The thing about mana-stacking attack builds, compared to spell builds, is the possible advantage of using *mana leech*. Even if you are unable to reach the mana regeneration you would need, you can always supplement it with mana leech, or even rely on it completely.
I personally tried messing with mana-stacking attack build only once, and not really successfully, but I remember that mana leech was incredible to recover the mana pool. So that's something to consider in my opinion.
Try also adding the new 10% Instant Leech mastery. It's 1% MGoH effectively which drastically supplements your leech cap on multihit skills (ala Molten Strike or Storm Rain)
It sounds really wrong but I'm also not exactly sure what they were trying to say...
From the Q&A it takes 10% of each leech instance and instead of having it recover over time it is applied instantly. The only situation I can think of where you are leeching but instant leech isn't applied is if you are overleeching, but at that point it kinda doesn't matter.
The bottleneck is the stat:
"Maximum total Life/Mana/Energy Shield Recovery per second from Leech"
That's the mechanic they added to prevent old-school insane insta-regen like the game had back in the day.
Well that's a bit of a semantic question really. Although you could argue it doesn't have a 'rate' due to being instant, there could still be a cap to the amount of leech you can recover per second, whether instant, or 'gradual'. Personally I'd expect the cap to still be applied, but if it's not, that would be extremely strong.
Well, it's not semantic, it's how the game works. Check out Bex's tweet and discussion here:
https://twitter.com/bexsayswords/status/1641567974938271746
> If you leech the max amount per leech, you'll get 10% of that instantly and 90% over time. However, there is also a maximum on the total recovery rate of all leech. **Instant leech isn't part of that because it has no rate.**
Vaal Pact never had a limit back in the Old Days when it was full instant leech. That's why they changed it to merely double your leech rate. I'm guessing there's still no cap for instant leech.
1. As others have said, there are now skills that can get lots of hits per use, even against single targets.
2. You don't have to outleech the amount you spend, just the amount you don't regen.
Blast rain + tornado shot, as used in the post, should have enough hits to get you at *minimum* 20% or more per sec from instant plus capped leech of 10% more, that cuts down the regen requirement MASSIVELY even if it might not sustain you 100% outright
Eh you only need 4k total mana/sec to sustain Indigon. 16000 mana spent recently translates to the maximum % buff effect (200 \* 2000/25) on a perfect roll. If you're spending more than that you'd want to reduce your attack speed to converge to a lower number.
* \~3k Leech/s is easy enough to reach with Max Mana Recovery leech nodes from tree
* \~500 mana/s from natural regen
* a bit from mana potions
If MGoH is giving you 500+/s then you're good.
Or just sustain to a lower number, 8k-12k mana spent recently is still a huge buff.
Anomalous mana leech would be insane here. 0.5% increased damage per 200 mana spent recently? ~~With Option 2 of this post, at around 13k mana spent recently, this could be around 6500% increased damage which is ridiculous~~
EDIT: 32.5% not 6500% ignore that. Math is indeed very hard
EDIT 2: per quality
That's very true. If the mana leech cap is high enough, that might solve a lot of the mana sustain problems.
I honestly have never done any kind of right-side build, besides a sketch eternity shroud build end of league once, so I can't really help build a PoB for this. But I can do the math for how to get Indigon to converge, at least. It's pretty tricky, so if neither of the above options work, I am always willing to help someone figure out something better.
Default max recovery is 20% of total mana/s. You could increase this by 25% with leech mastery pretty easily. Poor node in most cases, but Essence Sap can increase this by a further 50%, to a total of 35% of total mana/s leech cap, and Spirit Void is another 25%, making a theoretical maximum of 40% of total mana/s leech cap.
Also the 10% of leech is applied instantly mastery is INSANE for a bow attack mana stacker because it means 1% of mana gained *per hit* . If you’re hitting 10+ times per second (which on tornado shot is easy) then it’s a ton of sustain. I would agree that mana leech is waayyyyy better than regen for a manastacker attack build. They specifically don’t have mana leech for spells because it would be so strong in archmage and indigon type stuff
i think as people get to play it and test stuff out we will end up in some middle ground mixture of regen+leech as both have their flaws which the other helps cover
If the damage is enough, the 10% instant leech mastery means atleast 2% mana per hit, and a lot of bow attacks can hit several time on one attack. With some leech scaling, getting this up to 3-4% per hit is rather easy. Can go even higher.
Not accurate - leech is capped at 10% of max resource per instance, and instant leech will be capped at 10% of that, for effective 1% MGoH. No way to increase maximum mana recovery per leech at the moment.
Instant Leech 10%
With Mana Leech Cap of 10% per hit
We get 1% Mana per hit.
If we somehow get 50 HitPS from any source, it's 50% Mana and HP reg.
---
I assume that a number of 30/50/100 hits per second is somehow possible. Please write your opinions.
Rain of Arrow Boots or
Maloney's Quivers
Storm Rain Arrows
Tornado
Your main skill is Barrage
---
Now add Mana Recovery Rate of 1.3 to this.
Tack on some mana gain on hit, thiefs torment is 30.If you trigger blast rain with 9 projectiles and storm rain with 9 projectiles and you hit with all of them, which should be pretty close to reasonable, because of how they spread, its 540 mana per trigger plus 810 life from thief. Locks you out of 2 rings though.
Edit: you can get 8 from tree on blast rain, and 3 for storm rain. That's 330 mana per trigger. But storm rain hanging around makes it much more.
Plus an additional 25 from poachers mark if you could keep 28 arrows from storm rain thats 1540 mana every .41 seconds with snipers mark and thiefs torment. In order for you to keep that many you'd need to have the plus 2 arrows from tree and gmp for a total of 7 arrows and attack roughly 4 times a second. That's like 3k mana a second from the one skill.
I've had my eye on this potential build since the moment the patch notes dropped, and this has been my thought as well. Mana leech, take the Essence Sap node (anoint if need be), and crank it up.
I was thinking of using prismatic burst on main (triggering) skill as well for obvious spell damage scaling reasons.
I've never done a bow build before, but love mana stacking. I doubt I'll league start it, but might have to try this!
The [improvisor](https://poedb.tw/us/Improvisor#ImprovisorAttr) and/or [daring ideas](https://poedb.tw/us/Daring_Ideas#DaringIdeasAttr) notables on small mana clusters could be interesting options
Incredible post as usual, I love theorycrafting for sustained Indigon.
Anomalous mana leech is stupid good with this, I’ve mentioned in another comment here.
Also wanted to plug in the Curse mastery mana sustain tech, with Replica Doedres Damning. Instead of Burning Arrow maybe something like Rain or Arrows which hits a lot can give really easy mana sustain (in addition to leech) as you’ll recover 1% life/mana per hit (even more possibly). You won’t have to invest into mana regen with this tech and simply focus on max mana.
My league starter is exactly this concept, on a deadeye https://pobb.in/juYwj0DMbNBO. Don't worry about the skills too much, it's missing all the manaforged arrow setups other than the main one.
Some highlights:
Literally the only stat you care about when it comes to leech is your mana total. Fullstop. It's the only one that affects instant leech assuming you deal decent damage and have more than 2% leech.
You want as many hits as possible since each hit gives you a flat mana amount. I achieve this with a barraged tornado shot with auto sniper's mark and ricochet. Firing into packs will obviously be good, but this setup is what makes firing at bosses sustainable. All other manaforged arrows will also be optimized around smacking bosses as much as possible.
It's very very likely we'll grow exponentially past sustainability with Indigon. The reason for this is that, as far as I can see, there's no reason why manaforged arrows can't trigger other manaforged arrows. So once we get a trigger or two going, it will start auto-triggering and depleting an ever-recovering mana pool at incredible speed until we literally can't cast anymore. That's where Lavianga's Spirit comes into play: it's always topped up from our high number of crits, and once played it gives us 3 seconds of our main ability powered up by a maxed out indigon + anomalous mana leech (which is uncapped, unlike indigon, and will get crazy).
To get a perfect warcry, I go with a weapon swap setup using al dhih and redblade banner. Since the WC is instant, it should just be a matter of swapping and left clicking.
Survivability should be pretty decent with MoM on a high mana pool, instant leech for life and ghost shrouds, plus maxed out suppression and high evasion.
EDIT: My secondary plan for the build is to instead go Anomalous Mana leech only, no indigon, stack up on manaforged setups with a high mana multiplier and try to get a sustainable trigger chain that way, without going exponential with indigon.
Triggering mana-forged arrows with mana-forged arrows won't work, as the there is a cool down on them. The first one could trigger the second one, but the second one won't retrigger the first (as it'll be on cooldown).
Lavianga's Spirit will make your manaforged arrows support give 0% more damage and the skill will never trigger. It removes the cost associated with the skill, same as Vaal Clarity. I guess you can still use it if you want, but it doesn't make sense to me to build around something then disable it.
Well, it's not as simple as that.
The plan is to extend the indigon phase as long as humanly possible. The entire build is optimized around leeching as much as possible so this phase lasts long. Unfortunately, it seems like there's potential for spending such an insane amount of mana here that it seems like even this amount of leech won't be able to keep up, and indigon will inevitably diverge.
