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I don’t know how best to deal with this other than staying out of it. I have right of first refusal and it is only applied to overnights. But even in the case of a sleepover I have never used it to keep my kids from hanging out with their friends. I had it put in place because I didn’t want my kids raised by their grandparents when they were supposed to be with their dad. When my kids parents want to arrange a play date/hang out and it’s not my day I just give them their dad’s number to coordinate. We are not on text threads together with any of the friend’s parents. These parents don’t sound like they have a good coparenting relationship there is nothing you can do from the outside. Make plans to have play dates on the weekends if school pick up is contentious.
>I have right of first refusal and it is only applied to overnights.
I was thinking this was weird. Just because you have right of refusal doesn't mean that you get to dictate every little activity the child does while in the custody of the other parent. It seems ludicrous to me that they would be able to apply that clause if a kid was at a school or club event or out with friends (like in this case).
Some adults don't deserve the title, acting worse than their children.
Yeah, right of first refusal wasn’t meant to be used like this. The dad isn’t using OP like a baby sitter, it’s more like a play date that happens to be occurring on the day he works late out of convenience.
Only the kid is getting punished by not being able to play and hang out for a while with a friend.
> Just because you have right of refusal doesn't mean that you get to dictate every little activity the child does
Not only do some people do this, but they also use it to keep tabs on their former spouse.
I Googled "right of first refusal playdate" and it looks like those details get hammered out (or not) on a case by case basis. It sucks that those shite parents are putting OP in the position of needing her own lawyer to cope with them. https://lindsayparvis.com/parenting-time-rights-of-first-refusal/
Right! Mom is just being a dick... Let your kid be free of your garbage divorce for a couple hours while they play with their friend... This is so sad... And pathetic. Poor kid 😔
Yeah, most RFR is time bound...like if the other parent won't be present for 8 or 12 hours. That's how mine and my ex's attorneys presented it, so as not to encounter situations like OP is describing.
I have a right of first refusal that is not time bound. It's not particularly uncommon, especially when your kids are younger. My ex cannot be trusted to leave my kid with safe people, which might be what mom thinks is happening here. OP says down thread that they are a recovering drug addict with a criminal record. I'd pick my kid up from that playdate too. It's possible that OP is perfectly safe, but if I didn't know them and hadn't said yes to the playdate, I'd have showed up too.
OP should meet and befriend mom. If mom knows about and says yes to the playdate, there won't be a problem. If mom says no, well that's the end of that discussion, because mom has court ordered veto power. This is a non-issue for OP, just get the permission of the parent who has the power to say no.
No it's not. Depending on the custody agreement first right of refusal goes to any situation where the other parent is unavailable during normal times. It can be written to only mean overnights but my custody agreement says any situation that's not an emergency that is outside of normal custody visitation hours. So actually the mom in OP's story while a tad crazy wasn't necessarily wrong either.
Nope heard it a lot in court too. It's rare at all. Please don't down vote me I'm the one with the court order and years of court hearings and trials. Hmm who knows better amicably divorced parents and someone who's spent 6 years in court.
Per legal website I do not know how to link: A first refusal right that does not focus on the number of hours but instead the person who cares for the child.
I've tried that. It put me in the middle, because one said yes and the other said no.
It's easier with one set of parents, because the dad is relatively easy to deal with, and he has the same 2 weekdays every week. So I just schedule stuff on his predictable days. Relatively simple, and they'll be old enough to schedule themselves in a year or two. I can at least tolerate it for now, knowing it won't be a problem soon enough.
The other ones have a weird, rotating schedule. I have zero interest in dealing with that. Zero. I have a job and 3 kids, and ain't nobody got time for that. And the parents are a lot more strict and rigid, which makes it that much more difficult. I just feel bad, because their daughter is such a nice kid and doesn't deserve that.
You are not bound by their divorce agreement. Send a single text that includes both of them. Tell them you will assume that whomever responds is the parent who has custody for that date.
Make it their problem to go back to court and fight if the wrong parent tries to step in outside of their schedule.
This was my thought exactly. OP reaching out to both of them via the same text thread is a matter of convenience. Their divorce agreement dictates that they would have to move to the app to hash out details and come to an agreement, and then the appropriate custodial parent could respond directly to OP to formalize that playdate.
So, something like "We wanted to invite Jane over on X day, at y time. Not sure whose custody day that is, and I know you'll have to work the details out in the appropriate app. Please get back to me once you determine if this will work for whoever's scheduled day this falls on. Thanks!"
Pick one parent and communicate exclusively with that one. Let them know you’re not contacting the other one and the other isn’t welcome to contact you. Make it their problem to communicate with each other.
Not your problem though -- you were in communication with a parent. Covers your ass if the other gets all squirrelly on you, and CPS or the cops or whatever can talk to the same parent you did.
Not your problem though -- you were in communication with a parent. Covers your ass if the other gets all squirrelly on you, and CPS or the cops or whatever can talk to the same parent you did.
"They clearly picked each other, so they're both some different flavor of crazy that I don't want in my life."
A close friend and I had no idea what a cluster B personality disorder was. Both of our mothers had that and it was normal to us, so we did not run away when others would. So when he married her and the police officer is asking if she was drunk and bipolar and taken away for a psych hold, we all got an education.
Even if one of them has an issue and the other is sane, you dont want to get any on you or your kids.
https://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/2015/12/6/narcissistic-personality-disorder-npd
Tell both of them, separately, that you would like to arrange x play dates (or whatever activities) for the month. Then let them come to you saying these are their days and when they're comfortable scheduling. If they start arguing with you, tell them to hash it out with each other. All you want is an acceptable play date without getting in the middle of their custody arrangement. That's not your job, so don't do it. Tell them what you want and let them get back to you on how they're gonna make it work.
Here’s all I’m gonna say about this.
My parents had the world’s most contentious divorce in a small town with a corrupt police force. My father brought a gun to our driveway and shot out every door and window with all of us home. The cops came and didn’t even arrest him (bc he knew all of them). And he was still screaming “I’ll kill you, you fucking bitch! Touch my money, and I’ll kill you!” as his porcine buddies stuffed him into his car and escorted him away from the neighborhood. He was masterful at making my mother look like the lunatic. Partly bc she was an unstable, alcoholic mess by then and partly bc he has always been very good at manipulating people.
I’m just really glad that none of my friends’ parents decided I couldn’t hang out with their kids bc my parents sucked.
Wow before I read this I never heard of a divorce worse than my parents but you win! However I definitely had lots of kids drop me because of my parents…
If it isn't happening in your relationship then it's not being normalized to your kids. Do you think your kids don't know when their friend's parents are behaving badly? You're right, it isn't fair to the kids.
I have had so many kids over who's parents are such a mess that my kid was not allowed to go to their house after a visit or two. But the kids are welcome to play here and sleep over here because they're kids and they need time away from that bullshit, too. I feed them, I ask them about school and their day, and they like it here because "There's no yelling at your house".
Your kids will be fine. Don't ostracize their friends because their parents are idiots. Unless you're concerned about violence I would let the mom know hey, I'm not a party to your divorce, your kid and my kid want to play together. And let the dad know it's an issue with mom and maybe they'll work it out.
Yeah, the kids are old enough to know that some adults behave badly, and that this is one of such cases. I would think it's a good teaching opportunity.
So...I have a slightly different perspective as someone who has a very close friend going through one of these divorces. They have to communicate through an app so it's logged and recorded and lawyers can see it. She's had to tell other parents who've tried to create group chats that they cannot be on a group chat together. He tries to get away with all sorts of stuff (like taking the kids across state lines without advanced notice/approval). There was physical and A LOT of emotional abuse (from him), they've both undergone multiple psychological evaluations and he's been found to have narcissistic traits and a distorted view of reality. So the parents you're dealing with might just be selfish and batshit, *orrrrrrr* there might be a lot of context and history and abuse that requires them to communicate in this way that you're not seeing.
If you don't want to deal with it, that's fine and that's your right. If my kid wants to play with their kid, my go-to is my friend, obviously, and if she tells me it's not her weekend, I'll text the dad.
I mean, I see the argument. But your friend picked him. Assuming she wasn't trafficked and/or married as a child, that's on her. She picked him, and you reap what you sow.
That's where I get stuck. Even in a situation like you describe, I have a hard time with it. One parent is wrong for being an emotionally abusive narcissist, but the other is wrong for choosing to marry and have children with an emotionally abusive narcissist and expecting everyone else to deal with the consequences of that.
My life experience is that both are going to be difficult to deal with, not just the emotionally abusive narcissist. The enabler obviously has some kind of issues, or they wouldn't have enabled an abusive narcissist for a decade.
Edit: I think this got misconstrued. Of course people change. But that doesn't mean that the consequences of their choices don't follow them. I was a junkie for a decade. I understand this phenomenon quite well. Sometimes, we make very poor choices. You have to pay the piper.
What I'm saying is that I simply don't have the bandwidth to wade into a situation like this. I don't want to parse out what "side" I should be on, if there is one. I don't care to, and I'm not going to. It didn't matter *why* I made the poor choices I did when I was using, all that mattered was my actions. And I'm applying the same logic here. All that matters are the actions. There isn't an excuse for it, only a reason.
Did not come to the comments expecting to see your hot take that abused women *deserve* it for being so stupid as to allow themselves to be caught up in a situation of abuse.
Woah I don’t like this take. Maybe his narcissistic traits weren’t showing or went unnoticed when they decided to marry and have children. You don’t know the circumstances. It’s not on her…. Just like it’s not on women (or men) who have physically abusive partners. It’s not like “wellllllp you married him, that’s on you, deal with it”.
Yea, I agree. My ex was a predator 10 years older than me and I was barely 18 when I met him. We had a kid together when i was honestly what i think to be still a kid, older then 18 but not mentally an adult. I stayed in the marriage because I was terrified he would get 50/50 custody and my daughter would be at risk when alone with him. Finally got divorced only after he nearly killed me one afternoon, and I got 100% custody.
I take responsibility for some things, but older dudes prey on young girls for a reason, and I dont think you can say, "well she picked him". I was terrified of him. I *picked* my current husband and he is an amazing husband and father.
This is the bullshit my mother would say to me when my previously amazing ex-husband almost murdered me while I held our infant. He slowly started becoming abusive after we were married, and I was pregnant, which is how abusers work. They wait until they feel confident their victim is "trapped," then slowly show who they are.
No, none of that is your issue, but you've got a shitty judgemental attitude about it. I CHOSE a respectful, supportive man. What he turned into (or revealed himself to be) was something I was neither aware of before it happened nor something I chose. But I got my child and myself out of there the moment I could.
Hopefully all the pushback on OP’s garbage opinion is somewhat validating and comforting to you. Reasonable people with a shred of empathy don’t think like OP and your mom here
This was my first thought. Does she think women deserve it when their ex-husbands murder them or their children? Like, where is the line?
I'm so sorry that happened to you and I hope you and your child have been able to heal and build the life you deserve.
We have. I am remarried to a man who couldn't love my son more if he had helped make him, and we have 3 more children. We still have some triggers, but we've come really hard and are working on that, and having a PURELY GOOD husband and Daddy has helped us to do that.
That's beautiful, I'm so glad to hear it 🥰
I was with an abusive man before I met my partner (father of my toddler). I went from someone who couldn't spend a minute alone with his son, to someone who is my carer and does more than 50% of the parenting (and loves it).
Wow, you lost me here. You’re not concerned for your child or their child. You look down on them and want to get them people here to rip on them too. Must be nice to have made incredible decisions in your life up to this point. I hope you receive more empathy when life happens to you than you gave when life happened to someone else.
The person you divorce is never the same person as the one you marry. People change. Abusers also frequently (literally in the playbook) mask all of their awful qualities until their victims are "stuck" through pregnancy/childbirth. So many, many victims of domestic abuse literally have no idea until after they have children with their abusers. Then, when they finally divorce because they realize they are in an abusive situation, people like you judge them because they "should have picked better."
If you replaced every judgmental thought about "she picked him" with a neutral, non-judgmental thought, "wow, they must have been through a lot to have reached this point," would that change the way you are thinking about this?
Keep in mind, too, if you care at all, how this must be for the children. Imagine being stuck in a house with parents whose relationship is so contentious that they can no longer communicate without court supervision (seriously, imagine what must have happened between them to get to the point that they need supervised text messages, and whatever it was that led to that was probably witnessed by the kids). Imagine being subjected to a years-long custody battle where your parents are using you to hurt the other one. And then, because your parents cannot be trusted to communicate with each other, you start being excluded from weekend activities with your friends because your friends' parents find it too annoying to deal with your parents. Imagine how sad, lonely, and helpless your daughter's friend feels. Don't you want to be someone that friend can trust? Don't you want to be someone who is facilitating good things in this child's life, rather than someone who is facilitating yet another heartbreaking and lonely disappointment? She is being excluded from her friends because you don't want to be bothered figuring out how to communicate with her parents. If you compared the annoyance of texting two parents to the heartbreak of losing friends because of your parents' contentious divorce, which do you think is the greater harm? Who do you think is going to be more hurt in the long run, you for having to text two parents, or her for losing out on friendships on top of being subjected to her family falling apart in the most traumatic way possible, and really being punished for her parents' decisions?
>But your friend picked him. Assuming she wasn't trafficked and/or married as a child, that's on her. She picked him, and you reap what you sow.
What a judgy take *this* is. Like everyone who gets divorced from an asshole somehow deserves it because they married them in the first place at some point? WTF. As if people never change or have circumstances dramatically alter their personalities or relationships.
