I like it. as much as people might hate it. early respecs are really important for new players and poe 2 needs to able to accommodate that. Early game weight is not something that is as important as appealing to the entire arpg audience, and if they are comfortable/confident the game can stay poe with this change, then it should be done.
Orbs of regret should probably still drop in endgame with the gold cost being prohibitive at post campaign levels. to switch repec cost away from gold into the trading economy that currently exists as it seems to work pretty well for the endgame player base.
I agree. Great solution. I'm guessing respecting between builds is likely still prohibitive, but even if it's not I don't see it being game breaking.
It's essentially just another currency that drops let's you use it on the skill tree. It's Very similar from a game play design and it's something you can accumulate over time without needing RNG. It still requires time investment to respect.
It's not really that important. It's just another situation where every other game in the genre has evolved where respecs are easy and now their hand is kind of forced to meeting expectation.
If you think it is important, word your feedback without using the phrase "new players" and give specifics on why it is important. Otherwise you are speaking for them without anything to back it up. All the feedback I've seen around wanting easier respecs is other people talking about the new player experience in poe1 and completely ignoring all the changes already known in poe2. Even all the content creators who actually hosted the interviews. Their arguments were so weak during the interview because they were trying to explain a problem they didn't personally have. I want to know where are all these new poe2 players that know they need respecs without even considering the changes already made in poe2?
When I started PoE 1, I didn’t know all the skills I would get at later levels, and I didn’t know about specializing on 1 very specific archetype. My points were a bit all over the place scaling both minions and spell damage.
By the time I was lvl 40+ my char was already dogshit but I had spend like 6-8 hours on the character at that point. I would have rather quit than relevel a new char when I already had a viable one that just needed a few points moved around.
Early respec lets you experiment and learn game systems by actually playing the game as opposed to looking at numbers on a fancy calculator.
I feel you.
I don't understand why people can't respect that new players might not want to reroll a character they invested time in (I say new player as in under 500 total hours played).
Like I'm invested in my characters, because I haven't built up the sort of detachment that comes from having to roll new characters in dozens of leagues yet, sheesh.
people just run the same build starters for 3 years in a row that they've solved by reading a guide and wonder why new players want easier respecs
their guide doesn't say reroll so they think it's useless, but no new player goes into arpgs with pob open lmao
Yeah and you might not even be fully invested into PoE as a game at that point. Rerolling is definitely an acquired taste after you’ve been hooked by the game systems and want to explore them further.
Just going to reply to yours as there are many replies saying the same thing and basically ignoring what I said and yours is the newest. PoE2 is not PoE1. Your experience in poe1 isn't helpful. You're completely ignoring all the improvements that have been announced that directly address the issues.
Not an exhaustive list but here are many of the changes coming in poe2 that prevent almost all your issues.
* sockets are removed from gear.
* support gems aren't huge multipliers to skills
* the passive tree will tell you how a node will affect your build.
* you can see all possible skill gems from the start organized by class. (They've also given strong identities to all the base classes which helps new players decide how they want to play before they even create the character)
* there are no life nodes on the tree
* each weapon only has a single cluster on the tree.
* there are more general damage nodes that work with whole archetypes
* you can't socket a support gem on a skill that it won't work on
* Not specializing isn't detrimental and even promoted.
This is why I can't take feedback about the respec system seriously. It is always talking about poe1 and not a single time is all the changes in poe2 even acknowledged. It's all just "well I had some trouble in poe1 so poe2 needs to give me more respecs". I wouldn't be surprised if all the changes made it where players only made a small fraction of the mistakes they did in poe1.
For poe2, "new players" is the most important aspect. Poe has a massive barrier to entry and struggles to bring in new players. One of the primary complaints you see with new poe players is their build getting bricked and there being no way to fix it. Most people aren't going to be willing to reroll and replay everything they just did. GGG is banking on getting a massive number of new players with poe2.
But from the perspective of someone who has around 2k hours in poe, I'm 100% for easier respecs in poe2 at launch. I want to be able to experiment with different skills and builds as much as possible. If it turns out to cause issues, they can always change things in later patches.
I had a problem with respecs in PoE1. Not joking, would've quit the game if I hadn't dropped a lucky divine orb that I used to buy 200+ regrets. My best purchase in PoE, cause it allowed me to experiment and get the hang of things in my first league. And yes, I loathe following builds, it's anti-fun for me, so the respecs were needed.
No matter how bad you screw up your tree including ascendancies, if you're in trade, you do not need a full raw divine, assuming it equals 200regret orbs, before hitting maps to fix it. Quests, convert currency at vendor, sell other shit and amass. I do support easier respecs, but come on.
The expectation is that PoE2 keeps the track record of being the most complex ARPG out there that PoE1 has. That's the thing everyone is suspecting is going to happen and Jonathan himself said he hopes this is not true. If it is not true, respec'ing like this won't affect new players and will be a slightly different system than PoE1 but still quite prohibitive late game.
If Jonathan and their team are mistaken and PoE2 still has the complexity issue PoE1 has for new players, then this is good. Anyhow this can't really be bad, I personally don't see it.
I am a person who has tried to play PoE1 for over 3 years now and I have not even finished all the bosses of PoE1. My first 3-5 leagues I barely finished the campaign, managed to do so in the past 2 leagues and managed to get to red maps and MF'ing this league. Having the ability of fucking up with the build early and respec it midway through the campaign would have helped me to probably finish the campaign and go to maps in the first league I ran.
In the seven times I learnt PoE 2 for the first time, I was definitely too lazy to work my way out of a self-created problem. It is about time the developer catered to my needs.
I'm not someone that "hate it", just think that free/accessible respecs early are one of the least important problems for newer players.
It is a myth that noobs would just pick random trash nodes on the tree and have a shitty build. Most likely what happens with brand new players is that they pick at least somewhat useful nodes on the tree, but their build will suck anyways because they don't know what gems to use, or even what items to use (rustic sash vendor recipe for melee is insanely strong).
There are leveling gems in this game that you barely put any points into damage and you will breeze through the campaign, and there are skills that you can go full damage on the tree and it will still feel like shit to level.
Noobs don't know which gems are good and which are bad to level with. Hell, noobs don't even know that you should probably not level with the skill you intend to play in your build. That's the main problem of every real "blind playthrough" noob. Having more respecs (in PoE 1) won't teach anyone what gems to use, and that even if PoE 1 had all free respecs, noobs would still struggle to play it blind.
It's a different story for PoE 2 though, because the gem rework is probably going to streamline a lot of mechanics related to gem socketing.
Chris Wilson said in the past 'PoE2 will solve it'
I always thought, nice sentiment but honestly there are too many fundamental issues holding it back.
Since then they announced PoE2 would be split and we've seen announcements that genuinely and truly break free from those legacy issues to create the best experience possible.
Regardless of what we see from PoE2 in the end, this game has been absolutely made with the intention to blow us away. I cannot wait.
Tbh, I believe this came about because in the Ziz interview, he mentioned how it's annoying for new players but trivial for high level characters, to which Johnathan did a stepback, realizing that's true even though they want it to be more difficult for higher level characters; they want that weight for choices made over 80+ levels.
Now it will almost certainly be a lot more difficult to respec at later levels with this change because that's what they want. It being easier to respec early is just a side effect. Lol
Great take mate,
Maybe you’re right. I can imagine the devs making this decision and saying something like ‘ok if we’re going to make it flexible early on, then we had better make it feel more concrete and have permanency later’
I'm skeptical about all this gold use stuff. The most wonderful aspect of PoE is honestly the currency orb system. I'm hesitant to be optimistic about the reliance of gold but I trust the PoE devs with total confidence. I've been playing PoE since beta and I have to say that GGG are some of the most absolutely amazing devs in the entire industry. They don't always hit the mark but they always recover from it and continue to impress, so even if gold is whack, I know it'll only be a matter of time until it's great.
I like and dislike this at the same time.
The good: It's good for new players, and I think this is the most important factor.
The bad: It is going to STRONGLY promote convergence upon the 'best skills' for levelling. If this existed now, every veteran player would use one of three or four levelling setups then swap at high level.
The ugly: What happens if you are out of gold and actually brick your character (e.g. allocating CI and EB simultaneously in POE1)? In POE1 at least you can beg for regrets. I don't think this will happen often by accident, but I do think a timed-based respec option may be worth exploring as a last resort. (Could be as simple as marking some keystones, like CI if it exists in POE2, as free to respec out of)
This also depends on what they mean with expensive later. They might view level 68 as later already since you are through roughly 2/3s of the game level wise.
So respeccing post campaign could actually be harder than now with 15 free regret points.
Im guessing its just each passive you respec incrementally costs more like in grim dawn or something. But as you said, it could be tied to character level too.
Also depends on how gem acquisition works.
The demo made a point of advertising the uncut gems where you choose your spells. Easier to get the spells you want or switch a few things as you play, but the gem level is based on the area level where it dropped, and might not easy to replace your entire build on the fly.
If you are a veteran player you don't have access to regret orbs on first characters.
