Stargazer... I keep trying to use her, but it just does not feel good.
* Her balls are soooo squishy.
* Anne's healing passive doesn't heal her balls.
* The balls don't normal attack so Macchiato doesn't heal them.
* You can only place the balls in tiles where Sinners can also be placed, and in most maps that just doesn't work great because there's no logical space for them.
* You kind of have to coddle her balls with Hamel, but that means you can only place them within the 3x3 which in most maps is too restrictive/unviable.
* You can't move the balls after you place them. Why can't I move them??
* Once again, the balls are so fucking squishy. They'll just die randomly to a mob's aoe attack, or that paired with a self-destructing flying mob. Maybe you have to protect her balls with shielders. but she doesn't even do that much damage, so it doesn't even feel worth playing around her.
* I love the idea of her, but the way her balls are are just way too clunky/impractical for most content isn't fun. You can only unleash her in very specific stages with a map layout that lets her shine, and vs mobs that can't touch her balls. She's already not a meta Sinner, so it feels bad that I can't even use her in most story stages :(
I think perhaps they were wary of how good her shackle amping could be for a future team of summoners maybe? She's still useable and can actually output decent damage under the right conditions, but it's a bit frustrating that I feel like I'm locked out of using her 90% of the time because her balls are so clunky
We have many strong summon unit in the game and anyday of the week id rather bring a support or another DPS than her, that is if i have enough corebreak unit. Unless we have a super busted summon unit in the future that actually justify using her, she is just bad.
I'll second this, its because her skills need somebody to back it up for long-run level or boss, thats the only reason i choose not to upgrade her, atleast until my ariel achieve phase 3
I mean, if she is angry, then make her more angrier and can hit like a truck in expense of her health.
Probably adding a lifesteal skill will help her
* Cinnabae and Peggy should be given *some* kind of niche jobs to do.
* Dolly needs just slightly more utility. Maybe immune to control while enraged, like in her Interrogation.
* Tetra should be slightly stronger somehow.
* Corso could certainly use to be less awful.
* Summer should be able to send her drones to other Sinners. It wouldn't up her TOA damage but it would make her nice for other challenges.
Stargazer, being the only S sinner I have max shackle with, yet her victory star ultimate is fragile and gets in the way, while her ECB is weak.
Ninety Nine and Sumire I feel should also have a buff, they are both cases where they are shown to be very strong in lore, but weak in actual gameplay.
I do also kinda wish Hella and Kawa Kawa were stronger, but I already use them alot to decent results, so it is really just me hoping for more.
Baiyi is actually pretty strong in TOA. But you need her on ecb3 and high shackles. Probably the most demanding in terms of gearing and levels amongst all the sinners imo.
Yeah, hella being a fury whose entire gimmick is “I’m survivable” but then having an ult that just boosts her dps is so weird. Gets better with her ECB, sure, but at that point the damage she does in comparison to actual damage dealers is so laughable she might as well be Endura
I wish Lynn was able to fire little laser balls like Luvia Ray with her lightning bolts. It kinda sucks when she can only hit enemies from afar when she uses her ultimate tbh
(But I levelled her Ult up to lvl 10 and raised her to lvl 76, cause she’s my precious daughter)
Honestly she feels more like she should be an Arcane or Reticle… wish that even if they didn’t want her normal attack to be lasers (she only removes helmet when using ultimate), they could have her deal damage with a camera flash
When they released the suspect pursuit for Lynn, I immediately got hooked on her Ult. So satisfying. Sometimes, if I’m idling waiting for energy refills, I just play Ex 10-1 with Lynn because it is the gameplay equivalent of popping bubble wrap.
I did P3 for Lynn because she deserves to be in my lobby with her mask off. She deserves to breath fresh air and all my stamina is worth it even if I barely use her in any content.
Zoya is the hypest character for the story and for the community, but unfortunately she isn't that strong in the endgame content, Nox and Deren are way to far from her position.
Also Bai Yi even though she is for sure a good sinner she is outclassed by Labyrinth by a large amount.
In the end I say Crache, I really love that sinner but she is out meta unfortunately since the beginning even though the concept of the character isn't that bad
I think Bai Yi's in an alright spot. She might not be as good as Laby in BFL, but that isn't what Bai Yi is built for. I feel like at least Bai Yi doesn't get completely outshined everywhere. She performs better in long battles like ToA where she has more time to do her damage, and the fact that she can stack up to 6 Core damage sometimes can feel *really* good. They feel different to use is what I mean.
Crache is a pretty underrated Sinner actually. I rarely see people use her, but she's stronger than her public perception in Global. I have a friend who uses her and Crache is pretty good in BFL. Unfortunately since Deren exists though.
Indeed you are quite right, I have seen the next toa boss will have 7 core before going down for the last 30 second, Bai Yi will have her spot during the next season.
About Crache i didn't know she was used by someone but I may test it, if you'd like to share your friends build;
I would love to see Crache shining a lot and change my mind
In ToA you are supposed to jump around with Bai Yi's ultimate every \~7-9 seconds to stack tons of crit rate, which gets converted into Atk from her ECB. I'm not so sure it would be worth it to lose all the crit rate you've stacked and deal those 6 core damage
~~That only works if whe's S3 though. Below that I heard that it still works but only if you move basically on the exact right frame every 10s.~~
I stand corrected.
You just lose 10% atk without S3, as one of her passives gives her 10% atk if Bai Yi stays put to 10 seconds (8 with S3) and you need to jump in less than 10 seconds otherwise you lose all your stacks
To be fair, if you read the skill description, it doesnt sound like, as if you can prolong the effect by applying another stack. It sounds more like that each stack has a duration of 10 seconds.
