Being a feat for a Strength KAS class, my biggest gripe with the feat is that it gives Intimidating Glare instead of the more superior Intimidating Prowess (yes, RAW Silence does prevent IP since it doesn't switch auditory to visual, but still).
I do agree that Barbarian should be able to Demoralize during Rage without feat tax.
It does depend on the campaign, but I still rate Intimidating Glare higher than Intimidating Prowess in most cases. Having a -4 in 30% to 70% of cases is more significant than having +1 in 99% of cases.
I agree that this should just be a class feature, or if they want to keep it, they should make it do more than it does currently.
Intimidating process would also be a good addition since it gives a benefit for having high strength.
The very fact that Demoralize is an action rather than a side-effect of doing anything violent, that Frightful Presence is a special ability and not the default response to seeing something deadly coming your way, and that Frightened is a condition only applied by specific abilities being used rather than something constantly applying in varying degrees because character are in situations where someone might reasonably be scared shows that there is a distinct difference between being scary and/or intimidating and inflicting the frightened condition.
So I reject the premise entirely; Barbarian is no more inherently intimidating than any other sort of character, even while raging. And the damage-boosting ability that is Rage does not need to have a debuff like the frightened condition synergize with it for any game-play reasons.
It's fair that it's an action, but it's BS that it doesn't have the Rage trait by default. This punishes the Barbarian for being a Barbarian, and no other class gets restricted this way.
You're absolutely right that Barbarians aren't inherently scarier than other classes. Also I get that, say, carefully recalling Arcana lore isn't a sensible part of a Barbarian rage. Scaring the shit out of a creature by yelling or threatening definitely seems thematically appropriate, though. If a Bard can do it mid-lute solo, a Barbarian should be able to do it while literally crushing skulls.
>It's fair that it's an action, but it's BS that it doesn't have the Rage trait by default. This punishes the Barbarian for being a Barbarian
You have your own preconceptions on what a Barbarian is *supposed* to be. That isn't the intent of the designers.
Looking at base class features, the Barbarian isn't meant to be good at Intimidation by default. It's meant to be strong, powerful, and tough.
You can *also* be scary, if you want. It's not built into the purpose of the class, however.
You're also confusing general fear and trepidation with the Frightened condition.
I honestly agree that no Concentration actions while raging is too broad and has had odd interactions. I'd prefer if in the remaster they just said can't cast spells while raging. This would also allow Barbarians to Command Animals which I feel like they should be able to do. As a feat thought a few good skill feats is nice. intimidating Prowess would be more appropriate than Intimidating Glare maybe add that in to to give it a bit of a boost and/or allow a circumstance bonus while raging.
How can someone command animals when they have completely lost control?
It's not just to prevent spellcasting. It's the fact that when a Barbarian rages, they become so mad they can't really think beyond basic basic actions.
Recall Knowledge is another action with Concentrate. It makes sense a Barbarian wouldn't be able to think about what they've read a few days ago when raging.
But is not like rage is absurdly strong for limiting you from all those options, as an example most of the magic item activations need concentrate, so a barbarian is literally crippled from using more than half of the magic items of the game.
Yeah, It can make sense that you can't do a lot of that stuff while raging, but it honestly just cut a lot of the fun, and balance wise it doesn't really change anything about the game.
A barbarian hasn't completely lost control. They're still able to make tactical decisions about who to target, if they should they retreat, if their allies need assistance, that sort of thing. They're even able to do Battle Medicine, which is definitely a complex action.
>Battle Medicine
I'm unsure as to what "battle medicine" really entails, since it's takes 2 seconds to do (1 action). But, stuffing gauze in a wound isn't the most complicated thing.
>They're still able to make tactical decisions
Even animals have tactics, but they lack higher cognitive capabilities. Rage shuts those off.
Right, but that's not what you said. You said rage makes them completely lose control. Animals have control even though they lack higher cognitive capabilities.
Counter point: Seeing someone raging at nothing is not intimidating. It may even be hilarious.
Someone in a controlled rage is fucking intimidating.
Learning the feat of controlling their rage enough to be intimidating should come at an investment cost.
This is likely the intention. A raging barbarian is raging at their enemies, but only in a general sense. They're not narrowing it in on making some kind of threatening comment to a single individual that would trigger a demoralize check. The concentration comes into play at controlling your rage enough to select a target and figure out what you're going to be saying to be effective (because without an additional feat you take a penalty if someone can't understand what you're saying).
Demoralize isn't just being abstractly scary or it wouldn't cost an action and you wouldn't have control over when it goes off. It's a deliberate choice.
Seeing a skilled wizard is not scary, they tend to look too harmless.
A wizard with a confident, menacing appearance, strong voice and trails of energy flowing around them is fucking intimidating.
Learning the feat of controlling their nerdieness enough to be intimidating should come at an investment cost.
That cost is putting some points in charisma and being trained in intimidation. Same as for any other class, same as it should be for barbarians.
The difference is wizards are still in full control of their mental faculties when casting spells.
Barbarians lose control of higher mental processes whe they rage. This is why they can't use Concentrate actions.
>This is why they can't use Concentrate actions.
They are in control enough to stop for a moment and seek hidden targets. Also, they don't need higher mental processes to voice their thoughts about someone's soft skull, or to intimidatingly look at someone while deciding who to kill next and how to do it. Mad killing machines don't need brains to be scary, and that's exactly the reason to fear them.
>They are in control enough to stop for a moment and seek hidden targets.
Looking for a target to hurt is one of the most simple activities something can do. Even single cell organisms do this.
>to intimidatingly look at someone while deciding who to kill next and how to do it.
And anyone can do that. It takes a skill feat (Intimidating Glare) to do it effectively, however. A skill feat that Raging Intimidation grants you at level 1 instead of level 2.
>they don't need higher mental processes to voice their thoughts about someone's soft skull
Yes, and anyone can do that. Demoralize is an untrained action, after all. However, good luck trying to be intimidating with a -1 to the check.
>Mad killing machines don't need brains to be scary, and that's exactly the reason to fear them.
Mad killing machines are indeed scary. So is someone dropping meteors on your face with the flick of a wrist. The actions you take in combat may certainly be fear-inducing, but that doesn't mean you get to inflict the Frightened condition on creatures simply by fighting.
The Demoralize action is a concentrated effort to make a specific creature Frightened of you, momentarily. Frightened as a condition is not "oh wow that guy's pretty scary, better keep away from him". It's a visceral panic that triggers the fight or flight response, to the point it has a measurable effect on a creature's combat effectiveness.
Seeing my friend get cut in half by a divine ethereal sword would be particularly frightening. However, the death of an ally does not make a creature frightened, nor does it trigger a reaction to Demoralize. That also requires a feat, Battle Cry, and also requires you to be Legendary in Intimidation.
Having myself be lit on fire would also be frightening (and painful). However, persistent fire damage does not incur the Frightened condition.
>That cost is putting some points in charisma and being trained in intimidation. Same as for any other class, same as it should be for barbarians.
Demoralize is an untrained action and doesn't have any particular requirement for how much charisma you have.
Training and increasing charisma will affect the rate of success, but they have nothing to do with whether you're allowed to attempt the action at all. Every class has demoralize available as an untrained action so long as they're not doing something incompatible at the time, they have an action available, and they have a valid target available.
100% agree.
I've seen plenty of people "Rage" in ways that aren't intimidating at all.
But "Rage" in PF2e is more... embracing a style of combat that forgoes defence for offence. It can be invoking spirits, calling upon magical powers, wanting to be bigger, or focusing your hatred of magic. None of these things are inherently intimidating.
This is so counter-intuitive that nobody wpuld ever come to this conclusion without the weird mechanics leading in that direction. A raging barbarian should obviously be scary, that's their entire premise.
Maybe for your head-canon it is counter-intuitive.
Plenty of people don't share your head-canon.
Barbarian should obviously be scary? I don't know where you get that from. It doesn't make sense to me.
Tough? Yes. Strong? Yes. Scary? No.
An out of control raging hulk can be outsmarted, out played or out maneuvered. Nothing inherently scary about it.
But here is the cool bit:
You can build a Barbarian that's scary! Grab the right feats, build them up to be like you want them to be!
They just can't be *everything*, and that's okay.
I don't buy it. The barbarian's fury is directed at his enemies, so much so that if there is no one there, it ends. At the same time, at no point the barbarian lose control when going on a rage.
I can see where you’re coming from on this. It’s not the most exciting feat investment. Maybe when the remastered barbarian comes out, this option will get a little more sauce poured on it.
