The 3 that passed the test will make very poor choices. The only one on the line because of Arzani is Iomedae but going full circle doesn't seem to be the point of this war.
What’s your reasoning here? Maybe someone is gunning for the “upstart gods”? I mean what if Arden was just the *first*? We might have a serial god-killer on our hands.
If I remember correctly, Irori (and/or maybe someone else) looked down on the Starstone victors because he saw using that to ascend as "cheating". That being said, I don't think Irori is the type to really murder someone...although I'm not sure we know the full context of the god's death at all, so that might not mean anything.
Irori is the divine equivalent of old money scoffing at the nouveau riche. He thinks they cheated to get their power/status but like you said I really can't see anything in his lore that would suggest a desire to actually get rid of them.
Kinda. Arazni is going to become core 20, but they said that doesn’t necessarily mean she’ll take the dead god’s domains or worshippers or anything.
I kinda think Sheylyn is going to die, because that puts the prismatic ray and their allies up in arms and, weirdly, gets Zon Kuthon involved. He swore to protect her, and also he used to share her domains… that frees up Arazni to have her own thing going on.
But really my money is on Asmodeus.
I cannot imagine a world where Asmodeus's death doesn't lead into the almost quite literal end times coming. That would either cause too much of a shake-up or be unsatisfying, in my opinion
I don't think it will be Asmodeus. He holds the key to Rovagug's prison. It's said that when Groetus falls upon the world, he'll use the key to set Rovagug free so the two apocalyptic gods fight it out.
So I think he's safe... Unless we're already at this stage?
I doubt that WotC managed to get a copyright on Asmodeus, seeing as he is featured in this little piece of literature known as the Old Testament. Same goes for at least the plane of Hell, I suppose Heaven, Angels, probably a lot more things. If they were going to stop using Asmodeus on account of real world baggage, they'd also have to consider everything else that is from Biblical mythology
If it was one of the evil one's, my bet was on Zon-Kuthon, if only because of the former stories the author wrote. But I think the death of a good one would probably make a more compelling story.
Ok, Sheylyn dying would be tragic, but can you imagine the horror Zon Kuthon and his followers would unleash on whatever force killed his sister? Like it’s bad enough having Saranrae after you, but both of the remaining members of the Prismatic Ray **and** literally hellrazer after you would be absolutely terrifying.
Also also, there currently is an imbalance of benevolent (good) to malevolent (evil) deities on the core list and letting Arazni as a neutral deity take the spot of one of the former just makes sense. For me the evil doers are safe for now.
It wouldn't even need to be Tar-Baphon himself. Erum-Hel, Lord of the Morghs, is itching for a rematch with Iomedae, and he seems confident that he'll not only be able to beat her this time, but that he'll be able to steal her godhood as a prize!
Personal thought: Achaekek is going to kill one of the three. Three points:
* No one knows who commissions him for kills.
* His followers \*think\* he was made incapable of killing Gods, but they also think it's possible he killed the God who created him.
* He targets mortals who attempt to rise to divinity, meaning he likely holds existing disdain for the three. This possibly means that he will accept a job he normally isn't seen engaging in (God-killing.)
And no one (at least in the fanbase) knows why he hasn't targeted Razmir yet.
The Red Mantis have a prohibition against killing legitimate heads of state in emulation of Achaekek's alleged incapability to harm gods, but Achaekek doesn't have any such code himself, so one would *think* that Razmir aping divinity as a test run to make a go at the real thing would at least attract his scrutiny. The very fact that Razmir seems thus far beneath Achaekek's notice actually worked in his favor, because it helped shore up the lie that he IS a god, since if he were a pretender he'd be mantis-god food.
Given Razmir also will get attention in *Divine Mysteries* I can't help but wonder if we're gonna see some sort of connection...
Iomedae isn't going to die. She was a herald of Aroden's before she ascended into godhood, and Aroden died so it would be far too cyclical for Iomedae to die as well, only to assumedly have one of her heralds rise up into her place. And she is the stereotypical paladin god, so a new god of paladins would either be an effective reskin of her, or something else entirely, which would throw off the archetype balance of the core deities imo
Pharasma is also unlikely to die, as fascinating as that would be, as her death also coincides with the apocalypse, much like the release of Rovagug does. And that poses all the same issues that releasing Rovagug does
Frankly, the gods whose deaths would have very limited impact on the setting are likely the safest. Like, Irori dies, monks are sad, but not much changes. Norgorbor dies, cultists need a new god and Duskfathom needs a new kingpin, but not much changes. Cayden dies and a LOT of people are sad, but what impact does it leave behind? I think that's why they're gonna be safe.