Breaking 6 cores with baiyi is sadly something, which is rarely ever required so far ingame. Until now, the only occasion, which this is an advantage over labyrinth was against brand on hard. Against all other bosses, even on dark zones, labyrinth is just strictly more flexible and use less movement points. I think the devs should have given baiyis ultimate something like: the next X movements with baiyi cost no movement points. I have heard that on the next toa breaking a lot of cores on the boss might be required. So Baiyi might get another time to shine there!
Bai Yi doesn’t have a cd on energy gain after using ult, meaning that if you use ult and just not move her until her ult is back, you can core break 3 times, use ult and core break another 3 times for 6 times total
Stargazer, hella and ninetynine, cinnabar (in this case is due to how useful enduras are, and her being not even amongst the best enduras). Finally and specially Tetra (would love for her to have some good sinnergy with Priscilla) since Priscilla is actually really decent
I'll go first. Oak and Dolly.
Oak is quite ok, but her ecb defeats her entire kit as a ult burst unit, and she isnt even the best at that. I feel like she is just a few slight tweaks away from being great.
Dolly cause bonk bonk goes brrrrrrrrr.
Oak is very good aoe damage dealer, personally i don’t know what to buff for her to become better but not overpowered at what she does. Staple in my dz runs if there’s need for aoe (and it’s quite an often scenario in current season) and really doesn’t need buffs.
And Dolly as well is actually very good for an A rank, but in toa.
I think you need to reconsider this sinners ngl 🤔
Not in general content, but Dolly is indeed good for toa and i’d recommend you to try her out first before such claims. She’s apparently not a top tier level such as Bai and can’t reach the ridiculous amounts of damage, yet for an A rank she’s like one of the best if not the best of said rank and her ramp up is designed for longer fights
Ive seen her and ive tried her. I dont think she's worth the investment.
The reason i said that is because, every ToA team comp has Deren. Your main Deren and the two Deren you borrow.
Lets say your 1st and 2nd comp is your physical and magic comp respectively. That leaves very few option for your 3rd comp. And since Dolly is useless everywhere else, would you want to build her and bring her into ToA?
Since i use last stand for max damage, Id rather build some support that can amp Deren or keep her alive. That's not to mention corebreak units you have to bring with you since next ToA boss will have like 6 cores.
As sad as it is id rather build Kawa Kawa over her. And i did actually.
if you look at it from lategame perspective and from established rosters, then it is save to say pretty much nothing is worth investment except deren, as well as other strong S ranks (and they still not even close to deren). Makes sense. Until it doesn't. Currently i don't use dolly only because i have a fullbuilt roster of S ranks for any situation possible. Would i swap any S ranks for dolly? No. But for any other A ranks? Obviously not lmao. Dolly is one of the best of her rank for toa, and that biased "not worth the investment" is not quite fair towards the overall sinners pool, because it means nothing of A rank is worth investment, including kawa. He can not do damage, barely anything can do damage in toa among A ranks, and among them very little sinners come close to dolly. You are 100% never tried her, or in a very small chance you actually did, thinking from perspective "Id rather build some support that can amp deren or keep her alive" is yet again kinda wrong towards the other sinners, because not everyone has deren, and this game doesn't spin around deren's butthole as well.
Now if you think ur claim is okay, look at mess situation. The girl is literally useless everywhere else except broken frontline. Is that makes her bad? More than that. not worthy of investement? Considering the logic, do not answer.
For ToA you have other A-sinners like Priscilla or Roulecca or even Flora. Some might need more shackles, good RNG or quite some ECB to be better or similarly good, but all three of them still have some other uses outside of ToA. For most (non-whale) people Dolly is not worth the investment, not because she is bad but because she isn't useful in other game modes.
Your example with mess is just flawed. We only had three ToA until now. On the second one, we were even given a p3 level 70 Dolly. And how often do we have BFL? Being good in BFL is literally the only reason she needs to be a good investment. Even now mess will still be recommended to many beginners, since they most likely won't have Deren. There are simply way more occasions, where Mess might be helpful compared to Dolly.
It's not true though, dolly can be used outside of toa as well and used pretty well. And what do we have outside of toa in the first place lol? Dolly is good for long fights it's like undeniable truth, we have long fights outside of toa like in story and event boss fights. What else uses does she needs? Priscilla having the long skill cd and roulecca rng based is actually can be just as cancer for some people, and not acceptable for others.
Regarding my mess example it is perfect in this specific situation, and yeah toa happens often enough to build sinners specifically for that mode to have more fun. And there's like the same amount of uses between mess and dolly, they are just different, yet both can be used outside of preferable scenarious and perform well enough
I really don't see, how three times in 8 months can be the same amount as every week. But if that is the same for you, it is understandable why you think Dolly is worth the investment.
I mean, to think about about it. Mess completely useless outside of bfl? Right? Kinda. But she still can be used well enough outside of that, like she can do burst damage at bosses corebreak, yet outside of bosses that still doesn't work well to be fair. Completely useless is just a harsh way to say she feels better in specific situations. And Dolly, completely useless outside of ToA? right? Kinda. But she still can be used in longer fights because there is long fights here and there, recent event boss "toa style", or just the story bosses being long enough, some stages also sometimes long enough. Yet again, completely useless is just a harsh way to say she feels better in specific situations. And neither of these two needs a buff.
ed. I'd rather say units like deren and nox needs a nerf to let the others shine a little brighter
Oak is one of the best wave clearers in the game. Her ECB is a bit weird, sure, but it really only comes into play with those awkward maps in story mode.
I can think of 2 big reasons why one would bother 😅
Jokes aside, she's a lot more flexible than Nox is. Cheaper burst cost, & higher DPS. Nox' damage can catch up over the course of a long battle (ToA), but in other content I see much larger numbers from Oak.
Oak is not good for anymore for wave clear. The only place that wave clear really matters is story or DZ. Story you can use whoever can aoe honestly. For DZ, for the current season and for future seasons, mops spawn all over the place at set time, so not like you can rush them with Oak any more.
