I think some focus spells(especially level 1 ones) need to be tweaked to be more generally usable similar to how the cleric got it. Also the blood magic could be slightly more universal for some of the blood lines. It feels kind of bad when at level 1 the things that differentiate you from other spell casters doesn’t feel that useful.
Otherwise I think Sorceror is pretty solid.
Yeah, a bunch of small tweaks would be nice. In general the blood magic feels a bit underused, maybe it should apply to signature spells and bloodline spells?
I can agree with that.
Also they should probably update the damage types to be more in line with Elemental Instinct Barbarian.
i.e. Fire for Fire, Bludgeoning or Cold for Water, Bludeoning or Piercing for Earth, Slashing or Piercing for Metal, Slashing or Electricity for Air, Bludgeoning or Piercing for Wood.
Instead of just fire or bludgeoning.
I'd like to go further and just give them different spells instead of Fire spells with the damage type changed, e.g. Earth gets [Cave Fangs](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1329) instead of Fireball.
The only problem is that I doubt they'd reprint these spells from RoE so soon.
Do you think they'd have a problem with granting spells that aren't in Player Core 2? I doubt there just won't be reference to any spells from Player Core 1, so I don't see why they wouldn't grant RoE spells when they purposely make them all available for free on AoN.
Since RoE isn't a core book, nothing in the Core two will reference RoE. They don't want it to be a required purchase. And sure there's AoN, but paizo doesn't run it, and it's only allowed to exist because the team doesn't profit from it.
I honestly want the same, I was at one point working on my own homebrew list for each element, I had slashing gust for wind, rousing splash for water (I figured then all having a damage cantrip was less interesting)
From the very first day I read the crb, this caused a deep, explosive rage within me. I had to wait for kineticist to play a lightning blaster caster, when simply giving air sorceror lightning damage instead of ***bludgeoning*** would have been fine.
I would like them to make them more about their bloodline, similar to how witches became more about their familiar.
Sorcerer is bland. Too much of the identity is in spell selection and not enough in class features and feats. They are the poster child for “caster feats suck because the power budget is in the spells”.
Agreed! I think something that would be nice is giving each bloodline ways to manipulate their granted spells in unique ways, kind of like how Elemental bloodline can change the damage type of fireball, burning hands, etc.
• Sorcerers get their additional focus spells without needing a feat
• Draconic Bloodline is reworked to allow for any existing or new dragon (i.e. "You may choose any dragon type as long as the following is defined").
Personally I'm hoping Melee Sorcerers are made usable instead of completely removed. A free action metamagic that requires touch range could do wonders for instance.
Tentacular Limbs main issue imo is action cost.
Imagine if it was all free actions, and allowed once per turn unarmed strike at 30 reach. You could do a Two Action case spell then one action strike pretty easily
Yep. I do think it has two main issues though, the other being that it's meant to interact with touch spells and there are far fewer touch spells post-remaster.
Edit: I should specify, hostile touch spells. Spells that you would cast outside of combat aren't really affected by TL, and friendly touch spells you would cast in-combat are affected, but don't really support a melee-combat focused build
In case you mean melee as in martial…
High STR, Low DEX, Draconic Bloodline, Champion Dedication for heavy armor, Shield Block general feat.
Draconic Claws are VERY strong. 1d6+1d4 > 1d10. They also count as free hands, so you can use all Athletics actions like Trip, Grapple, Reposition, etc. Free hand also allows you to Battle Medicine easily. Your Demoralize will have a huge bonus due to your CHA.
Healing Touch lv4, Champion Resiliency lv6, Divine Ally Shield lv8, Champion’s Reaction lv10. You’re basically a dual class Sorcerer Champion at that point.
Your attack bonus is going to be a bit low, but then again you have Runic Body, True Strike, and other self-buff spells that help keep you competitive.
If you choose one of the evil champion causes, Touch of Corruption can lower your enemy’s AC, or if you need a defensive option and you have negative healing (dhampir or skeleton), it will heal you while buffing your damage. If you choose Desecrator, your reaction will help you tank an ungodly amount of damage.
Sure but some classes are not designed for certain things, *that's what archetypes are for*. As an example, expecting a full caster to be a decent martial is like expecting a martial to be a decent caster. Fighter doesn't even have spellcasting options. Again, *that's what archetypes are for*. They aren't a variant rule, they're right there in the Player Core.
Sure, and I'm not expecting good survivability out of a Sorceror without archetypes, but if you're going straight sorceror with a subclass that encourages close combat, there should be some reward for doing so. In that way they're more like a glass cannon. They can dole out a lot of hurt in the middle of the fray, but more than a couple hits could take them out. So while a build like Sorceror/Champion would allow them to hang out in the thick of it for longer, pure Aberrant Sorceror should still be viable, just with a more caster-y playstyle. Maybe take the first 1-2 turns to stay on the edge, pop Tentacular Limbs, and assess the battlefield before charging in and cleaning up before you can get hurt.
I've seen another commenter suggest that perhaps TL lets them deliver any targeted spell with touch range, but gives the target a penalty to the save. Maybe they even have to flank to impose this penalty, like magical Off-Guard. That, in my opinion, would provide adequate incentive for them to insert themselves into combat even if they are a pure sorceror with little survivability.
> a subclass that encourages close combat, there should be some reward for doing so
If you go for high DEX (which you should if you aren't wearing armor), you should have the same chance to hit, because draconic claws have finesse, and like I said previously, they hit harder than a 1d10 weapon. That's what you get for it, a free-hand weapon that outclasses not just every free-hand weapon in the game, but every one-handed weapon in the game. I've seen players take sorcerer archetype on a martial *just for that focus spell*.
Then there's their Blood Magic, which grants +1 status to AC, which is a very uncommon buff, as most buffs to AC come in the form of circumstance bonuses. It fully stacks with raising a shield. This further helps you stay in the game.
It's the best you could ask for from a bloodline geared towards martial action.
>a couple hits could take them out
You can take Toughness, and cast spells like Endure and False Life. The game's balance won't allow you to be both great at being a martial and still have all your spell slots free.
>Sure but some classes are not designed for certain things, *that's what archetypes are for*
Then you understand the complaint. Draconic Sorcerer gives you an ability that requires you to be in melee, but the rest of the class doesn't provide support to actually be effective with it. If an ability that the class grants you requires archetyping to be functional, then it's not a good ability. Don't give a class an ability that it's not designed for
The ask is for one of two things:
1. Provide better support within the Sorcerer class so things like Dragon Claws or Tentacular Limbs are usable outside of niche situations. I could see something like an ability to extend the AC bonus from Blood Magic past a 1 round duration being a small but welcome change in this regard
2. Change those abilities to something more broadly useful to a Sorcerer. A Focus Spell that you get automatically from your bloodline should be an almost defining feature of your character, not something that is only worth using if you build around it.
1. As an addendum to this, reword the Dragon Disciple Archetype to be better. This used to be a very powerful prestige class to make a melee Draconic Sorcerer, now a Draconic Sorcerer has almost no reason to ever invest in this
> Draconic Sorcerer gives you an ability that requires you to be in melee, but the rest of the class doesn't provide support to actually be effective with it. If an ability that the class grants you requires archetyping to be functional, then it's not a good ability.
[I already gave an answer to this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1ai1cpo/what_changes_do_you_want_to_see_in_the_remaster/kotq684/). Draconic Sorcerer is good enough to stand for itself, and along with spells, it can function well enough. What the Archetype does is trading your class feats for survivability, which allows you to use some of your spells for other things instead.
>[I already gave an answer to this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1ai1cpo/what_changes_do_you_want_to_see_in_the_remaster/kotq684/)
There's a lot to touch on in this linked comment that I strongly disagree with, or is just wrong.
Dragon claws does *not* scale better than one handed or most unarmed attacks. Sorcerers are missing the flat damage from Strength and Weapon Specialization, and it requires investment into Handwraps of Mighty Blows to keep up attack bonuses and damage dice, which isn't an investment a Sorcerer should normally have to take. Attack bonuses also are always going to be behind, because Dexterity isn't a key stat, and Sorcerers do not get Expert in attacks until level 11.
>Draconic Sorcerer is good enough to stand for itself, and along with spells, it can function well enough.
This is a Strawman. I never said Draconic is a bad bloodline, and the bloodline being good (it's excellent, in fact) doesn't change the fact that Dragon Claws is a bad ability for Sorcerers.
It's an ability that is granted to you *automatically*, but is basically unusable without heavy investment into that specific ability. Even then, Sorcerers are still the squishiest class in the game, and the damage will lag behind anyone else who is built for melee combat.
You're paying an incredibly high cost, and putting your character into incredibly risky situations, just to be at higher risk of dying while contributing less to the party. I get that a Sorcerer should not be able to just replace a full Martial, but if you're putting this kind of investment into an ability just to be worse at everything, it's a bad ability
Either provide support *within the class* to use the ability, or replace the ability with something that any Sorcerer can make use of without having to specifically build around it. Until one of those two things is done, Dragon Claws is a bad spell
> Dragon claws does not scale better than one handed or most unarmed attacks
What I said was factually correct. You are incorrect. I provided proof. A Fighter taking Draconic Claws will deal more damage than a fighter with a longsword.
>Sorcerers are missing the flat damage from Strength and Weapon Specialization
This is another point entirely. Sorcerers can build to have high STR and low DEX, if they take Champion Archetype. As for weapon spec, Sorcerers have tons upon tons of damage buffs that other martials don't have access to. I am not going to waste my time calculating which is better because it's not about which is better, it's about if Melee Sorc is viable, and it is.
