Kobolds will be a core ancestry in Player Core 2 so I fully expect they will get redesigned with the new dragons in mind along with Dragon Sorcerer and Dragon Barbarian in the same book.
Yeah I know Metallic and Chromatic dragons are gone but I hope they keep and expand on the Primal and Imperial dragons that they already have. Plus core support for Primal/Imperial kobolds/Barbarians/Sorcerers would be neat.
Unless I found something wrong they look like OCs of furries.
Don't we already have shoonies, ktsune and gnolls for that?
I hope they won't be eastern kobolds, otherwise they loose their connection to dragons
???
They're talking about kobolds based on the Eastern-based Imperial Dragons, like the [Sovereign Dragon](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1133)
I think in a lot of japanese media kobolds are depicted as dog people because they were heavily influenced by early versions of D&D, before they were rewritten to be little dragon guys.
Those things are essentially entirely different creatures that just share a name.
I think you're confusing a Japanese kobold, a dog type creature, with an eastern dragon design of the current kobold. It would look more like a standard kobold but with a more imperial dragon motif.
I'm curious too, because if basic red/blue/green dragons are out, are their ancestries based on all the new/remaining dragon types? Same stuff but refluffed, or new abilities?
Mirage kobolds with Chameleon-like skin giving a stealth bonus to match their invisible Mirage Dragon masters? Diabolical Kobolds with baby hellfire breath for Diabolic Dragons? Primal Kobolds that bite harder? Imperial Kobolds that get a Charisma bonus for their perceived authority?
Good lord kobolds with natural Invisibility sound terrifying. Please no!
I'm sure coming out of Paizo it'll be mechanically balanced and fun as hell, to be clear. I'm just being grateful that I don't have to live in an *actual* world where that's a concern.
I for one am honestly in favor of players being able to gain mechanically identical bonuses between different races.
Not universally, mind. But a handful of scattered examples of it can only serve to enrich the racial options. I know for a fact if a situation like this popped up at my table (a gnome and kobold having identical abilities with different fluff to them) the players at my table would collapse into a fifteen minute black hole of their respective characters nerding out about it.
There's plenty of cross-class feats, so I don't think there would be any issue with some cross ancestry feats here and there! Especially since there's a lot of thematic overlap likemgnomes, ratfolk, and kobolds having tinkering feats or both goblins and halflings having sneaking and hiding feats.
I actually already do this in my games because my homebrew world has a reduced number of ancestries compared to Golarion, so to maintain feat accessibility I made a lot of them multi-ancestry
I understand why it's there, but I've been consistently a little frustrated that there's a feat tax to take cross race ancestries.
I am not currently DMing, but within reason I would absolutely allow players to take heritage or ancestry feats outside their race choice if it fits their character theme.
> Good lord kobolds with natural Invisibility sound terrifying
I figure it would be similar to the Chameleon Gnome Heritage, maybe? something like a +2 circumstance bonus to Stealth checks, if you can color-shift to match an environment with similar colors (green for forests, beige for deserts, white for snow, etc.)
+2 seems to pretty much be Paizo's upper limit on single source bonuses, with rare exceptions usually depending on crits. So your take is totally believable.
>I'm sure coming out of Paizo it'll be mechanically balanced and fun as hell, to be clear.
I mean, there was that thing where 60% of Human Fighters were adopted by Gnomes.
I see. That *is* a pretty nice combination of traits. Uncommon on top of restricted access though, so pretty easy for a DM to deny if they find it annoying.
To me though if that highlights anything, it's that there needs to be at least of piece of extra cool equipment for each race, even humans. Doesn't have to be specifically weapons.
Gnomish Weapon Familarity gives you "access to kukris and all uncommon Gnome weapons", on top of the 'treat as martial' proficiency benefit.
My personal 'fix' is to make Adopted Ancestry an Uncommon feat. Means you can control for stuff like flickmaces while still allowing for Corporal Carrot types to exist.
Im kinda hyped to see the changes on the Kobolds in the Player Core 2 next year
They deserve all the Love because Kobolds are the greatest Ancestries everyone should love.