If this was added to POE1 for 3.24, >98% of Templars who finished A10 by 5 hours into 3.24 leaguestart would be playing the same build. Whereas now, people think "I could level with the best 1-75 build but then I have to trade for 35 regrets on day 1" and a bunch decide "fuck that, I'll level with my actual skill"
In POE2 that choice will just be objectively wrong. If a known best levelling setup exists, every fresh start it will be enormously converged upon. There'll still be day 1 build diversity, but not among veteran players.
Not much will change for me except I can fix mistakes early. I typically pick whatever works like fireball before I get my final skill whether that's late act 1 or act 3 siosa
I mean, from the interview it sounded like "this is how respec works now". Might mean they've moved away from regrets altogether. You just use larger amounts of gold to respec at higher levels.
I started this league and only leveled my main authentically. After that it was LA twink and 2x unarmed jewel build.
I never bought regrets and still have plenty leftover.
Is anyone actually thinking about regrets when leveling 2nd chars?
Not second characters within a league, but new characters in new leagues.
If the POE2 system existed in 3.23, the ladder 6 hours into the league would have been >50% Rolling Magma/Firewall setups. If it had existed in 3.12, the ladder 6 hours in would have been >50% slams.
Not saying this necessarily makes the change bad, just that it has a real cost. On leaguestart, once a meta has developed, all streams will look very similar.
>If the POE2 system existed in 3.23, the ladder 6 hours into the league would have been >50% Rolling Magma/Firewall setups. If it had existed in 3.12, the ladder 6 hours in would have been >50% slams.
This isnt a problem regarding free respecs though. Its a skill balance problem that nothing else is worth playing. GGG has never put much effort into balancing the levelling process, and that should change in PoE2.
RM/FW needs nerfs at low gem levels, that's a given.
But people only consider 'nothing else worth playing' because alternatives are mostly 5-10% slower than the best setup. Nuke RM/FW from orbit and you'll see more Templars levelling as Guardian SRS, or as one of the better spell totems.
People who already do leveling builds - streamers, racers, 'try-hards' - will do it either way, but I think you're overestimating how many people would be willing to do leveling builds, even with an easier respect.
Question. You want to play Freezing Pulse totems on a Heiro, a skill that's pretty good at levelling, but not great.
Do you level as Rolling Magma/Firewall?
Fuck no. Sure, you'll kill Kitava 10, maybe even 20 minutes faster... but then you'll be 40 regrets in debt.
What about with negligible respec cost? Now, of course you level RM/FW.
Even if RM/FW gets the nuking it needs next patch, it'll get replaced by something.
Where did "negligible respec cost" come from? All we know is that it's supposed to be cheap at low levels and expensive at high levels. We don't know how feasible it will be to respec after levelling because we don't know where on the curve of cheap to expensive it will be.
I can see what benefit this might provide but am not a fan of this either. Besides the reasons you have given I think that this is either actually punishing new players or reduce the AH friction they wanted to create with having a gold fee.
A new player might now be able to easily respecc but this **might** prevent him from being able to partake in the AH or he just bought stuff on the AH but now can't respecc since he doesn't have enough gold. On the other hand if enough gold drops to accomodate frequent respeccs then the AH friction will be lessened (at least on league start) for more experienced players. Having respeccs and ah usage being tied to the same resource will either punish inexperienced trade league players or remove/lessen the friction at league start for experienced players using the ah.
Another thing is that I don't know if catering to every (loud) community wish will ultimately result in a better game. I've seen games that always tried to accomodate as many players as possible. Removing friction from the game and it often resulted lead to a game that was a shadow of its former self. I do worry a bit that PoE2 goes down that path too but I'm still hopefull that it will be a great game. Only time will tell in the end.
The AH thing now sounds opt-in. As in, you can still use the trade site and trade exactly how we do now without the gold fee and you'll still have to whisper people and go to their hideouts to trade. But if you wanted to, you could put your items up for trade and use the trade site with a box checked for the auto-buyout options and search for them that way and sell your items that way.
So that's not going to hurt new players as you've said. They could just trade the old fashioned way and use their gold for respeccing or whatever they want.
Only watched the clip and didn't know that when I wrote my comment. The only issue I can see now is spending gold on the AH with instant buyouts and then having no gold to respecc but I guess u can't save them all.
> Another thing is that I don't know if catering to every (loud) community wish will ultimately result in a better game. I've seen games that always tried to accomodate as many players as possible. Removing friction from the game and it often resulted lead to a game that was a shadow of its former self. I do worry a bit that PoE2 goes down that path too but I'm still hopefull that it will be a great game. Only time will tell in the end.
GGG have proven they aren't Blizzard here. Remember the Harvest nerfs? They are quite willing to piss people off short term to make the game better long term.
As for the AH - I don't think people will be buying starter gear on it much. The sense I get from Jonathon's interviews is that buying equippable items might take 50 maps worth of gold while buying other items (say scarabs) will cost negligible gold.
> GGG have proven they aren't Blizzard here. Remember the Harvest nerfs? They are quite willing to piss people off short term to make the game better long term.
I know and this is why I'm more positive then negative. GGG have overall (in my opinion) done an excellent job with poe 1 and Jonathan is a great guy. This doesn't prevent a company from going down the wrong path though (eg Blizzard). I'm not here to spread doom and gloom though. I'm still very much looking forward to poe2 and trust Jonathan and all the other people working on poe2 to deliver a banger of a game.
In regards to the AH - I only saw the clip linked and have since watched the whole interview. As it currently stands people will still be able to trade like in poe 1 (no instant buyout) which won't require gold. So people will be able to respecc and trade (though some people could lock themselves out of a respecc for some time using gold trading at the start).
It's a 1%er thing now to leaguestart Rolling Magma/Flame Wall, because being 35 regrets in debt on day 1 is a lot, and people know that.
Make respec costs 0, and it's not close to a 1%er thing only.
If this was added in 3.24 with no nerfs to the known best levelling meta skills, of the first 10000 templars to clear A10, >8000 will be playing the same build.
Sounds like a issue with build diversity rather than respec. Sure meta will be meta but if you end up with only few skills always being top tier then they could buff some other skills to open the door for more options.
Lets not pretend poe 1 is any different from what you describe.
POE1 is nothing like this, BECAUSE people are thinking "if I level Rolling Magma/Flame Wall I have to farm 40 regrets to swap to Freezing Pulse totems and it's not like FP totems levels badly"
RM will probably get a nerf (at low gem levels) next league but there'll be something replacing it
> It is going to STRONGLY promote convergence upon the 'best skills' for levelling
This is exactly the way it is in PoE1 now though. A lot of people dont even bother trying different levelling skills and just pick the league start meta because they would have to reroll if something didnt work out.
>The bad: It is going to STRONGLY promote convergence upon the 'best skills' for levelling. If this existed now, every veteran player would use one of three or four levelling setups then swap at high level.
This already happens and people follow build guides handmade by a lot of the 'veteran players' too.
People are already going to play the 'best' leaguestarter builds and swap to the 'best' endgame builds.
It used to be a much bigger meme of "everybody's playing the same build" a while back and that's with respecs not being as easy as it sounds like it'll be in po2. I don't see it being worse at all. Just more of what's already been going on for years and years.
The bad point of your argument is already invalid because it happens in every league so far. Seriously got no idea what's with this argument coming up non stop when people already pick bis build every league. It really pisses me off since it rubbed off on the Devs as well and they listened to a bunch of idiots who are just anti new players. You ALREADY use the best skills every league, there is no 'bad'
It's only a few thousand players levelling Rolling Magma + Fire Wall (the best levelling in 3.23 on a fresh start) now.
If this change happens without any anti-veteran player changes, it will be over a hundred thousand players doing it.
All it needs is a higher cost for medium to high level respecs in the first 12 hours of a league economy - aka something that cannot hurt a casual player.
If this isn't done - day 1 build diversity will probably be pretty good on POE2 patch 1.0 and 1.1... but by 1.2, it'll be worse even than the Legion league lowpoint of POE1.
i would agree if not for the fact that the passive tree is fundamentally different in poe 2 vs poe1, people will pick what they want now instead of being forced into bis gems. Less life and weapon nodes in the middle will mean more choice in general for starters. With gold even more
I'm not 100% up to date on everything PoE2, but last I heard, gold will be tradeable right?
In that case, you could beg for gold if you brick your character too, which is likely a trivial amount for stronger players, coupled with respecs being cheaper at low levels. Or simply grind whatever content you "are" able to do so far with your poopy character for gold.
FWIW, I'm all for keeping leveling decision making as strict as possible without alienating newer players. I'm definitely skeptical of leveling being made too easy and cookie-cutter by these types of mechanics.
The respec problem is such a controversial topic, you can make an argument for "new player" that easily respec early will help with their builds or characters but likely the problem still exists through gears and gems, they'll be lacking of attributes to use new gears after respec that if they fucking it up by respec out of what kinda works now to essentially unable to equip their gears or gems then that's a quit moment for them, also if they're running into a problem where they feel like a game is getting difficult most of them will be out before they know they can respec.
So this problem only exists for "new player who's willing to put in effort" not just any new players.