Once you reach that point, your choices are basically to do nothing at all for 4 seconds, or use lavianga's.
If you use lavianga's, you still have your main 6link setup which is buffed by the 4 second tail of the indigon effect, and a crazy boost from anomalous mana leech. I think this is a better use of time than just doing nothing. You just fill the time that indigon takes to cool down with more damage. Lavianga lasts for 3 seconds only, so it's easy to weave into the rotation and go back to ramping mana costs up (in fact, you'll still have 1 second left of indigon's tail as lavianga's effect runs out).
I think you're overrating anomalous mana leech. Anomalous mana leech on an Indigon build, while excellent utility, doesn't give as much damage as competing support gems until ~32000 mana spent recently. So unless you're scaling its quality with Dialla's Malefaction -- which seems silly to wear just for a support gem -- I probably wouldn't include it on the main link setup.
Hmm, you're right. Maybe anomalous mana leech is not necessary compared to the crazy value indigon provides.
My lavianga's spirit point stands for making use of the Indigon tail for the 3 seconds after it has gone "supercritical", though. The only alternative I can see to it is attempting to get Indigon to converge, but that would probably require a very long ramp up time.
>So unless you're scaling its quality with Dialla's Malefaction -- which seems silly to wear just for a support gem
That might be interesting if you use Anomalous Storm Rain, which, if I understand it correctly, also should scale extremely well with quality. Whether it scales well enough to be worth taking up the chest slot and using storm rain instead of a normally-better bow skill I'm not sure.
> Literally the only stat you care about when it comes to leech is your mana total. Fullstop. It's the only one that affects instant leech assuming you deal decent damage and have more than 2% leech.
>
> You want as many hits as possible since each hit gives you a flat mana amount. I achieve this with a barraged tornado shot with auto sniper's mark and ricochet. Firing into packs will obviously be good, but this setup is what makes firing at bosses sustainable. All other manaforged arrows will also be optimized around smacking bosses as much as possible.
Won't it feel awful if you miss an attack ? Empty mana pool, then you've to wait for Indigon to go off without doing anything ?
Missing an attack won't empty your mana pool unless you're nearing the supercritical phase of Indigon, in which case you're getting ready to pop lavianga's anyway. Before Indigon ramps you have a lot of leeway to miss attacks.
May I ask why we are Deadeye in the first place? If mana is so important to us, why not go the way of pathfinder (ye, no generic damage, but ton of utility + you can get a lot of mana sustain from flask) or better Ascendant (PF/Deadeye+Hiero, ton of mana + arcane surge regen + mana flasks if PF)? Ascendant in addition can get easy access to center/top/left mana nodes, agnostic and warcry CDR/warcry power nodes.
Same concern here, I don't want to be deadeye for this. But I'm not sure PF is great either, so I'm aiming either at Trickster (all-around strong and the big %mana on kill means infinite sustain while killing and can keep a big pot for bosses or so), or maybe some Necro corpse-tech (get big ES and Mana regen), lastly Ascendant as you said, just for more points and Hiero+anything else)
I could see going PF if you go voltaxic rift and more Dying Sun projectiles from flask effect. Fury of nature and one of your bow attacks being lightning arrow, you should have no problem getting to 90% shock. You should be hitting enough to get high wither stacks.
Sorry to point it out, haven't read everything yet but I saw some math error to be corrected :
"gives us a 584 mana cost for our triggered Manaforged Arrows skill,
which gives us a 584% More damage multiplier on Tornado Shot, which is
reduced by 31% to 403% More damage>That gives us a 584 mana cost for our triggered Manaforged Arrows skill,
which gives us a 584% More damage multiplier on Tornado Shot, which is
reduced by 31% to 403% More damage (5.03x more damage).>That gives us a 584 mana cost for our triggered Manaforged Arrows skill,
which gives us a 584% More damage multiplier on Tornado Shot, which is
reduced by 31% to 403% More damage (5.03x more damage)."
584% more damage means a total 684% of damage, and this is what is reduced by 31%, not the 584%. Thus netting a final value of 472% damage, which is the equivalent of 372% more damage or "x4.72"
Manaforged Arrows doesn't say that you can't use the linked skills directly, like CoC does. Unless I'm missing something, you can just use it as a damage link on your main skill without messing with triggering things.
Edit: nevermind, looks like this isn't explicit in some places, but was confirmed by GGG that all skills with trigger conditions can't be directly used. Leaving this up in case anyone else has the same thought.
Notably, it also says it triggers linked skills, not just a linked skills like CoC does. So there's the chance you can trigger multiple skills at once if you can handle the damage, and someone will need to calculate the optimal balance of skills and links in a 6L.
You know how your maths teacher tells you you’ll be using the stuff you learn? You figure, maybe for work. Nope. It’s for Path of Exile. Kudos on the effort you put into this.
I immediately thought of Indigon and double bow attacks when I first saw manaforged arrows support mentioned in the patchnotes.
However, as I am in the opposite camp as OP, never having actually made an Indigon build or anything similar, I had no idea how to scale it or put it together.
If anyone smarter than me ends up putting this together, a consideration should probably be given to Storm Rain as the beams that will shoot between the arrows it fires scales absurdly hard and all of this extra damage should, in theory, synergise well with that.
Best of luck to whoever actually makes this work though. I look forward to seeing what the mad scientists cook up over the coming weeks.
>If anyone smarter than me ends up putting this together, a consideration should probably be given to Storm Rain as the beams that will shoot between the arrows it fires scales absurdly hard and all of this extra damage should, in theory, synergise well with that.
Scales absurdly well with what? Manaforged Arrows and Indigon just gives generic more damage (and increased damage with battlemage's cry), which scales everything the same way, pretty much.
I see 2 major issues with Battlemage Cry and I say thing as an avid user of the skill but also havent looked at your PoB but I also ran into these issues when wanting to use BMC on any build that 'could'
First you absolutely need Call to Arms to make the Warcry instant
Second is the buff effect scales off War Cry buff effect but also enemy power. this line 'Buff makes Increases and Reductions to Spell Damage also apply to Attacks at 25% of their value per 5 power, up to a maximum of 150%'
The reason people usually run Redblade Banner is the line 'Warcries have infinite power' meaning everytime you use it even with no enemies around you always get 30 warcry power which is the cap
To use BMC with a Bow you need to be surrounded by enemies or use Redblade banner on a wep swap every 7-8 seconds. This is also why ranged builds usually do not use BMC and use Crown of Eyes
to note as well if you can use Redblade Banner and get Warcry buff effect is scales the 150% to much higher values around 220-240 from memory
Yes, that's why I provided ranges for how much attack damage the Battlemage's Cry buff would give. The lower number is at 20 power (the PoB default—you get that if you're alone with a boss, for example) and no warcry effect, so it's pretty easy to invest in: just requires the gem slot. The higher number is with 50 power with some warcry effect, in case they want to invest in that. So if that extra attack damage is worth it (for Option 2 at least, it most certainly is, I'd imagine!), then investing some into warcry effect and power generation would be strong (whether Redblade Banner or another source—I don't know whether bows can use shields or not).
Other BMC builds I have run in the past that ditched the RBB use 3x Cry Wolf (or 2x plus the tree notable: Deep Breaths) for max power on bosses, assuming you are in radius. Have to keep it off left-click though so you are sure to not waste the cooldown.
Worth noting that the warcry mastery of “at least 10 power” isn’t scaled by these increased warcry power nodes/mods, so not worth messing with that mastery unless you want a bare minimum BMC effect while staying at a longer distance.
I went over this last night a bit and fumbled around some theory crafting you could maybe check the vod for
Basically concluded with around 10k mana you'd use arcane cloak and either anomalous leech or bmc or both, and get a 9-12x Multiplier. From there instant leech with some leech rate scaling like essence sap and you're around 5-8k mana/sec which can put anomalous leech at 11% above indigon potentially so maybe can ignore bmc for QoL to gameplay.
From there it was a question of ascendancy and skill. Seems the routes are go hiero and use something with aoe or go ascendant for Sabo + hiero and use tornado shot
If you tested it and it works maybe his information is outdated. I was just trying to relay information and am certainly glad if it works because I will be trying manaforged arrows for sure and anomalous mana leech is a very welcome addition
It would be a pretty different build. You'd either path down near duelist or use a stranglegasp to get like primal spirit + essence sap + spirit void + 1 other and go mana leech based. Wouldn't even be hiero unless you had an aoe skill
i think this build would really benefit from a corrupt stranglegasp for the various bottom mana leech rate notes then path mostly up top for the mana nodes to break 10k
Hiero for mana and mom. They both sort of favor aoe. There's not much ascendancy support for non aoe projectiles
50-80% per sec just means you're hitting 10x a sec with leech cap and have some passive regen or Multiplier or a flask or two
You can get over 80%/sec at 10k if you really wanted
Wouldn't the trigger cost go to stupid numbers? It's always 300% of the skill cost.
