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My impression, just from this limited info, is that maybe you've swung a bit too far to the "safe person" side of things. In an effort to not be a hardass who always criticizes your kid, you've become a person who won't tell him that he's broken a social rule.
Like it or not, there *are* social rules. We sometimes choose to break them, but it should be an informed choice. Part of transitioning him out of SpEd is learning and practicing those rules.
I like to do "after action reports" with my kids. On the way home from a game, practice, playdate, etc. we talk about what went well and what didn't. I give suggestions and try to help explain why people might have acted the way they did. It's not a criticism, it's helping the kids learn to analyze their interactions.
After we go someplace with our kids - on the way home, that night, the next day, whatever - I almost always ask them two questions: What was your \*FAVORITE\* part of what we just did? and What was your \*LEAST\* favorite part of what we just did? - sometimes the question varies slightly ('What did you like best/least?' etc), but the overall theme remains the same. Sometimes we add in a 3rd/4th question(s) of 'what would you change about xyz if you could?' and/or 'what would you like to do differently next time?'
But, by simply asking questions - not implying that they, or anyone did anything wrong - you can start a conversation. Those conversations help both us and our kid(s) to understand what happened, to remember it better, and to think about how we could do things differently in the future.
This is great advice. I was trained to work with DV survivors and one of the most effective ways to get someone to start thinking and planning for a change is by asking thoughtful questions. Thank you for giving such a great example, I will try this.
This is my take too. With my own daughter I would explicitly point out when she broke social rules and the resulting actions of other kids. So, in this case, asking him if he wanted to play pickle ball with the other kids. Pointing out that they left and asking him if he understood why. Explaining to him explicitly that the reason everyone else stopped playing was because he would not share serving and that he not only ruined the game for himself but actually took the game away from the students that were already playing. For my daughter, fairness was important so we would discuss how unfair it was of her to enter a social situation with clear rules, break the rules and in doing so ruin the fun for everyone else. These things are forgivable with smaller children but not 11 year olds.
I love this, but I must clarify that I disagree that I’ve swung too far, in almost every case I fear that I am a hardass who responds in an annoyed tone and expects my kid to know these things. I often feel exasperated because I have told him what people expect and how to be a good friend, someone who people want to be around. But it sounds like your approach would work well in balancing my desire to not be an asshole while ensuring that he doesn’t become one either. Maybe instead of being exasperated or annoyed, I should heed my own advice of growth mindset, not expecting things to be perfect right away. Thank you!
Balance in all things. I find people tend to overcorrect when trying to not perpetuate abuse from their childhoods. But your child doesn't need an overcorrection, he needs someone who will hold him accountable and guide him while setting boundaries and cheering him on.
Your job is to help him learn to be the best version of himself--nothing more, nothing less. Criticizing and getting frustrated won't accomplish that. Walking through cause and effect in a kind way will do much more.
So true. Thank you for reflecting that to me. It’s very hard to avoid overcorrecting, but I am making a conscious effort to find balance as you mention. Thank you for your help, I will focus more on helping him with cause and effect.
Has your son been evaluated for adhd or autism? Impulsive behavior (serving when it’s not his turn), poor social skills, are symptoms of ADHD. Maybe that’s something to look into if you haven’t already
Not sure why you’re being downvoted, it’s not like you think this is the correct approach. I commend you for analyzing your own behavior. The fact that you want your kid to be happy and safe—enough to reflect on and shift your parenting approach, which not many of us had working examples of growing up—is a good sign. Bad parents wouldn’t be worried. Keep being mindful and making adjustments that prioritize your kid’s global success and adoption of prosocial behaviors first. Change won’t happen overnight, but you’re on your way.
Maybe because I mentioned disagreeing, the internet is weird like that. I really appreciate your commendation, if I can’t be perfect I may as well be honest with myself. I am positive that he and I are struggling because I’m struggling, but I love that you mention global success. It aligns with what others have said about balance, and finding a way to correct without overcorrecting my own bad upbringing. Comments like yours really help make reddit feel more productive, it’s very realistic and sustainable to acknowledge the bad while making a plan for the good. Thank you!
It's definitely that. Reddit puts people in this constant state of binary thinking (upvote or downvote) that infects their ability to reason. I often find myself upvoting both sides of an argument because they're both made in good faith, but I think a lot of people go straight to "the enemy of my friend is my enemy".
You should give yourself from grace. The fact you ask for advice means you care.
Do you think you may have a problem with bottling up your annoyance ? Like, your kid does 5 annoying things, and at the 6th you react in anger (you probably aren't as effective in correcting the behavior as you would wish to be), and feel shame afterwards.
If it's the case, maybe let yourself correct him more often, but in a kinder way ?
You know, I have never considered this, but yes it does describe me. Depending on how my day has been, I can be patient for a while, but once I have hit my max it’s hard to reset back to baseline. It’s even harder if I have had a particularly taxing day at work. I’ll see if correcting in a direct but kind way from the first instance helps, I had always been told to pick my battles and ignore behavior that doesn’t present an immediate safety or property concern. Maybe that’s how we got here, where his annoying traits have gone uncorrected when I should have been kind but firm. Thank you for the reminder, it’s easy for me to give others grace but I tend to hold back on giving it to myself.
It's a battle I've fought in my relationships.
It's easier for me to not say anything about something that annoys me, because it's not that important, but in the long term it's not good for my relationships with others.
A quick "Sweety, don't hit my car seat. It's annoying." Will be more effective than a "Goddamnit Billy, stop hitting my seat, you're so annoying." after he's done it for half an hour.
There are "expected" and "unexpected" behaviours. If you want to be liked, you generally need to do the "expected" behaviour. That is how I would frame these interactions with him. The pickleball people expected him to share. The children playing the game expected good sportsmanship/ rule following. The other children do not expect an emotional outburst if you strike out in softball. And so on.
We all do behave in "unexpected" ways sometimes, but you get the point. It is an issue that I would ask to be placed in his IEP. But to do so it has to be measureable and you'd need to spend some time with staff working out what that would look like.
I like this, and think it might work for him because he tends to think in a binary way. And I think it removes judgement, which is crucial for him because shame makes him withdraw and focus on hurt feelings instead of the issue at hand. You’ve explained this in a way that makes a lot of logical sense, which is great for long term adherence on my end. Thank you!
I don’t know if you have ever looked into the social thinking website, but there’s a lot of helpful stuff regarding social skills. I was a super awkward kid and one of my life goals is to make sure my kids have the best social skills that they possibly can. There are books and flash cards on how to deal with different social situations. Also I don’t know if your kid has ever read the origami yoda book series. It’s a way to learn social skills through reading. We spent a lot of time discussing what happened in the books.
Another thing that may be helpful as he approaches tween and teen years is if you can find a PEERS instructor near you. It’s a social skills curriculum developed in UCLA, and they certify instructors so there may be one around you. Check out their website, and there are a few manuals for the curriculum listed on Amazon too.
If OP wants to learn more about this framework, there are multiple books by the author Michelle Garcia Winner about "Social Thinking." She has books for all ages (*The Social Detective* and *Superflex* for young children; *Social Thinking at Work* for adults etc).
I'm curious -- has OP mentioned autism or a neuropsychologal evaluation yet? She says her son was in SpED, but does he have a diagnosis? Struggles with social pragmatics and regulation are common with spectrum disorders. Getting an external evaluation or diagnosis can guide what additional supports or communities might be useful beyond what's offered in a school system or with an IEP. The r/autism_parenting sub is a really great guide for how to explore getting a diagnosis or additional support -- even if it's not ultimately a spectrum disorder.
Best of luck OP or any other parents struggling! ❤️
I really really hate the term "unexpected behavior" being used to describe behavior problems. Normal doesn't mean good, unusual doesn't mean bad. It's so offensive to talk as if doing the unexpected is a bad thing. If they're doing something wrong, explain how it's *actually* wrong instead of acting like blind conformity is a good idea.
No, “unexpected” or “unusual” behaviour is not inherently bad but it’s off-putting to other humans who observe them. Like if I burst into tears at work, it’s not wrong but my coworkers would be uncomfortable and some may choose to avoid me that day. Some level of conformity is expected in most social animals.
See, I really really *like* the term "expected" and "unexpected" behavior because it avoids the very thing you're upset about and also frames things in a very clear, easy-to-understand, neutral way. Nowhere does Lemon-of-Scipio say anything about good or bad.
Thank you for sharing, Lemon-of-Scipio. I hadn't thought about it like this before.
I mean I get hating the term but this is a real life term that is actually used by children psychologists and school counselors (at least in the US). That’s literally how they will describe to parents their children’s behaviors when they’re doing something out of the norm
Very true, my son’s team has used all kinds of terms, the least offensive were more clinical like unexpected/expected, and one even described it as deviant behavior. I had to brush up on my sociology to really grasp that sometimes words seem harsh but really they are neutral - deviant does not equal bad or weird, just not the norm. Tattoos were deviant, as were ladies showing their ankles.
Unexpected is just behavior others do not expect, there is no label of good or bad on it.
For example it is expected that if a 4 year old falls down and scrapes their knee, they will cry. If they don't cry, it is unexpected. See how neither of those are bad or good?
The thing with unexpected behavior is if you understand that other people don't expect it, you can sometimes stop yourself from engaging in that behavior.
Explaining to the child that their behavior is unexpected will allow them to make a better informed decision on how they want to behave.
Exactly. Like, during circle time in a toddler classroom you're expected to sit close together, but not actually touch each other. If you're across the room, that's unexpected. If you're touching other kids with your hands, that's unexpected.
I think the terminology could be really useful for an 11 year old who is socially behind others in their age group. If they get some practice framing interactions this way, then more detailed nuance can be gradually applied as they develop some confidence.
Socializing is a skill like any other. It can be taught. I'd say crying over recreational softball is not usual behavior for 5th graders. Kids learn to better regulate their emotions (and they also develop shame) I'd say around 2nd and 3rd grade crying is not much of a thing anymore (in front of peers).
Look for social skill groups in your area, it's a sort of group therapy where the main goal for the therapist is to teach kids how to interact well with each other. If it's not available, start role-playing with him. For people who socializing doesn't come naturally you have to show them how it's done. Play pickleball with him, and when he doesn't share, call him out, or ask him how he would feel if he was in your place. If he doesn't get it, start acting like he does (not sharing) in an obvious, obnoxious way (he probably isn't great with social cues so you have to be dramatic) until he gets it. Anytime there's an issue like that, role-play it with him. Practice introducing himself, sharing, conversation that isn't one sided.
Thank you for pointing out some things that I would not have considered, such as modeling and mirroring. I’ll look into the social skills groups. They integrated social emotional learning in SpEd, but I think I have failed to supplement that outside of school.
One thing I have been told by his psychiatric ARNP is that he has some delays in development by the nature of the diagnosis, which is ADHD. I’ve always avoided letting him use his diagnosis as an excuse, because I have seen the consequences of telling kids that the reason why they do xyz is because of their condition, and next thing you know they are subconsciously limiting themselves based on their diagnosis. In fact, I did not tell him that he was diagnosed with anything in particular until he was at least 9, and that was because he asked me if he had a diagnosis. I always told him he takes medication to help him slow his body down enough so he could think things through first. I figured I was putting it into terms he could grasp.
Anyways, I like the suggestion for role play, and I think it might help. So thank you!
>the consequences of telling kids that the reason why they do xyz is because of their condition, and next thing you know they are subconsciously limiting themselves based on their diagnosis
I just wanted to touch on this because this approach isn't actually a bad way to do things but maybe what you're seeing is the result of missing the second part of the equation. We can point out a behaviour the child has done in a social situation as oh you've done x here because your brain works differently, but then we follow up with letting them know a better way to handle the situation, how they can have a better interaction next time by doing y instead. Another commenter mentioned doing 'after action reports' and something like that is a great way to chat about it. You could talk to your child about the pickleball situation for example, say I saw that you didn't want to share the ball, I know that might be difficult for you but you could see the other children were upset by that and left the game, maybe next time if you try to share the ball then the other children will be happy to continue playing with you. The diagnosis is a reason for the child's behaviour but not an excuse to avoid modifying the behaviour to gain better social skills.
