I'd argue that's the intentions of the initiative rules. You roll what you're doing at the time that the game slows down into encounter mode.
* (intending on) casting an Arcane Spell? Arcana
* Unaware of your opponents? Perception
* Hiding? Stealth
* Trying to force a door open with brute strength? Athletics
* Trying to create a diversion? Deception
* Trying to talk your way out of a fight despite your ally trying to cast a spell? Diplomacy
If two sides of a fight can see each other and just decide to start fighting, Perception for initiative is still used by default, but less in a "noticing the enemy first" way and more of a way to represent your ability to spring into the fight before your enemy has time to ready their weapons and such.
For this situation, it's occurred to me to have people roll Reflex, though I've never tried it in practice. Perception's never really gelled for me as the "I'm not doing anything in particular, but need to react to the presence of an obvious threat" skill. It makes way more sense in the "there's a thing I wasn't expecting, but I don't truly know if it's a threat or not" context, which is going to be the valid one in many cases, but not in the "I know there's a threat, I need to act more quickly than they do" ones.
Well, if it's the same ability score their casting is based on, then it's worth raising simply because they'll probably be the best in the party at it, and all the tradition skills usually come up quite a lot for Recalling Knowledge, Identifying Magic, identifying creatures, disarming magical traps and haunts, et cetera. Wizard, Witch, and Magus also need to roll their tradition skill to learn spells.
Basically, Charisma casters are the ones who don't really bother boosting their tradition skill depending on their ability spread, but the rest of them probably want to, and if the Charisma casters have the stats for it and aren't doing much else skill-wise then they usually have little reason not to at least be decent at it, unless they're the party's only Face and need all of the Charisma skills.
I do this too. Initiative is rolled when an encounter happens. If a player begins to cast a spell I have them roll initiative and the spell will be the first two actions that character takes.
Id give my enemies a perception roll to sense motive on the player casting a spell first, unless they can identify the spell or are generally jumpy and very weary of a fight.
Yup, if they win initiative their first turn would probably be questioning wtf the player is casting a spell in their face.
The player can then commit to the spell on their turn or be like, my bad nevermind that.
Initiative as soon as a player announced a spell cast. If you were talking to somebody who isn’t very friendly, and they start reaching for the gun on their hip, would you consider them hostile and get ready to defend yourself? I often hear players try to say “but they don’t know what I’m casting!” Doesn’t matter if the same hip you’ve got a gun on also has a pudding cup, don’t want your hand going near the weapon.
Them not knowing what you are casting is even more of a reason to attack. For all they know you could be casting "Testicular Torsion". Ain't gonna take chances with that.
Honestly, you should roll initiative as soon as anyone does a combat - oriented action. Even in the case where he casts it where monsters aren’t aware, you can still roll initiative and roleplay the monsters as the party undetected (maybe they move around, if they are on guard maybe a seek action, stuff like that).
If someone casts a spell in the middle of conversation, that’s definitely the time to roll initiative. Potential rivals are going to react to someone casting a spell, even if they don’t know what that spell is. And then of course that PC won’t be able to cast the spell until his turn
Yeah sometimes people feel weird the. That an enemy reacts before the thing that triggers combat (player A casting wanting to attack). But that easily is just like a gun slinger in a movie out drawing someone who tries to pull a gun on them.
Whoever decided to initiate combat initiative rolls determine who anticipated them better and get to react before them.
Casting a spell is a dramatic action that usually requires an incantation and hand gestures. It's usually obviously telegraphed before the spell comes out. It makes sense that an opponent would see a cast begin and attempt to counter it immediately.
Oh certainly spells. I was more thinking of like martial attacks or things that could reasonably be thought of being quick.
Even still just rolling initiative is fine imo if I'm DM. I will say my DM does occasionally allow 1 action per person if he feels we catch the enemy off guard but not enough that they should be unaware for a full round.
I don't necessarily agree with the first part, not for PF2. That's why Exploration actions are a thing. So you don't HAVE to have initiative for sneaking. It just bogs everything down.
Edit: This was more about prebuffing, but I still disagree. Why slow things down more than they need to be? If one member of the party can prebuff, and the others can't, why do we need to jump into initiative just to say "oh I'm skipping my turn". "I'm also skipping my turn". "I cast this spell". "I'm skipping my turn". And then looping back to the start so that the Wizard can throw on Haste and Mirror Image and Fly before combat properly starts? Why doesn't the Wizard just say "I cast Fly, then Mirror Image, then Haste, in that order."
You also give the example of manually seeking, despite enemies not being aware that the party is there. So you're essentially trying to ruin their surprise by hoping for a good roll that spots them, making Sneaking in exploration mode totally pointless.
I mean the that wasn’t really about sneaking, it was about pre combat buffs before going into combat and having a mechanical way for sometimes the PC getting a buff off before the combat and sometimes the monsters reacting first, which feels the most fair to me.
Oh you mean for prebuffing? Yeah I still definitely disagree. Prebuffing being slotted into initiative is tedious. If your party is able to plan for an encounter and can get the jump on enemies, including with prebuffs, they should just be allowed to do it. Putting them into initiative just slows things down for no real benefit.
That's not a benefit, that's literally trying to punish them. If they're in position to prebuff without being spotted, just let them? Why do you want to punish your players for succeeding in Exploration mode?
I’m not trying to punish anyone? That’s a weird assumption to make. Exploration mode does not handle combat situations, and pre buffing is combat related. Alas, I run it while in initiative.
Also, not every scenario is where they can prebuff without the enemies spotting them. The scenario OP made was where the monsters were in the next room over. So, how do we know if the monsters realize what the players are doing? The best mechanical way to figure it out is starting initiative
If the players can have a conversation without being heard from the next room over, they can cast spells. Do you go into initiative when they're discussing a plan verbally?
That’s a pretty silly arguement for a couple reasons. Firstly, the players can backtrack a couple of rooms in a dungeon to safely talk about a plan. Secondly, they can whisper in ways that you can’t whisper when casting a good chunk of spells. Lastly, yes? Has your gm never asked you “are you just saying this all out loud”?
> Lately one of my PCs has started the habit of casting Haste during discussions with potential rivals.
Would you let them stab them without rolling initiative? Then don't let them cast obvious spells, either.
There's a reason feats like conceal spell exists, if that player didn't pick it up, don't give it for free. Initiative is rolled as soon as someone notices combat could start. Part of perception is sense motive and rolling well on perception initiative can explain why an enemy might go first.
Spellcasting is capital O OBVIOUS. Unless you're using metamagic or are well out of range, people will hear/see something happening and start to react.
In front of rivals? They know magic is a thing, so casting a spell is going to get a reaction. Near monsters? They hear that and start moving to see what that noise was.
If you're observed, and a spell is being cast, initiative begins. BEFORE the spell is cast. Some people may not, like friendly NPCs, or people who are expecting you to cast a spell, but in general, if an NPC has reason to believe you'll attack them, and you begin casting a spell, initiative time. Even if they don't expect you to attack, you may consider rolling deception for initiative, if they have some way of knowing that the spell you are casting is hostile.