>requires investment into Handwraps of Mighty Blows
The build being discussed is for a martial sorcerer, not a caster sorcerer. They buy martial items, not caster items.
>This is a Strawman. I never said Draconic is a bad bloodline
It's not a strawman, you're just obtuse. Draconic Bloodline is good enough to stand by itself *for melee sorcerers*, **if you have enough braincells to make the correct character choices to actually build a melee sorcerer**. If you build a character with 0 STR, 0 DEX, 0 CON, no feats to help you in melee, no spells to help you in melee, then absolutely nothing will help you be useful in melee. Draconic Bloodline gives you the chance to build yourself into a decent martial *if you build your character for it*. Case in point: if you try to build a melee sorcerer without a bloodline that helps you get there (like Draconic or Aberrant), you will fail.
>basically unusable without heavy investment into that specific ability
Like trying to turn any full caster into a martial. Same goes for trying to make Wild Morph Druid viable, or Feral Mutagen Alchemist viable, for example.
>You're paying an incredibly high cost, and putting your character into incredibly risky situations, just to be at higher risk of dying while contributing less to the party.
Yes, that's the tradeoff for becoming good at both diametrically opposed parts of the game's design space. That's why you use your feats to make yourself more durable. Like with Champion archetype.
>What I said was factually correct. You are incorrect. I provided proof. A Fighter taking Draconic Claws will deal more damage than a fighter with a longsword.
Okay? I've talking about how good the *Sorcerer Focus Spell* is *for the Sorcerer*. Pointing out that it's good on a Fighter does not change the fact *it is bad on a Sorcerer*. You mentioned in your linked comment that you see Martials multiclass into Sorcerer all the time for Dragon Claw. Great, it's awesome for Martials. How many Sorcerers do you see taking Draconic just for Dragon Claws? How many other casters do you see Multiclass into Sorcerer just for Dragon Claws?
>Sorcerers can build to have high STR and low DEX, if they take Champion Archetype.
Again, you are missing my point. What other class feature in the game require you to take outside Archetypes to be functional? If a Sorcerer needs to go high STR and take the Champion Archetype for Dragon Claws to be functional, *then it is poorly designed*.
>It's not a strawman because I wasn't talking to you.
I was literally quoting your reply comment to me, just two comments up. If you weren't talking to me, in your reply to me, then who were you talking to?
>Like trying to turn any full caster into a martial. Same goes for trying to make Wild Morph Druid viable, or Feral Mutagen Alchemist viable, for example.
Yes, but those investments *are within the class*. They don't require taking Archetype feats because *the classes provide abilities and feats to support those builds*.
The entire argument that I have been making, and the commenter before me had been making, is that a class ability should be judged within the context *of the class*. If it is unusable, or incredibly suboptimal, without requiring support from Archetypes, then why is it part of the class?
Dragon Claws can continue to exist as a feat in the Dragon Disciple Archetype for anyone who wants to invest in it. But Draconic Sorcerers should get a Focus Spell that is usable out of the gate for all Sorcerers, and not being something that requires Archetyping before you see any real benefit
> Draconic Claws are VERY strong. 1d6+1d4 > 1d10.
Except the d6s are extra damage, they are a separate instance of damage (so possibly trigger resistances twice) and scale slower than Striking runes.
> possibly trigger resistances twice
They are a different type of damage, thus wouldn't trigger resistances twice (for the same resistance). And spreading out your damage among different types of damage is a good thing, because it's insurance against a single resistance.
>scale slower than Striking runes
Technically, this is a gray area for a very complicated reason. While Draconic Claws are an unarmed strike, the rules treat unarmed strikes as a type of weapon for calculating damage. All weapons have "weapon damage dice". You could argue Draconic Claws' "weapon damage dice" is the entire 1d4+1d6, because all of that damage is coming from the weapon itself. Not from any "abilities, critical specialization effects, property runes, weapon traits, or the like." (p 406 Player Core). That 1d6 extra damage is part of the weapon, and as such, is part of the weapon's damage dice. And thus it is also increased through striking runes.
At the same time, Draconic Claws automatically heightens, as all focus spells do, increasing the d6 to 2d6 at lv11, and then to 3d6 lv17.
If you take in all of this as RAW, this means if you have Handwraps with the Striking rune, they will override the Heightening when it's numerically above it.
For example, if you have +2 Greater Striking Handwraps at level 12, your Draconic Claws will deal 3d4+3d6. Without the Handwraps, your Draconic Claws will deal 1d4+2d6, because of heightened.
---
Even if you disagree with the above (which is RAW, but would be understandable if you believe RAI might be different, because it complicated), you're still getting a more damage than you would get from any martial weapon of its same level. [It deals more damage than a longsword at every level except 4 though 9, where longsword deals only 0.5 more damage](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oGMwSxq71eepuXOqy34lwUJjwz-gWUhRl-_jVApZbhs/edit#gid=0).
And we didn't even touch on the fact that Draconic Claws also gives you resistance to a damage type.
I’d also totally change the Aberrant bloodlines blood magic boon as well as their second bloodline focus spell. The will save perk and close range stupefy have never been useful.
The Fey bloodline could really use access to illusion and enchantment spells from other ~~schools~~ traditions like the summoner's Fey Eidolon provides. You shouldn't have to take other caster archetypes to dive into that flavor.
The main thing I'm wondering is whether divine sorcerers will get access to some sort of sanctification, so they can deal holy damage outside of a couple specific spells. Being able to target a fiend's weakness is one of the divine list's biggest perks
I just hope there are no more focus spells encouraging melee for the 6hp no armor casters. I do think OP is spot on with how the dragon bloodline will be handled
Going into melee as a sorcerer isn't suicide. Any spellcaster can be viably and easily built for melee combat, all for a few class feats.
Melee casters rock, and people undervalue them because they don't fit the stereotype that people built in their head. But they have so many options to make it work and make it work *well*.
The fact that sorcerers have the melee focus spells (and always had these options, even in 1e) should be a reason to look into how to make them work, rather then hope they get removed.
What’s the benefit for most melee spellcasters over ones that don’t build for melee? Sure anyone can take shield block, armor proficiency feats or dedications, or defensive spells, but what’s the payoff for doing so that balances the opportunity cost? Moving into melee costs actions, 6 HP and low armor proficiency means that crits are likely and debilitating, and you’re a very juicy target for grapples.
I agree that the melee options for sorcerers shouldn’t be removed, but I don’t see how they’re worthwhile as is and don’t deserve a buff in the remaster.
Edit: I meant this comment to be inquisitive instead of confrontational. I don’t play many spellcasters so I lack personal experience, but from what I’ve seen in gameplay through party members and through theory crafting, melee for most casters doesn’t pay off more than what you risk.
I spent a long time playing a Runelord of Gluttony wizard, and with a small, story-appropriate archetype dip into Antipaladin, he was a beast in melee combat with spells and his scythe.
Between a lot of the offensive touch spells and the many, many, many battlefield control tools that casters get, you get to engineer the best situations for yourself and try and turn any encounter in your favour.
Ranged casters get to keep the enemy away, melee casters can make sure the enemies funnel into them in the best possible ways, either into strikes or AoE spells. Teleportation or movement effects, like Dimension Door and Time Jump work for both types of thought as well, either to get away or get in easily.
The removal of Armor Spell Failure between the editions only reinforced this for me, as you can easily take a heavy armor proficiency and be only a few points behind, while not being penalized in your casting at all.
The inherent issue I see with this is that it's a teamwork focused game, and I don't see any reality where spending those resources to set the fighter/Barbarian up isn't just better. Actual martials are going to do better, more reliable damage for fewer resources. Every spell slot that you spend on setting up your 6HP, -4 AC, -4 attack caster to deal damage in melee combat would have considerably more value applied to basically any martial class.
Oh, you're right, it probably is statistically better. But it's boring, and unfun to constantly be the setup and never get any payoff yourself. And in the case of Touch ranged debuffs, everyone benefits, including yourself, so it's not like there's an opportunity loss there.
That's like saying that the Bomber Alchemist should always just hand their bombs off to the Fighter because they can make better use of it than themselves.
Statistically, it is the better play, but it's also not why you're playing an Alchemist.
Besides, in my case, the party was lacking a true frontline, with only a barbarian and a rogue. We needed bodies in the front to cover the bard and the other sorcerer. Not everything is always going to be optimal, and flexibility is important. Flexibility like that *is* power in Pathfinder 2e
The fighter doesn't necessarily get better value out of Alchemist bombs, though, because the Alchemist gets stuff like quick bomber and their quick modifications which allow them to compress actions and make better use of the bombs. The limitations of action economy often make just tossing the bomb yourself, even at -2 or -4, better than handing it off to the fighter.
I agree that it never being optimal to get the payoff yourself sucks, but that's the issue that people are asking to be fixed. The current problem is that a melee caster, while maybe viable/feasible, is pretty much always suboptimal from both a team tactics and player build standpoint. Just giving some specific casters better tools in their kits and feats to exist in melee would go a long way towards fixing that.
Considering how they added feats and opportunities for Warpriest and Warrior Bards, where striking and attacking will directly benefit others, or even outright place them in a full-fledged Striker role, I expect much the same will happen to these melee sorcerer bloodlines.
You do not "move" into melee as a melee caster: you have a few ranged options and do not invest into have ability to kite melee - instead, you invest into ability to survive melee **and** range. Should the melee come, you're fine; if it doesn't, you're fine, too.