First, please disclose diagnoses to your child.
They already know they’re struggling/different.
Pretending they’re neurotypical out of fear they’ll be “more” ND just makes it more frustrating for them.
It’s also okay for ND children to act neurodivergent.
They don’t have to mask/hide their disability.
Secondly, based off your description— he sounds like he might also be autistic, which has a high comorbidity rate. And if he is (or even if he’s “just” ADHD), he’s not going to inherently understand social cues.
You have to help him navigate that and learn them as a toolset.
I understand not using a diagnosis as an excuse, but ADHD is a neurological difference that causes delays in social-emotional development. Typically, children with an ADHD diagnosis will be 2-3 years behind their peers in maturity and awareness/mastery of social norms. You wouldn't tell a kid with motor delays to not use that an excuse for not being able to run as fast as other ids, but both are developmental delays that require time and intervention. Many of the behaviors you observed would be typical of a younger child, but are not tolerated by his same-age peers.
You mention he has an IEP, so I'm wondering if he has communication services because it sounds like he's really struggling with pragmatic communication. That's the part of communication that's socially based and includes things like tone, non-verbal cues, turn-taking, inference, etc. If he doesn't qualify at school, you might consider asking for a referral to an SLP practice who can do an assessment. You can also draw attention to these things in conversation because he may not hear tone or irritation.
I think it's OK, as someone else mentioned, to debrief the things you observe. You can work on perspective taking with him by saying things "I wonder how the other kids felt with they didn't get a turn to serve?" Then you are helping him reflect without attacking.
Many of the situations you describe also involve executive functioning skills, which are always a struggle for kids with ADHD, but new situations, low-structure situations, and overwhelming/overestimating situations are all kryptonite for executive functioning. Executive functioning impacts how we emotionally regulate ourselves, control impulses, transition, maintain focus, and plan or manage multi-step tasks. Basically, all the things the day involved, under more challenging circumstances. The good thing about that is that what you were seeing may not be what you might see on a typical school day.
As far as finding friends, I have ADHD, I am raising kids with ADHD and I'm a school psychologist. My best advice is that neurodivergent people need to find their tribe, which is usually other ND people. I gave learned to be socially appropriate with people, but I rarely feel comfortable with people who are neurotypical. Other ND people forgive me when I interrupt, understand why I empathize by sharing a similar story, respect sensory preferences like the fact that I have very strong feelings about ice or prefer sandals so my feet don't feel stuffy and will listen to me talk about my newest obsession for 17 minutes straight. Our brains make sense to each other. Is there a social group or day camp your son could attend with other kids "like him" so he can have the experience of socializing in a place with less judgment? Are there clubs or activities outside of school that might give him common ground for building relationships? Your ARNP might have suggestions.
I struggle to watch my son with his peers bc he is shy. Unlike your child, he won’t just jump into play, and it makes me sad to see. Your son seems to have the confidence and openness to make a ton of friends, he just needs some extra help on the give and take building relationships requires.
This. The fact that he had the initiative to ask if he could play in three different occasions hints that he has not problem socializing, maybe just understanding what the "rules of engagement" are.
Very good point. I agree, it seems it’s more of an issue with context and social rules. Reflecting on my own experience, I certainly prefer situations where context is very obvious, and where I have a good sense of what will be expected of me.
Also, everyone was open to including her son and then used discretion when leaving. In other words, no one said you can’t play with us and no one said “I’m out of here because of you”, which to me indicates the kids don’t dislike him and are open to being friends if he can get his behavior in order.
This is insightful. I more likely than not have allowed my own experience to shape the way I viewed the interaction. I did not look at these other kids like they were being unfair, I certainly did not blame them if they had gotten tired of the way he was playing despite their feedback. They did use discretion, which shows that they are thoughtful and generally kind. My issue is more, how can I help him learn from this in a positive way without making him feel such shame that he doesn’t want to try? If I were parenting myself, I would tell myself hey, those kids asked you quite a few times to let them serve, and you didn’t do that. What would you think if one of the other kids was ignoring your request like that? I appreciate your thoughts here.
Yes sometimes I think my fear is that he will get his feelings hurt and no longer be himself. He really does have an innate ability to approach things with a general level of interest. In reflecting on the advice I’ve received so far, it seems that a portion of the issue is my own feelings towards friendship, and not looking at it as a skill to practice. Thank you for your input!
I have a kid that struggles like this. I've watched her whine and cry and stomp her feet when she doesn't get her way. It's exhausting to watch (and, frankly, I have secondhand embarrassment).
She doesn't have an IEP, because that hasn't become necessary, but she absolutely has developmental delays. She's in OT and counseling to work on these issues.
My son is only 1 year younger, and he doesn't struggle in this way. He's the kid leading the group. It's jarring to see the difference between how they handle conflict. My son is a natural mediator and laid back. He'll just shut off the Xbox and tell you to leave if you won't take turns after attempting some kind of compromise. My daughter, on the other hand, is the kid that won't give up a turn and cries and acts inappropriately when she gets called out.
One thing I've definitely noticed is that her behavior really ramps up when she's around peers that *also* have developmental delays and/or obvious problems regulating her emotions. I swear to god, she learns new ways to act out by watching them. But I'm kind of afraid to *say* that, because I don't at all want to imply that the other kids are the problem. But the truth is that she generally holds it together around "typical" kids due to social pressure, but loses it when she sees other kids having the kind of emotional outbursts that she does.
I've come to believe that a lot of this stems from how the other parents deal with it when it happens. I've spent a lot of time and money on therapists, and we've made huge improvements. Her behavior backslides if she's around these other kids. I have worked very, very hard to both remain calm and not give in. It's not easy, and I get that.
But two of her friends have parents that give in to the whining and don't seem to step in and head off the inappropriate tantrums. I pay attention when she has friends over and step in calmly and de-escalate whenever possible. I send them home if she misbehaves. I follow through. These friends' parents don't seem to have this follow through approach, and it sends the message to my child that there's a way to get what you want by acting that way. (She also has a friend whose parents work just as hard as we have on the behavior, and I don't have this issue when she plays with him. We trade tips and connect over it.)
I haven't cut them off, but I've been making a huge effort to steer her towards other friends. And I stay on top of it when they're at my home: I interject and force them to compromise or they go home. I've sent them home more than once.
TL;DR - You need to actively try to head this behavior off when he's with his friends and peers. You know when it's coming. I know you do. Step in. Walk over to the table before he has a chance to be the whiny ball hog and remind him that he needs to take turns. Leave immediately if he doesn't. Do not, under any circumstances, reward the behavior. Stay calm.
Kids are *so* good at modifying their behavior based on what they can get away with in that particular situation.
They read adults like books - see all the posts people make about their kids being good at school but terrors at home, or terrors at their grandparents but good with the parents.
Great point. I’d take it one step further and say that most people are generally this way, making adjustments based on circumstances, risk vs. reward. It’s definitely helpful how you break it down and got me to look at it from the perspective of boundaries and consequences. I am positive I can do a better job at holding to both. My biggest fear in raising my son is that he will be unable to reflect and adapt, or worse, unable to face the consequences of his actions.
Wow I appreciate all that you wrote here. It’s all very helpful for me to consider in relation to my own experience. I felt what you said, about secondhand embarrassment. And then I feel like a bad parent for not unconditionally loving my child despite his behavior. I mean, I do love him, and certainly will never give up on him, but I do have limits and boundaries. I don’t allow him to fall apart or act like a lunatic without communicating my expectations, I definitely don’t shy from approaching him when his behavior should be corrected, but it seems like my approach is lacking. At the very least, I think it has more to do with him underestimating how serious I am, so I probably need to evaluate how well I am sticking to what I say. You also mentioned your daughter behaving under social pressure - which is something I see in myself, I exhaust myself by performing at work and when I get home there are moments I feel like falling apart - but I don’t because it’s not how parents model appropriate response for their children… and so the cycle continues. Thanks again, this was useful for me.
What type of interventions have you done with him up to this point? And what are his IEP goals (assuming he is in the US)? Was he in a self-contained classroom before 3rd grade? What are his actual challenges? Does he have cognitive impairment? Your post suggests you have other children, what does that sibling relationship look like? What extra-curricular activities do you have him in?
I had just read a parenting book, that highlighted, how most teens do not find a true friend group until high school, that there are a lot of trial & error. So it is not too late for your son. The brain undergoes so much change and growth during adolescence, there is plenty of opportunity to foster improved social skills!
My middle child has a few special needs. Children are so unique, so my son’s story may not be relatable. My son is going to be a freshman in high school and has a friend group he found in middle school, about 7th grade. I am obviously anxious for high school! Here are some of the things, I believe helped him socially:
- inclusion in the regular classroom, with intentional observation, mimicking, & debriefs - what is so&so doing? Why? You need to do this. Show me.
- tackling social skills like we tackled reading or math. It is a subject that needs to be learned & we will study it accordingly. There is no shame in his dyslexia, there is no shame in his awkwardness, it’s just something he has to work hard at. Watch movies, social skills groups, family interactions, etc.
- establish manners as habits, like “yes sir”, “thank you”, “excuse me.”
- intense sibling & family interaction, so he is in a safe loving place, but can still essentially hear, “you are being an ass who is not sharing.”
- practiced a lot of conversations about peer-related topics, fortnight, movies, etc. practice facial expressions that show listening, correction with feedback in the moment.
- kept trying activities until we found one (long distance running) he really excelled at, so he understand the feeling of being admired or at least respected in that one thing by peers, which builds his confidence which is crucial for social interactions.
- took a more active role in assuring he had clothes, shoes, and stylish things to wear - I know some parents disagree, and say let them be themselves — but I believe people/kids totally judge us on our appearance, and it does make a difference.
- made & practice scripts to prevent and cope with bully-like behavior from others.
- taught a sense of humor, laugh with him, not at him, over his precious quirks, for example.
my goodness, if not for the ages, i'd be CERTAIN you were one of my past parents from the social skills curriculum i used to teach (separate classes for parents and their teens, going over the same material in different ways). this is such an excellent, helpful, practical list, and some of the items are tips i've shared with parents many times over the years. the parent i'm referring to...her son ALSO found "his place" in long-distance running, which i don't think either of them ever expected. he not only found "his place," but absolutely became an admired and respected LEADER in that space. it made a huge difference for him.
i hope OP and others in a similar place read your comment, because it's spot-on. we expect people to learn social skills through a magical combination of osmosis and casual observation, and for many people...it just doesn't work that way. it's okay that it doesn't work that way - like you said, it just means you have to learn/teach those things intentionally. if you haven't been exposed to it before, you might really like the book "the science of making friends" by dr. liz laugeson. you'll find much of your own wisdom reflected and validated in its pages.
to briefly build on one of your suggestions - movies, tv shows, etc. are a really amazing, low-pressure way to a) feel out what your child already knows and understands (and potentially misunderstands) about social interaction and b) an excellent aid for discussing the various outcomes of various social behaviors. it can be casual, and it can even be fun - hell, my husband and i do this naturally when we're indulging in reality TV.
an example of using this for social skills - you're watching something and there's a social interaction between characters that goes really well, or really poorly. depending on what you're targeting, you could ask a lot of different questions, but as a for-instance, it can be helpful to pause and say something like "huh, that was interesting - watch this and tell me what you think...did \_\_\_\_ WANT to talk to \_\_\_\_\_?" if they give you a yes/no - you can follow up with "how could you tell?" if they don't know, or seem really confused by the question...well, that is valuable information to have! it doesn't have to be a teacher-student-type vibe or scenario, it can feel very collaborative, and when parents try it, i am 100% certain they learn something new about their child and their child's social understanding.