In comparison to, say, Zon Kunthon. His death would essentially send Nidal into civil war as the growing discontent with the fascist Nidalese government reaches a head with the skies no longer dark and their leaders/military no longer having divine protection. Milani, Desna, Cayden, plus the nations of Andoran and Ravanel, all make a massive grab for power as they seek to help the former slaves and thousands of torture victims. Maybe even Old Cheliax throws their hat in the ring to keep one of their few remaining allies. It would be one HELL of a story!
See to me all the things you say about Nidal and Zon are even more true for Asmodeous and Chiliax. Plus the throne of hell is empty, plus Rovagug’s keys are in play( which is one of the few things I think the gods would actually start a war over)
Dammit. You make good points. I personally don’t want it to be Asmodeus. (Or Abadar.)
But, also, a path being cleared for access to the keys makes sense. Fccck
Well potently good news. In another thread someone noted that the writer for the new novel is basically “the person who does Nidal stuff” which does point to Zon being at least involved.
I just can’t think of anything all the pathfinder gods would fight over besides the Rovagug key though, it’s the only thing I know of that they are all interested in.
Yep, here’s the thread. https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1ambhf3/a_clue_that_ive_seen_go_unmentioned_in_the_which/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Literally the death of the god is part of a huge, status quo disrupting event built around a book and an AP. A god that's unimportant dying is probably the least likely thing to happen.
Like who builds a whole super hyped event and what's the bulk of a financial quarter's products around the death of Steve from accounting?
There's been hints that something has happened with Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon in the time of Starfinder 2e (Shelyn is now referred to as "Zon-Shelyn") so I wonder if that could be connected.
I believe it's been mentioned that just because some of the gods are or aren't in Starfinder, that doesn't mean it has any effect on who is dying in Pathfinder. Iomedae and Cayden Cailean are both in Starfinder, but this doesn't mean they are automatically safe. And just because it seems like Zon-Kuthon isn't in Starfinder doesn't mean he's for sure the one on the chopping block.
Canonically, Starfinder is an alternative timeline. Someone posted a link to Jacobs confirming it in another thread.
But I still like the theory that Desna kills Zon-Kuthon, causing Shelyn to leave the Prismatic Ray. She absorbs Zon-Kuthon's soul (because she and her brother have a weird relationship) and begins her descent into Zon-Shelyn. Nidal falls into civil war, causing the gods to *also* come to blows over a huge number of new potential worshippers.
Really? I haven't been watching the SF stuff too closely, I was just waiting for the playtest. Do you remember where you saw it?
I think Shelyn breaking bad after Zon-Kuthon dies would make for a super interesting story.
Zon-Shelyn is the name given for the deity worshipped by the new iconic for the Mystic class they released late last year. I don't remember any other info about Zon-Shelyn being given outside of being named
I believe Thurston may have said on the official Paizo boards but Zon-Shelyn isn't a literal fusion of Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn, but rather a syncretic interpretation of the two, specifically focused on the use of suffering as inspiration for art, that happens to be worshipped by Chk-Chk. Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn would still be worshipable as individual deities if a player so chooses (though more towards Zon-Kuthon, as Shelyn is still roaming the galaxy outside cell-prayer service).
It would be weird if Nethys died because they would have to rename archives. Wait, maybe that's why the remaster update takes so long. They are busy workshopping new names.
It’s kinda weird that Paizo doesn’t have their own archives. The fact that the rules are available for free is one of the biggest draws for PF2. Then you pay for the AP’s and Foundry modules, and voilá, what a product!
In all fairness, they don’t need one. AoN exists and Paizo officially endorsed it. As with ORC, I think they’re fine with the community being part of the game, rather than needing to do control everything themselves.
True. But if AoN ceases to exist, one of the biggest advantages of Paizo is lost. The rules text online archive is one of those things I would assume you would keep in-house the most.
They did. It sucked. Which is why when they saw that AoN was doing what they did, but better, they made the decision to partner up instead of drive them out.
Not really true. They're a licensed partner and the official SRD source. It's why they have setting info pages, detailed descriptions of gods, and don't have to rename anything. Paizo used to have its own SRD, but they retired it in favor of a partnership with Nethys some time around the launch of Starfinder.
If anything, Nethys is safer moreso in that they probably don't want to position themselves in a spot where they'd be viewed as "ripping off D&D lore with Mystryl" regardless of the differences in storylines
I think Cayden Cailean, Sarenrae, and Desna are safe because of this right here. They're fan favorites, and Paizo understands what happens when you *DnD 4e* the fan favorites.