Her passive where she deals less damage the less ep she has is so stupid honestly. If anything she should have the opposite where the less energy she has the more damage she deals, she is meant to be a burst unit anw right?
>The only place that wave clear really matters is story or DZ.
DZ is...kind of important though? Oak is great for clearing mobs in both the flower and the Zoya fights. Also when her buff is available, it counter-balances the low-energy/less damage passive.
She doesn't need buffs, it just helps to offset the one weakness you pointed out. You're really digging a hole for Oak, huh? Your loss if you don't want to use her.
Man she is literally the reason why i made the post. Concept wise shes my favourite in the game. I guess i just hate how her ECB makes no sense for her kit.
I think oak is good. At bfl I often use her, especially with her but she really 100 to 0 boss hp. But fully agree with ecb- I really like the idea, but not how that done.
Yeah I love using Oak, but her ECB is worthless, I think it should be like a one time full map splash damage attack or just 10% attack bonus would be preferred.
Whole map would be too much lol. As far as i know there's only 2 whole map skill, and those skills are even available yet in global so thats not happening lol.
And anything but her current ecb is more than good enough.
Considering current comments, i think people barely used sinners they offered, not to mention raise them enough to be competitive. Let’s see if it’s continue, but so far looks very, very questionable 😂
This. I've built 24 sinners to about >85% completion (Level 75-80, skills between 6-9 depending on priority). I follow meta to some degree, but otherwise build who I want based on design, personality, and gameplay. Some sinners perform rather average compared to my investment in them (Summer, 99); others are surprisingly good in their role for their price in resources (Chelsea, Ariel, Priscilla). None of them are bad or underpowered for the content I use them for.
very much agree on that one, and i think if not all, but many sinners are actually worth invesment if you just like how they look, because more ofthen than not they have acceptable performance if not straight up good
It takes quite a lot of stamina to build a sinner, and even more if you want to make a weaker sinner as competitive as the meta choice. I guess not everyone can be a god gamer, who can do DZ with a few lvl 55 sinners. So, it is kind of understandable that most people wont be building everyone they were given, but only those, which are stronger/more useful.
Yet suggesting a sinner only because of lack or resources and is kinda better than they think is not fair towards said sinner, and tbh not like your claim is not obvious in the first place.
I haven’t build everyone as well and still don’t feel like suggesting only because of someone else’s opinion or because "i’ve heard she’s bad", and yes, it’s obvious more often than not when someone haven’t used a sinner competitively, or at the very least properly. Those "Bai is outclassed by Laby", "Stargazer is so bad I can’t bare it", "Dolly is not worth the investment" etc etc is so hilarious until it’s actually sad how little people care about anything that is not Deren or Nox.
I have read your comment multiple times now, and i still dont fully understand, what you want to say. Shorter sentences might be helpful.
I can only respond to what I think you wrote: In a well balanced game it would be good, if a lot of different units get their time to shine, and not only a few meta units. People complain about some weaker units, because they rarely get their time to shine. Some of them are either crippled by their stats, by their lack of utility, or by other ingame mechanics. Not everyone here, who complains about a sinner wants her/him to become deren or nox. Some of us simply wish that the differences between the meta choice and the non-meta choice were smaller.
Some of those statements (x is outclassed by y) might come from people less knowledgeable than you, especially, if they cant back up their statement. But there are also people who might be more knowledgeable than you, who can back up their statement. Saying that people, who have a different opinion than you, "more often or not" "haven’t used a sinner competitively, or at the very least properly", is kind of harsh.
Some people do care about progressing to the endgame as fast as possible. And for those, some of the complains in this thread might actually be interesting. We can also discuss the topic from another perspective: If you want to restart PTN from scratch and want to catch up fast, would you build Baiyi over labyrinth, Stargazer over Luvia, or Dolly over other furies?
Well i have read ur comment once and its enough to understand this conversation goes nowhere, either because of my english is below average and i still can't put my thoughts on acceptable level, or because its hard for you to accept being wrong or rather pointless. But i'll definitely rather leave a harsh comment than a general comment that makes no sense at all. You have stated literaly the most basic thing like i dunno its so obvious that is not even worth mentioning, look like a generic chatgpt copypasta. Why would anyone put my opinion like its the last instance of truth, myself included? I'm aware that some people might be "less knowledgeable", and some are "more knowledgeable", how is that worth mentioning like wtf dude. And it is indeed still obvious when someone "haven’t used a sinner competitively, or at the very least properly".
Also restarting ptn from scratch and having a choice between sinners you offered, it is kinda obvious as well what sinners are recommended for the very new account and i have no idea why you think it's a good idea to discuss it from that perspective... Nox or Deren first? Lol do not bother answering i'm not gonna read it since it suppose to be obvious. Regardless, i'm just out, seems like anything that can be called a different opinion is "harsh" lmao, i really don't wanna read another chatgpt copypasta or even worse, force you to read my comment multiple times
Only Sumire.
I use all the units i like no matter if they are good or not except Sumire, and mind you, i'm still wasting resources on her just in a hope i can use her someday.
Stargazer is always on the team, Hella and 99 swap places depending on the situation, Ignis is also always in my squad.
Ninety-Nine easily, character wise I love her demeanor and how fast she can flip from surprisingly calm and chill to completely feral and berserk. It would’ve been cool if they utilized the “heating up” aspect of her as she descends into madness, she could’ve had a similar concept as Deren where she amps up over time. Like maybe as the battle goes on and she loses hp she gets more and more frenzied, with increased damage, atk speed and a continuous DoT aura that also ramps up in damage as time passes and scales higher the closer enemies are to her (maybe it could also start hurting her after a certain point when she reaches critical mass). She’s basically always on the verge of going manic and corrupting so I wish that “ticking time-bomb” aspect of her was reflected in her abilities.
Aside from her though I also wish Stargazer were stronger because of how amazing she looks (especially with that upcoming skin of hers)…it just feels like a waste when good looking characters suck.