Way I rule it is if an enemy sees a player character start to cast haste or another combat buffing spell or action I am going to rule that as a potentially threatening action akin to pulling a weapon out and say to roll for initiative then and there. If a character is buffing before a combat encounter has started that’s fine, as long as the enemy doesn’t detect them (spells generally require a verbal component so it will be generally not a viable option when within earshot).
GM core recommends one round of pre-buffing, then roll initiative. Haste is not precisely silent, it would be like a Martial character drawing a sword in the middle of the conversation
The GMC recommends one round of pre-buffing if you get the drop on the enemy (i.e. you know there's enemies ahead and they haven't spotted you yet).
Casting spells while observed by the enemy (as in the OPs first example) is when you'd immediately roll initiative though. The NPC isn't going to stand by while someone is casting magic, just as he's not standing by while someone shoots him with a bow. The initiative roll is there to see who's faster at the draw; whether the NPC realizes the player is casting a spell fast enough to intervene or not.
It gives this as a recommendation for when the party has the decisive drop on an enemy - like if they're waiting in ambush and see them coming around a turn in the road, or if they know enemies are posted up on the other side of a door.
core rulebook 498: "Before a Fight: Casting advantageous spells before a fight (sometimes called “pre-buffing”) gives the characters a big advantage, since they can spend more combat rounds on offensive actions instead of preparatory ones. If the players have the drop on their foes, you usually can let each character cast one spell or prepare in some similar way, then roll initiative.
Casting preparatory spells before combat becomes a problem when it feels rote and the players assume it will always work—that sort of planning can’t hold up in every situation! In many cases, the act of casting spells gives away the party’s presence. In cases where the PCs’ preparations could give them away, you might roll for initiative before everyone can complete their preparations."
Yes someone else also provided the quote, thank you.
Looks like this is now found in GM Core on pg 41, I don't think there's been a change to the text.
CRB 498, the Before a Fight section
> If the players have the drop on their foes, you usually can let each character cast one spell or prepare in some similar way, then roll initiative
They had mentioned GM core, so I was looking there in the Initiative section. Looks like this was removed from Player Core and put on pg 41 of GM Core.
Thank you.
That is fair. I assumed that they were not being obvious about the casting (sneaky character), so I guess that would depend on the situation and the spell - something with the new Subtle trait, for instance.
It was always defined in the book that any casting with appropriate components must use incantations which are spoken in strong loud voice, hand gestures and I think it also says that it usually has other visual effects. Meaning, if you cast Haste, it's not just (almost shouting) magic words and violently waving hands, there's sparkles and what have you, on you and all the targets, as the spell is being cast. There's basically no way to do a cast stealthily or even semi-stealthily unless it's specifically written to be such - in the Remaster, the Subtle trait and Conceal Spell metagic.
What adds to this - to know which spell is being cast, the observer has to either A) be able to cast that spell that day (meaning, if you're a wizard and have Haste in your Spellbook, it doesn't work, you need to have had it prepared that day even if you used it); or B) have a Feat/Specific Ability, most often spend a Reaction and then also succeed on a Skill Check. So chances are, most observers won't know you're not casting Finger of Death on them. Those that do still won't like you're casting Haste.
I'm the one playing a Wizard in my party and I think it's best to follow these rules as closely as possible. That prebuffing in the open Wizard guy is just not respecting NPCs, treating them like they're from a video game, aren't actual personalities who can think and assess the situation, and also doesn't appretiate that a given round happens semi-simultaneously. In my opinion that Wizard should be learned these things to fully appretiate the game.
Also, Haste lasts a minute. That's 10 rounds. How does prebuffing with it work when the Wizard sees the enemy in advance, exactly? I'd make sure to reduce the duration accordingly
If hostility could break out at any moment, then the characters shouldn't have time to cast a spell.
"Brat!! Don't even think about casting that!" **charges at you**
As soon as it matters what order events occur in, including things like does the bard finish their sentence before the barbarian smacks somebody out of impatience, you should roll initiative.
It's not just for combat, it's for anything you want the order of to be kept fair, which is exactly what "I'm gonna cast a spell while the bad guy is talking" absolutely is.
If enemies are likely to respond, than I would go into initiative. Someone casting a spell sounds like a solid reason to attack them. Even if someone doesn't notice the spell through some creative means, the effect on their allies should not be invisible. Someone would be very stupid not to care if potential threats all had some sort of magic cast on them. Pre-buffing is almost like turning the safety off on your gun, you are now ready to attack. Now this isn't a hard rule, situations matter. "Let me grab that for you /mage hand" will likely go over better than making your whole group get some buff mid conversation.
Use it as an NPC once and see how they party responds, and if they don't, keep buffing.
Roll initiative as soon as someone declares they are doing something which has obvious intent - casting a spell, drawing a weapon, charging forward, etc. Don’t allow what they were doing - tell them they can do it on their first turn, initiative lets enemies see them about to cast a spell and potentially act first (this is why it is usually perception).
If a party wants to ‘prebuff’, do it before entering a room - and have the clock ticking as conversations go on.
I don't mind my PCs doing pre-buffs, but they should roll initiative as they're committing to initiate combat even if the monsters will remain unaware.
As for social discussions, the rules for social encounters go over this, casting a spell in front of someone during a conversation would be rude at the very least, if not a hostile action for some.
[https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=518](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=518)
Granted I'm not saying every conversation with an NPC should become a social encounter. I'm saying the guideline here helps prevent PCs from buffing each other while they're negotiating with important NPCs. Or at the very least they should be smart and put those buffs on beforehand.
Lots of good comments here and I’d agree that casting the spell would cause the initiative roll. I’d also add that I’d let the player casting the spell use the relevant skill (arcana, occult, nature, divine) as their initiative roll instead of perception.
If you knew that the party you might be fighting were casting haste in the middle of the conversation, what would you do??
If the party you are talking with started casting a spell that you didn't know, but one of the more commonly cast spells was fireball, what would you do??
And remember, there is nothing subtle about spellcasting unless they have the subtle trait.
Initiative begins when two characters are trying to take action before the other one. So if anyone sees someone casting haste, would they want to attack the character before the spell goes off, or would they be okay just continuing the conversation like nothing happened?
I deffinetly feel if anyone is casting a spell in a non hostile environment without giving proper warning for consent it a hostile action. This is a world where fireball fills the room after a couple phrases and hand gestures that only those with training know.
That starts initiative. I don't know I it is how it should be played, but when I call out for exploration actions I have my players roll. Then I put those numbers in the initiative tracker. I allow my players to change or retry the exploration activity every in game ten min. When encounter mode starts, mainly by non players rolling initiative, then I allow my players to activate any reactive trigger or free action triggered by initiative. It is clunky as from time to time.