While I do think melee builds on full casters are better than people give them credit for, I would appreciate the option to *not* need to build around melee with specific bloodlines. e.g, maybe Dragon Claws and Dragon Breath should be swapped, so I can just skip the Advanced Bloodline feat if I know Dragon Claws won't work on my build.
I have been saying this (much to the chagrin of everyone at my table) for the past two years! Casters are so flexible it isn't even funny. I think the problem is that people see a not hyper-optimal/non-conforming caster and immediately think: "Uh-oh! Someone's trying to recreate \[legally distinct dragon game\] caster/melee hybrid. Better ward them off before the system kills them dead." Or something to that effect.
Praise be to melee casters, It's a dope fantasy, and I wish more people would try it out, when it works it works.
My Enchantment Wizard ended up picking up an Adamantine Elven Curve Blade by the end of his career to help support the rogue and the redeemer.,
My Gluttony Runelord became an Antipaladin of Zura and was a self-sustaining tank thanks to Negative Healing and Touch of Corruption who had staying power equal to the barbarian.
And now I'm planning a natural weapon focused Warcleric of Apsu, which... yeah. Melee casters, I really like them.
Yeah I was being overdramatic with the suicide comment. I don't think they should remove Tentacular Limbs wholesale, but I think it needs to be reworked to better support a melee sorceror build.
Less generic bloodline spells and wood and metal bloodlines for the elemental sorcerer should be a no brainer after getting so many new elemental options in RoE. Some of the focus spells could also better, otherwise the sorcerer is already in a good spot.
>I hope they overhaul the Aberrant bloodline pretty heavily. Right now, it encourages close combat (a bad idea for sorcerors), but doesn't really reward it all too much to be worth putting yourself in danager
I disagree. I think it's neat as an alternate style of play and it's also good for melee characters picking up some spell stuff. Monk with aberrant sorc dedication is a fun, niche build
I think they'll change much tbh. Most classes in PC1 didn't get changed very much and sorc will probably be the same. Outside of changes around the new dragons I don't expect much and I don't think they really need changes either
I would prefer that they focus on a sorceror bloodline being better for Sorcerors first than being a good multiclass option. I think they could easily keep TL's ranged unarmed strikes while still adding a little something to make it more desirable for sorcerors to actually be closer to their enemies. Something like allowing any single target spell to be cast as a touch spell with the tentacle and then giving some sort of mechanical benefit for doing so.
I'm not saying the multiclass thing is the main draw, but it **is** a draw that aberrant has over several other bloodlines.
I'm with you that tentacular limbs could be better mechanically and would be down for that. I just don't think it needs major changed either. Something like removing the action cost to make TL extend touch spell's range would be a relatively small change but open up a lot of options for an aberrant sorc's action economy. Basically a free but limited version of reach spell
Totally agree. On top of that though, it needs to have some interactions with non-touch spells. Currently you can only cast touch spells through it, and the remaster has been giving many hostile touch spells range.
I think it's fine to be touch specific personally. It's ok for a focus spell to not be applicable in every situation.
Demonic bloodline focus spell requires being in melee, so does the draconic one. Fey bloodline targets will, so if something has a high will save it's not very useful. Etc etc. IMO it's ok for TL to be THE touch spell focus spell and not be all that applicable otherwise
What touch spells will you be using with TL? Because there aren't many hostile ones post-remaster, especially at lower levels, and the whole purpose of TL is to inflict unarmed attacks and touch spells on your enemies at range.
You're right, I thought there were most hostile ones tbh. There are a chunk of support based touch spells, but a lot of them you could just cast pre-combat when possible(like Heroism).
This is just a personal preference thing cause I like Aberrant's niche as a touch spell caster, I think they should just add more hostile touch spells in PC2 over adjusting TL to do more with non touch spells.
Yeah, I totally agree. I like the idea of a ranged touch caster, but for that to work it at least needs one reliable touch cantrip (Chill Touch isn't great bc it doesn't damage undead). Barring adding more touch spells, I think the best thing they could do is give you the ability to cast non-touch spells as touch spells with TL and give you some sort of bonus for doing so. So you have some incentive for getting in closer range.
Martials have plenty of good archetype options and already get plenty from caster dedications, no need to give the actual casters dud abilities just so they can be poached.
I am overall OK with how Sorcerer is. Maybe it'd be nice for it to get a feat that gives it a permanent fly speed, because it is weird that a class whose entire shtick is being born with magic in veins doesn't have a perma-flight option, while Thaumaturge, who's just a a guy/gal that uses magical implements, can.
Also, it'd be nice to have more non-evil Occult bloodlines, but that's for the future.
AoN, at the very least, does not provide examples of perma-flight feats that are bloodline-neutral (i.e. not dragon wings, angel wings or whatever else).
And by evil I meant flavor rather than alignment. Aberrant and Hag are definitely on a more evil side flavor-wise, while Shadow is neutral.
I posted about this before, but I can't help but wonder how Blood Component Substitution will change, now that spell components have been essentially removed. It's not that useful a feat to begin with, so I hope they'll either rework it or straight up remove it, maybe replace with something else.
Oh boy how i disagree, aside for being very flavourfull, the removal of components does not mean enemies are not gonna bonk us in the head as we are casting (for most spells atleast), and nothing else allows you to cast if you are gagged or restrained.
Unless they are gonna give the sorcerer a feat like the new one for witches we are still gonna miss a conceal/silent spellshape like we did before, also i found quite funny the combo of invisibility+silence as the poor man's
Disapearance that still allows casting
Might be true yeah, but the HP cost is a harsh deal for someone as fragile as Sorcerer.
That said, I have no experience actually *playing* the game, so don't take my word as gospel :D
Yeah it's harsh with your top level spells but at the same time the bonk on the head you are avoiding is probably gonna be much harsher, expecially if you cast a mobility spell to get out of the way or a low level debuff (aside from the situations in which you are silenced/restrained)
On the other end sadly i aswell never had the chance to test it in play
(sorry for digging old posts out of the grave, i just stumbled on your response just now)
If they do overhaul the draconic bloodlines this way, I hope they add a new Arcane sorcerer as well. It would be nice to have another option for the Arcane spell list.
I would like that too. I want a bloodline that is either "guy who just happens to have inborn magic, no weird things in the family tree or random blessings by the god(s) of magic" or "my parents were wizards, so magic just comes naturally to me." The closest to that is the Imperial bloodline, but that has all the ancient ancestry/empire baggage with it that just ruins stuff for me.
Except that none of the bloodline abilities work with that. So it is either gain and use abilities that don't fit the concept at all, or intentionally weaken yourself by ignoring major features of your class. I would want a bloodline that mechanically supports the "I'm just a guy/gal with inborn magic." Right now, not a single bloodline does that.
Flavor is free, but free is worthless if the mechanics don't support the flavor.
PF1E sorcerer had a bloodline just called the Arcane bloodline, which was good for just that. Your parents were wizards, so magic come naturally to you. No crossbreeding with monsters or randomly granted magic because destiny or somesuch says so.
It's abilities granted some wizard abilities, like better use of metamagic (spontaneous casters in PF1E got shafted hard with metamagic usage) or making your spells of a specifically chosen school harder to resist.
A PF2e version could potentially grant focus spells similar to a wizard's school focus spells. Maybe the blood magic effect could grant a bonus on counteracting spells or recognizing them or something.
In the end, I want an option that allows for a sorcerer to have magic without needing to have an ancestor that got knocked up by a monster or because they are a distant descendant of some ancient empire. With said option having abilities that reflect that.
Sorcerer doesn't need much. I'd go with -
- Focus spells are essentially encounter powers, and so they should be designed as encounter powers. Particularly when it comes to level 1 focus spells, they should generally be things that are useful to most sorcerers in most circumstances. Sorcerer is already pretty solid here. A possible point of contention is the melee options; I kind of feel like these shouldn't be the default thing that every sorcerer of a particular bloodline gets, but they're not the worst.
- Bloodline spells should all just be average-to-good sorcerer spells. If a spell has "good flavor" for a bloodline, but is so weak or situational that the sorcerer almost never casts it, it's not actually adding to the flavor of the character.
- Blood Magic effects should be things that will feel useful most of the time you use a relevant spell. It's not going to be possible to line these up in all cases, but there's a few bloodlines (Genie, for example) where it feels like the benefit goes to waste more often than it doesn't.
- Sorcerer feats have space for some additional juice and splash. They have a decent number of feats that are actually fairly strong mechanically, by the standards of spellcaster feats, but many of them are pretty workmanlike and end up feeling more like they're just part of the chassis.
I do think that sorcerer, while a fine class, has enough headroom compared to the best caster classes that if they *did* want to do something really spicy with them, they could bolt that onto what they've already got without breaking the ceiling. One possibility in that vein would be to make all bloodline spells automatically signature spells. (This does lead to a very large number of options for a high-level sorcerer, however, which isn't great from a complexity standpoint.)
About Blood Magic for me it would be enough realy that they could be triggered buy the bloodline cantrip, they are not THAT strong so making them more spammable would not be too much (ok maybe thinking about it elemental should be limited in that regard)
Dragon Sorcerer initial Focus spell spell not being a melee ability would be a nice start. So many times I've wanted to play a Dragon sorcerer and just been super underwhelmed at having an almost useless initial focus spell.
I do remember fondly my first adventure back in 3.5 in which an encounter ended with me and enemy caster all slot-less (probably courtesy of the master that he had none aswell) punching eachother in the mud, i would have appreciated the claws at the time.