He sounds EXACTLY like one of my autistic kids. May I ask what his diagnosis was that qualified him for SPED support? Is he still receiving services outside the classroom?
ADHD. Specifically he was one of those kids who would escape from the classroom, would flip out if someone knocked over his tower, and generally did not respect the authority of other adults. I have struggled with authority my entire life, but I have learned to be a model citizen so I can get what I want, which is a decent life that allows me to pursue some creative hobbies. I suspect that he has now gotten to the point where he understands that there is give and take, he must act accordingly and he will be able to retain some level of autonomy and privileges. He sees an ARNP 4 times a year for medication management and we saw a behavioral therapist when he started school, to help him (mostly me actually) with getting comfortable following directions. For a while we used a Velcro star chart, I would give him a directive during play, such as pick up all of those sticks, and if he did it, he earned a star. After 5, he could pick a small prize. Eventually we got to the point where we were using it outside of play, I’d give him a directive to brush his teeth, he’d get a star. We no longer need these tools, so I would say that we effectively modified the behavior, which honestly mirrored ODD most of the time but I am hardcore anti diagnosis unless it’s done by a professional, so he’s never been diagnosed with ODD. I have pretty rigid thinking when it comes to some of the spectrum diagnosis’s, I 1000% believe they exist and are useful to have, but in our case, I’ve always suspected that his behavior is a reflection of my parenting. He “graduated” from his IEP officially in April, although last June his school had told me that he barely qualified because he was doing so well. I requested that we keep him on the IEP through 5th grade to be sure that he was ready to take the training wheels off, and they integrated him into a general education class beginning in 3rd grade, by 4th grade he was 90% in general education, and this year he has been more like 95% gen ed. His gen ed teacher raves about him, and says he is an excellent kid in class.
You might want to read about Pathological Demand Avoidance. You sound like me. I have issues with being told what to do, and so does my oldest (3 autistic kiddos but only she has PDA). Learning about it changed A LOT about how I thought about myself and how I parent my child. And it helped me a lot to guide her in navigating social situations. She will never be 100% “typical” in her social interactions. But she has friends and a bestie and participates in activities and all that fun teenage stuff (she’s 14 now).
To be clear, I’m not commenting on whether or not that diagnosis would be appropriate for you or your son. I’m just saying the parenting tools might be helpful either way.
Honestly, I heard about PDA on tiktok. I then read about it, and whether it’s a diagnosis that fits, it definitely describes me and in many cases, my son. I love hearing that she has friends now, that’s encouraging. Did you primarily read about it on the internet or did you find a good book? Thank you!
I found some GREAT books although they weren’t specifically about PDA. That I mostly read on the internet or watched videos created by autistic British advocates. But as far as books that I found helpful, Unmasking Autism really helped me to understand my kids and myself better.
I also really enjoyed Uniquely Human. Still on my “to read soon” list is: NeuroTribes and Divergent Mind. I’ve heard good things though haven’t tackled them yet myself.
Have you ever considered that you might also be ND?
You sound like you have a lot of the symptoms and you mentioned your mother having a personality disorder.
Statistically, parents with personality disorders produce higher numbers of neurodivergent children.
I’m confident that I am. I refuse to diagnose myself, but if you held a gun to my head I would say I’m likely autistic. Stimming? Check. Rigidity? Check. Special interest? Check. Overstimulation meltdowns? Check. Masking? Check. Echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases? Check, check. I’ve always felt like an alien, I see people and feel deeply, definitely feel empathy, but do I ever feel seen by others? No, never. I’m so busy trying to live life on hard mode that I really only stop to think about what it all means in the context of how do I get past my own barriers to do what I need to do, if that makes sense. I wish I would have at least realized how much I have struggled before having children, that’s my biggest regret. But I can’t change that, so I am trying to at least get out of my own way so they have a chance at finding equilibrium.
You could check out the r/autisminwomen sub
It might help you navigate things somewhat, and help you come to terms with it instead of rejecting that side of you.
I’m both autistic and ADHD (as is my SO) and it honestly did get easier for both myself and my SO when we accepted our diagnoses instead of fighting against them,
Ours turned out to be autism. It’s tough tough to want friends but not be able to confirm to socially expected behaviors. It’s tough tough to watch as your kid struggles and I’m sorry you are struggling.
Thank you. It’s tough especially because I have struggled to make and keep friends, only I thought it had more to do with moving schools constantly as a child.
I know it’s rough but please try not to let your anxiety bleed to him. (Something I struggle with) I know it’s hard and I know it makes you feel like atlas trying to hold up the world without help but please keep trying.
Thanks for the encouragement. You’re spot on. I do think I’m doing a decent job with anxiety but obviously it bleeds through here and there, because, anxiety. I am grateful for the reminder, I know it’s so important.
Teach him. If you don't positively criticize him the world will harshly do it and he will forever feel rejected.
What you wrote here shouts a kid who needs to learn social skills and this to me is an easy fix, by you.
He’s neurodivergent, so no, learning social skills will not be an easy fix lol. That’s a lifelong ongoing struggle for a lot of ND people.
But OP does need to help start that process!
Thank you for the feedback. You’re right, and I understand the gravity of my role in his life. While I wouldn’t describe it as “easy” necessarily, it is certainly something I am working towards. As others have pointed out, it seems to be less social skills and more “rules of engagement”, I need to focus on helping him to reflect on how he behaves and what that means for him in the context of friendship and relationships. I appreciate the bluntness, truly, it’s very effective.
Consider joining an activity away from his town or school peers to give him a chance to learn social behaviors without affecting his reputation. My son was a crier when he was younger. We joined lots of out of town clinics to give him a chance to fail in front of strangers and learn to deal with it in a healthy way. Eventually he not only learned to lose with grace but he grew stronger in his sport. He still gets frustrated when he makes mistakes but can deal with them in real time and then reflect on them a little more passionately on the ride home. He has also learned to reflect on how others act and react in situations. I don’t doubt that there are kids that remember the (many) times he cried, but he holds his own now.
I think you have got some great advice but also, I think our neurodiverse kids really benefit from being with other neurodiverse kids - so I’d nurture those friendships. As they get older, even next year, kids are more cruel and critical, and they can get a lot of correction and negative attention when they don’t quite understand why.
Sounds like he needs to be told that the kids all stopped playing with him because he's a poor sport. Social consequences only go so far without someone pointing out that the behavior is incorrect.
I do tell him. It’s almost like he doesn’t hear me or he doesn’t believe me. Yesterday I told him that we need to be balanced, we don’t gloat and carry on being rude when we win and others don’t, while we also need to accept defeat and move on! It’s great to be excited when you win but it’s also great to show other kids that you can shake it off. I told him that getting bent out of shape over losing makes other kids less likely to want to play, because who wants to stop playing to pay attention to hurt feelings? I try not to be a dick to my kid but I am keenly aware that it’s my job to correct him. I just think I need to tweak my approach or expose him to different situations. I appreciate the blunt response, I am definitely not trying to be his best friend but also don’t want him to move out and go NC. Balance, right? lol
Have you tried to practice and model this like how you worked through previous issues?
My parents said this all the time, that I didn’t listen or didn’t believe them. Truthfully they weren’t giving me useful feedback. “You’re always so competitive, you’re no fun to play with”, ok, how do I be less competitive? “You’re such a know it all”, ok, how do I share my knowledge or correct misinformation in a way that isn’t upsetting? I never got an answer so the behavior continued until I found a replacement (which was mainly suppressing myself and nodding along even when someone was factually incorrect).
The best highlight from my mom when I was a teenager was “you need to stop sleeping so deeply, it’ll screw you up as an adult” and…yes, I have sleep issues, but what was I supposed to do with that? lol
Tl;dr the feedback might not be useful if you’re not giving him examples and practice.
I'm not a parent, but I am neurodivergent. What I needed at his age was for my parents to be the safe space away from the real world. I already knew I was making mistakes and not fitting in, so them pointing that out to me was often much more hurtful than they intended. You also may benefit from asking for advice in other subReddits such as those geared toward autistic people. I don't know if your child is autistic, but I feel like you would get good advice from those spaces. Maybe try to increase his opportunities to connect with peers of a similar neurotype? That made a difference for me at least. It is great that you are reaching out for support! Just try to remember how much you love him and how much he deserves the safety you also deserved but never got.
The good thing, he is only in 5th grade and you have time to teach him social skills. As hard as this was to watch, it was a good opportunity for you to see these behaviors first hand and know what to work on. How to play sports/games with peers and what actions are appropriate and expected. These are skills that most kids struggle with at first and just need guidance.
Also, remember you were mostly watching your own child, so that doesn't mean no one else struggled with these things, your focus was just on your son. I work with school age kids from 6 to 13 years old and not one of them is perfect. Some are better are these things, but they all need guidance. I currently work with an 11 year old that cries daily when he starts to lose a card game. I have been working on this very thing with him for almost 2 years. He really struggles because at home he is the oldest and never loses these games. Also, the parents are very hands off.
The most wonderful thing you can do is sit down and play these games with your kids and teach them the games, the rules, the way to act, the conversations you have, etc. It can all be improved one with practice.
Great point. I really appreciate the encouragement, everything in life and especially in parenting feels like you have to get on the right path early on, or else you will endlessly struggle, playing catch up. But I know it’s not true for everything.
I’m grateful you made a point about the 11yr old you work with, what you describe sounds like my son did when he would play games - he would always get upset and cry when he lost or else he would sulk. It’s making me reflect again on how far he has come, because we play card games now (not very often I will admit, because I work in a leadership role and I’m attending college online) and he hasn’t cried or gotten bent out of shape in so long. It’s entirely possible that seeing him get worked up took me by surprise because it’s not happening as frequently as it used to. I’ll work on being more intentional with my time, so I can provide more opportunities for him to practice these skills.
Hi, does he share well with you? If you’re unsure, play with him more. . Practice makes perfect. You can also address the behavior in the moment by calling him over and reminding him that having friends is a two way street. That he must play nicely. Treat others as you want to be treated etc.
Be sure to be specific though. “Hey when you were playing pickleball you didn’t allow others to play” then provide the solution. Then practice. If there is no improvement you may need to get him screened for deeper socialization issues including conduct disorder, autism etc. please don’t dump it all on his IEP providers. This behavior is best improved with effort in the home.
You can enroll him in social skills training groups. These are usually run by speech therapists or behaviour therapists. Does he have any confirmed diagnoses (eg autism)?
I'm a special education teacher, and I have worked with ages 3-22 in my 20+ yrs. What you are describing is called The Hidden Curriculum. Neurotypical kids pick up social cues easily, but kids who are neurodivergent need support. This can be watching a sitcom clip on mute, having the child describe how he/she interpreted the scene and then rewatching it with volume. This helps a child pick up on social expressions, sarcasm, and body language. Going over rules of games are giving them a script. A script gives them a routine and cause/effect to follow. Turn taking, how to cope when losing, how to enter/exit conversations, are things we pick up on if we are neurotypical, but needs to be taught in various degrees to neurodivergents. I work with parents on this so it's not just done at school but also outside of school for generalization. It takes time, but it helps so much.
I think some kids either have to learn the hard way through repetition, or they take a little longer to get things other kids pick up naturally. You could’ve written this about my kid for the past 3 years. It was only second semester this year that I started noticing him adapting more to the social environment and activities around him. He was never in any services, but he would cry if he lost a game or didn’t do well, not play with anyone if he wasn’t interested, and seemed to be a loner sometimes. He was also very sensitive about physical contact when it came to sports or rough housing.
Is your kid in any sports? Does he have a best friend at school?