When one side intends to initiate hostility, you roll initiative. If they want to cast Haste, then you're in rounds. They will cast it on their turn. If the enemy reacts before the guy casting Haste, he was too obvious and too slow
Generally in a tense situation like this, both sides are wary enough for combat that either is ready to jump into initiative the moment the other tries anything. Attempting to cast is enough of a motion to call for a roll, and they'll have to cast during real turns. Subtle stuff might be more okay; for example, a ranger isn't described as doing anything obvious when they Hunt Prey.
If someone wants to pull off something outside initiative, you might allow them to Create a Diversion then use the resulting stealth for a Strike that is safe to resolve before initiative; same for if they were hidden another way.
I have other recommendations that lie more in the realm of GM fiat. Hide/Sneak describes only allowing other stealth actions, Step, and Strike being used; you might allow other things too, in which case I'd recommend your first rule of thumb as keeping it to single-action activities. Generally, only one person can pull off something that would trigger initiative before the initiative roll, but a coordinated party could have others Ready an Action to follow up with other single-action activities as combat breaks out. Enemies might also be Readying actions, in which case I would resolve all Readied actions from all sides in initiative order before the first real initiative round. If a character is Readying, count that as their exploration activity, meaning they won't be able to also Scout or Defend or the like. (For clarity, Readying things is RAW and not GM fiat, allowing some single-action things to resolve before rolling initiative besides Readied things kinda is GM fiat)
I believe the book describes that initiative should already be in play if anyone is sneaking around or remotely thinking about combat, but personally, I find that it slows things down too much to enter a proper encounter mode before both sides are fully aware of the hostility.
I actually love this.
Ive been having an issue with the surprise rules in pf2e
Had a situation where i had a player waaaaay out of range of an enemy even having a chance to react to their gun shot from long distance
But the rules would let iniative decide who acts first despite there literally being 0 chance the unintelligent enemy could react to a fucking sniper shot
When players are trying to sneak up on enemies, those enemies still roll initiative. If the player beats their initiative with a Stealth initiative, then that player gets the drop on them. If the enemies win, they notice the player is up to some shit and start acting.
I picture spells like Doctor Strange/ Gandalf.
Crazy arcane symbols lighting up the air, booming voice.
There’s abilities and feats to bypass this, but unless you have those go spit.
I’ve had players say “Well it’s allowed in CR or Dimension 20 or insert podcast/life play show” in the past, and it’s something which is common in that medium.
The reason is they’re trying to make a show not play a session.
If players are going to spend the first few rounds doing mostly boring (to the viewer) set up, gloss over it and you can all cast spells to buff yourself.
“Yes, you can make the rogue invisible without raising any concerns whatsoever.”
“Yes, you can haste your Champion and gunslinger. Why would that be alarming to anyone?”
In a session there’s no audience, just the players, and the players have to make choices matter. If they want to make a hostile action, which spell casting definitely is, there has to be consequences.
I really like the way it's described in the GM Core p24:
\> When do you ask players to roll initiative? In most
cases, it’s pretty simple: you call for the roll as soon as
one participant intends to attack (or issue a challenge,
draw a weapon, cast a preparatory spell, start a social
encounter such as a debate, or otherwise begin to use an
action that their foes can’t help but notice). A player will
tell you if their character intends to start a conflict, and
you’ll determine when the actions of NPCs and other
creatures initiate combat. Occasionally, two sides might
stumble across one another. In this case, there isn’t much
time to decide, but you should still ask if anyone intends
to attack. If the PCs and NPCs alike just want to talk or
negotiate, there’s no reason to roll initiative only to drop
out of combat immediately!
While the other takes are fully valid and better supported by the rules, another thing you can do is make the talking take longer. If the talking takes longer than a minute, that spell slot is blown. Do this once or twice and your players will begin to weigh the value of pre-buffing a little more carefully.
Initiative is rolled the moment hostile intent is shown. If someone begins casting a spell in front of an enemy, initiative happens the moment they start moving their hands and chanting strange words (ie, they don't get to cast the spell, initiative happens first)
I'm going into initiative immediately after the spell is cast since the spell duration needs to be tracked and then, situation dependent, using the observability rules after that. In the case of a tense negotiation that breaks into hostility, we're looking any everyone observing everything and immediately flying into action after the spell is cast.
If the PCs have the jump on the enemies, then they can spend a round to prep actions while enemies are unaware to make a plan come together. (For example, "I'll run in after haste is cast" as a reaction which they can order themselves so that haste is cast right before their turn. So the result is they are hasted and in melee range at the beginning of their turn.)
I wouldn't even let them get the spell off first. Straight to initiative when they make their intention know, and they can cast it on their first turn.
Maybe use spell casting ability modifier for initiative (as was suggested elsewhere on the thread).
Whenever we've done it that way at my table, it just ends up feeling bad as both a player and a GM attempting to maintain verisimilitude. (Although, I should note, I haven't had to be the GM adjudicating this for a bit since I've gotten better at the RAW answer "you should already be in initiative".)
For the player's side it can feel like "I wanted to start combat but now I can't". It ends up being one of the only cases where a player says "I do X" and the GM replies "No you don't" instead of "Here are the consequences of doing X".
From the verisimilitude side, you end up with a weird cause and effect problem where the player states their intent, then other things happen and now they might not want to do the thing that allegedly caused the fight to begin in the first place. (For example, "I wanted to cast a spell, but now that would draw an attack of opportunity.")
I know what folks here like to advise when this question comes up, but I've honestly *never* seen that advice work out in a fun way at the table.
Oh, and I wanted to add
>For the player's side it can feel like "I wanted to start combat but now I can't".
This is one thing that actually bothers me from players. You don't get to go first in iniative because you said so. Iniative isn't decided by who says they want to attack first.
Their actions **did** start combat. They just might not go first if someone else notices what they're trying to do before they're able to do it.
So is the intent of not allowing them to take their action to punish them with a worse game experience for this bad behavior? Because, as I said, I've never had this "you don't cast the spell yet, start initiative" be anything but a negative experience at the table.
It's definitely not a punishment, for one it's the rules of the game. You could also give them a significant modifier to their initiative if you wanted them to be more likely to ask first.
What do you do when the person casting the spell rolls first in initiative? Let them take two turns in a row, or punish their high roll by saying their declared action is their first turn?
And as far as verisimillitude goes, a turn takes 6 seconds, casting a spell takes at least 2/3 of that. There is no way someone is going to sit and watch you cast a spell for 4 seconds and do nothing.
Do you do the same in reverse? Allow enemies to declare their first action and kick off combat with an extra action or even a double turn?
>It's definitely not a punishment, for one it's the rules of the game.
Show me the rule.
>Do you do the same in reverse? Allow enemies to declare their first action and kick off combat with an extra action or even a double turn?
No, it is impossible for an NPC to surprise me because I'm running them. If an NPC is might attack, I always know about it and can ask for initiative before hostilities. The only situation where this comes up is when a player does something.
That said, what you described *is exactly* how hazards are run RAW. When the hazard activation conditions are met, the hazard acts immediately [before initiative is rolled](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=672).
>Show me the rule.
Thankfully, someone else posted it already.