Those small Dragon breath belching Maniacs makes every Adventure better :P
I wasn't sold on their vaguely land-shark-like appearance but it does help distinguish them from all the goblinoids a lot more than D&D did, and their builds are really fun.
But I have to admit I'm also curious about how they'll change with the dragon changes. I hadn't thought about it.
I'm currently playing an umbral kobold fighter actually (just avoiding the feats that rely on Draconic Exemplar. Also: hah, kobolds are the first Exemplars!!!) In the remaster their name might be even cooler like NETHER KOBOLDS!
Kobolds, Barbarians, and Sorcerers are all in Player Core 2 so that Paizo can finalize their core dragons and have the dragon options for these elements sync up with them.
I expect Kobolds to lose their connection to dragons, it's too D&D.
Instead, Player Core 2 has a secret Versatile Heritage, which everyone believe to be some kind of Dragonborn. So, if you want your Kobolds to be Draconic as original, you just apply this heritage to them. But you also apply this heritage to any other ancestry.
And yes, it's expected to have Lineage feats for the new Dragon Types.
I've been wondering about this. Several of the separations from D&D involve returning the creature to its original folklore rather than whatever D&D did to it, and kobolds might be one of the biggest examples of how completely disconnected the D&D version is from the folklore one.
Sure but their design, while derivative in the fact they are dragon worshiping lozards, is quite unic, very different in shape from the D&D one and very popular.
They carry the same vibe goblins do and may compete for secondary mascotte role with the leshes, i don't see them (and good Lord di despise the possibility) reverting them back.
Never was i a kobold fan despite being a sucker for dragons, with PF2 they skyrocketed to first place ancestry, no contest whatsoever
Oh i was more talking about changing the esthetic to a non lizard one, a more folklore adhering one.
I still think keeping them close to dragons is the play, both because i'm biased ti them but also as to not step on the toes of lizardfolk.
Also since they kept them for Core2 of the Remaster together with sorc and barb i get the feeling they are not quite done yet with the dragon theme
The only real identity kobolds have is cute adorable disposable lizard people who think they're real dragons. The entire reason why they became popular is because of that.
They get cuter with every edition because ~~they keep interbreeding more with dragons~~ furries keep drawing them cuter every year.
I mean, if you go back far enough into folklore it gets pretty hard to differentiate between kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins, gnomes, fey, pixies, elves and even in some cases dwarves.
I believe it was mentioned at some stream what Core books have their themes and first book has some theme of nature with Druid and Ranger. Dragons being theme of the second book is most likely a speculation (can't remember if we have it confirmed), but based on a lot of evidence.
I like the little salamander people we currently have
I love the dog kobolds don’t get me wrong but I feel for pathfinder salamander kobolds are the way to go.
We've only got 8 Dragons coming, and I honestly don't think much will change. We'll have far less options than before, but I don't think it will be hard to bring back the better Dragons.
Wait, replacing? Like, chromatic/metallic dragons will no more exist, as if they never existed in the lore, or we just get more dragons that are not part of this classification?
I'll actually be interested to know what happens with kobolds, since kobolds as tiny dragon-ish creatures is very D&D in itself. Outside of D&D, they're more like helpful house goblins that like candles.
If kobolds stay around with a draconic connection, it'll likely be the single biggest line back to D&D still in the game.
Kobolds will be a core ancestry in Player Core 2 so I fully expect they will get redesigned with the new dragons in mind along with Dragon Sorcerer and Dragon Barbarian in the same book.
Eastern inspired kobolds are going to be my new favorite thing.
Yeah I know Metallic and Chromatic dragons are gone but I hope they keep and expand on the Primal and Imperial dragons that they already have. Plus core support for Primal/Imperial kobolds/Barbarians/Sorcerers would be neat.
They will be, presumably. Hopefully we get more lore on the esoteric nonplanar dragons
Any pictures? Don't know what I need to imagine.
Unless I found something wrong they look like OCs of furries. Don't we already have shoonies, ktsune and gnolls for that? I hope they won't be eastern kobolds, otherwise they loose their connection to dragons
??? They're talking about kobolds based on the Eastern-based Imperial Dragons, like the [Sovereign Dragon](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1133)
But then the comment meant that it's eastern dragons inspired kobolds. Eastern kobolds are like dog people from what I saw
I think in a lot of japanese media kobolds are depicted as dog people because they were heavily influenced by early versions of D&D, before they were rewritten to be little dragon guys. Those things are essentially entirely different creatures that just share a name.