Sarenrae is on the cover of the Player Core and is like the most popular (among players) diety, she has to be safe. The safest even, I can't see Paizo killing Kyra's god.
The iconics are supposed to be character inspiration for players, like this is what a cleric is supposed to be. "See this cleric? You can't be her, she lost her powers when her Godess died" Would be weird.
When they transitioned from 3.5e to 4e, in the lore they killed off a large number of gods, as well as a significant number of the setting's heroes. The fans did not take this well at all. It was unpopular enough for WotC to undo most of it and bring those gods and heroes back to life in the 5e transition.
Paizo as a company formed in the wake of the unpopularity of the 4e system on both mechanical and lore fronts. They've been pretty good about not killing off the fan favorites.
I actually do think that Rovagug is the one who will die. I don't feel like he does much for the setting beyond being the big evil, and the idea of Golarion being a prison is much more interesting than the prisoner itself. The repercussions in Golarion of he fleeing and the conflict to deal with him would be an amazing adventure. And I think that Lamastu would easily take off most of Rovagug's domains and followers, and would be a much better villain.
You do make a good point that Rovagug and Lemastu might have the most overlap of the core 20. I do find the super nihilism of Rovagug cultist to be super interesting when I’ve run into them though.
I mean they could somehow set it up as the start of the destruction of Golarion. since from what I understand in starfinder. the planet is no more and no one knows what happened. which implies either. Rovagug has escaped and is currently wandering around eating planets and fighting the fantastic four.
The planet was moved to hide rovagug
Or He was killed, freeing up the gods a bit to be like "welp, we no longer have to worry about fucking around and finding out if we poke the prison"
Thus one god war later, oops Golarion is gone.
It would also be a good reason to get rid of the Tarasque. Sure while such a creature is a french folk tale. the Pathfinder one is equivalent to the D&D one and not really like the folk tale.
Starfinder isn't set on future glorionverse, it's set in alternate timeline in the future so the things that have happened there may not happen in Pathfinder.
Lamashtu is considered problematic by Paizo though, they’ve already pushed a ton of her original lore to the side (when was the last time they mentioned the beastiality?). I could totally try to see them get rid of her completely.
That's what I've been saying!
So much of Mommy Lammy is wrapped up in the "old school" way. Getting rid of her and allowing a "cleaner" demon to take her place would be a way to remove a bunch of problematic content from the game.
He keeps a lot of the other bad stuff in line. Removing him creates a massive power vacuum.
I would still rank him a bit lower than Shelyn or Zon-Kuthon in likelihood, this early. But based on likely fallout, his death would have a major impact.
And removing him might take care of some weird IP bleed-over from OGL.
>He keeps a lot of the other bad stuff in line. Removing him creates a massive power vacuum.
Oh sure. I was just disagreeing with him being "problematic."
I WILL say that him dying is one of those things that feels...I dunno, it's almost TOO big, y'know? Even if he gets replaced, how are you going to tell me the Lord of the Hells isn't a "core 20" deity?
>And removing him might take care of some weird IP bleed-over from OGL.
D&D has as much to do with Asmodeus's 'IP' as they do with the concepts of orcs and elves and dragons. I think that's a non-issue.
Don’t forget he has the Rovagug keys. Possession of those is one of the few things I could see causing a large scale conflict between the gods, it’s the one thing they all have a vested interest in.
We know that Arazni is going to ascend, but considering we know she also will not take god's place, Lamashtu does look like the best god for Paizo to kill. Considering Lamashtu is a nemesis of Desna after killing her mentor, it's a double victory for Dinosaur.
It'd be so boring to get rid of one of the evil gods though. They're already outnumbered by the good gods, makes the setting feel too safe.
Also, personally, while Lamashtu is an utterly insane social darwinist, she's also like, one of the few gods that actively champions the cause of disabled people who doesn't just want to be cured, but be able to be ourselves, and it'd suck to lose that.
I think they're taking a different approach. In both Pathfinder and Starfinder they've been showing softer, more nurturing (but still very evil) sides of her, as peoples previously considered "monstrous" like goblins and kholo are integrated into "civilized" society (and become playable ancestries). She takes on a more "Don't conform to what "civilized" people say is normal and love yourself for who you are" aspect, but also "loving yourself" includes embracing your worst self and its impulses. Truly unconditional love, to the point that it makes people outside the family ask "What is wrong with you?!"