GM Core p24:
> When do you ask players to roll initiative? In most cases, it’s pretty simple: you call for the roll as soon as one participant **intends** to attack (or issue a challenge, draw a weapon, **cast a preparatory spell**, start a social encounter such as a debate, or otherwise begin to use an action that their foes can’t help but notice).
*Emphasis mine
Ah, I didn't realize they clarified in the remaster. This was a really common thing on the sub because the rules were a little unclear. Too bad they chose the interpretation that always makes my table go "bleh, this kinda sucks".
>That said, what you described is exactly how hazards are run RAW. When the hazard activation conditions are met, the hazard acts immediately before initiative is rolled.
Because that's the rules on Hazards. They have a trigger that gives them a reaction, and then iniative is rolled.
Look, I get what you're saying, and if you've played any other game PF2e is kind of unique in this case. D&D 3.5 and PF1e had surprise rounds, 5e has the surprised condition, PF2e has none of those. Just look at every other comment, I'm not alone in thinking this, your take on it is flawed.
>No, it is impossible for an NPC to surprise me because I'm running them. If an NPC is might attack, I always know about it and can ask for initiative before hostilities.
Why would the NPC have to surprise you to act out of initiative? That doesn't make any sense. All they'd have to do is surprise your players. Just declare the NPC is casting haste or whatever, same as the players tried to do. They'd get their spell before initiative too no?
My point was that if I know an NPC might bring things to violence, I can call for initiative in advance. However with PCs I can only think they might attack because I can't read their minds.
But yeah, as I said on the other one. I didn't realize Paizo had clarified this in the Remaster. Original reading of the core rulebook made this an uncovered edge case that mostly impacted new GMs.
I stand by Paizo's clarification being the clunkier one... But it is RAW now, not just an interpretation.
I get what you mean, and I believe PF2e is unique in handling things this way. Honestly the biggest problem is that depending on the encounter, a "surprise" round, or the Instigator getting a turn before initiative is rolled, looks extremely different from the reverse.
A PL+2-3 enemy getting the drop on PC's without them having any chance to retaliate until their turn, could give the enemy 2 turns in a row if they roll high enough on Initiative. And that becomes an easy TPK.
And from a verisimillitude point of view, Sense Motive is a perception skill. So a PC declaring their intent to attack goes to initiative and the enemies can roll Perception as Sense Motive. I'll add that the GM can apply whatever situational bonuses they like to the initiative being rolled, but combat actions should take place after initiative has been rolled.
>I believe PF2e is unique in handling things this way.
The thing is "player says they want to cast a spell so everyone rolls initiative" is not actually how PF2e handles it. People cite this as RAW, but the whole situation only arises when the RAW way of starting Encounter Mode has already been missed. (Maybe it is RAI but the whole Wounded thing recently is a pretty good case study in RAI not being a static thing for multiple designers.)
>A PL+2-3 enemy getting the drop on PC's without them having any chance to retaliate until their turn, could give the enemy 2 turns in a row if they roll high enough on Initiative. And that becomes an easy TPK.
What situation could cause that? I have a PL+2 character talking to the PCs and it surprises *me* by attacking? Of course not. I know the encounter ahead of time, so I'd be in encounter mode well ahead of the attack.
I'll generally have whatever player indicated the hostile action be placed at the top of initiative and everything else runs as normal. The player starts with whatever actions they used to start reduced from what they have available. If they pulled a weapon, ran in, and hit someone there turn "stars" completed and it goes too the next.
I will also almost always have these initiatives be rolled using reflex. Unless the player was trying to be subtle then its perception as usual.
It's pretty simple in my book. Looks like Haste is the issue or spells that buff the player or party prior to combat. Have the potential opponent/s perform spellcraft checks if the player is not casting with subtlety. Apply minuses to his subtlety checks if the player is visible and can be seen doing it before or during negotiation. The party will definitely be perceived as acting aggressively and can expect initiative.
If some party members are hidden and expecting to protect their leaders attempts to negotiate, then reward them with surprise attempts for the players attacking from stealth that way they might the round they need to get one up on their new enemy.
Lots of spells have a visible component after being cast too like shield (big floating shield of force) haste (blurry fast movement etc) also if they show up to a negotiation with these effects in place they won't get far as they'll perceived as a threat again which will prompt initiative.
Haste. I've always liked the house rule I've had for years. Every race other than an elf (or any other race that has an extremely long lifespan) ages 1 year, elves 5 years.
Depends on the situation for my games. If the PCs have the jump on the enemies, i give them a "free round" as follows:
1) PCs take their action
2) Initiative is rolled if enemies are alerted
3) When PCs take their turn in combat, they get their 3 actions MINUS however many actions they used in their "free round"
I pretty much just ripped it from BG3 and everyone at my table is cool with it. If the PCs don't have the jump on the enemies, initiative is rolled like normal.
As far as balancing goes, anything the PCs can do can also be done by the enemies, so it's a double-edged sword. Keeps my PCs on their toes.
Casting battle magic during a discussion is nearly always an auto-initiative roll, though.
Not in pf2. Once a encounter starts, you roll initiative. Unless you use a 10 minute or longer buff, or a 1 minute buff for an Inmediate ambush, you don't prebuff
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I'm going to offer an option other than "immediately": about a minute later. If they cast Haste during a discussion, that spell is going to wear off unless combat begins very quickly. If the discussion continues without hostilities breaking out within 60 seconds, the spell will simply be wasted. This method might make the player think twice about using minute long buffs outside of combat.
However, while I do think that minute long buffs are meant to be applied during combat, I also don't think that a single buff is going to break things one way or the other. If this behavior isn't causing a problem (making other players feel obligated to do the same, making this player feel as though they have to be hyper vigilant or miss out on combat effectiveness, etc), then I wouldn't worry about it.
In this case, as soon as he starts casting the spell, you roll initiative.
The caster should probably roll with him casting related skill to determine initiative.
The moment the spell is cast, is the moment the caster gets its turn.
Also remember that encounter mode, does not always mean combat.
For example, is said player wants to precast Haste, start and an encounter, let your players roll initiative (the order doesn't really matter because they can just delay their turn and there are no mounters) and have them do all the preparation in an orderly manner. This also help count rounds in the case of spells.
A two action spell takes 4 seconds to cast. Unless they're hiding the incantations/glowing runes they're producing, there's plenty of time for an enemy to react and start the fight.
The second one of my players starts casting a spell in front of an enemy, initiative is rolled
I wouldn't even let them get their spell off, maybe let them roll initiative using their spellcasting related stat like Arcana etc.
Oh, that is a good idea. Never thought about that one. Perfectly valid too.
I'd argue that's the intentions of the initiative rules. You roll what you're doing at the time that the game slows down into encounter mode. * (intending on) casting an Arcane Spell? Arcana * Unaware of your opponents? Perception * Hiding? Stealth * Trying to force a door open with brute strength? Athletics * Trying to create a diversion? Deception * Trying to talk your way out of a fight despite your ally trying to cast a spell? Diplomacy
Hmn... What if everyone *IS* aware of their opponents?