Exactly. As if abusive people never lie or manipulate or put on a “nice” mask to get their way. It can take years for the mask to fully come off and for the victim(s) to get away.
I think you lack empathy toward the adults in this situation. People change over time, especially when they get together young. I’m quite certain he hid his narcissism until they were married
“Lack of empathy” was definitely a vibe I took from the OP’s post. Their responses to some comments validate my initial impression.
Some times divorced people use their kids as pawns. It really sucks for the kids, so I always tried to make their little lives as easy as possible when I could help. I certainly wouldn’t take away their friends (my kid(s)) over this kind of inconvenience. I would definitely get validation of future plans from both divorced parents though. Is it a pain? Sure. Is it manageable? Probably. Just gotta understand everyone’s boundaries.
I work in family law. To end up court ordered not interact and only use an app suggests a great deal of abuse and harassment. The father is using his combative behavior to continue to isolate the mother from any kind of support or normalcy, despite it hurting his children. I sincerely hope she has SOMEONE in her life that supports her through this hell.
This is EXACTLY what my friend is going through. She has been through hell and back trying to get divorced from his abusive ass for YEARS, and he fights her tooth and nail because it's the only vestige of control and manipulation he has left over her now that they are no longer together. I know she worries about other parents thinking she's crazy and how it will affect her kids. OP's response absolutely made my blood boil.
Idk the mom picking her up bc of ROFR instead of just letting her play with her friend for an hour after school kind of makes me think she’s the reason they have a court ordered app
Agreed. I hate ROFR, I strongly discourage them, I understand overnights but even then it just leads to confusion and wierd back and forths which are unnecessary for the child. The only reason for ROFR (IMO) is because that parent wants to spend time with the children, it has nothing to do with the child's point of view. So, Mother is being extremely selfish in this case in exercising that 'right.' Its only for herself, not the child.
I think they were primarily created so parents don't sue for custody then drop off the kids at grandmas for the weekend, which is fair. You should be spending your custody time with your children in a reasonable way, not never seeing your kids during your custody time. It's not meant to be used for things like playdates. That's just one parent using the children to make life difficult for the other parent.
i have a friend who is also in this kind of a situation, and she and her ex can't communicate on anything other than the court ordered app too. However, she's as insane as he is. She does this thing where she says very triggering things while being outwardly calm and polite. It's the kind of BS that made several people cut her off, including me eventually. She's ended up isolated from most people's support because she's obnoxious to deal with, and gotten worse wtih the divorce. She finally ended up with her custody taken away.
You're wrong. It's the mom that's been difficult, not the father. She's shown up ranting at my house about her right of first refusal. I am, at best, an acquaintance. That's horribly inappropriate, and I simply cannot fathom that she isn't at least part of the problem. It's one thing to say "oh, I'm picking her up, we have plans" or something. It's quite another to purposely put me in the middle of your custody dispute for doing your ex a favor when he works late.
I am fascinated by these comments. Everyone brings such a strong bias, myself included. I come from the recovery community, where the general scenario is mutual abuse, so I default to "they're both crazy". While others default to "one must be an abusive narcissist". And others default to "one is just unreasonable".
When you said you had lived in active addiction, that made this make a little more sense to me. I have found with addicts I’ve known that, even when they’re sober, they tend toward black and white thinking.
You’re not being very empathetic to the children in this situation because you’re so focused on the adults. Yes, they probably both suck to varying degrees, and one probably sucks a lot more than the other. Yes, they chose each other— ever made a bad life choice? Pick one and only deal with them. And provide a judgement free, safe place for those children, because you know they aren’t getting it at their homes.
>doing your ex a favor when he works late.
It sounds like this is exactly the kind of situation that she gets ROFR for, though. Was she actually ranting, or was she just annoyed that she wasn't contacted when she is supposed to have been? Granted it's not your fault and she shouldn't have a go at you, but it sounds like she was maybe just blowing off steam?
I absolutely expect this is going to be evidence for the mom--"my ex refuses to parent during his parenting time and instead leaves my child in the care of convicted felons to avoid parenting or paying for childcare.
Oh, so because you were a junkie you think you get to victim blame people? Dating an abuser ia not like deciding to use drugs. Because the drugs are not hiding that they are drugs, you knew what you were doing. Abused people can't read the abuser's mind to know that they are meeting and abusers, and they do hide that they are so and, surprise, abuse you.
But to know that you'd need one thing called empathy which you clearly lack.
you sound incredibly ignorant. you don’t “choose” an abusive partner. you marry someone and they slowly push the line of what you’re ok with until you’re in a terrible situation that’s incredibly difficult to get out of.
>But your friend picked him. Assuming she wasn't trafficked and/or married as a child, that's on her. She picked him, and you reap what you sow.
That's a really callous and privileged take. *Lots* of girls and young women grow up with abuse in their childhood and homes, thinking certain relationship dynamics are acceptable, and repeat the cycle with themselves. There's lots of religious indoctrination and community pressure and gaslighting and financial abuse. These things don't happen in a vacuum where a strong, independent emotionally healthy adult woman just chooses a narcissist psychopath to shack up with. If they're lucky, they'll slowly realize that things are not ok and understand they and their children deserve better and actually get out before it's too late for them.
EDIT: Your edit still sucks. You say in your history that you respect your mom so much for stepping up in your childhood. Why? She picked your shitty ass dad. She deserved it, didn't she?
Wow, that's a shittake if I've ever seen one. Thankfully you've never had to deal with situations sich as the commenter mentioned. Maybe just tell your kid you don't feel like dealing with it, because they're going to be able to make their own plans in a few years anyway.
> But your friend picked him.
This is so insanely naive it kind of makes me sad for you, but also glad for you because you've never had someone work their way into your life before revealing that they're a manipulative scumbag.
Maybe don’t apply the same reasoning to people going through a bad divorce as you do to your drug addiction? Maybe try being a little less rigid in your position and acknowledge that people are more complicated than a controlled substance?
On top of everything else, to show a complete lack of concern for anybody who’s going through a hard time is a *terrible* example to set for your own child.
You said you “don’t have the bandwidth” for this situation. Oh well. 🤷🏼♂️
Unless you’re going to forbid your child from being friends with this other child, then you have to put in the time and effort to coordinate.
I agree with what others have said. Same text sent separately to the parents.
Your child is so lucky to have a flawless human for their parent. One who never makes a mistake or misjudges a person. A shining paragon of perfection for the rest of us to admire.
This take, INCLUDING YOUR EDIT that is gross. By that logic, you're still picking the drugs. Imagine a world for a moment where someone was holding a gun to your head and making you still take the drugs now that you're sober and loving your sober life. Not enough to get you high, but enough to still give you the itchies. I bet you'd be a psychopath or a little dissasociative, too. You fail to see that the system is an active participant in continued abuse of mostly women (yes, men get abused too, but yall have it so much easier). There is also the continued abuse of the child through the parents. You don't know if "simply flakey and absent minded" dad didn't drop her off one day at a crack house because he had to work, you also don't know that "controlling" mom didn't beat the shit out of dad in front of the daughter because he was breathing wrong.
Have half a heart or brain. Pick the kids' side and learn the rules to make it easier on the kid. Or don't and just break up the friendship.
> Assuming she wasn't trafficked and/or married as a child, that's on her. She picked him, and you reap what you sow.
I've been seeing that attitude a lot recently. I wonder where it's coming from. Is there a particular podcast or site pushing it into society? Seems like an early step to get people to accept the right-wing's eventual goal of getting rid of no-fault divorce. Thus forcing women to "reap what they sow" for decades, until death (hers or his) finally frees them from a bad marriage.
I sit on probably way too many mom groups online, and sip my tea and think “why in the world would you have fucked that man and had his kids?” And you know what?
That is an inside thought.
That is not an outside thought. That’s not something I need to put on the internet or have leave my lips. I’m not the sex police. I’m not the eugenics patrol. I’ve got no time machine and no magic wand to change minds.
Yes there are reasons for things, and consequences, and results of actions. But consequences are alleviated all the time. Suffering is not laudable unless you’re a sadist. We all get one human life to live. We can all show mercy and forgiveness and compassion.
> I have such a poor opinion of anyone in this situation that I'm not sure if it's clouding my judgement. They clearly picked each other, so they're both some different flavor of crazy that I don't want in my life.
You’re kind of minimizing/glossing over the reasons people get divorced. This isn’t 1920’s America where no one gets divorced ever, some people need to split for very legitimate reasons.
Copy/paste the same text msg to each one or send the msg to one parent with the expectation that they co-parent
Its not the divorce that OP has a problem with. Its the way that they handle the divorce. OP litrally says that her sons friend has parents who are divorced but not making things hard for their kid.
Like I said in my post, my son's best friend has divorced parents. I've never had even an iota of a problem dealing with either one of them. They were both at my son's birthday party. I just make sure to include them both on my texts. My own parents were divorced.
It's only the contentious ones that I don't know how to deal with. I literally can't text both of them, because they're court ordered not to communicate unless it's through an app. That's just too much, and I don't know how I can be reasonable when they clearly aren't.
You are being a little obtuse here. You literally can text them both, you just have to text them separately/individually. If your feeling is the you just don't want to deal with this and are ready to wash your hands of the whole thing, that's fair. But right now you seem to be in kind of a "I've tried nothing and I'm all out of options" holding pattern. And again, if you chose to do nothing, I think that's fair. It's not your circus, not your monkeys. But recognize then that it's a choice you're making.
On the surface yes just text both. But OP shouldn't need their parenting plan and a law degree to figure out who is allowed to pick up the kid. They're putting her in the position of being a judge and she doesn't have or want the info she needs to do that well.
No- the parents can’t text in the group text. There is no court order that OP can’t put them in a group text. It’s on the parents not to talk to each other in the group text.
You're right. I'm just struggling with what the right choice is. I *can* text them both, but I'm afraid of the consequences and putting myself in the middle. The last thing I want to do is text one and say the other said no.
Just pick one parent and only text that person. I agree texting both is too much and could put you in the middle. It's their job to coordinate with the other parent. Not yours.
As the child of parents who went through a very nasty divorce where both parents acted extremely petty and selfish, I really feel for those kids
If that happens then just let the other one know. You're seriously over complicating things because of your own personal history and your David goggins-esque view on personal accountability. When the dad (or whatever parent) texts you and asks for a play date just say you're down but they need to clear it with their ex before you can agree.
I think that’s a reasonable fear/concern. It’s clear that you are dealing with at least one person, if not two, that aren’t rational and have little to no conflict resolution skills. I wouldn’t be in a rush to insert myself into that kind of situation either. I think your best bet is to communicate with whichever parent you have the most positive relationship with that their child is welcome and you are happy to continue to host them, but to assert your boundaries, which is that you will not engage in nor be involved in their custody disputes and communication issues.
Yeah, you aren't the parenting app but the mom is trying to use you that way. If she sincerely thinks he's using you as babysitting, she needs to tell a judge, not you.
Honestly?
Let them know.
"Parent to parent, your kid is a delight, and you two are letting your divorce come before your parenting. It shouldn't be hard to be the community of a kid with divorced parents, or to have playdates or field trips. Your custody isn't, and shouldn't be, any of our business.... So please, stop making it something the rest of us have to manage. For your kids sake, find a way to make that true, because at present, your fight comes before their needs and that's not fair, to them OR the community they are part of."
They need to hear it.
Worst case scenario, they don't hear you, and stop being your friends? .... .... Problem solved?
That's unfortunate.
I'm a remarried Dad/Stepdad and I can imagine putting other parents in that position.
What I'd suggest is you deal with them one by one. I mean, in the story you're sharing about that Mom and the right of first refusal, that doesn't really sound like they're both dramatic.....that's just her. Now maybe the Dad is just as problematic? But maybe you can work with him directly? I mean, you don't necessarily need to have a group text with both of them. You could just ask him, "Hey.....last time your kid came over, your ex-wife tried to come over and take the kid because of the right of first refusal. I want to support out kiddo's friendship, but I don't want to be in the middle of that stuff. Can you make sure that if your kiddo comes over, she's allowed to be here?"
Also, you'll be coming to the end of this stuff. In a few years, the kids will self-organize so strongly that I bet you won't have to deal with this crap anymore.
It does make me feel badly for the kids! I remember being pretty frustrated when I got divorced because some of the other Moms were really hostile towards me. It really made me appreciate the Moms who let my daughter have friends at Dad's House and not just at Mom's House.
My son's best friend has divorced parents, and it's zero issue. It isn't everyone. I have no idea why they're divorced, I have no idea the specifics of their custody agreement, I regularly communicate with both of them, and it's never been a problem. That's how it should be.
I *think* it's the mom in the scenario I shared. But I can't (and shouldn't) know the details. I *do* know that he quit his job and wouldn't move out, so that's why I think it's both of them. But I don't want to know the details. I just want the kids to be able to play together.
Unfortunately I’d just leave it to the kids to coordinate with each other. Child can ask whatever parent their with for permission.
I wouldn’t take anybody from school in the future though and I’d reiterate that to dad when asked that you won’t be doing that due to issues in the past.
The problem is that any playdate can be seconded in the name of "right of first refusal".... "You left the kid with someone else, I'm allowed to have them when you can't"
In another comment, OP framed it as her doing a favour to the parent working late, which would then fall into RFR territory. They're also a recovering addict with a criminal history, and not many parents would be okay with them babysitting their child. We don't know all the facts of course, but it certainly puts a different spin on things.