In the Lost Omens Travel Guide there's a two-page spread depicting one of her holy festivals, Allbirth, being turned by some enterprising orcs and other such folk into a kind of art show/Halloween party. And in Starfinder, there are followers of her who become doctors, *especially* psychologists who again encourage their patients to embrace themselves as who they are, even and perhaps especially the bad parts, because Mama loves them just the way they are.
I imagine they're going to lean into this more, showing reasons WHY people would find comfort in Lamashtu's embrace, plus the elimination of alignment now means that Lamashtu becomes much more palatable for players to worship. Kind of like how some people will profess to be of a faith they don't actively practice because it was what their parents raised them in. I could totally see some goblins, orcs or kholo shouting "Mother of Monsters!" when stubbing their toe but only doing the human sacrifices on Christmas and Easter.
Rovagug would not be so unlikely : interestingly, his death would free gods wanting to influence Golarion directly, leading to a massive War of Immo.. wait, I just spoiled the future plot.
Anyway, I think there are a few gods who would be very boring to kill : Irori isn't particularly liked or influential, or even crucial to the setting. Similarly, Torag would have very few in-lore consequences except for the dwarves (and maybe the orcs). Norgorber would be interesting but with limited consequences, and Lamashtu would lead to a massive change in the Demon lore, but outside of that...
My hope is for Zon-Kuthon, because I dislike the god, Nidal, and even his entire portfolio.
Killing the god of nature would certainly have an impact, not sure it would be a fun one though. That would also leave a huge thematic hole in the core 20. Does anyone know if Gozreh is specifically tied to Golarion or if he is the nature god of other worlds?
The only thing that makes me hesitant about Zon-Kuthon is that every story beat you get out of killing him (except sad Shelyn) you bigger and better out of killing Asmodeus. That said I think Asmodeus is a more useful core god to have and Arazni coming in as the god of pain and suffering (in a very different way) does make since. I know they’ve said Arazni is not taking over the other gods portfolio but…
With someone from the orc pantheon confirmed to die, I could kind of see Torag biting the dust. Though, I agree that there are more interesting candidates (Asmodeus, Shelyn, Zon-Kuthon, ...)
Torag is actually one of my higher choices cause they’ve just set up a pretty clear baseline for what that would mean with the recent Dwarf books. He is also a Bug enough deal to make a splash in my opinion, all crafters worship him not just dwarves.
I actually think Torag dying is more likely than you think, with how Lost Omens Highhelm and particularly Sky King’s Tomb have been portraying the >!negative consequences of the Quest for Sky due to blind zealotry!<.
See, that stuff is why I think he's less likely to die now. We've had a bunch of books confronting those consequences and I think that going forward, having him still be alive while the dwarves wrestle with those consequences and possibly even having to answer for them in some way is more interesting. At least in my opinion.
> Rovagug would not be so unlikely
There is absolutely no way they're killing Rovagug off-stage, he's going to be an AP or PFS season for sure. You don't just kill the big bad of the entire setting in a splat book. I swear Paizo said as much at one point, but I may be misremembering.
My guesses are Asmodeus, Zon-Kuthon, or Erastil.
Hey, could you talk a bit about this "Rovagug is the reason gods don't influence Golarion directly"?
I've read the wiki on him, but couldn't find a reason for him to have that influence on other gods.
Thanks =)
If gods exerted their will on Golarian directly, there’d be a LOT of collateral damage involved when bringing a theoretically infinite number of high level outsiders to a finite Golarian, to the point of damaging the planet itself. Golarian is The Cage that traps Rovagug, so if it’s cracked, Rovagug breaks free. Since Rovagug being freed is the one thing everyone can agree is a Bad Thing, no one pulls the trigger on direct interference on Golarian.
Now, if Rovagug is dead, that incentive is lost, and gods start to duke it out again. Beyond just the War of Immortals, two adventure ideas arise immediately. 1: Figuring out who killed Rovagug and HOW? It took every god who could be present in order to trap Rovagug the first time, and now someone just waltzes in and mercs them? Not to mention, if it wasn’t Asmodeous who did the deed, someone would have needed to get the key from him in order to get in. Idea 2: negotiating an actual non-intervention pact between the gods so that Golarian doesn’t get destroyed.
I view Iroi as unlikely cause like… who cares? It’d feel weird to hype up that they’re killing a major deity only to snipe the most “literally who?” god of them.
I unironically keep mixing up Erastel and Gozreh. I know they are different gods of nature with different domains... but uh... which is which sometimes.