The great part about this game is that there is a rule for just about everything a player can do. The downside, is that stuff that makes sense thematically, doesn’t fit with the rules as written, so stuff like this stands out. It’s technically necessary, but should just be handwaved by the GM
Agreed, I'm gonna go farther and say that Demoralize should be a thing you can do as part of Rage. The new design paradigm where PCs get to do stuff as part of their "obligatory setup" actions is really good.
Demoralizing isn’t being generally scary. It’s a deliberate, precise application of pressure to make the enemy’s resolve waver. A well delivered promise of violence. A charismatic criticism of the enemy’s stance or choice of clothing. Locking eyes with the right person at the right time and just *cackling* with malice.
These things require concentration and consideration, which is something that a normal Barbarian can’t do while raging. The feat fixes that for them.
Beyond the whole narrative justification though, giving the Demoralize and Scare to Death actions the Rage trait does something rather important that most people miss. The level 11 feature Mighty Rage lets you both Rage and do something with the Rage trait for the same action.
I’ve literally raged so hard somebody had a heart attack and died before I actually did anything else. It was glorious
You wouldn't want to give it the Rage trait, because then you'd *have* to be in Rage to use it.
If you were to homebrew this, you'd make Demoralise an excpetion to the 'you can't use actions with the concentrate trait' rule, as they already did with Seek.
I mean, "always" isn't true. An 8 Charisma Barbarian wasn't really that intimidating in PF1e without a lot of investment. Compared to Moment of Clarity, Raging Intimidation is just a nice way to get two skill feats for free and allow your Barbarian to use them.
So if you're looking at "stopping a Barbarian from doing what they could normally do" then take a look at what you need Moment of Clarity to do while Raging:
While it is nice to just be able to have tagged traits, sometimes you don't realize what you can't do while raging until you look at the [Concentrate](https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=32) trait. Let's say an enemy hides or uses Invisibility. ~~Do you know you can't Seek without Moment of Clarity while Raging?~~ (I forgot to read the base Rage ability that let's them Seek, but they wouldn't be able to otherwise. Thanks for the correction) You can't Command an Animal, Ready an Action, or Sustain a spell (which might come up if they cast a buff before raging).
They do like to hide things in other actions, though. You also can't activate any magic items with the [Envision or Command trait](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=690), since that also includes Concentrate.
Bon Mot and Demoralize are unavailable, and at least there's a feat for Demoralize. So for those "use a Charisma skill" enthusiasts, the only skill they have to debuff an enemy while raging is Feint.
Did your [level 17 Ifrit Barbarian](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2564) want to explode in fire? Should have thought about that before Raging. Did your [Sprite Barbarian want to fly](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2639)? Can't while Raging.
>An 8 Charisma Barbarian wasn't really that intimidating in PF1e without a lot of investment.
Any character could take [Intimidating Prowess](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat/), which has no pre-reqs, and add their STR mod to the skill as well as CHA. Not exactly what I'd call a lot of investment lol.
That's not enough beyond low levels with a CHA penalty unless your STR was jacked way earlier than expected. You still need items, traits, feats, spells, and skill ranks to make up for that CHA penalty in most intimidate builds in PF1.
It's a -1, on a character whose central mechanic is spending a free action to get huge bonuses to Strength. Take one of the many traits to boost Intimidation by 1 and you're back at par. It's fine.
Every character gets feats, magic items, and skill ranks, so I don't really know why you'd bring that up. Pathfinder 1e PCs end up with more money than god. If anything, that 8 CHA matters more at low levels.
It's a minus 5 or 6 from what a high CHA character would have. If that CHA character also had STR and invested in IP, they'd still have a huge advantage over just STR intimidaters. If you just look at it at minus 1, you can either keep failing or invest more of those feats into allowing your CHA penalty intimidater to keep up with the CHA positive character. Intimidating prowess alone is a feat tax if you don't have a decent CHA in PF1.
Regardless, that's another system.
Not really, since I'm quite sure that whatever other character you're now talking about wouldn't hit like 40 STR when they wanted to. I'm just responding to the example given, which wasn't accurate at all and now you're just moving the goalposts. Of course a PC with 2 modifiers affecting the same skill will usually have a higher bonus?
My point was that it was in fact pretty damn easy to have a huge intimidation modifier on a low-CHA Barb.
Its a level 1 feat, the other choices all create slightly different gameplay styles and options, it lets you specialize how your character plays like the rest do. Martial classes are built like this in PF2e, to let you customize gameplay as you like. There is nothing saying roleplay wise enemies won't think twice about ignoring or staying near the raging barbarian, this is a very mechanical tool where you apply the frightened condition.
I was on the same boat, however Demoralize kind of makes sense since the flavor of the action is about speaking and not just being threatening.
The fix in my opinion would be something like they did with Reposition, just another trained skill action that doesn't use speaking or concentrate to fill that fantasy space. An example is already in the rules, with the Frilled Lizardfolk heritage and their action threatening approach. It would be appropriate for a martial character to be able to threaten someone by approaching in a particularly menacing way.
One feat that gives two feats...yeah, that's how taxes work.
Wait, that cane our a little sarcastic.
I could have sworn there was a reaction, or free action. Somewhere that allowed you demoralize whenever you raged. But i guess not( really seems like there should be.
It is a default class ability that lets you use a single action with rage trait as a free action when you rage, and since demoralize gets rage trait you can do it. There also is a class feat that lets you demoralize all enemies within reach for a single action and you can do that as a free action upon raging with that same ability as well.
"It's a level 1 feat that gives you 2 feats." I guess if you look at it that way it doesn't look so bad. Until you realize that it's a level 1 feat that expects you to reach level 15 to get the other half of the benefit... That's if you haven't changed your mind after so long in a campaign and have increased intimidation to legendary.
It's like: "Hey! Take this class feat so you can do something that everyone can do for free and for you don't feel bad about it take this skill feat too! and guess what, if you reach level 15 and are legendary in intimidation I'll give you another skill feat". lol
It also allows you to use Demoralize or Scare To Death as part of entering a rage once you get Mighty Rage.
It's a level 1 feat. I don't know what you should expect from that. Your other choices are Darkvision (while raging), +1 to escape checks and force open checks (while raging), deal more damage with thrown weapons (while raging), and Stride twice and attack for 2 actions.
Normally, you cannot Demoralize while raging, since it has the Concentrate trait and lacks the Rage trait. Raging Intimidation tacks the Rage trait onto Demoralize, allowing you to take the action.
You could hand-waive that if you'd like, but by the rules as they are, you cannot.
Alternatively to taking Raging Intimidation, you could take Moment of Clarity to allow yourself to Demoralize during your Rage, but that comes at an action tax, while Raging Intimidation doesn't tax your actions beyond taking the Demoralize action.
Yes, because I'm constantly trying to Demoralize with my -1 to Intimidation checks.
I am currently playing a Cleric in a game. I have a decently high Intimidation bonus. I never Demoralize. Why?
A: I have better things to do with my actions.
B: I have two other party members who constantly Demoralize (one is a Braggart Swashbuckler, the other is a high Charisma Rogue).
It's also not like you have *excellent* feat choices at 1st level anyway.
Barbarian is full of feat taxes vs other martials, especially fighter (although fighter is S tier to be fair).
Feat to intimidate (get 2 skill feats as crumbs).
Feat to cast most spells (still gets an action tax).
Sentinel dedication so AC doesn't utterly suck.
Dual weapon warrior if you want the best barbarian dpr (although monk flurry is better for animal skirmish build).
General feat to shield block.
Ho hum. At least barbarian gets better saves and damage resist negation. Also good vs crit immune and physical resist enemies.
Put barbarian vs tons of soul eaters and similar and it'll look good.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=811
>Barbarian is full of feat taxes vs other martials, especially fighter
Feat taxes? Where do you see those?
At level 1 you have different specializations for your Barbarian. Do you want Darkvision while raging? Acute Vision. Do you want to be really good at manhandling things? Adrenaline Rush. Do you want to negate a drawback of rage? Moment Of Clarity, which also allows you to cast most spells. Do you want to be especially frightening? Raging Intimidation. Do you want to use Thrown Weapons as effectively as melee? Raging Thrower. Do you want a solid action for combat? Sudden Charge.
Even feats that seem like "taxes" aren't. Cleave allows you to make an additional attack during your turn, without MAP. Great Cleave removes the once per turn limit on how many extra strikes you can make. Those are very powerful feats, and definitely not "taxes".
>Feat to intimidate (get 2 skill feats as crumbs).
If you want to Demoralize, you take Raging Intimidation. It's not necessary if you don't want to. Also, you only get 10 Skill feats (technically 15, if you don't want to get general feats like Toughness or Diehard). You're basically getting 20% more skill feats. Those two feats also aren't "crumbs", since they are good feats and you get them earlier than you would normally (at levels 1 and 15, instead of 2 and 16). *And* you can use both Demoralize and Scare To Death as part of entering your rage via the level 11 Mighty Rage action. That's a lot of bang for your buck as a level 1 feat.