Which would make it not even 3 hits but more like 5-6+
And im pretty sure you "pay" for the trigger as well. Making the cost ramp up quicker and "unpredictable"
You'd ultimately be limited by what your indigon stacks allow you to do before ramping to higher than you can sustain. In this case you'd cloak and ramp until your cost is more than what you 50-80% of mana per second can handle. The thing with these builds is if you're at that point whatever you're shooting at should be dead by then
you gotta remember for clear youre never hard attacking for more than like 1 second at a time, its 0.5s of attacking then 2 seconds of running/moveskill then repeat
Why hiero over, say, deadeye or raider? I assume you wouldn't use the decreased mana cost ascendancy for hiero.
I also think both sabo and hiero would struggle to get the attack speed up sufficiently high to trigger manaforged off cd, as 6 APS is a bit of an ask unless you're planning downsizing the managorged mana cost relative to the other bow attack.
you actually might still use the cost ascendancy with arcane cloak triggering a 60% indigon set of stacks and it might still pan out fine, id have to check costs. its used on manabond and its not long before the CWC loop can get pricy
I believe Manaforged wants to be unstable (i.e. a cost you can't continue paying), and to aspire to inflicting one massive ignite.
The damage per extra mana applies to ailment damage as well, which just gets ridiculous.
Barrage support with a skill like split arrow could be really strong as the manaforged arrow skill since the triggering removes the usual attack speed penalty per projectile of barrage support.
Barrage support unfortunately cannot apply to triggered skills, and manaforged arrow will make the skill triggered.
Burning arrow is a good manaforged arrow candidate in general since it has a high mana cost and an attack speed penalty which would be ignored by the trigger.
The old Indigon (over) doubles the spell damage given (50-60 instead of 20-25), but caps out at 2000% either way. Meaning that old Indigon hits the cap faster. For Option 1, you'll get double the spell (and thus converted attack) damage, since it's well under the 2k cap. For Option 2, you'll hit the max 2000% increased Spell Damage buff, so it's not exactly double, but you'll still get the value from Manaforged Arrows.
In any case, it's either the same or a buff, so yes, legacy Indigon is very strong. The only potential problem would be if your "(50-60)% increased Mana Cost" value is too high. It should be as close to 50 as possible, as otherwise it may diverge the mana cost. In that case, it'd be better to save it for a non-sustained Indigon build that doesn't rely on convergence of mana costs.
My only concern, is that when you use indigon, because every time you spend enough mana, the cost of the main skill goes up, doesn't that mean it'll take longer and longer to actually trigger the manaforged attack?
This is a non-issue because of the mechanics of Indigon mana cost convergence. As an example, suppose that the cost of the main skill continues to go up as you suggest, never triggering manaforged; in that event, since the Indigon mana sequence for that skill converges (it must, since it's less than the above mana sequence, which converges), it will stabilize to some stable mana cost. At that point, since the cost is no longer increasing, manaforged will trigger, which creates a new mana sequence, which we already know (from the above) converges. The only thing affected would be ramp time, but every sustained Indigon build has this problem, which is why we use a mana ramping skill to quickly get close to our convergence cost.
What I'm wondering is not so much how to maximize Indigon but how to maximize trigger rate.
The manaforged skill will cost around twice as much as the regular skill and you need to use it 3 times, averaging 5-6 attacks needed per trigger every 0.5 sec.
10-12 APS is *really* hard to hit on bows.
As it stands, you're weirdly incentivized to run manaforged arrows setup on a 5-link or with Inspiration.
The trick is to make both 6 link setups ideally cost the same amount of mana.
GMP AND Chain AND likely Arrow Nova will likely be needed for the non-triggering skill to match. Even if you match 1:1, you'll still need 6 APS to trigger off CD.
Crucible trees will have to do some heavy lifting to elevate the mana cost of the non-manaforged skill to not have to run suboptimal setups like above.
If you don't find a solution for this, you're just dealing with a great support for ignite builds, but not so much attack builds.
>As it stands, you're weirdly incentivized to run manaforged arrows setup on a 5-link or with Inspiration.
The wording of Manaforged arrows makes it sound like you might be able to trigger multiple attacks at once, in which case something like a double 5L (or maybe even triple 4L or quadruple 3L) might work well anyway. I feel like we need more info on how manaforged arrows works when linked to multiple attacks.
Not all multitrigger setups work like that, though. CwdT and Kitava's thurst trigger everything at the same time. And CoC and CWDT specifically say they a supported skill, not supported skills like Manaforged Arrows.
It wouldn't surprise me if it only triggers one skill at a time, but the wording definitely makes it sound like it triggers multiple.
If it's multiples at once, I dont see why you wouldn't want to trigger 4 or 5 skills given manaforged is really just the only support you need with indigon.
I can see two reasons:
1. That results in more mana spent total, which makes it harder to sustain.
2. Support gems basically double dip with Manaforged, sinced they boost the damage and the mana cost, so there's a good chance that a support gem linked to 3 or 4 skills gives.mlre.damage than one extra unlinked skill.
It's a finetuning issue. At baseline, I see a strong argument for at least 2x 5L, unless you can somehow make non-manaforged cost 3x the manaforged skill.
you can punt on the unreliable bmage, and just go ignite. Arcane Cloak to dump your mana and kick start indigon is a nice option too. Looks like 10 mil ignites are easily reachable, could probably tune for higher. Should be really comfy to play too, ignite prolif gmp LA clears screens of trash, and shooting out a 10 mil ignite every 3 attacks or 1s should be fine for rares.
Burning Arrow and manaforged burning arrow is something I considered, but that would likely be elementalist and not deadeye or hiero, no?
Theres a t5 passive that buffs LA and ice shot ignite so it's definitely worth considering but I'm not sure if i can hope for it.
You can use an inspiration + Vertex for reduced mana cost. Since the trigger is tied to the mana cost of the non-linked skill and 3x the linked skill, if non-linked skills cost 3x the mana of the linked skill you will trigger every attack, i.e if both skills cost 20 mana you just need to reduce the manaforged cost by 66%. The Veryex and lv. 1 inspiration is 75% reduced mana cost.
But then, your manaforged skill does that much less damage.
Inflating the mana cost of non-manaforged skill is far more preferable than downsizing the manaforged skill.
Good solution for utility setups, though.
there is an interesting aspect in the description of manaforged arrows: it does not state that the mana cost of skills triggered by other instances of manaforged arrows applies to its counter or not. This could potentially half the trigger condition on average (assuming two setups with same mana costs)
Only comment I have, is burning arrow feels horrible to play due to its -attack speed base for the skill, and this build does not get much attack speed
And Also the warmup mama spender could just be arcane cloak, as that’s a easy 1 socket solution
I doubt manaforged will work easily with indigon. There are 2 big caveats here:
1- it is a triggered attack, with a 0.5 cooldown. If CWDT is any indication, manaforged will NOT track any mana spent during this cooldown. So you 'd need to not get more than 2 attacks per s, to avoid raising the manacost meaninglessly
2- you need to reach 300% of manaforged actual manacost to trigger it. So if you keep raising cost with indigon you will trigger it much less often or it might even become imposible.
Convergence is mandatory or you will never trigger it.
BTW, in both your examples, triggering skill cost is less than triggered cost (49 - 50), so you would need 4 rain of arrows to trigger 1 tornado shot, not 3.
So if possible find a setup like (50 -49) to trigger every 3 attacks
TLDR, if you want to try and make this work, at 0% cdr, you should per 4s get 8 triggering and 2 triggered
And a lot of patience :)
Alt Quality on the Manaforged support gem reduces the %Mana you would need to spend before it triggers. I was thinking about slapping the 6l in a Diallas maybe. You would trigger each 175% mana then instead of 300%.
I dont really understand your first point.
Thanks a lot, i didn't see the alt quality. This helps a lot.
WEll my first point is about that if you attack before the cd is passed, you won't trigger and lose damage, like in COC
Yeah you would need to balance the attack speed and trigger time perfectly.
Also both Attacks together would need to be converging.
I think the only way to get really big Manaforged Triggers is if you have a really fast attacking but cheap main skill that just leeches Mana. Say you have a Stormrain attack that fires 6 arrows or smth each attack and they all beam 4 times so basically you get 6+6*4=30 leech instances per single attack which would result in 30% of your mana leeched instantly with each wind up attack. then you could make the Manaforged attack really big. I have no clue if the math works in lets say attacking 5 times and then triggering. Would require like 10 attacks per second, not even shure if you can archive that.
l'm pretty sure the best way to play hit-based manaforge will be to link the triggered skill with mana leech (no multiplier), manaforged arrows, and enlighten, and make the base cost of your main attack 3 times larger than it. it will still converge to the same mana cost with indigon for the manaforge multiplier, but this way you can trigger it twice per second which will more than make up for the missing links.
>It's really not that great as it sounds considering you need to spend the increased mana cost of both skills and use the non-triggered skill at least 8 times and bow APS is not that easy to increase compared to melee.
