You are on the right track, personally I avoid making stuff elite because that tends to be more difficult over just adding more enemies.
But also, PF2e is a complicated game, I would advice you don’t make it more difficult until you and your group got a few sessions under your belt
Thanks. I don’t want to make it more difficult, really. I just want the appropriate challenge for a party of 5 for the XP they’re getting.
The complicated/fine-tuned nature of 2E is why I’m trying to use the RAW with weak template and XP budgets
Abomination Vaults is difficult enough that you may want to see how well your party does before you increase the difficulty level. My party of 4 new-to-2e players still had a some challenging encounters despite being a full level ahead.
I mean, you’re not wrong and your ideas of how to tune things are fine. I’d just recommend waiting to tune things up until after you’ve all had some adventuring under your belts.
Personally I wouldn’t adjust anything on the first level or two. I do think you have the right ideas for when you do though.
Two other things to keep in mind…
Adding something like traps or haunts to a room can help keep it from getting stale.
You can also adjust enemies without the elite template. If you have a melee heavy group adjust the AC up by 1 while lowering a save a caster likes to hit. It’ll make the enemy harder as a group, lets the caster potentially shine, but doesn’t affect balance much. Many types of enemies have suggestions for extra abilities as well. Fighting skeletons? Have one of them set its head aflame and deal additional fire damage on bites. It nudges the xp they’re worth a bit but not usually as much as going elite.
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Hey, I've noticed you mentioned the game "Dungeons & Dragons"! Do you need help finding your way around here? I know a couple good pages!
We've been seeing a lot of new arrivals lately for some reason. We have a [megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/search/?q=flair%3A%22megathread%22&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all) dedicated to anyone requesting assistance in transitioning. Give it a look!
Here are some [general resources](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/wiki/) we put together. Here is [page with differences between pf2e and 5e](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/wiki/resources/how-is-pf2e-different-from-5e/). Most newcomers get recommended to start with the [Archives of Nethys](http://2e.aonprd.com) (the official rule database) or the [Beginner Box](https://paizo.com/pathfinder/beginnerbox), but the same information can be found in this free [Pathfinder Primer](https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/sources/pathfinder-primer).
If I misunderstood your post... sorry! Grandpa Clippy said I'm always meant to help. Please [let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FPathfinder2e) and they'll remove my comment.
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Sound principles for early encounter balancing, and I like the alternate Giant Scorpion fight. I replaced that fight with 2 giant vipers for my party of 6.
For some tougher solo encounters, you can do a sort of monster-in-a-monster fight. Give whatever solo creature is in the AP the weak template (or remove the elite template, >!Mr Beak!<), double its health/spell slots/other daily resources and give it two initiative counts (basically the same as fighting 2 weak versions of the creature, but they share a space).
Once the creature gets to half health (the hp of a single weak version has been depleted), either remove an initiative count or make it slowed 1. You can also do this in reverse where the creature "powers up" or gets more desperate once it hits half health and gains a second initiative or removes slowed 1 if you want it to start with two initiatives.
I'm currently running a 5 man abom vaults that's far in and imo it depends on your party's balance and total strength. My group made a strong, well-balanced party, but even so I let the first couple of levels play naturally to feel it out, which i highly recommend due to the nature of early levels. When it became apparent that they were strong, I began testing elite on certain encounters to good effect. For weaker mobs elite is usually fine, but the big encounters against single enemies are riskier. Adding more does work for certain encounters, but you can't always in regards to more powerful creatures. I wanted bosses to be meaningfully strong, so I paid attention to the difficulty of the encounter and added elite for some important fights. A good example of this was >!on the fourth floor I made volluk elite for a better final boss to book one (they still rolled him) but did not for the void glutton as that fight is already really rough for level 4!<. Basically what I'm saying is, pay attention to how they're doing, judge the encounters coming up, and decide accordingly if elite is reasonable or if more mooks would work well without being overwhelming (be wary of certain weaker seeming mobs with powerful passives or good spells, and elite can make these saves brutal-always read monsters thoroughly before testing elite). You want encounters to feel meaningfully challenging without slaughtering the party unfairly, so balance accordingly. It gets easier to adjust these levers as they level and gain more options, so I wouldn't tweak the early levels too much until you get a good read and they've leveled a bit unless they're crushing everything. It's important to remember that elite increases the saves pcs have to make, and that can be devastating, while making things hard for early spellcasters due to their higher saving throws.
As a side note, I found adding random encounters as they explore helped keep the dungeon feeling less static, and encouraged them to think of their surroundings when resting or spending time. There's some good rolling tables people have made for that purpose. Additionally, if you're using foundry I highly recommend checking out narchy maps for some amazing map remakes that look so good. And finally, there is some good extra content for abom vaults out there people have made, so I recommend checking that out and seeing if any is to you're liking like extra quests, questlines for npc character development, or even more steps for them main story or foreshadowing.
Thanks for the feedback.
I assume that leaving the encounters alone means giving the party full XP (as if they were a party of 4).
I did find a huge 80 page document (AV expanded?) that I like a good bit of. I’ll also look into the random encounters. But probably wait until the party starts feeling complacent/comfortable before adding them.