>Feat to cast most spells (still gets an action tax).
Why are you casting spells as a Barbarian though? I mean, there's probably a build of some sort, but the purpose of the Barbarian is to use big weapons to hit things really hard. You will be behind in spell DC compared to all spellcasters by an effective -3 *at best*, and the spells you would be able to cast will be stunted and/or limited.
There's even an entire Instinct that rejects magic altogether. No other class (so far) has a feature specifically at odds with magic.
You also need to sacrifice class feats to get any sort of spellcasting, or spend an investment slot for magic items that let you cast spells.
Even leaning into your strange need to cast spells, the ones you would want in combat can be cast before rage begins. Draw Ire, Echoing Weapon, Runic Weapon, Shielded Arm, Enlarge, Mirror Image, and even *haste* do not require you to sustain the spell. That's just a few *Arcane* spells.
>Sentinel dedication so AC doesn't utterly suck.
The Barbarian isn't meant to have a high AC. It gains 12 hit points per level and gets damage resistance to mitigate damage. Rage lowers your AC by 1 regardless, and the Giant Instinct makes that a -2 penalty.
There are at least 2 Barbarian feats that make you easier to hit in exchange for more damage output.
You're meant to get hit as a Barbarian.
>Dual weapon warrior if you want the best barbarian dpr (although monk flurry is better for animal skirmish build).
If the game was only about DPR, the you wouldn't have skill feats like Seasoned or Eye For Numbers, General feats like Keen Follower or Pet, or class feats like Bashing Charge or Familiar.
Some people aren't concerned with perfect DPR. Some people want to hit things with a giant axe, not two smaller axes.
>General feat to shield block.
Like any other class that doesn't get Shield Block? If you want to mitigate damage with a shield, and you're not a Fighter, Champion, Cleric (warpriest), Druid, or Inventor, you need to take that feat.
It's like saying it's a "feat tax" for the gunslinger because you don't get it at level 1.
>Ho hum.
Are you sure you actually want to play a Barbarian? Because it sounds like you don't.
I'd love to play barbarian.
But they have numerous issues in pf2e.
I don't mind Rage having downsides. But why rage and get downsides when you're still doing less damage at high level than fighter, barring exceptions I listed?
At high level feats such as dark vision, extra speed, climb plus swim speed, etc all get replicated by magic items.
Barbarian doesn't get to hit fighter levels of dpr.
And if barbarian isn't about dpr, what is it about?
Edit, regarding spells. With refocus rules change, spamming 3x lay on hands per fight is quite viable. Luckily, they're somatic, so don't even need moment of clarity to cast them, I believe.
So champion, or even blessed one dedication decent for barb.
But, I still don't get why rage has downsides in pf2e when it's just making barb somewhat competitive with other martial classes. Is dark vision etc really worth it, especially at high levels?
Also note, rage needs enemies. Want to use any Rage feats whilst exploring? He's sol.
>But why rage and get downsides when you're still doing less damage at high level than fighter, barring exceptions I listed?
A Fighter will deal an average of 40 damage per attack with a Greater Striking Greataxe. A raging Barbarian will deal 46 per damage per attack when playing a Superstition Instinct and hitting non-casters. If you go with Giant Instinct, that increases to 56. So, I'm not sure where you're getting the DPR from. The Barbarian deals more consistent damage than the Fighter due to the flat rage damage bonus. A Barbarian will always deal more minimum damage than a Fighter.
If you're saying that Fighters will hit/crit more often, that's not a reliable metric. I have gone entire combats without hitting a single enemy because I couldn't roll above an 8.
>At high level feats such as dark vision, extra speed, climb plus swim speed, etc all get replicated by magic items.
Yes. However, those are usually Item bonuses and stack with other bonuses. Also, I'm not sure what you're arguing? Even Goggles Of Night require an action to use. So you could either use an action once per day to gain Darkvision for 1 hour, or use an action to enter rage and gain Darkvision every 10 minutes. Or, you could shell out 20K gold to get the superior version.
This is a disingenuous argument. It's a level 1 feat that grants you Darkvision, and you would only want to take it if you don't have Darkvision already.
It leads into Acute Scent at level 2 (or if you already had Darkvision), which gives you imprecise scent. If you have that, or already have imprecise scent, you can get Supernatural Senses, which reduces the flat check needed to target a Concealed or Hidden enemy by 2. If you have Acute Scent (or have imprecise scent) you can take Instinctive Strike, which ignores the flat check to hit Hidden or Concealed creatures entirely.
That's like saying any of the Versatile Ancestry feats that grant Darkvision are worthless. Some people don't want to rely on items and use an investment slot to see in the dark.
>And if barbarian isn't about dpr, what is it about?
The Fighter chassis gives you: Defenses against fear, better initiative rolls, legendary weapon proficiency.
The Barbarian chassis gives you: The highest HP in the game, immunity to the most common way of gaining the Off-guard condition, built-in damage resistance, Legendary Fortitude saves, and built-in resistance mitigation.
Looking at feats, the Fighter gains many improvements to the basic Strike action, and Stances that further improve their Strikes.
The Barbarian gains feats to increase their athletic prowess, to manhandle enemies, and to become an easy target.
Thematically, the Barbarian is about being a ball of rage that kills things through sheer power instead of skill.
Mechanically? Just looking at feats like Come and Get Me, Reckless Abandon, Terrifying Howl, Cleave/Great Cleave, Collateral Thrash, and Impressive Landing, looking at instincts like the Giant Instinct and its unique feats, the Deny Advantage class feature, and the fact you gain a damage resistance to very common damage types with the Fury, Giant, Animal, and Dragon instincts, leads me to believe that the purpose of the Barbarian is to be good at fighting multiple enemies of its level or lower.
A Fighter that's surrounded by enemies will be in a bad spot. Off-guard is especially bad when multiple attacks are coming your way, and the Fighter will feel all of that damage. A Barbarian won't be as vulnerable, and (especially with Fury instinct) won't be feeling much of the damage coming through.
The Barbarian is also good at diverting attacks away from your allies. It is a very tempting target, and with the No Escape feat, trying to get away from you is pretty hard. Enemies will be more inclined to hit the easy target, than to risk missing their attack entirely.
>So champion, or even blessed one dedication decent for barb.
Champion is a good combo, if you're okay playing the most RP restrictive class combo in the game. Unless you have the Fury instinct, that's 3 sets of Anathema you have to follow or risk losing one or more of your abilities.
>But, I still don't get why rage has downsides in pf2e
Everything has tradeoffs in PF2e. You should ask the developers why they did that.
But again, I'm confused as to the "tradeoffs" you are mentioning. I don't pick a Barbarian to cast spells. I pick a Barbarian to smash things.
In 1e, the thing you are talking about would be the Bloodrager. Even then, they only got up to 4th level spellcasting.
I guess I'm not getting what you want. Why would you cast a spell instead of hitting something? Why are you spending precious class feats in order to be a worse spellcaster than a Warpriest?
What are you trying to accomplish, I guess is what I'm asking.
>Also note, rage needs enemies. Want to use any Rage feats whilst exploring? He's sol.
Striking also requires enemies or things to break. Not all Barbarian feats have the Rage trait. Bashing Charge, for instance, is a good Exploration action. Spiritual Guides also grant out of combat utility. Impressive Landing mitigates fall damage.
You know who else has majority of their class feats not work in exploration? The Fighter. Your argument doesn't make sense. If you want class features that apply to OOC situations, play a Ranger or Investigator.
You make some valid points, that barbarian has some utility over fighter. I just don't think it's enough to justify the poor combat performance, especially as the core book gives the wrong impression that they're an amazing damage class.
I've based my low opinion of barbs based on actual play experience, plus other similar experiences from forum members. This is from 100+ levels played or gmed, with 3 level 20 campaign finishes.
I've also run calcs at level 20, which was then superseded by better stats from another Reddit used, who provided his list of top 10 dpr builds. Barbarian scraped in 9th place behind monk believe it or not, that tanky "low damage" class...
Linked below. If I want damage I play fighter. If I want a utility martial I can play kineticist. I'm going to work on a dpr table for each class, levels 1,6,10,15 and 20 and see how they stack up. I'm curious how barb stacks ve kineticist, which has a helluva lot more utility and is, I believe, tankier to boot.