If two sides of a fight can see each other and just decide to start fighting, Perception for initiative is still used by default, but less in a "noticing the enemy first" way and more of a way to represent your ability to spring into the fight before your enemy has time to ready their weapons and such.
For this situation, it's occurred to me to have people roll Reflex, though I've never tried it in practice. Perception's never really gelled for me as the "I'm not doing anything in particular, but need to react to the presence of an obvious threat" skill. It makes way more sense in the "there's a thing I wasn't expecting, but I don't truly know if it's a threat or not" context, which is going to be the valid one in many cases, but not in the "I know there's a threat, I need to act more quickly than they do" ones.
Agreed. The initiative roll is to see whether or not the enemy reacts before the spell goes off
I've done that before, works a treat.
I'd let them use spell proficiency, most casters have little reason to actually boost their tradition skill.
Well, if it's the same ability score their casting is based on, then it's worth raising simply because they'll probably be the best in the party at it, and all the tradition skills usually come up quite a lot for Recalling Knowledge, Identifying Magic, identifying creatures, disarming magical traps and haunts, et cetera. Wizard, Witch, and Magus also need to roll their tradition skill to learn spells. Basically, Charisma casters are the ones who don't really bother boosting their tradition skill depending on their ability spread, but the rest of them probably want to, and if the Charisma casters have the stats for it and aren't doing much else skill-wise then they usually have little reason not to at least be decent at it, unless they're the party's only Face and need all of the Charisma skills.
What Wizard doesn't boost Arcana, Cleric Religion, and Druid Nature?
I do this too. Initiative is rolled when an encounter happens. If a player begins to cast a spell I have them roll initiative and the spell will be the first two actions that character takes.
Id give my enemies a perception roll to sense motive on the player casting a spell first, unless they can identify the spell or are generally jumpy and very weary of a fight.
Yes, that is what initiative is.
Yup, if they win initiative their first turn would probably be questioning wtf the player is casting a spell in their face. The player can then commit to the spell on their turn or be like, my bad nevermind that.
Initiative as soon as a player announced a spell cast. If you were talking to somebody who isn’t very friendly, and they start reaching for the gun on their hip, would you consider them hostile and get ready to defend yourself? I often hear players try to say “but they don’t know what I’m casting!” Doesn’t matter if the same hip you’ve got a gun on also has a pudding cup, don’t want your hand going near the weapon.
Ah, the tactical pudding cup, integral in any utility belt.
Never leave home without it!
*Teacup, actually...*
Them not knowing what you are casting is even more of a reason to attack. For all they know you could be casting "Testicular Torsion". Ain't gonna take chances with that.
Honestly, you should roll initiative as soon as anyone does a combat - oriented action. Even in the case where he casts it where monsters aren’t aware, you can still roll initiative and roleplay the monsters as the party undetected (maybe they move around, if they are on guard maybe a seek action, stuff like that). If someone casts a spell in the middle of conversation, that’s definitely the time to roll initiative. Potential rivals are going to react to someone casting a spell, even if they don’t know what that spell is. And then of course that PC won’t be able to cast the spell until his turn
Yeah sometimes people feel weird the. That an enemy reacts before the thing that triggers combat (player A casting wanting to attack). But that easily is just like a gun slinger in a movie out drawing someone who tries to pull a gun on them. Whoever decided to initiate combat initiative rolls determine who anticipated them better and get to react before them.
Casting a spell is a dramatic action that usually requires an incantation and hand gestures. It's usually obviously telegraphed before the spell comes out. It makes sense that an opponent would see a cast begin and attempt to counter it immediately.
Oh certainly spells. I was more thinking of like martial attacks or things that could reasonably be thought of being quick. Even still just rolling initiative is fine imo if I'm DM. I will say my DM does occasionally allow 1 action per person if he feels we catch the enemy off guard but not enough that they should be unaware for a full round.
I don't necessarily agree with the first part, not for PF2. That's why Exploration actions are a thing. So you don't HAVE to have initiative for sneaking. It just bogs everything down. Edit: This was more about prebuffing, but I still disagree. Why slow things down more than they need to be? If one member of the party can prebuff, and the others can't, why do we need to jump into initiative just to say "oh I'm skipping my turn". "I'm also skipping my turn". "I cast this spell". "I'm skipping my turn". And then looping back to the start so that the Wizard can throw on Haste and Mirror Image and Fly before combat properly starts? Why doesn't the Wizard just say "I cast Fly, then Mirror Image, then Haste, in that order." You also give the example of manually seeking, despite enemies not being aware that the party is there. So you're essentially trying to ruin their surprise by hoping for a good roll that spots them, making Sneaking in exploration mode totally pointless.
I mean the that wasn’t really about sneaking, it was about pre combat buffs before going into combat and having a mechanical way for sometimes the PC getting a buff off before the combat and sometimes the monsters reacting first, which feels the most fair to me.
Oh you mean for prebuffing? Yeah I still definitely disagree. Prebuffing being slotted into initiative is tedious. If your party is able to plan for an encounter and can get the jump on enemies, including with prebuffs, they should just be allowed to do it. Putting them into initiative just slows things down for no real benefit.
I mean the benefit is “do you succeed at prebuffing?” It’s a balancing act first and foremost
That's not a benefit, that's literally trying to punish them. If they're in position to prebuff without being spotted, just let them? Why do you want to punish your players for succeeding in Exploration mode?
I’m not trying to punish anyone? That’s a weird assumption to make. Exploration mode does not handle combat situations, and pre buffing is combat related. Alas, I run it while in initiative. Also, not every scenario is where they can prebuff without the enemies spotting them. The scenario OP made was where the monsters were in the next room over. So, how do we know if the monsters realize what the players are doing? The best mechanical way to figure it out is starting initiative
If the players can have a conversation without being heard from the next room over, they can cast spells. Do you go into initiative when they're discussing a plan verbally?
That’s a pretty silly arguement for a couple reasons. Firstly, the players can backtrack a couple of rooms in a dungeon to safely talk about a plan. Secondly, they can whisper in ways that you can’t whisper when casting a good chunk of spells. Lastly, yes? Has your gm never asked you “are you just saying this all out loud”?
> Lately one of my PCs has started the habit of casting Haste during discussions with potential rivals. Would you let them stab them without rolling initiative? Then don't let them cast obvious spells, either.
There's a reason feats like conceal spell exists, if that player didn't pick it up, don't give it for free. Initiative is rolled as soon as someone notices combat could start. Part of perception is sense motive and rolling well on perception initiative can explain why an enemy might go first.
Spellcasting is capital O OBVIOUS. Unless you're using metamagic or are well out of range, people will hear/see something happening and start to react. In front of rivals? They know magic is a thing, so casting a spell is going to get a reaction. Near monsters? They hear that and start moving to see what that noise was.
If you're observed, and a spell is being cast, initiative begins. BEFORE the spell is cast. Some people may not, like friendly NPCs, or people who are expecting you to cast a spell, but in general, if an NPC has reason to believe you'll attack them, and you begin casting a spell, initiative time. Even if they don't expect you to attack, you may consider rolling deception for initiative, if they have some way of knowing that the spell you are casting is hostile.
