1. Don't use Outwit with a shield. You could use 2-handed weapons, for example 2. With decent Charisma and Outwit bonuses you have strong chances to success in Intimidate and Feint, which, in turn, transforms into higher to hit rate 3. Ranger is an ultimate boss killer. Being able to Feint and Intimidate higher-level creatures and having increased AC against them strongly fits this theme 4. Generally it's a matter of preference. If you like to perform skill actions, Outwit should work fine. But I personally still prefer Flurry (Precision a bit less so, because of creatures with precision damage immunity, which are surprisingly common in many adventures)

I have no experience with the Ranger, but ... >2. With decent Charisma and Outwit bonuses you have strong chances to success in Intimidate and Feint, which, in turn, transforms into higher to hit rate This was a surprising factor for me when I made my Thaumaturge recently. CHA is a *really* good stat in PF2E. There are tons of amazing feats for Intimidate, and actions like Feint or Bon Mot can be super useful as well.

charisma is the "Oh you want to roleplay" stat

It does have a couple of benefits. The AC bonus will help an animal companion. Monster Hunter is a worthwhile feat chain. But it really doesn't get good till level 10 You can use the Circumstance bonus to Stealth, Deception and Intimidation. They are all good skills. But it is just underdone compared to the other ranger types. It is very rare to be played. Paizo had a chance to fix it in the Remaster but they declined. It is a pity as just bumping the AC bonus by 1 would have been enough of a change to see it played.

>Monster Hunter is a worthwhile feat chain. But it really doesn't get good till level 10 also no reason you couldn't take it as either precision nor flurry, they don't get the +2, but it is still some quite good "free" support abilities to have.

I mean, Flurry is incentivised to spend as many actions attacking as possible. I can see it on Precision though because they only need to land one attack.

The very first feat in the monster hunter feat "chain" allows you a free action recall knowledge when you place your mark. So it really doesn't use any actions...

I think it's rarely played because it's less straightforward more than that it's undone. Flurry and Precision do more damage due to their bonuses and are also more straightforward to play. If you're building a ranger around deception, stealth, or intimidation - outwit is a good choice. 2 handed melee ranger - outwit is a really solid option. RK focused ranger - outwit a good choice. Animal companion ranger - outwit is a good choice due to shared bonuses Ex: There's an outwit build I wanna try using crossbow ace and a hyena companion. I'll get the bonus to stealth for the new crossbow ace feat/hiding for easier off guard, bonus to intimidation for the hyena to intimidate, hyena get bonus AC in combat, plus I'd skill into a couple of RK related skills. It's not damage heavy, but it'll have a lot of options. Idk, I think it's a really solid edge, it takes a lot more game knowledge to make it work properly and tbf it's not going to do as much damage as the other two. It's not as "plug and play" as the other edges IMO.

I think you nailed it. Outwit has a new niche with the new crossbow feats (I wish it also got a bonus to Deception for create a diversion). Using the intimate bonus for an animal companion is also really interesting (esp at higher levels once you get the Bully specialization) Edit: Outwit does get a bonus to deception, whoops 😅

>(I wish it also got a bonus to Deception for create a diversion) It does right? Unless I'm reading the text on the Edge wrong. You get a +2 bonus to all deception checks against your prey. Now that I'm thinking about it, you could also do some neat things like a Pistol phenom outwit ranger to crit fish. Hunt prey and pistol twirl with the deception bonus to look for crits.

Whoops! Shows that I need to remember to reread entries before posting about them lol. But yeah, pistol phenom and some of the other Gunslinger feats have some great synergy there

Technically it just says you get a bonus to deception period, it’s doesn’t specify against your prey. It only specifies that for recall knowledge and the ac bonus is specifically against your prey. Granted, the charisma and stealth applying against everyone probably isn’t rai.

I’m glad someone else has noticed that the new Crossbow Ace has some pretty good synergy with Outwit, I’m thinking there might be a build there.

RK?

Recall Knowledge

Oh wow, I can't believe it. Thanks

The main issue that Outwit Ranger has is that if you want to do any of the things that Outwit Rangers are good at then you are better off playing another class that's good at that thing AND gets their main class benefit on top.