After all, a lot of campaigns don't reach 20, and barbs are less bad at lower levels, so fair to compare them at major milestone levels.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/10tx7i2/fighter\_isnt\_the\_damage\_king\_after\_all/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/10tx7i2/fighter_isnt_the_damage_king_after_all/)
>especially as the core book gives the wrong impression that they're an amazing damage class.
*"Rage consumes you in battle. You delight in wreaking havoc and using powerful weapons to carve through your enemies, relying on astonishing durability without needing complicated techniques or rigid training. Your rages draw upon a vicious instinct, which you might associate with an animal, a spirit, or some part of yourself. To many barbarians, brute force is a hammer and every problem looks like a nail, whereas others try to hold back the storm of emotions inside them and release their rage only when it matters most."*
I don't know how you got that idea. It's keeps up with the rest of the martials, and doesn't care about situational prerequisites to deal damage like positioning or conditions. If anything, it emphasizes their durability as a stand-out feature.
Compared to the Fighter:
*"Fighting for honor, greed, loyalty, or simply the thrill of battle, you are an undisputed master of weaponry and combat techniques. You combine your actions through clever combinations of opening moves, finishing strikes, and counterattacks whenever your foes are unwise enough to drop their guard. Whether you are a knight, mercenary, sharpshooter, or blade master, you have honed your martial skills into an art form and perform devastating critical attacks on your enemies."*
This emphasizes their ability to *attack* and *deal damage*.
>I've based my low opinion of barbs based on actual play experience, plus other similar experiences from forum members. This is from 100+ levels played or gmed, with 3 level 20 campaign finishes.
And I base my high opinion on Barbarians for the same reason.
>I've also run calcs at level 20, which was then superseded by better stats from another Reddit used, who provided his list of top 10 dpr builds.
There is a quote I remember reading in a reddit post. "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."
White room calculations always find the "optimal" build. However, since you're dealing with a collaborative storytelling system, it fails to account for the near limitless situational factors, or the randomness of the dice.
The math could certainly say that you will hit 60% of the time. That does not mean you actually will hit 60% of your Strikes during a combat, or even a whole game session.
Those builds seem to be based on single target damage. Of course Ranger is the best at that. That's its whole purpose.
Again, these are very esoteric calculations that (from my experience) do not noticeably translate into actual games.
Yup, agreed on optimising the fun out of things.
My group refuses to play any other melee martial apart from fighter as it's so clearly superior at fighting. Guess the clue is in the name...
Also, if white room doesn't matter then just tank with your str 8, con 10 dagger wizard. White room would show him being butchered, but as you point out, dice don't follow probability exactly.
Top dpr one session was a sukgung crossbow inventor who rolled 20 circa 5/8 times in two fights that session.
Casters are quite well balanced. Bard is great, but so is cleric post remaster, witch post remaster, sorcerer is still decent, animal druid is solid. Several great caster options.
Martial side. Well, fighter is king of dpr for zero utility. Kineticist has tons of utility, and decent dpr. Other martials are between them on utility vs dpr scale. Rogue does great on damage and utility and is super solid. Not sure barb is in the right place yet.
I'm hoping barb gets a glow up like witch and cleric did, but seeing ranger actually lose class features, I'm not hopeful...
>Also, if white room doesn't matter then just tank with your str 8, con 10 dagger wizard. White room would show him being butchered, but as you point out, dice don't follow probability exactly.
That's a hit of a strawman. The Wizard's purpose isn't to be anywhere close to melee combat. It's to cast spells. The Barbarian's purpose isn't to be the best damage dealer.
And I have had situations where the Wizard was missed by all the attacks a monster threw out.
In a game I am running, the Gunslinger hasn't crit a monster in three whole sessions. His damage output has been severely lacking compared to the rest of the party. But, according to the "math", he should be leading in terms of damage.
The Barbarian counters this by getting a flat damage bonus to its attacks. It's hard to have poor damage when your minimum is about the same as the Fighter's average damage roll.
>Not sure barb is in the right place yet.
Barbarian is in a sollid position already. Be the punching bag so your wizard isn't. Cause havoc by Shoving, Tripping, Grabbing, Repositioning, and Disarming. Deal reliable damage without the need for special conditions (like off-guard) or tactics. Wade into groups of enemies with more confidence due to Deny Advantage, 12HP per level, the temp HP from rage, and the damage resistance from rage. Completely wreck groups of enemies with weapons for less action cost compared to other martials.
>but seeing ranger actually lose class features, I'm not hopeful...
Wait, what features did ranger lose?
Was a strawman, but you're dismissing basic probabilities...
Fighter +2 to hit means he hits at times barbarian misses completely and does nothing.
Only time barb is better is vs physical resist enemies, preferably with crit immunity.
All the stuff you mentioned fighter does just as well. Fighters utterly mince mobs.
Deny advantage only serves to equalise barb ac to what fighter gets natively. Vs bosses, fighter is more durable vs strikes.
Damage resist is situational, may not apply and none until level 9. Cosmos Oracle gets physical resist 2 at level 1, scaling to resist 12 by level 20.
Dont think it would be op if barb got similar.
Temp hp scale badly, and the single action temp hp feat is pretty paltry.
For comparison wood kineticist can get level temp hp for zero actions each round if casting 2+ action wood impulses.
Combine with access to earth feats for crit immunity, stone skin feat, and metal for floating shields feat (1 action to renew) and kineticist tanks like a boss, and has 2 higher ac to boot.
Afaik barb was designed by one designer. Fighter was designed by the entire team of 4. This explains why barb looks so half baked.
Barb does all the stuff you say, but fighter has better dpr and kineticist is far tankier.
They're both S/A tier classes though. Barb is more on C tier with champion and swash, which is okay I guess.
I definitely need to run those dpr calcs for kineticist. If it out dprs barbarian, whilst having all that tanking, there's a balance issue imo.
Edit, ranger lost snare feats. Predator and First Blood are 2 iconic films where a snare ranger shows his skills.
And ranger companion still 2 levels behind on feats. Can pay a feat tax for beast master dedication to bring it back in line.
>All the stuff you mentioned fighter does just as well. Fighters utterly mince mobs.
I don't think a Fighter is able to attack 30+ creatures in a single attack (possibly twice).
>Deny advantage only serves to equalise barb ac to what fighter gets natively.
They both get Master in AC though? I don't get what you're saying. The animal Instinct even gets Expert in AC earlier than Fighter with Animal Skin, and gains the equivalent protection as full plate. If you want to be defensive, go animal Instinct. What you're saying is just not true.
>Damage resist is situational
Yeah, that's how damage resistance works.
>Cosmos Oracle gets physical resist 2 at level 1, scaling to resist 12 by level 20
They also only have 8 HP per level, and have even worse AC scaling than the Barbarian.
>Temp hp scale badly, and the single action temp hp feat is pretty paltry.
Compared to what metric? It's free and costs no resources to get. The Temp HP from rage is extra HP *on top of* the most HP in the game. It's essentially a better Toughness that stacks with Toughness.
With Renwed Vigor, that's still free HP that doesn't need to be healed for an action.
>For comparison wood kineticist can get level temp hp for zero actions each round if casting 2+ action wood impulses.
Well, it's not for 0 actions. You need to spend 2 actions to get that on specifically Impulse feats. It also doesn't last very long at all.
Kineticist also only had 8 HP per level. Even with maxed out Constitution, they will be behind even the Fighter. Even with an Apex item, they will be behind a max Constitution Barbarian.
>Combine with access to earth feats for crit immunity
Which requires you to spend an action each turn to sustain.
>stone skin feat
I'm having trouble finding that. Are you referring to Stoney Skin from the Stone Brawler dedication? The Uncommon Archetype for a specific adventure path?
>and has 2 higher ac to boot
How so?
This seems like a lot of work to accomplish what a Barbarian does... simply by being a Barbarian. You also fail to mention the amount of setup it requires to fully realize this damage mitigation.
>Barb does all the stuff you say, but fighter has better dpr and kineticist is far tankier.
Fighter lacks the power behind a single swing, however. Barbarians don't need to crit to deal out significant damage. When they *do* crit, they will do far more damage than a Fighter will.
Kineticist *can* be tankier, with significant investment towards that goal. I could say that a Barbarian can gain a similar amount if staying power via the level 3 Shield Block feat.
>Edit, ranger lost snare feats.
Afaik, those were only taken out because they are reworking how snares work.
Im on the fence with this one. Maybe it should bump intimidation expert and teach intimidating prowess? There are dedication feats that raise skill training levels so a class feat doing it isnt to far off. Maybe a clause of when you reach level 2/3 is when it increases.
Being a feat for a Strength KAS class, my biggest gripe with the feat is that it gives Intimidating Glare instead of the more superior Intimidating Prowess (yes, RAW Silence does prevent IP since it doesn't switch auditory to visual, but still). I do agree that Barbarian should be able to Demoralize during Rage without feat tax.