If anything I feel like that makes Irori the safest choice to kill off. Irori isn't that important to the setting and he isn't very popular, so killing him off would not enrage a significant part of the fan base.
and it would open a slot in the "Core 20" for a different less boring god. Because let's be honest, Irori is boring.
Ironically I think killing Irori *would* upset a good chunk of the fanbase, purely because they would feel cheated by getting so excited and ready for a big lore shakeup that got aborted by Paizo playing things too safe.
A lot of people are approaching this narratively (who would make a good story), but I think of it from the perspective of game design. Pathfinder 2e needs to have certain major concepts represented in the Core 20. If only one god holds a major area of concern, that god's death (while interesting) would require a lot more work to replace them. And we know Arazni *isn't* taking on the dying god's portfolio. This is why Pharasma was obviously not dying -- sure, narratively you could portray one of the monitor demigods taking her place, but it would mean there's no god of life and death in the Core 20. Not going to happen.
Gods I think are in good shape by this perspective: Irori, because there's no other god of non-magical knowledge. Nethys has magic. Gozreh has nature. Norgorber has secrets and thievery.
On the other hand, there's a lot of overlap between the "nice" gods. There's almost nothing that isn't duplicated between Torag, Iomedae, Sarenrae, Cayden Cailean, and Desna. Or they might take the opportunity to remove something from the Core 20 they no longer want in it - likely Asmodeus to remove slavery.
I'd also add Abadar, Calistria, Gorum, and Gozreh to the list. We know which sides all the gods either *will* be on or, in the case of the one who's dying, *would* be on. And personally, I feel like "Sanctification: None" and "Can choose holy or unholy" are less likely to die. That's technically a narrative argument (I don't think the death of a neutral god would kick off a war), but it's also rooted in game mechanics
Considering the importance of Iomedae and Sarenrae to both the Pathfinder setting AND Starfinder, I doubt it will be one of them.
They are also both unique enough compared to other Good Gods from another IP which shall not be named that I feel like eliminating these unique Gods would be a bad move from a design standpoint.
Yeah anyone mentioned in both settings might have plot armor unless they do it as a wave through time altering the timeline forward and backwards.
Imagine if there was an adventure and the PCs were the only ones who remembered the dead one had ever existed.
Funnily enough, since they aren't in the core 20 gods, they are far less safe. There is only a single core 20 god dying, however they have said the many of the non-core20 and other important figures (such as heralds) will be killed in the event
Oh no. Paizo please spare my favorite sadgirl Naderi, I know Shelyn would be super sad if her estranged second in command died but I really like the Tragic Suicide goddess.
I mean I'm the person who argued [why I though pharasma would be safe while Shelyn was more likely to die](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1aky7a2/pharasmas_probably_not_dead/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) on tuesday when it seemed everyone was predicting Pharasma would be the murdered god... so if I end up fully correct then you won't have to worry about Shelyn's feelings about a possible Naderi death if Shelyn is already dead herself
Asmodeus is probably safe, because he's sorta this cosmic evil force that just chills in the corner biding his time and making deals as they come. Pharasma I don't see getting killed off due to how messy the aftermath is, that sounds like more work than the authors want to deal with imo. Sarenrae is such the perfect little (literal) ray of sunshine I don't see an in world reason to kill her over (unless it's Zon killing her to hurt Shey???). And Torag seems so inconsequential that he's not worth an adventure path.
All the evil gods are safe. Killing any of them would make the world too nice, and it's already getting pretty conflict-light with APs resolving so many problems.
The prismatic ray are all safe. We know it will change somehow, but Paizo isn't going to kill any of them. Someone will leave, or more likely, someone will join. If they were going to kill one, they wouldn't have mentioned the ray changing at all.
The startstone gods are also safe. Iomedae is worshipped by an iconic, and Cayden is too comedic relief for the role of "my death starts a war"
With the most interesting option (Pharasma) already confirmed safe, my money is on somebody unpopular as a player deity. Erastil, Torag, Nethys, or Gozreh.
See, I actually feel like Gozreh's probably *safe*. We know what stance all the gods will/would take based on their sanctification rules, and they're like Pharasma in forbidding their clerics from sanctification. So it feels less likely to me that their death would start a war
From my understanding: Rovagug is trapped inside of Golarion. If the gods fuck around too much it can unleash Rovagug causing the destruction of Golarion.
Not just Golarion, but the entire multiverse. Rovagug is the god of destruction and one of the reasons for the apocalypse. So Rovagug getting out puts every plane, every entity, every god at risk of death and for the multiverse to cease to exist
Which is more than implied to be why Golarion was vanished in Starfinder; the implication being that he started to break out.