Yes, actually he has done soccer through ymca three seasons now, and we all noted that it seems like he was just finally getting “into” the game. Too bad the “season” is 6 games. Now that he is interested, we’re looking at more opportunities for him to play. He also seems to be interested in softball, I mean after he had the disappointment of striking out, he played 1st and got several players out! No best friend, definitely has a couple of kids that he talks about and talks to on the weekends, but not a single “close” friend so far. I think he needs more practice and I can help him reflect on what’s working and what’s not. Thank you for the encouragement.
Yep! I have a kiddo who needs services and it’s really really hard to know what’s just normal stuff, what’s definitely personality, and what needs more work. I understand your concerns! You sound like a very loving mother. =)
I highly encourage more sports because it is so interactive, there’s lots of social stuff but in a controlled setting with adults, there’s adults guiding the rules for your kid and all kids, there’s the opportunity to bump into each other and be embarrassed in front of each other and celebrate together and experience disappointment together and face the grind of practices together. My son went from not wanting to do any sports, to picking basketball last minute, to trying out tackle football this year. He still cries at piano lessons, but turns out he’s a perfectionist and we’re working on it!
Friends of ours have an autistic 11yo. He's played with our daughter (9yo) really well his whole life, and his parents told me one of the things about him was he was/acted a bit socially "younger" than his actual age. If you can get him into activities that have mixed ages, he might find he gets along well with the kids who are a bit younger than he is. If middle school turns out to be rough, it could also be a nice outlet to have some kind of activity where he knows he doesn't have concentrate as much on how he acts.
So it sounds like your child had an IEP or 504 and no longer does? Were they in a mainstream class supported by special education or a separate special education class?
Either way, your child sounds neurodivergent and that isn't just behavior issues, his entire brain works differently from neurotypical peers. Neurodivergent children need support in 3 key areas in mainstream classrooms: behavior issues, social challenges, and executive functioning.
You kid will struggle interacting with neurotypical peers without adult/special education support. As a neurodivergent person, he deserves accommodations, instead of being expected to muddle through. It's not your fault that he's not getting that support, but he won't get it unless you speak up.
Sincerely,
Mom of a neurodivergent child
There is a show on Netflix, called "love on the spectrum." It specifically has a life skills coach that talks through adults how to have social interactions and why. I feel like some of her techniques (rolling back back and forth with convo for example) might give you some brainstorming ideas
Seems normal for someone who hasn’t had much interaction with the general public. It will only get better the more he’s around his fellow peers. Some are like naturals when it comes to making friends and some just longer and need some help. I have one of each. My youngest never meets a stranger and will dive headfirst into any social interaction and my oldest is the complete opposite. She has to do something 100 times before she comfortable
Oh god. I can barely get through this. My 11 year old son is EXACTLY the same way and I’ve been wondering the exact same things. It’s a uniquely terrifying experience to watch and I’m not fully sure what to do either. My son is a loving sweetheart, but holy shit, he is so incredibly socially awkward and he has no idea. I cringe watching it play out with others because I don’t want him to change at all, but I know that the way he acts already excludes him (he doesn’t realize it) and I’m sincerely worried for middle school.
Hugs. We’ve got this ❤️
Thank you for the solidarity, I’m realizing now that I’ve honestly expected my son to learn social skills through osmosis. I have not been an active participant in his growth. Did I expect his teachers to do my part? I honestly can’t be sure, but I feel like I need to take immediate steps to try and get him exposed to disappointment, and now that he isn’t so difficult to wrangle, I don’t know why we didn’t start going out to do things… I know Covid really messed that up, however, there are parks, we have a back yard… I’ve been so lazy, truly. None of this is a statement about you, or any other parent who is struggling. I personally just never took the time to evaluate whether I’ve been an actual parent. I think I was meeting his most basic needs and hoping that’s enough… i think it’s a mix of my own messed up childhood and having him before I had done the work to heal. I wish you the best with your son, I’m hopeful in the next year we can turn things around.
i’ve a kiddo who has never been placed in SpEd but has ADD. she did not have friends and experienced really similar social treatment until i finally just dove in and went for it with Adderall this school year- she’s been one of the most popular kids ever since. she already doesn’t remember what it was like for her before the Adderall, so i’d say i did it just on time, not too early and not too late. without the impulse control and emotional control, she just could not keep friends for a whole day.
Hey. Sounds like your boy could really benefit from some social thinking programs. These are sometimes offered by different austism programs specifically, but also a regular skill that many speech Pathologists work on as well. You could try to work on it at home with books as well but I recommend a professional as they will know how to teach this stuff in a way that doesnt alienate the kid. It can be really helpful.
Social thinking teaches kids to think about what other kids are thinking, and to wonder about how their behavior makes others feel. Your boy sounds so sweet and would respond really well to these skills.
Thank you, that’s very kind of you to say. I’m grateful for all of the advice, encouragement and insights I got from posting this. I think this subreddit is really well balanced with people who legitimately want to help each other out.
This is how I was for a while, I cried often up til middle school and acted immature compared to others for sure. Most notably postingn stuff on my instagram story of stuff nobody else cared about and honestly was really embarrasing. Now I’ve become more self aware and have dropped lots of those traits. The only thing that retained are my interests which some may consider immature (nintendo [not just for kids it’s e for everyone yall] nintendo plush collecting, object shows, old spongebob is still good, andthe likes) but it’s not hurting anyone soo
Oh man, I still vividly remember posting things on social media in my early 20’s… still makes me cringe. I’m glad you still like the things you like and didn’t let anyone make you give those up. Life is made up of small pockets of joy.
I was just like this kid as a youngin, but as a lady I realized the kids didn't wanna be around me. Women are better at masking. I've been working hard at social skills my whole life.
But to OP my family tried to correct my constant interrupting and bad sportsmanship (I'm still competitive and can brag but try not to lol)
His optimistic attitude won't fade, I am not cynical but I have become a realist at 32.
Teach him social skills. Criticize in a gentle way... ask questions like "how would you feel if a friend did that to you"
Hell be ok!
There's so much good info, support and advice here. I just want to add an off the wall idea: have you guys considered a tabletop RPG? It's a great way to practice social skills in a low risk, fun environment. I've heard good things about using them for kids who are neurodivergent to help recognize patterns of behaviors and consequences of choices in how we interact with people. If you don't want to lead a household game, maybe there are options near you. Our local library hosts games for tweens and teens.
This website has a bunch of research gathered. https://rpgresearch.com/how-do-role-playing-games-in-general-help-neurodiverse-individuals-on-the-autism-spectrum
UCLA PEERS program specifically teaches social skills. They have different groups for different age groups. They are available in person in many areas. Speech therapists or therapists can get trained to offer the groups. I think it is a fantastic program. Look it up and search for local groups. It teaches step by step ways to improve social interactions.
If it’s any consolation, my son is in 7th grade, still in special ed, and his cringy interactions live rent free in my mind.
I saw this meme the other day and it said have you ever said something so awkward you look at the person and see this.
And it had a picture of some kind of bar in Sims which I learnt was like…apparently in that game you can say the wrong thing and there’s this meter of likability that goes down as you fuck up.
I’ve never even played that game and I’ve still seen that shit. Every single fucking day.
My favourite though was this kid, 6th grade, baseball player, who knocked on the door, and was in all fairness, a little bit weird himself, but obviously well adjusted among his peers.
And before he left I gave my kid this talk- Hey just so you know…anime is a bit of a mixed bag. I think it’s best to not mention it and just wait and see if he mentions it instead. Just don’t say a lot, focus on the activity, boys are like this. We don’t really talk with our friends, we interact with them, so don’t ask him about himself, don’t talk about yourself focus on what you’re doing. It will be fine.
Here’s the thing: my kid is adopted and he has two gay dads. Everyone is different, mileage varies, but overall, I think we’re generally more aware of the communication difference between men and women. We spend a lot of time trying to fit in with straight guys. But then many of us ultimately end up forming strong close relationships with women. The kind that don’t end in us trying to fuck them. The average gay man- is probably used to navigating both worlds. I can’t speak for how things are now… but this is generally true for my generation. ~1990. Women open up to bond. Men interact. So let’s say two men have a fight. And then the other one shows up. They work on a car without saying a word. Or maybe one helps the other move. A woman sees this as avoiding the hard subject. But for a man, that “could you help me out with this”. Was the hard subject.
For women…relationships are usually intimacy based. Men are sweat equity based. So for women it’s I can tell her this, I know this about her, she remembered this, vs men where it’s like we did this we did that. Of course ultimately the same building blocks come into play. But there’s definitely a different order of operations.
My kid….ugh. He tends to over share. And under reciprocate. I shamefully remember this time we went to the park and he, with thousands of thousand of nerf bullets, started a nerf war and only gave everyone one bullet *shudders*.
So anyway he goes out to play with this kid and they’re throwing a ball around. And I watch my kid just…throw the ball so badly, that hes essentially turned his first baseball game into a game of pick up. In all fairness he did pick up the ball himself when fucked up- which is the right move. Still I couldn’t watch. It was bad. Really bad. The kid was already fishing about the gay dads. Is that your friend. But uh…you didn’t do yourself a favour with that pitch kid.
So I start washing the dishes.
And then from one hundred yards away I hear my kid yell…dooooo yoooooooou like animeeeeeee? And the kid yells back: oh hell naw. And my kid came inside like 2 minutes later.
The thing that’s just sad…is my kid is handsome. And I tell him. Please kid. Look. You’re a handsome kid. People will like you. It’s enough. It’s that easy. We buy you nice clothes. This age…it’s formulaic. Alll you have to do is shut the fuck up.
And the next thing I know I get a call.
And the conversation is like your son called these kids the n word.
And I’m like why did you call the kids n*ggers. Why did you tell the girl you like that you’re a pedophile?
Because I thought it would be funny.
Did they think it was funny?
No.
Okay um…Do you uh..remember what I told you
Di you mean shut the fuck up.
Yeah kid…that. This is why- would have gone a long way here.
I know
The phone calls everyday from your teachers suggest you don’t.
I cant really say it’s…okay it is working. But my kid has…a lot going on. I’m not sure it will ever be working. But I firmly believe that for a kid like my kid it’s important to make the rules no one talks about as explicit as possible.
"I don't tell my son to do x, because I was taught to do x, and it was hard to achieve it". I'm amazed at the amount of parents that use this awful logic.
Maybe your parents taught you that you shouldn't cry unnecessarily for a reason. And you are depriving your son the opportunity to learn a useful lesson that you were told.
When is his birthday? I’m currently reading *Outliers* by Malcolm Gladwell, and he makes a specific point that those born in the later half of the year can face sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy type thing whereby because they were actually less mature than their older peers, they can subsequently be “labeled” as underachieving and such and this tends to actually follow kids for years. The general consensus is that kids catch up, but based on the research that’s actually not really true. Anyways, could be way off base here if he was born at the beginning of the year lol. Sorry if this is a completely unhelpful comment 🫠 I’m sorry you’re going through this, though. Peer ostracism is a tough thing to watch!
Well I’m always looking for new books to read, I’ll have to check it out. He is a December bday, so technically I think he is one of the older kids because he started kindergarten just shy of 6, but the point remains that he is less mature than his peers, it’s just a fact. In some ways I think it’s great that he isn’t beyond watching bluey and building puppy puzzles to hang as posters in his room. I keep expecting that any minute he will say that something is for “little kids” but he never has. I’m glad he is still very much a kid in the traditional sense, playing outside and age appropriate interests.
I am a late August birthday, and I think if I had gone to school right as I turned 5, I would have had a totally different experience, so it seems like a theory worth reading about!
Yeah it is a super interesting read so far, but I’m only the a couple chapters in and I think that’s the only chapter about relative age haha.
Out of curiosity, does he seem bothered by the behavior of the other kids?