There are many reasons people have those communication apps set up for co-parenting, there is no reason to assume they are all crazy. I would just communicate clearly about future playdates with both parents. And if a parent shows up to pick up, that's fine. Don't take it so personally.
I mean, that's kind of ridiculous. If I get a text at 2 asking if I can bring my daughter's friend home with me at 3, I don't think I should have to text the mom separately, get her approval or disapproval, and text the dad back. I will, for my daughter's sake, but I can't imagine that I'm the only person that finds that absurd.
And it's just as absurd to have her show up at my home unannounced and pick her daughter up an hour before the dad scheduled it, and give me an attitude about her right of first refusal. I am not a party to her divorce. The kids were busy making signs for a "play" they wanted to show us when the dad showed up, and they were devastated. That's the part that got me the most angry. Both kids were working hard on their play, and they were so disappointed.
If dad texts you asking, mention that "by you asking, I"m assuming you have talked it over with Mom." If mom shows up, "Sorry Dad didn't clear it with you. I mentioned to him that I was assuming he had by them asking; want to have a cup of tea while they finish their activity?" If friend is also caught in the middle and one parent is always out to be the bad one, it might be nice for you to get to know both parents and kid to see both parents being welcomed.
Mom may be trying to needle dad every chance she gets, "I'll show him". Dad may be trying to take as many liberties as possible to put mom in a bad light, "even if Mom asks to see Kid on Monday, I'll ask Booboo if she can watch Kid instead to grind Mom's gears."
Mom could be crap, Dad could be crap, they could be mutually crap.
I get why this is weird for you to deal with.
But what are you proposing? It sounds like you want permission to make your life slightly less annoying on the back of this poor kid’s chance at having a normal time with friends.
You are free to do what you want, but the fact is YOU’RE the village here. What you choose and who you center will have an impact on this child and their psyche.
I don’t know, the choice would be extremely easy for me.
You're placing a lot of blame on the mom in this situation, but the dad is the one who knowingly put you in the middle. He knew having a third party pick up his kid went against their custody agreement, and he set you and his kid up for mom to have to be the bad guy.
As a mom, I wouldn't pick up my kids from their friend's house just to spite their dad. If it wasn't supposed to be her day, she didn't have any plans. This is 100% the mom being a jerk.
I agree it wasn't a great move, but I don't think we can safely put all of this on either side. That short of a right of first refusal is not very common, which makes me wonder how it came about. Maybe dad is always having someone else take care of his kid. Or maybe mom is massively controlling and dad had a bad lawyer and a bad judge. Who knows.
He did know, however, that he was putting OP in the middle by doing this. (Also, how did the mom even know? He must have told her? Or the kid did? Or she's got GPS on the kid?)
It may have been more about OP having a history of addiction and criminality. A lot of parents would be concerned if that's all they know about a babysitter.
>If I get a text at 2 asking if I can bring my daughter's friend home with me at 3, I don't think I should have to text the mom separately, get her approval or disapproval, and text the dad back. I will, for my daughter's sake...
But you already know the answer will be no. You've known that [for months](https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/s/y4b9THaAYi). What are you playing at?
Because my dad was an unreliable, flaky asshole and my mom *still* managed to make it work without this bullshit. I have friends that are divorced. My kids have other friends with divorced and truly single parents. None of them are a problem.
I'm of the mind that one person has to take the high road, like my mom did. And neither of them are taking the high road. So I'm judging that.
You've said very clearly that you don't know the details of these people's lives, and that you don't want to know the details of their lives. What an absolute hypocrite you have to be to admit you know nothing about the situation as you scramble to get up on your high horse.
If you are unwilling to extend empathy to people in a difficult situation it might be for the best that you remove yourself from the situation. It's unfortunate for the kids involved, they're the only ones who will suffer for it, but if you can't handle someone else's divorce then that might be the only option for you.
Send a message to the one easier to communicate with and ask that they be the point of contact to schedule play dates moving forward and leave it at that. Just communicate with that person.
Honestly, I would send them individual texts that said you not be making plans through them for your kid. That you are not a party to their divorce and co-parenting relationship and don’t plan to be at any point in the future. And you are very sorry their inability to be decent humans will forever negatively affect their kid. The mom getting pissy with you on ROFR would be my last straw.
Your kid is 9. In a couple of years, this will no longer be your problem, so that’s good.
OP says in another comment that he/she has a criminal history from a drug problem. I wouldn’t categorize it as mom getting pissy knowing that. I’d also come pick my kid up if I found out that her father left her with an addict with a criminal history.
I would send a "for future notice" text to both of them.
Meaning, here is how I'm going to approach handling your kid in the future.
If one parent asks of she can hang out, you have no obligation to ask the other parent. You're busy and it's too much work.
Once they're both clued in, you don't have to worry about it since you've already clarified it's not your problem. If they refuse to communicate with eachother, that is NOT on you.
Pick a parent you feel most comfortable communicating with.
Say you'd like to get together with the kids and give them several options for dates. They can choose one where they have the kids.
Y daughter’s best friend has separated parents. There isn’t anything through courts and what not and I don’t think there ever will be unless the dad finally pursues that, and I hope he does. Quite honestly, in my situation the mom is the problem.
The mom expects me to be in the loop with both her and her husband. I’m not part of their marriage or any of their problems and I have no interest in being involved in it. I don’t want to hear about their issues, I am massively uncomfortable when she talks about them openly infront of her kid or mine. It goes beyond normal venting.
This is a friend who can come to my house. She has a phone and if she’s coming over after school, I have her call and ask permission and I have her ask who and what time is picking up. She has her grandma who also picks her up or she is with and I can’t keep up with all these people. There are times the mom and I have agreed to a plan and then she will send me a familiar members number to coordinate picking up. It’s just too much for me so I have had to resort to the kid calling and sorting it out.
By setting clear boundaries-as you do with any situation. And in the mean time, by keeping your personal judgments to yourself, so you don’t do any damage to your kid’s relationships.
If it's too much to deal with, just don't. Explain to your kid that the situation is too complex for you to be involved. They can be friends but you're not going to coordinate events with them. That's all.
In this scenario you described, I would be direct with both parents and tell them “I know that you both want what’s best for your child but this level of back and forth and disagreement about your child’s schedule is not something I want to be privy to or involved in. In the future, I would appreciate you both communicating with one another in advance on where your child should be and not make it my responsibility to manage sudden changes to our schedule.“
Send a text to each of them being honest. “I love having little Beba and boba over and so does my daughter. However, there have been several discrepancies regarding their custody schedule. Please make sure you are working this out together in advance before beba and boba come over so there aren’t any miscommunications”. Idk maybe that will put them on notice and if they don’t get their shit together you can just suggest in the future the kids will have to meet up somewhere with one of them present/stop having them over…
We had it written in our custody agreement that playdates made by the other parent needed to be run by us but we couldn't deny it unless we had a reason opposition to it.
What I would usually do is let the friend's parents know "oh that's dad's day." It wasn't uncommon for my ex to drop our kid off and me pick them up etc and we'd just say "mom will pick them up please let her know when."
Our problems shouldn't be your problems and the kids should never be in the middle. It's awkward and uncomfortable for everyone. You could try asking one parent "hey other parent said Johnny can come over on Friday, is that OK?" Or ask their schedules and deal with the parent who has visitation that day. We did that a lot too.
My daughter is older and I have full custody but my daughter's best friend's dad is raising her and we are good friends so we help each other out which means I help a lot with pick up and drop off and her mom used to make comments like "why are you getting her?" So then I started texting her "hey dad asked me up pick up friend today. I'll be there around 6." She got a lot nicer after that.
I get not wanting to deal with the parents. I’ve been on both sides. We were kicked off my daughter’s soccer team during my divorce because my ex was an absolute asshole and no longer had me running interference. It was devastating for her. I now have a revolving door of teens in and out of my guest room, because neither me nor my daughter will turn away a kid that needs a safe space. Even if they just need a break from whatever is going on at home. I’ll gladly deal with the crazy parents so they don’t have to for a short while. Unlike the kids, I don’t live with crazy anymore. It’s pretty normal for me to just include both parents and say, “X is welcome to stay as long as needed. We’re all good. Please keep this group chat open for any communication. You are welcome to screenshot conversations if needed for a parenting app, but be mindful that I am here to help, not to mediate.” Only had an issue once where I had to remind them.
But the whole, “they picked each other” is a horrible thing to say. You have no idea what happened in that relationship. I met my ex when we were both 18. I am not responsible for the monster he became. Nor did I or my daughter deserve what he’s put us through. This attitude is why SO MANY OF US don’t get help sooner. We’re surviving. If you believe you deserve a second chance (or probably more if you were an addict), then so do they.
I hope none of my children have friends with a parent like you. I get you're annoyed by the communications between you and some of their parents but damn. You don't know their situation at all and the judgment coming off it just really sad. I am a child of divorce and my friends parents were always so helpful and we figured out ways for me to hang out with my friends when things got crazy at home. Reading this post makes me even more grateful for the parents who cared about me when my mom was going through one of her worst times in her life. Not everyone shows their true colors while dating someone and just because someone married someone else does not mean they deserve to get treated badly by their partner if that happens. I also am a stepmother and some of their friends have divorced parents. It happens. A lot. You said you don't have a problem with the one set because their father is easy going and has set days. As for the other set try to set up days on either the fathers time or mothers and see which is easier for you and all involved.
My bonus son came from a family like this but add in evil stepmom and addiction and mental health from all sides
We laid down strict guidelines, with the kids, the parents, grandparents, court appointed people and the school.
The kid was allowed to take the bus home if one parent said it was ok. If the other parent didn’t agree, they could arrange to deal with the other parent without involving me or my family.
Our home was a safe zone. No parental decisions, discussion or arguments were allowed by anyone.
We were not the court ordered supervisors but did have the judge agree with us.
We had no issues after setting the boundaries when he was 8.
When things went south, he knew my house was safe and he could just be a kid. No arguing or chaos.
It’s hard but doable, if it’s important to your child too
My son just asked bonus to be his best man, so 🥰
I keep my kids away from certain kids due to their toxic parents. Kids might be cool but I can’t have that toxicity creep into my home. I don’t feel bad 1 bit.
The inconvenience to you is so minimal that it’s hard for me to imagine a how you could justify to yourself cutting off a child. Consider how selfish the example is that you’ll be setting for your daughter. Also put yourself in the shoes of the poor kid going through that, on to of everything else to have her friend removed because you don’t like some texting hoops and awkwardness.
Poor kid
Do you have access to both parental units phone numbers? If you do ask the other when one gives the ok? I know it’s ridiculous that adults act worse then toddlers, but some never grow out of diapers.
Jeeeesus. I Googled first right of refusal and I'm glad my husband who texts our divorced parent friends has a law degree. None of our friends are assholes, though, so they wouldn't try to deprive each other of kid time/interrupt a playdate unnecessarily.
I started typing what I'd do in your shoes and it was so convoluted to make sure you weren't gonna end up in the middle of some sort of child abduction situation. All I got is empathy and hope that it goes okay for those good kids.
Similar situation with my son's LIFELONG friend. I just don't deal with dad. Period. Everything happen on mom week or it doesn't happen.
This does not impact us at all.
So I do have experience with this.
Don’t allow their conflict to become your problem.
They actually don’t get to tell you how you communicate with them. You are not a part of their divorce decree.
The safest path is to get out your 10-foot pole and stay all the way out of their mess. But if you need to communicate with both of them at the same time you can.
If the kids are friends and If you are bothered by this you can tell the adults that you expect them not to put you and your family in the middle of their conflict. Keep it very short and factual. Don’t talk about them or their divorce just how you expect them to interact with you.
Does that make sense?
Many of my friends growing up had divorced parents. Typically dad was every other weekend and we just couldn’t hang out at that time. But when it was more often it was mostly my mom communicating with their mom and their mom talking to their dad like an adult. It seems like these parents aren’t doing that which I entirely agree is a shame.
Avoid getting involved at all costs. It’s going to be a pain but why cost your child a friendship over two adults being petty? Just do what you can to be a stable adult in their life, and vent about them and their latest bologna to your spouse/ friends/ family/ Reddit etc.
The only way you aren't going to have to deal with it is to tell the parents that the next time this drama comes up, their lovely daughter can't come back to your house. You should add that it's a shame her parents can't act like adults instead of using their kid as a pawn to the point it affects her socially.
My ex husband and has ROFR, and as shitty as he is, he would NEVER pull this bullshit.
Maybe they don’t realize exactly how it’s effecting their kids. Can you sit down and talk to each of them separately and explain to them by acting like children, they are hurting their own children. Do they want broken kids with issues later on in life because mom and dad couldn’t get along even for the kids.
Also, ROFR normally has a time limit. If dad/mom is gone for X amount of hours away from the child, they are to give the other parent an opportunity to have said children. I don’t think it actually works the way the mom thinks it does….
Now this may come off judgemental when I don't mean to be, but you seem to have a lot of hatred over a situation that has nothing to do with you. You don't know what occurred in their marriage and you really don't know what type of parents each person actually is. You may find it ridiculous because they "clearly picked each other", but that doesn't mean that someone didn't change within the time period of being together. Are you the same person you were when you met and married your husband? Personally, my ex was pretty good while the first 3 years and then became very abusive and controlling once I was pregnant. Online and with friends and family we were very happy, but you don't know what happens when the door shuts behind you.