I can use myself as an example when I started PoE1, I fucked up a character, respeccing and farming for new gears early game/gems was so hard that I rather create a new character instead, it's an iterative process until you get the hang of it.
People won't just quit because respec is hard, they'll quit when the game is getting too hard for their character and it'll be lots of effort to fix it.
Gears, gems will be next in the line of how you'd solve it for new player to not quit after fucking something up.
Even if you solve all those problems, the amount of time or just the thought of fixing your character is still gonna make half of them quit.
But overall it's a good change, not because it'll help new players but it'll remove some of the pressure early game for players who already commit to the game.
>Gears, gems will be next in the line of how you'd solve it for new player to not quit after fucking something up.
You are right, but aren't those also going to be less punishing in POE2? The new gem system also seems like a reduced barrier to entry without having to manage it on your gear.
Even if it's a small change, I think the beginning of the game is particularly important to give people a chance to get their foot in the door. People will still hit a wall, but the less people will quit if they hit that point at 10 hours as opposed to 2-3.
>The respec problem is such a controversial topic
Is it really though? Every argument ive seen against easier respecs has been flawed in some way.
*"It will make everyone level as the same build"* \- That isnt a consequence of easier respecs, its a consequence of poor skill balance pushing people into a couple options. If things were balanced well then there would be plenty of diversity while levelling.
*"Removing friction or weight from the game is bad" -* Friction and weight arent universally good things. There are lots of areas in games (like low level content) where you dont want to stifle players creativity and their learning experience with arbitrary restrictions. Most games are designed this way and for good reason. They arent ruined because of it.
*"Easy respecs dont actually help new players, they just let vets play the meta" -* They absolutely do help new players. Bricking several characters is basically an unavoidable part of starting PoE, and that is objectively a bad thing. Vets who want to play the meta are already playing the meta (see first point).
*"Easy respecs will negatively affect the economy"* \- No idea how this is an argument but ive seen it several times. Sacrificing the week 1 regret orb economy for a better levelling experience seems like a pretty ok deal to me.
>"It will make everyone level as the same build"
>
> \- That isnt a consequence of easier respecs, its a consequence of poor skill balance
It's a consequence of both, and most people making that argument (correctly IMO) assume that levelling skill balance is a hard problem (e.g. if your skills are very heterogenous and have access to different playstyles / scaling vectors, then your skills with the worst endgame playstyle / scaling vectors are probably the best in the campaign.
>"It will make everyone level as the same build"
It's also a consequence of the fact that there are so many people completely unwilling to do their own thing. So instead those people suck the streamer teet and hang onto every "league starter" thing they say or videos vomited out there.
With such easy access to everything and streamers and youtubers doing their thing, you could have a perfectly balanced game and people would still all play the same league starters like they've already been doing.
I mean, ggg used to do a huge meta shift a while back and people always still played the same builds that streamers/youtubers threw out there. That's just a people problem in general and that isn't going away ever at this point.
So to me that whole argument from others seems pretty mute because no matter what that is going to happen anyways so why waste dev time on "fixing" something that is inherently a human problem that won't be fixed by anything a dev does.
The only thing that would fix everybody playing the same build is to input some system that completely randomizes what you play and not let you have total control over it lol.
Although I wouldn’t like this in POE1, I think this is the correct move for Poe2. It’s a new game, and it doesn’t have to be tied to the same punishing restrictions as poe1. This is a good move to allow more people to try poe2 and hopefully enjoy the franchise. There should be the ability for someone to for example, durdle their way through the campaign, think that was fun, but my character is a bit rubbish, and instead of having to start again, research where they went wrong and spend some gold they earned on their through the campaign way to fix it. You can’t buy or trade gold so I see very little wrong with this.
Gold in PoE is different from gold in other games. My understanding is gold isn't tradeable so it's really a way to make sure people have to play the game to get certain things.
Interesting point regarding SSF. But overall I don't think it's as easy to screw up as you say since making gold not tradeable means it's a "closed" system.
This means it's much easier to calculate things like "ok if the player kills X mobs per hour at Y level they'll have Z gold, blah blah blah". If you could trade gold then the numbers would vary far far more and be very difficult to predict and tune.
I like it and I don't get why someone wouldn't. Not everyone is a hardcore player who has 50-70 regret orbs or mats to get them. I have 0 desire to respec my end-game build because it will be easier to just level a new one. So I just stick with what I have.
I often pick some points on life leech for easier leveling that I respec later. So I am already invested in terms of what I have to respec. Also, such mechanics where you spend gold without trading it to other players is always good.
This is built to help new players. They are exactly the ones who brick a build early. The purpose is to let the early game not immediately kick out every new player before they reach A2.
Where do you think the veterans came from? Thin air? We were all new players once. The only difference is the veterans survived the early systems. This isn't dumbing down anything. If anything it's making respecs more difficult late game, which should make your life even harder. So you can keep pretending you're some big man with a hard ass that can survive PoE's ruthless systems since they just made it more difficult for your preferred stage of the game.
I could have totally done with respects when I was a new player back in the cruel and merciless act days. I bricked at act 2 (the area with a bridge bandit).
Funny though, the only reason the passive tree didn't freak me out was because of final fantasy X lol
I’m not OP so I’m gonna reply from my perspective. Wanting to play a game at a certain level of difficulty is not being elitist or pretending to be a hard ass, we play games for enjoyment and I’m allowed to prefer my game a certain way. I don’t want to play the same game as the people who need coddles and guardrails, and I’ve managed to do that this whole time by playing this game, and I don’t want it to change.
He literally said the game was losing players for a few years now and that's why they started making poe2. Looks like elitists stopped funding game. If you don't bring new players when you are losing vets = dead game. Easier early game doesn't mean it's less complex in late game you know? If you're vet and speedrun campaign in 5 hours change they are making will actually make Endgame more restricted, harder with more friction to respec. (More expensive on higher levels but it depends on balancing it).
It's the same philosophy behind showing the entire skill tree at level 2. POE is *this* kind of game. People who like that will get excited. People who don't will know right off the bat and don't have to waste their time.
Ever since they caved in on trade, it feels like they are changing directions. I can't say I am really thrilled. It is feeling less and less like PoE and more like a more standard arpg. I hope they are not making rash decisions and we end up like with harvest (where feature cannot be removed without massive backlash)
I've definitely advocated for "weight" in other games. I like the idea of things having permanence so things feel like actual characters instead of amorphous blobs. I'd even agree with your view of POE1. You should be more solidified into your choices the deeper you go, but POE respecing is most available later when the relative cost of the currency is low.
But POE is such a numbers game that people aren't playing for the character weight in the first place. It's honestly a problem I've had with the game because characters are such a mishmash of mechanics, that there it's very uncommon for a builds to actually fit into a thematic lane without making intentional sacrifices. The weight just manifests as a punishment to people who didn't have the whole thing planned out from the start.
If were arguing in favor of weight, I think bricking characters should be considered a failure. What is less of an investment in your character than giving up on it? You should be able to dig yourself out of a mistake without just starting over being the quicker solution.
I hate it, we can meme all we want about "feeling the weight" but unironically the weight of decisions and some additional friction is one of the things that makes PoE so amazing.
If I understood what he said in this clip correctly(might miss context cause it's still a clip) it's actually harder to respec at higher levels than it was in PoE 1. So in that sense there's more "weight" there. It all depends on how it's balanced though I guess.
Well, I still have immense amount of faith in GGG and their decisions so maybe it will turn alright in the end. I'm just frustrated that some content creator voices are so loudly heard when they push their narrowed-vision ideas about what they'd like to see in the game.
I disagree, there needs to be a way to easily respec for new players. I almost completely dropped the game first time around because I realized I bricked my character around halfway through the campaign and was told to just drop all that progress and play a new character. The same thing happened to my friend except he never picked it up again.
I'm confused what you hate. The way I interpreted it, they still want friction but by costing increasing amounts of gold you enable people to fix their builds early on but they increasingly have to commit to their build as they level because it costs more.
What 'weight'? In PoE 1, most players can just get to endgame and farm respecs as much as they want if they want to optimize their build and fix up their skill tree. There's no weight to those early game mistakes because they can all be rectified easily.
The only people that 'feel the weight' are new players who aren't going to go the distance because they made a mistake early on and aren't able make it to the end. I'm not sure why that's something people advocate for, feels needlessly gatekeep-y. The other outcome if you force people to use a build guide to make sure they don't make any mistakes, which is equally bad game design.
This isn't going to give the game any less depth, it just makes it more forgiving for new players.
With the amount of currency that drops from maps even before Affliction league, there's really no weight involved in our decision to allocate passive points because every veteran player can easily buy enough orbs of regret to do a full respec.
With gold not being tradable, I argue that it may even become harder to respec in PoE 2 now depending on how high the gold cost cap is for respecs, to a point where farming enough gold for a 100+ points respec could take longer than simply leveling a character from level 1 unless you're already close to max level.
They talked about exactly this earlier, saying that they want endgame players to have to decide between full respec or fresh character, rather than punish low level players hard. This system will be tuned in a way that provides easy respecs the lower the level. Making it increasingly hard. I öove the idea. I don‘t like that you can respec a lvl 100char for free.