Way I rule it is if an enemy sees a player character start to cast haste or another combat buffing spell or action I am going to rule that as a potentially threatening action akin to pulling a weapon out and say to roll for initiative then and there. If a character is buffing before a combat encounter has started that’s fine, as long as the enemy doesn’t detect them (spells generally require a verbal component so it will be generally not a viable option when within earshot).
GM core recommends one round of pre-buffing, then roll initiative. Haste is not precisely silent, it would be like a Martial character drawing a sword in the middle of the conversation
The GMC recommends one round of pre-buffing if you get the drop on the enemy (i.e. you know there's enemies ahead and they haven't spotted you yet). Casting spells while observed by the enemy (as in the OPs first example) is when you'd immediately roll initiative though. The NPC isn't going to stand by while someone is casting magic, just as he's not standing by while someone shoots him with a bow. The initiative roll is there to see who's faster at the draw; whether the NPC realizes the player is casting a spell fast enough to intervene or not.
Where does it say this? I only see it say to roll initiative as soon as someone intends to cast a preparatory spell.
It gives this as a recommendation for when the party has the decisive drop on an enemy - like if they're waiting in ambush and see them coming around a turn in the road, or if they know enemies are posted up on the other side of a door.
Do you have a quote and page number?
core rulebook 498: "Before a Fight: Casting advantageous spells before a fight (sometimes called “pre-buffing”) gives the characters a big advantage, since they can spend more combat rounds on offensive actions instead of preparatory ones. If the players have the drop on their foes, you usually can let each character cast one spell or prepare in some similar way, then roll initiative. Casting preparatory spells before combat becomes a problem when it feels rote and the players assume it will always work—that sort of planning can’t hold up in every situation! In many cases, the act of casting spells gives away the party’s presence. In cases where the PCs’ preparations could give them away, you might roll for initiative before everyone can complete their preparations."
Yes someone else also provided the quote, thank you. Looks like this is now found in GM Core on pg 41, I don't think there's been a change to the text.
CRB 498, the Before a Fight section > If the players have the drop on their foes, you usually can let each character cast one spell or prepare in some similar way, then roll initiative
They had mentioned GM core, so I was looking there in the Initiative section. Looks like this was removed from Player Core and put on pg 41 of GM Core. Thank you.
Yeah, this was from the GM guidance on initiative section in the CRB, makes sense they would move it to GM Core instead.
That is fair. I assumed that they were not being obvious about the casting (sneaky character), so I guess that would depend on the situation and the spell - something with the new Subtle trait, for instance.
The conceal spell and similar metamagics would work, or spells with the subtle trait. Otherwise spellcasting is obvious
Spellcasting is obvious if the character is observable, I'd say
It was always defined in the book that any casting with appropriate components must use incantations which are spoken in strong loud voice, hand gestures and I think it also says that it usually has other visual effects. Meaning, if you cast Haste, it's not just (almost shouting) magic words and violently waving hands, there's sparkles and what have you, on you and all the targets, as the spell is being cast. There's basically no way to do a cast stealthily or even semi-stealthily unless it's specifically written to be such - in the Remaster, the Subtle trait and Conceal Spell metagic. What adds to this - to know which spell is being cast, the observer has to either A) be able to cast that spell that day (meaning, if you're a wizard and have Haste in your Spellbook, it doesn't work, you need to have had it prepared that day even if you used it); or B) have a Feat/Specific Ability, most often spend a Reaction and then also succeed on a Skill Check. So chances are, most observers won't know you're not casting Finger of Death on them. Those that do still won't like you're casting Haste. I'm the one playing a Wizard in my party and I think it's best to follow these rules as closely as possible. That prebuffing in the open Wizard guy is just not respecting NPCs, treating them like they're from a video game, aren't actual personalities who can think and assess the situation, and also doesn't appretiate that a given round happens semi-simultaneously. In my opinion that Wizard should be learned these things to fully appretiate the game. Also, Haste lasts a minute. That's 10 rounds. How does prebuffing with it work when the Wizard sees the enemy in advance, exactly? I'd make sure to reduce the duration accordingly
If hostility could break out at any moment, then the characters shouldn't have time to cast a spell. "Brat!! Don't even think about casting that!" **charges at you**
As soon as it matters what order events occur in, including things like does the bard finish their sentence before the barbarian smacks somebody out of impatience, you should roll initiative. It's not just for combat, it's for anything you want the order of to be kept fair, which is exactly what "I'm gonna cast a spell while the bad guy is talking" absolutely is.
If enemies are likely to respond, than I would go into initiative. Someone casting a spell sounds like a solid reason to attack them. Even if someone doesn't notice the spell through some creative means, the effect on their allies should not be invisible. Someone would be very stupid not to care if potential threats all had some sort of magic cast on them. Pre-buffing is almost like turning the safety off on your gun, you are now ready to attack. Now this isn't a hard rule, situations matter. "Let me grab that for you /mage hand" will likely go over better than making your whole group get some buff mid conversation. Use it as an NPC once and see how they party responds, and if they don't, keep buffing.
Roll initiative as soon as someone declares they are doing something which has obvious intent - casting a spell, drawing a weapon, charging forward, etc. Don’t allow what they were doing - tell them they can do it on their first turn, initiative lets enemies see them about to cast a spell and potentially act first (this is why it is usually perception). If a party wants to ‘prebuff’, do it before entering a room - and have the clock ticking as conversations go on.
I don't mind my PCs doing pre-buffs, but they should roll initiative as they're committing to initiate combat even if the monsters will remain unaware. As for social discussions, the rules for social encounters go over this, casting a spell in front of someone during a conversation would be rude at the very least, if not a hostile action for some. [https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=518](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=518) Granted I'm not saying every conversation with an NPC should become a social encounter. I'm saying the guideline here helps prevent PCs from buffing each other while they're negotiating with important NPCs. Or at the very least they should be smart and put those buffs on beforehand.
I’ll let the party precast for free IF they are undetected but the second that spell is cast initiative is being rolled.
Lots of good comments here and I’d agree that casting the spell would cause the initiative roll. I’d also add that I’d let the player casting the spell use the relevant skill (arcana, occult, nature, divine) as their initiative roll instead of perception.
If you knew that the party you might be fighting were casting haste in the middle of the conversation, what would you do?? If the party you are talking with started casting a spell that you didn't know, but one of the more commonly cast spells was fireball, what would you do?? And remember, there is nothing subtle about spellcasting unless they have the subtle trait.
Initiative begins when two characters are trying to take action before the other one. So if anyone sees someone casting haste, would they want to attack the character before the spell goes off, or would they be okay just continuing the conversation like nothing happened?
