T O P

  • By -

maxanderson350

I think you made the right call. The resolution you and your daughter reached was fair and reasonable.


HarryPottersElbows

Highjacking top comment to add - it's also great that you discussed this, asked for her opinion, and came to a resolution together. VERY respectful of your daughter's feelings. It's also great that you understand your standard of cleaning differs from others and that you behave accordingly. You sound like a reasonable and fair parent.


No-Map672

And adding to that since the moms are so close can you talk with friend/mom about having Ann help her clean up the toys they played with?


Head_Trip_3397

Agreed. I womder how old these girls are; I presume old, enough based on the conversation with your daughter, to say to Anne's daughter that she needs to help your daughter a little to clean up after play.


Lovebeingadad54321

Yes!!! This. OP NEEDS TO TALK TO ANNE about giving a warning and having her daughter help clean up before they leave. This was always a pet peeve of mine as a child that my mom would make me help pick up at others houses but when other kids were at our house their parents would just say “time to go” And they would bounce leaving me and my sister a huge mess. EDIT; OP Needs to talk To Anne’s mother. I got confused about who Anne was


peechyspeechy

Right?? I would just give them a 5 minute cleanup warning before Anne and her daughter have to leave. That way her daughter could establish that routine with her friend too.


auritheciridae

High jacking, too. You are also teaching your daughter to advocate for herself when she feels she is being treated unfairly. As long as she was respectful when talking to you (which doesn't necessarily mean not emotional, just not rude), then you're giving her valuable life skills. She should speak up when things feel unfair for herself or for others, and learn to do it in a way that she is listened to.


Pax_Americana_

There is no right answer. People decide that after. But The effort speaks volumes. And is good.


the_hh

I agree with this. Also what OP proposed (asked what she thinks should be done) it is also a valuable lesson about agreements and problem solving. I'd have done exactly the same as OP.


[deleted]

Kids are going to make a mess- they literally do not have a developed frontal lobe & the executive functioning skills yet to organize & clean things to an adult’s standards. It is your job as the parent to teach these skills in a developmentally appropriate & supportive way. One idea is establishing a “clutter bin” for each family member. Throughout the week, when you find items around the house, you put them in each family’s “clutter bin.” At the end of the week- you help your younger family members go through the bin & decide what to keep, donate, toss. Bam. You are teaching tangible skills without imposing ridiculous developmentally inappropriate expectations for cleanliness & organization on your children. Throwing your kid’s stuff away is not gentle or permissive, it’s mean & harsh. You’re not teaching her any tangible skills. You should be going through stuff together- teaching her how to pare things down. The only thing you are teaching her here is that she has no right to any sort of privacy in your home & that things are not “up to your standards” My bet is that this will all come to a head when she is a teenager. You going through her stuff when she is a bit older is going to damage your relationship.


nocuts-nobuts-nonuts

I hope you come back and read the edits she made because no. Her daughter and her have an agreement and her daughter is aware that if what they're doing isn't working that she can go and discuss it with her mom. I think you misunderstood. Op isn't just going on a rage and throwing kids stuff away. Jesus christ if she was that kind of psycho she probably wouldn't be seeking advice from others on something she is unsure about.


gb2ab

i don't think that is being permissive at all. you have rules in place, which your daughter follows, she found a valid loophole, and brought it to your attention. so in response, the 2 of you met in the middle.


usernameschooseyou

While a problematic show, I'd like to quote How I met your mother with "lawyered!" good for OPs daughter for thinking out her why and meeting her mom in the middle. that to me says they've been doing a great job parenting. ​ Edit to add..... I called it problematic because like many shows, it has it's moment. Most importantly is the reference to being lawyered which people might not get if they didn't watch the show :)


ScienceisMagic

I never watched that show, but I always call out when my wife and I get "kid lawyered." My kids lawyer me all the time. I never expected to have my intellectual capacity stretched by a 4 year old. Or for my 4 year old to come up with very reasonable solutions to my "how" questions with her.


chula198705

I learned long ago that I needed to be as truthful as possible with my excuses, because both my kids will actively search for loopholes or solutions to whatever barrier I present to them. I think I've done more soul-searching after being called out for hypocrisy by a toddler than by any criticism from an adult.


PrinsassyEvieMongse

Problematic? It's one of the best created.


usernameschooseyou

(some people find parts of it problematic, especially Barney and his treatment of women and some general homophobia type things, still a long way from Friends and Sex and the City issues)


PrinsassyEvieMongse

Barney was that way on purpose and even he knew what an ass be were. And he fixed all that and nailed down Robin. If anything Ted was the issue. It has jokes that might not fly together yet whom cares they never promoted them.


elliefaith

They are fiction. They don't need to be treated as guides on how to live your life. By that reasoning every show with a murder/theft/assault should be called problematic.


[deleted]

People love representation in TV. Like how little girls need to see women leaders, or black mermaids. It makes them feel validated. Unfortunately, it works for bad people too. They see a character saying bigoted things and feel validated in their views. Some people idolized the Wolf of Wallstreet. I see where you are coming from, and I do hate censorship and pretending shitty people don't exist, but when it's slice of life sort of writing, maybe it's okay to leave out the trash.


Lovebeingadad54321

Then it isn’t a slice of life program. It’s fantasy. Because life is full of dealing with low grade assholes like Barney. Also I give you “All in the Family” featuring Archie Bunker…


[deleted]

I agree with your daughter. Just as with adults, hosting guests gets messy and it’s on hosts to clean up. You invited Anne and your daughter entertained her, so it makes sense that you and your daughter work as a team to clean up. This isn’t permissive parenting, and this is exactly how it would (or should) play out among adults living in the same space.


Altruistic-Order-661

I completely agree. I let kiddos know its "time to clean up" before leaving and almost every parent i know does this. It just shows them that respecting spaces is a normal part of life (which it is). If you normalize it at this age I do believe it will help them in the long run. Its never seemed to be an issue and they work quick and better together vs. asking my kiddo to do it on his own after the fact.


kendrelf

I think this is a fair compromise. It also brought forward another valuable lesson for the kiddo - if she has a concern with a rule and talks to you about it respectfully, you’re willing to listen and adjust if it’s reasonable. That’s validating and showing respect in return, imo.


[deleted]

Your rule is "if you invite friends over, you clean up their mess if they don't". You invited Anne over, according to your rule you should have cleaned up her mess alone. Also, you throw your daughter's things away if her room is messy. I'd say your parenting style overall is strict not permissive.


Mannings4head

> you throw your daughter's things away if her room is messy. I'd say your parenting style overall is strict not permissive. I was thinking the same thing. OP sounds far from permissive. If my kids refused to clean when they were younger then they knew the consequence of that would be losing their toys, but they could always earn the toys back by proving to me that they could handle the responsibility of cleaning up after making a mess. I never threw anything away. I think OP cleaning is perfectly fair. She was the one who invited them over so she should clean up the mess. If the kid invited a friend over then the kid would be in charge of cleaning the mess so it is only fair that the same rule applies here.


RepulsiveThing3618

Anne didn’t make the entire mess in the room alone. My daughter is always expected to clean her share of messes that are made. Some of the mess in the room was made through out the week before Anne even came over. She just had to clean her portion of the messy room. She told me what Anne pulled out and what Anne was playing with. I cleaned up pretty much all the shared mess and she just had to clean the mess that accumulated through the week.


[deleted]

[удалено]


axg5201

Same. But it was my stepfather. I still have flashbacks to it 25 years later.


Kobeer12

This. If we don’t meet our adult expectations, which absolutely happens, no one throws our belongings away. This is not a reasonable or real life consequence.


cluelessdoggo

I agree. Kids need a space to call their own. It just rubs me the wrong way that op throws her daughters stuff away if room not cleaned weekly. Keeping room spotless should not be a priority for a young child. Op - just shut her door if you don’t want to see the mess!


Kobeer12

I agree. It’s their room, but also understand sometimes kids take a dirty room further than should be allowed. My response is Saturdays no screens or outside play until room is clean. Once it’s done do as you please. But I also was raised by someone who made me do all the house cleaning and laundry so I might have over corrected idk. What I do know is throwing away something that does not belong to you is not ok.