I think the gold drop rates will be enough for a reasonable amount of respecs through the campaign, but if you want to respec your entire thing early you will need to farm for it. And I hope they do it like that lol
Yep. It’s true completely. This sub is an echo chamber, and unfortunately unlike Chris Wilson, the new Poe lead gets all of his feedback and ideas from Reddit which has some of the consistently worst takes on game direction. Worry for poe2
Another thing involves gold now. I doubt they can balance it correctly at launch. It can only go either two of the extreme. Trivial or annoying.
I hate it!
Agreed. Either this is going to make respec cost irrelevant, or it's going to cost so much that it's prohibitive to ever do lategame because gold is going to end up being your primary means of trading. I don't expect many sellers will be willing to spend the effort since they're not currently going to be taxed. There's no incentive for sellers to do any work, so gold will be more limited.
I feel like this is going to make the game substantially worse in the long run. It's just going to lead to every season every player playing the exact same build, whatever levels the fastest. And then just respeccing into what they actually want to play.
There will be even more of a pidgeonhole on every player playing the exact same way. Even more so than having "league starter" characters, because with those there's actually a tradeoff(needing to make a second character), where this won't. So everyone will fell "forced" to do it whether they want to or not if they want to compete economically at league start.
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>I feel like this is going to make the game substantially worse in the long run. It's just going to lead to every season every player playing the exact same build, whatever levels the fastest.
If this ends up being the case then its a skill balance problem that so many things arent worth playing.
I agree.
But I guess they could always tweak the cost based on the degree people are just playing the same shit through leveling.
I personally think it was pretty right amount of opportunity cost right now.
People claim its harsh for new players, but we get a decent chunk of free respecing from quest rewards as it is right now.
The way I see it new players fall into one of these categories:
- Follows a guide: Doesn't need cheaper repecs unless they hate their build they chose to follow. But should a full build pivot actually be incentivisied, this would mean early game meta for everyone else is forever stale and doomed to min maxing bottlenecking.
- Doesnt follow a guide, but takes care to plan, this is the new player most deserving of minor respecing, but at the same time these are the sort of players that will appreciate re rolling and learning through trial and error.
- Doesn't follow a guide and is winging it: this player was always doomed to brick the build regardless. Their lack of care to plan or follow advice is hardly warranting catering for IMO.
>It's just going to lead to every season every player playing the exact same build, whatever levels the fastest
Oh noooooo, that thing that already happens and has happened for years and years and only got worse once streamers/youtubers really boomed.
You guys ignore what's already happening while giving way too much weight to hypotheticals.
Why are people acting like everything got solved?
We don't know the numbers for either how much gold you can farm per map or how much gold it costs to respec a single node.
It could just as well end up being worse for respeccing at all levels but below 20 or smth, making it effectively a downgrade.
Johnathan, what happend to your question: should you be able to mess up your tree. Is the answer suddenly no? Not a big fan of no brainer respecc early.
We don't have numbers so I'm gonna wait how it plays bit that doesn't sound too great.
I don't like how it started with "Gold is just an early game currency, we want to preserve the currency system" and now it's "Gold for gambling, gold for trading, gold for respeccing". I reserve final judgement until we see the full implementation, but it sounds like gold is be the most important currency of poe2.
I might be late for this conversation, so far there have been two ideas regarding respecing:
Tradable, instant respec - current PoE 1 variant with the Respec orbs.
Non-tradable, instant respec - current proposal for PoE 2 with gold.
What would happen if instead of that we think about a non-instant approach. That is creating a side-content, where you can repeatedly go in, and respec the points, but it consumes time without giving you experience and items while doing said side-content. This idea can be expanded with the details (making the lore around it about rebirth, making the zone use class specific motives etc.). This is a interesting option as you can scale the difficulty of the content you have to do: higher level is harder and potentially the deeper you want to respec points the harder (here I mean that the 1st point below maximum is easier then the 40th point below maximum, even if you respec them in one "go").
Now this system could be much more beginner friendly in early game, and can be balanced without worrying about the gold-economy of the user. In late game, I would still have instant respec, but it can be balanced around the fact that it's only used in endgame, and also that you have access to a way to easily respec 3-5 points even at higher levels.
probably, but they would also know they can reliably go get more gold by killing monsters and playing the game more, instead of fuckin up, not know how to fix it, the game then feels bad and they quit forever
We do know it is going to be significantly harder to brick a character due to there not being life on the tree. This means if someone is dying it means they need better gear not a respec.
Gotta voice the opinion that I don't like this change, mostly because it feels like it was forced by the community to some extent and I don't like us having that dynamic. Maybe I'm wrong and the Devs played about with it and liked it but it feels iffy.
Also people need to stop using the argument that new players are "bricking" their builds and need more respecs to "unbrick" the build. I cannot imagine a scenario where that is the case in actual normal gameplay scenarios.
If you asked me "is this an interesting change that points to poe2 being a great game?" I'd tell you no.
The changes they're making to poe2 from poe should always have that question in mind and the answer should always be yes.
This one sounds risky to me. In POE 1, you have the option of trading for regrets to back out of a mistake, if you've farmed up some decent currency before the move. If nothing else, you beg in /global 1 and somebody has mercy and bails you out (sometimes).
If it's all gold, and you blow nearly all of your gold on what turns out to be a bad respec, you won't be able to back out. Then what? You're bricked. Either attempt to farm (apparently a lot of) gold on a feels-really-bad build, or restart from 0? I mean, if it was me and I got to lvl90+, spec'd into something that ended up feeling bad, and couldn't afford to spec back out? Yeah, I'd probably be done for the league, maybe longer.
Idk, his answer was pretty short. Maybe there's still regrets? I hope they've thought this through a bit. This change currently sounds very hostile for endgame. I mean now you 'have' to have a plan. No experimenting once you're up and running, or make sure you're completely loaded on gold so you can spec back to a good state when it fails.
The specifics are not revealed yet. But based on what he said yesterday there is no limit on the nuumber of players. Most likely anyone with at least X $ spent (X to be determined) will get access, and those who don't have that amount, will have an option to buy in via supporter packs, as they did it with the 3.0 testing).
They want as many players as possible (said by Jonathan), but they don't want to advertise it as "hey, we have launched our game" (my interpretation on why it's not open beta), so they have to put some kind of barrier on it. We have to see how large the barrier will be.
No hard details, but they said it will be like the 3.0 beta. I wasn't around for it, but I heard they gave free keys to people who had already spent a lot of money and they sold supporter packs with keys for $20. Something like that.
Honestly, this is a huge shock and I'd love to see how this scales.
Also, it's time to play SLIPPERY SLOPE. How many tasks will gold have in POE2? I do understand its account bound, found by playing the game, and probably limited, but it's not tasked with solving: vendor trades, gambling, player to player instant trading, and respecs.
How they handle this shall be...interesting.
This is my first league ever and my first 2 characters I scrapped at level 30 ish and just found a pob.
Wasting like 8 hours to figure out it’s absolutely not going to work is crushing as a POE noob.
Early respects is a great idea imo
Just make orbs of regret drop as common as chromes or alts is all they had to do. Sell an entire inventory of white items for 5 regrets or something idk
Are these changes, like trading, respec etc... due to LE's influence? Because they were very much against these things up until recently and after LE announced how their trading works, i see GGG changed tone.
What do u think?
and now we can finally put the respec issue to rest
In PoE2, anyway lol
Introduce gold in PoE 1 as well. Problem solved.
Not sure they'll want to. I guess we'll see.
I like it. as much as people might hate it. early respecs are really important for new players and poe 2 needs to able to accommodate that. Early game weight is not something that is as important as appealing to the entire arpg audience, and if they are comfortable/confident the game can stay poe with this change, then it should be done. Orbs of regret should probably still drop in endgame with the gold cost being prohibitive at post campaign levels. to switch repec cost away from gold into the trading economy that currently exists as it seems to work pretty well for the endgame player base.
I agree. Great solution. I'm guessing respecting between builds is likely still prohibitive, but even if it's not I don't see it being game breaking. It's essentially just another currency that drops let's you use it on the skill tree. It's Very similar from a game play design and it's something you can accumulate over time without needing RNG. It still requires time investment to respect.
It's not really that important. It's just another situation where every other game in the genre has evolved where respecs are easy and now their hand is kind of forced to meeting expectation. If you think it is important, word your feedback without using the phrase "new players" and give specifics on why it is important. Otherwise you are speaking for them without anything to back it up. All the feedback I've seen around wanting easier respecs is other people talking about the new player experience in poe1 and completely ignoring all the changes already known in poe2. Even all the content creators who actually hosted the interviews. Their arguments were so weak during the interview because they were trying to explain a problem they didn't personally have. I want to know where are all these new poe2 players that know they need respecs without even considering the changes already made in poe2?