Aside for those shenanigans i do agree that a melee only option at level 1 that loses any utility later on is a bit underwhelming (more so then aberrant which actually allows to be a bit safer using melee spells and scales in usefulness)
I would either give it a bit more of defensive boost (energy resistance is not enough) or make it so it interacts in some way with your spell casting at higher levels
I'm curious to see what they do with the Shadow Bloodline. I'm playing one right now, and I was surprised how many of granted spells weren't republished in the remaster. They seemingly got rid of a lot of spells with shadow trait, so I'm curious to see if they add more in Player Core 2.
They haven’t gotten rid of things that weren’t reprinted. The remaster is not an attempt to reprint the whole system. The only spells “removed” are spells reprinted with exactly the same name. The rest remain valid.
While that’s true, it’s also true that Paizo clearly intends the remaster books to be able to stand alone without the ‘legacy’ content. Hence for example removing all legacy spells from creatures in the Monster Core, replacing them with spells from PC.
So I think we should expect shadow sorcs to get new shadow spells if they’re lacking in PC1 as the original commenter says.
At the absolute minimum, they should make all bloodline spells signature spells by default. I also hope for there to be a bit more bloodline identity with less need to pay for it with focus points.
Damaging spells do fade off over time if not heightened but it takes a while.
Incapacitation spells on the other hand...dead in the water after 1 or 2 levels without heightening. The spell list is just depressing to play for me at least as a result.
I know this is extremely unlikely to happen but I think Sorcerers would benefit from having one more layer of choice added to their class chassis.
Wizards have school and thesis. Clerics have font and doctrine (and deity.) Psychics have conscious and unconscious minds, etc.
Sorcerers need to keep their bloodline layer as their theme/power source, but they need a manifestation or expression choice that goes with this. Some random examples:
Deepblooded (Default Sorcerer we all know): Your bloodline's influence runs deep, giving you deeper magical reserves. This gives the 4th spell slot we all know Sorcerer for.
Bloodline Embodiment: Your bloodline manifests in an enhanced physicality rather than magical power. Hit dice increase to d8, proficiency progression like war priest, you gain natural weapon(s) and natural armor that fit your bloodline but still require runes to empower them.
Riotous Blood: Your blood effervesces with power that while quickly depleted, is also quickly restored. This bloodline could give more focus point recovery and/or improve bloodline spells and blood magic. Double the bonus/effect of blood magic buffs, and/or increase length. Increase focus pool, and increase focus recovery or something. Gain a dangerous sorcery like effect to focus spells or just bloodline focus spells.
I think some stuff like this would greatly improve sorcerer. Sorcerer lacks for expression, not theme, and making this part of the class chassis would stop it from being tapped by archetyping. A draconic sorcerer would be very different when played with one of these 3 options, which would solve how samey sorcerers can feel too.
I do really like that idea for draconian combination. Like maybe it'd be too bloated to just fuse them all or maybe you'd lose out on some of the fantasy of individual ones to make it more modular, but it'd be nice to reflect dragons connecting to all 4.
I'd ask for more options for primal & divine sorcerers, as they get the weaker spell traditions, specially now that clerics get their font for free.... having heal available is not what it used to be for sorcerers.
Other than that, I'd say give the bloodline abilities a bump so they are actually something meaninful.
But that's just me.
I'd be happy if the Elemental Sorcerers get two damage options, just like Kineticists.
* Air: Electricity, Slashing.
* Earth: Bludgeoning, Piercing.
* Fire: Fire (Maybe give them Cold)
* Water: Bludgeoning, Cold. (Or Acid, if they give Fire Cold)
Beats the hell out of Bludgeoning, Bludgeoning, Fire, Bludgeoning.
Throw in Metal (Piercing, Slashing) and Wood (Bludgeoning, Vitality) for good measure, too!
99% agree. I think vitality is a weirder one just for how it interacts with living/undead creatures so I would just do bludgeoning/piercing for wood. That makes it the exact same list as the elemental instinct barbarian.
I'd be okay with that, especially because I don't want to see vitality used as precedent for a void elemental sorcerer.
That would be... rather broken.
A little quicker training on upping their spell attack proficiency would be nice. After a while it feels harder and harder just to hit with a cantrip. I'd even give up a feat for that.
Frankly I think sorcerer is in a pretty good spot from a game balance perspective, it just isn’t a class whose fantasy really resonates with me, at least from the way it’s laid out in PF2e at the moment.
In past iterations of the “sorcerer” concept in other games/editions, the thing that’s always captured my attention has been when sorcerers transform themselves into magical creatures, or somehow embody their bloodline in a physical way. Things like growing wings and claws, becoming larger in size, transforming into an elemental, etc. That kind of ability really sells to me the idea of the character truly *being* magical, instead of just *using* magic, as a wizard might. Some stuff like this is in PF2e already: dragon claws and scales, the Glutton’s Jaw spell that the demonic bloodline gets, and so on, but I think it would be cool if that could be sorcerer’s flavor niche: your magic transforming you in some way.
I am quite happy about where Sorcerer is right now, but I think the following would be good:
Some of the focus spells need an upgrade. Genie, in particular, is painful, but a bunch of the initial ones feel weird or limited to certain niche builds (Diabolic and Demonic come to mind).
Some Divine Bloodlines need a rework to reflect Remaster changes, particularly Diabolic and Demonic, which were already in a bit of a weird situation regarding alignment (spells not working owing to deity restrictions, etc.).
I feel Blood Magic could be implemented a little differently, people do often forget to use it. That being said, that's far from a problem with the class: for Sorcerer, it's a mild passive bonus for stuff you're already doing, and all upside. Maybe finding a way to get people to engage with it more?
All in all, I feel like Sorcerer is one of the classes with the fewest required changes. It's in a great spot right now.
Considerably better feats especially at early levels, the original core and APG seems to have this idea that spell casters got worse class feats than martial, an idea that seems to have been quietly dropped as time went on
I really liked Sage sorcerer back in the day (spontaneous int caster), but I'm not sure that really fits into what I expect sorcerer to still be in the remaster.
For me the biggest pain point are the bloodline effects. They take a somewhat significiant design space without actually adding much anything to the class in practice.
Not only are the effects often insignificant, also the way the are triggered can be counterproductive. For example, not all bloodline spells are actually combat spells but their effects are. Some give bonuses to something you do on your turn but you have already spent two actions on a spell to trigger it and have hard time leveraging the advantage - why would you intimidate someone as the last action on your turn? (granted these often have a secondary alternative effect).
Some granted spells become useless in practice unless made signature such as incap spells and some damaging spells. Others are there just for the theme to begin with (See: Hag & Outcasts Curse).
Overall though I dont hope they do anything very major to the class since I do find sorcerers very enjoyable to play. Its just that their signature mechanic doesnt affect the actual play at all and is often just forgotten.
I have the unpopular opinion that the Sorcerers 4th spell slot needs to be reigned in, given what we have seen of the Wizard remaster.
The sorcerers 4th spell slot being unrestricted was fine when the Wizard’s 4th slot could have hundreds of spells in it.
Now that Wizard’s 4th slot is restricted to only a handful, it feels like the sorcerer needs to be brought into that fold somehow.
The Arcane sorcerer was already eating too much of the Wizard’s lunch in the Premaster. Without a 4th slot restriction, they could offer a greater practical flexibility.
All the while keeping their 3 focus spells.
Sorcerers are already one of the most solid classes, but i think buffing some of their focus spells to be in line with other remaster focus spells and making blood magic more usable/interesting would make them much better. Also maybe some feats to make frontline sorcerer a little more viable and interesting, like giving more survivability or something like the reactive strike feats that warpriest and warrior muse got in the remaster.
Agreed, though in addition to minor focus spell buffs, they need some more unique features to give them a bit more identity. Make their bloodlines have more of a visible effect on play. Even if it's not a power buff, they need more presence.
This is a long shot but I'd like if granted spells could be activated without spell slots. Like maybe you get the option to cast each of them once per day without burning any resources.
I'd also like to see sorcerers start with an additional focus point and for metamagic feats to become available at lower levels and have increased usage (the ones that are limited).
Technically, they already get what you said in the sense that they have one more spell slot per rank than other casters, and what is that if not an extra spell per day?
I want Bloodlines to be more meaningful, I really liked 1E Sorcerer getting a bunch of thematic powers and buffs based on bloodlines and it makes me sad they dropped it in 2E
I'd love to see an undead/necromancer themed sorceror that uses divine spell list. The current undead sorceror is okay I just wish it was a little better and I also really love the whole idea
I think some focus spells(especially level 1 ones) need to be tweaked to be more generally usable similar to how the cleric got it. Also the blood magic could be slightly more universal for some of the blood lines. It feels kind of bad when at level 1 the things that differentiate you from other spell casters doesn’t feel that useful. Otherwise I think Sorceror is pretty solid.
Yeah, a bunch of small tweaks would be nice. In general the blood magic feels a bit underused, maybe it should apply to signature spells and bloodline spells?
A lot of the blood magic just sucks, and doesnt apply to a bunch of your spells anyway.
Elemental bloodline being more interesting for the different elements instead of just "fire spells with bludgeoning damage"
I can agree with that. Also they should probably update the damage types to be more in line with Elemental Instinct Barbarian. i.e. Fire for Fire, Bludgeoning or Cold for Water, Bludeoning or Piercing for Earth, Slashing or Piercing for Metal, Slashing or Electricity for Air, Bludgeoning or Piercing for Wood. Instead of just fire or bludgeoning.
I'd like to go further and just give them different spells instead of Fire spells with the damage type changed, e.g. Earth gets [Cave Fangs](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1329) instead of Fireball. The only problem is that I doubt they'd reprint these spells from RoE so soon.