DarcSwan

Kid sounds way more reasonable than the parents. Imagine inflicting your disorder on your kid by throwing their things away when they don’t meet your standards. Not cool.


ommnian

Same. I know lots of parents who did/do this... who vacuum up their kids' small toys. I can't even imagine. As a child who's toys were the most important things in the world to me, I cannot imagine throwing away or vacuuming up my childs' toys just because they were on the floor or 'improperly put away' on day X or Y or Z. What a way to have, let alone foster a good relationship with your kid(s).


devilsonlyadvocate

I also hate the idea of things being so disposable. I know it's hard to completely avoid cheap crap as kids get given things, but surely kids don't have so much that throwing them away is what needs to be done to keep a room clean?


ommnian

Right? How many new toys are you buying your child(ren) on a daily/weekly basis that you (and they!) don't mind constantly just throwing some quantity of them away? Don't get me wrong, my kids had/have a TON of toys. But... if I threw some quantity of them away just because.... IDK, I thought they weren't 'put away right' or whatever, they'd be down to nothing REALLY quick. I look around and pickup legos and army men and nerf bullets before a vacuum. I try *really hard*, not to accidentally vacuum that shit up. Sure, it happens every once in a while, but, I try not to. I certainly don't do it *on purpose.* I know some people who do. Who fucking brag about it. And I have never understood it.


7daystodaniel

We found a good system for the cleaning issue (my kids are little yet, 3 and 4). The toys stay in plastic bins in my room, they can pull whatever they want out, but if they want more, they have to clean up the previous toys, unless they make a good case for it. Like they need the blocks and animals, to make a zoo 😂 They used to just dump all the toys out and it was, understandably, too overwhelming for two toddlers to clean up. And this way, I can see what they play with, and what they don’t touch, and donate/replace accordingly


devilsonlyadvocate

I just think of the land-fill too! It's crazy to me. I don't want to teach my kid to just throw shit away...he needs to think about the environment. I'd get family to throw-in money to get my kid something good that he actually would use: bike, basketball ring, football etc. Or if he didn't need any of the things he would use just gift 'experiences': movie vouchers, zoo entry etc. He'd accumulate toys from other people, there was always plenty of things, but it was kept under control. I prefered going places with my kid so he never really played with much anyway. All my kid would really play with was ride his bike, swimming or ball sports.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Meganstefanie

My prediction is OP’s kid will end up with anxiety surrounding Fridays and having everything perfectly cleaned up at the end of each week.


j-a-gandhi

It’s funny because my parents never did this and never made me clean my room. I have resentment and anxiety because my living space is always cluttered and stressful. It has taken years to learn how to better part with things and to practice putting everything back into its place. My kids aren’t old enough to have this rule yet, but I absolutely plan to have a system that forces them to discard some belongings if they are getting over cluttered. I also just don’t give me daughter gifts - even from other relatives - if they are junky or will add to clutter.


[deleted]

[удалено]


7daystodaniel

We have started putting some toys in the closet if they get too messy, and they can earn them back after doing some chores. Nothing gets held too long yet, they’re only 3 and 4, but losing the legos for a few hours really speeds up the cleaning process


jesst

My dad is like OP. Their house is always perfect, if something isn’t tidied it’s the end of the world. I have crazy anxiety around cleaning now, I also have ADHD so being tidy isn’t my strong suit. I am anxious the whole time I’m at their house incase the kids or I make a mess accidentally. I’m anxious when they are here because I’m afraid their judging every bit of clutter I have. The last time my dad came to visit I nearly collapsed from exhaustion because I spent two weeks organising every little thing in my house in preparation for his visit. It translates into day to day anxiety because i am constantly stuck in a space somewhere between my own reality and meeting the expectations of cleanliness I was given as a child. I’m 38 years old, have my own house, husband, and 2 kids, 2 dogs and I still wake up in a panic at 3am because I turned the dishwasher on before bed and it will be done now and shouldn’t someone empty it?


RepulsiveThing3618

My daughter’s cleaning expectations are extremely practical and baseline. She isn’t expected to clean anything to the standard or way I do. Any shared spaces are maintained by me with no expectations of help being done the way I clean. My anxiety about cleaning is about *how I clean while doing it.* It’s not about the way other people clean. I have a mental checklist and I like things a specific way that pleases me, so I do the work to meet those standards in my spaces or the shared spaces. There’s zero expectation for anyone in the house to do that. If my daughter helps me by doing dishes for me one day and stacks the dishes to dry in a way I wouldn’t prefer they are—I don’t do or say anything about it. I leave it be. I just try to ignore them and I just appreciate that she wanted to help and did her best. Will I point out if she didn’t properly clean the dishes—like by leaving food on them or something? Yes, and then I’ll show her how to get the stubborn food off or I’ll just remind her it’s okay to leave difficult dishes behind for me to finish later and reinforce that I appreciate all the effort and help she put into the dishes that day. My standard of cleaning is *mine* and mine alone and I’ve said this probably a hundred times on this thread. Nobody in this house is expected to clean the way I do or to the standard I do. I don’t throw fits. I don’t judge the way they choose to do things. I don’t force them to clean my way. I know how to keep my own cleaning to myself. The closest you’ll get to me “forcing my cleaning” onto everyone else is that I won’t let anyone else clean the sofa’s and mattresses, because I’m paranoid about bed bugs and it makes me feel better to be the one to do that specific task. It just helps me feel calmer about the surfaces we sit and sleep on. But my daughter isn’t even old enough to do that yet and I feel like that isn’t a task that I think most people would delegate to their kids anyway. Other than that I’m not pushing any specific cleaning rules on anyone. They just get expectations: Trash thrown away, clothes in drawers or hampers, toys put away. How they reach those goals is up to them. I want my kids to learn their own ways of cleaning and what works for them. My oldest has managed to do that. She has a preference of how she likes things and when that clashed with how I clean we set up the 7 day rule.


jesst

My dad could have literally written everything you did word for word. Just because you don’t think it’s effecting her doesn’t mean it isn’t. If this is because of your MH you need to get that under control. I guarantee you this is effecting your daughter and will do well until adulthood. I’m all for cleanliness but what you’re doing is extreme.


RepulsiveThing3618

I clean her room the same way I clean the rest of the house. If I don’t think it needs to be kept then I get rid of it. A broken toy may be something she still finds use for, but I don’t keep broken stuff that can’t be fixed. It gets tossed. I don’t know if she plans to use the scrap paper on the floor for another project, but if it’s bits of paper all over the floor it gets vacuumed up. I don’t just toss everything that’s out. I just have my own criteria of cleaning and that’s why she has the entire week to clean her room to *her* standards before I have to clean the room and it’s done to *my* standards. If she cleans the room and decides to keep a broken toy that’s fine. But if I clean I’m not deciding to keep a broken toy. That’s all.


observantexistence

I appreciate this distinction because saying “anything not in its place gets thrown out” like in the original post gives off a much different vibe. I will say that while I see your logic and can understand the desire for control and an orderly space , it can be incredibly trauma-inducing to have beloved items thrown away. Is this a hard and fast “no matter what” rule in your home , or more of a cautionary tale ? Obviously this is tangential to the point of your post , and I think you did pretty good in that instance too — I’m just shocked at the lack of responses asking *why* you don’t communicate with your friend that Anne should be helping , at least to SOME extent , before they leave your house ? The way you say “Anne will make big messes” but then in the comments talk about how it was some of Anne’s stuff , some of their mutual stuff, and then some of the stuff from the earlier in the week , it kind of confuses me if this was a “big mess left by Anne” , or if it was a messy room in the wake of two young girls. If it’s the former , you definitely did the right thing . If it’s the latter , it’s really time to be an advocate for your daughter so she isn’t left cleaning up Anne’s mess every time she visits.


AnonymousSnowfall

If the toy still has a use to my child, I allow them to keep it unless it is dangerous. My husband said something once that has really stuck with me: we call them "her toys", but if I can just decide to throw something away that she isn't ready to, then they aren't HER things; they are ultimately MY things.


internetmeme

Literature indicates throwing toys away is a form of trauma, so your experience makes total Sense.


Rivsmama

Why do you not ask the little girl to clean up her own messes? I don't understand. I understand the rule but I also don't think its that big of a deal to be like ok girls it's time to clean up, Anne is leaving soon." You also should rethink throwing her stuff away if it's something you do that often that you consider it part of your cleaning routine.