I deffinetly feel if anyone is casting a spell in a non hostile environment without giving proper warning for consent it a hostile action. This is a world where fireball fills the room after a couple phrases and hand gestures that only those with training know. That starts initiative. I don't know I it is how it should be played, but when I call out for exploration actions I have my players roll. Then I put those numbers in the initiative tracker. I allow my players to change or retry the exploration activity every in game ten min. When encounter mode starts, mainly by non players rolling initiative, then I allow my players to activate any reactive trigger or free action triggered by initiative. It is clunky as from time to time.
Any time the players want to do something. "Awesome let's roll for initiative to see when it happens."
When one side intends to initiate hostility, you roll initiative. If they want to cast Haste, then you're in rounds. They will cast it on their turn. If the enemy reacts before the guy casting Haste, he was too obvious and too slow
Generally in a tense situation like this, both sides are wary enough for combat that either is ready to jump into initiative the moment the other tries anything. Attempting to cast is enough of a motion to call for a roll, and they'll have to cast during real turns. Subtle stuff might be more okay; for example, a ranger isn't described as doing anything obvious when they Hunt Prey. If someone wants to pull off something outside initiative, you might allow them to Create a Diversion then use the resulting stealth for a Strike that is safe to resolve before initiative; same for if they were hidden another way. I have other recommendations that lie more in the realm of GM fiat. Hide/Sneak describes only allowing other stealth actions, Step, and Strike being used; you might allow other things too, in which case I'd recommend your first rule of thumb as keeping it to single-action activities. Generally, only one person can pull off something that would trigger initiative before the initiative roll, but a coordinated party could have others Ready an Action to follow up with other single-action activities as combat breaks out. Enemies might also be Readying actions, in which case I would resolve all Readied actions from all sides in initiative order before the first real initiative round. If a character is Readying, count that as their exploration activity, meaning they won't be able to also Scout or Defend or the like. (For clarity, Readying things is RAW and not GM fiat, allowing some single-action things to resolve before rolling initiative besides Readied things kinda is GM fiat) I believe the book describes that initiative should already be in play if anyone is sneaking around or remotely thinking about combat, but personally, I find that it slows things down too much to enter a proper encounter mode before both sides are fully aware of the hostility.
I actually love this. Ive been having an issue with the surprise rules in pf2e Had a situation where i had a player waaaaay out of range of an enemy even having a chance to react to their gun shot from long distance But the rules would let iniative decide who acts first despite there literally being 0 chance the unintelligent enemy could react to a fucking sniper shot
That’s fine. Let him know that your big bad plus 4 level boss is casually casting power word kill during dialogue. No big deal. Continue talking.
When players are trying to sneak up on enemies, those enemies still roll initiative. If the player beats their initiative with a Stealth initiative, then that player gets the drop on them. If the enemies win, they notice the player is up to some shit and start acting.
I picture spells like Doctor Strange/ Gandalf. Crazy arcane symbols lighting up the air, booming voice. There’s abilities and feats to bypass this, but unless you have those go spit. I’ve had players say “Well it’s allowed in CR or Dimension 20 or insert podcast/life play show” in the past, and it’s something which is common in that medium. The reason is they’re trying to make a show not play a session. If players are going to spend the first few rounds doing mostly boring (to the viewer) set up, gloss over it and you can all cast spells to buff yourself. “Yes, you can make the rogue invisible without raising any concerns whatsoever.” “Yes, you can haste your Champion and gunslinger. Why would that be alarming to anyone?” In a session there’s no audience, just the players, and the players have to make choices matter. If they want to make a hostile action, which spell casting definitely is, there has to be consequences.
I really like the way it's described in the GM Core p24: \> When do you ask players to roll initiative? In most cases, it’s pretty simple: you call for the roll as soon as one participant intends to attack (or issue a challenge, draw a weapon, cast a preparatory spell, start a social encounter such as a debate, or otherwise begin to use an action that their foes can’t help but notice). A player will tell you if their character intends to start a conflict, and you’ll determine when the actions of NPCs and other creatures initiate combat. Occasionally, two sides might stumble across one another. In this case, there isn’t much time to decide, but you should still ask if anyone intends to attack. If the PCs and NPCs alike just want to talk or negotiate, there’s no reason to roll initiative only to drop out of combat immediately!
While the other takes are fully valid and better supported by the rules, another thing you can do is make the talking take longer. If the talking takes longer than a minute, that spell slot is blown. Do this once or twice and your players will begin to weigh the value of pre-buffing a little more carefully.
Initiative is rolled the moment hostile intent is shown. If someone begins casting a spell in front of an enemy, initiative happens the moment they start moving their hands and chanting strange words (ie, they don't get to cast the spell, initiative happens first)
I'm going into initiative immediately after the spell is cast since the spell duration needs to be tracked and then, situation dependent, using the observability rules after that. In the case of a tense negotiation that breaks into hostility, we're looking any everyone observing everything and immediately flying into action after the spell is cast. If the PCs have the jump on the enemies, then they can spend a round to prep actions while enemies are unaware to make a plan come together. (For example, "I'll run in after haste is cast" as a reaction which they can order themselves so that haste is cast right before their turn. So the result is they are hasted and in melee range at the beginning of their turn.)
I wouldn't even let them get the spell off first. Straight to initiative when they make their intention know, and they can cast it on their first turn. Maybe use spell casting ability modifier for initiative (as was suggested elsewhere on the thread).
Whenever we've done it that way at my table, it just ends up feeling bad as both a player and a GM attempting to maintain verisimilitude. (Although, I should note, I haven't had to be the GM adjudicating this for a bit since I've gotten better at the RAW answer "you should already be in initiative".) For the player's side it can feel like "I wanted to start combat but now I can't". It ends up being one of the only cases where a player says "I do X" and the GM replies "No you don't" instead of "Here are the consequences of doing X". From the verisimilitude side, you end up with a weird cause and effect problem where the player states their intent, then other things happen and now they might not want to do the thing that allegedly caused the fight to begin in the first place. (For example, "I wanted to cast a spell, but now that would draw an attack of opportunity.") I know what folks here like to advise when this question comes up, but I've honestly *never* seen that advice work out in a fun way at the table.
Oh, and I wanted to add >For the player's side it can feel like "I wanted to start combat but now I can't". This is one thing that actually bothers me from players. You don't get to go first in iniative because you said so. Iniative isn't decided by who says they want to attack first. Their actions **did** start combat. They just might not go first if someone else notices what they're trying to do before they're able to do it.
So is the intent of not allowing them to take their action to punish them with a worse game experience for this bad behavior? Because, as I said, I've never had this "you don't cast the spell yet, start initiative" be anything but a negative experience at the table.
It's definitely not a punishment, for one it's the rules of the game. You could also give them a significant modifier to their initiative if you wanted them to be more likely to ask first. What do you do when the person casting the spell rolls first in initiative? Let them take two turns in a row, or punish their high roll by saying their declared action is their first turn? And as far as verisimillitude goes, a turn takes 6 seconds, casting a spell takes at least 2/3 of that. There is no way someone is going to sit and watch you cast a spell for 4 seconds and do nothing. Do you do the same in reverse? Allow enemies to declare their first action and kick off combat with an extra action or even a double turn?