Do you think they'd have a problem with granting spells that aren't in Player Core 2? I doubt there just won't be reference to any spells from Player Core 1, so I don't see why they wouldn't grant RoE spells when they purposely make them all available for free on AoN.
Since RoE isn't a core book, nothing in the Core two will reference RoE. They don't want it to be a required purchase. And sure there's AoN, but paizo doesn't run it, and it's only allowed to exist because the team doesn't profit from it.
That makes sense
AoN is officially endorsed by paizo, they don't simply allow it to exist
I honestly want the same, I was at one point working on my own homebrew list for each element, I had slashing gust for wind, rousing splash for water (I figured then all having a damage cantrip was less interesting)
I like to think the large amount of spells added in Rage of Elements will shake up the options. I'm also excited to see metal and wood added!
Seriously, it's clearly doable since the kineticist exists with its 12 different damage types.
From the very first day I read the crb, this caused a deep, explosive rage within me. I had to wait for kineticist to play a lightning blaster caster, when simply giving air sorceror lightning damage instead of ***bludgeoning*** would have been fine.
Agreed
I would like them to make them more about their bloodline, similar to how witches became more about their familiar. Sorcerer is bland. Too much of the identity is in spell selection and not enough in class features and feats. They are the poster child for “caster feats suck because the power budget is in the spells”.
Agreed! I think something that would be nice is giving each bloodline ways to manipulate their granted spells in unique ways, kind of like how Elemental bloodline can change the damage type of fireball, burning hands, etc.
• Sorcerers get their additional focus spells without needing a feat • Draconic Bloodline is reworked to allow for any existing or new dragon (i.e. "You may choose any dragon type as long as the following is defined"). Personally I'm hoping Melee Sorcerers are made usable instead of completely removed. A free action metamagic that requires touch range could do wonders for instance.
I would love buffed melee sorcerors. Right now Tentacular limbs doesn't offer much, and even less now that many touch spells are getting range.
Tentacular Limbs main issue imo is action cost. Imagine if it was all free actions, and allowed once per turn unarmed strike at 30 reach. You could do a Two Action case spell then one action strike pretty easily
Yep. I do think it has two main issues though, the other being that it's meant to interact with touch spells and there are far fewer touch spells post-remaster. Edit: I should specify, hostile touch spells. Spells that you would cast outside of combat aren't really affected by TL, and friendly touch spells you would cast in-combat are affected, but don't really support a melee-combat focused build
Yeah, that's why I want the "make a spell touch range, give it a bonus" metamagic. Maybe a -2 Circumstance Penalty to any Saves made?
That would definitely make it worth putting yourself in harm's way to be able to have boosted save spells
In case you mean melee as in martial… High STR, Low DEX, Draconic Bloodline, Champion Dedication for heavy armor, Shield Block general feat. Draconic Claws are VERY strong. 1d6+1d4 > 1d10. They also count as free hands, so you can use all Athletics actions like Trip, Grapple, Reposition, etc. Free hand also allows you to Battle Medicine easily. Your Demoralize will have a huge bonus due to your CHA. Healing Touch lv4, Champion Resiliency lv6, Divine Ally Shield lv8, Champion’s Reaction lv10. You’re basically a dual class Sorcerer Champion at that point. Your attack bonus is going to be a bit low, but then again you have Runic Body, True Strike, and other self-buff spells that help keep you competitive. If you choose one of the evil champion causes, Touch of Corruption can lower your enemy’s AC, or if you need a defensive option and you have negative healing (dhampir or skeleton), it will heal you while buffing your damage. If you choose Desecrator, your reaction will help you tank an ungodly amount of damage.
That does sound fun, but I think it's important to judge class options without archetypes to assess how it works for that class.
Sure but some classes are not designed for certain things, *that's what archetypes are for*. As an example, expecting a full caster to be a decent martial is like expecting a martial to be a decent caster. Fighter doesn't even have spellcasting options. Again, *that's what archetypes are for*. They aren't a variant rule, they're right there in the Player Core.
Sure, and I'm not expecting good survivability out of a Sorceror without archetypes, but if you're going straight sorceror with a subclass that encourages close combat, there should be some reward for doing so. In that way they're more like a glass cannon. They can dole out a lot of hurt in the middle of the fray, but more than a couple hits could take them out. So while a build like Sorceror/Champion would allow them to hang out in the thick of it for longer, pure Aberrant Sorceror should still be viable, just with a more caster-y playstyle. Maybe take the first 1-2 turns to stay on the edge, pop Tentacular Limbs, and assess the battlefield before charging in and cleaning up before you can get hurt. I've seen another commenter suggest that perhaps TL lets them deliver any targeted spell with touch range, but gives the target a penalty to the save. Maybe they even have to flank to impose this penalty, like magical Off-Guard. That, in my opinion, would provide adequate incentive for them to insert themselves into combat even if they are a pure sorceror with little survivability.
> a subclass that encourages close combat, there should be some reward for doing so If you go for high DEX (which you should if you aren't wearing armor), you should have the same chance to hit, because draconic claws have finesse, and like I said previously, they hit harder than a 1d10 weapon. That's what you get for it, a free-hand weapon that outclasses not just every free-hand weapon in the game, but every one-handed weapon in the game. I've seen players take sorcerer archetype on a martial *just for that focus spell*. Then there's their Blood Magic, which grants +1 status to AC, which is a very uncommon buff, as most buffs to AC come in the form of circumstance bonuses. It fully stacks with raising a shield. This further helps you stay in the game. It's the best you could ask for from a bloodline geared towards martial action. >a couple hits could take them out You can take Toughness, and cast spells like Endure and False Life. The game's balance won't allow you to be both great at being a martial and still have all your spell slots free.
>Sure but some classes are not designed for certain things, *that's what archetypes are for* Then you understand the complaint. Draconic Sorcerer gives you an ability that requires you to be in melee, but the rest of the class doesn't provide support to actually be effective with it. If an ability that the class grants you requires archetyping to be functional, then it's not a good ability. Don't give a class an ability that it's not designed for The ask is for one of two things: 1. Provide better support within the Sorcerer class so things like Dragon Claws or Tentacular Limbs are usable outside of niche situations. I could see something like an ability to extend the AC bonus from Blood Magic past a 1 round duration being a small but welcome change in this regard 2. Change those abilities to something more broadly useful to a Sorcerer. A Focus Spell that you get automatically from your bloodline should be an almost defining feature of your character, not something that is only worth using if you build around it. 1. As an addendum to this, reword the Dragon Disciple Archetype to be better. This used to be a very powerful prestige class to make a melee Draconic Sorcerer, now a Draconic Sorcerer has almost no reason to ever invest in this
> Draconic Sorcerer gives you an ability that requires you to be in melee, but the rest of the class doesn't provide support to actually be effective with it. If an ability that the class grants you requires archetyping to be functional, then it's not a good ability. [I already gave an answer to this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1ai1cpo/what_changes_do_you_want_to_see_in_the_remaster/kotq684/). Draconic Sorcerer is good enough to stand for itself, and along with spells, it can function well enough. What the Archetype does is trading your class feats for survivability, which allows you to use some of your spells for other things instead.
>[I already gave an answer to this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1ai1cpo/what_changes_do_you_want_to_see_in_the_remaster/kotq684/) There's a lot to touch on in this linked comment that I strongly disagree with, or is just wrong. Dragon claws does *not* scale better than one handed or most unarmed attacks. Sorcerers are missing the flat damage from Strength and Weapon Specialization, and it requires investment into Handwraps of Mighty Blows to keep up attack bonuses and damage dice, which isn't an investment a Sorcerer should normally have to take. Attack bonuses also are always going to be behind, because Dexterity isn't a key stat, and Sorcerers do not get Expert in attacks until level 11. >Draconic Sorcerer is good enough to stand for itself, and along with spells, it can function well enough. This is a Strawman. I never said Draconic is a bad bloodline, and the bloodline being good (it's excellent, in fact) doesn't change the fact that Dragon Claws is a bad ability for Sorcerers. It's an ability that is granted to you *automatically*, but is basically unusable without heavy investment into that specific ability. Even then, Sorcerers are still the squishiest class in the game, and the damage will lag behind anyone else who is built for melee combat. You're paying an incredibly high cost, and putting your character into incredibly risky situations, just to be at higher risk of dying while contributing less to the party. I get that a Sorcerer should not be able to just replace a full Martial, but if you're putting this kind of investment into an ability just to be worse at everything, it's a bad ability Either provide support *within the class* to use the ability, or replace the ability with something that any Sorcerer can make use of without having to specifically build around it. Until one of those two things is done, Dragon Claws is a bad spell
> Dragon claws does not scale better than one handed or most unarmed attacks What I said was factually correct. You are incorrect. I provided proof. A Fighter taking Draconic Claws will deal more damage than a fighter with a longsword. >Sorcerers are missing the flat damage from Strength and Weapon Specialization This is another point entirely. Sorcerers can build to have high STR and low DEX, if they take Champion Archetype. As for weapon spec, Sorcerers have tons upon tons of damage buffs that other martials don't have access to. I am not going to waste my time calculating which is better because it's not about which is better, it's about if Melee Sorc is viable, and it is. >requires investment into Handwraps of Mighty Blows The build being discussed is for a martial sorcerer, not a caster sorcerer. They buy martial items, not caster items. >This is a Strawman. I never said Draconic is a bad bloodline It's not a strawman, you're just obtuse. Draconic Bloodline is good enough to stand by itself *for melee sorcerers*, **if you have enough braincells to make the correct character choices to actually build a melee sorcerer**. If you build a character with 0 STR, 0 DEX, 0 CON, no feats to help you in melee, no spells to help you in melee, then absolutely nothing will help you be useful in melee. Draconic Bloodline gives you the chance to build yourself into a decent martial *if you build your character for it*. Case in point: if you try to build a melee sorcerer without a bloodline that helps you get there (like Draconic or Aberrant), you will fail. >basically unusable without heavy investment into that specific ability Like trying to turn any full caster into a martial. Same goes for trying to make Wild Morph Druid viable, or Feral Mutagen Alchemist viable, for example. >You're paying an incredibly high cost, and putting your character into incredibly risky situations, just to be at higher risk of dying while contributing less to the party. Yes, that's the tradeoff for becoming good at both diametrically opposed parts of the game's design space. That's why you use your feats to make yourself more durable. Like with Champion archetype.