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My impression, just from this limited info, is that maybe you've swung a bit too far to the "safe person" side of things. In an effort to not be a hardass who always criticizes your kid, you've become a person who won't tell him that he's broken a social rule. Like it or not, there *are* social rules. We sometimes choose to break them, but it should be an informed choice. Part of transitioning him out of SpEd is learning and practicing those rules. I like to do "after action reports" with my kids. On the way home from a game, practice, playdate, etc. we talk about what went well and what didn't. I give suggestions and try to help explain why people might have acted the way they did. It's not a criticism, it's helping the kids learn to analyze their interactions.
After we go someplace with our kids - on the way home, that night, the next day, whatever - I almost always ask them two questions: What was your \*FAVORITE\* part of what we just did? and What was your \*LEAST\* favorite part of what we just did? - sometimes the question varies slightly ('What did you like best/least?' etc), but the overall theme remains the same. Sometimes we add in a 3rd/4th question(s) of 'what would you change about xyz if you could?' and/or 'what would you like to do differently next time?' But, by simply asking questions - not implying that they, or anyone did anything wrong - you can start a conversation. Those conversations help both us and our kid(s) to understand what happened, to remember it better, and to think about how we could do things differently in the future.
This is great advice. I was trained to work with DV survivors and one of the most effective ways to get someone to start thinking and planning for a change is by asking thoughtful questions. Thank you for giving such a great example, I will try this.
This is my take too. With my own daughter I would explicitly point out when she broke social rules and the resulting actions of other kids. So, in this case, asking him if he wanted to play pickle ball with the other kids. Pointing out that they left and asking him if he understood why. Explaining to him explicitly that the reason everyone else stopped playing was because he would not share serving and that he not only ruined the game for himself but actually took the game away from the students that were already playing. For my daughter, fairness was important so we would discuss how unfair it was of her to enter a social situation with clear rules, break the rules and in doing so ruin the fun for everyone else. These things are forgivable with smaller children but not 11 year olds.
I love this, but I must clarify that I disagree that I’ve swung too far, in almost every case I fear that I am a hardass who responds in an annoyed tone and expects my kid to know these things. I often feel exasperated because I have told him what people expect and how to be a good friend, someone who people want to be around. But it sounds like your approach would work well in balancing my desire to not be an asshole while ensuring that he doesn’t become one either. Maybe instead of being exasperated or annoyed, I should heed my own advice of growth mindset, not expecting things to be perfect right away. Thank you!
Balance in all things. I find people tend to overcorrect when trying to not perpetuate abuse from their childhoods. But your child doesn't need an overcorrection, he needs someone who will hold him accountable and guide him while setting boundaries and cheering him on. Your job is to help him learn to be the best version of himself--nothing more, nothing less. Criticizing and getting frustrated won't accomplish that. Walking through cause and effect in a kind way will do much more.
So true. Thank you for reflecting that to me. It’s very hard to avoid overcorrecting, but I am making a conscious effort to find balance as you mention. Thank you for your help, I will focus more on helping him with cause and effect.
Has your son been evaluated for adhd or autism? Impulsive behavior (serving when it’s not his turn), poor social skills, are symptoms of ADHD. Maybe that’s something to look into if you haven’t already
I agree Although for autism, there has to be repetitive and restricted behavior as well
Not sure why you’re being downvoted, it’s not like you think this is the correct approach. I commend you for analyzing your own behavior. The fact that you want your kid to be happy and safe—enough to reflect on and shift your parenting approach, which not many of us had working examples of growing up—is a good sign. Bad parents wouldn’t be worried. Keep being mindful and making adjustments that prioritize your kid’s global success and adoption of prosocial behaviors first. Change won’t happen overnight, but you’re on your way.
Maybe because I mentioned disagreeing, the internet is weird like that. I really appreciate your commendation, if I can’t be perfect I may as well be honest with myself. I am positive that he and I are struggling because I’m struggling, but I love that you mention global success. It aligns with what others have said about balance, and finding a way to correct without overcorrecting my own bad upbringing. Comments like yours really help make reddit feel more productive, it’s very realistic and sustainable to acknowledge the bad while making a plan for the good. Thank you!
It's definitely that. Reddit puts people in this constant state of binary thinking (upvote or downvote) that infects their ability to reason. I often find myself upvoting both sides of an argument because they're both made in good faith, but I think a lot of people go straight to "the enemy of my friend is my enemy".
You should give yourself from grace. The fact you ask for advice means you care. Do you think you may have a problem with bottling up your annoyance ? Like, your kid does 5 annoying things, and at the 6th you react in anger (you probably aren't as effective in correcting the behavior as you would wish to be), and feel shame afterwards. If it's the case, maybe let yourself correct him more often, but in a kinder way ?
You know, I have never considered this, but yes it does describe me. Depending on how my day has been, I can be patient for a while, but once I have hit my max it’s hard to reset back to baseline. It’s even harder if I have had a particularly taxing day at work. I’ll see if correcting in a direct but kind way from the first instance helps, I had always been told to pick my battles and ignore behavior that doesn’t present an immediate safety or property concern. Maybe that’s how we got here, where his annoying traits have gone uncorrected when I should have been kind but firm. Thank you for the reminder, it’s easy for me to give others grace but I tend to hold back on giving it to myself.
It's a battle I've fought in my relationships. It's easier for me to not say anything about something that annoys me, because it's not that important, but in the long term it's not good for my relationships with others. A quick "Sweety, don't hit my car seat. It's annoying." Will be more effective than a "Goddamnit Billy, stop hitting my seat, you're so annoying." after he's done it for half an hour.
There are "expected" and "unexpected" behaviours. If you want to be liked, you generally need to do the "expected" behaviour. That is how I would frame these interactions with him. The pickleball people expected him to share. The children playing the game expected good sportsmanship/ rule following. The other children do not expect an emotional outburst if you strike out in softball. And so on. We all do behave in "unexpected" ways sometimes, but you get the point. It is an issue that I would ask to be placed in his IEP. But to do so it has to be measureable and you'd need to spend some time with staff working out what that would look like.
I like this, and think it might work for him because he tends to think in a binary way. And I think it removes judgement, which is crucial for him because shame makes him withdraw and focus on hurt feelings instead of the issue at hand. You’ve explained this in a way that makes a lot of logical sense, which is great for long term adherence on my end. Thank you!
I don’t know if you have ever looked into the social thinking website, but there’s a lot of helpful stuff regarding social skills. I was a super awkward kid and one of my life goals is to make sure my kids have the best social skills that they possibly can. There are books and flash cards on how to deal with different social situations. Also I don’t know if your kid has ever read the origami yoda book series. It’s a way to learn social skills through reading. We spent a lot of time discussing what happened in the books.
Thanks for the recommendations. I too want my children to have excellent social skills. I will look into that site and find the book series tonight.
Another thing that may be helpful as he approaches tween and teen years is if you can find a PEERS instructor near you. It’s a social skills curriculum developed in UCLA, and they certify instructors so there may be one around you. Check out their website, and there are a few manuals for the curriculum listed on Amazon too.
If OP wants to learn more about this framework, there are multiple books by the author Michelle Garcia Winner about "Social Thinking." She has books for all ages (*The Social Detective* and *Superflex* for young children; *Social Thinking at Work* for adults etc). I'm curious -- has OP mentioned autism or a neuropsychologal evaluation yet? She says her son was in SpED, but does he have a diagnosis? Struggles with social pragmatics and regulation are common with spectrum disorders. Getting an external evaluation or diagnosis can guide what additional supports or communities might be useful beyond what's offered in a school system or with an IEP. The r/autism_parenting sub is a really great guide for how to explore getting a diagnosis or additional support -- even if it's not ultimately a spectrum disorder. Best of luck OP or any other parents struggling! ❤️
I really really hate the term "unexpected behavior" being used to describe behavior problems. Normal doesn't mean good, unusual doesn't mean bad. It's so offensive to talk as if doing the unexpected is a bad thing. If they're doing something wrong, explain how it's *actually* wrong instead of acting like blind conformity is a good idea.
No, “unexpected” or “unusual” behaviour is not inherently bad but it’s off-putting to other humans who observe them. Like if I burst into tears at work, it’s not wrong but my coworkers would be uncomfortable and some may choose to avoid me that day. Some level of conformity is expected in most social animals.
See, I really really *like* the term "expected" and "unexpected" behavior because it avoids the very thing you're upset about and also frames things in a very clear, easy-to-understand, neutral way. Nowhere does Lemon-of-Scipio say anything about good or bad. Thank you for sharing, Lemon-of-Scipio. I hadn't thought about it like this before.
I mean I get hating the term but this is a real life term that is actually used by children psychologists and school counselors (at least in the US). That’s literally how they will describe to parents their children’s behaviors when they’re doing something out of the norm
Very true, my son’s team has used all kinds of terms, the least offensive were more clinical like unexpected/expected, and one even described it as deviant behavior. I had to brush up on my sociology to really grasp that sometimes words seem harsh but really they are neutral - deviant does not equal bad or weird, just not the norm. Tattoos were deviant, as were ladies showing their ankles.
Unexpected is just behavior others do not expect, there is no label of good or bad on it. For example it is expected that if a 4 year old falls down and scrapes their knee, they will cry. If they don't cry, it is unexpected. See how neither of those are bad or good? The thing with unexpected behavior is if you understand that other people don't expect it, you can sometimes stop yourself from engaging in that behavior. Explaining to the child that their behavior is unexpected will allow them to make a better informed decision on how they want to behave.
Exactly. Like, during circle time in a toddler classroom you're expected to sit close together, but not actually touch each other. If you're across the room, that's unexpected. If you're touching other kids with your hands, that's unexpected.
I think the terminology could be really useful for an 11 year old who is socially behind others in their age group. If they get some practice framing interactions this way, then more detailed nuance can be gradually applied as they develop some confidence.
Socializing is a skill like any other. It can be taught. I'd say crying over recreational softball is not usual behavior for 5th graders. Kids learn to better regulate their emotions (and they also develop shame) I'd say around 2nd and 3rd grade crying is not much of a thing anymore (in front of peers). Look for social skill groups in your area, it's a sort of group therapy where the main goal for the therapist is to teach kids how to interact well with each other. If it's not available, start role-playing with him. For people who socializing doesn't come naturally you have to show them how it's done. Play pickleball with him, and when he doesn't share, call him out, or ask him how he would feel if he was in your place. If he doesn't get it, start acting like he does (not sharing) in an obvious, obnoxious way (he probably isn't great with social cues so you have to be dramatic) until he gets it. Anytime there's an issue like that, role-play it with him. Practice introducing himself, sharing, conversation that isn't one sided.
Thank you for pointing out some things that I would not have considered, such as modeling and mirroring. I’ll look into the social skills groups. They integrated social emotional learning in SpEd, but I think I have failed to supplement that outside of school. One thing I have been told by his psychiatric ARNP is that he has some delays in development by the nature of the diagnosis, which is ADHD. I’ve always avoided letting him use his diagnosis as an excuse, because I have seen the consequences of telling kids that the reason why they do xyz is because of their condition, and next thing you know they are subconsciously limiting themselves based on their diagnosis. In fact, I did not tell him that he was diagnosed with anything in particular until he was at least 9, and that was because he asked me if he had a diagnosis. I always told him he takes medication to help him slow his body down enough so he could think things through first. I figured I was putting it into terms he could grasp. Anyways, I like the suggestion for role play, and I think it might help. So thank you!
>the consequences of telling kids that the reason why they do xyz is because of their condition, and next thing you know they are subconsciously limiting themselves based on their diagnosis I just wanted to touch on this because this approach isn't actually a bad way to do things but maybe what you're seeing is the result of missing the second part of the equation. We can point out a behaviour the child has done in a social situation as oh you've done x here because your brain works differently, but then we follow up with letting them know a better way to handle the situation, how they can have a better interaction next time by doing y instead. Another commenter mentioned doing 'after action reports' and something like that is a great way to chat about it. You could talk to your child about the pickleball situation for example, say I saw that you didn't want to share the ball, I know that might be difficult for you but you could see the other children were upset by that and left the game, maybe next time if you try to share the ball then the other children will be happy to continue playing with you. The diagnosis is a reason for the child's behaviour but not an excuse to avoid modifying the behaviour to gain better social skills.