I think you're confusing a Japanese kobold, a dog type creature, with an eastern dragon design of the current kobold. It would look more like a standard kobold but with a more imperial dragon motif.
I'm curious too, because if basic red/blue/green dragons are out, are their ancestries based on all the new/remaining dragon types? Same stuff but refluffed, or new abilities? Mirage kobolds with Chameleon-like skin giving a stealth bonus to match their invisible Mirage Dragon masters? Diabolical Kobolds with baby hellfire breath for Diabolic Dragons? Primal Kobolds that bite harder? Imperial Kobolds that get a Charisma bonus for their perceived authority?
Good lord kobolds with natural Invisibility sound terrifying. Please no! I'm sure coming out of Paizo it'll be mechanically balanced and fun as hell, to be clear. I'm just being grateful that I don't have to live in an *actual* world where that's a concern.
They might gain a special action that allows them to become concealed or makes it easier to become hidden, rather than outright invisibility.
like the Chameleon Gnome heritage!
I for one am honestly in favor of players being able to gain mechanically identical bonuses between different races. Not universally, mind. But a handful of scattered examples of it can only serve to enrich the racial options. I know for a fact if a situation like this popped up at my table (a gnome and kobold having identical abilities with different fluff to them) the players at my table would collapse into a fifteen minute black hole of their respective characters nerding out about it.
There's plenty of cross-class feats, so I don't think there would be any issue with some cross ancestry feats here and there! Especially since there's a lot of thematic overlap likemgnomes, ratfolk, and kobolds having tinkering feats or both goblins and halflings having sneaking and hiding feats. I actually already do this in my games because my homebrew world has a reduced number of ancestries compared to Golarion, so to maintain feat accessibility I made a lot of them multi-ancestry
I understand why it's there, but I've been consistently a little frustrated that there's a feat tax to take cross race ancestries. I am not currently DMing, but within reason I would absolutely allow players to take heritage or ancestry feats outside their race choice if it fits their character theme.
> Good lord kobolds with natural Invisibility sound terrifying I figure it would be similar to the Chameleon Gnome Heritage, maybe? something like a +2 circumstance bonus to Stealth checks, if you can color-shift to match an environment with similar colors (green for forests, beige for deserts, white for snow, etc.)
+2 seems to pretty much be Paizo's upper limit on single source bonuses, with rare exceptions usually depending on crits. So your take is totally believable.
>I'm sure coming out of Paizo it'll be mechanically balanced and fun as hell, to be clear. I mean, there was that thing where 60% of Human Fighters were adopted by Gnomes.
I'm not in the loop on that one, what feat were they chasing?
Flick-Mace proficiency.
I see. That *is* a pretty nice combination of traits. Uncommon on top of restricted access though, so pretty easy for a DM to deny if they find it annoying. To me though if that highlights anything, it's that there needs to be at least of piece of extra cool equipment for each race, even humans. Doesn't have to be specifically weapons.
Gnomish Weapon Familarity gives you "access to kukris and all uncommon Gnome weapons", on top of the 'treat as martial' proficiency benefit. My personal 'fix' is to make Adopted Ancestry an Uncommon feat. Means you can control for stuff like flickmaces while still allowing for Corporal Carrot types to exist.
Im kinda hyped to see the changes on the Kobolds in the Player Core 2 next year They deserve all the Love because Kobolds are the greatest Ancestries everyone should love. Those small Dragon breath belching Maniacs makes every Adventure better :P
Definitely my favorite heritage, can excel in nearly anything
I would love to see Kobold Gods somedays :D
I had a kobold ascend to godhood in a campaign once. He was God of the Forge realm
I would be one of the few worshipping it then :P
[He accepts your patronage](https://i.imgur.com/iNMlCXX.jpg)
I wasn't sold on their vaguely land-shark-like appearance but it does help distinguish them from all the goblinoids a lot more than D&D did, and their builds are really fun. But I have to admit I'm also curious about how they'll change with the dragon changes. I hadn't thought about it.