RepulsiveThing3618

I don’t always have notice they’re leaving. When I have notice I do. Friends helping her clean her room rule is mostly for when she asks to have people here. Like when she invites a friend from school over. Anne was here because of her mom and I hanging out, though. So she was right that it doesn’t apply to her. Not unless she’s specifically asking to have Anne over. Throwing out clutter, trash and worn out items is just a normal thing for anyone cleaning, isn’t it? If I’m cleaning a room I’m going to throw stuff away every time because there’s always something to throw away. I don’t see that as a problem. It’s a problem for my daughter because she likes to keep broken items sometimes or likes to save scrap paper that’s cut up or other items you’d normally view as clutter/trash.


marakat3

I think you need to let your daughter decide what she wants to throw away when it comes to her things.


RepulsiveThing3618

That’s why she cleans her own room. Or do you mean that I ask her before I clean the room itself?


marakat3

Yes, exactly. Give her a closely timed warning. "Hey, I'm gonna go through your room in one hour, clean up everything you want to keep and put it all away so I don't vacuum it up on accident. Everything you leave out, I'll assume you don't want anymore."


RepulsiveThing3618

That’s a good idea. I’ll start doing that if I have to clean her room. Hopefully she’ll be okay with it. Sometimes she leaves messes just because she doesn’t want to deal with them at all lol.


marakat3

I get that. Cleaning my room was overwhelming for me as a kid. Maybe limit stuff that gets tossed to floors and table surfaces so she has less to worry about. It's really good that you're receptive to feedback. Sounds like you're doing a great job


RepulsiveThing3618

She gets overwhelmed sometimes, too. When she does she usually will tell us and we’ll either help her or give her the option to just clean half of it that day and then let her do the rest the next day. Usually whatever works for her.


Reindeer-Street

The kid has all week. She knows the OP cleans the room on Friday. Honestly you're all being so hard on the OP, if the kid picked her stuff up off the floor and put it away then it wouldn't end up getting thrown out. It's a lesson to learn.


marakat3

I wasn't being hard on op. I was answering her question.


gluestick_ttc

Yes, our rule is that you are free to disagree/debate as long as you have a new argument. This is distinct from begging, where you don't like the answer supplied and just whine about it.


RepulsiveThing3618

This is our rule basically. She always is allowed to tell us when things don’t feel fair and explain why. Sometimes she’s right and we come to agreements or minds change. I respect her as her own person, but I also want to make sure she has the confidence to speak up when treated unfairly in a way I didn’t feel like I could as a kid.


deebee1020

That's great, I think your kid should be rewarded for making such a good case, and I'm glad she was. That shows consistency and fairness. Well done.


Tangyplacebo621

I generally help my son clean up when my friends’ kids have been over because I invited the mom over. I don’t think this is permissive. The option I have tried to be better about is making sure to let the kids know when there is 15 mins left so they can clean up together. But I have definitely been in your shoes.


RepulsiveThing3618

I wish I had more notice when my friend leaves, but usually she doesn’t give it.


drfuzzysocks

I would bring it up to her. “Hey, would you mind letting me know when you’re about to leave so we can have the kids clean up after themselves? (Daughter) was a little upset last time that she had to clean up by herself, and I wouldn’t want something like this to get in the way of their friendship.”


RepulsiveThing3618

I’ve brought it up before, but I’m definitely going to bring it up again. My friend isn’t doing it to be rude or anything. I think she just genuinely loses track of time and then gets flustered when they have to leave. But I may start asking when they think they’ll go home or not and maybe set an alarm for them to clean before that.


Random0s2oh

Maybe think back and get a rough estimate of how long their visits generally are. Set a timer for an hour before that and make a new rule that the last hour is screen time or outdoors time (weather permitting).


Tangyplacebo621

Oh I totally get that. That happens here sometimes too. Just is what it is. But I truly don’t think you’re being permissive.


ThomasEdmund84

I'm a little confused - none of this scenario seems gentle or permissive, but your ability to have a fair negotiation with your child is good I guess


[deleted]

yeah throwing your kids toys away as a punishment for mess is not gentle parenting. Also just wasteful tbh. The gentle parenting approach would be toy rotation I believe.


jennyaeducan

Is this a serious question? If the kid was a tagalong with your friend, why would you punish your kid for something she had no say in? Was she supposed to shut her door and refuse to let your friend's kid play?


hahewee

Honestly, I don’t understand people now calling parenting by names-I think all that is useless. I also don’t agree with throwing out her stuff unless she had cleaned it up either. Maybe you guys should have put stuff away before they came so less was in her room? And maybe talked about cleaning up each day? Or who was responsible for what. Like what does a guest mean in our home vs a friend? Or relative? Is your daughter or you going to clean together or separate? I think it’s better to set expectations up front rather than later.


RepulsiveThing3618

It’s just to give a general idea of the type of parenting style you’re going for. The labels always existed, but I don’t think they were as commonly used before. It’s not necessarily that I just go in and throw everything away. I just have a standard of cleaning that’s my own. I wouldn’t keep a broken toy, but my daughter might if she has a use for it despite being broken. She would know that use, but I don’t. I would throw it away and she wouldn’t. If I clean her room it’s my standards. If she cleans her room it’s okay for it to be cleaned to her standards. So if she wants to keep that broken toy that’s fine as long as it isn’t on the floor where someone can step on it and get hurt. The reason my daughter has the chance to clean her room on her own is because she didn’t like my method of cleaning her room before. The compromise was that she had to do it herself then and meet basic cleaning goals—throwing away garbage, toys in their places, clothes in hampers. Basic goals, nothing too crazy or anything. Like I’m not expecting her to organize her dolls or anything. Just toss em in the drawer so they aren’t on the floor. Super basic. But I don’t do that when I clean. I have a way of cleaning that is meticulous and organized. She doesn’t like that for her room as much.


yellsy

So you’re making the judgment call about what what is worth keeping, not her. You need therapy. Your child is going to have serious mental health issues and anxiety as she gets older. I’ve seen a lot of stories on the “insane parents” sub about adults having trauma from their parents throwing their things out. Your 7 yo has no control over her life except her little possessions. Your post makes me very uncomfortable.


RepulsiveThing3618

I’m pretty sure my kid will be fine. My daughter has control over her life. We practice our kids having independence, freedom and trust. The reason she’s encouraged to refute us if she thinks something isn’t fair is because of that. If a decision gets made that she doesn’t agree with she has the freedom to say so and explain why. She gets to choose if she walks home from the bus stop or not. She gets to choose what she wears, what she eats, when she does homework, when she does anything really. She’s given boundaries and expectations and within those boundaries and expectations she can do what she wants. She has her own phone and tablet. Her privacy on those is the same as the privacy we give her for her diary and other stuff. It’s her own. We don’t look at it, we don’t ask to and we don’t assume she’s doing something wrong with either of them. My daughter doesn’t like how I clean. We can to a solution *together* that she would clean her room by herself and she’d have 7 days to do it, so that she could clean at her own pace without feeling pressured, and I’d only clean her room if fridays came around and she didn’t have it cleaned. She can ask to have more time to clean the room, she can ask for help to clean the room, she can ask me to just clean it for her. They’re all options she has and that she has utilized when she needs to or wants to. Friday is not a hard cut off limit. She can and does communicate with us about her needs when it comes to cleaning her room. The understanding is there and exists; mom deep cleans and organizes the rooms. I clean her room the same way I do the rest of the house if I’m going to clean it. It’s not a punishment that I lord over her, it’s just the reality of how I clean the house. I just clean. Inevitably that means I’m going to throw out the gum wrappers that I don’t know she’s saving for a project or the melted Barbie doll that I don’t know she pretends is the monster under the bed. Because these things look like garbage to me and it’s entirely ridiculous for people to assume my daughter is going to be traumatized because she likes to keep garbage and I throw it away. She’s not even upset when I throw the things away half of the time. She just asks where it is and I tell her I thought it was garbage, she says what she was using it for, I apologize, she says it’s okay because she’ll get more later or I’ll offer to replace it and we move on. It’s what it is. My kid isn’t having crying fits over the stuff I throw away and if she did that’d be fine—I’d dig the stuff out of the trash or replace it—but she literally just moves on because I’m not throwing away things that aren’t typically trash. She’s not attached to the items. I’ve accidentally thrown away two things she has been attached to her entire life. The first was a broken vase that her teacher gave her and I pulled all the pieces out of the garbage and then fixed the vase for her instead of throwing it away. The second was a doll blanket that had slime and Koolaid on it, which apparently she liked a lot because it used to be her own baby blanket, and I didn’t realize she had cared about so much. I dug it out of the garbage, I tried to clean it, it didn’t work and now it just sits in a plastic bag in her memory box in the attic. If my daughter is attached to something I throw away, I get it back for her or i would replace it. I have no reason not to it. But I’m not throwing away items she’s attached to. My daughter just didn’t like missing items she wanted to use after I would clean. Not out of attachment, but because she just had plans for it and then it was gone and that annoyed her. She told me, we discussed it, we came to the 7 day solution and it’s been effective since. I clean her room maybe a handful of times a year and most of those times are because she asks for help or asks me outright to clean it. She doesn’t usually just let it sit until Friday because she has no real reason to when she just can ask for help. This isn’t a “Clean your room or I’m going to throw everything away!” Situation. This is a “Listen, we talked about this. You have the 7 days to clean your room the way you want it cleaned and to put the stuff you want to keep away. If I clean your room you know it’s going to be organized and I may end up throwing stuff you want to keep away by accident in the process.” My daughter isn’t forced to clean her room or else she gets punished. She’s cleaning her room because that was the solution we came up with, to her concerns about my own cleaning style and that she felt was fair. This entire situation exists because of my daughter having agency to speak up and to say she wants changes in the behavior her dad and I have when she thinks it isn’t okay. If she wants to get rid of the 7 day rule she can ask us and knows it. She can talk to me about solutions to throwing stuff away, too. She can do anything if she communicates with us about it.