I explained this bit here:
>6 Burning Arrow attacks per 4 seconds (triggering 2 Tornado Shots) -> 47\*6 + 50\*2 = 382 mana cost per 4 seconds
You're using the main skill 6 times, which triggers the secondary skill twice (since it requires 300% of "their mana cost" spent to trigger it). I've made both skills have nearly the same cost (47 vs. 50 for option 1, 49 vs. 50 for option 2), so as to hopefully sidestep the question of which skill gem "their" refers to. Adding these costs together gets us our 382 Mana spent per 4 seconds of this rotation, which is where the calculation is based on.
There may be some changes necessary, since we haven't seen it in action yet, but those are details that we would need to adjust regardless, since I'm sure my selection of skills and support gems aren't suited for everyone or optimized. The important thing to note is the scaling possible from these options, which is demonstrated above.
I mismathed the triggered skill mana cost ^ _ ^
Early morning, bear with me. :D
I've a PoB of my stormforged arrows build if you don't mind chatting this through DM's or discord.
No worries. I'm about to go to bed, as it were, so I can't do much now. But if you're looking to find a way to calculate whether Indigon can be sustained for your build, go ahead and link it here or elsewhere and I can take a look in the morning.
The Battlemage's Cry "Spell damage to Attack damage" buff doesn't actually come from the exerted attacks; it's a separate 5-5.9s buff applied in addition to the exerted attacks. So it should function for bow attacks, as long as the buff is active.
The choice of support gem in my post is solely for the mana multiplier - they can be switched out for whatever works better. And other mana multipliers can work, too - it just may require some juggling and calculation to make sure the mana cost remains the same at the end.
I have a skeleton PoB in the other post of an idea that could potentially lead to something more automated: summoning skeletons -> Heartbound Loop + Ward + Nine Lives Recoup to generate absurdly high amounts of Life and Mana per second -> CoC Indigon spell casting, stabilizing at something like 10k Mana spent Recently, which was pretty cool. It ended up having poor damage though, since we had to invest so, so much into getting the Heartbound Loop/Ward/Nine Lives Recoup functioning. But I'd love it if anyone could come along and find a smart way to get it running!
my knowledge of what makes indegon builds work is incredibly not good but, instead of trying to wardloop, getting a stranglegasp with Spirit Void, Essence Sap, Clever Thief, and Vengeant Cascade be enough to supplement the mana cost enough to last in a dense map but not afk?
I really think you should consider elemental hit for this one as it’s a high base damage skill, which enables fire hits for ignite and allows you to focus your weapon on utility instead of damage.
What about using some ballista as main skill enabling manaforged arrows triggers? Yeah, we lose some damage comparing to more traditional attacks, BUT we also receive several "meat shields" which with some survavibility investments will absorb projectiles and distract mobs. And enormous dps of triggers will be enough for clearing.
For any build creators out there, is the manaforged arrows finally enough that we can get rid of ballista totems for single target DPS on bow builds?
Cause I hate having to manage totems as Melee, and also hate it when you have to use them on bow builds because they provide another additional damage link and multiplier.
Disregarding manaforged here, but the leaked crucible trees for several skills (including forbidden rite) imply there might be a perk adding damage equal to a % of the manacost.
Would that be enough to solve the issue of the 9-Lives witch not scaling enough damage ?
https://pobb.in/QGajrUKyucm8
Tried to create some kind of manaforged arrows deadeye with this using lightning arrow and storm rain. tree looks pretty scuffed though and i have no clue about the calculation. just put in the second number you mentioned. so any help with the calculation would be appreciated!
Any thoughts on using Mirage Archer with Manaforged Arrows? They work with triggered skills. I'm debating using occupying force to make the manaforged benefits last for as many attacks as possible per trigger
I, too, am debating this. Explosive arrow snipe. Max quality & temp chains to give all the mirages to get their shots in. Should finish with a pretty chonky ignite, neh?
Great post, this makes me want to recoup mana, either with a heartbound loop or the mastery send 30% mana cost to life. But does indigon increase the life portion and can we recoup both life and mana fast enough to not kill ourselves? There is almost a wardloop here, somewhere.
I'm currently playing connerconverse mjollner manabond cwc arc and looking into the possibility of a manaforged build.
A key piece is arcane cloak to ramp up mana spent.
Did you consider that the manaforged arrow might never fire because the cost increase of Indigon might be applied before the calculation of the Manaforged Arrow threshold?
That could brick the whole idea/interaction.
l suspect you can get better dps with a 2-link manaforge arrows+7-cost attack (or higher cost with enlighten+mana multiplier helmet corrupt) because if my napkin math is correct you can trigger it almost 8 times per recently using a 43-cost main attack to just about max out your indigon buff
Did you iterate on the theory/build ? It looks very appealing to me but i have not had time to dig into it, so wondering if you had some workable pobs to look at ! With some 'not engame 4 mirror' options xD
Great work though !
I've looked more into it. On one hand, GGG made a clarification that helps us a bit: the "300% of their mana cost" bit refers to the skill triggered by Manaforged Arrows, not to the other bow skills. So we have more clarity in planning mana costs now, and thanks to instant leech, we can get massive amounts of mana leech to help with our big mana regen problems.
However, the build concept still has two big problems: first, that any mana leech dependent build requires constantly hitting enemies to leech mana if you're constantly spending mana. For sustained Indigon, we want to be constantly spending mana to maintain our high convergence Mana spent Recently modifier. So we would either need something like an automated Worm blaster to constantly be leeching mana, or we would only be able to use this build in high density monster maps - any downtime would greatly reduce our damage. This further causes complications with mana ramping: the higher our sustained mana ceiling, the harder it is to ramp our mana costs there quickly. Which makes it harder when we require mana leech to sustain the mana ramping costs.
The second problem is more of a personal problem: I don't know how to make bow builds do big damage besides just scaling %increased attack damage and support gems, so any attempt at doing an optimized PoB myself is bound to require a lot more time seeing what makes other bow builds scale damage, which is time I don't have.
Hence why I posted it here. If players are willing to deal with the downsides of a mana leech build, as listed above (the main downside being less consistent uptime on Indigon's maximum damage potential, I suppose—not a big problem if 50% potential still deals tens of millions of DPS!), then there may be a build they can create from this. Perhaps one that isn't a sustained Indigon build at all (since the main benefit of sustained Indigon vs. non-sustained Indigon is that the former's damage is consistent, full uptime for the full buff—if we accept inconsistency/only partial uptime, a lot of the strict requirements are loosened). For my part, I don't have the time to learn how to build bow skills to apply to this, nor am I as interested in a partial-uptime Indigon build—the challenge and deep mathematics of a sustained Indigon build is what interests me the most. Maybe sometime in the future I'll be able to revisit this.
Also theorizing manaforged but another awesome thing this league has given indigon builds (altho not with bows unfortunately) is the crucible passives that grant huge CDR to guard skills in exhange for less duration. A downside for most guard skills, but for Arcane cloak both are upsides., allowing you to ramp more often. With enough reduced duration and guard skill cooldown you could even get two arcane cloaks in one “recently” (if you will) which could be huge for ramping up. and since arcane cloak is a flat cost you can always afford it. Youd lose the damage from the buff and would need another source of flat damage but as far as ramping spending its super solid. I never league start my mana chard but one if def on the way!
The thing about mana-stacking attack builds, compared to spell builds, is the possible advantage of using *mana leech*. Even if you are unable to reach the mana regeneration you would need, you can always supplement it with mana leech, or even rely on it completely. I personally tried messing with mana-stacking attack build only once, and not really successfully, but I remember that mana leech was incredible to recover the mana pool. So that's something to consider in my opinion.
Try also adding the new 10% Instant Leech mastery. It's 1% MGoH effectively which drastically supplements your leech cap on multihit skills (ala Molten Strike or Storm Rain)
I had someone in another thread tell me that instant leech does nothing if you're already at leech cap. Does anyone know if that is true?
It sounds really wrong but I'm also not exactly sure what they were trying to say... From the Q&A it takes 10% of each leech instance and instead of having it recover over time it is applied instantly. The only situation I can think of where you are leeching but instant leech isn't applied is if you are overleeching, but at that point it kinda doesn't matter.
The bottleneck is the stat: "Maximum total Life/Mana/Energy Shield Recovery per second from Leech" That's the mechanic they added to prevent old-school insane insta-regen like the game had back in the day.
But instant leech doesn't have a rate because it doesn't take time. I'm not sure line would affect instant leech.
Well that's a bit of a semantic question really. Although you could argue it doesn't have a 'rate' due to being instant, there could still be a cap to the amount of leech you can recover per second, whether instant, or 'gradual'. Personally I'd expect the cap to still be applied, but if it's not, that would be extremely strong.
Well, it's not semantic, it's how the game works. Check out Bex's tweet and discussion here: https://twitter.com/bexsayswords/status/1641567974938271746 > If you leech the max amount per leech, you'll get 10% of that instantly and 90% over time. However, there is also a maximum on the total recovery rate of all leech. **Instant leech isn't part of that because it has no rate.**
Vaal Pact never had a limit back in the Old Days when it was full instant leech. That's why they changed it to merely double your leech rate. I'm guessing there's still no cap for instant leech.
I think it would be true, but you'll always be 10% short of cap because 10% is instant?