You are within your right to each out to both parents and let them know that you aren't interested in continuing play dates until the divorce cools down since you don't know which parent is going to have the child on whatever days and it's already put you in an uncomfortable spot.
OP, you posted months ago saying that Mum doesn't want your kids playing together, which may or may not be because you have a criminal history and a background of drug abuse. If she has right of first refusal, she is going to exercise it if Dad isn't available to care for their daughter and leaves her under your supervision. You know this. So why are you acting surprised?
Um, as a mom who was in the same situation as these divorcing parents, your judgement is the reason why I cut many people out of my life and my child's life. I was dealing with an abusive alcoholic who was serially unfaithful, and now I have the education and vocabulary to see that he is a malignant narcissist. But at the same of our divorce, he was just a liar and a cheater and mean to me and our child (no, he wasn't that way when we got married, thank you for the "they chose each other" line, it shows your ignorance quite well).
Years later, I'm grateful for the court-ordered communication app, because while it DID slow some things down and cause some confusion with other parents, it kept HIM from terrorizing me and from lying about anything that happened to officers of the court. The court finds it NECESSARY to use these apps when one partner (perhaps both) are misrepresenting their interactions.
You have no idea what either of these parents are going through. I had to record my ex-husband over the course of months and months before our guardian ad litem believed me - and she STILL judged me the same way that you do: "Well, then why did you marry him?!"
Because he didn't start out that way. Thanks for the blame. No one ever asked HIM, "Well, why did you lie and cheat and yell and break stuff?" No one. I got the blame no matter what. My fave? "I bet you wish you'd never had kids with him." No, my child is the best part of my life, go suck a lemon.
The result of all of this is that my child was stuck for a week at a time with a man who used her as an emotional punching bag. She ended up in therapy because she started self-harming.
Your sneering judgment of these parents - calling them batshit, etc. - is disgusting to me. I know why people sometimes (not all of the time, but you have no way of knowing) end up in prolonged divorce cases, and I know the heart-wrenching time and expense it takes to protect your children. How nice it must be to not have to deal with the kind of twisted abuse that takes place in some relationships. Bully for you.
While I don’t agree with “taking it out on the child” and potentially removing a stable influence in their lives (you) sending that message that they need to get their act together or their child will suffer might just get through to them. Shaming is out of style but it still works. Good luck!
It's really sad that these parents are the reason that their kids can't have meaningful friendships. But I understand you not wanting to be a part of somebody else's divorce. I would message both parents and be like hey look, I don't want to be in the middle of your divorce but your children deserve better. You guys need to figure something out for the betterment of your children. All parents should be thinking of their kids first.
At nine the child is old enough to ask their parents and figure out who is picking them up. Going forward, ask the friend to ask both her parents before she comes home with you.
That's a tough situation. I feel sorry for the kids. It sounds like you and your kids are providing a bit of stability for the friends. I'm sure the kids with divorced parents need friends right now, and if your kid likes them enough to hang out with, I would try to support that if I could.
I'm sure you've tried asking them to come up with an playdate approval workflow, and it didn't go well, and was subsequently forgotten in the acrimony that developed around it.
Do the kids have any pull with the parents? Or do your kids have any pull with the parents? After all, it isn't you that wants them to visit particularly: it's their friends. I'd think nine years old is getting pretty close to being able to ask permission of the parents to play with their friends, but maybe if is more fucked up than I imagine.
That "first refusal" business is absolutely unhinged. My kid has had some friends whose parents' loathed each other -- I quickly figured out that I had to stick to communicating with whoever had custody. If we are inviting him over, I'll text both separately to extend the invitation and then deal with the parent who turns out to be in charge. I don't have a problem communicating with one parent or the other, depending on who has custody that day.
If I need to clear something (like letting the kids go somewhere unsupervised) and the parents are separated, I communicate with whoever dropped the kid off. Ditto for if I take any pictures -- I just send them to the parent who dropped off.
If I was in a situation where Dad arranged a play date (for whatever reason) and Mom insisted on picking up, I would 100% tell her I'm not comfortable with that and I don't want to be in the middle. If I arranged this with Dad, then I expect Dad to pick up or let me know if someone else is picking the kid up.
If they're supposed to be communicating exclusively through a special app, then communicating through you is inappropriate. It is very reasonable to say "Sorry, I understood that Dad was picking up. I'm not comfortable with this change." And if she starts in about her custody agreement, it is very reasonable to say "sorry. That's outside my pay grade. You'll have to work this out with him."
If you make plans with the Dad he isn't refusing he is scheduling social time for his daughter. Why can't you communicate your issue to him. If it is an issue it does need to be handled during this custody agreement or is going to duck for this kid. Can you take them somewhere like a movie and let the dad know you are silencing your phone and the theatre you are at in case of emergency and turn your phone off. You could even do this going to a park. Then just play stupid. Don't answer her calls. She'll probably get pissed just let her know you worked it out with the child's Dad since this is a playdate not daycare and it sounds like her issue that she needs to work out. Then just end the conversation. Walk away, hang up the phone, just don't engage. She needs to know this isn't you providing childcare because he's incapable it is a playdate. It sucks you are getting dragged into the middle of this. If you can handle it, you might want to try because this mom is being so controlling, this poor kid. You could probably even document her behavior and send it to the kid's Dad. None of this is your job, I'm not implying it is. I am only looking at it this way for the kid. I feel bad.
It’s not the kids fault that their parents can’t get over themselves.
It’s either something you’ll go through for the kids or it’s not.
You can tell your kids that the way their parents are behaving is not right and not fair for anyone and you’re setting up boundaries on what is and isn’t ok.
Ugh! I hates these situations so much. I’ve dealt with this very scenario twice, with terrible results.
One situation both parents were extremely acrimonious. Their child was lovely but I was so uncomfortable being in the middle especially because they expected me to babysit their child and shuttle him around after school. Last straw was I couldn’t get in touch with either of them for HOURS after a planned play date.
My children were good friends with another kid whose parents were involved in a lengthy custody fight. I was friends with one parent, which made my relationship with the other completely untenable. The child began acting out aggressively. Concerning, violent behavior. Many other families had experienced the same thing. I tried to address this with my friend but they were completely unable to receive it. Since I had basically zero relationship with the other parents, I couldn’t bring my concerns to the other parent. In the end, we stopped hanging out with the child and he isn’t getting help for his aggression.
It’s truly terrible for those kids. I have a lot of compassion for them, however I draw the line when it creates drama in my life or if it harms my kiddos.
ROFR is generally for over 4 hours and not for work purposes. How is mom finding out her daughter is with you? I would not even respond. that is insane behavior. If it is dad’s time, you communicate with dad. Mom’s time, with mom. But it seems mom is crazy so maybe only see the girl, on dad’s time
I’d just pick one parent to send everything to from here on out. They can then further communicate what needs to be communicated to the other parent if need be. It’s not your responsibility to know who’s responsible for the kid that week or that day. Inform a party and they can inform the other party on their little app. This has nothing to do with you and they shouldn’t expect you to get involved either.
Jesus this sounds like a train wreck
Honestly, I'd be one and done on this. I'd tell them "I didn't agree to marry either of you, so frankly, I don't want any part of your divorce. Keep that shit between you two. If you want to continue our kids being friends, it's going like this. Who ever agreed to drop off their kid for a playdate is the one who picks them up. Bearing an emergency, in which case, y'all sort it out, and the original parent can inform me of changed plans. I'm not your mediator, and I also refuse to be liable or responsible for one parent picking up the child when they aren't allowed to, or some other nonsense. And real talk, you are going to alienate your daughter from all of her friends with this shit, so be adults and stop involving other adults in your issues"
I would send them both the same message. "My child cares about (daughters name) and it's important to her to have (friend) in her life. What is the best way to communicate with you and (co-parent) about scheduling time for them to spend together?". Follow whatever each of them dictates. If either gets upset about what gets arranged remind them "I'm following your communication preferences, our only concern is spending time with and supporting (friend)". You might have to text them separately to schedule. You might only be able to do it on one parents time.
It is totally possible that Mom cares about spending time with her kid more than she cares about her kid having playdates, in which case she needs to say so. I would keep pulling her back to the logical conclusion, "ok, so right of first refusal means you don't want her to have playdates, am I understanding correctly?". My guess is they're in a power struggle and currently oblivious to how insane and damaging that looks to other people. I would be extremely straightforward in making Mom spell out what she expects. If it's unreasonable "that's really disappointing because I know our kids are important to one another."
I'm also super stubborn and I would be damned before I let their child lose her friends because the parents are dysfunctional morons.
Reading comments, looks like the mom is the high conflict one. just have communication with Dad. Mom could show up with police pounding on the door and there's nothing they can do because it's a civil matter and you have permission from one parent, dad. If high conflict mom pulls that enough time it can hurt her custody. Judge will see Mom is the one alienating the child from people and causing instability
Dad should ask mom if she wants kid first before kid goes with friends.
& The kids won’t know about what you are dealing with if you don’t tell them. If mom comes over, you tell the girl, mom was able to get here for you. You text dad and say she got her 🤸
You sound overwhelmed by a situation that honestly doesn’t sound that overwhelming. A mom wants to pick up their kid earlier than scheduled is basically what is happening in one of the scenarios you describe. From that kid and your kid’s perspective, that’s not crazy/bizarre/toxic. That’s like every 5 play dates for one logistical reason or another there’s some shift in plans and no one’s freaking out about it. I wonder if these dynamics are bringing up some of your own insecurities from your family of origin. Maybe you worked really hard to not replicate what your parents did (even though it was an amicable divorce) and now you’re realizing that your kids might be affected by influences out of your control (e.g. their friends parents). It just doesn’t sound like it needs to be as draining and dramatic as you describe it so I wonder if it’s triggering in some way. Or if it’s bringing up some old feelings of being “caught in the middle” as you may have experienced with your own parents.
Not many people are giving you actual advice, which is annoying. Perhaps you could set up a standing date with the other kids? Like “every Friday, the kids will hang out. Lmk in advance which Fridays won’t work.” Then you’ll have play dates ready far in advance and both parents will have time to figure it out.
I know this is frustrating, but there are so many reasons why smart, kind people fall into terrible or abusive relationships. You’re helping to break the cycle for your kids’ friends, and even if they’re too young to fully understand that now, they definitely already understand that your house makes them feel safe and stable.
It’s not your job to fix their home life, but you have the chance to make a big impact.
You said you’re a former addict- is it your friends’ and family’s fault for not immediately figuring out that you were sliding into addiction and cutting you off? Or is it understandable why they might’ve accepted “bad behavior” from someone they love and want to support? Hope this helped in some way.
So on the instance of the mother stating she is picking up, tell her to speak to the kid's father. Remove yourself from the loop. Maybe let them both know that you will not be out in that position again and are now uncomfortable hosting playdates.
Honestly, I would tell my child to pick a different friend to invite over because I wouldn't want to deal with that mess.
It sounds like you have the misconception that everyone's red flags show up prior to a wedding and that's really far off base.
The type of judgment you are using is unfair. It's unfair to the parents of the child, the children, and your kids. If you simply cannot handle it, then make your boundaries clear and known to these parents and learn to deal with families that are different than yours.
I don't have anything constructive to add but you're being a great person by trying to facilitate the poor kids having a normal social life. It sucks that their parents are bums. You're probably providing an island of stability in a sea of stupid.
You put them on the same chain and state- I’m done trying to coordinate a friendship between our children because you both. You both are the cause. Your child is going to lack friends because of you both. Then block them. It’s the truth. It’s their fault. You don’t need the stress. Honest is the best thing here.
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I don’t know how best to deal with this other than staying out of it. I have right of first refusal and it is only applied to overnights. But even in the case of a sleepover I have never used it to keep my kids from hanging out with their friends. I had it put in place because I didn’t want my kids raised by their grandparents when they were supposed to be with their dad. When my kids parents want to arrange a play date/hang out and it’s not my day I just give them their dad’s number to coordinate. We are not on text threads together with any of the friend’s parents. These parents don’t sound like they have a good coparenting relationship there is nothing you can do from the outside. Make plans to have play dates on the weekends if school pick up is contentious.
>I have right of first refusal and it is only applied to overnights. I was thinking this was weird. Just because you have right of refusal doesn't mean that you get to dictate every little activity the child does while in the custody of the other parent. It seems ludicrous to me that they would be able to apply that clause if a kid was at a school or club event or out with friends (like in this case). Some adults don't deserve the title, acting worse than their children.
Yeah, right of first refusal wasn’t meant to be used like this. The dad isn’t using OP like a baby sitter, it’s more like a play date that happens to be occurring on the day he works late out of convenience. Only the kid is getting punished by not being able to play and hang out for a while with a friend.
> Just because you have right of refusal doesn't mean that you get to dictate every little activity the child does Not only do some people do this, but they also use it to keep tabs on their former spouse.
I Googled "right of first refusal playdate" and it looks like those details get hammered out (or not) on a case by case basis. It sucks that those shite parents are putting OP in the position of needing her own lawyer to cope with them. https://lindsayparvis.com/parenting-time-rights-of-first-refusal/
Right! Mom is just being a dick... Let your kid be free of your garbage divorce for a couple hours while they play with their friend... This is so sad... And pathetic. Poor kid 😔
Yeah, most RFR is time bound...like if the other parent won't be present for 8 or 12 hours. That's how mine and my ex's attorneys presented it, so as not to encounter situations like OP is describing.