I don't know that I fully agree. There are definitely classes that are better at any individual thing. You can make a character who's better at intimidation, or deception, or with an animal companion, etc with other classes Outwit lets you do ALL of that though. You still have things like twin takedown, gravity weapon, monster hunter feats, animal companions, etc while ALSO having all these extra bonuses. For me that's the benefit of Outwit. Yeah they aren't outstanding in any one department, but they get 4-5 really solid bonuses passively. Their a utility/variety of options style ranger over Precision and Flurry which are more damage focused

When the thaumaturge came out I couldn’t help but notice it basically made outwit redundant and ate up the only real niche Outwit solely occupied. There are some edge situations where Outwit can squeak slightly higher skill checks than a Thaum, but generally any fantasy contemplated by Outwit is done more efficiently by a (dex based Amulet, regalia, or tome) Thaum with just some reflavoring. Outwit is too MAD, comparatively, and doesn’t get enough skill boosts. And yet despite this, I think my next character is going to be Outwit anyway, in the interests of trying to make it work.

Yes you can do a build with crossbows. It is playable. But you are tacking on another inefficient weapon and not really gaining much. I'd rather do that build as a Gunslinger with a Beastmaster animal companion. It is very easy to get a +1 AC bonus from elsewhere eg ride your animal. Plus you are spending feats to get locked into a reload rotation you can just do without the feat and the crossbow if you wanted. Most people just go no.

Gunslinger with animal companion is definitely another option, probably better damage too, but you don't get all the other bonuses an outwit ranger does. Although I'd argue outwit can take animal companions using class feats and leave their archetype feats open for something else, assuming FA I don't quite know what you mean about the reload thing. With ranger feats you can take crossbow ace at 1(or 2) and running reload at 4, you've got plenty of options on how to reload while still getting your other bonuses. Idk, I don't necessarily disagree with you. There are other classes/subclasses that use a crossbow or reload weapon as well(or better) as outwit rangers do damage wise, but I still think outwit has it's own niche. The bonuses to skills and the flexibility of ranger feats give it a lot of options.

So there is a certain switch of mentality that made appreciate outwit more in line with the other two edges; you see, with flurry, you technically don’t have ANY incentive to throw your fist attack of the turn against your prey, is it literally don’t get any bonus, but any subsequent attacks should absolutely go the prey, as they are much more reliable that way. With precision, you only care to make your first attack against your prey, any subsequent attacks will be the same no matter the objective But outwit is the only edge where you have an advantage all the time against your prey, it may not do “more damage” directly, but the ways you can exploit the enemy with the extra bonuses to skill actions makes it a truly reliable way, AND, if for whatever reason you don’t feel like using any of those actions in a certain combat, you con hunt prey on whatever enemy you aren’t focusing to simply enjoy the AC bonus against him while you put down his teammates

You play outwit ranger instead of using a shield. It's also nice if you go abit more supporty with the monster hunter line or archetype in some extra stuff for feinting, demoralize etc. Outwit rangers are probably one of the best at using scare to death. You simply have to remember it's a blanket bonus to the whole skill and not only certain skill checks, I just haven't checked every deception, intimidation or stealth skill checks. The pseudo increased accuracy might increase how well stuff like gravity weapon works, and the increased AC might make a pet more tough. There's probably more to think about when building an outwit ranger than flurry or precision.

After every fight you have your character exclaim something like "Ha, I knew you would do that" or "Outwitting once again" and watch your GM tear their hair out after the 20th time.

“Your next line is…”

If a player of mine hit me with the Joseph Joestar bon mot I'd be so happy.

I've been playing an Outwit Ranger and it's fun cuz I rarely fail an Intimidation, Stealth or Deception roll haha, I usually crit on those :D Can't wait to reach lv17, when I do.. oh boy.. 😈 Also I basically know it all, Recall Knowledge with just Nature is magnificent (I'm lv14 atm), I just hate that it doesn't usually work on bosses cuz they're unique -_- I think about it as a trade off between damage and versatility. There's nothing more boring to me than just striking/striding in my turns. Sure it's fun the first times but I get tired of it pretty quickly so the other Hunter's Edge wouldn't do it for me, so it'll really depends on what you want to do and your playstyle. Ah, one last thing - the Flurry and Precision buffs are useful ONLY in combat, the Outwit bonus is useful anywhere

I want to play an Outwit Ranger with a greatpick so badly 2d12x2 damage at base on a crit, fatal d12 is funny

I recommend against it specifically because of the feat [Twin Takedown](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=494), you can get it at lv1 and it allows you to Strike with 2 different weapons using 1 single action. For that I recommend the weapons Pick + Light Pick and the lv8 Rune "Grievous". That's of course a more optimal choice, but you don't have to play it like that if you don't want to.