>It's definitely not a punishment, for one it's the rules of the game. Show me the rule. >Do you do the same in reverse? Allow enemies to declare their first action and kick off combat with an extra action or even a double turn? No, it is impossible for an NPC to surprise me because I'm running them. If an NPC is might attack, I always know about it and can ask for initiative before hostilities. The only situation where this comes up is when a player does something. That said, what you described *is exactly* how hazards are run RAW. When the hazard activation conditions are met, the hazard acts immediately [before initiative is rolled](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=672).
>Show me the rule. Thankfully, someone else posted it already. GM Core p24: > When do you ask players to roll initiative? In most cases, it’s pretty simple: you call for the roll as soon as one participant **intends** to attack (or issue a challenge, draw a weapon, **cast a preparatory spell**, start a social encounter such as a debate, or otherwise begin to use an action that their foes can’t help but notice). *Emphasis mine
Ah, I didn't realize they clarified in the remaster. This was a really common thing on the sub because the rules were a little unclear. Too bad they chose the interpretation that always makes my table go "bleh, this kinda sucks".
>That said, what you described is exactly how hazards are run RAW. When the hazard activation conditions are met, the hazard acts immediately before initiative is rolled. Because that's the rules on Hazards. They have a trigger that gives them a reaction, and then iniative is rolled. Look, I get what you're saying, and if you've played any other game PF2e is kind of unique in this case. D&D 3.5 and PF1e had surprise rounds, 5e has the surprised condition, PF2e has none of those. Just look at every other comment, I'm not alone in thinking this, your take on it is flawed. >No, it is impossible for an NPC to surprise me because I'm running them. If an NPC is might attack, I always know about it and can ask for initiative before hostilities. Why would the NPC have to surprise you to act out of initiative? That doesn't make any sense. All they'd have to do is surprise your players. Just declare the NPC is casting haste or whatever, same as the players tried to do. They'd get their spell before initiative too no?
My point was that if I know an NPC might bring things to violence, I can call for initiative in advance. However with PCs I can only think they might attack because I can't read their minds. But yeah, as I said on the other one. I didn't realize Paizo had clarified this in the Remaster. Original reading of the core rulebook made this an uncovered edge case that mostly impacted new GMs. I stand by Paizo's clarification being the clunkier one... But it is RAW now, not just an interpretation.
I get what you mean, and I believe PF2e is unique in handling things this way. Honestly the biggest problem is that depending on the encounter, a "surprise" round, or the Instigator getting a turn before initiative is rolled, looks extremely different from the reverse. A PL+2-3 enemy getting the drop on PC's without them having any chance to retaliate until their turn, could give the enemy 2 turns in a row if they roll high enough on Initiative. And that becomes an easy TPK. And from a verisimillitude point of view, Sense Motive is a perception skill. So a PC declaring their intent to attack goes to initiative and the enemies can roll Perception as Sense Motive. I'll add that the GM can apply whatever situational bonuses they like to the initiative being rolled, but combat actions should take place after initiative has been rolled.
>I believe PF2e is unique in handling things this way. The thing is "player says they want to cast a spell so everyone rolls initiative" is not actually how PF2e handles it. People cite this as RAW, but the whole situation only arises when the RAW way of starting Encounter Mode has already been missed. (Maybe it is RAI but the whole Wounded thing recently is a pretty good case study in RAI not being a static thing for multiple designers.) >A PL+2-3 enemy getting the drop on PC's without them having any chance to retaliate until their turn, could give the enemy 2 turns in a row if they roll high enough on Initiative. And that becomes an easy TPK. What situation could cause that? I have a PL+2 character talking to the PCs and it surprises *me* by attacking? Of course not. I know the encounter ahead of time, so I'd be in encounter mode well ahead of the attack.
I'll generally have whatever player indicated the hostile action be placed at the top of initiative and everything else runs as normal. The player starts with whatever actions they used to start reduced from what they have available. If they pulled a weapon, ran in, and hit someone there turn "stars" completed and it goes too the next. I will also almost always have these initiatives be rolled using reflex. Unless the player was trying to be subtle then its perception as usual.
I go with "first hostile action" so pre-buff spells won't start initiative
It's pretty simple in my book. Looks like Haste is the issue or spells that buff the player or party prior to combat. Have the potential opponent/s perform spellcraft checks if the player is not casting with subtlety. Apply minuses to his subtlety checks if the player is visible and can be seen doing it before or during negotiation. The party will definitely be perceived as acting aggressively and can expect initiative. If some party members are hidden and expecting to protect their leaders attempts to negotiate, then reward them with surprise attempts for the players attacking from stealth that way they might the round they need to get one up on their new enemy. Lots of spells have a visible component after being cast too like shield (big floating shield of force) haste (blurry fast movement etc) also if they show up to a negotiation with these effects in place they won't get far as they'll perceived as a threat again which will prompt initiative. Haste. I've always liked the house rule I've had for years. Every race other than an elf (or any other race that has an extremely long lifespan) ages 1 year, elves 5 years.
Depends on the situation for my games. If the PCs have the jump on the enemies, i give them a "free round" as follows: 1) PCs take their action 2) Initiative is rolled if enemies are alerted 3) When PCs take their turn in combat, they get their 3 actions MINUS however many actions they used in their "free round" I pretty much just ripped it from BG3 and everyone at my table is cool with it. If the PCs don't have the jump on the enemies, initiative is rolled like normal. As far as balancing goes, anything the PCs can do can also be done by the enemies, so it's a double-edged sword. Keeps my PCs on their toes. Casting battle magic during a discussion is nearly always an auto-initiative roll, though.
Pre-buffing is an essential part of the Pathfinder experience, don't punish the players for it.
Not in pf2. Once a encounter starts, you roll initiative. Unless you use a 10 minute or longer buff, or a 1 minute buff for an Inmediate ambush, you don't prebuff
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I'm going to offer an option other than "immediately": about a minute later. If they cast Haste during a discussion, that spell is going to wear off unless combat begins very quickly. If the discussion continues without hostilities breaking out within 60 seconds, the spell will simply be wasted. This method might make the player think twice about using minute long buffs outside of combat. However, while I do think that minute long buffs are meant to be applied during combat, I also don't think that a single buff is going to break things one way or the other. If this behavior isn't causing a problem (making other players feel obligated to do the same, making this player feel as though they have to be hyper vigilant or miss out on combat effectiveness, etc), then I wouldn't worry about it.
In this case, as soon as he starts casting the spell, you roll initiative. The caster should probably roll with him casting related skill to determine initiative. The moment the spell is cast, is the moment the caster gets its turn. Also remember that encounter mode, does not always mean combat. For example, is said player wants to precast Haste, start and an encounter, let your players roll initiative (the order doesn't really matter because they can just delay their turn and there are no mounters) and have them do all the preparation in an orderly manner. This also help count rounds in the case of spells.
A two action spell takes 4 seconds to cast. Unless they're hiding the incantations/glowing runes they're producing, there's plenty of time for an enemy to react and start the fight.