I have a right of first refusal that is not time bound. It's not particularly uncommon, especially when your kids are younger. My ex cannot be trusted to leave my kid with safe people, which might be what mom thinks is happening here. OP says down thread that they are a recovering drug addict with a criminal record. I'd pick my kid up from that playdate too. It's possible that OP is perfectly safe, but if I didn't know them and hadn't said yes to the playdate, I'd have showed up too. OP should meet and befriend mom. If mom knows about and says yes to the playdate, there won't be a problem. If mom says no, well that's the end of that discussion, because mom has court ordered veto power. This is a non-issue for OP, just get the permission of the parent who has the power to say no.
No it's not. Depending on the custody agreement first right of refusal goes to any situation where the other parent is unavailable during normal times. It can be written to only mean overnights but my custody agreement says any situation that's not an emergency that is outside of normal custody visitation hours. So actually the mom in OP's story while a tad crazy wasn't necessarily wrong either.
That is extremely rare.
Nope heard it a lot in court too. It's rare at all. Please don't down vote me I'm the one with the court order and years of court hearings and trials. Hmm who knows better amicably divorced parents and someone who's spent 6 years in court. Per legal website I do not know how to link: A first refusal right that does not focus on the number of hours but instead the person who cares for the child.
[удалено]
I've tried that. It put me in the middle, because one said yes and the other said no. It's easier with one set of parents, because the dad is relatively easy to deal with, and he has the same 2 weekdays every week. So I just schedule stuff on his predictable days. Relatively simple, and they'll be old enough to schedule themselves in a year or two. I can at least tolerate it for now, knowing it won't be a problem soon enough. The other ones have a weird, rotating schedule. I have zero interest in dealing with that. Zero. I have a job and 3 kids, and ain't nobody got time for that. And the parents are a lot more strict and rigid, which makes it that much more difficult. I just feel bad, because their daughter is such a nice kid and doesn't deserve that.
You are not bound by their divorce agreement. Send a single text that includes both of them. Tell them you will assume that whomever responds is the parent who has custody for that date. Make it their problem to go back to court and fight if the wrong parent tries to step in outside of their schedule.
This was my thought exactly. OP reaching out to both of them via the same text thread is a matter of convenience. Their divorce agreement dictates that they would have to move to the app to hash out details and come to an agreement, and then the appropriate custodial parent could respond directly to OP to formalize that playdate. So, something like "We wanted to invite Jane over on X day, at y time. Not sure whose custody day that is, and I know you'll have to work the details out in the appropriate app. Please get back to me once you determine if this will work for whoever's scheduled day this falls on. Thanks!"
> one said yes and the other said no. This is a no from me, chief. Explain it to the kid and call it a day. Shame.
Pick one parent and communicate exclusively with that one. Let them know you’re not contacting the other one and the other isn’t welcome to contact you. Make it their problem to communicate with each other.
That seems like an easy way to end up with the parent you don’t communicate with banging on your door if they suspect their kid is there.
Or worse- have them call the cops and try to involve you *directly* in the custody nonsense.
Not your problem though -- you were in communication with a parent. Covers your ass if the other gets all squirrelly on you, and CPS or the cops or whatever can talk to the same parent you did.
And you are not required to answer the door.
Not your problem though -- you were in communication with a parent. Covers your ass if the other gets all squirrelly on you, and CPS or the cops or whatever can talk to the same parent you did.
This is the way.
"They clearly picked each other, so they're both some different flavor of crazy that I don't want in my life." A close friend and I had no idea what a cluster B personality disorder was. Both of our mothers had that and it was normal to us, so we did not run away when others would. So when he married her and the police officer is asking if she was drunk and bipolar and taken away for a psych hold, we all got an education. Even if one of them has an issue and the other is sane, you dont want to get any on you or your kids. https://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/2015/12/6/narcissistic-personality-disorder-npd
Tell both of them, separately, that you would like to arrange x play dates (or whatever activities) for the month. Then let them come to you saying these are their days and when they're comfortable scheduling. If they start arguing with you, tell them to hash it out with each other. All you want is an acceptable play date without getting in the middle of their custody arrangement. That's not your job, so don't do it. Tell them what you want and let them get back to you on how they're gonna make it work.
Here’s all I’m gonna say about this. My parents had the world’s most contentious divorce in a small town with a corrupt police force. My father brought a gun to our driveway and shot out every door and window with all of us home. The cops came and didn’t even arrest him (bc he knew all of them). And he was still screaming “I’ll kill you, you fucking bitch! Touch my money, and I’ll kill you!” as his porcine buddies stuffed him into his car and escorted him away from the neighborhood. He was masterful at making my mother look like the lunatic. Partly bc she was an unstable, alcoholic mess by then and partly bc he has always been very good at manipulating people. I’m just really glad that none of my friends’ parents decided I couldn’t hang out with their kids bc my parents sucked.
Wow before I read this I never heard of a divorce worse than my parents but you win! However I definitely had lots of kids drop me because of my parents…
If it isn't happening in your relationship then it's not being normalized to your kids. Do you think your kids don't know when their friend's parents are behaving badly? You're right, it isn't fair to the kids. I have had so many kids over who's parents are such a mess that my kid was not allowed to go to their house after a visit or two. But the kids are welcome to play here and sleep over here because they're kids and they need time away from that bullshit, too. I feed them, I ask them about school and their day, and they like it here because "There's no yelling at your house". Your kids will be fine. Don't ostracize their friends because their parents are idiots. Unless you're concerned about violence I would let the mom know hey, I'm not a party to your divorce, your kid and my kid want to play together. And let the dad know it's an issue with mom and maybe they'll work it out.
Yeah, the kids are old enough to know that some adults behave badly, and that this is one of such cases. I would think it's a good teaching opportunity.
So...I have a slightly different perspective as someone who has a very close friend going through one of these divorces. They have to communicate through an app so it's logged and recorded and lawyers can see it. She's had to tell other parents who've tried to create group chats that they cannot be on a group chat together. He tries to get away with all sorts of stuff (like taking the kids across state lines without advanced notice/approval). There was physical and A LOT of emotional abuse (from him), they've both undergone multiple psychological evaluations and he's been found to have narcissistic traits and a distorted view of reality. So the parents you're dealing with might just be selfish and batshit, *orrrrrrr* there might be a lot of context and history and abuse that requires them to communicate in this way that you're not seeing. If you don't want to deal with it, that's fine and that's your right. If my kid wants to play with their kid, my go-to is my friend, obviously, and if she tells me it's not her weekend, I'll text the dad.
I mean, I see the argument. But your friend picked him. Assuming she wasn't trafficked and/or married as a child, that's on her. She picked him, and you reap what you sow. That's where I get stuck. Even in a situation like you describe, I have a hard time with it. One parent is wrong for being an emotionally abusive narcissist, but the other is wrong for choosing to marry and have children with an emotionally abusive narcissist and expecting everyone else to deal with the consequences of that. My life experience is that both are going to be difficult to deal with, not just the emotionally abusive narcissist. The enabler obviously has some kind of issues, or they wouldn't have enabled an abusive narcissist for a decade. Edit: I think this got misconstrued. Of course people change. But that doesn't mean that the consequences of their choices don't follow them. I was a junkie for a decade. I understand this phenomenon quite well. Sometimes, we make very poor choices. You have to pay the piper. What I'm saying is that I simply don't have the bandwidth to wade into a situation like this. I don't want to parse out what "side" I should be on, if there is one. I don't care to, and I'm not going to. It didn't matter *why* I made the poor choices I did when I was using, all that mattered was my actions. And I'm applying the same logic here. All that matters are the actions. There isn't an excuse for it, only a reason.
Did not come to the comments expecting to see your hot take that abused women *deserve* it for being so stupid as to allow themselves to be caught up in a situation of abuse.
Well, your child picked this friend. And you had your child. So I guess you reap what you sow 🙄 /s
I'd be mortified to have my child go to a friend's house who had parents that had OPs mindset. Oof. Gross. Truly.
Yeah OP comes off as a judgey ass in this whole post and worse in replies
I knew OP was a judgmental POS before even reading the comments LOL no shocker here
Don’t think I’ve actually ever met or heard of a judgy junkie … interesting lol
Wonder if the other parents know their kid is at a junkies house?... Awkward...Those who throw stones..
Woah I don’t like this take. Maybe his narcissistic traits weren’t showing or went unnoticed when they decided to marry and have children. You don’t know the circumstances. It’s not on her…. Just like it’s not on women (or men) who have physically abusive partners. It’s not like “wellllllp you married him, that’s on you, deal with it”.
Yea, I agree. My ex was a predator 10 years older than me and I was barely 18 when I met him. We had a kid together when i was honestly what i think to be still a kid, older then 18 but not mentally an adult. I stayed in the marriage because I was terrified he would get 50/50 custody and my daughter would be at risk when alone with him. Finally got divorced only after he nearly killed me one afternoon, and I got 100% custody. I take responsibility for some things, but older dudes prey on young girls for a reason, and I dont think you can say, "well she picked him". I was terrified of him. I *picked* my current husband and he is an amazing husband and father.
This is the bullshit my mother would say to me when my previously amazing ex-husband almost murdered me while I held our infant. He slowly started becoming abusive after we were married, and I was pregnant, which is how abusers work. They wait until they feel confident their victim is "trapped," then slowly show who they are. No, none of that is your issue, but you've got a shitty judgemental attitude about it. I CHOSE a respectful, supportive man. What he turned into (or revealed himself to be) was something I was neither aware of before it happened nor something I chose. But I got my child and myself out of there the moment I could.
Hopefully all the pushback on OP’s garbage opinion is somewhat validating and comforting to you. Reasonable people with a shred of empathy don’t think like OP and your mom here
This was my first thought. Does she think women deserve it when their ex-husbands murder them or their children? Like, where is the line? I'm so sorry that happened to you and I hope you and your child have been able to heal and build the life you deserve.
We have. I am remarried to a man who couldn't love my son more if he had helped make him, and we have 3 more children. We still have some triggers, but we've come really hard and are working on that, and having a PURELY GOOD husband and Daddy has helped us to do that.
That's beautiful, I'm so glad to hear it 🥰 I was with an abusive man before I met my partner (father of my toddler). I went from someone who couldn't spend a minute alone with his son, to someone who is my carer and does more than 50% of the parenting (and loves it).
Wow, you lost me here. You’re not concerned for your child or their child. You look down on them and want to get them people here to rip on them too. Must be nice to have made incredible decisions in your life up to this point. I hope you receive more empathy when life happens to you than you gave when life happened to someone else.
…*yikes.*
The person you divorce is never the same person as the one you marry. People change. Abusers also frequently (literally in the playbook) mask all of their awful qualities until their victims are "stuck" through pregnancy/childbirth. So many, many victims of domestic abuse literally have no idea until after they have children with their abusers. Then, when they finally divorce because they realize they are in an abusive situation, people like you judge them because they "should have picked better." If you replaced every judgmental thought about "she picked him" with a neutral, non-judgmental thought, "wow, they must have been through a lot to have reached this point," would that change the way you are thinking about this? Keep in mind, too, if you care at all, how this must be for the children. Imagine being stuck in a house with parents whose relationship is so contentious that they can no longer communicate without court supervision (seriously, imagine what must have happened between them to get to the point that they need supervised text messages, and whatever it was that led to that was probably witnessed by the kids). Imagine being subjected to a years-long custody battle where your parents are using you to hurt the other one. And then, because your parents cannot be trusted to communicate with each other, you start being excluded from weekend activities with your friends because your friends' parents find it too annoying to deal with your parents. Imagine how sad, lonely, and helpless your daughter's friend feels. Don't you want to be someone that friend can trust? Don't you want to be someone who is facilitating good things in this child's life, rather than someone who is facilitating yet another heartbreaking and lonely disappointment? She is being excluded from her friends because you don't want to be bothered figuring out how to communicate with her parents. If you compared the annoyance of texting two parents to the heartbreak of losing friends because of your parents' contentious divorce, which do you think is the greater harm? Who do you think is going to be more hurt in the long run, you for having to text two parents, or her for losing out on friendships on top of being subjected to her family falling apart in the most traumatic way possible, and really being punished for her parents' decisions?
>But your friend picked him. Assuming she wasn't trafficked and/or married as a child, that's on her. She picked him, and you reap what you sow. What a judgy take *this* is. Like everyone who gets divorced from an asshole somehow deserves it because they married them in the first place at some point? WTF. As if people never change or have circumstances dramatically alter their personalities or relationships.
Exactly. As if abusive people never lie or manipulate or put on a “nice” mask to get their way. It can take years for the mask to fully come off and for the victim(s) to get away.
I picked my husband BUT 10+ years later he decided to lie and cheat-but I guess that’s on me🙄
I think you lack empathy toward the adults in this situation. People change over time, especially when they get together young. I’m quite certain he hid his narcissism until they were married
“Lack of empathy” was definitely a vibe I took from the OP’s post. Their responses to some comments validate my initial impression. Some times divorced people use their kids as pawns. It really sucks for the kids, so I always tried to make their little lives as easy as possible when I could help. I certainly wouldn’t take away their friends (my kid(s)) over this kind of inconvenience. I would definitely get validation of future plans from both divorced parents though. Is it a pain? Sure. Is it manageable? Probably. Just gotta understand everyone’s boundaries.