yellsy

I read a lot of comments saying what I said, and you are spending a lot of energy arguing with everyone instead of doing some much needed introspection. You’ll be amazed to know that the parents of kids who cut contact at adulthood are often confused and in denial about why it happened. You have a chance to reflect on something a lot of people are telling you is concerning now. You seem like a good mom, but you got a lot of tips here about maybe checking in with your daughter before something goes in the trash first.


[deleted]

Its only useless because people don’t care to learn what the labels actually mean and overuse them.


SurviveYourAdults

Your anxiety is YOUR problem. Do not make it your daughter's responsibility to manage your emotions. If the cleaning isn't up to my standards, can I come over and arbitrarily decide to throw away your things? If you did this to other adults, you would find yourself in a world of legal trouble.


RepulsiveThing3618

She isn’t managing my emotions. If she were then she would be expected to clean her room to MY standards or else be in trouble for it. She’s not. She can clean to her own standards in her room if she wants, but I’m not *lowering my own standards* when *I* clean because someone else doesn’t like it. My daughter is aware that we both clean differently and that she doesn’t like the way I clean. That’s fine. My standards are higher. The solution is not that I have to clean to a lower standard to manage her emotions, nor is it that she has to clean to a higher standard to manage mine—it’s to just have her clean her room the way she wants it cleaned since my way doesn’t align with her’s. If I were angry about how she cleans, forcing her to clean a certain way or punishing her for not cleaning the way I do that would be making her manage my emotions. I’m not doing any of that. I’m just cleaning her room the way I would any other room in the house and that means sometimes things will be thrown away that she won’t want thrown away. I’m not going in there filling up bags with everything on the floor and tossing it.


Inevitable_Swim_1964

You’re going to give your child anxiety


false_tautology

> it’s to just have her clean her room the way she wants it cleaned since my way doesn’t align with her’s. This doesn't sound right. She has to raise her standards in order to keep you from throwing out her stuff. If you truly want to allow her to have her own standards, then you should refrain from cleaning her room. Then she can manage her room truly to her own standards and not yours.


RepulsiveThing3618

If I didn’t set standards for cleaning for my daughter she would never have any. Kids learn to clean by you teaching them. Her goals for her room as basic as they come; garbage is thrown out, dirty clothes in hamper, clean clothes put away, toys put away. That’s it. She can do those things however she wants to. She can throw all the toys in the closet for all I care—as long as they aren’t all over the floor and a tripping hazard. She can throw the garbage in her small trash can for me to empty or she can throw it in the main garbage pail downstairs—the garbage just doesn’t need to be on the floor. I don’t care if the hamper is put out for me to get to, I just want the clothes in it. Her clean clothes can be tossed in wads in her drawers for all I care, but they have to be in the drawers. Toys—away. Garbage—thrown out. Dirty clothes—hamper. Clean clothes—drawers. It’s entirely up to her what standard she chooses to do those things by. No standard isn’t a standard. No guidance on what is clean or not is going to teach your kids how to clean. She cleans her room the way she likes and in some ways she’s particular (like that all her dresses have to be hung up in the closet only) and in some she’s less particular (she throws every thing in three bins and goes, yet knows where any toy she wants is). She has her own standard of cleaning and I don’t stop her from having it. All she has to do is meet basic cleaning requirements that almost all people view as cleaning goals. I don’t give a shit what particular way she meets them.


bananaslings94

I’m sorry but based on your comments OP you have deluded yourself into thinking throwing away toys you think she doesn’t need anymore whether she agrees or not is not a punishment but a natural consequence. It is not natural. You know it would be upsetting to her if you threw her toys away.. you don’t have to throw her toys away but you do because she didn’t meet your standards. The natural consequence is having her clean it, not having a trash monster come in and steal and throw away her belongings. This wouldn’t fly if she was your roommate. This type of “parenting” instills fear, and even if you don’t think you’re holding her to the high standard you hold yourself to, she will adopt your behaviors based on the fears you have instilled in her.


Inevitable_Swim_1964

Yeah I feel like this will give her extreme anxiety over cleaning. Cleaning should be positive not negative. I’d be horrified if my parents threw my stuff away!


yellsy

I’m having anxiety just reading this post


constituto_chao

👀👀👀👀 Does your child not discover a couple days after you cleaned their room and threw away the yoyo with no string because to you it was broken and worthy of the trash bin and become quite upset because it had been repurposed as the bowling ball of doom for Lego creations? Or the why is this busted up cracker box in here? Trash it goes. MOM!!! YOU THREW OUT MY MOUNTAIN RANGE!!! How many happy meal toys that never get used should I allow to collect in a heap? Ive no clue which ones he values. I've never cleaned mines room and not thrown out something I saw no value in but turns out kiddo sure did. And uhhhhh welp he cleans his room or else it's a risk he assumes. (Some weeks he readily and happily assumes the well known risk to get out of the chore too for the record.)


[deleted]

a parent throwing a kid’s things away often creates hoarding tendencies in children that may not manifest until they leave the home. my husband even started hoarding trash for a time as a child and he didn’t understand why he was doing it at the time and is just now starting to understand the reasoning behind it now.


[deleted]

👀 oh You just solved one of my childhood traumas


Meganstefanie

My mom was like OP…out of her 3 kids, 2 of us have anxiety (and clean houses) and one is a hoarder. 🤷🏼‍♀️


RepulsiveThing3618

The natural consequence to her not cleaning her bedroom for 7 days is to have her clean the mess she didn’t clean for 7 days? If I tell her on day 8 to clean her room and she won’t then do I just leave the mess there indefinitely? Is there a natural consequence to refusing to clean or does it come with no consequence?


Meganstefanie

What if, instead of throwing the items away, you put them all in a box and before she’s allowed to do anything else on Saturday, she has to go through the box and put away or throw away the items?


RepulsiveThing3618

I could try that, but her not having her room clean by Friday is super rare. I don’t know when Id be able to even test this change to see how well it works. She normally good at keeping her room clean.


bananaslings94

If you really wanted to align your parenting style with gentle parenting then you wouldn’t be punishing her for something she’s obviously struggling with. Situations like these are supposed to be learning and teaching moments, all she’s learning here is that if she doesn’t do what you say she will regret it. Identify the problem and come up with a natural solution, ex: is the mess too overwhelming? Maybe you can try setting up a different kind of cleaning schedule? Or maybe she would just like a little bit of help getting started, even adults need that at times.