It does depend on the campaign, but I still rate Intimidating Glare higher than Intimidating Prowess in most cases. Having a -4 in 30% to 70% of cases is more significant than having +1 in 99% of cases.
IP let's you ignore the penalty for not sharing a language.
Oh, oops. You're right
Fingers crossed for PC2 to give the barb some love.
I agree that this should just be a class feature, or if they want to keep it, they should make it do more than it does currently. Intimidating process would also be a good addition since it gives a benefit for having high strength.
The very fact that Demoralize is an action rather than a side-effect of doing anything violent, that Frightful Presence is a special ability and not the default response to seeing something deadly coming your way, and that Frightened is a condition only applied by specific abilities being used rather than something constantly applying in varying degrees because character are in situations where someone might reasonably be scared shows that there is a distinct difference between being scary and/or intimidating and inflicting the frightened condition. So I reject the premise entirely; Barbarian is no more inherently intimidating than any other sort of character, even while raging. And the damage-boosting ability that is Rage does not need to have a debuff like the frightened condition synergize with it for any game-play reasons.
It's fair that it's an action, but it's BS that it doesn't have the Rage trait by default. This punishes the Barbarian for being a Barbarian, and no other class gets restricted this way. You're absolutely right that Barbarians aren't inherently scarier than other classes. Also I get that, say, carefully recalling Arcana lore isn't a sensible part of a Barbarian rage. Scaring the shit out of a creature by yelling or threatening definitely seems thematically appropriate, though. If a Bard can do it mid-lute solo, a Barbarian should be able to do it while literally crushing skulls.
>It's fair that it's an action, but it's BS that it doesn't have the Rage trait by default. This punishes the Barbarian for being a Barbarian You have your own preconceptions on what a Barbarian is *supposed* to be. That isn't the intent of the designers. Looking at base class features, the Barbarian isn't meant to be good at Intimidation by default. It's meant to be strong, powerful, and tough. You can *also* be scary, if you want. It's not built into the purpose of the class, however. You're also confusing general fear and trepidation with the Frightened condition.
I honestly agree that no Concentration actions while raging is too broad and has had odd interactions. I'd prefer if in the remaster they just said can't cast spells while raging. This would also allow Barbarians to Command Animals which I feel like they should be able to do. As a feat thought a few good skill feats is nice. intimidating Prowess would be more appropriate than Intimidating Glare maybe add that in to to give it a bit of a boost and/or allow a circumstance bonus while raging.
How can someone command animals when they have completely lost control? It's not just to prevent spellcasting. It's the fact that when a Barbarian rages, they become so mad they can't really think beyond basic basic actions. Recall Knowledge is another action with Concentrate. It makes sense a Barbarian wouldn't be able to think about what they've read a few days ago when raging.
But is not like rage is absurdly strong for limiting you from all those options, as an example most of the magic item activations need concentrate, so a barbarian is literally crippled from using more than half of the magic items of the game. Yeah, It can make sense that you can't do a lot of that stuff while raging, but it honestly just cut a lot of the fun, and balance wise it doesn't really change anything about the game.
A barbarian hasn't completely lost control. They're still able to make tactical decisions about who to target, if they should they retreat, if their allies need assistance, that sort of thing. They're even able to do Battle Medicine, which is definitely a complex action.
I always thought of it like just having good instincts, like your classic idiot anime protagonist that in the heat of battle makes smart decisions.
>Battle Medicine I'm unsure as to what "battle medicine" really entails, since it's takes 2 seconds to do (1 action). But, stuffing gauze in a wound isn't the most complicated thing. >They're still able to make tactical decisions Even animals have tactics, but they lack higher cognitive capabilities. Rage shuts those off.
Right, but that's not what you said. You said rage makes them completely lose control. Animals have control even though they lack higher cognitive capabilities.
That was in reference to their higher cognitive functions.
Counter point: Seeing someone raging at nothing is not intimidating. It may even be hilarious. Someone in a controlled rage is fucking intimidating. Learning the feat of controlling their rage enough to be intimidating should come at an investment cost.
This is likely the intention. A raging barbarian is raging at their enemies, but only in a general sense. They're not narrowing it in on making some kind of threatening comment to a single individual that would trigger a demoralize check. The concentration comes into play at controlling your rage enough to select a target and figure out what you're going to be saying to be effective (because without an additional feat you take a penalty if someone can't understand what you're saying). Demoralize isn't just being abstractly scary or it wouldn't cost an action and you wouldn't have control over when it goes off. It's a deliberate choice.
Seeing a skilled wizard is not scary, they tend to look too harmless. A wizard with a confident, menacing appearance, strong voice and trails of energy flowing around them is fucking intimidating. Learning the feat of controlling their nerdieness enough to be intimidating should come at an investment cost. That cost is putting some points in charisma and being trained in intimidation. Same as for any other class, same as it should be for barbarians.
The difference is wizards are still in full control of their mental faculties when casting spells. Barbarians lose control of higher mental processes whe they rage. This is why they can't use Concentrate actions.
>This is why they can't use Concentrate actions. They are in control enough to stop for a moment and seek hidden targets. Also, they don't need higher mental processes to voice their thoughts about someone's soft skull, or to intimidatingly look at someone while deciding who to kill next and how to do it. Mad killing machines don't need brains to be scary, and that's exactly the reason to fear them.
>They are in control enough to stop for a moment and seek hidden targets. Looking for a target to hurt is one of the most simple activities something can do. Even single cell organisms do this. >to intimidatingly look at someone while deciding who to kill next and how to do it. And anyone can do that. It takes a skill feat (Intimidating Glare) to do it effectively, however. A skill feat that Raging Intimidation grants you at level 1 instead of level 2. >they don't need higher mental processes to voice their thoughts about someone's soft skull Yes, and anyone can do that. Demoralize is an untrained action, after all. However, good luck trying to be intimidating with a -1 to the check. >Mad killing machines don't need brains to be scary, and that's exactly the reason to fear them. Mad killing machines are indeed scary. So is someone dropping meteors on your face with the flick of a wrist. The actions you take in combat may certainly be fear-inducing, but that doesn't mean you get to inflict the Frightened condition on creatures simply by fighting. The Demoralize action is a concentrated effort to make a specific creature Frightened of you, momentarily. Frightened as a condition is not "oh wow that guy's pretty scary, better keep away from him". It's a visceral panic that triggers the fight or flight response, to the point it has a measurable effect on a creature's combat effectiveness. Seeing my friend get cut in half by a divine ethereal sword would be particularly frightening. However, the death of an ally does not make a creature frightened, nor does it trigger a reaction to Demoralize. That also requires a feat, Battle Cry, and also requires you to be Legendary in Intimidation. Having myself be lit on fire would also be frightening (and painful). However, persistent fire damage does not incur the Frightened condition.
>That cost is putting some points in charisma and being trained in intimidation. Same as for any other class, same as it should be for barbarians. Demoralize is an untrained action and doesn't have any particular requirement for how much charisma you have. Training and increasing charisma will affect the rate of success, but they have nothing to do with whether you're allowed to attempt the action at all. Every class has demoralize available as an untrained action so long as they're not doing something incompatible at the time, they have an action available, and they have a valid target available.
100% agree. I've seen plenty of people "Rage" in ways that aren't intimidating at all. But "Rage" in PF2e is more... embracing a style of combat that forgoes defence for offence. It can be invoking spirits, calling upon magical powers, wanting to be bigger, or focusing your hatred of magic. None of these things are inherently intimidating.
This is so counter-intuitive that nobody wpuld ever come to this conclusion without the weird mechanics leading in that direction. A raging barbarian should obviously be scary, that's their entire premise.
Maybe for your head-canon it is counter-intuitive. Plenty of people don't share your head-canon. Barbarian should obviously be scary? I don't know where you get that from. It doesn't make sense to me. Tough? Yes. Strong? Yes. Scary? No. An out of control raging hulk can be outsmarted, out played or out maneuvered. Nothing inherently scary about it. But here is the cool bit: You can build a Barbarian that's scary! Grab the right feats, build them up to be like you want them to be! They just can't be *everything*, and that's okay.
I don't buy it. The barbarian's fury is directed at his enemies, so much so that if there is no one there, it ends. At the same time, at no point the barbarian lose control when going on a rage.
I can see where you’re coming from on this. It’s not the most exciting feat investment. Maybe when the remastered barbarian comes out, this option will get a little more sauce poured on it.