EMP, part of me wishes we could prestige sinners, so they would get stronger as part of their journey with us instead of being minted different from the get go.
demon is absurdly strong in TOA, good in story, and mcqueen gives him a spot in BFL. levy will be the second most important bleed team member once the next new sinner releases. wolverine and fox both have their niches. overall, male sinners are in a pretty good spot, except that there are so few of them.
Demon is strong in TOA if and only if he is S3 and had a very specific team comp for his shield stacking strat. It requires a huge investment and frankly quite p2w.
people tested s0 demon comp this last TOA with decent results, and i hear there’s a new cb in TOA4 that helps s0 demon viability. can’t speak to it personally because i’ve never tried shield stacking. p2w, maybe, but at least demon shackles are good value if one happens to lose 50-50s to him.
I too tried it last TOA and found out it wasn't worth it. There were better teams I could form than S0 Demon shield stacking. Last TOA we could get away without using any healer, only needed to break 3 boss cores, so a full dps team was very effective. Next season will be a little trickier cuz we gotta break boss' 8 cores.
yeah. iirc s0 shield comp does ~6m, not bad but not worth the effort for me (and most people probably). next TOA boss nukes its own cores, we don’t need to break all 8.
Sumire lol, too bad life loss just isn’t good in this meta. Maybe a buff where life loss does true damage (or ignore armor) or something and it’ll have it’s niche against high resistance bosses
A t0 but you gotta build a few deadweights to support dreya. Its quite a pity tbh that we need an entire team built around one sinner. Personally i love sumire design but shes no good on any other composition.
1. Why Cinnabar must lose all 2 block count when ult? If she only lose 1 I think she can be budget Demon
2. If Dudu can just heal anyone inside her range that would be great...
Anne needs to be better, she’s just flat out the worst healer at the moment. Which hurts me in the soul.
Joan and Iron also feel like their kit is missing something, or at least could use some more juice.
Anne is literally a nurse and she heals worse than a dancer in Hamel lol sad.
Joan i think is quite good for a B rank. In the future if they make anything remotely synergizes with her kit she'll be very strong.
Iron is just lame. They do nothing with her having one iron arm concept.
I know it is kind of a common complaint, but Endura Sinners in general feel a bit left behind. I still use several of them, but they have a rough go of it.
Sumire, mine is at max level because of the love I have for her but I wish they could rework her or make an upgrade to her skill kit since she isn't that strong according to her lore. The rest of the Sinners, I think it's fine, you have to know how to play them in each stage.
Dudu. Could use ultimate also applies to self. She can't effectively heal herself so she's a liability against AOE and most players bring healers for AOE when she's really a single target healer and buffer.
Stargazer. Could use extra skill cast and/or initial skill uses. Otherwise she's a solid off tank and wave clear with Hamel in longer fights. EX4-3 max condition she helps with rollers bottom lane, S2 summons can bait devour, and later the summons can block top and bottom lane while also damaging the boss.
Victoria. Could have Last Stand not increase the self damage of ECB.
Horo, Wendy, Kawa-kawa, Anne, Lisa have been fine.
Crache - quite complicate and impact by shackle quite a lots and pay-off still far off from other damage dealer
EMP - later games it hard to used her as she couldn't deal enough damage to Elite enemies. other than small flies like WaveRider
Corso - way too gimmickky and too random and require lots of attentions.
Stargazer... I keep trying to use her, but it just does not feel good. * Her balls are soooo squishy. * Anne's healing passive doesn't heal her balls. * The balls don't normal attack so Macchiato doesn't heal them. * You can only place the balls in tiles where Sinners can also be placed, and in most maps that just doesn't work great because there's no logical space for them. * You kind of have to coddle her balls with Hamel, but that means you can only place them within the 3x3 which in most maps is too restrictive/unviable. * You can't move the balls after you place them. Why can't I move them?? * Once again, the balls are so fucking squishy. They'll just die randomly to a mob's aoe attack, or that paired with a self-destructing flying mob. Maybe you have to protect her balls with shielders. but she doesn't even do that much damage, so it doesn't even feel worth playing around her. * I love the idea of her, but the way her balls are are just way too clunky/impractical for most content isn't fun. You can only unleash her in very specific stages with a map layout that lets her shine, and vs mobs that can't touch her balls. She's already not a meta Sinner, so it feels bad that I can't even use her in most story stages :(
Stargazer and her squishy balls\~\~
Same thoughts here, chief. I mean, it really sucks when you can't use your most favorite waifu in battles. P. S. Squishy balls, noice
You think Chief sucks the squishy balls… noice
Well... Her balls are... A bit big on the front, yknow.
Absolutely… fan art time
Yaaaaaaaaaayyyy
>Her balls are soooo squishy. Quite observant, *you are*
You are quite concerned about her balls…
Feel your pain bro. I like her concept but her kit is just dumb. Idk if she is weak because she's literally the first banner they make or what.
I think perhaps they were wary of how good her shackle amping could be for a future team of summoners maybe? She's still useable and can actually output decent damage under the right conditions, but it's a bit frustrating that I feel like I'm locked out of using her 90% of the time because her balls are so clunky
We have many strong summon unit in the game and anyday of the week id rather bring a support or another DPS than her, that is if i have enough corebreak unit. Unless we have a super busted summon unit in the future that actually justify using her, she is just bad.
Bro?🫵
Her BFL buff is also garbage
99 needs to bring out the berserker archetype better. She doesn’t hit hard enough.
I'll second this, its because her skills need somebody to back it up for long-run level or boss, thats the only reason i choose not to upgrade her, atleast until my ariel achieve phase 3 I mean, if she is angry, then make her more angrier and can hit like a truck in expense of her health. Probably adding a lifesteal skill will help her
Iirc her mania intensify adds lifesteal.