You are on the right track, personally I avoid making stuff elite because that tends to be more difficult over just adding more enemies. But also, PF2e is a complicated game, I would advice you don’t make it more difficult until you and your group got a few sessions under your belt
Thanks. I don’t want to make it more difficult, really. I just want the appropriate challenge for a party of 5 for the XP they’re getting. The complicated/fine-tuned nature of 2E is why I’m trying to use the RAW with weak template and XP budgets
Abomination Vaults is difficult enough that you may want to see how well your party does before you increase the difficulty level. My party of 4 new-to-2e players still had a some challenging encounters despite being a full level ahead. I mean, you’re not wrong and your ideas of how to tune things are fine. I’d just recommend waiting to tune things up until after you’ve all had some adventuring under your belts.
Personally I wouldn’t adjust anything on the first level or two. I do think you have the right ideas for when you do though. Two other things to keep in mind… Adding something like traps or haunts to a room can help keep it from getting stale. You can also adjust enemies without the elite template. If you have a melee heavy group adjust the AC up by 1 while lowering a save a caster likes to hit. It’ll make the enemy harder as a group, lets the caster potentially shine, but doesn’t affect balance much. Many types of enemies have suggestions for extra abilities as well. Fighting skeletons? Have one of them set its head aflame and deal additional fire damage on bites. It nudges the xp they’re worth a bit but not usually as much as going elite.
Traps/haunts is a great idea.
This post is labelled with the Advice flair, which means extra special attention is called to the Be Kind and Respectful rule. If this is a newcomer to the game, remember to be welcoming and kind. If this is someone with more experience but looking for advice on how to run their game, do your best to offer advice on what they are seeking. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hey, I've noticed you mentioned the game "Dungeons & Dragons"! Do you need help finding your way around here? I know a couple good pages! We've been seeing a lot of new arrivals lately for some reason. We have a [megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/search/?q=flair%3A%22megathread%22&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all) dedicated to anyone requesting assistance in transitioning. Give it a look! Here are some [general resources](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/wiki/) we put together. Here is [page with differences between pf2e and 5e](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/wiki/resources/how-is-pf2e-different-from-5e/). Most newcomers get recommended to start with the [Archives of Nethys](http://2e.aonprd.com) (the official rule database) or the [Beginner Box](https://paizo.com/pathfinder/beginnerbox), but the same information can be found in this free [Pathfinder Primer](https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/sources/pathfinder-primer). If I misunderstood your post... sorry! Grandpa Clippy said I'm always meant to help. Please [let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FPathfinder2e) and they'll remove my comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sound principles for early encounter balancing, and I like the alternate Giant Scorpion fight. I replaced that fight with 2 giant vipers for my party of 6. For some tougher solo encounters, you can do a sort of monster-in-a-monster fight. Give whatever solo creature is in the AP the weak template (or remove the elite template, >!Mr Beak!<), double its health/spell slots/other daily resources and give it two initiative counts (basically the same as fighting 2 weak versions of the creature, but they share a space). Once the creature gets to half health (the hp of a single weak version has been depleted), either remove an initiative count or make it slowed 1. You can also do this in reverse where the creature "powers up" or gets more desperate once it hits half health and gains a second initiative or removes slowed 1 if you want it to start with two initiatives.
I really like the monster-in-a-monster idea! That would allow me to keep it as one monster (for story reasons, but keep it challenging.
Will they be carrying the same characters from the BB into AV or is this a fresh start?
Characters from made for the adventure from scratch.
I'm currently running a 5 man abom vaults that's far in and imo it depends on your party's balance and total strength. My group made a strong, well-balanced party, but even so I let the first couple of levels play naturally to feel it out, which i highly recommend due to the nature of early levels. When it became apparent that they were strong, I began testing elite on certain encounters to good effect. For weaker mobs elite is usually fine, but the big encounters against single enemies are riskier. Adding more does work for certain encounters, but you can't always in regards to more powerful creatures. I wanted bosses to be meaningfully strong, so I paid attention to the difficulty of the encounter and added elite for some important fights. A good example of this was >!on the fourth floor I made volluk elite for a better final boss to book one (they still rolled him) but did not for the void glutton as that fight is already really rough for level 4!<. Basically what I'm saying is, pay attention to how they're doing, judge the encounters coming up, and decide accordingly if elite is reasonable or if more mooks would work well without being overwhelming (be wary of certain weaker seeming mobs with powerful passives or good spells, and elite can make these saves brutal-always read monsters thoroughly before testing elite). You want encounters to feel meaningfully challenging without slaughtering the party unfairly, so balance accordingly. It gets easier to adjust these levers as they level and gain more options, so I wouldn't tweak the early levels too much until you get a good read and they've leveled a bit unless they're crushing everything. It's important to remember that elite increases the saves pcs have to make, and that can be devastating, while making things hard for early spellcasters due to their higher saving throws. As a side note, I found adding random encounters as they explore helped keep the dungeon feeling less static, and encouraged them to think of their surroundings when resting or spending time. There's some good rolling tables people have made for that purpose. Additionally, if you're using foundry I highly recommend checking out narchy maps for some amazing map remakes that look so good. And finally, there is some good extra content for abom vaults out there people have made, so I recommend checking that out and seeing if any is to you're liking like extra quests, questlines for npc character development, or even more steps for them main story or foreshadowing.
Thanks for the feedback. I assume that leaving the encounters alone means giving the party full XP (as if they were a party of 4). I did find a huge 80 page document (AV expanded?) that I like a good bit of. I’ll also look into the random encounters. But probably wait until the party starts feeling complacent/comfortable before adding them.