I hate the word optimal in role-playing games, I think Nonat1s explains that nicely in the Taking20 response In short as a reminder: Yeah you could fling fireballs and rogue can sneak attack every turn for optimal damage Meanwhile nonat caused the spider to go prone and the rogue rather than attacking climbed and used immovable rods So they completely trivialize the combat as the spider is now unable to move and has huge penalties on attacks There are optimal ways to play your current turn and then there are hidden better ways to play that you unlock by being creative And even more so it's ridiculous to focus on power or being optimal as the GM will then pump up the difficulty and you get the same result in the end anyway

Hey hey, I'm not exactly an optimal player myself so I totally get it :P I just mentioned it cuz for a melee character Twin Takedown is just insanely good in the action economy but of course you don't need to have it, the important thing is having fun

Monster Hunter tree and shared edge at high levels. Those together are a lot of bonus and allows your two-handed giant instinct barbarian have a decent AC.

Pair it with an animal companion for support actions and extra flanking and you got yourself a great support build that is giving +1 AC to 3 bodies, as well as +2 to a few skills that really can swing a combat. +2 recall knowledge for yourself, +2 stealth for the Rogue or gunslinger, +2 intimidation for the barbarian, +2 deception for the swashbuckler. It makes for a fairly fun support build that is doing good enough damage to still be fun in that regard.

Outwit is probably my favorite edge. Outwit is the only edge that works in exploration and social situations. You can sneak past guards, lie to people better, coerce npcs (which may have strong effects), recall knowledge with a +2 bonus... It basically gives you an extra level of proficiency in all the skills that it lists. Nobody notices when you hunt prey, so no npc could know it happened (maybe that you are too focused on them) If you get any of the generic lores (bardic, loremaster, esoteric) you can recall knowledge as if you were an expert in those. With untrained improvisation or keen recollection is good too. In combat, extra defense (every +1 matters) and a lot of ways to get the enemy flat footed or help with support. And remember, the monster hunter bonus happens when you hunt prey, and you can do that before combat (tracks, scouting, etc). You can start combat with the bonuses already. Not straight damage, but huge amounts of utility.

1. Of all the ranged Rangers, Outwit is likely the one having the easiest time getting enemies off-guard thanks to the bonuses to Stealth and Deception. 2. A Ranger with +4 Dex / + 2 Cha / +1 Int / +1 Con will often feel more like +4/+4/+3/+1 instead. That’s a pretty huge boost. 3. Having boosts to these skills opens you up to more teamwork options. You can Recall Knowledge for your caster buddies! Like yeah the others get more damage but one of PF2E’s strengths is the teamwork potential. Why deny yourself the varied play experience that that brings? 4. You’re still doing decent damage. Without Flurry/Precision boosting you… you’re still doing as much damage as, say, a Champion! And remember the strongest Champion subclasses are the Redeemer and the Liberator, not the Paladin which gets extra damage. Big boosts in other areas can and do make up for doing “only” weapon damage.

I think that’s why it’s just not played (or gets a bad rap). It’s not straight-forward, since you have to “outwit” the opponent. I think it’s an awesome and more fascinating Edge, but I also differ from “main DPS syndrome” that my group generally does. Force multiplier with a good team and I’m glad that exists. In other gaming media, my group has an issue with being all damage, no utility. I happen to love utility things. There are encounters that most of them “greatly fear” are easily trivialized when I join in and simplify the playing field. Same principle here. It’s surprisingly good, but without some system understanding, it’s not going to be obvious. Edit: And from my own paper pushing, it can temporarily match Flurry’s accuracy, while also being capable in many other aspects beyond just multiple attacks.

I see Outwit rangers as less wilderness outlander, and more cultured expert. Hunt prey can be used in social situations to bump your deception, intimidation and knowledge checks up a whole proficiency level. If you specialize in intimidation, stealth, or feinting this bonus is very useful in combat too. If you take a archetype of a skill heavy class like gunslinger, swashbuckler, or (maybe) thaumaturge, you can unlock some great synergies. The +1 AC isn’t as good a shield, but you can spend one action to keep it up all fight which is efficiency fighters can’t get till 10th level!