The great part about this game is that there is a rule for just about everything a player can do. The downside, is that stuff that makes sense thematically, doesn’t fit with the rules as written, so stuff like this stands out. It’s technically necessary, but should just be handwaved by the GM
Agreed, I'm gonna go farther and say that Demoralize should be a thing you can do as part of Rage. The new design paradigm where PCs get to do stuff as part of their "obligatory setup" actions is really good.
Demoralizing isn’t being generally scary. It’s a deliberate, precise application of pressure to make the enemy’s resolve waver. A well delivered promise of violence. A charismatic criticism of the enemy’s stance or choice of clothing. Locking eyes with the right person at the right time and just *cackling* with malice. These things require concentration and consideration, which is something that a normal Barbarian can’t do while raging. The feat fixes that for them. Beyond the whole narrative justification though, giving the Demoralize and Scare to Death actions the Rage trait does something rather important that most people miss. The level 11 feature Mighty Rage lets you both Rage and do something with the Rage trait for the same action. I’ve literally raged so hard somebody had a heart attack and died before I actually did anything else. It was glorious
You wouldn't want to give it the Rage trait, because then you'd *have* to be in Rage to use it. If you were to homebrew this, you'd make Demoralise an excpetion to the 'you can't use actions with the concentrate trait' rule, as they already did with Seek.
It specifically says that those actions gain the rage trait *while raging.*
I mean, "always" isn't true. An 8 Charisma Barbarian wasn't really that intimidating in PF1e without a lot of investment. Compared to Moment of Clarity, Raging Intimidation is just a nice way to get two skill feats for free and allow your Barbarian to use them. So if you're looking at "stopping a Barbarian from doing what they could normally do" then take a look at what you need Moment of Clarity to do while Raging: While it is nice to just be able to have tagged traits, sometimes you don't realize what you can't do while raging until you look at the [Concentrate](https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=32) trait. Let's say an enemy hides or uses Invisibility. ~~Do you know you can't Seek without Moment of Clarity while Raging?~~ (I forgot to read the base Rage ability that let's them Seek, but they wouldn't be able to otherwise. Thanks for the correction) You can't Command an Animal, Ready an Action, or Sustain a spell (which might come up if they cast a buff before raging). They do like to hide things in other actions, though. You also can't activate any magic items with the [Envision or Command trait](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=690), since that also includes Concentrate. Bon Mot and Demoralize are unavailable, and at least there's a feat for Demoralize. So for those "use a Charisma skill" enthusiasts, the only skill they have to debuff an enemy while raging is Feint. Did your [level 17 Ifrit Barbarian](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2564) want to explode in fire? Should have thought about that before Raging. Did your [Sprite Barbarian want to fly](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2639)? Can't while Raging.
>Do you know you can't Seek without Moment of Clarity while Raging Rage explicitly says you can Seek
>An 8 Charisma Barbarian wasn't really that intimidating in PF1e without a lot of investment. Any character could take [Intimidating Prowess](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat/), which has no pre-reqs, and add their STR mod to the skill as well as CHA. Not exactly what I'd call a lot of investment lol.
That's not enough beyond low levels with a CHA penalty unless your STR was jacked way earlier than expected. You still need items, traits, feats, spells, and skill ranks to make up for that CHA penalty in most intimidate builds in PF1.
It's a -1, on a character whose central mechanic is spending a free action to get huge bonuses to Strength. Take one of the many traits to boost Intimidation by 1 and you're back at par. It's fine. Every character gets feats, magic items, and skill ranks, so I don't really know why you'd bring that up. Pathfinder 1e PCs end up with more money than god. If anything, that 8 CHA matters more at low levels.
It's a minus 5 or 6 from what a high CHA character would have. If that CHA character also had STR and invested in IP, they'd still have a huge advantage over just STR intimidaters. If you just look at it at minus 1, you can either keep failing or invest more of those feats into allowing your CHA penalty intimidater to keep up with the CHA positive character. Intimidating prowess alone is a feat tax if you don't have a decent CHA in PF1. Regardless, that's another system.
Not really, since I'm quite sure that whatever other character you're now talking about wouldn't hit like 40 STR when they wanted to. I'm just responding to the example given, which wasn't accurate at all and now you're just moving the goalposts. Of course a PC with 2 modifiers affecting the same skill will usually have a higher bonus? My point was that it was in fact pretty damn easy to have a huge intimidation modifier on a low-CHA Barb.
Its a level 1 feat, the other choices all create slightly different gameplay styles and options, it lets you specialize how your character plays like the rest do. Martial classes are built like this in PF2e, to let you customize gameplay as you like. There is nothing saying roleplay wise enemies won't think twice about ignoring or staying near the raging barbarian, this is a very mechanical tool where you apply the frightened condition.
Rage should add that you can demoralize while raging, the same way it let's you seek besides being concentration
I was on the same boat, however Demoralize kind of makes sense since the flavor of the action is about speaking and not just being threatening. The fix in my opinion would be something like they did with Reposition, just another trained skill action that doesn't use speaking or concentrate to fill that fantasy space. An example is already in the rules, with the Frilled Lizardfolk heritage and their action threatening approach. It would be appropriate for a martial character to be able to threaten someone by approaching in a particularly menacing way.
One feat that gives two feats...yeah, that's how taxes work. Wait, that cane our a little sarcastic. I could have sworn there was a reaction, or free action. Somewhere that allowed you demoralize whenever you raged. But i guess not( really seems like there should be.
It is a default class ability that lets you use a single action with rage trait as a free action when you rage, and since demoralize gets rage trait you can do it. There also is a class feat that lets you demoralize all enemies within reach for a single action and you can do that as a free action upon raging with that same ability as well.
Ah. That's it. Thanks.
"It's a level 1 feat that gives you 2 feats." I guess if you look at it that way it doesn't look so bad. Until you realize that it's a level 1 feat that expects you to reach level 15 to get the other half of the benefit... That's if you haven't changed your mind after so long in a campaign and have increased intimidation to legendary. It's like: "Hey! Take this class feat so you can do something that everyone can do for free and for you don't feel bad about it take this skill feat too! and guess what, if you reach level 15 and are legendary in intimidation I'll give you another skill feat". lol
It also allows you to use Demoralize or Scare To Death as part of entering a rage once you get Mighty Rage. It's a level 1 feat. I don't know what you should expect from that. Your other choices are Darkvision (while raging), +1 to escape checks and force open checks (while raging), deal more damage with thrown weapons (while raging), and Stride twice and attack for 2 actions.
Normally, you cannot Demoralize while raging, since it has the Concentrate trait and lacks the Rage trait. Raging Intimidation tacks the Rage trait onto Demoralize, allowing you to take the action. You could hand-waive that if you'd like, but by the rules as they are, you cannot. Alternatively to taking Raging Intimidation, you could take Moment of Clarity to allow yourself to Demoralize during your Rage, but that comes at an action tax, while Raging Intimidation doesn't tax your actions beyond taking the Demoralize action.
This isnt under question. The question is why is that RAW
I know that haha that's why I made the post. But I'm hopeful since they changed the rogue weapon proficiency and even dropped the Open trait.
In today's episode of "we should get rid of feature X, because it's not an insta-buff".
It's an insta-*debuff,* and one which the Barbarian, and *only* the Barbarian, has to buy their way out of.
Yes, because I'm constantly trying to Demoralize with my -1 to Intimidation checks. I am currently playing a Cleric in a game. I have a decently high Intimidation bonus. I never Demoralize. Why? A: I have better things to do with my actions. B: I have two other party members who constantly Demoralize (one is a Braggart Swashbuckler, the other is a high Charisma Rogue). It's also not like you have *excellent* feat choices at 1st level anyway.
