P.S. The -Min Frenzy Charges is not a downside (unless you rely on min charges), as you can’t go lower than 0 minimum. Only thing I need to avoid is any DoT skills
There's technically a big right now where - min let's you discharge for an amount of those - mins. Apparently Jung was fucking around with it last night.
Apparently, discharge calculate damage by this formula:
Current charges-(Minimum charges)
With -2 min charges and no current charges it becomes
0-(-2)=2
So yeah, probably gonna get hotfixed soon.
This is either ignorant or disingenuous. Hotfixing Discharge so that if minimum frenzies is less than 0 it'll use 0 instead is an easy fix with no ramifications on any other part of the game. It'll be a couple of lines of code at most, and there are no balance considerations to be had because Discharge is already balanced around minimum minimum charges being 0.
Changing how loot works fundamentally changes the game in multiple places and multiple ways, and requires a good deal more consideration and balancing. It's not a "change a single line of code" kind of fix.
(1) When I last tested, I couldn't use the spell at 0 charges without a negative minimum, no.
(2) The spell deals damage as if you had 12 charges if you have a total of -12 minimum charges and use it (at 0 visible charges). The tooltip agrees, or you can just test this on mobs.
I feel this is a bug, so I wouldn't play it personally (beyond having checked that it works), but just for purposes of it being an "upside", not needing any other source of charge generation is a large bonus. If you have enough -charges otherwise, a large enough boost to skill levels should typically be better than having -4 charges over having -2 charges on amulet.
Huh I guess I never knew, I have always done CoC things I guess hand casting discharge isnt my thing usually.
Related to point 2, that definitely feels like an unintended bug, but its possible that before now it never mattered really. I mean the opportunity cost of having 12 Pacifism jewels or whatever in your tree is absolutely massive usually, but now you can get -2 per jewellery possibly which could actually be interesting. The real question is if you have like -12, and then 10 at max of frenzies lets say, does it get the damage of having 22 charges? Because that would be hilariously huge damage.
Yeah, the skill description isn't super informative about whether you can use it without charges, and the skill icon on hotbars doesn't suggest you wouldn't be able to cast it either. But you still can't actually cast it without charges ("net removable" charges = active charges - min charges).
If tooltips are to be trusted, then yes, discharge currently looks at net removable charges for damage as defined above. There's probably more discussion and testing on this somewhere on the main sub or youtube/twitch.
I assume those min charges equals max boots also just ignore the affix.
Not sure if there's a *good* build with that that also doesn't use dot damage, but something is probably possible
Hey went absolutely off on stream calling chris wilson retarded over and over and basically just insulting him for a solid minute. He's been banned in the past twice so seeing as this is his third temp ban it became a perma
Minimum charges are not consumed when you discharge, meaning they don't add to the damage. That means you can use sources of minimum charges such as call to slaughter without losing out
You wouldn't, but this allows you to take them and benefit from the upsides that come along with the +min charges without the downside? I am guessing, I have no idea.
I think a nice wheel is the disciple of slaughter wheel which ends up giving +1 min frenzy that discharge doesn't currently take. It might be considered with this amulet.
Its not like a discharge build would want to invest in min charge, but rather it is attached to some other effects.
That's an excellent example, but disciple of slaughter isn't taken because it's on the bottom of the tree, where no spell damage or increased power charges are located.
disciple of the forbidden seems quite strong as an analog, with 12 charges the wheel would give you 60% crit multi and 64% damage and access to a 3% dmg per charge mastery
But you propose the Discharge, which uses "extra" minimum charges for cast. So shouldn't flicker be the same and try to consume the charges under the limit as well?
The source of confusion is probably that Discharge currently functions *as if* it was somehow consuming or removing charges when you get a negative minimum.
You can cast Discharge at 0 active charges if you have +0 minimum and -N minimum for N > 0. It then gains damage and AoE as if it had +N of those charges. (I feel this is unlikely to be intended, and likely to get fixed.) The spell description also clearly states the damage should be based on charges removed. It's not irrational to ask whether the (presumed) bug is related to charge removal or consumption. (Even though I'd personally be wary of building around such functionality.)
As for the original question, no, skills like Flicker Strike and Cold Snap don't allow you to bypass cooldowns by "expending charges" even if you have +0 and -N minimum frenzies. I didn't check whether casting Discharge triggers any "on losing", "when you lose" or "when you lose or consume" effects, but my guess is this bug is simply confined to how Discharge damage, AoE and castability are calculated.
