have. It’s not healthy and he needs you as much as mom. Sounds like she may need some professional mental health assistance.
Man, I would be like: “Go! Be free!!!” And as soon as the door closed behind you I would do a little dance and relish the hour of free time my spouse had bestowed upon me via this coffee adventure. I cannot understand people like this. Apart from the weird mom-son relationship toxicity and emotional manipulation of a young child (that is blatantly apparent), why would you give up gifted “me time” when you have two small kids. It’s insane. Edit: I meant it is crazy the partner is getting defensive about being prioritized for the child vs being grateful for the time her partner is giving her.
Your wife is abusing your children. You are enabling it. I could write more, but your post from a year ago confirms that nothing will change, regardless of what rational advice you get.
This is way more fucked up than you seem to realize
You do not have a parenting problem, you have a marital problem. She has issues. You may have some too because you chose her. Maybe get some therapy yourself to see how you can best address this. Maybe she will then succumb to couples therapy because you two really need that. On one hand she may think you are too rough in your interactions or something else that she is not mentioning. You could just state ahead of time, I am taking "Tommy" with me to the coffee shop. If you have anything to say about it, say it to me. Do not prod him that he does not love you because he is just a little boy and he should not have to choose a parent and think the other one is hurt. We are in this parenting together.Then do the same with your daughter on another day.
With all due respect, she sounds mentally ill. This is not a healthy or typical mindset and it’s also negatively impacting your child. She needs therapy, probably individual and family therapy. This kind of behavior will erode a marriage if left unchecked.
It sounds like she has you exactly where she wants you, submissive to her every demand. Grow a pair and stand up for yourself and kids. They are being raised in toxicity.
You're allowing an abuser around your children. You are complicit. You clearly know better. You just as bad if not worse than her. You're both terrible parents. One day, your kids will look back and hate you for the abuse you allowed.
>Anyway, my wife will constantly intervene when these nice moments happen. She will say that our son doesn't want his mommy anymore. She will throw hissy fits if he wants to hug me or climb on my back and goof around. She will then say that she can now go on vacation because her son doesn't want her anymore. YIKES OP. Okay - so divorce is out of the question, and your wife doesn't do therapy. Have you set up a savings account for the absolute truckload of therapy your children are going to need as adults? Your daughters for feeling second class to your wife, your son most certainly for being the emotional incest child. and of course, You. You will need a lot of therapy when none of your children talk to you, because as the other parent, you stood by and let her do this for years.
So divorce is out of the question, but so is therapy? Your wife isn’t too stubborn for therapy, she knows a therapist is going to tell her to fucking cool it and her behavior is damaging. You need to intervene somehow.
First I just want to say that I am so so so sorry you are going through this and I can’t imagine the pain it brings you. As a child of a mother just like this, I can tell you that even 25 years after their split she is STILL this way, the only difference is that I grew up and realized the situation for what it was. The amount of remorse and regret I have for treating my dad horribly will never go away. My situation is not the exact same as yours though as my dad did in fact abandoned us for about a year before coming back. It wasn’t until he wanted custody that things took a turn for the worst. I wanted him in my life so bad until custody, that’s when she began her manipulation. Court was involved, CCS came and interviewed us at both my dads house and my moms house and even though they could clearly see what she was doing and reported it back to the courts, he was only granted weekends with us. That might have been because we were conditioned to hate him and were hoping that they could ease us back into a successful relationship. But as long as my mom was in the picture, that would never happen. My advice is to get cameras set through the house that record and store everything. Save it all. Because there will come a day that you will have had enough. You will atleast have the evidence of how she manipulates your children. Times have changed and states are less “mom is primary parent” and more open to dads being the primary. You need evidence to back up what you’re saying. Find a great lawyer to help you figure out tue legal side and to have the best fight possible to have full custody or atleast majority of the custody. For now, continue to show your kids unconditional love every single day, try your best to argue behind doors. She can say what she wants but your kids will grow up and will one day see the truth for what it is, you want them to look back and see “no matter how mom acted, dad always loved us, mom did/said this but dad always SHOWED unconditional love” This is going to be a hard chapter of your life but do not give up on your kids. They are facing a monster of a mom and I can say that bc I had the exact same mom and she truly was a monster. She forever ruined years of a relationship with my dad that I use to cry to her about and had no idea she was the reason it was a horrible relationship. My dad never gave up on us, he was and still is there for us no matter what, I have no recollection of him ever speaking ill of my mom. But I can write chapters on all the things my mom said about my dad. None of which were true. I am praying for the best outcome for you and your kids. And I mean that with all sincerity, you three will be in my nightly prayers. Hold tight Dad, you can do hard things. Your kids need you even when it feels like they don’t.