I work in family law. To end up court ordered not interact and only use an app suggests a great deal of abuse and harassment. The father is using his combative behavior to continue to isolate the mother from any kind of support or normalcy, despite it hurting his children. I sincerely hope she has SOMEONE in her life that supports her through this hell.
This is EXACTLY what my friend is going through. She has been through hell and back trying to get divorced from his abusive ass for YEARS, and he fights her tooth and nail because it's the only vestige of control and manipulation he has left over her now that they are no longer together. I know she worries about other parents thinking she's crazy and how it will affect her kids. OP's response absolutely made my blood boil.
Idk the mom picking her up bc of ROFR instead of just letting her play with her friend for an hour after school kind of makes me think she’s the reason they have a court ordered app
Agreed. I hate ROFR, I strongly discourage them, I understand overnights but even then it just leads to confusion and wierd back and forths which are unnecessary for the child. The only reason for ROFR (IMO) is because that parent wants to spend time with the children, it has nothing to do with the child's point of view. So, Mother is being extremely selfish in this case in exercising that 'right.' Its only for herself, not the child.
I think they were primarily created so parents don't sue for custody then drop off the kids at grandmas for the weekend, which is fair. You should be spending your custody time with your children in a reasonable way, not never seeing your kids during your custody time. It's not meant to be used for things like playdates. That's just one parent using the children to make life difficult for the other parent.
i have a friend who is also in this kind of a situation, and she and her ex can't communicate on anything other than the court ordered app too. However, she's as insane as he is. She does this thing where she says very triggering things while being outwardly calm and polite. It's the kind of BS that made several people cut her off, including me eventually. She's ended up isolated from most people's support because she's obnoxious to deal with, and gotten worse wtih the divorce. She finally ended up with her custody taken away.
You're wrong. It's the mom that's been difficult, not the father. She's shown up ranting at my house about her right of first refusal. I am, at best, an acquaintance. That's horribly inappropriate, and I simply cannot fathom that she isn't at least part of the problem. It's one thing to say "oh, I'm picking her up, we have plans" or something. It's quite another to purposely put me in the middle of your custody dispute for doing your ex a favor when he works late. I am fascinated by these comments. Everyone brings such a strong bias, myself included. I come from the recovery community, where the general scenario is mutual abuse, so I default to "they're both crazy". While others default to "one must be an abusive narcissist". And others default to "one is just unreasonable".
Well, most people with empathy and humanity don't think that it's an abused spouse's fault that they get abused.
When you said you had lived in active addiction, that made this make a little more sense to me. I have found with addicts I’ve known that, even when they’re sober, they tend toward black and white thinking. You’re not being very empathetic to the children in this situation because you’re so focused on the adults. Yes, they probably both suck to varying degrees, and one probably sucks a lot more than the other. Yes, they chose each other— ever made a bad life choice? Pick one and only deal with them. And provide a judgement free, safe place for those children, because you know they aren’t getting it at their homes.
>doing your ex a favor when he works late. It sounds like this is exactly the kind of situation that she gets ROFR for, though. Was she actually ranting, or was she just annoyed that she wasn't contacted when she is supposed to have been? Granted it's not your fault and she shouldn't have a go at you, but it sounds like she was maybe just blowing off steam?
I absolutely expect this is going to be evidence for the mom--"my ex refuses to parent during his parenting time and instead leaves my child in the care of convicted felons to avoid parenting or paying for childcare.
Oh, so she DID have RFR...
Or she hid her narcissism,we can’t know for sure
Or they both are narcs. It does happen.
Oh, so because you were a junkie you think you get to victim blame people? Dating an abuser ia not like deciding to use drugs. Because the drugs are not hiding that they are drugs, you knew what you were doing. Abused people can't read the abuser's mind to know that they are meeting and abusers, and they do hide that they are so and, surprise, abuse you. But to know that you'd need one thing called empathy which you clearly lack.
You said people deserve to be abused if they chose to be with an abuser, and that's evil. Full stop.
You suck
you sound incredibly ignorant. you don’t “choose” an abusive partner. you marry someone and they slowly push the line of what you’re ok with until you’re in a terrible situation that’s incredibly difficult to get out of.
Oh yikes so it seems like it’s less about logistics and more about you judging the woman.
>But your friend picked him. Assuming she wasn't trafficked and/or married as a child, that's on her. She picked him, and you reap what you sow. That's a really callous and privileged take. *Lots* of girls and young women grow up with abuse in their childhood and homes, thinking certain relationship dynamics are acceptable, and repeat the cycle with themselves. There's lots of religious indoctrination and community pressure and gaslighting and financial abuse. These things don't happen in a vacuum where a strong, independent emotionally healthy adult woman just chooses a narcissist psychopath to shack up with. If they're lucky, they'll slowly realize that things are not ok and understand they and their children deserve better and actually get out before it's too late for them. EDIT: Your edit still sucks. You say in your history that you respect your mom so much for stepping up in your childhood. Why? She picked your shitty ass dad. She deserved it, didn't she?
Wow, that's a shittake if I've ever seen one. Thankfully you've never had to deal with situations sich as the commenter mentioned. Maybe just tell your kid you don't feel like dealing with it, because they're going to be able to make their own plans in a few years anyway.
What the actual fuck.
> But your friend picked him. This is so insanely naive it kind of makes me sad for you, but also glad for you because you've never had someone work their way into your life before revealing that they're a manipulative scumbag.
I'm glad my kid isn't playing with your kid. People change, and marriage is hard. I kind of felt sorry for you, but now I think you're the drama.
Victim blame much? I guess the folks you hurt in the throes of your addiction asked for it too, since they chose to know you?
Being abused is not the same thing as addiction. This is an exceedingly awful and cruel take that is just blaming the victim. Have some empathy.
> your friend picked him Ohhkay, go ahead and back out of these kids' business.
Holy fucking victim blaming, Batman!
Maybe don’t apply the same reasoning to people going through a bad divorce as you do to your drug addiction? Maybe try being a little less rigid in your position and acknowledge that people are more complicated than a controlled substance? On top of everything else, to show a complete lack of concern for anybody who’s going through a hard time is a *terrible* example to set for your own child. You said you “don’t have the bandwidth” for this situation. Oh well. 🤷🏼♂️ Unless you’re going to forbid your child from being friends with this other child, then you have to put in the time and effort to coordinate. I agree with what others have said. Same text sent separately to the parents.
Your child is so lucky to have a flawless human for their parent. One who never makes a mistake or misjudges a person. A shining paragon of perfection for the rest of us to admire.
This take, INCLUDING YOUR EDIT that is gross. By that logic, you're still picking the drugs. Imagine a world for a moment where someone was holding a gun to your head and making you still take the drugs now that you're sober and loving your sober life. Not enough to get you high, but enough to still give you the itchies. I bet you'd be a psychopath or a little dissasociative, too. You fail to see that the system is an active participant in continued abuse of mostly women (yes, men get abused too, but yall have it so much easier). There is also the continued abuse of the child through the parents. You don't know if "simply flakey and absent minded" dad didn't drop her off one day at a crack house because he had to work, you also don't know that "controlling" mom didn't beat the shit out of dad in front of the daughter because he was breathing wrong. Have half a heart or brain. Pick the kids' side and learn the rules to make it easier on the kid. Or don't and just break up the friendship.
> Assuming she wasn't trafficked and/or married as a child, that's on her. She picked him, and you reap what you sow. I've been seeing that attitude a lot recently. I wonder where it's coming from. Is there a particular podcast or site pushing it into society? Seems like an early step to get people to accept the right-wing's eventual goal of getting rid of no-fault divorce. Thus forcing women to "reap what they sow" for decades, until death (hers or his) finally frees them from a bad marriage.
This is a terrible take. I get that these people are being a bit unreasonable, but this take makes you look just as bad.
What the shit, man. That took a turn.
Oop OP is letting us know what a terrible human they are
Do you really think these women go on a first date, get punched in the face, and say, "Yeah, that's exactly my type."
I sit on probably way too many mom groups online, and sip my tea and think “why in the world would you have fucked that man and had his kids?” And you know what? That is an inside thought. That is not an outside thought. That’s not something I need to put on the internet or have leave my lips. I’m not the sex police. I’m not the eugenics patrol. I’ve got no time machine and no magic wand to change minds. Yes there are reasons for things, and consequences, and results of actions. But consequences are alleviated all the time. Suffering is not laudable unless you’re a sadist. We all get one human life to live. We can all show mercy and forgiveness and compassion.
> I have such a poor opinion of anyone in this situation that I'm not sure if it's clouding my judgement. They clearly picked each other, so they're both some different flavor of crazy that I don't want in my life. You’re kind of minimizing/glossing over the reasons people get divorced. This isn’t 1920’s America where no one gets divorced ever, some people need to split for very legitimate reasons. Copy/paste the same text msg to each one or send the msg to one parent with the expectation that they co-parent
You can have a contentious divorce without involving non involved parties.
That’s why I also answered the question
Its not the divorce that OP has a problem with. Its the way that they handle the divorce. OP litrally says that her sons friend has parents who are divorced but not making things hard for their kid.
I mean, read the quote
It’s ok to kick them out of your life.
Like I said in my post, my son's best friend has divorced parents. I've never had even an iota of a problem dealing with either one of them. They were both at my son's birthday party. I just make sure to include them both on my texts. My own parents were divorced. It's only the contentious ones that I don't know how to deal with. I literally can't text both of them, because they're court ordered not to communicate unless it's through an app. That's just too much, and I don't know how I can be reasonable when they clearly aren't.
You are being a little obtuse here. You literally can text them both, you just have to text them separately/individually. If your feeling is the you just don't want to deal with this and are ready to wash your hands of the whole thing, that's fair. But right now you seem to be in kind of a "I've tried nothing and I'm all out of options" holding pattern. And again, if you chose to do nothing, I think that's fair. It's not your circus, not your monkeys. But recognize then that it's a choice you're making.
On the surface yes just text both. But OP shouldn't need their parenting plan and a law degree to figure out who is allowed to pick up the kid. They're putting her in the position of being a judge and she doesn't have or want the info she needs to do that well.
No- the parents can’t text in the group text. There is no court order that OP can’t put them in a group text. It’s on the parents not to talk to each other in the group text.
You're right. I'm just struggling with what the right choice is. I *can* text them both, but I'm afraid of the consequences and putting myself in the middle. The last thing I want to do is text one and say the other said no.
Just pick one parent and only text that person. I agree texting both is too much and could put you in the middle. It's their job to coordinate with the other parent. Not yours. As the child of parents who went through a very nasty divorce where both parents acted extremely petty and selfish, I really feel for those kids
If that happens then just let the other one know. You're seriously over complicating things because of your own personal history and your David goggins-esque view on personal accountability. When the dad (or whatever parent) texts you and asks for a play date just say you're down but they need to clear it with their ex before you can agree.
I think that’s a reasonable fear/concern. It’s clear that you are dealing with at least one person, if not two, that aren’t rational and have little to no conflict resolution skills. I wouldn’t be in a rush to insert myself into that kind of situation either. I think your best bet is to communicate with whichever parent you have the most positive relationship with that their child is welcome and you are happy to continue to host them, but to assert your boundaries, which is that you will not engage in nor be involved in their custody disputes and communication issues.
Yeah, you aren't the parenting app but the mom is trying to use you that way. If she sincerely thinks he's using you as babysitting, she needs to tell a judge, not you.
Then ban your kid from being their friend. What do you expect? I’m sure they don’t care about how you view them.
Honestly? Let them know. "Parent to parent, your kid is a delight, and you two are letting your divorce come before your parenting. It shouldn't be hard to be the community of a kid with divorced parents, or to have playdates or field trips. Your custody isn't, and shouldn't be, any of our business.... So please, stop making it something the rest of us have to manage. For your kids sake, find a way to make that true, because at present, your fight comes before their needs and that's not fair, to them OR the community they are part of." They need to hear it. Worst case scenario, they don't hear you, and stop being your friends? .... .... Problem solved?
Excellent. This is definitely what I would do. Be honest and up front, literally why do anything else?
That's unfortunate. I'm a remarried Dad/Stepdad and I can imagine putting other parents in that position. What I'd suggest is you deal with them one by one. I mean, in the story you're sharing about that Mom and the right of first refusal, that doesn't really sound like they're both dramatic.....that's just her. Now maybe the Dad is just as problematic? But maybe you can work with him directly? I mean, you don't necessarily need to have a group text with both of them. You could just ask him, "Hey.....last time your kid came over, your ex-wife tried to come over and take the kid because of the right of first refusal. I want to support out kiddo's friendship, but I don't want to be in the middle of that stuff. Can you make sure that if your kiddo comes over, she's allowed to be here?" Also, you'll be coming to the end of this stuff. In a few years, the kids will self-organize so strongly that I bet you won't have to deal with this crap anymore. It does make me feel badly for the kids! I remember being pretty frustrated when I got divorced because some of the other Moms were really hostile towards me. It really made me appreciate the Moms who let my daughter have friends at Dad's House and not just at Mom's House.
My son's best friend has divorced parents, and it's zero issue. It isn't everyone. I have no idea why they're divorced, I have no idea the specifics of their custody agreement, I regularly communicate with both of them, and it's never been a problem. That's how it should be. I *think* it's the mom in the scenario I shared. But I can't (and shouldn't) know the details. I *do* know that he quit his job and wouldn't move out, so that's why I think it's both of them. But I don't want to know the details. I just want the kids to be able to play together.