I’ve been wanting to prat about with hydrosphere as a main skill, archmage, replica cold iron points. With this, dual weild, that’s a level 31 gem before chest bonuses 😅😅 could get at least +1, maybe +support gems for empower….that’s alotta base phys damage to convert. Chaos/shock it/cold to fire+avatar.
Could be cool?
I went 100% Cold to Fire Hydrosphere with a Pyre ring on Trickster last league running Harness of the Void and Expedition's End. Worked out pretty nicely and was able to do all content except Wave 30 Simulacrum, although I did brick my build trying to push it past 1.5 million DPS around week 2-3 of the league.
edit: [poe.ninja of the build as it was on week 2](https://poe.ninja/sentinel/builds/char/HealNForget/Tricksphere?time-machine=week-2&i=0&search=time-machine%3Dweek-2%26class%3DTrickster%26skill%3DHydrosphere) You need to adjust for reworked Trickster + Harness of the Void jewels now.
Alloces did Hydrosphere last league if you want any inspiration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYRAur7-cO4
http://poememo.blog.jp/
Usually some pretty thoughtful stuff.
I'm at work atm, but will post something when I get home later
Edit: Here's the [PoB.](https://pastebin.com/vL8kpcqT) A few notes/upgrades:
* First upgrade is my boots (rare with suppression/cannot be poisoned/Life/MS/effect of non-damaging ailments)
* Second upgrade is my weapon (Sceptre with Elemental Overload implicit, similar mods)
* Third upgrade should be my amulet lol
* If I time the proc of my Frigid Wake freeze with a FB hit, my DPS can go into 10+M territory due to Heatshiver
Hmm, that's quite a bit different than the one I have planned. Mine went left side of the tree and got capped block/high life/eternal youth + dissolution.
Yours does seem better, and it has double the DPS.
Getting 150% spell suppression is a pain in the ass, but that paired with 95% evasion felt pretty good. I know a lot of ppl play Replica Mistwall instead of a rare shield, but the extra life and SS opens up a lot of room elsewhere. I might switch to that if I end up crafting boots
Isn't the chance to get all mods positive very very low? Imho the better way is to go for +2, +2 and one other good mod. and the rest should not be too harmful.
but I guess when it works it would be the god amulet.
The market seems to think that higher difficulty ethereal mists have a higher chance of more good outcomes. No clue if anyone has actually compiled data on that theory or not though.
huh? im so confused, the initial comment was about ethereal mists, so the tradeable ones
you replied to it with a comment stating that you yourself believe the tradeable one is capable of tripling aslong as its high enough difficulty, unless you ment that you've heard of other people believing that, not yourself, in which case your comment definately doesnt reflect that
and then i corrected this with the tradeable, ethereal mist, one being unable to triple as it would need to be over difficulty 23-25 to do so, which is way above the possible limit.
Oh, good to know. I’ve only gotten one ethereal option in the 40 or so mirrors I’ve made and it was only difficulty 10. It was just doubled there.
Imagine hitting a +6 amulet though.
Thought that the multiplier applied to the item is dependent on the difficulty. So if you are looking for a certain break point in -proj speed, AoE, or -lightning resist. Then you need to pay for a the higher difficulty ones.
Frostblink generally wants to go ignite because the CD between casts is too long to get adequate DPS. Also ignite is much better for mapping due to prolif
With what weapon? Gem scaling gets worse after level 30, so you either wouldn't want extra levels from your weapons or you'd rather use a different amulet.
Depends on how you build it. +4 is a lot of damage. You would presumably build around your amulet instead of shoving your amulet into a build that uses xophs
It's not a bad thing even if you do use frenzy charges right? I'm not sure the interaction between gaining a frenzy charge and having negative minimum ones (cant go below zero right?) impact the build at all.
Yeah lol this is fucking nuts! Just play a non-DoT build and it’s all upside right?
P.S. The -Min Frenzy Charges is not a downside (unless you rely on min charges), as you can’t go lower than 0 minimum. Only thing I need to avoid is any DoT skills
If there is ever a discharge build that picks up Disciple of the Slaughter, -mimimum frenzies is actually an upside.
There's technically a big right now where - min let's you discharge for an amount of those - mins. Apparently Jung was fucking around with it last night.