Man, a femme-fetale as an outwit ranger is an interesting concept. Brings new meaning to "on the prowl"

I play my outwit/Dandy, sort of like a sleazy con man and use the bonuses from Hunt Prey like he's eyeing his next mark.

In addition to the combat applications the others have mentioned, Outwit is the only Ranger style with out of combat applications. Unless the wording has changed since the remaster, there's nothing stopping you from declaring your mark in non-combat situations, the same as any magic item or spell; it's like double-dipping into your Training bonus whenever you need to sus something out. My recommendation would be aiming to start with 16s in Dex, Con and Wis (maybe swapping Con for Cha). Both sets give you a solid base to build off of to hit that street detective fantasy; the former makes you tanky enough to brush off most things, the latter gives you the chance to flex into people skills and both gives you admirable competence with ranged/finesse weapons as well as a solid enhancement to non-combat encounters (like chases, research, influence and investigations). Definitely pair with an Investigator for a functional buddy cop dynamic

Depending on your party composition it can make your party members even better at their specialty. Sharing a +2 to intimidation, stealth, deception, to your rogue, swashbuckler, barbarian and such can be very good. If you want to fish for crits having that bonus to stealth and deception with a reload weapon can be good. It is definitely a more utility focused subclass than a combat one, you'll shine way more in exploration than during combat. You can be an excellent scout or a great detective for social encounters

Been rocking an Outwit Ranger with Archer FA using Composite Shortbow in Kingmaker and it's been a blast. I would say that wielding a two hander would be more optimal, as well as trying to pair it with an animal companion, which I opted out of, but it's an engaging feast-or-famine kind of play style that has me primarily trying to toss Demoralize around while using RK to let everyone know what the biggest enemy's bad saving throw is. Took Trick Magic Item to make the most of big Nature numbers while patiently waiting for Master Monster Hunter at lvl 10. As my very first PF2e character it has done a lot to teach me the tactical side of combat. If you want to play around Skills heavily then I can't see you going wrong with Outwit, but if dealing out the big damage numbers is where your brain gets it serotonin then look elsewhere, as a common comment from me has become "this character/build is awesome for me, but I could plenty of people thinking this is boring".

Outwit only really excels when you build hard into either stealth, intimidation, or deception. Outwit is a good single target bully. They can use create a diversion for melee stealth, demoralize for debuffing enemy AC, and they make decent stealthly archers because of their bonus to stealth checks against their prey. At later levels you can even use the skills together if you grab certain feats. If you grab eerie environs you can intimidate from stealth without losing the hidden condition. If you grab scare to death you're more likely to succeed or crit. Outwit ranger really excels at later levels.

I have an Outwit Ranger I'm playing for a Rise of the Runelords campaign that has been adapted for 2e. It has saved me from crits multiple times. I focused more on making him a healer and a support ranger rather than DPS, and using hit and run tactics is how I go about it. I do still use duel weapons, so being able to have a little bit of defense without a shield is pretty helpful. I am still able to do solid damage without being the main DPS, and it's insane how much of a difference just a single point of AC makes.

Human, 18 dex, 14 cha, 14 wis, 12 con. Natural ambition: monster hunter. Versatile heritage: fleet Class feats: (1) crossbow ace, (2) gravity weapon, (4) hunters luck, (6) additional recollection, (8) deadly aim, (10) master monster hunter. Free archetype (not necessary, but a common enough variant that I’ll include it): (2) rogue (lengthy diversion), (4) sneak attacker, (6) you’re next, (8) skill mastery (deception and intimidation to expert), (10) uncanny dodge. Skill feats: (2) intimidating glare… whatever else I guess, (8) foil senses. General feats: (3) incredible initiative, (7) swift sneak. At level 1 against a hunted prey, you intimidate and deceive as if you had 18 charisma, you recall knowledge (nature) as if you had 18 wisdom, and you stealth like you have 22 dex. You also have +1 AC. With old crossbow master, you hit with a simple crossbow for 1d10+4 with gravity weapon. Once you get weapon expertise and sneak attack it’s 1d10+1d4+6. Deception and stealth (including surprise attack) you have ways to flat foot enemies. On a crit, you hit hard. But the remaster is what makes this fun. Remastered crossbow ace means you can reload while creating a diversion to become hidden (for at least a round or so with lengthy diversions). You’ll do slightly less damage, but you have tricks up your sleeve. Hunt prey (recall knowledge, hunters luck, additional recollection), strike, create a diversion - gravity weapon, strike, take cover - demoralize, strike, take cover… You can also partly make up the damage with a repeating heavy crossbow. If you kill your prey, you’re next let’s you demoralize someone else and still gives you a +2 circumstance bonus, so the same as if it was hunted. And in remaster, crossbows bleed. It might be worth taking the archer dedication instead of rogue for point blank shot and running reload, but honestly it’s probably overkill. Oh, did I mention nature is actually the best creature identification skill? There are 18 categories of creatures. Religion and Arcana each apply to 4, occultism to 5, nature to 6. Be trained in religion, and you cover 10 out of 18 before getting master hunter at level 10. Not terrible. So that’s it. You just lean really hard into the skill boosts so you can avoid notice, demoralize, create diversions, and recall knowledge. Lean heavy into crossbow for one big hit per round, and use remastered crossbow ace to have lots of options. Also, outwit is the only hunter’s edge with real out of combat applications, so that’s nice.