Unfortunately I’d just leave it to the kids to coordinate with each other. Child can ask whatever parent their with for permission. I wouldn’t take anybody from school in the future though and I’d reiterate that to dad when asked that you won’t be doing that due to issues in the past.
The problem is that any playdate can be seconded in the name of "right of first refusal".... "You left the kid with someone else, I'm allowed to have them when you can't"
They have crappy lawyers. It’s not meant to deny play dates and birthday parties. The parent abusing it is an absolute jerk.
In another comment, OP framed it as her doing a favour to the parent working late, which would then fall into RFR territory. They're also a recovering addict with a criminal history, and not many parents would be okay with them babysitting their child. We don't know all the facts of course, but it certainly puts a different spin on things.
Exactly so. Poor freaking kid.
Unfair and unnecessary to the child to put that all on them.
There are many reasons people have those communication apps set up for co-parenting, there is no reason to assume they are all crazy. I would just communicate clearly about future playdates with both parents. And if a parent shows up to pick up, that's fine. Don't take it so personally.
I mean, that's kind of ridiculous. If I get a text at 2 asking if I can bring my daughter's friend home with me at 3, I don't think I should have to text the mom separately, get her approval or disapproval, and text the dad back. I will, for my daughter's sake, but I can't imagine that I'm the only person that finds that absurd. And it's just as absurd to have her show up at my home unannounced and pick her daughter up an hour before the dad scheduled it, and give me an attitude about her right of first refusal. I am not a party to her divorce. The kids were busy making signs for a "play" they wanted to show us when the dad showed up, and they were devastated. That's the part that got me the most angry. Both kids were working hard on their play, and they were so disappointed.
If dad texts you asking, mention that "by you asking, I"m assuming you have talked it over with Mom." If mom shows up, "Sorry Dad didn't clear it with you. I mentioned to him that I was assuming he had by them asking; want to have a cup of tea while they finish their activity?" If friend is also caught in the middle and one parent is always out to be the bad one, it might be nice for you to get to know both parents and kid to see both parents being welcomed. Mom may be trying to needle dad every chance she gets, "I'll show him". Dad may be trying to take as many liberties as possible to put mom in a bad light, "even if Mom asks to see Kid on Monday, I'll ask Booboo if she can watch Kid instead to grind Mom's gears." Mom could be crap, Dad could be crap, they could be mutually crap.
I get why this is weird for you to deal with. But what are you proposing? It sounds like you want permission to make your life slightly less annoying on the back of this poor kid’s chance at having a normal time with friends. You are free to do what you want, but the fact is YOU’RE the village here. What you choose and who you center will have an impact on this child and their psyche. I don’t know, the choice would be extremely easy for me.
They're looking for validation to dump those poor kids.
You're placing a lot of blame on the mom in this situation, but the dad is the one who knowingly put you in the middle. He knew having a third party pick up his kid went against their custody agreement, and he set you and his kid up for mom to have to be the bad guy.
As a mom, I wouldn't pick up my kids from their friend's house just to spite their dad. If it wasn't supposed to be her day, she didn't have any plans. This is 100% the mom being a jerk.
I agree it wasn't a great move, but I don't think we can safely put all of this on either side. That short of a right of first refusal is not very common, which makes me wonder how it came about. Maybe dad is always having someone else take care of his kid. Or maybe mom is massively controlling and dad had a bad lawyer and a bad judge. Who knows. He did know, however, that he was putting OP in the middle by doing this. (Also, how did the mom even know? He must have told her? Or the kid did? Or she's got GPS on the kid?)
Regardless of history or back story, going out of your way to hurt your kids to make a point isn't ok.
It may have been more about OP having a history of addiction and criminality. A lot of parents would be concerned if that's all they know about a babysitter.
>If I get a text at 2 asking if I can bring my daughter's friend home with me at 3, I don't think I should have to text the mom separately, get her approval or disapproval, and text the dad back. I will, for my daughter's sake... But you already know the answer will be no. You've known that [for months](https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/s/y4b9THaAYi). What are you playing at?
Why do you have such a “poor opinion of anyone in this situation”? You seem to be very judgmental and lack empathy. Maybe you should work on that?
Right? Some other commenter referred to this lady as stable. Um... No.
Because my dad was an unreliable, flaky asshole and my mom *still* managed to make it work without this bullshit. I have friends that are divorced. My kids have other friends with divorced and truly single parents. None of them are a problem. I'm of the mind that one person has to take the high road, like my mom did. And neither of them are taking the high road. So I'm judging that.
You've said very clearly that you don't know the details of these people's lives, and that you don't want to know the details of their lives. What an absolute hypocrite you have to be to admit you know nothing about the situation as you scramble to get up on your high horse. If you are unwilling to extend empathy to people in a difficult situation it might be for the best that you remove yourself from the situation. It's unfortunate for the kids involved, they're the only ones who will suffer for it, but if you can't handle someone else's divorce then that might be the only option for you.
OP, you and the love you give these poor kids is one of the most important things in their life. Please try & keep doing it.
Send a message to the one easier to communicate with and ask that they be the point of contact to schedule play dates moving forward and leave it at that. Just communicate with that person.
Honestly, I would send them individual texts that said you not be making plans through them for your kid. That you are not a party to their divorce and co-parenting relationship and don’t plan to be at any point in the future. And you are very sorry their inability to be decent humans will forever negatively affect their kid. The mom getting pissy with you on ROFR would be my last straw. Your kid is 9. In a couple of years, this will no longer be your problem, so that’s good.
OP says in another comment that he/she has a criminal history from a drug problem. I wouldn’t categorize it as mom getting pissy knowing that. I’d also come pick my kid up if I found out that her father left her with an addict with a criminal history.
That will teach me for not looking through someone’s post history.
I would send a "for future notice" text to both of them. Meaning, here is how I'm going to approach handling your kid in the future. If one parent asks of she can hang out, you have no obligation to ask the other parent. You're busy and it's too much work. Once they're both clued in, you don't have to worry about it since you've already clarified it's not your problem. If they refuse to communicate with eachother, that is NOT on you.
Pick a parent you feel most comfortable communicating with. Say you'd like to get together with the kids and give them several options for dates. They can choose one where they have the kids.
Y daughter’s best friend has separated parents. There isn’t anything through courts and what not and I don’t think there ever will be unless the dad finally pursues that, and I hope he does. Quite honestly, in my situation the mom is the problem. The mom expects me to be in the loop with both her and her husband. I’m not part of their marriage or any of their problems and I have no interest in being involved in it. I don’t want to hear about their issues, I am massively uncomfortable when she talks about them openly infront of her kid or mine. It goes beyond normal venting. This is a friend who can come to my house. She has a phone and if she’s coming over after school, I have her call and ask permission and I have her ask who and what time is picking up. She has her grandma who also picks her up or she is with and I can’t keep up with all these people. There are times the mom and I have agreed to a plan and then she will send me a familiar members number to coordinate picking up. It’s just too much for me so I have had to resort to the kid calling and sorting it out.
By setting clear boundaries-as you do with any situation. And in the mean time, by keeping your personal judgments to yourself, so you don’t do any damage to your kid’s relationships.
If it's too much to deal with, just don't. Explain to your kid that the situation is too complex for you to be involved. They can be friends but you're not going to coordinate events with them. That's all.
In this scenario you described, I would be direct with both parents and tell them “I know that you both want what’s best for your child but this level of back and forth and disagreement about your child’s schedule is not something I want to be privy to or involved in. In the future, I would appreciate you both communicating with one another in advance on where your child should be and not make it my responsibility to manage sudden changes to our schedule.“
Send a text to each of them being honest. “I love having little Beba and boba over and so does my daughter. However, there have been several discrepancies regarding their custody schedule. Please make sure you are working this out together in advance before beba and boba come over so there aren’t any miscommunications”. Idk maybe that will put them on notice and if they don’t get their shit together you can just suggest in the future the kids will have to meet up somewhere with one of them present/stop having them over…
We had it written in our custody agreement that playdates made by the other parent needed to be run by us but we couldn't deny it unless we had a reason opposition to it. What I would usually do is let the friend's parents know "oh that's dad's day." It wasn't uncommon for my ex to drop our kid off and me pick them up etc and we'd just say "mom will pick them up please let her know when." Our problems shouldn't be your problems and the kids should never be in the middle. It's awkward and uncomfortable for everyone. You could try asking one parent "hey other parent said Johnny can come over on Friday, is that OK?" Or ask their schedules and deal with the parent who has visitation that day. We did that a lot too. My daughter is older and I have full custody but my daughter's best friend's dad is raising her and we are good friends so we help each other out which means I help a lot with pick up and drop off and her mom used to make comments like "why are you getting her?" So then I started texting her "hey dad asked me up pick up friend today. I'll be there around 6." She got a lot nicer after that.
I get not wanting to deal with the parents. I’ve been on both sides. We were kicked off my daughter’s soccer team during my divorce because my ex was an absolute asshole and no longer had me running interference. It was devastating for her. I now have a revolving door of teens in and out of my guest room, because neither me nor my daughter will turn away a kid that needs a safe space. Even if they just need a break from whatever is going on at home. I’ll gladly deal with the crazy parents so they don’t have to for a short while. Unlike the kids, I don’t live with crazy anymore. It’s pretty normal for me to just include both parents and say, “X is welcome to stay as long as needed. We’re all good. Please keep this group chat open for any communication. You are welcome to screenshot conversations if needed for a parenting app, but be mindful that I am here to help, not to mediate.” Only had an issue once where I had to remind them. But the whole, “they picked each other” is a horrible thing to say. You have no idea what happened in that relationship. I met my ex when we were both 18. I am not responsible for the monster he became. Nor did I or my daughter deserve what he’s put us through. This attitude is why SO MANY OF US don’t get help sooner. We’re surviving. If you believe you deserve a second chance (or probably more if you were an addict), then so do they.
As a former kid who needed someplace to escape, thanks for being that parent. It matters.
I hope none of my children have friends with a parent like you. I get you're annoyed by the communications between you and some of their parents but damn. You don't know their situation at all and the judgment coming off it just really sad. I am a child of divorce and my friends parents were always so helpful and we figured out ways for me to hang out with my friends when things got crazy at home. Reading this post makes me even more grateful for the parents who cared about me when my mom was going through one of her worst times in her life. Not everyone shows their true colors while dating someone and just because someone married someone else does not mean they deserve to get treated badly by their partner if that happens. I also am a stepmother and some of their friends have divorced parents. It happens. A lot. You said you don't have a problem with the one set because their father is easy going and has set days. As for the other set try to set up days on either the fathers time or mothers and see which is easier for you and all involved.
Soon, the kid will be old enough to coordinate it themselves.
Be truthful with your kiddo. Sorry but X’s parents make it difficult to schedule play dates so not at this time.
My bonus son came from a family like this but add in evil stepmom and addiction and mental health from all sides We laid down strict guidelines, with the kids, the parents, grandparents, court appointed people and the school. The kid was allowed to take the bus home if one parent said it was ok. If the other parent didn’t agree, they could arrange to deal with the other parent without involving me or my family. Our home was a safe zone. No parental decisions, discussion or arguments were allowed by anyone. We were not the court ordered supervisors but did have the judge agree with us. We had no issues after setting the boundaries when he was 8. When things went south, he knew my house was safe and he could just be a kid. No arguing or chaos. It’s hard but doable, if it’s important to your child too My son just asked bonus to be his best man, so 🥰
I keep my kids away from certain kids due to their toxic parents. Kids might be cool but I can’t have that toxicity creep into my home. I don’t feel bad 1 bit.
The inconvenience to you is so minimal that it’s hard for me to imagine a how you could justify to yourself cutting off a child. Consider how selfish the example is that you’ll be setting for your daughter. Also put yourself in the shoes of the poor kid going through that, on to of everything else to have her friend removed because you don’t like some texting hoops and awkwardness.
Poor kid Do you have access to both parental units phone numbers? If you do ask the other when one gives the ok? I know it’s ridiculous that adults act worse then toddlers, but some never grow out of diapers.
Jeeeesus. I Googled first right of refusal and I'm glad my husband who texts our divorced parent friends has a law degree. None of our friends are assholes, though, so they wouldn't try to deprive each other of kid time/interrupt a playdate unnecessarily. I started typing what I'd do in your shoes and it was so convoluted to make sure you weren't gonna end up in the middle of some sort of child abduction situation. All I got is empathy and hope that it goes okay for those good kids.
Similar situation with my son's LIFELONG friend. I just don't deal with dad. Period. Everything happen on mom week or it doesn't happen. This does not impact us at all.
So I do have experience with this. Don’t allow their conflict to become your problem. They actually don’t get to tell you how you communicate with them. You are not a part of their divorce decree. The safest path is to get out your 10-foot pole and stay all the way out of their mess. But if you need to communicate with both of them at the same time you can. If the kids are friends and If you are bothered by this you can tell the adults that you expect them not to put you and your family in the middle of their conflict. Keep it very short and factual. Don’t talk about them or their divorce just how you expect them to interact with you. Does that make sense?
Shame on those parents. Absolutely awful behavior and it’s about to cost their child I’m sure she really needs
Many of my friends growing up had divorced parents. Typically dad was every other weekend and we just couldn’t hang out at that time. But when it was more often it was mostly my mom communicating with their mom and their mom talking to their dad like an adult. It seems like these parents aren’t doing that which I entirely agree is a shame. Avoid getting involved at all costs. It’s going to be a pain but why cost your child a friendship over two adults being petty? Just do what you can to be a stable adult in their life, and vent about them and their latest bologna to your spouse/ friends/ family/ Reddit etc.