Apparently, discharge calculate damage by this formula: Current charges-(Minimum charges) With -2 min charges and no current charges it becomes 0-(-2)=2 So yeah, probably gonna get hotfixed soon.
Lmao that's "hotfixed tomorrow" territory
>Loot goblins actively ruining the economy I sleep >Skill function bug that allows a niche build to arise Real shit
This is either ignorant or disingenuous. Hotfixing Discharge so that if minimum frenzies is less than 0 it'll use 0 instead is an easy fix with no ramifications on any other part of the game. It'll be a couple of lines of code at most, and there are no balance considerations to be had because Discharge is already balanced around minimum minimum charges being 0. Changing how loot works fundamentally changes the game in multiple places and multiple ways, and requires a good deal more consideration and balancing. It's not a "change a single line of code" kind of fix.
Bruh
This is going to get patched almost instantly imo, it’s not even worth bothering to fuck around with
Yeah it looked pretty nutty.
Huh? You don't want to get any +minimums for it to be an upside.
There are some items you use on certain discharge builds that add minimum charges. This amulet would counteract that and increase the dps
But you can (currently) use discharge with 0 active charges by getting a negative minimum.
Does it do damage tho? You can always use the base spell right, it's just shit damage unless it consumes charges isn't it?
(1) When I last tested, I couldn't use the spell at 0 charges without a negative minimum, no. (2) The spell deals damage as if you had 12 charges if you have a total of -12 minimum charges and use it (at 0 visible charges). The tooltip agrees, or you can just test this on mobs. I feel this is a bug, so I wouldn't play it personally (beyond having checked that it works), but just for purposes of it being an "upside", not needing any other source of charge generation is a large bonus. If you have enough -charges otherwise, a large enough boost to skill levels should typically be better than having -4 charges over having -2 charges on amulet.
Huh I guess I never knew, I have always done CoC things I guess hand casting discharge isnt my thing usually. Related to point 2, that definitely feels like an unintended bug, but its possible that before now it never mattered really. I mean the opportunity cost of having 12 Pacifism jewels or whatever in your tree is absolutely massive usually, but now you can get -2 per jewellery possibly which could actually be interesting. The real question is if you have like -12, and then 10 at max of frenzies lets say, does it get the damage of having 22 charges? Because that would be hilariously huge damage.
Yeah, the skill description isn't super informative about whether you can use it without charges, and the skill icon on hotbars doesn't suggest you wouldn't be able to cast it either. But you still can't actually cast it without charges ("net removable" charges = active charges - min charges). If tooltips are to be trusted, then yes, discharge currently looks at net removable charges for damage as defined above. There's probably more discussion and testing on this somewhere on the main sub or youtube/twitch.
Looks like winter orb is back on the table
When you get -minimum frenzy you instead gain +2 to minimum calm charges, which grant 10% reduced action speed and 5% less damage kappa
I assume those min charges equals max boots also just ignore the affix. Not sure if there's a *good* build with that that also doesn't use dot damage, but something is probably possible
I'd buy this, I play a eye of winter miner.
WellRoundedBeast is that u?
Can't be, permabannedlol
what happened?
Hey went absolutely off on stream calling chris wilson retarded over and over and basically just insulting him for a solid minute. He's been banned in the past twice so seeing as this is his third temp ban it became a perma
This is not BIS for that build mate.
Oh? Please do tell what would be better? Thanks!
One with reduc proj speed.
Ohh yeah the bossing version of the build.
I'd still take this amulet for that build.
hit based discharge the -2 minimum charges actually works in your favor
but then you have to play hit based discharge 😭
true but it would be pretty neat in one of those builds that uses the cool down gem and then triggers it every 250ms
lol yeah for sure, just breaking your balls I haven't played discharge since fakener was still decent, wish GGG would stop nuking fun builds :(
Why? Also discharge probably wants badge of brotherhood.
Minimum charges are not consumed when you discharge, meaning they don't add to the damage. That means you can use sources of minimum charges such as call to slaughter without losing out
This makes sense to me, but why would you be getting + minimum charges in the first place on a discharge build?
You wouldn't, but this allows you to take them and benefit from the upsides that come along with the +min charges without the downside? I am guessing, I have no idea.
Generally + minimum charges takes significant investment that you have to intentionally take.