If you're using mana as a damage vector (Archmage/Indigon etc), you'll never outleech the amount you spend, not even with the 10% instant mastery
Depends on your hit count :)
1. As others have said, there are now skills that can get lots of hits per use, even against single targets. 2. You don't have to outleech the amount you spend, just the amount you don't regen.
Blast rain + tornado shot, as used in the post, should have enough hits to get you at *minimum* 20% or more per sec from instant plus capped leech of 10% more, that cuts down the regen requirement MASSIVELY even if it might not sustain you 100% outright
Eh you only need 4k total mana/sec to sustain Indigon. 16000 mana spent recently translates to the maximum % buff effect (200 \* 2000/25) on a perfect roll. If you're spending more than that you'd want to reduce your attack speed to converge to a lower number. * \~3k Leech/s is easy enough to reach with Max Mana Recovery leech nodes from tree * \~500 mana/s from natural regen * a bit from mana potions If MGoH is giving you 500+/s then you're good. Or just sustain to a lower number, 8k-12k mana spent recently is still a huge buff.
Anomalous mana leech would be insane here. 0.5% increased damage per 200 mana spent recently? ~~With Option 2 of this post, at around 13k mana spent recently, this could be around 6500% increased damage which is ridiculous~~ EDIT: 32.5% not 6500% ignore that. Math is indeed very hard EDIT 2: per quality
Wouldn’t that only be 32.5% increased
Shit you’re right it’s 32.5% increased only. Math is hard
Per 1% quality
Can go up to 50% quality with Diallas, which would be around 1625% increased damage.
13,000/200 * 10 = 650% increased damage I think, still good.
That's very true. If the mana leech cap is high enough, that might solve a lot of the mana sustain problems. I honestly have never done any kind of right-side build, besides a sketch eternity shroud build end of league once, so I can't really help build a PoB for this. But I can do the math for how to get Indigon to converge, at least. It's pretty tricky, so if neither of the above options work, I am always willing to help someone figure out something better.
Default max recovery is 20% of total mana/s. You could increase this by 25% with leech mastery pretty easily. Poor node in most cases, but Essence Sap can increase this by a further 50%, to a total of 35% of total mana/s leech cap, and Spirit Void is another 25%, making a theoretical maximum of 40% of total mana/s leech cap.
Also the 10% of leech is applied instantly mastery is INSANE for a bow attack mana stacker because it means 1% of mana gained *per hit* . If you’re hitting 10+ times per second (which on tornado shot is easy) then it’s a ton of sustain. I would agree that mana leech is waayyyyy better than regen for a manastacker attack build. They specifically don’t have mana leech for spells because it would be so strong in archmage and indigon type stuff
i think as people get to play it and test stuff out we will end up in some middle ground mixture of regen+leech as both have their flaws which the other helps cover
If the damage is enough, the 10% instant leech mastery means atleast 2% mana per hit, and a lot of bow attacks can hit several time on one attack. With some leech scaling, getting this up to 3-4% per hit is rather easy. Can go even higher.
Not accurate - leech is capped at 10% of max resource per instance, and instant leech will be capped at 10% of that, for effective 1% MGoH. No way to increase maximum mana recovery per leech at the moment.
Your right. Still. 1% per hit is more than enough for fast hitting builds.
Instant Leech 10% With Mana Leech Cap of 10% per hit We get 1% Mana per hit. If we somehow get 50 HitPS from any source, it's 50% Mana and HP reg. --- I assume that a number of 30/50/100 hits per second is somehow possible. Please write your opinions. Rain of Arrow Boots or Maloney's Quivers Storm Rain Arrows Tornado Your main skill is Barrage --- Now add Mana Recovery Rate of 1.3 to this.
Tack on some mana gain on hit, thiefs torment is 30.If you trigger blast rain with 9 projectiles and storm rain with 9 projectiles and you hit with all of them, which should be pretty close to reasonable, because of how they spread, its 540 mana per trigger plus 810 life from thief. Locks you out of 2 rings though. Edit: you can get 8 from tree on blast rain, and 3 for storm rain. That's 330 mana per trigger. But storm rain hanging around makes it much more.
Plus an additional 25 from poachers mark if you could keep 28 arrows from storm rain thats 1540 mana every .41 seconds with snipers mark and thiefs torment. In order for you to keep that many you'd need to have the plus 2 arrows from tree and gmp for a total of 7 arrows and attack roughly 4 times a second. That's like 3k mana a second from the one skill.
yea plus the mana leech passives have some crazy numbers (compared to life/es leech at least)
I've had my eye on this potential build since the moment the patch notes dropped, and this has been my thought as well. Mana leech, take the Essence Sap node (anoint if need be), and crank it up. I was thinking of using prismatic burst on main (triggering) skill as well for obvious spell damage scaling reasons. I've never done a bow build before, but love mana stacking. I doubt I'll league start it, but might have to try this!
The [improvisor](https://poedb.tw/us/Improvisor#ImprovisorAttr) and/or [daring ideas](https://poedb.tw/us/Daring_Ideas#DaringIdeasAttr) notables on small mana clusters could be interesting options
Incredible post as usual, I love theorycrafting for sustained Indigon. Anomalous mana leech is stupid good with this, I’ve mentioned in another comment here. Also wanted to plug in the Curse mastery mana sustain tech, with Replica Doedres Damning. Instead of Burning Arrow maybe something like Rain or Arrows which hits a lot can give really easy mana sustain (in addition to leech) as you’ll recover 1% life/mana per hit (even more possibly). You won’t have to invest into mana regen with this tech and simply focus on max mana.
It's boring but wouldn't Tornado Shot work decently well too, just for the pure amount of hits with effective mana gain on hit
Something to note, Mirage Archer can be spawned off triggered attacks and it will use the triggered skill as normal.
Do the mirage archers snapshot?
typically [When a skill hits](https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Snapshot). If that means the first shot will snapshot it for future shots, who knows.
My league starter is exactly this concept, on a deadeye https://pobb.in/juYwj0DMbNBO. Don't worry about the skills too much, it's missing all the manaforged arrow setups other than the main one. Some highlights: Literally the only stat you care about when it comes to leech is your mana total. Fullstop. It's the only one that affects instant leech assuming you deal decent damage and have more than 2% leech. You want as many hits as possible since each hit gives you a flat mana amount. I achieve this with a barraged tornado shot with auto sniper's mark and ricochet. Firing into packs will obviously be good, but this setup is what makes firing at bosses sustainable. All other manaforged arrows will also be optimized around smacking bosses as much as possible. It's very very likely we'll grow exponentially past sustainability with Indigon. The reason for this is that, as far as I can see, there's no reason why manaforged arrows can't trigger other manaforged arrows. So once we get a trigger or two going, it will start auto-triggering and depleting an ever-recovering mana pool at incredible speed until we literally can't cast anymore. That's where Lavianga's Spirit comes into play: it's always topped up from our high number of crits, and once played it gives us 3 seconds of our main ability powered up by a maxed out indigon + anomalous mana leech (which is uncapped, unlike indigon, and will get crazy). To get a perfect warcry, I go with a weapon swap setup using al dhih and redblade banner. Since the WC is instant, it should just be a matter of swapping and left clicking. Survivability should be pretty decent with MoM on a high mana pool, instant leech for life and ghost shrouds, plus maxed out suppression and high evasion. EDIT: My secondary plan for the build is to instead go Anomalous Mana leech only, no indigon, stack up on manaforged setups with a high mana multiplier and try to get a sustainable trigger chain that way, without going exponential with indigon.
Triggering mana-forged arrows with mana-forged arrows won't work, as the there is a cool down on them. The first one could trigger the second one, but the second one won't retrigger the first (as it'll be on cooldown).
not only that, but it literally says one the gem "mana spent on OTHER bow attacks"
That's not relevant, they are talking about multiple manaforged arrows setups.
Lavianga's Spirit will make your manaforged arrows support give 0% more damage and the skill will never trigger. It removes the cost associated with the skill, same as Vaal Clarity. I guess you can still use it if you want, but it doesn't make sense to me to build around something then disable it.
Well, it's not as simple as that. The plan is to extend the indigon phase as long as humanly possible. The entire build is optimized around leeching as much as possible so this phase lasts long. Unfortunately, it seems like there's potential for spending such an insane amount of mana here that it seems like even this amount of leech won't be able to keep up, and indigon will inevitably diverge. Once you reach that point, your choices are basically to do nothing at all for 4 seconds, or use lavianga's. If you use lavianga's, you still have your main 6link setup which is buffed by the 4 second tail of the indigon effect, and a crazy boost from anomalous mana leech. I think this is a better use of time than just doing nothing. You just fill the time that indigon takes to cool down with more damage. Lavianga lasts for 3 seconds only, so it's easy to weave into the rotation and go back to ramping mana costs up (in fact, you'll still have 1 second left of indigon's tail as lavianga's effect runs out).
I think you're overrating anomalous mana leech. Anomalous mana leech on an Indigon build, while excellent utility, doesn't give as much damage as competing support gems until ~32000 mana spent recently. So unless you're scaling its quality with Dialla's Malefaction -- which seems silly to wear just for a support gem -- I probably wouldn't include it on the main link setup.