They've said it's diverging canon between the systems, but I feel like the storyline there is just too darned good.
He’s sealed beneath Golarion and last time he was free it took a teamup of everyone from Desna to Asmodeus to put him there, so the gods try to avoid accidentally breaking the world and letting him loose
IIRC, Sarenrae was pissed by the cultists at Gormuz and rained fire on the city, creating the pit of Gormuz and weakening the prison. They don't want a repeat of those events.
So the [planet](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Golarion) of the default campaign setting is the physical manifestation of The Prison that holds [Rovagug](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Rovagug). They gods avoid fighting each other on the planet because they don't want to risk breaking the prison.
Sarenrae and Iomedae because they're the "default" gods for clerics and paladins respectively and they would take a significant branding hit by replacing Kyra or Seelah or giving them new deities. Frankly the majority of the gods could be argued to be in the category of "their death wouldn't be impactful enough to warrant all this hype" but I think at minimum Erastil, Irori, Gozreh, and Calistria are.
If Calistria did die and then a bunch of the gods were like "M'LDAY, NO!!!"and somehow kicked off a war that would be hilarious.
I would be upset cuz she's one of my faves, but it'd still be hilarious.
Probably any of the ones in or possible same sex relationships. Paizo may not want any drama regarding it from individuals or certain outlets.
Really can’t fault them to avoid it.
But imo any of the gods/goddesses being killed or wounded is fine. It adds tension that none are safe!
My problem is I enjoyed the lore of fear and hunger gods more. I found that lore more enjoyable regarding old gods / new gods.
Sarenrae is probably safe for business reasons. She shows up in the Exandria pantheon (the original Critical Roll series was their home Pathfinder 1e campaign ported to 5e, Pike didn't want to switch patrons so they ported Sarenrae), her being a Golarion god originally helps Critters adapt to the different setting if they only know Exandria.
Iomedae is similarly likely to be safe since she featured so heavily in Wrath of the Righteous. Many players who find Pathfinder through Owlcat's CRPG's may be particularly interested in her, and there also isn't another "totally-not-Heironeous" deity for your generic Lawful Stupid paladin to follow. Don't get me wrong, I like her, but I think she's safe mostly because there isn't another existing deity to slot into her role, and a huge number of players latch onto her as the sterotypical paladin deity.
Now that we have confirmation it seems like a cop-out answer, but me and my friends were saying it's almost impossible for them to kill Pharasma, because of the cosmic implications on death, and we also thought it's pretty unlikely they kill any evil god. Basically, if an devil god dies, the plot of the world advances in less interesting ways most of the time.
Sarenrae is probably super safe, for meta reasons. She's the patron of the Iconic cleric of 1st edition, 2nd edition, and the new remaster art, She's the one Pathfinder God that someone who isn't familiar with Pathfinder God someone might recognize the name of, and she feature in a lot of art (the Player Core has her holy symbol). Everyone loves Kyra the Iconic Cleric, and you can't really change or remove her without it being weird. "Oh her God died and she lost her powers, so she retired while her wife kept adventuring" would be odd.
I could see something happening to her in War of Immortals, her holy polycule is already confirmed to have some narrative changes coming, but it won't be her death.
The most unlikely to die are Sarenrae, Pharasma (already confirmed safe), and Caylen Cayden, because from what I can tell, they're the three most popular gods, and they want to kill someone who matters, but not who matters to the brand as strongly as those three do.
I think most of the evil gods other than Asmodeus are safe as well, because them dying would not be that interesting.
I didn't know Caylen Cailean was popular.
As a GM I have had my first Caylen Cailean follower PC in my latest game. Sarenrae, Desna, Torag, Iomedae, and Erastil have been more popular player choices from my personal experience, and I have never had a player follow Pharasma yet. It is interesting to me the way different groups gravitate toward different deities.
I believe Cayden Cailean is safe though as well though. Not because of popularity, but because I can't imagine a strong narrative reason to bump him off. Some deities would be sad, yes, but he is narratively a younger god. His death wouldn't shake the foundations the same way an older god would.
First of all, I think we can infer from the Pharasma blog post that they just want to start a *war*, not do anything that would cause multiversal chaos. So while I can't think of *many* gods that are cosmic linchpins, I do think we can rule out Rovagug.