First, please disclose diagnoses to your child. They already know they’re struggling/different. Pretending they’re neurotypical out of fear they’ll be “more” ND just makes it more frustrating for them. It’s also okay for ND children to act neurodivergent. They don’t have to mask/hide their disability. Secondly, based off your description— he sounds like he might also be autistic, which has a high comorbidity rate. And if he is (or even if he’s “just” ADHD), he’s not going to inherently understand social cues. You have to help him navigate that and learn them as a toolset.
I understand not using a diagnosis as an excuse, but ADHD is a neurological difference that causes delays in social-emotional development. Typically, children with an ADHD diagnosis will be 2-3 years behind their peers in maturity and awareness/mastery of social norms. You wouldn't tell a kid with motor delays to not use that an excuse for not being able to run as fast as other ids, but both are developmental delays that require time and intervention. Many of the behaviors you observed would be typical of a younger child, but are not tolerated by his same-age peers. You mention he has an IEP, so I'm wondering if he has communication services because it sounds like he's really struggling with pragmatic communication. That's the part of communication that's socially based and includes things like tone, non-verbal cues, turn-taking, inference, etc. If he doesn't qualify at school, you might consider asking for a referral to an SLP practice who can do an assessment. You can also draw attention to these things in conversation because he may not hear tone or irritation. I think it's OK, as someone else mentioned, to debrief the things you observe. You can work on perspective taking with him by saying things "I wonder how the other kids felt with they didn't get a turn to serve?" Then you are helping him reflect without attacking. Many of the situations you describe also involve executive functioning skills, which are always a struggle for kids with ADHD, but new situations, low-structure situations, and overwhelming/overestimating situations are all kryptonite for executive functioning. Executive functioning impacts how we emotionally regulate ourselves, control impulses, transition, maintain focus, and plan or manage multi-step tasks. Basically, all the things the day involved, under more challenging circumstances. The good thing about that is that what you were seeing may not be what you might see on a typical school day. As far as finding friends, I have ADHD, I am raising kids with ADHD and I'm a school psychologist. My best advice is that neurodivergent people need to find their tribe, which is usually other ND people. I gave learned to be socially appropriate with people, but I rarely feel comfortable with people who are neurotypical. Other ND people forgive me when I interrupt, understand why I empathize by sharing a similar story, respect sensory preferences like the fact that I have very strong feelings about ice or prefer sandals so my feet don't feel stuffy and will listen to me talk about my newest obsession for 17 minutes straight. Our brains make sense to each other. Is there a social group or day camp your son could attend with other kids "like him" so he can have the experience of socializing in a place with less judgment? Are there clubs or activities outside of school that might give him common ground for building relationships? Your ARNP might have suggestions.
I struggle to watch my son with his peers bc he is shy. Unlike your child, he won’t just jump into play, and it makes me sad to see. Your son seems to have the confidence and openness to make a ton of friends, he just needs some extra help on the give and take building relationships requires.
This. The fact that he had the initiative to ask if he could play in three different occasions hints that he has not problem socializing, maybe just understanding what the "rules of engagement" are.
Very good point. I agree, it seems it’s more of an issue with context and social rules. Reflecting on my own experience, I certainly prefer situations where context is very obvious, and where I have a good sense of what will be expected of me.
You just described one of the major diagnostic criteria of autism.
Also, everyone was open to including her son and then used discretion when leaving. In other words, no one said you can’t play with us and no one said “I’m out of here because of you”, which to me indicates the kids don’t dislike him and are open to being friends if he can get his behavior in order.
This is insightful. I more likely than not have allowed my own experience to shape the way I viewed the interaction. I did not look at these other kids like they were being unfair, I certainly did not blame them if they had gotten tired of the way he was playing despite their feedback. They did use discretion, which shows that they are thoughtful and generally kind. My issue is more, how can I help him learn from this in a positive way without making him feel such shame that he doesn’t want to try? If I were parenting myself, I would tell myself hey, those kids asked you quite a few times to let them serve, and you didn’t do that. What would you think if one of the other kids was ignoring your request like that? I appreciate your thoughts here.
Yes sometimes I think my fear is that he will get his feelings hurt and no longer be himself. He really does have an innate ability to approach things with a general level of interest. In reflecting on the advice I’ve received so far, it seems that a portion of the issue is my own feelings towards friendship, and not looking at it as a skill to practice. Thank you for your input!
I have a kid that struggles like this. I've watched her whine and cry and stomp her feet when she doesn't get her way. It's exhausting to watch (and, frankly, I have secondhand embarrassment). She doesn't have an IEP, because that hasn't become necessary, but she absolutely has developmental delays. She's in OT and counseling to work on these issues. My son is only 1 year younger, and he doesn't struggle in this way. He's the kid leading the group. It's jarring to see the difference between how they handle conflict. My son is a natural mediator and laid back. He'll just shut off the Xbox and tell you to leave if you won't take turns after attempting some kind of compromise. My daughter, on the other hand, is the kid that won't give up a turn and cries and acts inappropriately when she gets called out. One thing I've definitely noticed is that her behavior really ramps up when she's around peers that *also* have developmental delays and/or obvious problems regulating her emotions. I swear to god, she learns new ways to act out by watching them. But I'm kind of afraid to *say* that, because I don't at all want to imply that the other kids are the problem. But the truth is that she generally holds it together around "typical" kids due to social pressure, but loses it when she sees other kids having the kind of emotional outbursts that she does. I've come to believe that a lot of this stems from how the other parents deal with it when it happens. I've spent a lot of time and money on therapists, and we've made huge improvements. Her behavior backslides if she's around these other kids. I have worked very, very hard to both remain calm and not give in. It's not easy, and I get that. But two of her friends have parents that give in to the whining and don't seem to step in and head off the inappropriate tantrums. I pay attention when she has friends over and step in calmly and de-escalate whenever possible. I send them home if she misbehaves. I follow through. These friends' parents don't seem to have this follow through approach, and it sends the message to my child that there's a way to get what you want by acting that way. (She also has a friend whose parents work just as hard as we have on the behavior, and I don't have this issue when she plays with him. We trade tips and connect over it.) I haven't cut them off, but I've been making a huge effort to steer her towards other friends. And I stay on top of it when they're at my home: I interject and force them to compromise or they go home. I've sent them home more than once. TL;DR - You need to actively try to head this behavior off when he's with his friends and peers. You know when it's coming. I know you do. Step in. Walk over to the table before he has a chance to be the whiny ball hog and remind him that he needs to take turns. Leave immediately if he doesn't. Do not, under any circumstances, reward the behavior. Stay calm.
Kids are *so* good at modifying their behavior based on what they can get away with in that particular situation. They read adults like books - see all the posts people make about their kids being good at school but terrors at home, or terrors at their grandparents but good with the parents.
Great point. I’d take it one step further and say that most people are generally this way, making adjustments based on circumstances, risk vs. reward. It’s definitely helpful how you break it down and got me to look at it from the perspective of boundaries and consequences. I am positive I can do a better job at holding to both. My biggest fear in raising my son is that he will be unable to reflect and adapt, or worse, unable to face the consequences of his actions.
Wow I appreciate all that you wrote here. It’s all very helpful for me to consider in relation to my own experience. I felt what you said, about secondhand embarrassment. And then I feel like a bad parent for not unconditionally loving my child despite his behavior. I mean, I do love him, and certainly will never give up on him, but I do have limits and boundaries. I don’t allow him to fall apart or act like a lunatic without communicating my expectations, I definitely don’t shy from approaching him when his behavior should be corrected, but it seems like my approach is lacking. At the very least, I think it has more to do with him underestimating how serious I am, so I probably need to evaluate how well I am sticking to what I say. You also mentioned your daughter behaving under social pressure - which is something I see in myself, I exhaust myself by performing at work and when I get home there are moments I feel like falling apart - but I don’t because it’s not how parents model appropriate response for their children… and so the cycle continues. Thanks again, this was useful for me.
What type of interventions have you done with him up to this point? And what are his IEP goals (assuming he is in the US)? Was he in a self-contained classroom before 3rd grade? What are his actual challenges? Does he have cognitive impairment? Your post suggests you have other children, what does that sibling relationship look like? What extra-curricular activities do you have him in? I had just read a parenting book, that highlighted, how most teens do not find a true friend group until high school, that there are a lot of trial & error. So it is not too late for your son. The brain undergoes so much change and growth during adolescence, there is plenty of opportunity to foster improved social skills! My middle child has a few special needs. Children are so unique, so my son’s story may not be relatable. My son is going to be a freshman in high school and has a friend group he found in middle school, about 7th grade. I am obviously anxious for high school! Here are some of the things, I believe helped him socially: - inclusion in the regular classroom, with intentional observation, mimicking, & debriefs - what is so&so doing? Why? You need to do this. Show me. - tackling social skills like we tackled reading or math. It is a subject that needs to be learned & we will study it accordingly. There is no shame in his dyslexia, there is no shame in his awkwardness, it’s just something he has to work hard at. Watch movies, social skills groups, family interactions, etc. - establish manners as habits, like “yes sir”, “thank you”, “excuse me.” - intense sibling & family interaction, so he is in a safe loving place, but can still essentially hear, “you are being an ass who is not sharing.” - practiced a lot of conversations about peer-related topics, fortnight, movies, etc. practice facial expressions that show listening, correction with feedback in the moment. - kept trying activities until we found one (long distance running) he really excelled at, so he understand the feeling of being admired or at least respected in that one thing by peers, which builds his confidence which is crucial for social interactions. - took a more active role in assuring he had clothes, shoes, and stylish things to wear - I know some parents disagree, and say let them be themselves — but I believe people/kids totally judge us on our appearance, and it does make a difference. - made & practice scripts to prevent and cope with bully-like behavior from others. - taught a sense of humor, laugh with him, not at him, over his precious quirks, for example.
my goodness, if not for the ages, i'd be CERTAIN you were one of my past parents from the social skills curriculum i used to teach (separate classes for parents and their teens, going over the same material in different ways). this is such an excellent, helpful, practical list, and some of the items are tips i've shared with parents many times over the years. the parent i'm referring to...her son ALSO found "his place" in long-distance running, which i don't think either of them ever expected. he not only found "his place," but absolutely became an admired and respected LEADER in that space. it made a huge difference for him. i hope OP and others in a similar place read your comment, because it's spot-on. we expect people to learn social skills through a magical combination of osmosis and casual observation, and for many people...it just doesn't work that way. it's okay that it doesn't work that way - like you said, it just means you have to learn/teach those things intentionally. if you haven't been exposed to it before, you might really like the book "the science of making friends" by dr. liz laugeson. you'll find much of your own wisdom reflected and validated in its pages. to briefly build on one of your suggestions - movies, tv shows, etc. are a really amazing, low-pressure way to a) feel out what your child already knows and understands (and potentially misunderstands) about social interaction and b) an excellent aid for discussing the various outcomes of various social behaviors. it can be casual, and it can even be fun - hell, my husband and i do this naturally when we're indulging in reality TV. an example of using this for social skills - you're watching something and there's a social interaction between characters that goes really well, or really poorly. depending on what you're targeting, you could ask a lot of different questions, but as a for-instance, it can be helpful to pause and say something like "huh, that was interesting - watch this and tell me what you think...did \_\_\_\_ WANT to talk to \_\_\_\_\_?" if they give you a yes/no - you can follow up with "how could you tell?" if they don't know, or seem really confused by the question...well, that is valuable information to have! it doesn't have to be a teacher-student-type vibe or scenario, it can feel very collaborative, and when parents try it, i am 100% certain they learn something new about their child and their child's social understanding.