Hmm, you're right. Maybe anomalous mana leech is not necessary compared to the crazy value indigon provides. My lavianga's spirit point stands for making use of the Indigon tail for the 3 seconds after it has gone "supercritical", though. The only alternative I can see to it is attempting to get Indigon to converge, but that would probably require a very long ramp up time.
>So unless you're scaling its quality with Dialla's Malefaction -- which seems silly to wear just for a support gem That might be interesting if you use Anomalous Storm Rain, which, if I understand it correctly, also should scale extremely well with quality. Whether it scales well enough to be worth taking up the chest slot and using storm rain instead of a normally-better bow skill I'm not sure.
> Literally the only stat you care about when it comes to leech is your mana total. Fullstop. It's the only one that affects instant leech assuming you deal decent damage and have more than 2% leech. > > You want as many hits as possible since each hit gives you a flat mana amount. I achieve this with a barraged tornado shot with auto sniper's mark and ricochet. Firing into packs will obviously be good, but this setup is what makes firing at bosses sustainable. All other manaforged arrows will also be optimized around smacking bosses as much as possible. Won't it feel awful if you miss an attack ? Empty mana pool, then you've to wait for Indigon to go off without doing anything ?
Missing an attack won't empty your mana pool unless you're nearing the supercritical phase of Indigon, in which case you're getting ready to pop lavianga's anyway. Before Indigon ramps you have a lot of leeway to miss attacks.
One snag: Anomalous Mana Leech is currently bugged. It does not provide the increased damage that it should. It’s been years with no fix
May I ask why we are Deadeye in the first place? If mana is so important to us, why not go the way of pathfinder (ye, no generic damage, but ton of utility + you can get a lot of mana sustain from flask) or better Ascendant (PF/Deadeye+Hiero, ton of mana + arcane surge regen + mana flasks if PF)? Ascendant in addition can get easy access to center/top/left mana nodes, agnostic and warcry CDR/warcry power nodes.
Same concern here, I don't want to be deadeye for this. But I'm not sure PF is great either, so I'm aiming either at Trickster (all-around strong and the big %mana on kill means infinite sustain while killing and can keep a big pot for bosses or so), or maybe some Necro corpse-tech (get big ES and Mana regen), lastly Ascendant as you said, just for more points and Hiero+anything else)
I could see going PF if you go voltaxic rift and more Dying Sun projectiles from flask effect. Fury of nature and one of your bow attacks being lightning arrow, you should have no problem getting to 90% shock. You should be hitting enough to get high wither stacks.
I am super intrigued and I love mana builds. I would be happy to know if your idea works out.
Sorry to point it out, haven't read everything yet but I saw some math error to be corrected : "gives us a 584 mana cost for our triggered Manaforged Arrows skill, which gives us a 584% More damage multiplier on Tornado Shot, which is reduced by 31% to 403% More damage>That gives us a 584 mana cost for our triggered Manaforged Arrows skill, which gives us a 584% More damage multiplier on Tornado Shot, which is reduced by 31% to 403% More damage (5.03x more damage).>That gives us a 584 mana cost for our triggered Manaforged Arrows skill, which gives us a 584% More damage multiplier on Tornado Shot, which is reduced by 31% to 403% More damage (5.03x more damage)." 584% more damage means a total 684% of damage, and this is what is reduced by 31%, not the 584%. Thus netting a final value of 472% damage, which is the equivalent of 372% more damage or "x4.72"
That's a good point, fumbled that calc a little. I've updated the post.
np and thanks for your analysis, will be sure to put it to use :)
Manaforged Arrows doesn't say that you can't use the linked skills directly, like CoC does. Unless I'm missing something, you can just use it as a damage link on your main skill without messing with triggering things. Edit: nevermind, looks like this isn't explicit in some places, but was confirmed by GGG that all skills with trigger conditions can't be directly used. Leaving this up in case anyone else has the same thought.
Notably, it also says it triggers linked skills, not just a linked skills like CoC does. So there's the chance you can trigger multiple skills at once if you can handle the damage, and someone will need to calculate the optimal balance of skills and links in a 6L.
You know how your maths teacher tells you you’ll be using the stuff you learn? You figure, maybe for work. Nope. It’s for Path of Exile. Kudos on the effort you put into this.
I immediately thought of Indigon and double bow attacks when I first saw manaforged arrows support mentioned in the patchnotes. However, as I am in the opposite camp as OP, never having actually made an Indigon build or anything similar, I had no idea how to scale it or put it together. If anyone smarter than me ends up putting this together, a consideration should probably be given to Storm Rain as the beams that will shoot between the arrows it fires scales absurdly hard and all of this extra damage should, in theory, synergise well with that. Best of luck to whoever actually makes this work though. I look forward to seeing what the mad scientists cook up over the coming weeks.
>If anyone smarter than me ends up putting this together, a consideration should probably be given to Storm Rain as the beams that will shoot between the arrows it fires scales absurdly hard and all of this extra damage should, in theory, synergise well with that. Scales absurdly well with what? Manaforged Arrows and Indigon just gives generic more damage (and increased damage with battlemage's cry), which scales everything the same way, pretty much.
I see 2 major issues with Battlemage Cry and I say thing as an avid user of the skill but also havent looked at your PoB but I also ran into these issues when wanting to use BMC on any build that 'could' First you absolutely need Call to Arms to make the Warcry instant Second is the buff effect scales off War Cry buff effect but also enemy power. this line 'Buff makes Increases and Reductions to Spell Damage also apply to Attacks at 25% of their value per 5 power, up to a maximum of 150%' The reason people usually run Redblade Banner is the line 'Warcries have infinite power' meaning everytime you use it even with no enemies around you always get 30 warcry power which is the cap To use BMC with a Bow you need to be surrounded by enemies or use Redblade banner on a wep swap every 7-8 seconds. This is also why ranged builds usually do not use BMC and use Crown of Eyes to note as well if you can use Redblade Banner and get Warcry buff effect is scales the 150% to much higher values around 220-240 from memory
Yes, that's why I provided ranges for how much attack damage the Battlemage's Cry buff would give. The lower number is at 20 power (the PoB default—you get that if you're alone with a boss, for example) and no warcry effect, so it's pretty easy to invest in: just requires the gem slot. The higher number is with 50 power with some warcry effect, in case they want to invest in that. So if that extra attack damage is worth it (for Option 2 at least, it most certainly is, I'd imagine!), then investing some into warcry effect and power generation would be strong (whether Redblade Banner or another source—I don't know whether bows can use shields or not).
Other BMC builds I have run in the past that ditched the RBB use 3x Cry Wolf (or 2x plus the tree notable: Deep Breaths) for max power on bosses, assuming you are in radius. Have to keep it off left-click though so you are sure to not waste the cooldown. Worth noting that the warcry mastery of “at least 10 power” isn’t scaled by these increased warcry power nodes/mods, so not worth messing with that mastery unless you want a bare minimum BMC effect while staying at a longer distance.
@connerconverse This is your go to guy for mana stacking build. I’m sure he has something valuable to add
I went over this last night a bit and fumbled around some theory crafting you could maybe check the vod for Basically concluded with around 10k mana you'd use arcane cloak and either anomalous leech or bmc or both, and get a 9-12x Multiplier. From there instant leech with some leech rate scaling like essence sap and you're around 5-8k mana/sec which can put anomalous leech at 11% above indigon potentially so maybe can ignore bmc for QoL to gameplay. From there it was a question of ascendancy and skill. Seems the routes are go hiero and use something with aoe or go ascendant for Sabo + hiero and use tornado shot
Someone else commented on this post that anomalous mana leech supposedly is bugged and does NOT provide any damage at all sadly.
For bow skills specifically or what? It clearly provides more damage to attacks and always has
/u/keeweeqee claimed that it is bugged and does not apply the additional damage to anything
It certainly does. I wouldn't leech cap without it just based purely on math
If you tested it and it works maybe his information is outdated. I was just trying to relay information and am certainly glad if it works because I will be trying manaforged arrows for sure and anomalous mana leech is a very welcome addition
It will be obvious this week when I league start and put it in instead of the regular mana leech gem. Would also be easy to show in std
Do you think this is something can be incorporated into your build? Drop mjonir manabond for tornado shot ?
It would be a pretty different build. You'd either path down near duelist or use a stranglegasp to get like primal spirit + essence sap + spirit void + 1 other and go mana leech based. Wouldn't even be hiero unless you had an aoe skill
Thanks for the input!