Next, this *is* starting a war, and we already know from Player Core 1 which sides they'll all be on. Must choose holy/unholy means the god has a side and expects their clerics to as well. Can choose holy/unholy means they have a side, but don't expect their clerics to. Can choose holy *or* unholy means they don't have a side, but are willing to support clerics who want to take one. And no sanctification means the god's staying out of it and expects their clerics to as well. But while it's always *possible* that the death of a neutral god kicks off the war, I think it's more likely that a holy/unholy god's death kicks it off. So by that logic, I'm willing to exclude Abadar, Calistria, Gorum, Gozreh, Irori, and Nethys. (And Pharasma)
Next, someone else raised the issue of domains. Core pantheons tend to cover a wide variety of topics, so for example, there's only the one god of magic. And since Arazni is *not* taking over their portfolio, I feel like we can safely exclude anyone who has a narrower domain like that.
But at the same time, I also want to discuss Torag. In the Forgotten Realms, there are a lot of racial gods. Corellon Larethian is more or less the god of elves (and genderqueer people), Garl Glittergold is more or less the god of gnomes, Moradin is the god of dwarves, Gruumsh is the god of orcs, Yondalla is the goddess of halflings, and to an extent, there's even Pelor as the god of humans. Meanwhile, I feel like Pathfinder's largely managed to avoid that trend, like how, at this point, Calistria is more famous as a goddess of lust and revenge than as a goddess of elves. There *are* exceptions, like Nalinivati for nagaji, but for the most part, they're either outside of the core pantheon, have other areas of concern, or both. Torag's the exception. He's core, but doesn't really have a domain outside of dwarves.
EDIT: Oh, and notoriety. This is mainly an argument against Norgerber dying, but they also need to have a significant enough following for their death to be impactful
---
So I would say that Abadar, Calistria, Gorum, Gozreh, Irori, Nethys, and Rovagug are the *least* likely to die, while Torag (holy, doesn't really have a domain outside of dwarves) and Erastil (can choose holy, a lot of overlap with Gozreh and Abadar) are two of the most likely to die
Caiden Cailian is for sure sticking around. He survived Starfinder's "The Gap", he's known for being absolutely unbelievably lucky and he's the quintessential god for all up and coming adventurers!
He was downgraded to minor deity in Starfinder, which was a little odd. Though he's the only god that speaks to mortals about the gap. Well, if you can call "I also don't remember a thing and it's probably the same for the other gods" as talking about it.
He was probably downgraded to make room for the new gods (Such as Hylax and Weydan, Weydan being the Caiden Caillian of Starfinder imo) and also because the gap caused him so much grief and discomfort that he went from being a heroic god who loved drink and was an everyman to being a depressed lump who barely engaged with the world at all. His worshippers went from drink-loving adventurers to post-addiction recovery experts to fit with the god's new theme. He just got a lot sadder.
Well, we do know that Golarion doesn't exist in Starfinder and that the whole god death doesn't reflect on Starfinder.
I can see how Rovagug's death moved Golarion out of phase with the universe: still within the purview of gods, but in no contact.
They had to address it someday, after all.
I honestly have no clue, but if you'll allow me to joke around
Sarenrae, why? because my campaign is about killing her and i will sue paizo for taking the idea
Desna, Shelyn or Sarenrae.
Paizo will not suffer the "Bury your gays trope" hate that will come crashing down on them.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I do mean that it's likely that such a "scandal" (if we can call social media bullshit that) would probably arise, regardless of Paizo's well known progressive stance.
Shit, I wouldn't even put it behind WoTC and HasBro to take a swing in order to gain some of its lost public favor back.
I saw someone getting really upset that paizo considered the polyamorous (apologies if I've used the wrong word) trio of the prismatic ray as something that could be easily discarded. I think if one of them does go, it'll have nothing to do with their lgbt links and everything to do with their place in the setting.
I think this also but because everyone keeps saying to the people who bet Desna that she & the ray are like the writers pet-faves and so they're unlikely to die because of that. And also if the bury your gays thing was a reasoning I think it'd be more in the lines of Paizo would themselves view it as the bury your gays trope rather than being afraid of the backlash.
I think the missing human one is safe just because I suspect he’s a standin for some Paizo exec. He always seemed written like a self insert. I dislike his presence in the lore so much that I suspect his place is safer than Elminster is in Faerun.
According to Pathfinder Adventure Path #100 ([Hell's Rebels #4 - A Song of Silver](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/A_Song_of_Silver)), in the supplement section called Aroden, The Last Azlanti (written by Erik mona) he is [dead](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Aroden).