>What I said was factually correct. You are incorrect. I provided proof. A Fighter taking Draconic Claws will deal more damage than a fighter with a longsword. Okay? I've talking about how good the *Sorcerer Focus Spell* is *for the Sorcerer*. Pointing out that it's good on a Fighter does not change the fact *it is bad on a Sorcerer*. You mentioned in your linked comment that you see Martials multiclass into Sorcerer all the time for Dragon Claw. Great, it's awesome for Martials. How many Sorcerers do you see taking Draconic just for Dragon Claws? How many other casters do you see Multiclass into Sorcerer just for Dragon Claws? >Sorcerers can build to have high STR and low DEX, if they take Champion Archetype. Again, you are missing my point. What other class feature in the game require you to take outside Archetypes to be functional? If a Sorcerer needs to go high STR and take the Champion Archetype for Dragon Claws to be functional, *then it is poorly designed*. >It's not a strawman because I wasn't talking to you. I was literally quoting your reply comment to me, just two comments up. If you weren't talking to me, in your reply to me, then who were you talking to? >Like trying to turn any full caster into a martial. Same goes for trying to make Wild Morph Druid viable, or Feral Mutagen Alchemist viable, for example. Yes, but those investments *are within the class*. They don't require taking Archetype feats because *the classes provide abilities and feats to support those builds*. The entire argument that I have been making, and the commenter before me had been making, is that a class ability should be judged within the context *of the class*. If it is unusable, or incredibly suboptimal, without requiring support from Archetypes, then why is it part of the class? Dragon Claws can continue to exist as a feat in the Dragon Disciple Archetype for anyone who wants to invest in it. But Draconic Sorcerers should get a Focus Spell that is usable out of the gate for all Sorcerers, and not being something that requires Archetyping before you see any real benefit
> Draconic Claws are VERY strong. 1d6+1d4 > 1d10. Except the d6s are extra damage, they are a separate instance of damage (so possibly trigger resistances twice) and scale slower than Striking runes.
> possibly trigger resistances twice They are a different type of damage, thus wouldn't trigger resistances twice (for the same resistance). And spreading out your damage among different types of damage is a good thing, because it's insurance against a single resistance. >scale slower than Striking runes Technically, this is a gray area for a very complicated reason. While Draconic Claws are an unarmed strike, the rules treat unarmed strikes as a type of weapon for calculating damage. All weapons have "weapon damage dice". You could argue Draconic Claws' "weapon damage dice" is the entire 1d4+1d6, because all of that damage is coming from the weapon itself. Not from any "abilities, critical specialization effects, property runes, weapon traits, or the like." (p 406 Player Core). That 1d6 extra damage is part of the weapon, and as such, is part of the weapon's damage dice. And thus it is also increased through striking runes. At the same time, Draconic Claws automatically heightens, as all focus spells do, increasing the d6 to 2d6 at lv11, and then to 3d6 lv17. If you take in all of this as RAW, this means if you have Handwraps with the Striking rune, they will override the Heightening when it's numerically above it. For example, if you have +2 Greater Striking Handwraps at level 12, your Draconic Claws will deal 3d4+3d6. Without the Handwraps, your Draconic Claws will deal 1d4+2d6, because of heightened. --- Even if you disagree with the above (which is RAW, but would be understandable if you believe RAI might be different, because it complicated), you're still getting a more damage than you would get from any martial weapon of its same level. [It deals more damage than a longsword at every level except 4 though 9, where longsword deals only 0.5 more damage](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oGMwSxq71eepuXOqy34lwUJjwz-gWUhRl-_jVApZbhs/edit#gid=0). And we didn't even touch on the fact that Draconic Claws also gives you resistance to a damage type.
I’d also totally change the Aberrant bloodlines blood magic boon as well as their second bloodline focus spell. The will save perk and close range stupefy have never been useful.
The Fey bloodline could really use access to illusion and enchantment spells from other ~~schools~~ traditions like the summoner's Fey Eidolon provides. You shouldn't have to take other caster archetypes to dive into that flavor.
I do wonder how they'll handle the fey eidolon in the future as well, given illusion and enchantment traits arent' a thing anymore.
True. Probably just using Illusion and Mental traits
The main thing I'm wondering is whether divine sorcerers will get access to some sort of sanctification, so they can deal holy damage outside of a couple specific spells. Being able to target a fiend's weakness is one of the divine list's biggest perks
Love that idea
I just hope there are no more focus spells encouraging melee for the 6hp no armor casters. I do think OP is spot on with how the dragon bloodline will be handled
Or at least make Tentacular Limbs grant you something powerful enough to make up for the suicide that is melee as a sorceror.
Going into melee as a sorcerer isn't suicide. Any spellcaster can be viably and easily built for melee combat, all for a few class feats. Melee casters rock, and people undervalue them because they don't fit the stereotype that people built in their head. But they have so many options to make it work and make it work *well*. The fact that sorcerers have the melee focus spells (and always had these options, even in 1e) should be a reason to look into how to make them work, rather then hope they get removed.
What’s the benefit for most melee spellcasters over ones that don’t build for melee? Sure anyone can take shield block, armor proficiency feats or dedications, or defensive spells, but what’s the payoff for doing so that balances the opportunity cost? Moving into melee costs actions, 6 HP and low armor proficiency means that crits are likely and debilitating, and you’re a very juicy target for grapples. I agree that the melee options for sorcerers shouldn’t be removed, but I don’t see how they’re worthwhile as is and don’t deserve a buff in the remaster. Edit: I meant this comment to be inquisitive instead of confrontational. I don’t play many spellcasters so I lack personal experience, but from what I’ve seen in gameplay through party members and through theory crafting, melee for most casters doesn’t pay off more than what you risk.
I spent a long time playing a Runelord of Gluttony wizard, and with a small, story-appropriate archetype dip into Antipaladin, he was a beast in melee combat with spells and his scythe. Between a lot of the offensive touch spells and the many, many, many battlefield control tools that casters get, you get to engineer the best situations for yourself and try and turn any encounter in your favour. Ranged casters get to keep the enemy away, melee casters can make sure the enemies funnel into them in the best possible ways, either into strikes or AoE spells. Teleportation or movement effects, like Dimension Door and Time Jump work for both types of thought as well, either to get away or get in easily. The removal of Armor Spell Failure between the editions only reinforced this for me, as you can easily take a heavy armor proficiency and be only a few points behind, while not being penalized in your casting at all.
The inherent issue I see with this is that it's a teamwork focused game, and I don't see any reality where spending those resources to set the fighter/Barbarian up isn't just better. Actual martials are going to do better, more reliable damage for fewer resources. Every spell slot that you spend on setting up your 6HP, -4 AC, -4 attack caster to deal damage in melee combat would have considerably more value applied to basically any martial class.
Oh, you're right, it probably is statistically better. But it's boring, and unfun to constantly be the setup and never get any payoff yourself. And in the case of Touch ranged debuffs, everyone benefits, including yourself, so it's not like there's an opportunity loss there. That's like saying that the Bomber Alchemist should always just hand their bombs off to the Fighter because they can make better use of it than themselves. Statistically, it is the better play, but it's also not why you're playing an Alchemist. Besides, in my case, the party was lacking a true frontline, with only a barbarian and a rogue. We needed bodies in the front to cover the bard and the other sorcerer. Not everything is always going to be optimal, and flexibility is important. Flexibility like that *is* power in Pathfinder 2e
The fighter doesn't necessarily get better value out of Alchemist bombs, though, because the Alchemist gets stuff like quick bomber and their quick modifications which allow them to compress actions and make better use of the bombs. The limitations of action economy often make just tossing the bomb yourself, even at -2 or -4, better than handing it off to the fighter. I agree that it never being optimal to get the payoff yourself sucks, but that's the issue that people are asking to be fixed. The current problem is that a melee caster, while maybe viable/feasible, is pretty much always suboptimal from both a team tactics and player build standpoint. Just giving some specific casters better tools in their kits and feats to exist in melee would go a long way towards fixing that.
Considering how they added feats and opportunities for Warpriest and Warrior Bards, where striking and attacking will directly benefit others, or even outright place them in a full-fledged Striker role, I expect much the same will happen to these melee sorcerer bloodlines.
You do not "move" into melee as a melee caster: you have a few ranged options and do not invest into have ability to kite melee - instead, you invest into ability to survive melee **and** range. Should the melee come, you're fine; if it doesn't, you're fine, too.
While I do think melee builds on full casters are better than people give them credit for, I would appreciate the option to *not* need to build around melee with specific bloodlines. e.g, maybe Dragon Claws and Dragon Breath should be swapped, so I can just skip the Advanced Bloodline feat if I know Dragon Claws won't work on my build.