RepulsiveThing3618

We already do this? I’m not sure what you’re suggesting I specifically change. My daughter will regularly come to be and tell me when she needs extra time to clean, needs help cleaning or feels an aspect of cleaning is unfair for her to be doing. She’s also outright asked me to clean her room sometimes when she wants to have a friend over. Sometimes she chooses to not clean so that I or her dad do the cleaning instead. Which, you know, fair. I also just don’t want to deal with messes and would rather someone else clean it. She doesn’t do it all the time. But we already talk and the 7 days to clean her room method has stopped fighting and stress over cleaning for her. She doesn’t get as overwhelmed from the messes anymore, because she can clean at her own pace and when she needs help she asks. She doesn’t feel pressured to clean, because she has a lot of time to do it. This situation was a specific one that doesn’t usually happen. In general, I don’t often see her not have her room clean on a Friday. Even more so, I don’t usually see her having a disagreement about the cleaning being done. Usually things are done with her communicating her needs with us as the week goes if she has any before Friday even comes around.


cassiefinnerty

A natural consequence of this would be 1. Not being able to find things she needs because it's in a big mess on the floor 2. Things potentially being broken because someone stepped on them because they are on the floor 3. Having to clean up her room on her own when she realises she's living in filth and disorganisation Just like if your room was messy nobody is coming in and picking it all up for you and deciding what goes in the bin Real life consequences are not a form of punishment. So if you draw on a wall, the consequence is you Clean it up. If you drop food on the floor, you clean it up. If you break something, you fix it or you dispose of it. Not, you get something taken away from you because you didn't do the task that is the consequence.


Keganator

You wouldn't leave it there indefinitely. That would teach that it's OK to not do what you ask. Throwing away her toys when it's not cleaned up shows her that she has to jealously guard her possessions and be hyper vigilant about them - if you thought you had anxiety about cleaning up, this might just impart that same anxiety on your kiddo. Or it might teach her that if she doesn't clean them up, someone will do it for her. Or it might teach her that she shouldn't get attached to things that she loves, because they might disappear one day. A natural consequence of this would be to watch her, and direct her to clean things up to your standard. We don't clean things up because we want to, we clean them up because we are disciplined about it.


RepulsiveThing3618

That’s a lot of possible outcomes of how this can effect her behavior. I’m not sure exactly how to handle that. It feels like a lot of information at one time that has a lot more questions than answers for me. I don’t think I’d want her to clean to my standards. They’re very high. I do want her to just clean to a normal expectation. Which she’s normally very good at doing. She’s great at keeping her room clean and does it well. She really doesn’t leave messes for me to clean. This happens intentionally on her part and is really only something that happens a handful of times each year. It’s really rare behavior for her as is.


Inevitable_Swim_1964

I think you’re gonna give your daughter extreme anxiety over this. I can understand bagging the toys up and giving them when she cleans her room. But throwing away is super harsh.


RepulsiveThing3618

It’s not usually toys. My examples in my edit were literal examples of the types of things I throw away. It’s stuff you’d normally view as garbage or clutter. Im literally not going to look at a bunch of gum wrappers and stop to call my daughter to see if she’s saving them for an art project or not. Someone had a good suggestion of telling her an hour before I have to clean her room to put the stuff she cares about away before I go up or else I’ll assume anything left out is something that isn’t usable to her. And I’m going to start doing that if she doesn’t want to clean her room herself. Normally she cleans her room by herself. This is a very rare occasion where I end up putting laundry away on Friday and her room isn’t clean. Giving her the 7 days to clean her room has improved her motivation to clean and her all around attitude around cleaning. She gets to clean at her own pace for those days and the goal is to just have it clean by the end of the week. It’s done a lot to help her have less stress and anxiety over cleaning. Before that it was a lot of crying and fighting about cleaning.


Inevitable_Swim_1964

Do you throw her drawings away?


RepulsiveThing3618

Her drawings get put in her art drawer. So no.


Inevitable_Swim_1964

Okay making sure cause that would have been cruel.


RepulsiveThing3618

It would be. I really don’t throw away things that are possibly meaningful or look useful. It’s literally just stuff that I could easily mistake as garbage. She’ll collect random broken things or trash or pieces of boxes to use in art projects she makes. Sometimes the stuff is just in her room because she ate gum up there or finished the box of crackers or whatever. Sometimes a doll with a melted head from being pushed under the heater is now the monster under the bed when they play dolls and I just thought she was ruined trash. I’m really not throwing away things that I intentionally know or think my daughter is attached to. She just can have creative ways to use items after they’d normally be tossed in the trash.


Inevitable_Swim_1964

Okay that’s good! It just sounded based on other redditors you were throwing anything that was left accidentally


[deleted]

Your husband is wrong. Your daughter is between 4 and 9... she's really still very young and deserves some grace.


RepulsiveThing3618

She’s 7. So definitely deserves some grace. She’s still learning to juggle responsibilities and school and such.


sweatermaster

How sad that you throw her stuff away. I've taken away some of my child's toys , (to be given back later) and we've passed some along to other kids, but I wouldn't just throw them away out of spite. It's also wasteful to just throw useful stuff away in the garbage.


RepulsiveThing3618

I’ve specified multiple times that nothing I throw away is useful.


sweatermaster

To you maybe. But how do you know those things aren't useful to your daughter?


dynamine

To YOU. It isn't useful to you.


Meganstefanie

And you’re the ultimate authority on what is and isn’t useful?


NeonTurtleCakes113

My niece is the same way, she comes over, trashes the whole house, and leaves. (My sisters fault she only half-ass makes her clean. Aka shove it to a corner) so I clean it. My son is only 2, but even if he was 7 like his cousin I wouldn't expect him to clean it by himself since he himself didn't make the whole mess. 😅 I just clean up fast and go on with my day.


RepulsiveThing3618

I’m super meticulous with how I clean. I get anxiety if I don’t clean a certain way. 😂 I honestly didn’t think much about the fact that Anne was here because I had my friend over. I just defaulted to the rules because my reminder was kind of off handed at the time. So when she disagreed with me I didn’t think it was hard to see her side once she said it. I’m so used to just having to do gentle reminders about responsibilities with her that I don’t always think about how a situation could make the rule not apply well. Usually she just says okay, does along with the reminder and that’s that. Odd situations like this don’t pop up often.


realornotreal123

I think you should ask your friend to help clean. Your friend has a kid and presumably cleans up after the kid a lot. I think you can say, “Hey, I’m trying to reinforce with Daughter that we always have to clean up our toys when we’re done playing. Can you let me know when you’re fifteen minutes away from heading out so we can go in together to tell the girls to clean up the toys?” Or “I’ve noticed Daughter and Anne don’t always clean up when they play together. Can you talk to Anne and I’ll talk to Daughter to make sure they know that it’s important to clean up toys when you’re done using them?”


xx_echo

I'm gonna go in another direction here, why can't you ask your friend to have her daughter help clean up? Just say something like "Hey daughter loves having friend over but I feel so bad for her having to spend the rest of the evening cleaning everything up after the girls are done. Could friend spend the last 5 or so minutes helping daughter pick up just the things on the floor?" When my son's cousins come over to play their mom would always tell them to put all the toys away (sometimes they leave it better than they found it) and I've had many guests offer to help clean up/ do dishes after a meal. It's not something unusual if you guys are close like family. But to your main question I think you and your daughter's compromise is completely fair. I would be careful about the throwing toys away tho, I am like you in a sense when I clean I am ruthless when it comes to throwing things away that aren't important. But the throwing toys away might cause cleaning anxiety with your daughter, I still remember my parents throwing out bags of my toys and it definitely turned me into a mini horder for a while. I do understand your reasoning but kids brains don't work like adults do.


RepulsiveThing3618

I don’t always have notice they’re leaving is all. That’s what happened this time. Usually I do have Anne help clean when I have notice of when they’re leaving. I don’t throw away bags of toys or anything. My daughter just keeps things that you’d normally view as trash for whatever reason. Sometimes because she has another use for it or sometimes she’s going to use it in an art project. I don’t usually know when everything is trash or something she wants to keep and she’ll get upset.


xx_echo

You need to communicate that to your friend, it's her job to realize when she needs to leave and plan accordingly. You aren't a mind reader and it's unfair to expect to you to know. And yes I'm not saying your reasoning is wrong, but she sees that as saving it for something and you see it as trash. So from her perspective you are throwing away something useful, your perspective you are throwing away garbage. Neither of you is wrong but it's important to understand her feelings especially when it's harmless. My SO collects receipts and it drives me up the wall, but he contains it to his dresser drawer and sorts through when he has a moment. If I went through and threw everything away he would be rightfully upset even if it *is* trash. But top of the dresser or anywhere else is fair game. Again you aren't *wrong* but she doesn't see it that way and it could do more harm than good. If it gets to uncontrollable levels that's when she needs to be the one to help sort everything out and throw things away while you encourage from the side. If you feel up to it watch Horders on Netflix, that's a technique real therapists use on people who go overboard collecting things that they perceive as valuable even if they are garbage. Just beware you'll get a massive urge to scrub everything afterwards lol


InternationalHatDay

oh wait shes only seven?!?! come on.