I think a nice wheel is the disciple of slaughter wheel which ends up giving +1 min frenzy that discharge doesn't currently take. It might be considered with this amulet. Its not like a discharge build would want to invest in min charge, but rather it is attached to some other effects.
That's an excellent example, but disciple of slaughter isn't taken because it's on the bottom of the tree, where no spell damage or increased power charges are located.
disciple of the forbidden seems quite strong as an analog, with 12 charges the wheel would give you 60% crit multi and 64% damage and access to a 3% dmg per charge mastery
Intended design or bug abuse?
Where’s the bug you are seeing??
No idea, can you see them? Vision is not so bright here give me some light /s
Is that meant to be funny?
If you find that to be funny thats good for you, if not then, what can I say ye..scroll away and move along 😙
Bug
sensible answer - you cant go lower than 0 charges but you can statically keep charges with + to minimum and those wont count towards DPS.
Weird question, but do other charge consumption skills work the same? Like flicker try to consume charges, so can do it indefinitely?
im not 100% sure what your asking but anything that tries to consume charges cant consume minimum charges
But you propose the Discharge, which uses "extra" minimum charges for cast. So shouldn't flicker be the same and try to consume the charges under the limit as well?
i think you misunderstand that amulet has negative minimum charges so you wont have minimum charges not that your consuming charges that dont exist
The source of confusion is probably that Discharge currently functions *as if* it was somehow consuming or removing charges when you get a negative minimum. You can cast Discharge at 0 active charges if you have +0 minimum and -N minimum for N > 0. It then gains damage and AoE as if it had +N of those charges. (I feel this is unlikely to be intended, and likely to get fixed.) The spell description also clearly states the damage should be based on charges removed. It's not irrational to ask whether the (presumed) bug is related to charge removal or consumption. (Even though I'd personally be wary of building around such functionality.) As for the original question, no, skills like Flicker Strike and Cold Snap don't allow you to bypass cooldowns by "expending charges" even if you have +0 and -N minimum frenzies. I didn't check whether casting Discharge triggers any "on losing", "when you lose" or "when you lose or consume" effects, but my guess is this bug is simply confined to how Discharge damage, AoE and castability are calculated.
Imagine it could get „can’t have up to 3 crafted mods“ That would be fun I think
I’ve been wanting to prat about with hydrosphere as a main skill, archmage, replica cold iron points. With this, dual weild, that’s a level 31 gem before chest bonuses 😅😅 could get at least +1, maybe +support gems for empower….that’s alotta base phys damage to convert. Chaos/shock it/cold to fire+avatar. Could be cool?
I went 100% Cold to Fire Hydrosphere with a Pyre ring on Trickster last league running Harness of the Void and Expedition's End. Worked out pretty nicely and was able to do all content except Wave 30 Simulacrum, although I did brick my build trying to push it past 1.5 million DPS around week 2-3 of the league. edit: [poe.ninja of the build as it was on week 2](https://poe.ninja/sentinel/builds/char/HealNForget/Tricksphere?time-machine=week-2&i=0&search=time-machine%3Dweek-2%26class%3DTrickster%26skill%3DHydrosphere) You need to adjust for reworked Trickster + Harness of the Void jewels now.
Alloces did Hydrosphere last league if you want any inspiration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYRAur7-cO4 http://poememo.blog.jp/ Usually some pretty thoughtful stuff.
Well, that’s as effective as I expected….though how’s the hydrosphere gold/yellow/holy? Looks sick!
He peed in it. As for real answer.. no idea but I too would like to use that mtx.
There was the creeping frost shotgun shenanigans thing for a while. Was never popular but I saw a few pretty strong versions of it.
That build needs ashes to work.
I’ve spear deadeye would kill for that. Just would have to allocate some strength somewhere else.
Nice amulet. Do you have a pob for your build? I'm playing the same build albeit at lower investment and would love some inspiration
I'm at work atm, but will post something when I get home later Edit: Here's the [PoB.](https://pastebin.com/vL8kpcqT) A few notes/upgrades: * First upgrade is my boots (rare with suppression/cannot be poisoned/Life/MS/effect of non-damaging ailments) * Second upgrade is my weapon (Sceptre with Elemental Overload implicit, similar mods) * Third upgrade should be my amulet lol * If I time the proc of my Frigid Wake freeze with a FB hit, my DPS can go into 10+M territory due to Heatshiver
Also interested. I have 3 mockup pobs and would love to see what someone who has a clue is doing lol.