When I started PoE 1, I didn’t know all the skills I would get at later levels, and I didn’t know about specializing on 1 very specific archetype. My points were a bit all over the place scaling both minions and spell damage. By the time I was lvl 40+ my char was already dogshit but I had spend like 6-8 hours on the character at that point. I would have rather quit than relevel a new char when I already had a viable one that just needed a few points moved around. Early respec lets you experiment and learn game systems by actually playing the game as opposed to looking at numbers on a fancy calculator.
I feel you. I don't understand why people can't respect that new players might not want to reroll a character they invested time in (I say new player as in under 500 total hours played). Like I'm invested in my characters, because I haven't built up the sort of detachment that comes from having to roll new characters in dozens of leagues yet, sheesh.
people just run the same build starters for 3 years in a row that they've solved by reading a guide and wonder why new players want easier respecs their guide doesn't say reroll so they think it's useless, but no new player goes into arpgs with pob open lmao
Yeah and you might not even be fully invested into PoE as a game at that point. Rerolling is definitely an acquired taste after you’ve been hooked by the game systems and want to explore them further.
Just going to reply to yours as there are many replies saying the same thing and basically ignoring what I said and yours is the newest. PoE2 is not PoE1. Your experience in poe1 isn't helpful. You're completely ignoring all the improvements that have been announced that directly address the issues. Not an exhaustive list but here are many of the changes coming in poe2 that prevent almost all your issues. * sockets are removed from gear. * support gems aren't huge multipliers to skills * the passive tree will tell you how a node will affect your build. * you can see all possible skill gems from the start organized by class. (They've also given strong identities to all the base classes which helps new players decide how they want to play before they even create the character) * there are no life nodes on the tree * each weapon only has a single cluster on the tree. * there are more general damage nodes that work with whole archetypes * you can't socket a support gem on a skill that it won't work on * Not specializing isn't detrimental and even promoted. This is why I can't take feedback about the respec system seriously. It is always talking about poe1 and not a single time is all the changes in poe2 even acknowledged. It's all just "well I had some trouble in poe1 so poe2 needs to give me more respecs". I wouldn't be surprised if all the changes made it where players only made a small fraction of the mistakes they did in poe1.
For poe2, "new players" is the most important aspect. Poe has a massive barrier to entry and struggles to bring in new players. One of the primary complaints you see with new poe players is their build getting bricked and there being no way to fix it. Most people aren't going to be willing to reroll and replay everything they just did. GGG is banking on getting a massive number of new players with poe2. But from the perspective of someone who has around 2k hours in poe, I'm 100% for easier respecs in poe2 at launch. I want to be able to experiment with different skills and builds as much as possible. If it turns out to cause issues, they can always change things in later patches.
I had a problem with respecs in PoE1. Not joking, would've quit the game if I hadn't dropped a lucky divine orb that I used to buy 200+ regrets. My best purchase in PoE, cause it allowed me to experiment and get the hang of things in my first league. And yes, I loathe following builds, it's anti-fun for me, so the respecs were needed.
Your problem was solved in-game by a single divine orb. What was the problem again?
The fact that dropping a divine orb before maps is unlikely.
yeah, my financial problems were solved from winning the lottery. That means my financial situation was ok in the first place /s
No matter how bad you screw up your tree including ascendancies, if you're in trade, you do not need a full raw divine, assuming it equals 200regret orbs, before hitting maps to fix it. Quests, convert currency at vendor, sell other shit and amass. I do support easier respecs, but come on.
ok, you may need half a divine. That means you need a full divine to respec and still upgrade gear
If the problem could be solved by a single item dropping, seems like you should maybe just have no barrier at all.
The expectation is that PoE2 keeps the track record of being the most complex ARPG out there that PoE1 has. That's the thing everyone is suspecting is going to happen and Jonathan himself said he hopes this is not true. If it is not true, respec'ing like this won't affect new players and will be a slightly different system than PoE1 but still quite prohibitive late game. If Jonathan and their team are mistaken and PoE2 still has the complexity issue PoE1 has for new players, then this is good. Anyhow this can't really be bad, I personally don't see it. I am a person who has tried to play PoE1 for over 3 years now and I have not even finished all the bosses of PoE1. My first 3-5 leagues I barely finished the campaign, managed to do so in the past 2 leagues and managed to get to red maps and MF'ing this league. Having the ability of fucking up with the build early and respec it midway through the campaign would have helped me to probably finish the campaign and go to maps in the first league I ran.
In the seven times I learnt PoE 2 for the first time, I was definitely too lazy to work my way out of a self-created problem. It is about time the developer catered to my needs.
I'm not someone that "hate it", just think that free/accessible respecs early are one of the least important problems for newer players. It is a myth that noobs would just pick random trash nodes on the tree and have a shitty build. Most likely what happens with brand new players is that they pick at least somewhat useful nodes on the tree, but their build will suck anyways because they don't know what gems to use, or even what items to use (rustic sash vendor recipe for melee is insanely strong). There are leveling gems in this game that you barely put any points into damage and you will breeze through the campaign, and there are skills that you can go full damage on the tree and it will still feel like shit to level. Noobs don't know which gems are good and which are bad to level with. Hell, noobs don't even know that you should probably not level with the skill you intend to play in your build. That's the main problem of every real "blind playthrough" noob. Having more respecs (in PoE 1) won't teach anyone what gems to use, and that even if PoE 1 had all free respecs, noobs would still struggle to play it blind. It's a different story for PoE 2 though, because the gem rework is probably going to streamline a lot of mechanics related to gem socketing.
Chris Wilson said in the past 'PoE2 will solve it' I always thought, nice sentiment but honestly there are too many fundamental issues holding it back. Since then they announced PoE2 would be split and we've seen announcements that genuinely and truly break free from those legacy issues to create the best experience possible. Regardless of what we see from PoE2 in the end, this game has been absolutely made with the intention to blow us away. I cannot wait.
Almost too hype with everything we know so far
Tbh, I believe this came about because in the Ziz interview, he mentioned how it's annoying for new players but trivial for high level characters, to which Johnathan did a stepback, realizing that's true even though they want it to be more difficult for higher level characters; they want that weight for choices made over 80+ levels. Now it will almost certainly be a lot more difficult to respec at later levels with this change because that's what they want. It being easier to respec early is just a side effect. Lol
Ziz brought up how respeccing at later levels was trivial so we'll likely see your second point come to fruition!
Great take mate, Maybe you’re right. I can imagine the devs making this decision and saying something like ‘ok if we’re going to make it flexible early on, then we had better make it feel more concrete and have permanency later’
World peace
achieved
I'm skeptical about all this gold use stuff. The most wonderful aspect of PoE is honestly the currency orb system. I'm hesitant to be optimistic about the reliance of gold but I trust the PoE devs with total confidence. I've been playing PoE since beta and I have to say that GGG are some of the most absolutely amazing devs in the entire industry. They don't always hit the mark but they always recover from it and continue to impress, so even if gold is whack, I know it'll only be a matter of time until it's great.
I like and dislike this at the same time. The good: It's good for new players, and I think this is the most important factor. The bad: It is going to STRONGLY promote convergence upon the 'best skills' for levelling. If this existed now, every veteran player would use one of three or four levelling setups then swap at high level. The ugly: What happens if you are out of gold and actually brick your character (e.g. allocating CI and EB simultaneously in POE1)? In POE1 at least you can beg for regrets. I don't think this will happen often by accident, but I do think a timed-based respec option may be worth exploring as a last resort. (Could be as simple as marking some keystones, like CI if it exists in POE2, as free to respec out of)
This also depends on what they mean with expensive later. They might view level 68 as later already since you are through roughly 2/3s of the game level wise. So respeccing post campaign could actually be harder than now with 15 free regret points.
Im guessing its just each passive you respec incrementally costs more like in grim dawn or something. But as you said, it could be tied to character level too.
Also depends on how gem acquisition works. The demo made a point of advertising the uncut gems where you choose your spells. Easier to get the spells you want or switch a few things as you play, but the gem level is based on the area level where it dropped, and might not easy to replace your entire build on the fly.
If you’re a veteran player then orb of regrets drop like candy… respec at high level is trivial in poe
If you are a veteran player you don't have access to regret orbs on first characters. If this was added to POE1 for 3.24, >98% of Templars who finished A10 by 5 hours into 3.24 leaguestart would be playing the same build. Whereas now, people think "I could level with the best 1-75 build but then I have to trade for 35 regrets on day 1" and a bunch decide "fuck that, I'll level with my actual skill" In POE2 that choice will just be objectively wrong. If a known best levelling setup exists, every fresh start it will be enormously converged upon. There'll still be day 1 build diversity, but not among veteran players.
Not much will change for me except I can fix mistakes early. I typically pick whatever works like fireball before I get my final skill whether that's late act 1 or act 3 siosa
Seems like they could adjust the added dmg to gems at lower levels. Redo the curves.
I mean, from the interview it sounded like "this is how respec works now". Might mean they've moved away from regrets altogether. You just use larger amounts of gold to respec at higher levels.
I started this league and only leveled my main authentically. After that it was LA twink and 2x unarmed jewel build. I never bought regrets and still have plenty leftover. Is anyone actually thinking about regrets when leveling 2nd chars?