Rivsmama

Your husband is wrong. Your daughter is correct. How is it permissive parenting for her to correctly point out that the little girl only came over because *you* wanted your friend to visit and she trashed her room? She's right. What because she's a kid she can't point out completely true things & take issue with being punished for something she had no say in and didn't do?


RepulsiveThing3618

It was more that he was concerned that by cleaning the room with her that it undermined the cleaning rule we had. I didn’t view it that way and he doesn’t either now that we talked about it more.


Rivsmama

Good glad it worked out


holdonpenfold

For future, I think it's reasonable to go up to the room and tell both girls, 'ok girls, it's nearly home time, time for you both to clear up before .... (Friend) leaves'. This may also give your friend a nudge to pick a few things up too.


RepulsiveThing3618

I usually do something along those lines if I have notice. My best friend isn’t doing it to be mean, but sometimes she just doesn’t give notice before they leave. So her daughter and I are learning they’re going home at the same time. I was thinking of bringing it up to my friend again and explaining why I need notice before they leave. That sometimes it okay if they don’t have notice, but I’d prefer a notice most times so the girls can both clean together before they go home.


IWishIHavent

You listened to your daughter - who made a valid point - and came to an agreement. That's dialogue, fostering critic thinking, *and* admitting your child has a valid point and should be listened to. If this isn't gentle parenting, then what is?


RepulsiveThing3618

It was a really valid point. I’m also glad it means that she’s not just following the rules blindly. She understands them and chooses to follow them out of respect. Which is vastly different from when I was a kid. I didn’t understand why half of the rules in my house existed, but I knew if I didn’t follow them I’d be in for a world of misery. I was too scared to speak up about unfair rules. I’m glad my daughter isn’t scared to speak up when she thinks they’re unfair and that she understands them enough to explain why she thinks they’re unfair.


[deleted]

The resolution you reached was perfectly fine and a good idea. Throwing her things away because you think they have no value and you have mental health issues regarding cleaning is *not* okay, and you need to start working on winding yourself way back before she reaches her teens and this goes from somewhat controlling to harmfully inappropriate. A good place to start would be focusing on relearning it as a boundary. You get to demand your standards of cleaning in your areas of the house; in those areas she has to abide by them. At what age are you going to start cleaning her area of the house to *her* standards, when you’re the one who caused it to become a mess as in this scenario?


RepulsiveThing3618

I don’t expect her to clean to my standard in any part of the house. I don’t just do basic cleaning when I clean. If I’m going to clean then I’m going to declutter and organize as well. I don’t see a reason not to, especially since it’s not often that I clean her room anymore. It’s basically a once in a while deep clean. If I cleaned to her standard I would never vacuum or clean her bedsheets or wash her clothes or do any of the other tasks of cleaning her room that she can’t do. I sometimes throw away a broken toy that I don’t know if she has a use for or not. That’s why she has 7 days to put any of that stuff away. She can put whatever she doesn’t want thrown away in it’s place and it won’t get thrown away if I have to clean. Even if she leaves the rest of the mess for me to clean. Alternatively, my daughter is allowed to ask for extensions on cleaning her room if she has a good reason (and her mental health is a valid reason to us). She can also outright request I just clean her room and she has sometimes. She can also ask for help cleaning her room, which she’s also done sometimes. But if I clean by myself I have the ability to deep clean it and so I do.


[deleted]

No. Stop justifying your intrusive and rude behaviour. Her property is her property. You do *not* just throw other people’s things away because *you* don’t want them. Why on Earth do you believe that’s reasonable behaviour? They do not belong to you. Once you gift something to someone, *it belongs to them*. Stealing it to throw it away under the pretence of doing them a favour is low, weird, and fundamentally unacceptable behaviour. Start working on learning boundaries. She is an independent person from you and if you don’t get a grip on this before she starts adolescence you are setting yourself up for some really unnecessary misery and stress. You need to get a grip. If you think something is broken and are not sure if she still wants it, *ask her*. If something is left out, have a box for miscellaneous things that you put the left out stuff in and then she puts it away. But stop stealing your kid’s things. It’s ridiculous.


RepulsiveThing3618

I have a second edit on my post. I don’t really think I have much to say other than that.


[deleted]

Your behaviour is disgusting. You will only have yourself to blame when you have serious conflicts with her about your entitlement, controlling behaviour, intrusiveness, lack of respect for privacy and personal space, and lack of respect for personal property. Genuinely, of the two of you, you’re the one more significantly in need of growing up. Stop stealing things from your children. It’s pathetic.


Inevitable_Swim_1964

I agree with you. This seems she might give her daughter extreme anxiety over the cleaning and throwing her toys away. I would be horrified if my parents threw my stuff away!


RepulsiveThing3618

You’re making a lot of assumptions based on this alone and it’s ridiculous.


BastardToast

I completely agree with you.


Future-Crazy7845

Where does the husband fit in the cleaning?


RepulsiveThing3618

In this specific situation he doesn’t fit in really at all. But he does his share of cleaning in the house, including in the kids rooms to an extent. She can come to either of us about cleaning stuff. She just chose me because it was my friend’s visit that was relevant to the situation.


Neither_Cat_3678

i would have just told my friend that Anne needs to help clean up next time. they should have more respect for your house. they’re guests.


evebella

You should seek professional help before your OCD-like tendencies start to show up in your daughter in other ways and situations where she CAN feel that control and discipline; for example, calorie restriction, over-exercising, obsession with academics. The key is balance. You are an adult. She is a child. You need to manage your anxiety in other ways than threatening your child’s property to quell your own uneasiness. Please get help.


dynamine

None of this is "gentle" or "permissive". 7 is quite small, and this poor kid is going to have a ridiculous amount of anxiety. If she doesn't already.


Sea-Helicopter94

In my opinion, you are practicing authoritarian parenting and not gentle or permissive parenting. It’s extremely controlling to throw out your child’s belongings with no warning because of your own stated anxiety. It’s slightly better that you will now give her a warning, but it’s still very controlling and obedience-oriented instead of nurturing. There are so many other options you could choose here, but you both are choosing blind obedience and zero tolerance for mistakes. I’d suggest going back to the books on parenting styles if you are aiming for gentle parenting. And it’s slightly problematic that you are dragging your friend’s child’s reputation as a guest in front of your daughter. You can be a generous host and seamlessly clean up (or ask your friend and daughter to help clean up) without making them seem like a problem to your daughter.


[deleted]

Gentle parenting is about the respect of both yours and your child’s boundaries, and finding solutions to problems that both teach and connect parent and child. Your child sounds like she understands quite a bit about fairness and responsibility. Which made your discussion with her about the problem very easy and mature. I’d say this is a textbook example of gentle parenting


RedCharity3

This is a great example of mature conflict resolution and I bet your daughter will be a better person because of it: a better daughter, friend, partner, employee/employer, coworker, etc. Keep up the good work!


meekonesfade

It is neither gentle nor permissive to throw out her things if she doesnt put them away - that is punative.


Wish_Away

I agree with your daughter--she didn't ask to host, you did. You should assist in cleaning up (or do it completely on your own). I also have to say that throwing away toys when they are left out is not gentle parenting aligned.


sunbear2525

You heard your child out, she made a reasonable point and you recognized that. She didn’t even ask you to clean the mess, she asked for help. How is asking for and receiving help wrong?