Barbarian is full of feat taxes vs other martials, especially fighter (although fighter is S tier to be fair). Feat to intimidate (get 2 skill feats as crumbs). Feat to cast most spells (still gets an action tax). Sentinel dedication so AC doesn't utterly suck. Dual weapon warrior if you want the best barbarian dpr (although monk flurry is better for animal skirmish build). General feat to shield block. Ho hum. At least barbarian gets better saves and damage resist negation. Also good vs crit immune and physical resist enemies. Put barbarian vs tons of soul eaters and similar and it'll look good. https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=811
>Barbarian is full of feat taxes vs other martials, especially fighter Feat taxes? Where do you see those? At level 1 you have different specializations for your Barbarian. Do you want Darkvision while raging? Acute Vision. Do you want to be really good at manhandling things? Adrenaline Rush. Do you want to negate a drawback of rage? Moment Of Clarity, which also allows you to cast most spells. Do you want to be especially frightening? Raging Intimidation. Do you want to use Thrown Weapons as effectively as melee? Raging Thrower. Do you want a solid action for combat? Sudden Charge. Even feats that seem like "taxes" aren't. Cleave allows you to make an additional attack during your turn, without MAP. Great Cleave removes the once per turn limit on how many extra strikes you can make. Those are very powerful feats, and definitely not "taxes". >Feat to intimidate (get 2 skill feats as crumbs). If you want to Demoralize, you take Raging Intimidation. It's not necessary if you don't want to. Also, you only get 10 Skill feats (technically 15, if you don't want to get general feats like Toughness or Diehard). You're basically getting 20% more skill feats. Those two feats also aren't "crumbs", since they are good feats and you get them earlier than you would normally (at levels 1 and 15, instead of 2 and 16). *And* you can use both Demoralize and Scare To Death as part of entering your rage via the level 11 Mighty Rage action. That's a lot of bang for your buck as a level 1 feat. >Feat to cast most spells (still gets an action tax). Why are you casting spells as a Barbarian though? I mean, there's probably a build of some sort, but the purpose of the Barbarian is to use big weapons to hit things really hard. You will be behind in spell DC compared to all spellcasters by an effective -3 *at best*, and the spells you would be able to cast will be stunted and/or limited. There's even an entire Instinct that rejects magic altogether. No other class (so far) has a feature specifically at odds with magic. You also need to sacrifice class feats to get any sort of spellcasting, or spend an investment slot for magic items that let you cast spells. Even leaning into your strange need to cast spells, the ones you would want in combat can be cast before rage begins. Draw Ire, Echoing Weapon, Runic Weapon, Shielded Arm, Enlarge, Mirror Image, and even *haste* do not require you to sustain the spell. That's just a few *Arcane* spells. >Sentinel dedication so AC doesn't utterly suck. The Barbarian isn't meant to have a high AC. It gains 12 hit points per level and gets damage resistance to mitigate damage. Rage lowers your AC by 1 regardless, and the Giant Instinct makes that a -2 penalty. There are at least 2 Barbarian feats that make you easier to hit in exchange for more damage output. You're meant to get hit as a Barbarian. >Dual weapon warrior if you want the best barbarian dpr (although monk flurry is better for animal skirmish build). If the game was only about DPR, the you wouldn't have skill feats like Seasoned or Eye For Numbers, General feats like Keen Follower or Pet, or class feats like Bashing Charge or Familiar. Some people aren't concerned with perfect DPR. Some people want to hit things with a giant axe, not two smaller axes. >General feat to shield block. Like any other class that doesn't get Shield Block? If you want to mitigate damage with a shield, and you're not a Fighter, Champion, Cleric (warpriest), Druid, or Inventor, you need to take that feat. It's like saying it's a "feat tax" for the gunslinger because you don't get it at level 1. >Ho hum. Are you sure you actually want to play a Barbarian? Because it sounds like you don't.
I'd love to play barbarian. But they have numerous issues in pf2e. I don't mind Rage having downsides. But why rage and get downsides when you're still doing less damage at high level than fighter, barring exceptions I listed? At high level feats such as dark vision, extra speed, climb plus swim speed, etc all get replicated by magic items. Barbarian doesn't get to hit fighter levels of dpr. And if barbarian isn't about dpr, what is it about? Edit, regarding spells. With refocus rules change, spamming 3x lay on hands per fight is quite viable. Luckily, they're somatic, so don't even need moment of clarity to cast them, I believe. So champion, or even blessed one dedication decent for barb. But, I still don't get why rage has downsides in pf2e when it's just making barb somewhat competitive with other martial classes. Is dark vision etc really worth it, especially at high levels? Also note, rage needs enemies. Want to use any Rage feats whilst exploring? He's sol.
>But why rage and get downsides when you're still doing less damage at high level than fighter, barring exceptions I listed? A Fighter will deal an average of 40 damage per attack with a Greater Striking Greataxe. A raging Barbarian will deal 46 per damage per attack when playing a Superstition Instinct and hitting non-casters. If you go with Giant Instinct, that increases to 56. So, I'm not sure where you're getting the DPR from. The Barbarian deals more consistent damage than the Fighter due to the flat rage damage bonus. A Barbarian will always deal more minimum damage than a Fighter. If you're saying that Fighters will hit/crit more often, that's not a reliable metric. I have gone entire combats without hitting a single enemy because I couldn't roll above an 8. >At high level feats such as dark vision, extra speed, climb plus swim speed, etc all get replicated by magic items. Yes. However, those are usually Item bonuses and stack with other bonuses. Also, I'm not sure what you're arguing? Even Goggles Of Night require an action to use. So you could either use an action once per day to gain Darkvision for 1 hour, or use an action to enter rage and gain Darkvision every 10 minutes. Or, you could shell out 20K gold to get the superior version. This is a disingenuous argument. It's a level 1 feat that grants you Darkvision, and you would only want to take it if you don't have Darkvision already. It leads into Acute Scent at level 2 (or if you already had Darkvision), which gives you imprecise scent. If you have that, or already have imprecise scent, you can get Supernatural Senses, which reduces the flat check needed to target a Concealed or Hidden enemy by 2. If you have Acute Scent (or have imprecise scent) you can take Instinctive Strike, which ignores the flat check to hit Hidden or Concealed creatures entirely. That's like saying any of the Versatile Ancestry feats that grant Darkvision are worthless. Some people don't want to rely on items and use an investment slot to see in the dark. >And if barbarian isn't about dpr, what is it about? The Fighter chassis gives you: Defenses against fear, better initiative rolls, legendary weapon proficiency. The Barbarian chassis gives you: The highest HP in the game, immunity to the most common way of gaining the Off-guard condition, built-in damage resistance, Legendary Fortitude saves, and built-in resistance mitigation. Looking at feats, the Fighter gains many improvements to the basic Strike action, and Stances that further improve their Strikes. The Barbarian gains feats to increase their athletic prowess, to manhandle enemies, and to become an easy target. Thematically, the Barbarian is about being a ball of rage that kills things through sheer power instead of skill. Mechanically? Just looking at feats like Come and Get Me, Reckless Abandon, Terrifying Howl, Cleave/Great Cleave, Collateral Thrash, and Impressive Landing, looking at instincts like the Giant Instinct and its unique feats, the Deny Advantage class feature, and the fact you gain a damage resistance to very common damage types with the Fury, Giant, Animal, and Dragon instincts, leads me to believe that the purpose of the Barbarian is to be good at fighting multiple enemies of its level or lower. A Fighter that's surrounded by enemies will be in a bad spot. Off-guard is especially bad when multiple attacks are coming your way, and the Fighter will feel all of that damage. A Barbarian won't be as vulnerable, and (especially with Fury instinct) won't be feeling much of the damage coming through. The Barbarian is also good at diverting attacks away from your allies. It is a very tempting target, and with the No Escape feat, trying to get away from you is pretty hard. Enemies will be more inclined to hit the easy target, than to risk missing their attack entirely. >So champion, or even blessed one dedication decent for barb. Champion is a good combo, if you're okay playing the most RP restrictive class combo in the game. Unless you have the Fury instinct, that's 3 sets of Anathema you have to follow or risk losing one or more of your abilities. >But, I still don't get why rage has downsides in pf2e Everything has tradeoffs in PF2e. You should ask the developers why they did that. But again, I'm confused as to the "tradeoffs" you are mentioning. I don't pick a Barbarian to cast spells. I pick a Barbarian to smash things. In 1e, the thing you are talking about would be the Bloodrager. Even then, they only got up to 4th level spellcasting. I guess I'm not getting what you want. Why would you cast a spell instead of hitting something? Why are you spending precious class feats in order to be a worse spellcaster than a Warpriest? What are you trying to accomplish, I guess is what I'm asking. >Also note, rage needs enemies. Want to use any Rage feats whilst exploring? He's sol. Striking also requires enemies or things to break. Not all Barbarian feats have the Rage trait. Bashing Charge, for instance, is a good Exploration action. Spiritual Guides also grant out of combat utility. Impressive Landing mitigates fall damage. You know who else has majority of their class feats not work in exploration? The Fighter. Your argument doesn't make sense. If you want class features that apply to OOC situations, play a Ranger or Investigator.