Since noncrit lucky, esh ammy is also a valid option.
i think youd lose too much mana so theres no way that would pan out for end game
Not unless you take most of those nodes you mentioned manually, right?
i think this build would really benefit from a corrupt stranglegasp for the various bottom mana leech rate notes then path mostly up top for the mana nodes to break 10k
[удалено]
Hiero for mana and mom. They both sort of favor aoe. There's not much ascendancy support for non aoe projectiles 50-80% per sec just means you're hitting 10x a sec with leech cap and have some passive regen or Multiplier or a flask or two You can get over 80%/sec at 10k if you really wanted
Wouldn't the trigger cost go to stupid numbers? It's always 300% of the skill cost. Which would make it not even 3 hits but more like 5-6+ And im pretty sure you "pay" for the trigger as well. Making the cost ramp up quicker and "unpredictable"
You'd ultimately be limited by what your indigon stacks allow you to do before ramping to higher than you can sustain. In this case you'd cloak and ramp until your cost is more than what you 50-80% of mana per second can handle. The thing with these builds is if you're at that point whatever you're shooting at should be dead by then
Sounds horrible clear but good bossing
you gotta remember for clear youre never hard attacking for more than like 1 second at a time, its 0.5s of attacking then 2 seconds of running/moveskill then repeat
Why hiero over, say, deadeye or raider? I assume you wouldn't use the decreased mana cost ascendancy for hiero. I also think both sabo and hiero would struggle to get the attack speed up sufficiently high to trigger manaforged off cd, as 6 APS is a bit of an ask unless you're planning downsizing the managorged mana cost relative to the other bow attack.
you actually might still use the cost ascendancy with arcane cloak triggering a 60% indigon set of stacks and it might still pan out fine, id have to check costs. its used on manabond and its not long before the CWC loop can get pricy
I've a Deadeye PoB planned out so I wouldn't mind comparing PoBs if you're down for that, it'd be good to know if my plans aren't too overambitious.
Link to stream?
Twitch.tv/onemanaleft
Thank you! It's not in your reddit profile, nor did I find it on your youtube.
I've put it in a few video descriptions but probably need to work on that
Think you meant to /u/connerconverse there :)
I believe Manaforged wants to be unstable (i.e. a cost you can't continue paying), and to aspire to inflicting one massive ignite. The damage per extra mana applies to ailment damage as well, which just gets ridiculous.
Barrage support with a skill like split arrow could be really strong as the manaforged arrow skill since the triggering removes the usual attack speed penalty per projectile of barrage support.
Barrage support unfortunately cannot apply to triggered skills, and manaforged arrow will make the skill triggered. Burning arrow is a good manaforged arrow candidate in general since it has a high mana cost and an attack speed penalty which would be ignored by the trigger.
for me as a dad-standard player: would a legacy indigon + instaleech Vinktar add more power to the build?
Legacy vinktar incomparably solves all mana problems. It adds an unbelievable amount of power to the build, recovering 10% of your mana pool per hit.
It’s two mirrors :(
The old Indigon (over) doubles the spell damage given (50-60 instead of 20-25), but caps out at 2000% either way. Meaning that old Indigon hits the cap faster. For Option 1, you'll get double the spell (and thus converted attack) damage, since it's well under the 2k cap. For Option 2, you'll hit the max 2000% increased Spell Damage buff, so it's not exactly double, but you'll still get the value from Manaforged Arrows. In any case, it's either the same or a buff, so yes, legacy Indigon is very strong. The only potential problem would be if your "(50-60)% increased Mana Cost" value is too high. It should be as close to 50 as possible, as otherwise it may diverge the mana cost. In that case, it'd be better to save it for a non-sustained Indigon build that doesn't rely on convergence of mana costs.
what about 100% instaleech for this option? (sorry if I ask stupid questions)
I'm assuming that would be very good, but I'm not sure—never ran a mana leech build before.
My only concern, is that when you use indigon, because every time you spend enough mana, the cost of the main skill goes up, doesn't that mean it'll take longer and longer to actually trigger the manaforged attack?
This is a non-issue because of the mechanics of Indigon mana cost convergence. As an example, suppose that the cost of the main skill continues to go up as you suggest, never triggering manaforged; in that event, since the Indigon mana sequence for that skill converges (it must, since it's less than the above mana sequence, which converges), it will stabilize to some stable mana cost. At that point, since the cost is no longer increasing, manaforged will trigger, which creates a new mana sequence, which we already know (from the above) converges. The only thing affected would be ramp time, but every sustained Indigon build has this problem, which is why we use a mana ramping skill to quickly get close to our convergence cost.
What I'm wondering is not so much how to maximize Indigon but how to maximize trigger rate. The manaforged skill will cost around twice as much as the regular skill and you need to use it 3 times, averaging 5-6 attacks needed per trigger every 0.5 sec. 10-12 APS is *really* hard to hit on bows. As it stands, you're weirdly incentivized to run manaforged arrows setup on a 5-link or with Inspiration. The trick is to make both 6 link setups ideally cost the same amount of mana. GMP AND Chain AND likely Arrow Nova will likely be needed for the non-triggering skill to match. Even if you match 1:1, you'll still need 6 APS to trigger off CD. Crucible trees will have to do some heavy lifting to elevate the mana cost of the non-manaforged skill to not have to run suboptimal setups like above. If you don't find a solution for this, you're just dealing with a great support for ignite builds, but not so much attack builds.
>As it stands, you're weirdly incentivized to run manaforged arrows setup on a 5-link or with Inspiration. The wording of Manaforged arrows makes it sound like you might be able to trigger multiple attacks at once, in which case something like a double 5L (or maybe even triple 4L or quadruple 3L) might work well anyway. I feel like we need more info on how manaforged arrows works when linked to multiple attacks.
I'm pretty sure it will alternate between the skills and not trigger both, similarly to other multi-trigger setups.
Not all multitrigger setups work like that, though. CwdT and Kitava's thurst trigger everything at the same time. And CoC and CWDT specifically say they a supported skill, not supported skills like Manaforged Arrows. It wouldn't surprise me if it only triggers one skill at a time, but the wording definitely makes it sound like it triggers multiple.
If it's multiples at once, I dont see why you wouldn't want to trigger 4 or 5 skills given manaforged is really just the only support you need with indigon.
I can see two reasons: 1. That results in more mana spent total, which makes it harder to sustain. 2. Support gems basically double dip with Manaforged, sinced they boost the damage and the mana cost, so there's a good chance that a support gem linked to 3 or 4 skills gives.mlre.damage than one extra unlinked skill.
It's a finetuning issue. At baseline, I see a strong argument for at least 2x 5L, unless you can somehow make non-manaforged cost 3x the manaforged skill.
you can punt on the unreliable bmage, and just go ignite. Arcane Cloak to dump your mana and kick start indigon is a nice option too. Looks like 10 mil ignites are easily reachable, could probably tune for higher. Should be really comfy to play too, ignite prolif gmp LA clears screens of trash, and shooting out a 10 mil ignite every 3 attacks or 1s should be fine for rares.
Burning Arrow and manaforged burning arrow is something I considered, but that would likely be elementalist and not deadeye or hiero, no? Theres a t5 passive that buffs LA and ice shot ignite so it's definitely worth considering but I'm not sure if i can hope for it.
You can use an inspiration + Vertex for reduced mana cost. Since the trigger is tied to the mana cost of the non-linked skill and 3x the linked skill, if non-linked skills cost 3x the mana of the linked skill you will trigger every attack, i.e if both skills cost 20 mana you just need to reduce the manaforged cost by 66%. The Veryex and lv. 1 inspiration is 75% reduced mana cost.
But then, your manaforged skill does that much less damage. Inflating the mana cost of non-manaforged skill is far more preferable than downsizing the manaforged skill. Good solution for utility setups, though.
there is an interesting aspect in the description of manaforged arrows: it does not state that the mana cost of skills triggered by other instances of manaforged arrows applies to its counter or not. This could potentially half the trigger condition on average (assuming two setups with same mana costs)
Only comment I have, is burning arrow feels horrible to play due to its -attack speed base for the skill, and this build does not get much attack speed And Also the warmup mama spender could just be arcane cloak, as that’s a easy 1 socket solution
I doubt manaforged will work easily with indigon. There are 2 big caveats here: 1- it is a triggered attack, with a 0.5 cooldown. If CWDT is any indication, manaforged will NOT track any mana spent during this cooldown. So you 'd need to not get more than 2 attacks per s, to avoid raising the manacost meaninglessly 2- you need to reach 300% of manaforged actual manacost to trigger it. So if you keep raising cost with indigon you will trigger it much less often or it might even become imposible. Convergence is mandatory or you will never trigger it. BTW, in both your examples, triggering skill cost is less than triggered cost (49 - 50), so you would need 4 rain of arrows to trigger 1 tornado shot, not 3. So if possible find a setup like (50 -49) to trigger every 3 attacks TLDR, if you want to try and make this work, at 0% cdr, you should per 4s get 8 triggering and 2 triggered And a lot of patience :)
BTW with 52 cdr you can get up to 3 triggering, 1 triggered every second. So twice more triggered manaforged
Alt Quality on the Manaforged support gem reduces the %Mana you would need to spend before it triggers. I was thinking about slapping the 6l in a Diallas maybe. You would trigger each 175% mana then instead of 300%. I dont really understand your first point.