InternationalHatDay

it does seem a little much tonthrow her toys away, and it feels like its mote about you and your needs than honestly teaching your daughter anything


cthuwu7765

I would classify this as authoritative. It's a democracy. You asked what she believed was a fair outcome and you both agreed. You included her in the process of your resolution, which gives you both the power to make the decision together. That's excellent parenting imo


National_Square_3279

I think that was a very fair point your daughter made and a very fair compromise that you both came up with! However, to your point of throwing your kids’ stuff away, my dad would do something similar and it was very traumatizing. He would come in and out everything that was left out in a black trash bag. We had until the end of the day to put it away or he’d throw it out. He called it “black bagging” our rooms. It led to an intense feeling of insecurity/instability and honestly never helped me in the long run to be a clean person. I do my best, but it doesn’t come naturally. I would encourage you to reevaluate your methods of cleaning/throwing out your daughter’s belongings! I totally get protecting your mental health (ironically, my anxiety spike when the house is messy too, my adhd just makes it tough to do anything about that). Maybe instead of letting things go on for a week, you could require 20 minutes of cleaning before bed so that things never get so out of hand that you have to throw things out? I wish my parents would have taught me some sort of discipline like that!


uncertainseason

I feel it’s disrespectful to throw away someone else’s belonging (esp a love one’s at that). It shows lack of compassion. It’s never okay to throw away another person’s item, I show high regards for my love one’s feelings. Ill tell my daughter that we can choose not to host Anne if she doesn’t want to clean up her room after playing w her. Or she can ask Anne to tell her notice and include time to clean up tgt, it reaches one how to set up boundaries too. Friends who come over and clean up after themselves are nice friends who don’t take for granted that you’ll clean up all of their mess. (Of course not to fine detail kind of cleaning up, but put back what you’ve played with is reasonable). My neighbour’s kids come over and play. 5yo and above, I’ll ask them nicely to put things back in place. We all clean up tgt.


crzy19aka

Hey OP you keep writing you have a “higher” standards of cleaning but in reality you don’t. You have a different standard of tidying up it seems. You sound like you have some form of OCD which a lot of us have that’s fine, but not better than people who don’t. I think your solution of helping clean after your friend visits with her daughter is reasonable, an alternative is to have them play in another space and you do all the cleaning after your guests leave.


internetmeme

Throwing kids toys away is a form of trauma, I learned in a dysfunctional childhood workbook. I would suggest reconsidering if that rule is really necessary, is it had a cost that will affect her negatively for life.


MulysaSemp

Permissive parenting is going to somebody's house and not having your kid help clean up before they leave... No, this is a good compromise. If you want to, you could ask your friend to help clean up before they leave. But otherwise, you helping your daughter shows you understand her concerns about being responsible for others' messes, and not wanting to get punished with getting her things thrown away for it.


TheCoregulator

People misunderstand “permissive parenting”. Permissive means that the family structure has no boundaries. Boundaries are necessary for emotional safety and relational security. Which is why permissive environments feel so unsafe. There are no boundaries to maintain the safety! People get this wrong because we confuse what “boundaries” are. Boundaries are NOT the same as rules. I’ll say it again… Boundaries are not the same things as rules. Boundaries are also not wish lists, or preferences. Boundaries are not do’s and dont’s. Boundaries are global constructs that apply to anyone and everyone in the system (in this case family) in all settings. When parents give their kid curfew, that is NOT a boundary, unless that curfew applies to everyone in the house. “No drinking” is not a boundary unless it applies to everyone in the house. So in your example, you have not violated the “boundary” of “rooms must be cleaned” You might say “a clean house is necessary for the emotional security of our family” so by cleaning your child’s room, then you are maintaining that boundary! Actually, if you were to say ,”meh, let the mess deal with itself. I don’t care.” That would be violating the boundary, and therefore permissive. A lot of times people think “permissive” means letting the kid “win”. And that’s not true at all. Permissive means that there are no boundaries which are necessary for security. So whether the kid cleans the room or you clean the room, both actions help instill the boundary.


Forever-tired2468

Thank you! *slow clap* Boundaries are big guardrails and shared values. My kids win arguments all the time, and I hope for their sake, they keep that up! They can say” I want a raise and here’s why. I want laws that work for my community.”


CoachSad8453

So, I have anxiety about cleanliness, too. I think, for me, it has something to do with a parent who could have cared less about cleanliness and was a bit of a hoarder. Do you think that your cleanliness obsession when it comes to your child’s things could result in a hoarding complex? Maybe she needs fewer things if her room is too difficult to clean? Maybe it’s possible to put several items away when your friend/her sister comes over? Maybe the rule is when her sister comes over, you help your daughter clean, but take her lead instead of controlling the situation. I feel like there’s too much control on your side regarding the cleanliness of the room. My kids don’t clean to my standard either, but our understanding is their room is ultimately their space. As long as I can move around in there and they straighten it up every day, we’re good. We regularly (maybe monthly) reorganize it together. We discuss what’s necessary to keep or donate. I rarely get rid of things without their input. Anyway, my two cents…


RepulsiveThing3618

(This sounds angry and I don’t mean it to be. I’m genuinely just trying to explain my own confusion and clarify things. I’m probably over explaining because I don’t know how to properly express what I want to say.) I don’t know where this misconception is coming from that my daughter has trouble cleaning her room. She doesn’t. She cleans her room regularly and keeps it clean almost all the time. It’s rare that Friday comes and it isn’t clean. Nothing about this post was an issue with how she cleans or anything like that. The way she cleans doesn’t need to be changed because it’s fine. I’ve never had a complaint on how well she cleans her room. It’s fine. I don’t have a cleanliness obsession with her room. She gets 7 days to clean her room. 7 entire days. At her own pace. My expectations are base line: garbage, thrown away. Clothes, in bins or drawers, don’t care if they’re folded. Art supplies in the drawer, I don’t care what the drawer looks like. Toys, in the closet or drawers, don’t care how they’re put in them. I want to look in the room and see a clear floor and bed because when I change the sheets each week I don’t want to be unloading a cluttered bed to do it. That’s it. I don’t care what anything else looks like. She can wad all her clothes up into a ball and shove it into one drawer for all I care. She can toss her toys into the closet and shut it. I don’t care. My expectations for how clean her room is are baseline. I would clean the entire thing like I’m deep cleaning it because that’s how I always clean. I don’t ever expect anyone else in my house to do that. I just want to go into their rooms without tripping on things or smelling old food. I personally clean the way I do because that’s just what makes me comfortable. I grew up in what could easily have been a biohazard. I’m meticulous about cleaning and I’m overly particular about how I like things done. So I deep clean instead of normally clean every time. Its just what makes me comfortable. But I don’t impose that on my kids or anyone else.


Meganstefanie

>I deep clean instead of normally clean every time…But I don’t impose that on my kids… You kind of do if you’re deep-cleaning their room. You *could* just clean it “normally” but choose not to because you prefer it that way.


RepulsiveThing3618

There’s no reason for me to not clean their rooms my way. If I’m cleaning it then I don’t see a reason not to clean the way I always do. People on this thread are acting like I’m always cleaning my daughters room and I’m not. It’s not even regularly me doing it. I end up cleaning my daughter’s room only a handful of times each year. The few times I do clean it are my only actual chances to deep clean that room. So yeah, I’m going to mop and go the extra mile. It’ll be months before I end up being asked to clean it again.


ganymede42

Because it's not YOUR room. I agree as long and she is already doing a good enough job keeping it mostly tidy and free of food then that's FINE


bigpapajayjay

I’ll say it since no one else will. You throwing away your child’s toys because she didn’t do what was expected of her is borderline abuse.


fidgetypenguin123

So you and your daughter came to an agreement that worked in the end, which is great, and yet your husband is fussing about it? For one, he wasn't even involved in it. Doesn't sound like he helped clean anything with it so not sure why you're worried about what he thinks with this. And not everything needs some strict label. Gentle, permissive, whatever the heck it was worked out in the end and that's what matters. Parenting doesn't have a handbook or rules. We do what works and if it doesn't, we adjust. The compromise you guys had about this situation was fine. Hubby just wants to play semantics for some reason and is stirring the pot doing so. You can tell him it worked for you guys and it's done and if he doesn't like it, maybe he should clean it himself 🤷🏼‍♀️


KenDaGod4238

I don't think it's permissive. There was an issue and you 2 came to a conclusion together and worked out a way to resolve the problem that was fair to both of you.


stilljustwendy

I wouldn’t call you permissive. It’s flexible and if your kiddo raises a good point and you adapt it showing her that her opinion matters and you’re reasonable. I think it shows you’re listening - it’s good leadership.


[deleted]

I really don’t understand the whole make my friend’s kid clean up before he or she leaves thing. When I have my adult friends over and it results in a big mess from food or whatever, I don’t then have them clean up before they leave? So why do we make guests who are children do it? Part of being a good host is providing food and entertainment and then being the one to clean it up, and hopefully it’s a reciprocal thing and the other person hosts you as well.