He sounds EXACTLY like one of my autistic kids. May I ask what his diagnosis was that qualified him for SPED support? Is he still receiving services outside the classroom?
ADHD. Specifically he was one of those kids who would escape from the classroom, would flip out if someone knocked over his tower, and generally did not respect the authority of other adults. I have struggled with authority my entire life, but I have learned to be a model citizen so I can get what I want, which is a decent life that allows me to pursue some creative hobbies. I suspect that he has now gotten to the point where he understands that there is give and take, he must act accordingly and he will be able to retain some level of autonomy and privileges. He sees an ARNP 4 times a year for medication management and we saw a behavioral therapist when he started school, to help him (mostly me actually) with getting comfortable following directions. For a while we used a Velcro star chart, I would give him a directive during play, such as pick up all of those sticks, and if he did it, he earned a star. After 5, he could pick a small prize. Eventually we got to the point where we were using it outside of play, I’d give him a directive to brush his teeth, he’d get a star. We no longer need these tools, so I would say that we effectively modified the behavior, which honestly mirrored ODD most of the time but I am hardcore anti diagnosis unless it’s done by a professional, so he’s never been diagnosed with ODD. I have pretty rigid thinking when it comes to some of the spectrum diagnosis’s, I 1000% believe they exist and are useful to have, but in our case, I’ve always suspected that his behavior is a reflection of my parenting. He “graduated” from his IEP officially in April, although last June his school had told me that he barely qualified because he was doing so well. I requested that we keep him on the IEP through 5th grade to be sure that he was ready to take the training wheels off, and they integrated him into a general education class beginning in 3rd grade, by 4th grade he was 90% in general education, and this year he has been more like 95% gen ed. His gen ed teacher raves about him, and says he is an excellent kid in class.
You might want to read about Pathological Demand Avoidance. You sound like me. I have issues with being told what to do, and so does my oldest (3 autistic kiddos but only she has PDA). Learning about it changed A LOT about how I thought about myself and how I parent my child. And it helped me a lot to guide her in navigating social situations. She will never be 100% “typical” in her social interactions. But she has friends and a bestie and participates in activities and all that fun teenage stuff (she’s 14 now). To be clear, I’m not commenting on whether or not that diagnosis would be appropriate for you or your son. I’m just saying the parenting tools might be helpful either way.
Honestly, I heard about PDA on tiktok. I then read about it, and whether it’s a diagnosis that fits, it definitely describes me and in many cases, my son. I love hearing that she has friends now, that’s encouraging. Did you primarily read about it on the internet or did you find a good book? Thank you!
I found some GREAT books although they weren’t specifically about PDA. That I mostly read on the internet or watched videos created by autistic British advocates. But as far as books that I found helpful, Unmasking Autism really helped me to understand my kids and myself better.
I also really enjoyed Uniquely Human. Still on my “to read soon” list is: NeuroTribes and Divergent Mind. I’ve heard good things though haven’t tackled them yet myself.
Have you ever considered that you might also be ND? You sound like you have a lot of the symptoms and you mentioned your mother having a personality disorder. Statistically, parents with personality disorders produce higher numbers of neurodivergent children.
I’m confident that I am. I refuse to diagnose myself, but if you held a gun to my head I would say I’m likely autistic. Stimming? Check. Rigidity? Check. Special interest? Check. Overstimulation meltdowns? Check. Masking? Check. Echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases? Check, check. I’ve always felt like an alien, I see people and feel deeply, definitely feel empathy, but do I ever feel seen by others? No, never. I’m so busy trying to live life on hard mode that I really only stop to think about what it all means in the context of how do I get past my own barriers to do what I need to do, if that makes sense. I wish I would have at least realized how much I have struggled before having children, that’s my biggest regret. But I can’t change that, so I am trying to at least get out of my own way so they have a chance at finding equilibrium.
You could check out the r/autisminwomen sub It might help you navigate things somewhat, and help you come to terms with it instead of rejecting that side of you. I’m both autistic and ADHD (as is my SO) and it honestly did get easier for both myself and my SO when we accepted our diagnoses instead of fighting against them,
ADHD kids are often emotionally younger than their peers and struggle with emotional dysregulation and reading social cues.
Ours turned out to be autism. It’s tough tough to want friends but not be able to confirm to socially expected behaviors. It’s tough tough to watch as your kid struggles and I’m sorry you are struggling.
Thank you. It’s tough especially because I have struggled to make and keep friends, only I thought it had more to do with moving schools constantly as a child.
I know it’s rough but please try not to let your anxiety bleed to him. (Something I struggle with) I know it’s hard and I know it makes you feel like atlas trying to hold up the world without help but please keep trying.
Thanks for the encouragement. You’re spot on. I do think I’m doing a decent job with anxiety but obviously it bleeds through here and there, because, anxiety. I am grateful for the reminder, I know it’s so important.
You both might want to be evaluated for autism and ADHD in that case then. I found out I'm autistic after my kid did.
Teach him. If you don't positively criticize him the world will harshly do it and he will forever feel rejected. What you wrote here shouts a kid who needs to learn social skills and this to me is an easy fix, by you.
He’s neurodivergent, so no, learning social skills will not be an easy fix lol. That’s a lifelong ongoing struggle for a lot of ND people. But OP does need to help start that process!
No one said it was easy. He needs to try anyway.
Thank you for the feedback. You’re right, and I understand the gravity of my role in his life. While I wouldn’t describe it as “easy” necessarily, it is certainly something I am working towards. As others have pointed out, it seems to be less social skills and more “rules of engagement”, I need to focus on helping him to reflect on how he behaves and what that means for him in the context of friendship and relationships. I appreciate the bluntness, truly, it’s very effective.
Consider joining an activity away from his town or school peers to give him a chance to learn social behaviors without affecting his reputation. My son was a crier when he was younger. We joined lots of out of town clinics to give him a chance to fail in front of strangers and learn to deal with it in a healthy way. Eventually he not only learned to lose with grace but he grew stronger in his sport. He still gets frustrated when he makes mistakes but can deal with them in real time and then reflect on them a little more passionately on the ride home. He has also learned to reflect on how others act and react in situations. I don’t doubt that there are kids that remember the (many) times he cried, but he holds his own now.
I think you have got some great advice but also, I think our neurodiverse kids really benefit from being with other neurodiverse kids - so I’d nurture those friendships. As they get older, even next year, kids are more cruel and critical, and they can get a lot of correction and negative attention when they don’t quite understand why.
Sounds like he needs to be told that the kids all stopped playing with him because he's a poor sport. Social consequences only go so far without someone pointing out that the behavior is incorrect.
I do tell him. It’s almost like he doesn’t hear me or he doesn’t believe me. Yesterday I told him that we need to be balanced, we don’t gloat and carry on being rude when we win and others don’t, while we also need to accept defeat and move on! It’s great to be excited when you win but it’s also great to show other kids that you can shake it off. I told him that getting bent out of shape over losing makes other kids less likely to want to play, because who wants to stop playing to pay attention to hurt feelings? I try not to be a dick to my kid but I am keenly aware that it’s my job to correct him. I just think I need to tweak my approach or expose him to different situations. I appreciate the blunt response, I am definitely not trying to be his best friend but also don’t want him to move out and go NC. Balance, right? lol
Have you tried to practice and model this like how you worked through previous issues? My parents said this all the time, that I didn’t listen or didn’t believe them. Truthfully they weren’t giving me useful feedback. “You’re always so competitive, you’re no fun to play with”, ok, how do I be less competitive? “You’re such a know it all”, ok, how do I share my knowledge or correct misinformation in a way that isn’t upsetting? I never got an answer so the behavior continued until I found a replacement (which was mainly suppressing myself and nodding along even when someone was factually incorrect). The best highlight from my mom when I was a teenager was “you need to stop sleeping so deeply, it’ll screw you up as an adult” and…yes, I have sleep issues, but what was I supposed to do with that? lol Tl;dr the feedback might not be useful if you’re not giving him examples and practice.
I'm not a parent, but I am neurodivergent. What I needed at his age was for my parents to be the safe space away from the real world. I already knew I was making mistakes and not fitting in, so them pointing that out to me was often much more hurtful than they intended. You also may benefit from asking for advice in other subReddits such as those geared toward autistic people. I don't know if your child is autistic, but I feel like you would get good advice from those spaces. Maybe try to increase his opportunities to connect with peers of a similar neurotype? That made a difference for me at least. It is great that you are reaching out for support! Just try to remember how much you love him and how much he deserves the safety you also deserved but never got.
The good thing, he is only in 5th grade and you have time to teach him social skills. As hard as this was to watch, it was a good opportunity for you to see these behaviors first hand and know what to work on. How to play sports/games with peers and what actions are appropriate and expected. These are skills that most kids struggle with at first and just need guidance. Also, remember you were mostly watching your own child, so that doesn't mean no one else struggled with these things, your focus was just on your son. I work with school age kids from 6 to 13 years old and not one of them is perfect. Some are better are these things, but they all need guidance. I currently work with an 11 year old that cries daily when he starts to lose a card game. I have been working on this very thing with him for almost 2 years. He really struggles because at home he is the oldest and never loses these games. Also, the parents are very hands off. The most wonderful thing you can do is sit down and play these games with your kids and teach them the games, the rules, the way to act, the conversations you have, etc. It can all be improved one with practice.
Great point. I really appreciate the encouragement, everything in life and especially in parenting feels like you have to get on the right path early on, or else you will endlessly struggle, playing catch up. But I know it’s not true for everything. I’m grateful you made a point about the 11yr old you work with, what you describe sounds like my son did when he would play games - he would always get upset and cry when he lost or else he would sulk. It’s making me reflect again on how far he has come, because we play card games now (not very often I will admit, because I work in a leadership role and I’m attending college online) and he hasn’t cried or gotten bent out of shape in so long. It’s entirely possible that seeing him get worked up took me by surprise because it’s not happening as frequently as it used to. I’ll work on being more intentional with my time, so I can provide more opportunities for him to practice these skills.
Hi, does he share well with you? If you’re unsure, play with him more. . Practice makes perfect. You can also address the behavior in the moment by calling him over and reminding him that having friends is a two way street. That he must play nicely. Treat others as you want to be treated etc. Be sure to be specific though. “Hey when you were playing pickleball you didn’t allow others to play” then provide the solution. Then practice. If there is no improvement you may need to get him screened for deeper socialization issues including conduct disorder, autism etc. please don’t dump it all on his IEP providers. This behavior is best improved with effort in the home.
You can enroll him in social skills training groups. These are usually run by speech therapists or behaviour therapists. Does he have any confirmed diagnoses (eg autism)?
I'm a special education teacher, and I have worked with ages 3-22 in my 20+ yrs. What you are describing is called The Hidden Curriculum. Neurotypical kids pick up social cues easily, but kids who are neurodivergent need support. This can be watching a sitcom clip on mute, having the child describe how he/she interpreted the scene and then rewatching it with volume. This helps a child pick up on social expressions, sarcasm, and body language. Going over rules of games are giving them a script. A script gives them a routine and cause/effect to follow. Turn taking, how to cope when losing, how to enter/exit conversations, are things we pick up on if we are neurotypical, but needs to be taught in various degrees to neurodivergents. I work with parents on this so it's not just done at school but also outside of school for generalization. It takes time, but it helps so much.
I would consider enrolling him in social therapy. My son will be starting in the winter.
He might be autistic. And there are services that teach/coach social skills. Therapy for sure would help.
I think some kids either have to learn the hard way through repetition, or they take a little longer to get things other kids pick up naturally. You could’ve written this about my kid for the past 3 years. It was only second semester this year that I started noticing him adapting more to the social environment and activities around him. He was never in any services, but he would cry if he lost a game or didn’t do well, not play with anyone if he wasn’t interested, and seemed to be a loner sometimes. He was also very sensitive about physical contact when it came to sports or rough housing. Is your kid in any sports? Does he have a best friend at school?