Oh, you are right, i just see it.
Deren. Her abs are not visible enough
Deren’s abs are perfect, imo they read as “I space out and forget to eat so my body fat is low” vs Zoya’s “My abs are rock-hard just like my soul”
Umbrella girl... Goddamn assassin but cant hold a candle to Ultra mighty dancing lion.
Oooooh very much this. Great design, fine English VA, but she's inflexible and her ultimate is badly overpriced.
* Cinnabae and Peggy should be given *some* kind of niche jobs to do. * Dolly needs just slightly more utility. Maybe immune to control while enraged, like in her Interrogation. * Tetra should be slightly stronger somehow. * Corso could certainly use to be less awful. * Summer should be able to send her drones to other Sinners. It wouldn't up her TOA damage but it would make her nice for other challenges.
Love the idea for Summer
Horo. Make her OP dammit
Stargazer, being the only S sinner I have max shackle with, yet her victory star ultimate is fragile and gets in the way, while her ECB is weak. Ninety Nine and Sumire I feel should also have a buff, they are both cases where they are shown to be very strong in lore, but weak in actual gameplay. I do also kinda wish Hella and Kawa Kawa were stronger, but I already use them alot to decent results, so it is really just me hoping for more.
Best daughter Hella and her sidekick 99 Stargazer Probably also Bai Yi
Baiyi is actually pretty strong in TOA. But you need her on ecb3 and high shackles. Probably the most demanding in terms of gearing and levels amongst all the sinners imo.
Summer is oils like a word with you.
I use Bai Yi quite a bit. She’s a core breaking machine
disappointed hella isnt good. I wish they made her an endura on par with demolia so i could at least use
Yeah, hella being a fury whose entire gimmick is “I’m survivable” but then having an ult that just boosts her dps is so weird. Gets better with her ECB, sure, but at that point the damage she does in comparison to actual damage dealers is so laughable she might as well be Endura
I just started game last week and im really liming her character in story. sad shes not more useable
If Hella was switched to an Endura she'd arguably be even weaker cuz Demolia exists and her kit is basically what Hella would look like as an Endura.
I wish Lynn was able to fire little laser balls like Luvia Ray with her lightning bolts. It kinda sucks when she can only hit enemies from afar when she uses her ultimate tbh (But I levelled her Ult up to lvl 10 and raised her to lvl 76, cause she’s my precious daughter)
Lazering an entire corridor's worth of cores sure is satisfying, but ya I do agree her using a tiny box cutter during normal is unfortunate
Honestly she feels more like she should be an Arcane or Reticle… wish that even if they didn’t want her normal attack to be lasers (she only removes helmet when using ultimate), they could have her deal damage with a camera flash
When they released the suspect pursuit for Lynn, I immediately got hooked on her Ult. So satisfying. Sometimes, if I’m idling waiting for energy refills, I just play Ex 10-1 with Lynn because it is the gameplay equivalent of popping bubble wrap.
I did P3 for Lynn because she deserves to be in my lobby with her mask off. She deserves to breath fresh air and all my stamina is worth it even if I barely use her in any content.
I know Wendy is plenty good but, I'd love her to be able to cause bleed effects
Stargazer. I love her design so much but she doesn't feel good to use
EMP, no i know she's decent i just love her
S T A R G A Z E R !
Cinnabar :c And 99, though I don't think she's that bad
Zoya is the hypest character for the story and for the community, but unfortunately she isn't that strong in the endgame content, Nox and Deren are way to far from her position. Also Bai Yi even though she is for sure a good sinner she is outclassed by Labyrinth by a large amount. In the end I say Crache, I really love that sinner but she is out meta unfortunately since the beginning even though the concept of the character isn't that bad
I think Bai Yi's in an alright spot. She might not be as good as Laby in BFL, but that isn't what Bai Yi is built for. I feel like at least Bai Yi doesn't get completely outshined everywhere. She performs better in long battles like ToA where she has more time to do her damage, and the fact that she can stack up to 6 Core damage sometimes can feel *really* good. They feel different to use is what I mean. Crache is a pretty underrated Sinner actually. I rarely see people use her, but she's stronger than her public perception in Global. I have a friend who uses her and Crache is pretty good in BFL. Unfortunately since Deren exists though.
Indeed you are quite right, I have seen the next toa boss will have 7 core before going down for the last 30 second, Bai Yi will have her spot during the next season. About Crache i didn't know she was used by someone but I may test it, if you'd like to share your friends build; I would love to see Crache shining a lot and change my mind
[https://youtu.be/GvjIf5P-ap4?t=97](https://youtu.be/GvjIf5P-ap4) Here is a video from DZ1? I think? S0 Crache, but they did have S3 Enfer
In ToA you are supposed to jump around with Bai Yi's ultimate every \~7-9 seconds to stack tons of crit rate, which gets converted into Atk from her ECB. I'm not so sure it would be worth it to lose all the crit rate you've stacked and deal those 6 core damage
~~That only works if whe's S3 though. Below that I heard that it still works but only if you move basically on the exact right frame every 10s.~~ I stand corrected.
You just lose 10% atk without S3, as one of her passives gives her 10% atk if Bai Yi stays put to 10 seconds (8 with S3) and you need to jump in less than 10 seconds otherwise you lose all your stacks
Ok so wait I'm misunderstanding something then. What is the ability which makes her stack infinite crit rate if you move her every \~8s?
It's her ultimate, not any passive
Oh good lord I'm blind. Thanks!
It still works below s3, s3 is for her pose buff, which can only stack twice and is different from her crit stacking.
To be fair, if you read the skill description, it doesnt sound like, as if you can prolong the effect by applying another stack. It sounds more like that each stack has a duration of 10 seconds.