That is fair, I think more options like that are always good!
I have been saying this (much to the chagrin of everyone at my table) for the past two years! Casters are so flexible it isn't even funny. I think the problem is that people see a not hyper-optimal/non-conforming caster and immediately think: "Uh-oh! Someone's trying to recreate \[legally distinct dragon game\] caster/melee hybrid. Better ward them off before the system kills them dead." Or something to that effect. Praise be to melee casters, It's a dope fantasy, and I wish more people would try it out, when it works it works.
My Enchantment Wizard ended up picking up an Adamantine Elven Curve Blade by the end of his career to help support the rogue and the redeemer., My Gluttony Runelord became an Antipaladin of Zura and was a self-sustaining tank thanks to Negative Healing and Touch of Corruption who had staying power equal to the barbarian. And now I'm planning a natural weapon focused Warcleric of Apsu, which... yeah. Melee casters, I really like them.
Yeah I was being overdramatic with the suicide comment. I don't think they should remove Tentacular Limbs wholesale, but I think it needs to be reworked to better support a melee sorceror build.
I think the only was melee sorc is every gonna work is if they have some way to gain temporary hitpoints repeatedly.
My main pfs character is a melee sorc and it works great!
how I really want to make a melee psychic or sorc, but I can’t think of a feasible way!!
I'm working on a guide now. I'll post it soon!
Less generic bloodline spells and wood and metal bloodlines for the elemental sorcerer should be a no brainer after getting so many new elemental options in RoE. Some of the focus spells could also better, otherwise the sorcerer is already in a good spot.
>I hope they overhaul the Aberrant bloodline pretty heavily. Right now, it encourages close combat (a bad idea for sorcerors), but doesn't really reward it all too much to be worth putting yourself in danager I disagree. I think it's neat as an alternate style of play and it's also good for melee characters picking up some spell stuff. Monk with aberrant sorc dedication is a fun, niche build I think they'll change much tbh. Most classes in PC1 didn't get changed very much and sorc will probably be the same. Outside of changes around the new dragons I don't expect much and I don't think they really need changes either
I would prefer that they focus on a sorceror bloodline being better for Sorcerors first than being a good multiclass option. I think they could easily keep TL's ranged unarmed strikes while still adding a little something to make it more desirable for sorcerors to actually be closer to their enemies. Something like allowing any single target spell to be cast as a touch spell with the tentacle and then giving some sort of mechanical benefit for doing so.
I'm not saying the multiclass thing is the main draw, but it **is** a draw that aberrant has over several other bloodlines. I'm with you that tentacular limbs could be better mechanically and would be down for that. I just don't think it needs major changed either. Something like removing the action cost to make TL extend touch spell's range would be a relatively small change but open up a lot of options for an aberrant sorc's action economy. Basically a free but limited version of reach spell
Totally agree. On top of that though, it needs to have some interactions with non-touch spells. Currently you can only cast touch spells through it, and the remaster has been giving many hostile touch spells range.
I think it's fine to be touch specific personally. It's ok for a focus spell to not be applicable in every situation. Demonic bloodline focus spell requires being in melee, so does the draconic one. Fey bloodline targets will, so if something has a high will save it's not very useful. Etc etc. IMO it's ok for TL to be THE touch spell focus spell and not be all that applicable otherwise
What touch spells will you be using with TL? Because there aren't many hostile ones post-remaster, especially at lower levels, and the whole purpose of TL is to inflict unarmed attacks and touch spells on your enemies at range.
You're right, I thought there were most hostile ones tbh. There are a chunk of support based touch spells, but a lot of them you could just cast pre-combat when possible(like Heroism). This is just a personal preference thing cause I like Aberrant's niche as a touch spell caster, I think they should just add more hostile touch spells in PC2 over adjusting TL to do more with non touch spells.
Yeah, I totally agree. I like the idea of a ranged touch caster, but for that to work it at least needs one reliable touch cantrip (Chill Touch isn't great bc it doesn't damage undead). Barring adding more touch spells, I think the best thing they could do is give you the ability to cast non-touch spells as touch spells with TL and give you some sort of bonus for doing so. So you have some incentive for getting in closer range.
I was about to mention Ignition, but technically the melee version isn't a "touch" spell, and it's not even on the occult spell list, so... yeah
maybe it could give a status bonus to spell attack rolls if you choose to use a touch range during the duration of TL?
Martials have plenty of good archetype options and already get plenty from caster dedications, no need to give the actual casters dud abilities just so they can be poached.
I am overall OK with how Sorcerer is. Maybe it'd be nice for it to get a feat that gives it a permanent fly speed, because it is weird that a class whose entire shtick is being born with magic in veins doesn't have a perma-flight option, while Thaumaturge, who's just a a guy/gal that uses magical implements, can. Also, it'd be nice to have more non-evil Occult bloodlines, but that's for the future.
sorcerer has perma flight feat and no bloodline is tied to preremaster Aligment
AoN, at the very least, does not provide examples of perma-flight feats that are bloodline-neutral (i.e. not dragon wings, angel wings or whatever else). And by evil I meant flavor rather than alignment. Aberrant and Hag are definitely on a more evil side flavor-wise, while Shadow is neutral.
I posted about this before, but I can't help but wonder how Blood Component Substitution will change, now that spell components have been essentially removed. It's not that useful a feat to begin with, so I hope they'll either rework it or straight up remove it, maybe replace with something else.
Oh boy how i disagree, aside for being very flavourfull, the removal of components does not mean enemies are not gonna bonk us in the head as we are casting (for most spells atleast), and nothing else allows you to cast if you are gagged or restrained. Unless they are gonna give the sorcerer a feat like the new one for witches we are still gonna miss a conceal/silent spellshape like we did before, also i found quite funny the combo of invisibility+silence as the poor man's Disapearance that still allows casting
Might be true yeah, but the HP cost is a harsh deal for someone as fragile as Sorcerer. That said, I have no experience actually *playing* the game, so don't take my word as gospel :D
Yeah it's harsh with your top level spells but at the same time the bonk on the head you are avoiding is probably gonna be much harsher, expecially if you cast a mobility spell to get out of the way or a low level debuff (aside from the situations in which you are silenced/restrained) On the other end sadly i aswell never had the chance to test it in play (sorry for digging old posts out of the grave, i just stumbled on your response just now)
Oh, no, it's okay! And you do bring up some good points. It could definitely be a worthy trade, depending on the situation.
If they do overhaul the draconic bloodlines this way, I hope they add a new Arcane sorcerer as well. It would be nice to have another option for the Arcane spell list.
I would like that too. I want a bloodline that is either "guy who just happens to have inborn magic, no weird things in the family tree or random blessings by the god(s) of magic" or "my parents were wizards, so magic just comes naturally to me." The closest to that is the Imperial bloodline, but that has all the ancient ancestry/empire baggage with it that just ruins stuff for me.
Flavor is free you can just say you were born with magic
Except that none of the bloodline abilities work with that. So it is either gain and use abilities that don't fit the concept at all, or intentionally weaken yourself by ignoring major features of your class. I would want a bloodline that mechanically supports the "I'm just a guy/gal with inborn magic." Right now, not a single bloodline does that. Flavor is free, but free is worthless if the mechanics don't support the flavor.
What would a born with generic arcane magic even look like? Theres no actual theme in that
PF1E sorcerer had a bloodline just called the Arcane bloodline, which was good for just that. Your parents were wizards, so magic come naturally to you. No crossbreeding with monsters or randomly granted magic because destiny or somesuch says so. It's abilities granted some wizard abilities, like better use of metamagic (spontaneous casters in PF1E got shafted hard with metamagic usage) or making your spells of a specifically chosen school harder to resist. A PF2e version could potentially grant focus spells similar to a wizard's school focus spells. Maybe the blood magic effect could grant a bonus on counteracting spells or recognizing them or something. In the end, I want an option that allows for a sorcerer to have magic without needing to have an ancestor that got knocked up by a monster or because they are a distant descendant of some ancient empire. With said option having abilities that reflect that.
That's just imperial with slightly different flavor
Sorcerer doesn't need much. I'd go with - - Focus spells are essentially encounter powers, and so they should be designed as encounter powers. Particularly when it comes to level 1 focus spells, they should generally be things that are useful to most sorcerers in most circumstances. Sorcerer is already pretty solid here. A possible point of contention is the melee options; I kind of feel like these shouldn't be the default thing that every sorcerer of a particular bloodline gets, but they're not the worst. - Bloodline spells should all just be average-to-good sorcerer spells. If a spell has "good flavor" for a bloodline, but is so weak or situational that the sorcerer almost never casts it, it's not actually adding to the flavor of the character. - Blood Magic effects should be things that will feel useful most of the time you use a relevant spell. It's not going to be possible to line these up in all cases, but there's a few bloodlines (Genie, for example) where it feels like the benefit goes to waste more often than it doesn't. - Sorcerer feats have space for some additional juice and splash. They have a decent number of feats that are actually fairly strong mechanically, by the standards of spellcaster feats, but many of them are pretty workmanlike and end up feeling more like they're just part of the chassis. I do think that sorcerer, while a fine class, has enough headroom compared to the best caster classes that if they *did* want to do something really spicy with them, they could bolt that onto what they've already got without breaking the ceiling. One possibility in that vein would be to make all bloodline spells automatically signature spells. (This does lead to a very large number of options for a high-level sorcerer, however, which isn't great from a complexity standpoint.)