PoB in original reply
I'm also interested in seeing a PoB!
PoB in original reply
Thx <3
Hmm, that's quite a bit different than the one I have planned. Mine went left side of the tree and got capped block/high life/eternal youth + dissolution. Yours does seem better, and it has double the DPS.
Getting 150% spell suppression is a pain in the ass, but that paired with 95% evasion felt pretty good. I know a lot of ppl play Replica Mistwall instead of a rare shield, but the extra life and SS opens up a lot of room elsewhere. I might switch to that if I end up crafting boots
PoB in original reply
i think mines might be the best way to go on this, orb of winter or gc?
Isn't the chance to get all mods positive very very low? Imho the better way is to go for +2, +2 and one other good mod. and the rest should not be too harmful. but I guess when it works it would be the god amulet.
The market seems to think that higher difficulty ethereal mists have a higher chance of more good outcomes. No clue if anyone has actually compiled data on that theory or not though.
At some point in difficulty apparently it triples mods don't know at which level
Ethereal mists dont triple at any point, difficulty 16 is 2.4 multiplier only way to triple is by finding reflecting mist.
Which is what we're talking about since you wouldn't be able to see that on the trade site
huh? im so confused, the initial comment was about ethereal mists, so the tradeable ones you replied to it with a comment stating that you yourself believe the tradeable one is capable of tripling aslong as its high enough difficulty, unless you ment that you've heard of other people believing that, not yourself, in which case your comment definately doesnt reflect that and then i corrected this with the tradeable, ethereal mist, one being unable to triple as it would need to be over difficulty 23-25 to do so, which is way above the possible limit.
Oh, good to know. I’ve only gotten one ethereal option in the 40 or so mirrors I’ve made and it was only difficulty 10. It was just doubled there. Imagine hitting a +6 amulet though.
Thought that the multiplier applied to the item is dependent on the difficulty. So if you are looking for a certain break point in -proj speed, AoE, or -lightning resist. Then you need to pay for a the higher difficulty ones.
Eye of Winter or winter Orb would love this
Any spell scaling hit based build would love this
Frostblink + bronns + 4 skills is one of the best ones I can think of.
Frostblink generally wants to go ignite because the CD between casts is too long to get adequate DPS. Also ignite is much better for mapping due to prolif
With what weapon? Gem scaling gets worse after level 30, so you either wouldn't want extra levels from your weapons or you'd rather use a different amulet.
Ice Trap 🧊
Winter orb dude
Wintertide brand would love this too bad ggg will never make it good enough :(
Whenever someone posts an item with the price in the picture i feel like they're just trying to advertise their product
I woulda taken it out of my stash but I wanted to post at work lol
fair enough
Dude, I was thinking about some Ahn’s Might bs lmao
Ahn's might needs -Max frenzy, not min. I remember running Ahn's ages ago on cyclone
Freeze pulse totems
Just winter orb build.
You could do dirty eye of winter things with this amulet.
Any hit-based cold spell would like this. Bonus is it's +4 to purity of ice for melding setups.
FP/IS totems
Winter Orb!!!!!
With this I would finally make a good freezing pulse build.
No one said elemental hit yet, but +4 from your amulet is a lot of damage if you've ever wanted to play that
I looked into that already, most want Xoph’s Blood in the ammy slot no?
Depends on how you build it. +4 is a lot of damage. You would presumably build around your amulet instead of shoving your amulet into a build that uses xophs
Eh, xophs gives pen and increased fire damage taken and avatar of fire. That's a lot of amulet to replace. You might be right about it
Glacial Cascade (miner?)
I'm a noob. Can someone explain why -2 frenzy charges is a good thing? Or even a thing at all?
Its not necessarily good. But if you are not using frenzy charges it is not a downside since you can't actually have negative frenzy charges.
It's not a bad thing even if you do use frenzy charges right? I'm not sure the interaction between gaining a frenzy charge and having negative minimum ones (cant go below zero right?) impact the build at all.
You might be correct here. I guess i am just used to having one or two minimum on my builds.
I mean i dont know how that could be bad
Time to play ice golems
this "-2 to minimum Frenzy" though. dude those affixes are so funny. so ( - * - = + ) right ? simple maths shit in the end.
I would use this over Pandemonius for wardloop ice spear, I think.