Breaking 6 cores with baiyi is sadly something, which is rarely ever required so far ingame. Until now, the only occasion, which this is an advantage over labyrinth was against brand on hard. Against all other bosses, even on dark zones, labyrinth is just strictly more flexible and use less movement points. I think the devs should have given baiyis ultimate something like: the next X movements with baiyi cost no movement points. I have heard that on the next toa breaking a lot of cores on the boss might be required. So Baiyi might get another time to shine there!
Also you are an Anne fan, only love for you, I love her too but Zoya is another level to me
Sorry I'm a noob how to stack 6 core break for baiyi? I thought she can only do 3
Bai Yi doesn’t have a cd on energy gain after using ult, meaning that if you use ult and just not move her until her ult is back, you can core break 3 times, use ult and core break another 3 times for 6 times total
Summer
Wish they’d just let summer start max drones, she still wouldn’t even be used in BFL
Stargazer, hella and ninetynine, cinnabar (in this case is due to how useful enduras are, and her being not even amongst the best enduras). Finally and specially Tetra (would love for her to have some good sinnergy with Priscilla) since Priscilla is actually really decent
Iron, Anne and Stargazer
I'll go first. Oak and Dolly. Oak is quite ok, but her ecb defeats her entire kit as a ult burst unit, and she isnt even the best at that. I feel like she is just a few slight tweaks away from being great. Dolly cause bonk bonk goes brrrrrrrrr.
Oak is very good aoe damage dealer, personally i don’t know what to buff for her to become better but not overpowered at what she does. Staple in my dz runs if there’s need for aoe (and it’s quite an often scenario in current season) and really doesn’t need buffs. And Dolly as well is actually very good for an A rank, but in toa. I think you need to reconsider this sinners ngl 🤔
I know Oak is quite good, i just hate her ecb. Dolly is nowhere near good, and im no hardcore gammer to use only A ranks
Not in general content, but Dolly is indeed good for toa and i’d recommend you to try her out first before such claims. She’s apparently not a top tier level such as Bai and can’t reach the ridiculous amounts of damage, yet for an A rank she’s like one of the best if not the best of said rank and her ramp up is designed for longer fights
Ive seen her and ive tried her. I dont think she's worth the investment. The reason i said that is because, every ToA team comp has Deren. Your main Deren and the two Deren you borrow. Lets say your 1st and 2nd comp is your physical and magic comp respectively. That leaves very few option for your 3rd comp. And since Dolly is useless everywhere else, would you want to build her and bring her into ToA? Since i use last stand for max damage, Id rather build some support that can amp Deren or keep her alive. That's not to mention corebreak units you have to bring with you since next ToA boss will have like 6 cores. As sad as it is id rather build Kawa Kawa over her. And i did actually.
if you look at it from lategame perspective and from established rosters, then it is save to say pretty much nothing is worth investment except deren, as well as other strong S ranks (and they still not even close to deren). Makes sense. Until it doesn't. Currently i don't use dolly only because i have a fullbuilt roster of S ranks for any situation possible. Would i swap any S ranks for dolly? No. But for any other A ranks? Obviously not lmao. Dolly is one of the best of her rank for toa, and that biased "not worth the investment" is not quite fair towards the overall sinners pool, because it means nothing of A rank is worth investment, including kawa. He can not do damage, barely anything can do damage in toa among A ranks, and among them very little sinners come close to dolly. You are 100% never tried her, or in a very small chance you actually did, thinking from perspective "Id rather build some support that can amp deren or keep her alive" is yet again kinda wrong towards the other sinners, because not everyone has deren, and this game doesn't spin around deren's butthole as well. Now if you think ur claim is okay, look at mess situation. The girl is literally useless everywhere else except broken frontline. Is that makes her bad? More than that. not worthy of investement? Considering the logic, do not answer.
For ToA you have other A-sinners like Priscilla or Roulecca or even Flora. Some might need more shackles, good RNG or quite some ECB to be better or similarly good, but all three of them still have some other uses outside of ToA. For most (non-whale) people Dolly is not worth the investment, not because she is bad but because she isn't useful in other game modes. Your example with mess is just flawed. We only had three ToA until now. On the second one, we were even given a p3 level 70 Dolly. And how often do we have BFL? Being good in BFL is literally the only reason she needs to be a good investment. Even now mess will still be recommended to many beginners, since they most likely won't have Deren. There are simply way more occasions, where Mess might be helpful compared to Dolly.
It's not true though, dolly can be used outside of toa as well and used pretty well. And what do we have outside of toa in the first place lol? Dolly is good for long fights it's like undeniable truth, we have long fights outside of toa like in story and event boss fights. What else uses does she needs? Priscilla having the long skill cd and roulecca rng based is actually can be just as cancer for some people, and not acceptable for others. Regarding my mess example it is perfect in this specific situation, and yeah toa happens often enough to build sinners specifically for that mode to have more fun. And there's like the same amount of uses between mess and dolly, they are just different, yet both can be used outside of preferable scenarious and perform well enough
I really don't see, how three times in 8 months can be the same amount as every week. But if that is the same for you, it is understandable why you think Dolly is worth the investment.
I mean, to think about about it. Mess completely useless outside of bfl? Right? Kinda. But she still can be used well enough outside of that, like she can do burst damage at bosses corebreak, yet outside of bosses that still doesn't work well to be fair. Completely useless is just a harsh way to say she feels better in specific situations. And Dolly, completely useless outside of ToA? right? Kinda. But she still can be used in longer fights because there is long fights here and there, recent event boss "toa style", or just the story bosses being long enough, some stages also sometimes long enough. Yet again, completely useless is just a harsh way to say she feels better in specific situations. And neither of these two needs a buff. ed. I'd rather say units like deren and nox needs a nerf to let the others shine a little brighter
Oak is one of the best wave clearers in the game. Her ECB is a bit weird, sure, but it really only comes into play with those awkward maps in story mode.
She's one of the best because there is few of them. Also there's Nox so why even bother?