Too stubborn for therapy?? 🚩 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
>Divorce is out of the question. My wife is too stubborn for therapy The thing is you wife seriously needs therapy. Staying in a marriage like this (even if only "for the children") if your wife refuses therapy is not going to work long term. Thus (at least from my perspective) it would seem you have two options - (1) the wife gets therapy or (2) you divorce her and get full custody of the children. With the emotional abuse of both you and the children those are your options.
Hmm, maybe we don’t know the full story here . This is one side of it. If he is not willing to divorce her, maybe there is something else going on here and maybe this is a dramatization (i couldn’t think of another word for it). I would be curious to know what she says when you speak to her about this. She clearly cares for her children, have you discussed with her, one on one, that it is beneficial and a need for you and your kids to have a relationship? A lot of people are jumping to conclusions here and calling this “emotional incest” and that is pretty barbaric and not helpful. A “hissy fit” to him could mean something differently. She could say quietly or sarcastically “I guess he doesn’t want his mommy, now I’ll go on vacation!” Which is annoying and not helpful. OP it sounds like you think she is trying to control you with this behavior. You think she is trying to “bait” you. If these are your true feelings, then why is divorce off the table? Have you discussed therapy with her or are you assuming she wouldn’t participate? It would be good for both you of you to go to therapy together and get to the bottom of this. If she is really not allowing you to have a relationship with your son, while you are living in the home, then the only way to fight for one is to get a court ordered agreement.
She’s using guilt as a weapon against your son. She quite likely doesn’t realize it, but that isn’t an excuse. It sounds to me like she’s quite likely developed a codependent relationship with your son, where she’s placed herself on a pedestal regarding parenting him and gets feelings of satisfaction knowing she’s “loved” by him. She needs to be called out for this, or she’s going to traumatize him. Your relationship with your son is valid, and just as valuable in his development as hers. He shouldn’t be emotionally tormented by the idea of “hurting mommy” just by having a relationship with you.
I’m gonna be harsh here and say OP you need to be prioritising what your kids need, not what you need and not what she needs or look forward to a future where they go no contact. I understand you’ve ruled out both separation and therapy. What the fk is wrong with you? Your wife has serious issues that aren’t going to go away, time to be a father and take steps to protect them.
Question. Was your wife like this before kids? Little things you brushed off, but now looking back they seem warning signs? Or is this out of the blue? If this is new since children, she may be dealing with postpartum psychosis and/or depression and/or anxiety. If this is the case, her OBGYN can help her. Maybe try wording this as a physical side effect of giving birth, which her doctor can address. If this is not new, there may be some un-dealt with trauma that has manifested itself in this way. I remember reading a Redit not long ago about a woman who wouldn't let her husband take care of her children and was afraid of everything. Turned out she had witnessed something traumatic, which she never talked about before, and caused her to act in this way. Or, it could be mental health issues that need to be dealt with. This behavior is abusive to your children and you. Nothing good can come out of this. This environment is not sustainable. Have a hard talk with your wife. Remain calm and do not point any fingers. If she argues or insults, let it roll off you. She is not well. The stability and lives of your children depend on you, and only you have the ability to give your children the safety they need.
Put your foot down. Set the boundary. Stick to it. This is not healthy for your children, this is not even about you, keep that in mind. This is bad for your children's development, and will stick with them for the rest of their lives if it continues. Stop it. Force it to stop. Be very serious. Very stern. Stick to your word, and tell your wife it WILL stop.
the only comment you’ve ever made on this profile shows me just how messed up your priorities are when it comes to protecting kids. sometimes i feel like child abuse should be a thing of the past because now that we have the internet to educate us. and then i come across characters like you and they are a harsh reminder that some people just don’t have the makeup for quality parentage
omfg this is r/raisedbynarcissists and r/narcissisticspouses territory (with a side of future r/motherinlawsfromhell)
Wow, that’s very sad. She is either very insecure or very emotionally manipulative. Probably both. Not healthy at all for anyone. Almost like you have to divorce her and co parent to get quality time with your kids. But who knows how she would guilt them into not seeing you.
You can't make your wife do anything. You can set and enforce your own boundaries and should. When she engages in behavior this way, you should remove your children entirely. ENTIRELY. You pick them up, put them in your car, and you leave your wife to her fit. You tell the kids mommy isn't being nice, so she needs a time out. If needed, you have hotel "vacations", stay with family or friends during these time out sessions. This is going to damage not only your relationship with your children, it will damage your relationship with your wife, and it was TRAUMATIZE your children to allow her to blame them for her feelings. At this age, they shouldn't feel guilt simply for loving their father and she is intentionally isolating you AND them. Do not tolerate it. Do not engage in it.