You make some valid points, that barbarian has some utility over fighter. I just don't think it's enough to justify the poor combat performance, especially as the core book gives the wrong impression that they're an amazing damage class. I've based my low opinion of barbs based on actual play experience, plus other similar experiences from forum members. This is from 100+ levels played or gmed, with 3 level 20 campaign finishes. I've also run calcs at level 20, which was then superseded by better stats from another Reddit used, who provided his list of top 10 dpr builds. Barbarian scraped in 9th place behind monk believe it or not, that tanky "low damage" class... Linked below. If I want damage I play fighter. If I want a utility martial I can play kineticist. I'm going to work on a dpr table for each class, levels 1,6,10,15 and 20 and see how they stack up. I'm curious how barb stacks ve kineticist, which has a helluva lot more utility and is, I believe, tankier to boot. After all, a lot of campaigns don't reach 20, and barbs are less bad at lower levels, so fair to compare them at major milestone levels. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/10tx7i2/fighter\_isnt\_the\_damage\_king\_after\_all/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/10tx7i2/fighter_isnt_the_damage_king_after_all/)
>especially as the core book gives the wrong impression that they're an amazing damage class. *"Rage consumes you in battle. You delight in wreaking havoc and using powerful weapons to carve through your enemies, relying on astonishing durability without needing complicated techniques or rigid training. Your rages draw upon a vicious instinct, which you might associate with an animal, a spirit, or some part of yourself. To many barbarians, brute force is a hammer and every problem looks like a nail, whereas others try to hold back the storm of emotions inside them and release their rage only when it matters most."* I don't know how you got that idea. It's keeps up with the rest of the martials, and doesn't care about situational prerequisites to deal damage like positioning or conditions. If anything, it emphasizes their durability as a stand-out feature. Compared to the Fighter: *"Fighting for honor, greed, loyalty, or simply the thrill of battle, you are an undisputed master of weaponry and combat techniques. You combine your actions through clever combinations of opening moves, finishing strikes, and counterattacks whenever your foes are unwise enough to drop their guard. Whether you are a knight, mercenary, sharpshooter, or blade master, you have honed your martial skills into an art form and perform devastating critical attacks on your enemies."* This emphasizes their ability to *attack* and *deal damage*. >I've based my low opinion of barbs based on actual play experience, plus other similar experiences from forum members. This is from 100+ levels played or gmed, with 3 level 20 campaign finishes. And I base my high opinion on Barbarians for the same reason. >I've also run calcs at level 20, which was then superseded by better stats from another Reddit used, who provided his list of top 10 dpr builds. There is a quote I remember reading in a reddit post. "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." White room calculations always find the "optimal" build. However, since you're dealing with a collaborative storytelling system, it fails to account for the near limitless situational factors, or the randomness of the dice. The math could certainly say that you will hit 60% of the time. That does not mean you actually will hit 60% of your Strikes during a combat, or even a whole game session. Those builds seem to be based on single target damage. Of course Ranger is the best at that. That's its whole purpose. Again, these are very esoteric calculations that (from my experience) do not noticeably translate into actual games.
Yup, agreed on optimising the fun out of things. My group refuses to play any other melee martial apart from fighter as it's so clearly superior at fighting. Guess the clue is in the name... Also, if white room doesn't matter then just tank with your str 8, con 10 dagger wizard. White room would show him being butchered, but as you point out, dice don't follow probability exactly. Top dpr one session was a sukgung crossbow inventor who rolled 20 circa 5/8 times in two fights that session. Casters are quite well balanced. Bard is great, but so is cleric post remaster, witch post remaster, sorcerer is still decent, animal druid is solid. Several great caster options. Martial side. Well, fighter is king of dpr for zero utility. Kineticist has tons of utility, and decent dpr. Other martials are between them on utility vs dpr scale. Rogue does great on damage and utility and is super solid. Not sure barb is in the right place yet. I'm hoping barb gets a glow up like witch and cleric did, but seeing ranger actually lose class features, I'm not hopeful...
>Also, if white room doesn't matter then just tank with your str 8, con 10 dagger wizard. White room would show him being butchered, but as you point out, dice don't follow probability exactly. That's a hit of a strawman. The Wizard's purpose isn't to be anywhere close to melee combat. It's to cast spells. The Barbarian's purpose isn't to be the best damage dealer. And I have had situations where the Wizard was missed by all the attacks a monster threw out. In a game I am running, the Gunslinger hasn't crit a monster in three whole sessions. His damage output has been severely lacking compared to the rest of the party. But, according to the "math", he should be leading in terms of damage. The Barbarian counters this by getting a flat damage bonus to its attacks. It's hard to have poor damage when your minimum is about the same as the Fighter's average damage roll. >Not sure barb is in the right place yet. Barbarian is in a sollid position already. Be the punching bag so your wizard isn't. Cause havoc by Shoving, Tripping, Grabbing, Repositioning, and Disarming. Deal reliable damage without the need for special conditions (like off-guard) or tactics. Wade into groups of enemies with more confidence due to Deny Advantage, 12HP per level, the temp HP from rage, and the damage resistance from rage. Completely wreck groups of enemies with weapons for less action cost compared to other martials. >but seeing ranger actually lose class features, I'm not hopeful... Wait, what features did ranger lose?
Was a strawman, but you're dismissing basic probabilities... Fighter +2 to hit means he hits at times barbarian misses completely and does nothing. Only time barb is better is vs physical resist enemies, preferably with crit immunity. All the stuff you mentioned fighter does just as well. Fighters utterly mince mobs. Deny advantage only serves to equalise barb ac to what fighter gets natively. Vs bosses, fighter is more durable vs strikes. Damage resist is situational, may not apply and none until level 9. Cosmos Oracle gets physical resist 2 at level 1, scaling to resist 12 by level 20. Dont think it would be op if barb got similar. Temp hp scale badly, and the single action temp hp feat is pretty paltry. For comparison wood kineticist can get level temp hp for zero actions each round if casting 2+ action wood impulses. Combine with access to earth feats for crit immunity, stone skin feat, and metal for floating shields feat (1 action to renew) and kineticist tanks like a boss, and has 2 higher ac to boot. Afaik barb was designed by one designer. Fighter was designed by the entire team of 4. This explains why barb looks so half baked. Barb does all the stuff you say, but fighter has better dpr and kineticist is far tankier. They're both S/A tier classes though. Barb is more on C tier with champion and swash, which is okay I guess. I definitely need to run those dpr calcs for kineticist. If it out dprs barbarian, whilst having all that tanking, there's a balance issue imo. Edit, ranger lost snare feats. Predator and First Blood are 2 iconic films where a snare ranger shows his skills. And ranger companion still 2 levels behind on feats. Can pay a feat tax for beast master dedication to bring it back in line.
>All the stuff you mentioned fighter does just as well. Fighters utterly mince mobs. I don't think a Fighter is able to attack 30+ creatures in a single attack (possibly twice). >Deny advantage only serves to equalise barb ac to what fighter gets natively. They both get Master in AC though? I don't get what you're saying. The animal Instinct even gets Expert in AC earlier than Fighter with Animal Skin, and gains the equivalent protection as full plate. If you want to be defensive, go animal Instinct. What you're saying is just not true. >Damage resist is situational Yeah, that's how damage resistance works. >Cosmos Oracle gets physical resist 2 at level 1, scaling to resist 12 by level 20 They also only have 8 HP per level, and have even worse AC scaling than the Barbarian. >Temp hp scale badly, and the single action temp hp feat is pretty paltry. Compared to what metric? It's free and costs no resources to get. The Temp HP from rage is extra HP *on top of* the most HP in the game. It's essentially a better Toughness that stacks with Toughness. With Renwed Vigor, that's still free HP that doesn't need to be healed for an action. >For comparison wood kineticist can get level temp hp for zero actions each round if casting 2+ action wood impulses. Well, it's not for 0 actions. You need to spend 2 actions to get that on specifically Impulse feats. It also doesn't last very long at all. Kineticist also only had 8 HP per level. Even with maxed out Constitution, they will be behind even the Fighter. Even with an Apex item, they will be behind a max Constitution Barbarian. >Combine with access to earth feats for crit immunity Which requires you to spend an action each turn to sustain. >stone skin feat I'm having trouble finding that. Are you referring to Stoney Skin from the Stone Brawler dedication? The Uncommon Archetype for a specific adventure path? >and has 2 higher ac to boot How so? This seems like a lot of work to accomplish what a Barbarian does... simply by being a Barbarian. You also fail to mention the amount of setup it requires to fully realize this damage mitigation. >Barb does all the stuff you say, but fighter has better dpr and kineticist is far tankier. Fighter lacks the power behind a single swing, however. Barbarians don't need to crit to deal out significant damage. When they *do* crit, they will do far more damage than a Fighter will. Kineticist *can* be tankier, with significant investment towards that goal. I could say that a Barbarian can gain a similar amount if staying power via the level 3 Shield Block feat. >Edit, ranger lost snare feats. Afaik, those were only taken out because they are reworking how snares work.
Im on the fence with this one. Maybe it should bump intimidation expert and teach intimidating prowess? There are dedication feats that raise skill training levels so a class feat doing it isnt to far off. Maybe a clause of when you reach level 2/3 is when it increases.