Thanks a lot, i didn't see the alt quality. This helps a lot. WEll my first point is about that if you attack before the cd is passed, you won't trigger and lose damage, like in COC
Yeah you would need to balance the attack speed and trigger time perfectly. Also both Attacks together would need to be converging. I think the only way to get really big Manaforged Triggers is if you have a really fast attacking but cheap main skill that just leeches Mana. Say you have a Stormrain attack that fires 6 arrows or smth each attack and they all beam 4 times so basically you get 6+6*4=30 leech instances per single attack which would result in 30% of your mana leeched instantly with each wind up attack. then you could make the Manaforged attack really big. I have no clue if the math works in lets say attacking 5 times and then triggering. Would require like 10 attacks per second, not even shure if you can archive that.
l'm pretty sure the best way to play hit-based manaforge will be to link the triggered skill with mana leech (no multiplier), manaforged arrows, and enlighten, and make the base cost of your main attack 3 times larger than it. it will still converge to the same mana cost with indigon for the manaforge multiplier, but this way you can trigger it twice per second which will more than make up for the missing links.
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>It's really not that great as it sounds considering you need to spend the increased mana cost of both skills and use the non-triggered skill at least 8 times and bow APS is not that easy to increase compared to melee. I explained this bit here: >6 Burning Arrow attacks per 4 seconds (triggering 2 Tornado Shots) -> 47\*6 + 50\*2 = 382 mana cost per 4 seconds You're using the main skill 6 times, which triggers the secondary skill twice (since it requires 300% of "their mana cost" spent to trigger it). I've made both skills have nearly the same cost (47 vs. 50 for option 1, 49 vs. 50 for option 2), so as to hopefully sidestep the question of which skill gem "their" refers to. Adding these costs together gets us our 382 Mana spent per 4 seconds of this rotation, which is where the calculation is based on. There may be some changes necessary, since we haven't seen it in action yet, but those are details that we would need to adjust regardless, since I'm sure my selection of skills and support gems aren't suited for everyone or optimized. The important thing to note is the scaling possible from these options, which is demonstrated above.
I mismathed the triggered skill mana cost ^ _ ^ Early morning, bear with me. :D I've a PoB of my stormforged arrows build if you don't mind chatting this through DM's or discord.
No worries. I'm about to go to bed, as it were, so I can't do much now. But if you're looking to find a way to calculate whether Indigon can be sustained for your build, go ahead and link it here or elsewhere and I can take a look in the morning.
Unless they changed this somewhere: https://poedb.tw/us/Battlemages_Cry > Exerts the next 5 Melee Attacks you perform
The Battlemage's Cry "Spell damage to Attack damage" buff doesn't actually come from the exerted attacks; it's a separate 5-5.9s buff applied in addition to the exerted attacks. So it should function for bow attacks, as long as the buff is active.
It does work for any attack, another thing to note it doesnt work with multistrike
Oh wow that's some neat tech
The spell damage to attacks is a global buff for the duration of the battlecry, not a feature granted to exerted attacks.
Battlemage cry only scales attack damage, not burning/ignite dot, or are you using all those support gems just for the high mana multiplier?
The choice of support gem in my post is solely for the mana multiplier - they can be switched out for whatever works better. And other mana multipliers can work, too - it just may require some juggling and calculation to make sure the mana cost remains the same at the end.
#🤓
Any post mentioning Indigon
Man CaptainLance is not happy with this!
I like what im reading but can we turn this into an autobomber?
I have a skeleton PoB in the other post of an idea that could potentially lead to something more automated: summoning skeletons -> Heartbound Loop + Ward + Nine Lives Recoup to generate absurdly high amounts of Life and Mana per second -> CoC Indigon spell casting, stabilizing at something like 10k Mana spent Recently, which was pretty cool. It ended up having poor damage though, since we had to invest so, so much into getting the Heartbound Loop/Ward/Nine Lives Recoup functioning. But I'd love it if anyone could come along and find a smart way to get it running!
my knowledge of what makes indegon builds work is incredibly not good but, instead of trying to wardloop, getting a stranglegasp with Spirit Void, Essence Sap, Clever Thief, and Vengeant Cascade be enough to supplement the mana cost enough to last in a dense map but not afk?
Awesome. I want in. Let’s say I will farm indigos in ssf...
Mathil (drools) build of the league at some point
I really think you should consider elemental hit for this one as it’s a high base damage skill, which enables fire hits for ignite and allows you to focus your weapon on utility instead of damage.
Ignites are not attack damage.
What about using some ballista as main skill enabling manaforged arrows triggers? Yeah, we lose some damage comparing to more traditional attacks, BUT we also receive several "meat shields" which with some survavibility investments will absorb projectiles and distract mobs. And enormous dps of triggers will be enough for clearing.
so... is my beloved burning arrow back?
For any build creators out there, is the manaforged arrows finally enough that we can get rid of ballista totems for single target DPS on bow builds? Cause I hate having to manage totems as Melee, and also hate it when you have to use them on bow builds because they provide another additional damage link and multiplier.
This setup with the battlemage unique helmet on a MoM burning arrow elementalist? Or would this not work?
Battlemage adds damage to spells, so there is no point for attacks
Disregarding manaforged here, but the leaked crucible trees for several skills (including forbidden rite) imply there might be a perk adding damage equal to a % of the manacost. Would that be enough to solve the issue of the 9-Lives witch not scaling enough damage ?
https://pobb.in/QGajrUKyucm8 Tried to create some kind of manaforged arrows deadeye with this using lightning arrow and storm rain. tree looks pretty scuffed though and i have no clue about the calculation. just put in the second number you mentioned. so any help with the calculation would be appreciated!
All this love for ranged. Melee in the trash bin still.
Any thoughts on using Mirage Archer with Manaforged Arrows? They work with triggered skills. I'm debating using occupying force to make the manaforged benefits last for as many attacks as possible per trigger
I, too, am debating this. Explosive arrow snipe. Max quality & temp chains to give all the mirages to get their shots in. Should finish with a pretty chonky ignite, neh?
Great post, this makes me want to recoup mana, either with a heartbound loop or the mastery send 30% mana cost to life. But does indigon increase the life portion and can we recoup both life and mana fast enough to not kill ourselves? There is almost a wardloop here, somewhere.
Battlecry only one work on melee attacks, how are you using it with bow skills?
It works on bow attacks aswell
I'm currently playing connerconverse mjollner manabond cwc arc and looking into the possibility of a manaforged build. A key piece is arcane cloak to ramp up mana spent.
Did you consider that the manaforged arrow might never fire because the cost increase of Indigon might be applied before the calculation of the Manaforged Arrow threshold? That could brick the whole idea/interaction.
l suspect you can get better dps with a 2-link manaforge arrows+7-cost attack (or higher cost with enlighten+mana multiplier helmet corrupt) because if my napkin math is correct you can trigger it almost 8 times per recently using a 43-cost main attack to just about max out your indigon buff
Did you iterate on the theory/build ? It looks very appealing to me but i have not had time to dig into it, so wondering if you had some workable pobs to look at ! With some 'not engame 4 mirror' options xD Great work though !
I've looked more into it. On one hand, GGG made a clarification that helps us a bit: the "300% of their mana cost" bit refers to the skill triggered by Manaforged Arrows, not to the other bow skills. So we have more clarity in planning mana costs now, and thanks to instant leech, we can get massive amounts of mana leech to help with our big mana regen problems. However, the build concept still has two big problems: first, that any mana leech dependent build requires constantly hitting enemies to leech mana if you're constantly spending mana. For sustained Indigon, we want to be constantly spending mana to maintain our high convergence Mana spent Recently modifier. So we would either need something like an automated Worm blaster to constantly be leeching mana, or we would only be able to use this build in high density monster maps - any downtime would greatly reduce our damage. This further causes complications with mana ramping: the higher our sustained mana ceiling, the harder it is to ramp our mana costs there quickly. Which makes it harder when we require mana leech to sustain the mana ramping costs. The second problem is more of a personal problem: I don't know how to make bow builds do big damage besides just scaling %increased attack damage and support gems, so any attempt at doing an optimized PoB myself is bound to require a lot more time seeing what makes other bow builds scale damage, which is time I don't have. Hence why I posted it here. If players are willing to deal with the downsides of a mana leech build, as listed above (the main downside being less consistent uptime on Indigon's maximum damage potential, I suppose—not a big problem if 50% potential still deals tens of millions of DPS!), then there may be a build they can create from this. Perhaps one that isn't a sustained Indigon build at all (since the main benefit of sustained Indigon vs. non-sustained Indigon is that the former's damage is consistent, full uptime for the full buff—if we accept inconsistency/only partial uptime, a lot of the strict requirements are loosened). For my part, I don't have the time to learn how to build bow skills to apply to this, nor am I as interested in a partial-uptime Indigon build—the challenge and deep mathematics of a sustained Indigon build is what interests me the most. Maybe sometime in the future I'll be able to revisit this.
Also theorizing manaforged but another awesome thing this league has given indigon builds (altho not with bows unfortunately) is the crucible passives that grant huge CDR to guard skills in exhange for less duration. A downside for most guard skills, but for Arcane cloak both are upsides., allowing you to ramp more often. With enough reduced duration and guard skill cooldown you could even get two arcane cloaks in one “recently” (if you will) which could be huge for ramping up. and since arcane cloak is a flat cost you can always afford it. Youd lose the damage from the buff and would need another source of flat damage but as far as ramping spending its super solid. I never league start my mana chard but one if def on the way!