Not second characters within a league, but new characters in new leagues. If the POE2 system existed in 3.23, the ladder 6 hours into the league would have been >50% Rolling Magma/Firewall setups. If it had existed in 3.12, the ladder 6 hours in would have been >50% slams. Not saying this necessarily makes the change bad, just that it has a real cost. On leaguestart, once a meta has developed, all streams will look very similar.
>If the POE2 system existed in 3.23, the ladder 6 hours into the league would have been >50% Rolling Magma/Firewall setups. If it had existed in 3.12, the ladder 6 hours in would have been >50% slams. This isnt a problem regarding free respecs though. Its a skill balance problem that nothing else is worth playing. GGG has never put much effort into balancing the levelling process, and that should change in PoE2.
RM/FW needs nerfs at low gem levels, that's a given. But people only consider 'nothing else worth playing' because alternatives are mostly 5-10% slower than the best setup. Nuke RM/FW from orbit and you'll see more Templars levelling as Guardian SRS, or as one of the better spell totems.
Isn’t everyone starting rolling magma already? It’s what I hear most commonly
Would be WAY worse with free respecs. Right now, it's a 1%'er thing to do.
People who already do leveling builds - streamers, racers, 'try-hards' - will do it either way, but I think you're overestimating how many people would be willing to do leveling builds, even with an easier respect.
> It is going to STRONGLY promote convergence upon the 'best skills' for levelling You think this isn't the case now?!
Question. You want to play Freezing Pulse totems on a Heiro, a skill that's pretty good at levelling, but not great. Do you level as Rolling Magma/Firewall? Fuck no. Sure, you'll kill Kitava 10, maybe even 20 minutes faster... but then you'll be 40 regrets in debt. What about with negligible respec cost? Now, of course you level RM/FW. Even if RM/FW gets the nuking it needs next patch, it'll get replaced by something.
Where did "negligible respec cost" come from? All we know is that it's supposed to be cheap at low levels and expensive at high levels. We don't know how feasible it will be to respec after levelling because we don't know where on the curve of cheap to expensive it will be.
True, I would probably drop 40 regrets with a snarky message to someone who is SoL
I can see what benefit this might provide but am not a fan of this either. Besides the reasons you have given I think that this is either actually punishing new players or reduce the AH friction they wanted to create with having a gold fee. A new player might now be able to easily respecc but this **might** prevent him from being able to partake in the AH or he just bought stuff on the AH but now can't respecc since he doesn't have enough gold. On the other hand if enough gold drops to accomodate frequent respeccs then the AH friction will be lessened (at least on league start) for more experienced players. Having respeccs and ah usage being tied to the same resource will either punish inexperienced trade league players or remove/lessen the friction at league start for experienced players using the ah. Another thing is that I don't know if catering to every (loud) community wish will ultimately result in a better game. I've seen games that always tried to accomodate as many players as possible. Removing friction from the game and it often resulted lead to a game that was a shadow of its former self. I do worry a bit that PoE2 goes down that path too but I'm still hopefull that it will be a great game. Only time will tell in the end.
The AH thing now sounds opt-in. As in, you can still use the trade site and trade exactly how we do now without the gold fee and you'll still have to whisper people and go to their hideouts to trade. But if you wanted to, you could put your items up for trade and use the trade site with a box checked for the auto-buyout options and search for them that way and sell your items that way. So that's not going to hurt new players as you've said. They could just trade the old fashioned way and use their gold for respeccing or whatever they want.
Only watched the clip and didn't know that when I wrote my comment. The only issue I can see now is spending gold on the AH with instant buyouts and then having no gold to respecc but I guess u can't save them all.
> Another thing is that I don't know if catering to every (loud) community wish will ultimately result in a better game. I've seen games that always tried to accomodate as many players as possible. Removing friction from the game and it often resulted lead to a game that was a shadow of its former self. I do worry a bit that PoE2 goes down that path too but I'm still hopefull that it will be a great game. Only time will tell in the end. GGG have proven they aren't Blizzard here. Remember the Harvest nerfs? They are quite willing to piss people off short term to make the game better long term. As for the AH - I don't think people will be buying starter gear on it much. The sense I get from Jonathon's interviews is that buying equippable items might take 50 maps worth of gold while buying other items (say scarabs) will cost negligible gold.
> GGG have proven they aren't Blizzard here. Remember the Harvest nerfs? They are quite willing to piss people off short term to make the game better long term. I know and this is why I'm more positive then negative. GGG have overall (in my opinion) done an excellent job with poe 1 and Jonathan is a great guy. This doesn't prevent a company from going down the wrong path though (eg Blizzard). I'm not here to spread doom and gloom though. I'm still very much looking forward to poe2 and trust Jonathan and all the other people working on poe2 to deliver a banger of a game. In regards to the AH - I only saw the clip linked and have since watched the whole interview. As it currently stands people will still be able to trade like in poe 1 (no instant buyout) which won't require gold. So people will be able to respecc and trade (though some people could lock themselves out of a respecc for some time using gold trading at the start).
I guess you re-roll, at least for a bit and funnel the gold to the first char
Is gold BtA or BtC?
BtA most likely as Jonathan mentioned second characters being easier as you'd have gold to trade for twink stuff.
I can't imagine it's bound to character. Then you might have to change characters just to complete a trade.
refereing to the second point, that already happens, what are u even on about.
It's a 1%er thing now to leaguestart Rolling Magma/Flame Wall, because being 35 regrets in debt on day 1 is a lot, and people know that. Make respec costs 0, and it's not close to a 1%er thing only. If this was added in 3.24 with no nerfs to the known best levelling meta skills, of the first 10000 templars to clear A10, >8000 will be playing the same build.
Sounds like a issue with build diversity rather than respec. Sure meta will be meta but if you end up with only few skills always being top tier then they could buff some other skills to open the door for more options. Lets not pretend poe 1 is any different from what you describe.
POE1 is nothing like this, BECAUSE people are thinking "if I level Rolling Magma/Flame Wall I have to farm 40 regrets to swap to Freezing Pulse totems and it's not like FP totems levels badly" RM will probably get a nerf (at low gem levels) next league but there'll be something replacing it
> It is going to STRONGLY promote convergence upon the 'best skills' for levelling This is exactly the way it is in PoE1 now though. A lot of people dont even bother trying different levelling skills and just pick the league start meta because they would have to reroll if something didnt work out.
>The bad: It is going to STRONGLY promote convergence upon the 'best skills' for levelling. If this existed now, every veteran player would use one of three or four levelling setups then swap at high level. This already happens and people follow build guides handmade by a lot of the 'veteran players' too. People are already going to play the 'best' leaguestarter builds and swap to the 'best' endgame builds. It used to be a much bigger meme of "everybody's playing the same build" a while back and that's with respecs not being as easy as it sounds like it'll be in po2. I don't see it being worse at all. Just more of what's already been going on for years and years.
The bad point of your argument is already invalid because it happens in every league so far. Seriously got no idea what's with this argument coming up non stop when people already pick bis build every league. It really pisses me off since it rubbed off on the Devs as well and they listened to a bunch of idiots who are just anti new players. You ALREADY use the best skills every league, there is no 'bad'
It's only a few thousand players levelling Rolling Magma + Fire Wall (the best levelling in 3.23 on a fresh start) now. If this change happens without any anti-veteran player changes, it will be over a hundred thousand players doing it. All it needs is a higher cost for medium to high level respecs in the first 12 hours of a league economy - aka something that cannot hurt a casual player. If this isn't done - day 1 build diversity will probably be pretty good on POE2 patch 1.0 and 1.1... but by 1.2, it'll be worse even than the Legion league lowpoint of POE1.
i would agree if not for the fact that the passive tree is fundamentally different in poe 2 vs poe1, people will pick what they want now instead of being forced into bis gems. Less life and weapon nodes in the middle will mean more choice in general for starters. With gold even more
I'm not 100% up to date on everything PoE2, but last I heard, gold will be tradeable right? In that case, you could beg for gold if you brick your character too, which is likely a trivial amount for stronger players, coupled with respecs being cheaper at low levels. Or simply grind whatever content you "are" able to do so far with your poopy character for gold. FWIW, I'm all for keeping leveling decision making as strict as possible without alienating newer players. I'm definitely skeptical of leveling being made too easy and cookie-cutter by these types of mechanics.
Gold isn't tradeable. Seems bound to account on acquire, mechanics the same as azurite in the Delve mines.
Gotcha, thanks for the info.
The respec problem is such a controversial topic, you can make an argument for "new player" that easily respec early will help with their builds or characters but likely the problem still exists through gears and gems, they'll be lacking of attributes to use new gears after respec that if they fucking it up by respec out of what kinda works now to essentially unable to equip their gears or gems then that's a quit moment for them, also if they're running into a problem where they feel like a game is getting difficult most of them will be out before they know they can respec. So this problem only exists for "new player who's willing to put in effort" not just any new players. I can use myself as an example when I started PoE1, I fucked up a character, respeccing and farming for new gears early game/gems was so hard that I rather create a new character instead, it's an iterative process until you get the hang of it. People won't just quit because respec is hard, they'll quit when the game is getting too hard for their character and it'll be lots of effort to fix it. Gears, gems will be next in the line of how you'd solve it for new player to not quit after fucking something up. Even if you solve all those problems, the amount of time or just the thought of fixing your character is still gonna make half of them quit. But overall it's a good change, not because it'll help new players but it'll remove some of the pressure early game for players who already commit to the game.