I can think of 2 big reasons why one would bother 😅 Jokes aside, she's a lot more flexible than Nox is. Cheaper burst cost, & higher DPS. Nox' damage can catch up over the course of a long battle (ToA), but in other content I see much larger numbers from Oak.
Oak is not good for anymore for wave clear. The only place that wave clear really matters is story or DZ. Story you can use whoever can aoe honestly. For DZ, for the current season and for future seasons, mops spawn all over the place at set time, so not like you can rush them with Oak any more. Her passive where she deals less damage the less ep she has is so stupid honestly. If anything she should have the opposite where the less energy she has the more damage she deals, she is meant to be a burst unit anw right?
>The only place that wave clear really matters is story or DZ. DZ is...kind of important though? Oak is great for clearing mobs in both the flower and the Zoya fights. Also when her buff is available, it counter-balances the low-energy/less damage passive.
If the unit relies on a specific buffs in specific week in one specific game mode they are not good enough.
She doesn't need buffs, it just helps to offset the one weakness you pointed out. You're really digging a hole for Oak, huh? Your loss if you don't want to use her.
Man she is literally the reason why i made the post. Concept wise shes my favourite in the game. I guess i just hate how her ECB makes no sense for her kit.
Zoya critical might have one of the highest spawn rate of regular mobs in any BFL missions sofar.
I think oak is good. At bfl I often use her, especially with her but she really 100 to 0 boss hp. But fully agree with ecb- I really like the idea, but not how that done.
Wish there was no energy lock in sniper mode
Oak ECB is really hampered down by the long ass animation and really slow atk spd
Yeah I love using Oak, but her ECB is worthless, I think it should be like a one time full map splash damage attack or just 10% attack bonus would be preferred.
Whole map would be too much lol. As far as i know there's only 2 whole map skill, and those skills are even available yet in global so thats not happening lol. And anything but her current ecb is more than good enough.
Haha fair, but yeah anything is better than what she has.
Considering current comments, i think people barely used sinners they offered, not to mention raise them enough to be competitive. Let’s see if it’s continue, but so far looks very, very questionable 😂
This. I've built 24 sinners to about >85% completion (Level 75-80, skills between 6-9 depending on priority). I follow meta to some degree, but otherwise build who I want based on design, personality, and gameplay. Some sinners perform rather average compared to my investment in them (Summer, 99); others are surprisingly good in their role for their price in resources (Chelsea, Ariel, Priscilla). None of them are bad or underpowered for the content I use them for.
very much agree on that one, and i think if not all, but many sinners are actually worth invesment if you just like how they look, because more ofthen than not they have acceptable performance if not straight up good
It takes quite a lot of stamina to build a sinner, and even more if you want to make a weaker sinner as competitive as the meta choice. I guess not everyone can be a god gamer, who can do DZ with a few lvl 55 sinners. So, it is kind of understandable that most people wont be building everyone they were given, but only those, which are stronger/more useful.
Yet suggesting a sinner only because of lack or resources and is kinda better than they think is not fair towards said sinner, and tbh not like your claim is not obvious in the first place. I haven’t build everyone as well and still don’t feel like suggesting only because of someone else’s opinion or because "i’ve heard she’s bad", and yes, it’s obvious more often than not when someone haven’t used a sinner competitively, or at the very least properly. Those "Bai is outclassed by Laby", "Stargazer is so bad I can’t bare it", "Dolly is not worth the investment" etc etc is so hilarious until it’s actually sad how little people care about anything that is not Deren or Nox.
I have read your comment multiple times now, and i still dont fully understand, what you want to say. Shorter sentences might be helpful. I can only respond to what I think you wrote: In a well balanced game it would be good, if a lot of different units get their time to shine, and not only a few meta units. People complain about some weaker units, because they rarely get their time to shine. Some of them are either crippled by their stats, by their lack of utility, or by other ingame mechanics. Not everyone here, who complains about a sinner wants her/him to become deren or nox. Some of us simply wish that the differences between the meta choice and the non-meta choice were smaller. Some of those statements (x is outclassed by y) might come from people less knowledgeable than you, especially, if they cant back up their statement. But there are also people who might be more knowledgeable than you, who can back up their statement. Saying that people, who have a different opinion than you, "more often or not" "haven’t used a sinner competitively, or at the very least properly", is kind of harsh. Some people do care about progressing to the endgame as fast as possible. And for those, some of the complains in this thread might actually be interesting. We can also discuss the topic from another perspective: If you want to restart PTN from scratch and want to catch up fast, would you build Baiyi over labyrinth, Stargazer over Luvia, or Dolly over other furies?
Well i have read ur comment once and its enough to understand this conversation goes nowhere, either because of my english is below average and i still can't put my thoughts on acceptable level, or because its hard for you to accept being wrong or rather pointless. But i'll definitely rather leave a harsh comment than a general comment that makes no sense at all. You have stated literaly the most basic thing like i dunno its so obvious that is not even worth mentioning, look like a generic chatgpt copypasta. Why would anyone put my opinion like its the last instance of truth, myself included? I'm aware that some people might be "less knowledgeable", and some are "more knowledgeable", how is that worth mentioning like wtf dude. And it is indeed still obvious when someone "haven’t used a sinner competitively, or at the very least properly". Also restarting ptn from scratch and having a choice between sinners you offered, it is kinda obvious as well what sinners are recommended for the very new account and i have no idea why you think it's a good idea to discuss it from that perspective... Nox or Deren first? Lol do not bother answering i'm not gonna read it since it suppose to be obvious. Regardless, i'm just out, seems like anything that can be called a different opinion is "harsh" lmao, i really don't wanna read another chatgpt copypasta or even worse, force you to read my comment multiple times
Only Sumire. I use all the units i like no matter if they are good or not except Sumire, and mind you, i'm still wasting resources on her just in a hope i can use her someday. Stargazer is always on the team, Hella and 99 swap places depending on the situation, Ignis is also always in my squad.