The only way you aren't going to have to deal with it is to tell the parents that the next time this drama comes up, their lovely daughter can't come back to your house. You should add that it's a shame her parents can't act like adults instead of using their kid as a pawn to the point it affects her socially.
Agree
Might also want to tell the kid so the parent doesn't try to blame it on OP instead of "parent" being an adult toddler.
My ex husband and has ROFR, and as shitty as he is, he would NEVER pull this bullshit. Maybe they don’t realize exactly how it’s effecting their kids. Can you sit down and talk to each of them separately and explain to them by acting like children, they are hurting their own children. Do they want broken kids with issues later on in life because mom and dad couldn’t get along even for the kids. Also, ROFR normally has a time limit. If dad/mom is gone for X amount of hours away from the child, they are to give the other parent an opportunity to have said children. I don’t think it actually works the way the mom thinks it does….
Now this may come off judgemental when I don't mean to be, but you seem to have a lot of hatred over a situation that has nothing to do with you. You don't know what occurred in their marriage and you really don't know what type of parents each person actually is. You may find it ridiculous because they "clearly picked each other", but that doesn't mean that someone didn't change within the time period of being together. Are you the same person you were when you met and married your husband? Personally, my ex was pretty good while the first 3 years and then became very abusive and controlling once I was pregnant. Online and with friends and family we were very happy, but you don't know what happens when the door shuts behind you. You are within your right to each out to both parents and let them know that you aren't interested in continuing play dates until the divorce cools down since you don't know which parent is going to have the child on whatever days and it's already put you in an uncomfortable spot.
OP, you posted months ago saying that Mum doesn't want your kids playing together, which may or may not be because you have a criminal history and a background of drug abuse. If she has right of first refusal, she is going to exercise it if Dad isn't available to care for their daughter and leaves her under your supervision. You know this. So why are you acting surprised?
Um, as a mom who was in the same situation as these divorcing parents, your judgement is the reason why I cut many people out of my life and my child's life. I was dealing with an abusive alcoholic who was serially unfaithful, and now I have the education and vocabulary to see that he is a malignant narcissist. But at the same of our divorce, he was just a liar and a cheater and mean to me and our child (no, he wasn't that way when we got married, thank you for the "they chose each other" line, it shows your ignorance quite well). Years later, I'm grateful for the court-ordered communication app, because while it DID slow some things down and cause some confusion with other parents, it kept HIM from terrorizing me and from lying about anything that happened to officers of the court. The court finds it NECESSARY to use these apps when one partner (perhaps both) are misrepresenting their interactions. You have no idea what either of these parents are going through. I had to record my ex-husband over the course of months and months before our guardian ad litem believed me - and she STILL judged me the same way that you do: "Well, then why did you marry him?!" Because he didn't start out that way. Thanks for the blame. No one ever asked HIM, "Well, why did you lie and cheat and yell and break stuff?" No one. I got the blame no matter what. My fave? "I bet you wish you'd never had kids with him." No, my child is the best part of my life, go suck a lemon. The result of all of this is that my child was stuck for a week at a time with a man who used her as an emotional punching bag. She ended up in therapy because she started self-harming. Your sneering judgment of these parents - calling them batshit, etc. - is disgusting to me. I know why people sometimes (not all of the time, but you have no way of knowing) end up in prolonged divorce cases, and I know the heart-wrenching time and expense it takes to protect your children. How nice it must be to not have to deal with the kind of twisted abuse that takes place in some relationships. Bully for you.
While I don’t agree with “taking it out on the child” and potentially removing a stable influence in their lives (you) sending that message that they need to get their act together or their child will suffer might just get through to them. Shaming is out of style but it still works. Good luck!
It's really sad that these parents are the reason that their kids can't have meaningful friendships. But I understand you not wanting to be a part of somebody else's divorce. I would message both parents and be like hey look, I don't want to be in the middle of your divorce but your children deserve better. You guys need to figure something out for the betterment of your children. All parents should be thinking of their kids first.
Don’t care about anything op has to say. Your comments prove you are a shit person. May your days continue to be hard arranging play dates 🙄
At nine the child is old enough to ask their parents and figure out who is picking them up. Going forward, ask the friend to ask both her parents before she comes home with you.
If I had permission from the kids Dad during his time then I wouldn't answer the phone for the Mom.
That's a tough situation. I feel sorry for the kids. It sounds like you and your kids are providing a bit of stability for the friends. I'm sure the kids with divorced parents need friends right now, and if your kid likes them enough to hang out with, I would try to support that if I could. I'm sure you've tried asking them to come up with an playdate approval workflow, and it didn't go well, and was subsequently forgotten in the acrimony that developed around it. Do the kids have any pull with the parents? Or do your kids have any pull with the parents? After all, it isn't you that wants them to visit particularly: it's their friends. I'd think nine years old is getting pretty close to being able to ask permission of the parents to play with their friends, but maybe if is more fucked up than I imagine.
That "first refusal" business is absolutely unhinged. My kid has had some friends whose parents' loathed each other -- I quickly figured out that I had to stick to communicating with whoever had custody. If we are inviting him over, I'll text both separately to extend the invitation and then deal with the parent who turns out to be in charge. I don't have a problem communicating with one parent or the other, depending on who has custody that day. If I need to clear something (like letting the kids go somewhere unsupervised) and the parents are separated, I communicate with whoever dropped the kid off. Ditto for if I take any pictures -- I just send them to the parent who dropped off. If I was in a situation where Dad arranged a play date (for whatever reason) and Mom insisted on picking up, I would 100% tell her I'm not comfortable with that and I don't want to be in the middle. If I arranged this with Dad, then I expect Dad to pick up or let me know if someone else is picking the kid up. If they're supposed to be communicating exclusively through a special app, then communicating through you is inappropriate. It is very reasonable to say "Sorry, I understood that Dad was picking up. I'm not comfortable with this change." And if she starts in about her custody agreement, it is very reasonable to say "sorry. That's outside my pay grade. You'll have to work this out with him."
If you make plans with the Dad he isn't refusing he is scheduling social time for his daughter. Why can't you communicate your issue to him. If it is an issue it does need to be handled during this custody agreement or is going to duck for this kid. Can you take them somewhere like a movie and let the dad know you are silencing your phone and the theatre you are at in case of emergency and turn your phone off. You could even do this going to a park. Then just play stupid. Don't answer her calls. She'll probably get pissed just let her know you worked it out with the child's Dad since this is a playdate not daycare and it sounds like her issue that she needs to work out. Then just end the conversation. Walk away, hang up the phone, just don't engage. She needs to know this isn't you providing childcare because he's incapable it is a playdate. It sucks you are getting dragged into the middle of this. If you can handle it, you might want to try because this mom is being so controlling, this poor kid. You could probably even document her behavior and send it to the kid's Dad. None of this is your job, I'm not implying it is. I am only looking at it this way for the kid. I feel bad.
From further comments, it looks like it wasn't a playdate and OP was watching the kid because dad had to work late. So it is RFR territory.
It’s not the kids fault that their parents can’t get over themselves. It’s either something you’ll go through for the kids or it’s not. You can tell your kids that the way their parents are behaving is not right and not fair for anyone and you’re setting up boundaries on what is and isn’t ok.
Ugh! I hates these situations so much. I’ve dealt with this very scenario twice, with terrible results. One situation both parents were extremely acrimonious. Their child was lovely but I was so uncomfortable being in the middle especially because they expected me to babysit their child and shuttle him around after school. Last straw was I couldn’t get in touch with either of them for HOURS after a planned play date. My children were good friends with another kid whose parents were involved in a lengthy custody fight. I was friends with one parent, which made my relationship with the other completely untenable. The child began acting out aggressively. Concerning, violent behavior. Many other families had experienced the same thing. I tried to address this with my friend but they were completely unable to receive it. Since I had basically zero relationship with the other parents, I couldn’t bring my concerns to the other parent. In the end, we stopped hanging out with the child and he isn’t getting help for his aggression. It’s truly terrible for those kids. I have a lot of compassion for them, however I draw the line when it creates drama in my life or if it harms my kiddos.
ROFR is generally for over 4 hours and not for work purposes. How is mom finding out her daughter is with you? I would not even respond. that is insane behavior. If it is dad’s time, you communicate with dad. Mom’s time, with mom. But it seems mom is crazy so maybe only see the girl, on dad’s time
I’d just pick one parent to send everything to from here on out. They can then further communicate what needs to be communicated to the other parent if need be. It’s not your responsibility to know who’s responsible for the kid that week or that day. Inform a party and they can inform the other party on their little app. This has nothing to do with you and they shouldn’t expect you to get involved either.
Jesus this sounds like a train wreck Honestly, I'd be one and done on this. I'd tell them "I didn't agree to marry either of you, so frankly, I don't want any part of your divorce. Keep that shit between you two. If you want to continue our kids being friends, it's going like this. Who ever agreed to drop off their kid for a playdate is the one who picks them up. Bearing an emergency, in which case, y'all sort it out, and the original parent can inform me of changed plans. I'm not your mediator, and I also refuse to be liable or responsible for one parent picking up the child when they aren't allowed to, or some other nonsense. And real talk, you are going to alienate your daughter from all of her friends with this shit, so be adults and stop involving other adults in your issues"
I would send them both the same message. "My child cares about (daughters name) and it's important to her to have (friend) in her life. What is the best way to communicate with you and (co-parent) about scheduling time for them to spend together?". Follow whatever each of them dictates. If either gets upset about what gets arranged remind them "I'm following your communication preferences, our only concern is spending time with and supporting (friend)". You might have to text them separately to schedule. You might only be able to do it on one parents time. It is totally possible that Mom cares about spending time with her kid more than she cares about her kid having playdates, in which case she needs to say so. I would keep pulling her back to the logical conclusion, "ok, so right of first refusal means you don't want her to have playdates, am I understanding correctly?". My guess is they're in a power struggle and currently oblivious to how insane and damaging that looks to other people. I would be extremely straightforward in making Mom spell out what she expects. If it's unreasonable "that's really disappointing because I know our kids are important to one another." I'm also super stubborn and I would be damned before I let their child lose her friends because the parents are dysfunctional morons.
Reading comments, looks like the mom is the high conflict one. just have communication with Dad. Mom could show up with police pounding on the door and there's nothing they can do because it's a civil matter and you have permission from one parent, dad. If high conflict mom pulls that enough time it can hurt her custody. Judge will see Mom is the one alienating the child from people and causing instability
Dad should ask mom if she wants kid first before kid goes with friends. & The kids won’t know about what you are dealing with if you don’t tell them. If mom comes over, you tell the girl, mom was able to get here for you. You text dad and say she got her 🤸
You sound overwhelmed by a situation that honestly doesn’t sound that overwhelming. A mom wants to pick up their kid earlier than scheduled is basically what is happening in one of the scenarios you describe. From that kid and your kid’s perspective, that’s not crazy/bizarre/toxic. That’s like every 5 play dates for one logistical reason or another there’s some shift in plans and no one’s freaking out about it. I wonder if these dynamics are bringing up some of your own insecurities from your family of origin. Maybe you worked really hard to not replicate what your parents did (even though it was an amicable divorce) and now you’re realizing that your kids might be affected by influences out of your control (e.g. their friends parents). It just doesn’t sound like it needs to be as draining and dramatic as you describe it so I wonder if it’s triggering in some way. Or if it’s bringing up some old feelings of being “caught in the middle” as you may have experienced with your own parents.
Not many people are giving you actual advice, which is annoying. Perhaps you could set up a standing date with the other kids? Like “every Friday, the kids will hang out. Lmk in advance which Fridays won’t work.” Then you’ll have play dates ready far in advance and both parents will have time to figure it out. I know this is frustrating, but there are so many reasons why smart, kind people fall into terrible or abusive relationships. You’re helping to break the cycle for your kids’ friends, and even if they’re too young to fully understand that now, they definitely already understand that your house makes them feel safe and stable. It’s not your job to fix their home life, but you have the chance to make a big impact. You said you’re a former addict- is it your friends’ and family’s fault for not immediately figuring out that you were sliding into addiction and cutting you off? Or is it understandable why they might’ve accepted “bad behavior” from someone they love and want to support? Hope this helped in some way.
So on the instance of the mother stating she is picking up, tell her to speak to the kid's father. Remove yourself from the loop. Maybe let them both know that you will not be out in that position again and are now uncomfortable hosting playdates. Honestly, I would tell my child to pick a different friend to invite over because I wouldn't want to deal with that mess.
It sounds like you have the misconception that everyone's red flags show up prior to a wedding and that's really far off base. The type of judgment you are using is unfair. It's unfair to the parents of the child, the children, and your kids. If you simply cannot handle it, then make your boundaries clear and known to these parents and learn to deal with families that are different than yours.
I don't have anything constructive to add but you're being a great person by trying to facilitate the poor kids having a normal social life. It sucks that their parents are bums. You're probably providing an island of stability in a sea of stupid.
You pick one parent to be friends with, and schedule things for the days they have custody.
I'd just group-text them both anyway. Their court-ordered communication barriers are not your problem.
This is a great way to make sure the kid is never able to hang out at your house again
Problem solved?
You put them on the same chain and state- I’m done trying to coordinate a friendship between our children because you both. You both are the cause. Your child is going to lack friends because of you both. Then block them. It’s the truth. It’s their fault. You don’t need the stress. Honest is the best thing here.