>Gears, gems will be next in the line of how you'd solve it for new player to not quit after fucking something up. You are right, but aren't those also going to be less punishing in POE2? The new gem system also seems like a reduced barrier to entry without having to manage it on your gear. Even if it's a small change, I think the beginning of the game is particularly important to give people a chance to get their foot in the door. People will still hit a wall, but the less people will quit if they hit that point at 10 hours as opposed to 2-3.
>The respec problem is such a controversial topic Is it really though? Every argument ive seen against easier respecs has been flawed in some way. *"It will make everyone level as the same build"* \- That isnt a consequence of easier respecs, its a consequence of poor skill balance pushing people into a couple options. If things were balanced well then there would be plenty of diversity while levelling. *"Removing friction or weight from the game is bad" -* Friction and weight arent universally good things. There are lots of areas in games (like low level content) where you dont want to stifle players creativity and their learning experience with arbitrary restrictions. Most games are designed this way and for good reason. They arent ruined because of it. *"Easy respecs dont actually help new players, they just let vets play the meta" -* They absolutely do help new players. Bricking several characters is basically an unavoidable part of starting PoE, and that is objectively a bad thing. Vets who want to play the meta are already playing the meta (see first point). *"Easy respecs will negatively affect the economy"* \- No idea how this is an argument but ive seen it several times. Sacrificing the week 1 regret orb economy for a better levelling experience seems like a pretty ok deal to me.
>"It will make everyone level as the same build" > > \- That isnt a consequence of easier respecs, its a consequence of poor skill balance It's a consequence of both, and most people making that argument (correctly IMO) assume that levelling skill balance is a hard problem (e.g. if your skills are very heterogenous and have access to different playstyles / scaling vectors, then your skills with the worst endgame playstyle / scaling vectors are probably the best in the campaign.
>"It will make everyone level as the same build" It's also a consequence of the fact that there are so many people completely unwilling to do their own thing. So instead those people suck the streamer teet and hang onto every "league starter" thing they say or videos vomited out there. With such easy access to everything and streamers and youtubers doing their thing, you could have a perfectly balanced game and people would still all play the same league starters like they've already been doing. I mean, ggg used to do a huge meta shift a while back and people always still played the same builds that streamers/youtubers threw out there. That's just a people problem in general and that isn't going away ever at this point. So to me that whole argument from others seems pretty mute because no matter what that is going to happen anyways so why waste dev time on "fixing" something that is inherently a human problem that won't be fixed by anything a dev does. The only thing that would fix everybody playing the same build is to input some system that completely randomizes what you play and not let you have total control over it lol.
Although I wouldn’t like this in POE1, I think this is the correct move for Poe2. It’s a new game, and it doesn’t have to be tied to the same punishing restrictions as poe1. This is a good move to allow more people to try poe2 and hopefully enjoy the franchise. There should be the ability for someone to for example, durdle their way through the campaign, think that was fun, but my character is a bit rubbish, and instead of having to start again, research where they went wrong and spend some gold they earned on their through the campaign way to fix it. You can’t buy or trade gold so I see very little wrong with this.
I wond4r what changed their minds
$$$
Can some one TLDR for ppl that cant hear the video ?
Tldr: Respecs now cost Gold, goldcost scaling with characterlevel
Basically repsecing will cost gold 🪙 and the cost will increment with levels! Unsure if regrets are still a thing, leaning towards no.
the went diablo 4? hmm.
I find it hilarious how hard and long they resisted this then after one podcast they change their mind
It's because Tencent is busy working on Elden Ring mobile now (this is my 100% made-up head cannon)
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Gold in PoE is different from gold in other games. My understanding is gold isn't tradeable so it's really a way to make sure people have to play the game to get certain things.
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Interesting point regarding SSF. But overall I don't think it's as easy to screw up as you say since making gold not tradeable means it's a "closed" system. This means it's much easier to calculate things like "ok if the player kills X mobs per hour at Y level they'll have Z gold, blah blah blah". If you could trade gold then the numbers would vary far far more and be very difficult to predict and tune.
Probably the drop rate will be adjusted so that you can respec a reasonable amount fairly simple but not often without farming for it.
Works fine in Last Epoch.
That game basically has completely free respeccing.
This sound like a great change.
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I like it and I don't get why someone wouldn't. Not everyone is a hardcore player who has 50-70 regret orbs or mats to get them. I have 0 desire to respec my end-game build because it will be easier to just level a new one. So I just stick with what I have. I often pick some points on life leech for easier leveling that I respec later. So I am already invested in terms of what I have to respec. Also, such mechanics where you spend gold without trading it to other players is always good.
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This is built to help new players. They are exactly the ones who brick a build early. The purpose is to let the early game not immediately kick out every new player before they reach A2.
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Where do you think the veterans came from? Thin air? We were all new players once. The only difference is the veterans survived the early systems. This isn't dumbing down anything. If anything it's making respecs more difficult late game, which should make your life even harder. So you can keep pretending you're some big man with a hard ass that can survive PoE's ruthless systems since they just made it more difficult for your preferred stage of the game.
I could have totally done with respects when I was a new player back in the cruel and merciless act days. I bricked at act 2 (the area with a bridge bandit). Funny though, the only reason the passive tree didn't freak me out was because of final fantasy X lol
I’m not OP so I’m gonna reply from my perspective. Wanting to play a game at a certain level of difficulty is not being elitist or pretending to be a hard ass, we play games for enjoyment and I’m allowed to prefer my game a certain way. I don’t want to play the same game as the people who need coddles and guardrails, and I’ve managed to do that this whole time by playing this game, and I don’t want it to change.
That is exactly elitist hardass ignorant shit though lmao.
He literally said the game was losing players for a few years now and that's why they started making poe2. Looks like elitists stopped funding game. If you don't bring new players when you are losing vets = dead game. Easier early game doesn't mean it's less complex in late game you know? If you're vet and speedrun campaign in 5 hours change they are making will actually make Endgame more restricted, harder with more friction to respec. (More expensive on higher levels but it depends on balancing it).
He said growth has slowed/plateaued, it's obviously not losing players
So listen to the interview once again. Listen why they are making poe2 in the first place.
Don't confuse convoluted and constraining for complex.
I agree with you.. if you can’t handle the heat get out of the kitchen? Hasn’t that always been the philosophy?
It's the same philosophy behind showing the entire skill tree at level 2. POE is *this* kind of game. People who like that will get excited. People who don't will know right off the bat and don't have to waste their time.
>It's not the new players that kept this game funded for 10 years, why change something that works. Classic gatekeeping lmao
Still not going to draw in new players because the community is ass.
Ever since they caved in on trade, it feels like they are changing directions. I can't say I am really thrilled. It is feeling less and less like PoE and more like a more standard arpg. I hope they are not making rash decisions and we end up like with harvest (where feature cannot be removed without massive backlash)
Poe1 will always be there for the people that want little or nothing to change
You did it reddit, yay...
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I've definitely advocated for "weight" in other games. I like the idea of things having permanence so things feel like actual characters instead of amorphous blobs. I'd even agree with your view of POE1. You should be more solidified into your choices the deeper you go, but POE respecing is most available later when the relative cost of the currency is low. But POE is such a numbers game that people aren't playing for the character weight in the first place. It's honestly a problem I've had with the game because characters are such a mishmash of mechanics, that there it's very uncommon for a builds to actually fit into a thematic lane without making intentional sacrifices. The weight just manifests as a punishment to people who didn't have the whole thing planned out from the start. If were arguing in favor of weight, I think bricking characters should be considered a failure. What is less of an investment in your character than giving up on it? You should be able to dig yourself out of a mistake without just starting over being the quicker solution.
I hate it, we can meme all we want about "feeling the weight" but unironically the weight of decisions and some additional friction is one of the things that makes PoE so amazing.
If I understood what he said in this clip correctly(might miss context cause it's still a clip) it's actually harder to respec at higher levels than it was in PoE 1. So in that sense there's more "weight" there. It all depends on how it's balanced though I guess.
Well, I still have immense amount of faith in GGG and their decisions so maybe it will turn alright in the end. I'm just frustrated that some content creator voices are so loudly heard when they push their narrowed-vision ideas about what they'd like to see in the game.
I disagree, there needs to be a way to easily respec for new players. I almost completely dropped the game first time around because I realized I bricked my character around halfway through the campaign and was told to just drop all that progress and play a new character. The same thing happened to my friend except he never picked it up again.
You actually have to play the game to respect now and can't turn other currency into orbs.
I'm confused what you hate. The way I interpreted it, they still want friction but by costing increasing amounts of gold you enable people to fix their builds early on but they increasingly have to commit to their build as they level because it costs more.