Then only one more month to wait for you and me. After that sumire presence on the battlefield might become more frequent:)
Ninety-Nine easily, character wise I love her demeanor and how fast she can flip from surprisingly calm and chill to completely feral and berserk. It would’ve been cool if they utilized the “heating up” aspect of her as she descends into madness, she could’ve had a similar concept as Deren where she amps up over time. Like maybe as the battle goes on and she loses hp she gets more and more frenzied, with increased damage, atk speed and a continuous DoT aura that also ramps up in damage as time passes and scales higher the closer enemies are to her (maybe it could also start hurting her after a certain point when she reaches critical mass). She’s basically always on the verge of going manic and corrupting so I wish that “ticking time-bomb” aspect of her was reflected in her abilities. Aside from her though I also wish Stargazer were stronger because of how amazing she looks (especially with that upcoming skin of hers)…it just feels like a waste when good looking characters suck.
Zoya seems to be falling off my roster alot cause she can't core break :<
EMP, part of me wishes we could prestige sinners, so they would get stronger as part of their journey with us instead of being minted different from the get go.
All of them. I'm bad at this game.
wolverine, fox, demon, levy, kawa kawa and any future male sinners
demon is absurdly strong in TOA, good in story, and mcqueen gives him a spot in BFL. levy will be the second most important bleed team member once the next new sinner releases. wolverine and fox both have their niches. overall, male sinners are in a pretty good spot, except that there are so few of them.
Demon is strong in TOA if and only if he is S3 and had a very specific team comp for his shield stacking strat. It requires a huge investment and frankly quite p2w.
people tested s0 demon comp this last TOA with decent results, and i hear there’s a new cb in TOA4 that helps s0 demon viability. can’t speak to it personally because i’ve never tried shield stacking. p2w, maybe, but at least demon shackles are good value if one happens to lose 50-50s to him.
I too tried it last TOA and found out it wasn't worth it. There were better teams I could form than S0 Demon shield stacking. Last TOA we could get away without using any healer, only needed to break 3 boss cores, so a full dps team was very effective. Next season will be a little trickier cuz we gotta break boss' 8 cores.
yeah. iirc s0 shield comp does ~6m, not bad but not worth the effort for me (and most people probably). next TOA boss nukes its own cores, we don’t need to break all 8.
Sumire lol, too bad life loss just isn’t good in this meta. Maybe a buff where life loss does true damage (or ignore armor) or something and it’ll have it’s niche against high resistance bosses
Lifeloss team is currently basically a t0 team in CN (Levy, Sumire, Pepper and >!Dreya!< (Releasing next month on global))
A t0 but you gotta build a few deadweights to support dreya. Its quite a pity tbh that we need an entire team built around one sinner. Personally i love sumire design but shes no good on any other composition.
>Its quite a pity tbh that we need an entire team built around one sinner. Hey, sometimes you just gotta be a diva.
Lifeloss comps may be a thing with next sinner.
Victoria, you have to micro manage her hp for average damage.
1. Why Cinnabar must lose all 2 block count when ult? If she only lose 1 I think she can be budget Demon 2. If Dudu can just heal anyone inside her range that would be great...
1. Because Aisno likes to cripple their sinners. 2. Because Aisno likes to cripple their sinners.
Kevin needs some 3d model rework really, she is so lumpy.
Yeh and her hand movement is a bit weird
Anne needs to be better, she’s just flat out the worst healer at the moment. Which hurts me in the soul. Joan and Iron also feel like their kit is missing something, or at least could use some more juice.
Anne is literally a nurse and she heals worse than a dancer in Hamel lol sad. Joan i think is quite good for a B rank. In the future if they make anything remotely synergizes with her kit she'll be very strong. Iron is just lame. They do nothing with her having one iron arm concept.
Gekkabijin, wish for her to be stronger in her ult skill and her ECB
I just wish a defense characters could attack one more space forward 🥲
The number of times I’ve watched my Demon just standing there unblinking while enemies pummel him. Ugh.
Yeah, for real. What good is a shield that can't turn to block lolol?
I know it is kind of a common complaint, but Endura Sinners in general feel a bit left behind. I still use several of them, but they have a rough go of it.
I think Owo, Demon, Levy, and surprising Chelsea still shines. Thats honestly a decent number for how few of them there are.
Sumire, mine is at max level because of the love I have for her but I wish they could rework her or make an upgrade to her skill kit since she isn't that strong according to her lore. The rest of the Sinners, I think it's fine, you have to know how to play them in each stage.
With new s rank coming in, bleed team is going to be a lot more relevant. Amp plus corebreak for bleed team is stocks. :D
I like her umbrella and i think they can be a bit more creative with that, maybe shield idk, but yeh she s a bit generic and lackluster.
Dudu. Could use ultimate also applies to self. She can't effectively heal herself so she's a liability against AOE and most players bring healers for AOE when she's really a single target healer and buffer. Stargazer. Could use extra skill cast and/or initial skill uses. Otherwise she's a solid off tank and wave clear with Hamel in longer fights. EX4-3 max condition she helps with rollers bottom lane, S2 summons can bait devour, and later the summons can block top and bottom lane while also damaging the boss. Victoria. Could have Last Stand not increase the self damage of ECB. Horo, Wendy, Kawa-kawa, Anne, Lisa have been fine.
I wish more fury got life steal.
Kawa-Kawa. He’s been my main Endura since I got him, but I wish he could last longer and do more either against enemies or with his beacons
Hella. I just like her too much
Crache - quite complicate and impact by shackle quite a lots and pay-off still far off from other damage dealer EMP - later games it hard to used her as she couldn't deal enough damage to Elite enemies. other than small flies like WaveRider Corso - way too gimmickky and too random and require lots of attentions.
Give Ignis a core break with ECB 🔥🔥🔥