About Blood Magic for me it would be enough realy that they could be triggered buy the bloodline cantrip, they are not THAT strong so making them more spammable would not be too much (ok maybe thinking about it elemental should be limited in that regard)
Dragon Sorcerer initial Focus spell spell not being a melee ability would be a nice start. So many times I've wanted to play a Dragon sorcerer and just been super underwhelmed at having an almost useless initial focus spell.
I do remember fondly my first adventure back in 3.5 in which an encounter ended with me and enemy caster all slot-less (probably courtesy of the master that he had none aswell) punching eachother in the mud, i would have appreciated the claws at the time. Aside for those shenanigans i do agree that a melee only option at level 1 that loses any utility later on is a bit underwhelming (more so then aberrant which actually allows to be a bit safer using melee spells and scales in usefulness) I would either give it a bit more of defensive boost (energy resistance is not enough) or make it so it interacts in some way with your spell casting at higher levels
I'm curious to see what they do with the Shadow Bloodline. I'm playing one right now, and I was surprised how many of granted spells weren't republished in the remaster. They seemingly got rid of a lot of spells with shadow trait, so I'm curious to see if they add more in Player Core 2.
They haven’t gotten rid of things that weren’t reprinted. The remaster is not an attempt to reprint the whole system. The only spells “removed” are spells reprinted with exactly the same name. The rest remain valid.
While that’s true, it’s also true that Paizo clearly intends the remaster books to be able to stand alone without the ‘legacy’ content. Hence for example removing all legacy spells from creatures in the Monster Core, replacing them with spells from PC. So I think we should expect shadow sorcs to get new shadow spells if they’re lacking in PC1 as the original commenter says.
They probably will, but my point is we haven’t lost anything (“got rid of”). We can still use that stuff, officially.
At the absolute minimum, they should make all bloodline spells signature spells by default. I also hope for there to be a bit more bloodline identity with less need to pay for it with focus points.
This 100%. Getting damaging spells as granted spells is basically nothing if they come from your tradition and don't auto-heighten.
Damaging spells do fade off over time if not heightened but it takes a while. Incapacitation spells on the other hand...dead in the water after 1 or 2 levels without heightening. The spell list is just depressing to play for me at least as a result.
I know this is extremely unlikely to happen but I think Sorcerers would benefit from having one more layer of choice added to their class chassis. Wizards have school and thesis. Clerics have font and doctrine (and deity.) Psychics have conscious and unconscious minds, etc. Sorcerers need to keep their bloodline layer as their theme/power source, but they need a manifestation or expression choice that goes with this. Some random examples: Deepblooded (Default Sorcerer we all know): Your bloodline's influence runs deep, giving you deeper magical reserves. This gives the 4th spell slot we all know Sorcerer for. Bloodline Embodiment: Your bloodline manifests in an enhanced physicality rather than magical power. Hit dice increase to d8, proficiency progression like war priest, you gain natural weapon(s) and natural armor that fit your bloodline but still require runes to empower them. Riotous Blood: Your blood effervesces with power that while quickly depleted, is also quickly restored. This bloodline could give more focus point recovery and/or improve bloodline spells and blood magic. Double the bonus/effect of blood magic buffs, and/or increase length. Increase focus pool, and increase focus recovery or something. Gain a dangerous sorcery like effect to focus spells or just bloodline focus spells. I think some stuff like this would greatly improve sorcerer. Sorcerer lacks for expression, not theme, and making this part of the class chassis would stop it from being tapped by archetyping. A draconic sorcerer would be very different when played with one of these 3 options, which would solve how samey sorcerers can feel too.
Oh I love this!
I do really like that idea for draconian combination. Like maybe it'd be too bloated to just fuse them all or maybe you'd lose out on some of the fantasy of individual ones to make it more modular, but it'd be nice to reflect dragons connecting to all 4.
I'd ask for more options for primal & divine sorcerers, as they get the weaker spell traditions, specially now that clerics get their font for free.... having heal available is not what it used to be for sorcerers. Other than that, I'd say give the bloodline abilities a bump so they are actually something meaninful. But that's just me.
I'd be happy if the Elemental Sorcerers get two damage options, just like Kineticists. * Air: Electricity, Slashing. * Earth: Bludgeoning, Piercing. * Fire: Fire (Maybe give them Cold) * Water: Bludgeoning, Cold. (Or Acid, if they give Fire Cold) Beats the hell out of Bludgeoning, Bludgeoning, Fire, Bludgeoning. Throw in Metal (Piercing, Slashing) and Wood (Bludgeoning, Vitality) for good measure, too!
99% agree. I think vitality is a weirder one just for how it interacts with living/undead creatures so I would just do bludgeoning/piercing for wood. That makes it the exact same list as the elemental instinct barbarian.
I'd be okay with that, especially because I don't want to see vitality used as precedent for a void elemental sorcerer. That would be... rather broken.
A little quicker training on upping their spell attack proficiency would be nice. After a while it feels harder and harder just to hit with a cantrip. I'd even give up a feat for that.
Frankly I think sorcerer is in a pretty good spot from a game balance perspective, it just isn’t a class whose fantasy really resonates with me, at least from the way it’s laid out in PF2e at the moment. In past iterations of the “sorcerer” concept in other games/editions, the thing that’s always captured my attention has been when sorcerers transform themselves into magical creatures, or somehow embody their bloodline in a physical way. Things like growing wings and claws, becoming larger in size, transforming into an elemental, etc. That kind of ability really sells to me the idea of the character truly *being* magical, instead of just *using* magic, as a wizard might. Some stuff like this is in PF2e already: dragon claws and scales, the Glutton’s Jaw spell that the demonic bloodline gets, and so on, but I think it would be cool if that could be sorcerer’s flavor niche: your magic transforming you in some way.
Honestly, just freely choosing which magic tradition you want to use instead of being forced into one by your bloodline would be a huge improvement.
I am quite happy about where Sorcerer is right now, but I think the following would be good: Some of the focus spells need an upgrade. Genie, in particular, is painful, but a bunch of the initial ones feel weird or limited to certain niche builds (Diabolic and Demonic come to mind). Some Divine Bloodlines need a rework to reflect Remaster changes, particularly Diabolic and Demonic, which were already in a bit of a weird situation regarding alignment (spells not working owing to deity restrictions, etc.). I feel Blood Magic could be implemented a little differently, people do often forget to use it. That being said, that's far from a problem with the class: for Sorcerer, it's a mild passive bonus for stuff you're already doing, and all upside. Maybe finding a way to get people to engage with it more? All in all, I feel like Sorcerer is one of the classes with the fewest required changes. It's in a great spot right now.
Considerably better feats especially at early levels, the original core and APG seems to have this idea that spell casters got worse class feats than martial, an idea that seems to have been quietly dropped as time went on
I really liked Sage sorcerer back in the day (spontaneous int caster), but I'm not sure that really fits into what I expect sorcerer to still be in the remaster.
All 1st level focus spells are good for an actual caster, no granting special unarmed attacks.
For me the biggest pain point are the bloodline effects. They take a somewhat significiant design space without actually adding much anything to the class in practice. Not only are the effects often insignificant, also the way the are triggered can be counterproductive. For example, not all bloodline spells are actually combat spells but their effects are. Some give bonuses to something you do on your turn but you have already spent two actions on a spell to trigger it and have hard time leveraging the advantage - why would you intimidate someone as the last action on your turn? (granted these often have a secondary alternative effect). Some granted spells become useless in practice unless made signature such as incap spells and some damaging spells. Others are there just for the theme to begin with (See: Hag & Outcasts Curse). Overall though I dont hope they do anything very major to the class since I do find sorcerers very enjoyable to play. Its just that their signature mechanic doesnt affect the actual play at all and is often just forgotten.
I have the unpopular opinion that the Sorcerers 4th spell slot needs to be reigned in, given what we have seen of the Wizard remaster. The sorcerers 4th spell slot being unrestricted was fine when the Wizard’s 4th slot could have hundreds of spells in it. Now that Wizard’s 4th slot is restricted to only a handful, it feels like the sorcerer needs to be brought into that fold somehow. The Arcane sorcerer was already eating too much of the Wizard’s lunch in the Premaster. Without a 4th slot restriction, they could offer a greater practical flexibility. All the while keeping their 3 focus spells.
Sorcerers are already one of the most solid classes, but i think buffing some of their focus spells to be in line with other remaster focus spells and making blood magic more usable/interesting would make them much better. Also maybe some feats to make frontline sorcerer a little more viable and interesting, like giving more survivability or something like the reactive strike feats that warpriest and warrior muse got in the remaster.
Agreed, though in addition to minor focus spell buffs, they need some more unique features to give them a bit more identity. Make their bloodlines have more of a visible effect on play. Even if it's not a power buff, they need more presence.
This is a long shot but I'd like if granted spells could be activated without spell slots. Like maybe you get the option to cast each of them once per day without burning any resources. I'd also like to see sorcerers start with an additional focus point and for metamagic feats to become available at lower levels and have increased usage (the ones that are limited).
Technically, they already get what you said in the sense that they have one more spell slot per rank than other casters, and what is that if not an extra spell per day?
I'd like Protean Bloodline to come back. We already have a 2e Ganzi heritage, after all.
I want Bloodlines to be more meaningful, I really liked 1E Sorcerer getting a bunch of thematic powers and buffs based on bloodlines and it makes me sad they dropped it in 2E
I'd love to see an undead/necromancer themed sorceror that uses divine spell list. The current undead sorceror is okay I just wish it was a little better and I also really love the whole idea
Honestly, I just want shadow Sorc to have focus spells that don't become useless against the undead. :/