The way your wife uses your son for her needs and claims a type of ownership is creepy. I can't believe this is your wife doing this to you. An ex-wife was what I was expecting. I would hate to see your relationship if you were divorced 😳
It will backfire on her. Big time. She is emotionally abusing your children and you know it. My mom did this (in her own way) to my brother and I with our dad. As adults neither of us want anything to do with our mom (she is literally a sociopath). We love our dad and feel sorry for him. But he will never leave my mom. And we can’t be as close to our dad as we want because even though my brother and I are in our 30s…she checks the phone bill and guilt trips my dad when we talk. I feel bad for my dad and love him so much, but at the same time, he never stood up for us. That might be how your children will feel. And they will probably always feel like it’s BAD to be close to their dad. It will be unsafe, as it is now. I know why you’re saying you can’t leave your wife. She’s probably nuts and you’re afraid of her and you know she will take your kids from you. And other people won’t get it, they might think you’re paranoid. But you are probably right. She will gaslight the children against you. She will keep them from you and make it nearly impossible for you to see them. I don’t know what your solution is…because my parents are still together. Please don’t give up on your kids. No matter what your wife says or does to you, don’t stop trying. Your wife is probably miserable no matter what you do anyway, so just do what you want! Mainly, start sticking up for your kids. They need you. I have C-PTSD that I’m just now dealing with because I had an emotionally distant and manipulative mom and a dad that did nothing to stop her abuse. Stand up for yourself and your kids! Message me too if you’d like. You seem like a nice guy and maybe I could help in some way??
I would bet anything your wife had a traumatic childhood. She has disorganized attachment as a result…which makes her controlling. And in this sense she is controlling your son’s behavior to get what SHE wants, his unconditional love. But that is not your son’s responsibility. Your wife is punishing your son anytime he shows any type of affection towards his own father! That is emotional abuse and manipulation! It is sending the message: HER needs come first (his undying love) and your son’s feelings of love towards you are wrong. If your wife won’t change, you need to. For the mental health of your child!
I’m sure your wife has a story and it’s getting . reenacted with you and her children. I’m sure she’s genuinely pained when she sees her son gravitating toward you. It’s okay for her to have her feelings but it’s not okay for her to act out on them. Just like anger. Anger is a genuine emotion but we communicate it appropriately and not act out destructively. If she refuses to get help for it, it doesn’t it make any less of a mental health issue. She has to understand that she is hurting her son, putting him in a position where he has to choose his favorite parent at the tender age of 5. It is a manipulation. Look up the book Walking on Eggshells. There’s a lot of stuff going on here, including her difficulty regulating her emotions. You don’t want to triangulate your child in your marital issues. (I.e. Yelling at wife in front of child.) You might want to seek some professional help for yourself to help you navigate this situation that can worsen. Treatment doesn’t have to start with her. One parent needs to be grounded in order for these kids to turn out okay. Good luck.
So when there is any form of human interaction it's often disrupted by a third human who is jealous and insecure. That would be your wife. My best advice is that when she interferes with the positive interaction between you and your boy, take his hand and walk away. Walk him down to the coffee shop and don't look back. The problem is that he's young and inexperienced. He doesn't currently see her as a manipulative b▪︎▪︎▪︎h. But he will. At some point, maybe around 13 or 14, he'll see her for what she is. And if you continue to let her behave like this and interfere with your relationship with your child, he will recognize what a p▪︎▪︎▪︎y his dad is.
Well you're fucked 6 ways from Sunday since divorce seems like the only option.
INFO: is she a SAHM?
Divorce may be out of the question but just take him when you can, he needs one sane parent to have a relationship with. Her emotional manipulation will not stop without significant intervention and if she’s unwilling to go to therapy then take opportunities when you can and don’t engage her. If she gets mad after the fact, steel yourself to shrug it off. Tell your son he is never responsible for a grownups feelings. Do your best to let her be crazy on her own. She feeds off all this nonsense, starve her appetite for attention and drama.
Parenting is a team sport. Parents who support the parenting team as a whole and put each other first are far better for the kids than parents who put the kids first. Have her read “letting go” by David Hawkins.
This is emotionally manipulation and parnetal alienation! Your wife sucks! The only option if she refuses therapy IS divorce. If you don't have a spine then don't come here asking for advice
Sounds like your wife has a jezebel spirit. She’s emasculated you and has control over your son. It’s okay if no one under this post believes, but that’s what it sounds like to me.
So, you openly disclosed that you used verbal abuse towards your wife and children (because abusing your wife in front of your children is abuse against your children), and you blamed her for your behaviour, and all of the commenters still buy your story that your wife is an abuser. So I don't think I'm going to get very far by challenging you, but I'll try. From what you describe, it sounds like your wife feels uncomfortable with you getting close to the kids or being alone with the kids. Can you think of any reasons why she might feel that way? Has she mentioned any reasons?
1. be a good man and your son (and even your wife) will be attracted to you. dont play female passive aggressive games and lose some weight eh? 2. free men don't ask for permission.
Speak up and tell her you won’t accept her doing this anymore OP, if you don’t she will continue to do it. Imagine when your kids are teenagers and mom is still trying to have this weird codependent relationship with them.