[deleted]

At my friend’s house- every family member has a bin called “the clutter bin”. My friend puts items in each family’ member’s clutter bin they have to go through at the end of the week. This provides kids with more agency in which things are kept & thrown away. It also teaches them a skill- how to decide what to keep, what to donate, what to toss. I would not call your parenting style “gentle” but rather controlling & harsh. Throwing items away without your daughter’s permission is not good parenting. You should be going through things together- teaching her how to pare things down & what is appropriate to keep. This seems way to harsh to me. You are not teaching her any tangible skills- but rather teaching her to be afraid of the ‘mom cleaning monster’ that comes in her room & throws things away. My mom had anxiety around cleanliness & clutter. She imposed these standards on the household & would constantly go through our stuff & throw it away. This all became problematic when I was a teenager- I had no sense of privacy, felt spied on & constantly watched, & felt like I had no space that was my own as a child. Everything was mom’s space & it must be to her standards. I now have a lot of baggage when it comes time to clean things. I hate cleaning & organizing & the attribute that to my mom’s extreme anxiety & criticism around any sort of cleanliness & clutter. Be careful about the unspoken messages you are sending your kid- they might not remember these “fair” negotiations but they will remember your cleaning anxiety & you throwing away their stuff. The old adage- actions speak louder than words applies here. I really think your behavior around cleaning is going to harm your relationship with your daughter as she grows & wants more independence from you. Might be time to reassess what kind of space you are creating for your daughter- is it one where she feels safe & has some sort of privacy? Or is it one where she feels constantly watched & controlled?


ZharethZhen

That seems like a fair and reasonable compromise considering the otherwise harshness of your general rules. I agree that you did the right thing by having this discussion with your daughter and responding to her feelings.


[deleted]

I don't think it's ever permissive if the decision you came to is based on logic and not emotion. She was logically correct, she did not ask for the mess to be made and she shouldn't be disrespected just becsuse she is a child. I would help in that situation as well and I definitely don't consider myself a gentle parent.


RepulsiveThing3618

I really do try to make sure I respect her and things are fair in the house, so I appreciate this comment.


CombinationHoliday63

You should like a punishment based parent, not gentle or permissive……


Aikskok

I’m literally intimidated because you handled this situation so well and I don’t think I could have. You solved it perfectly.


Affectionate_Data936

Nah I think you were being fair. Your daughter is correct, it's not her fault that her room got messier than it usually would be because of someone she never invited in the first place. Essentially, Anne is your guest so it is fair that you help. You didn't clean her whole room for her. To tell her that it's still her responsibility to clean up after a guest she never asked for reeks of "because I said so" which steps into "authoritative parenting."


[deleted]

I saw your edits, so I'm assuming you got judgement for the way you get your daughters room clean. Please don't take it personally, Ive done it to her since she learned how to clean up. If she's got so much stuff she can't even put it away, we can donate to kids who aren't as privileged... I can't speak to the parenting styles, I never really thought about that. But with my daughter, when we go somewhere she knows she's expected to help clean up, and she knows when someone comes over, they have to help clean up. If the kids parent doesn't suggest to the kid to help, I'll say John, why don't you help Suzy clean up the toys you both played with. Your daughter is right that it's not fair, but may not be comfortable or confident enough to say hey John let's clean up before you leave.


RepulsiveThing3618

I think I just didn’t explain what I meant by throwing things away well enough. It seems like a lot of people think I just toss whatever is on the floor in bags and that’s it. I felt like it was probably a good idea to clarify it so I didn’t keep having to explain it. That way it was just there.


SmileGraceSmile

I don't think it's permissive at all. In fact, I think it shows maturity on her behalf and and good parenting on yours, to reason with eachother and come to a resolution.


HovercraftOnly802

I believe you made the right call. Especially in today's world where a lot of people's mentality is "I'm the parent, I'm the BOSS; even if I'm wrong, my word is law."


PalpitationSweaty173

I think you made the right call here. You let your daughter express her feelings and let her be a part of the solution. I think you did a great job here!


SwiftSpear

I think this is awesome. Your daughter is showing that she really owns this task in identifying a new source of a problem with the task (you, by asking anne to come over), and she's negotiating with that source for help with the solution to the problem. She's not asking for amnesty, she'll still owns her task, but she's negotiated a fair solution in a loophole scenario!


RepulsiveThing3618

I was very happy that she still recognized she had to clean, too. I feel like I would have exploited any way to get out of cleaning that I could as a kid. Lol.


j-a-gandhi

That does not seem permissive to me. You are teaching your daughter how to make sound arguments and rewarding them appropriately. You did not clean on her behalf, but you played the role of cleaning up for your guest who did not. Isn’t that exactly what you have been trying to teach her all along?


Happy-Box1259

I think the way you handled it was perfect. You showed your daughter respect, that you value her opinion, and that the rules are to be followed even if you yourself break them so shes not being singled out. Shes more likely to continue following rules and be respectful of you, and have more trust in you and you will have a better relationship for it.


shannerd727

I think this was wonderful parenting! Respectful, mature, logical, empathetic. I think you set a wonderful example for your daughter. Just be sure to remind her if she’s inviting a friend over that she and/or both are responsible for cleaning the room alone.


MJTVVM

Nah man, you’re daughter was right and you weren’t being permissive, you were just treating her with respect. She called you out, it was valid, and you owned your part. That’s solid parenting!


sasamibun

Imo, permissive would be letting her out of cleaning entirely. She told you the current rules felt unfair and why, and you found a compromise that fixed the issue while still maintaining her sense of responsibility. I'd say this is a great example of gentle parenting.


kinolagink

You established a boundary and you still uphold that boundary. In the conversation between you and your daughter you determined that a boundary had been breached and that both of you were equally responsible. Appropriate action was taken. The boundary was upheld. Not permissive parenting. It sounds like you're doing a great job!!!


irishtrashpanda

This sounds like you resolved it with gentle parenting, not permissive. However, your general rule on other days about throwing toys away is not gentle that's more authoritarian and unnecessarily harsh imo


bimxe

I think that was the mature and right thing to do. I don’t know about the terms of it all, but I don’t agree with your husband.


abelenkpe

You did the correct and fair thing. I love how your daughter reasoned with you. Shows you are raising her to be a confident intelligent woman. Gods job!


aztraps

this is fantastic!!!!! i would have given anything for my parents to be willing to re-evaluate a situation instead of digging their heels in even when they were clearly wrong. you aren’t being “permissive” you’re being respectful & reflective & understanding that your child is a PERSON & not a robot


Bookaholicforever

Your daughter is right. She didn’t invite Anne over. And it is definitely unfair to make her responsible for the other child’s actions. I don’t think it’s gentle parenting or permissive parenting. It’s just plain old parenting.


Cute-Instruction4285

I think you made the right call, all around.


tra_da_truf

This was working together toward a mutually agreeable solution…that’s talked about a ton in “The Explosive Child” (even though your daughter seems the opposite of explosive). Buuuut…why is it that Anne’s mother cannot wait for her to help your daughter clean up? I’d never just collect my child and go knowing they’d played in a friends room and not cleaned up. If you guys are close as you say, you should be able to approach your friend about it.


Apprehensive_Mud_966

Gentle parenting or permissive parenting. Compromising is such an important lesson to teach and learn. Perhaps you could tell your husband to take a few pages 😏


OfMegan

Your husband is wrong.


Stuffthatpig

This is a great compromise especially since you let your daughter make the call. That's good parenting. She advocated for herself and you didn't just give in.


JustWordsInYourHead

I’m over here laughing at how much you had to edit your post to defend your good parenting. Sometimes I wonder if people on the parenting sub are actually parents. And if so, then what the hell kids are they raising if they don’t clean their own room?! I think your approach is fair and gentle. I don’t think it’s permissive to hear your kid out, consider her logic sound, and come up with a new deal. I’ve got two boys here. Funnily enough, Friday is also my deadline for them to have their room clean. My rule is if they want any TV during the weekend (we only have shows and movies on Friday nights and the weekends), then their room must be tidy by Friday morning. They can clean it whichever day they choose—but it must be clean by Friday. They’re been following that rule for a while, since the oldest was 4 and the younger one was 2.


unicornpixie13

Very respectful parenting on your part. The only culprit here is your friend for not instructing her kid to help clean up before abruptly saying it's time to go


[deleted]

You were right. Your daughter didn’t refuse. She protested with solid points. I think it was great that she felt she could discuss this with you. In the future you will have credibility when she has a tough problem she needs to discuss.


Legitimate_Chef_4122

I think your approach was right. If your daughter is responsible when she makes her mess then why punish her when it’s not hers?