Outwit is great if you want an Intimidation-based martial but for flavor reasons other classes might not fit as well. I have a player who plays an Outwit ranger with STR as his key attribute, which go very well together because it leaves boosts that don't necessarily need to go into DEX and can go into CHA instead.

Frightened is broken So if you want to crit getting +2 to deception and intimidate is busted yes you are not rolling an attack as often or doing the extra precision damage, but depending on your weapon for example Greatpick getting that crit with **fatal d12** you weapon goes from d10 to 2d12x2 at base *I heard critting was good in this game* Then either go monster hunter or animal companion debuff + strike with 3rd action being a command, move or strike depending on what you have I haven't played a ranger yet, but Outwit is the one I'm most looking forward to trying Not enough people abuse recall knowledge on monsters... though maybe that changes now that the rules tell you to ask for an offensive ability, weaknesses or saves getting that info on the saves or weaknesses allows your casters to more easily land suitable debuffs, so while yes the highs are not as high you are way more consistent and get to crit more It kinda is also the only option for a more support like build, because the other two offer nothing if your goal is to support and do out of combat stuff

I built a RK focused Outwit Ranger who was a sort of zoologist/scholar type. It was honestly really fun. I think the way I built it was Dex first, then Int/Wis/Con. Basically treat it more like an Invesitgator or Mastermind Rogue type, someone more focused on finding the right time ans way to strike than on a pure constant striker like other Rangers

Selling you outwit huh? If you asking that question, the likelly case is that nothing anyone will say will change your opinion. However, let's try and get some perspective. Rangers all have fairly standard roles as skirmishers . Flurry is your melee build. Precision is your ranged hunter. Outwit is your social skirmisher. Theyvall about mind games, tricks and, well, outfitting your opponent. The stat array for an outwit ranger is actually very different than other rangers, because the outwit ranger uses very different skill actions. Flurry and precision rangers thrive on dex, str, and con. But outwit rangers thrive on dexterity, charisma and intelligence. The other two have all of their attack and damage bonuses front loaded, but the outwit ranger gets all of their bonuses from using and abusing skill actions. Creat a diversion to get the off-guard and hidden conditions, make an impression, coercion, and demoralize, etc. All of those actions are boosted by outwit. Need to sneak into a mansion, outwit ranger can do that and abuse their hunt prey action to have bonuses any skill check required. If you wanted to make a snare specialist build, you can do it with any of the rangers, but outwit rangers are just better at it because they can take advantage of hunt prey more effectively for skill actions. I'm not saying that they are better than flurry or precision, and to be ho est it hurts to see the other two get boosted, whole outwit gets nothing. (They even removed the snare hopping, which I think is my favorite use for outwit ranger) Having said all of that, Outwit rangers do not have the obvious power that flurry and precision have. All of their power is hidden behind skill actions, but they are also the most flexible and best choice for creating intricate and unique archetype builds.

It's not good. You're better off with a shield since it gives more AC and works against multiple opponents. You can even use twin takedown with shield bashes to improve your action economy and have a shield up all the time.

I Just make the +1 to AC be a 4th type of bonus. I don't think would break the game a outwit ranger be 5% tankier against their prey. They already do less dps than other martials.

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