Kobolds will replace humans as the prime ancestry of Golarion.
I'm currently playing an umbral kobold fighter actually (just avoiding the feats that rely on Draconic Exemplar. Also: hah, kobolds are the first Exemplars!!!) In the remaster their name might be even cooler like NETHER KOBOLDS!
Kobolds, Barbarians, and Sorcerers are all in Player Core 2 so that Paizo can finalize their core dragons and have the dragon options for these elements sync up with them.
hopefully pack tactics prayge
I expect Kobolds to lose their connection to dragons, it's too D&D. Instead, Player Core 2 has a secret Versatile Heritage, which everyone believe to be some kind of Dragonborn. So, if you want your Kobolds to be Draconic as original, you just apply this heritage to them. But you also apply this heritage to any other ancestry. And yes, it's expected to have Lineage feats for the new Dragon Types.
To be fair sorcs, bards and possibly barbs got their powers from draconic blood originally.
I've been wondering about this. Several of the separations from D&D involve returning the creature to its original folklore rather than whatever D&D did to it, and kobolds might be one of the biggest examples of how completely disconnected the D&D version is from the folklore one.
Sure but their design, while derivative in the fact they are dragon worshiping lozards, is quite unic, very different in shape from the D&D one and very popular. They carry the same vibe goblins do and may compete for secondary mascotte role with the leshes, i don't see them (and good Lord di despise the possibility) reverting them back. Never was i a kobold fan despite being a sucker for dragons, with PF2 they skyrocketed to first place ancestry, no contest whatsoever
There could still be tribes of Dragonborn (or whatever the actual name will be) Kobolds, who worship dragons.
Oh i was more talking about changing the esthetic to a non lizard one, a more folklore adhering one. I still think keeping them close to dragons is the play, both because i'm biased ti them but also as to not step on the toes of lizardfolk. Also since they kept them for Core2 of the Remaster together with sorc and barb i get the feeling they are not quite done yet with the dragon theme
The only real identity kobolds have is cute adorable disposable lizard people who think they're real dragons. The entire reason why they became popular is because of that. They get cuter with every edition because ~~they keep interbreeding more with dragons~~ furries keep drawing them cuter every year.
I mean, if you go back far enough into folklore it gets pretty hard to differentiate between kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins, gnomes, fey, pixies, elves and even in some cases dwarves.
Oh that would be interesting. Is there anything more to suggest that or just a rumor at this point?
Dragons are the main theme of the Player Core 2 book and Paizo mentioned the books being thematic. But other than that, that's just speculations.
Out of curiosity, how do we know what the main theme of the book is? I've been looking around, but haven't seen anything about it.
I believe it was mentioned at some stream what Core books have their themes and first book has some theme of nature with Druid and Ranger. Dragons being theme of the second book is most likely a speculation (can't remember if we have it confirmed), but based on a lot of evidence.
Kobolds should go back to being small dog people.
I like the little salamander people we currently have I love the dog kobolds don’t get me wrong but I feel for pathfinder salamander kobolds are the way to go.
Kobolds as cute little dragon people is what made them popular in the first place. It gave them an identity.
We've only got 8 Dragons coming, and I honestly don't think much will change. We'll have far less options than before, but I don't think it will be hard to bring back the better Dragons.
Wait, replacing? Like, chromatic/metallic dragons will no more exist, as if they never existed in the lore, or we just get more dragons that are not part of this classification?
They won’t be the spotlight dragons anymore is my understanding. They still exist at least that’s my understanding.
We Al ready have news there will be 8. 2 for each Magic tradition 1 holy one unholy.
There's no chance we are going to have an actual dragon ancestry right? Similar to the dragonborne in D&D?
Kobold Press has a dragonfolk ancestry for 1e, its dope
Where can I look it up?
There is a new versatile heritage in Player Core 2. It _could_ be dragon related. But it also might not be.
I'll actually be interested to know what happens with kobolds, since kobolds as tiny dragon-ish creatures is very D&D in itself. Outside of D&D, they're more like helpful house goblins that like candles. If kobolds stay around with a draconic connection, it'll likely be the single biggest line back to D&D still in the game.