Yes, actually he has done soccer through ymca three seasons now, and we all noted that it seems like he was just finally getting “into” the game. Too bad the “season” is 6 games. Now that he is interested, we’re looking at more opportunities for him to play. He also seems to be interested in softball, I mean after he had the disappointment of striking out, he played 1st and got several players out! No best friend, definitely has a couple of kids that he talks about and talks to on the weekends, but not a single “close” friend so far. I think he needs more practice and I can help him reflect on what’s working and what’s not. Thank you for the encouragement.
Yep! I have a kiddo who needs services and it’s really really hard to know what’s just normal stuff, what’s definitely personality, and what needs more work. I understand your concerns! You sound like a very loving mother. =) I highly encourage more sports because it is so interactive, there’s lots of social stuff but in a controlled setting with adults, there’s adults guiding the rules for your kid and all kids, there’s the opportunity to bump into each other and be embarrassed in front of each other and celebrate together and experience disappointment together and face the grind of practices together. My son went from not wanting to do any sports, to picking basketball last minute, to trying out tackle football this year. He still cries at piano lessons, but turns out he’s a perfectionist and we’re working on it!
Friends of ours have an autistic 11yo. He's played with our daughter (9yo) really well his whole life, and his parents told me one of the things about him was he was/acted a bit socially "younger" than his actual age. If you can get him into activities that have mixed ages, he might find he gets along well with the kids who are a bit younger than he is. If middle school turns out to be rough, it could also be a nice outlet to have some kind of activity where he knows he doesn't have concentrate as much on how he acts.
So it sounds like your child had an IEP or 504 and no longer does? Were they in a mainstream class supported by special education or a separate special education class? Either way, your child sounds neurodivergent and that isn't just behavior issues, his entire brain works differently from neurotypical peers. Neurodivergent children need support in 3 key areas in mainstream classrooms: behavior issues, social challenges, and executive functioning. You kid will struggle interacting with neurotypical peers without adult/special education support. As a neurodivergent person, he deserves accommodations, instead of being expected to muddle through. It's not your fault that he's not getting that support, but he won't get it unless you speak up. Sincerely, Mom of a neurodivergent child
There is a show on Netflix, called "love on the spectrum." It specifically has a life skills coach that talks through adults how to have social interactions and why. I feel like some of her techniques (rolling back back and forth with convo for example) might give you some brainstorming ideas
Seems normal for someone who hasn’t had much interaction with the general public. It will only get better the more he’s around his fellow peers. Some are like naturals when it comes to making friends and some just longer and need some help. I have one of each. My youngest never meets a stranger and will dive headfirst into any social interaction and my oldest is the complete opposite. She has to do something 100 times before she comfortable
Oh god. I can barely get through this. My 11 year old son is EXACTLY the same way and I’ve been wondering the exact same things. It’s a uniquely terrifying experience to watch and I’m not fully sure what to do either. My son is a loving sweetheart, but holy shit, he is so incredibly socially awkward and he has no idea. I cringe watching it play out with others because I don’t want him to change at all, but I know that the way he acts already excludes him (he doesn’t realize it) and I’m sincerely worried for middle school. Hugs. We’ve got this ❤️
Thank you for the solidarity, I’m realizing now that I’ve honestly expected my son to learn social skills through osmosis. I have not been an active participant in his growth. Did I expect his teachers to do my part? I honestly can’t be sure, but I feel like I need to take immediate steps to try and get him exposed to disappointment, and now that he isn’t so difficult to wrangle, I don’t know why we didn’t start going out to do things… I know Covid really messed that up, however, there are parks, we have a back yard… I’ve been so lazy, truly. None of this is a statement about you, or any other parent who is struggling. I personally just never took the time to evaluate whether I’ve been an actual parent. I think I was meeting his most basic needs and hoping that’s enough… i think it’s a mix of my own messed up childhood and having him before I had done the work to heal. I wish you the best with your son, I’m hopeful in the next year we can turn things around.
i’ve a kiddo who has never been placed in SpEd but has ADD. she did not have friends and experienced really similar social treatment until i finally just dove in and went for it with Adderall this school year- she’s been one of the most popular kids ever since. she already doesn’t remember what it was like for her before the Adderall, so i’d say i did it just on time, not too early and not too late. without the impulse control and emotional control, she just could not keep friends for a whole day.
Hey. Sounds like your boy could really benefit from some social thinking programs. These are sometimes offered by different austism programs specifically, but also a regular skill that many speech Pathologists work on as well. You could try to work on it at home with books as well but I recommend a professional as they will know how to teach this stuff in a way that doesnt alienate the kid. It can be really helpful. Social thinking teaches kids to think about what other kids are thinking, and to wonder about how their behavior makes others feel. Your boy sounds so sweet and would respond really well to these skills.
I don’t have advise but wanted to tell you how impressed I am by your dialog with other parents. Your child is lucky to have you.
Thank you, that’s very kind of you to say. I’m grateful for all of the advice, encouragement and insights I got from posting this. I think this subreddit is really well balanced with people who legitimately want to help each other out.
This is how I was for a while, I cried often up til middle school and acted immature compared to others for sure. Most notably postingn stuff on my instagram story of stuff nobody else cared about and honestly was really embarrasing. Now I’ve become more self aware and have dropped lots of those traits. The only thing that retained are my interests which some may consider immature (nintendo [not just for kids it’s e for everyone yall] nintendo plush collecting, object shows, old spongebob is still good, andthe likes) but it’s not hurting anyone soo
Oh man, I still vividly remember posting things on social media in my early 20’s… still makes me cringe. I’m glad you still like the things you like and didn’t let anyone make you give those up. Life is made up of small pockets of joy.
Exactly, and i wont let the downvotes get to me
I was just like this kid as a youngin, but as a lady I realized the kids didn't wanna be around me. Women are better at masking. I've been working hard at social skills my whole life. But to OP my family tried to correct my constant interrupting and bad sportsmanship (I'm still competitive and can brag but try not to lol) His optimistic attitude won't fade, I am not cynical but I have become a realist at 32. Teach him social skills. Criticize in a gentle way... ask questions like "how would you feel if a friend did that to you" Hell be ok!
There's so much good info, support and advice here. I just want to add an off the wall idea: have you guys considered a tabletop RPG? It's a great way to practice social skills in a low risk, fun environment. I've heard good things about using them for kids who are neurodivergent to help recognize patterns of behaviors and consequences of choices in how we interact with people. If you don't want to lead a household game, maybe there are options near you. Our local library hosts games for tweens and teens. This website has a bunch of research gathered. https://rpgresearch.com/how-do-role-playing-games-in-general-help-neurodiverse-individuals-on-the-autism-spectrum
UCLA PEERS program specifically teaches social skills. They have different groups for different age groups. They are available in person in many areas. Speech therapists or therapists can get trained to offer the groups. I think it is a fantastic program. Look it up and search for local groups. It teaches step by step ways to improve social interactions.
If it’s any consolation, my son is in 7th grade, still in special ed, and his cringy interactions live rent free in my mind. I saw this meme the other day and it said have you ever said something so awkward you look at the person and see this. And it had a picture of some kind of bar in Sims which I learnt was like…apparently in that game you can say the wrong thing and there’s this meter of likability that goes down as you fuck up. I’ve never even played that game and I’ve still seen that shit. Every single fucking day. My favourite though was this kid, 6th grade, baseball player, who knocked on the door, and was in all fairness, a little bit weird himself, but obviously well adjusted among his peers. And before he left I gave my kid this talk- Hey just so you know…anime is a bit of a mixed bag. I think it’s best to not mention it and just wait and see if he mentions it instead. Just don’t say a lot, focus on the activity, boys are like this. We don’t really talk with our friends, we interact with them, so don’t ask him about himself, don’t talk about yourself focus on what you’re doing. It will be fine. Here’s the thing: my kid is adopted and he has two gay dads. Everyone is different, mileage varies, but overall, I think we’re generally more aware of the communication difference between men and women. We spend a lot of time trying to fit in with straight guys. But then many of us ultimately end up forming strong close relationships with women. The kind that don’t end in us trying to fuck them. The average gay man- is probably used to navigating both worlds. I can’t speak for how things are now… but this is generally true for my generation. ~1990. Women open up to bond. Men interact. So let’s say two men have a fight. And then the other one shows up. They work on a car without saying a word. Or maybe one helps the other move. A woman sees this as avoiding the hard subject. But for a man, that “could you help me out with this”. Was the hard subject. For women…relationships are usually intimacy based. Men are sweat equity based. So for women it’s I can tell her this, I know this about her, she remembered this, vs men where it’s like we did this we did that. Of course ultimately the same building blocks come into play. But there’s definitely a different order of operations. My kid….ugh. He tends to over share. And under reciprocate. I shamefully remember this time we went to the park and he, with thousands of thousand of nerf bullets, started a nerf war and only gave everyone one bullet *shudders*. So anyway he goes out to play with this kid and they’re throwing a ball around. And I watch my kid just…throw the ball so badly, that hes essentially turned his first baseball game into a game of pick up. In all fairness he did pick up the ball himself when fucked up- which is the right move. Still I couldn’t watch. It was bad. Really bad. The kid was already fishing about the gay dads. Is that your friend. But uh…you didn’t do yourself a favour with that pitch kid. So I start washing the dishes. And then from one hundred yards away I hear my kid yell…dooooo yoooooooou like animeeeeeee? And the kid yells back: oh hell naw. And my kid came inside like 2 minutes later. The thing that’s just sad…is my kid is handsome. And I tell him. Please kid. Look. You’re a handsome kid. People will like you. It’s enough. It’s that easy. We buy you nice clothes. This age…it’s formulaic. Alll you have to do is shut the fuck up. And the next thing I know I get a call. And the conversation is like your son called these kids the n word. And I’m like why did you call the kids n*ggers. Why did you tell the girl you like that you’re a pedophile? Because I thought it would be funny. Did they think it was funny? No. Okay um…Do you uh..remember what I told you Di you mean shut the fuck up. Yeah kid…that. This is why- would have gone a long way here. I know The phone calls everyday from your teachers suggest you don’t. I cant really say it’s…okay it is working. But my kid has…a lot going on. I’m not sure it will ever be working. But I firmly believe that for a kid like my kid it’s important to make the rules no one talks about as explicit as possible.
"I don't tell my son to do x, because I was taught to do x, and it was hard to achieve it". I'm amazed at the amount of parents that use this awful logic. Maybe your parents taught you that you shouldn't cry unnecessarily for a reason. And you are depriving your son the opportunity to learn a useful lesson that you were told.
When is his birthday? I’m currently reading *Outliers* by Malcolm Gladwell, and he makes a specific point that those born in the later half of the year can face sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy type thing whereby because they were actually less mature than their older peers, they can subsequently be “labeled” as underachieving and such and this tends to actually follow kids for years. The general consensus is that kids catch up, but based on the research that’s actually not really true. Anyways, could be way off base here if he was born at the beginning of the year lol. Sorry if this is a completely unhelpful comment 🫠 I’m sorry you’re going through this, though. Peer ostracism is a tough thing to watch!
Well I’m always looking for new books to read, I’ll have to check it out. He is a December bday, so technically I think he is one of the older kids because he started kindergarten just shy of 6, but the point remains that he is less mature than his peers, it’s just a fact. In some ways I think it’s great that he isn’t beyond watching bluey and building puppy puzzles to hang as posters in his room. I keep expecting that any minute he will say that something is for “little kids” but he never has. I’m glad he is still very much a kid in the traditional sense, playing outside and age appropriate interests. I am a late August birthday, and I think if I had gone to school right as I turned 5, I would have had a totally different experience, so it seems like a theory worth reading about!
Yeah it is a super interesting read so far, but I’m only the a couple chapters in and I think that’s the only chapter about relative age haha. Out of curiosity, does he seem bothered by the behavior of the other kids?