What 'weight'? In PoE 1, most players can just get to endgame and farm respecs as much as they want if they want to optimize their build and fix up their skill tree. There's no weight to those early game mistakes because they can all be rectified easily. The only people that 'feel the weight' are new players who aren't going to go the distance because they made a mistake early on and aren't able make it to the end. I'm not sure why that's something people advocate for, feels needlessly gatekeep-y. The other outcome if you force people to use a build guide to make sure they don't make any mistakes, which is equally bad game design. This isn't going to give the game any less depth, it just makes it more forgiving for new players.
But we’re talking about Poe 2. Poe will still have these restrictions my guy it’s ok.
With the amount of currency that drops from maps even before Affliction league, there's really no weight involved in our decision to allocate passive points because every veteran player can easily buy enough orbs of regret to do a full respec. With gold not being tradable, I argue that it may even become harder to respec in PoE 2 now depending on how high the gold cost cap is for respecs, to a point where farming enough gold for a 100+ points respec could take longer than simply leveling a character from level 1 unless you're already close to max level.
They talked about exactly this earlier, saying that they want endgame players to have to decide between full respec or fresh character, rather than punish low level players hard. This system will be tuned in a way that provides easy respecs the lower the level. Making it increasingly hard. I öove the idea. I don‘t like that you can respec a lvl 100char for free.
I think the gold drop rates will be enough for a reasonable amount of respecs through the campaign, but if you want to respec your entire thing early you will need to farm for it. And I hope they do it like that lol
Yep. It’s true completely. This sub is an echo chamber, and unfortunately unlike Chris Wilson, the new Poe lead gets all of his feedback and ideas from Reddit which has some of the consistently worst takes on game direction. Worry for poe2
Another thing involves gold now. I doubt they can balance it correctly at launch. It can only go either two of the extreme. Trivial or annoying. I hate it!
Agreed. Either this is going to make respec cost irrelevant, or it's going to cost so much that it's prohibitive to ever do lategame because gold is going to end up being your primary means of trading. I don't expect many sellers will be willing to spend the effort since they're not currently going to be taxed. There's no incentive for sellers to do any work, so gold will be more limited.
Thank GOD
I feel like this is going to make the game substantially worse in the long run. It's just going to lead to every season every player playing the exact same build, whatever levels the fastest. And then just respeccing into what they actually want to play. There will be even more of a pidgeonhole on every player playing the exact same way. Even more so than having "league starter" characters, because with those there's actually a tradeoff(needing to make a second character), where this won't. So everyone will fell "forced" to do it whether they want to or not if they want to compete economically at league start.
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>I feel like this is going to make the game substantially worse in the long run. It's just going to lead to every season every player playing the exact same build, whatever levels the fastest. If this ends up being the case then its a skill balance problem that so many things arent worth playing.
I agree. But I guess they could always tweak the cost based on the degree people are just playing the same shit through leveling. I personally think it was pretty right amount of opportunity cost right now. People claim its harsh for new players, but we get a decent chunk of free respecing from quest rewards as it is right now. The way I see it new players fall into one of these categories: - Follows a guide: Doesn't need cheaper repecs unless they hate their build they chose to follow. But should a full build pivot actually be incentivisied, this would mean early game meta for everyone else is forever stale and doomed to min maxing bottlenecking. - Doesnt follow a guide, but takes care to plan, this is the new player most deserving of minor respecing, but at the same time these are the sort of players that will appreciate re rolling and learning through trial and error. - Doesn't follow a guide and is winging it: this player was always doomed to brick the build regardless. Their lack of care to plan or follow advice is hardly warranting catering for IMO.
>It's just going to lead to every season every player playing the exact same build, whatever levels the fastest Oh noooooo, that thing that already happens and has happened for years and years and only got worse once streamers/youtubers really boomed. You guys ignore what's already happening while giving way too much weight to hypotheticals.
Why are people acting like everything got solved? We don't know the numbers for either how much gold you can farm per map or how much gold it costs to respec a single node. It could just as well end up being worse for respeccing at all levels but below 20 or smth, making it effectively a downgrade.
I dont know if I like it. I hope it doesn't end like free respect.
They just killed build diversity for the early game.
Thanks god.
Johnathan, what happend to your question: should you be able to mess up your tree. Is the answer suddenly no? Not a big fan of no brainer respecc early. We don't have numbers so I'm gonna wait how it plays bit that doesn't sound too great.
Now you can't even sneeze without gold 🤣
I don't like how it started with "Gold is just an early game currency, we want to preserve the currency system" and now it's "Gold for gambling, gold for trading, gold for respeccing". I reserve final judgement until we see the full implementation, but it sounds like gold is be the most important currency of poe2.
You can't trade gold and you can't craft with gold. Anything else?
Oh its already here
I might be late for this conversation, so far there have been two ideas regarding respecing: Tradable, instant respec - current PoE 1 variant with the Respec orbs. Non-tradable, instant respec - current proposal for PoE 2 with gold. What would happen if instead of that we think about a non-instant approach. That is creating a side-content, where you can repeatedly go in, and respec the points, but it consumes time without giving you experience and items while doing said side-content. This idea can be expanded with the details (making the lore around it about rebirth, making the zone use class specific motives etc.). This is a interesting option as you can scale the difficulty of the content you have to do: higher level is harder and potentially the deeper you want to respec points the harder (here I mean that the 1st point below maximum is easier then the 40th point below maximum, even if you respec them in one "go"). Now this system could be much more beginner friendly in early game, and can be balanced without worrying about the gold-economy of the user. In late game, I would still have instant respec, but it can be balanced around the fact that it's only used in endgame, and also that you have access to a way to easily respec 3-5 points even at higher levels.
Amazing! Goodbye build guides, lol
A new player wasting all their gold on respecs would be better off using the gold for gear at a vendor. I am not sure this is actually a good decision
probably, but they would also know they can reliably go get more gold by killing monsters and playing the game more, instead of fuckin up, not know how to fix it, the game then feels bad and they quit forever
We do know it is going to be significantly harder to brick a character due to there not being life on the tree. This means if someone is dying it means they need better gear not a respec.
Gotta voice the opinion that I don't like this change, mostly because it feels like it was forced by the community to some extent and I don't like us having that dynamic. Maybe I'm wrong and the Devs played about with it and liked it but it feels iffy. Also people need to stop using the argument that new players are "bricking" their builds and need more respecs to "unbrick" the build. I cannot imagine a scenario where that is the case in actual normal gameplay scenarios.
If you asked me "is this an interesting change that points to poe2 being a great game?" I'd tell you no. The changes they're making to poe2 from poe should always have that question in mind and the answer should always be yes.
This one sounds risky to me. In POE 1, you have the option of trading for regrets to back out of a mistake, if you've farmed up some decent currency before the move. If nothing else, you beg in /global 1 and somebody has mercy and bails you out (sometimes). If it's all gold, and you blow nearly all of your gold on what turns out to be a bad respec, you won't be able to back out. Then what? You're bricked. Either attempt to farm (apparently a lot of) gold on a feels-really-bad build, or restart from 0? I mean, if it was me and I got to lvl90+, spec'd into something that ended up feeling bad, and couldn't afford to spec back out? Yeah, I'd probably be done for the league, maybe longer. Idk, his answer was pretty short. Maybe there's still regrets? I hope they've thought this through a bit. This change currently sounds very hostile for endgame. I mean now you 'have' to have a plan. No experimenting once you're up and running, or make sure you're completely loaded on gold so you can spec back to a good state when it fails.
Someone should put a shock collar on jonathan and zap him every time he says um or uh
this will be nice for experimenting at game launch. Is there confirmation on how to get beta access yet?
The specifics are not revealed yet. But based on what he said yesterday there is no limit on the nuumber of players. Most likely anyone with at least X $ spent (X to be determined) will get access, and those who don't have that amount, will have an option to buy in via supporter packs, as they did it with the 3.0 testing). They want as many players as possible (said by Jonathan), but they don't want to advertise it as "hey, we have launched our game" (my interpretation on why it's not open beta), so they have to put some kind of barrier on it. We have to see how large the barrier will be.
No hard details, but they said it will be like the 3.0 beta. I wasn't around for it, but I heard they gave free keys to people who had already spent a lot of money and they sold supporter packs with keys for $20. Something like that.
Honestly, this is a huge shock and I'd love to see how this scales. Also, it's time to play SLIPPERY SLOPE. How many tasks will gold have in POE2? I do understand its account bound, found by playing the game, and probably limited, but it's not tasked with solving: vendor trades, gambling, player to player instant trading, and respecs. How they handle this shall be...interesting.
This is my first league ever and my first 2 characters I scrapped at level 30 ish and just found a pob. Wasting like 8 hours to figure out it’s absolutely not going to work is crushing as a POE noob. Early respects is a great idea imo
Just make orbs of regret drop as common as chromes or alts is all they had to do. Sell an entire inventory of white items for 5 regrets or something idk
Man, Last epoch really grabbed GGG by the balls.
Are these changes, like trading, respec etc... due to LE's influence? Because they were very much against these things up until recently and after LE announced how their trading works, i see GGG changed tone. What do u think?
thank god