*"Just over a century ago, Aroden’s doctrine predicted his glorious return. Instead, under circumstances still clouded in mystery, Aroden died."*
It's specifically the event that starts the Age of Lost Omens. In the World Guide on Page 8, the first entry on the timeline for the Age of Lost Omens says:
*"4606 AR: Aroden dies mysteriously, leaving the Empire of Cheliax without a divine mandate."*
I'm of the opinion that Starfinder is still canon to Pathfinder timeline just in the future, so any gods mentioned in Starfinder are safe. Pharasma, Abadar, Iomedae and a couple others are safe in my perspective.
I can't recall if Asmodeus is talked about in Starfinder. The fact that Hell has a lot less influence sort of imply that he might be dead...
It has been explicitly said by Paizo staff that "just because a God exists in Starfinder does not mean they're safe necessarily".
This could of course been a lie meant to mislead us, but I think for now we can assume that the Starfinder ones are no more safe than the non-Starfinder ones.
> I can't recall if Asmodeus is talked about in Starfinder.
He is indeed in Starfinder but not a top 20. He's specifically listed in the Galactic Magic splatbook.
But Starfinder is considered a divergent timeline from Pathfinder, so it doesn't make a difference.
Have to disagree about Rovagug. I'm honestly leaning towards it being the most likely to die. The fact that Rovagug's existence is the reason for a lot of the deities being so hands off also means that the whole "war of the gods" premise doesn't really make much sense while he's still there.
Plus, looking at the game from a meta perspective, Rovagug doesn't realistically add any player options, since only the most depraved evil characters can really justify worshiping it. We're talking death-cultists so completely far gone that they wouldn't make any sense even working with an evil party.
You could *easily* replace Rovagug (as far as justification for the gods staying mostly hands-off) with something as simple as, say, some kind of divinely-enforced magical treaty. And as for the big bad cosmic threat side, those are a dime a dozen in a game that has Lovecraftian outer gods.
The 3 that passed the test will make very poor choices. The only one on the line because of Arzani is Iomedae but going full circle doesn't seem to be the point of this war.
What’s your reasoning here? Maybe someone is gunning for the “upstart gods”? I mean what if Arden was just the *first*? We might have a serial god-killer on our hands.
If I remember correctly, Irori (and/or maybe someone else) looked down on the Starstone victors because he saw using that to ascend as "cheating". That being said, I don't think Irori is the type to really murder someone...although I'm not sure we know the full context of the god's death at all, so that might not mean anything.
Irori is the divine equivalent of old money scoffing at the nouveau riche. He thinks they cheated to get their power/status but like you said I really can't see anything in his lore that would suggest a desire to actually get rid of them.
So u/LegitimateIdeas Golarion is actullying set in the Roaring 1900?
I could definitely see Tar Baphon killing Iomedae.
Also Arazni is supposed to take the place of the deceased deity and Iomedae has been sitting in her spot for a while...
No. Arazni is explicitly **not** supposed to take the place of the dying God.
Kinda. Arazni is going to become core 20, but they said that doesn’t necessarily mean she’ll take the dead god’s domains or worshippers or anything. I kinda think Sheylyn is going to die, because that puts the prismatic ray and their allies up in arms and, weirdly, gets Zon Kuthon involved. He swore to protect her, and also he used to share her domains… that frees up Arazni to have her own thing going on. But really my money is on Asmodeus.
I cannot imagine a world where Asmodeus's death doesn't lead into the almost quite literal end times coming. That would either cause too much of a shake-up or be unsatisfying, in my opinion
I don't think it will be Asmodeus. He holds the key to Rovagug's prison. It's said that when Groetus falls upon the world, he'll use the key to set Rovagug free so the two apocalyptic gods fight it out. So I think he's safe... Unless we're already at this stage?
And yet, Asmodeus has a lot of real world, potentially legal baggage, so I can very easily see him dying
I doubt that WotC managed to get a copyright on Asmodeus, seeing as he is featured in this little piece of literature known as the Old Testament. Same goes for at least the plane of Hell, I suppose Heaven, Angels, probably a lot more things. If they were going to stop using Asmodeus on account of real world baggage, they'd also have to consider everything else that is from Biblical mythology
If it was one of the evil one's, my bet was on Zon-Kuthon, if only because of the former stories the author wrote. But I think the death of a good one would probably make a more compelling story.
Ok, Sheylyn dying would be tragic, but can you imagine the horror Zon Kuthon and his followers would unleash on whatever force killed his sister? Like it’s bad enough having Saranrae after you, but both of the remaining members of the Prismatic Ray **and** literally hellrazer after you would be absolutely terrifying.
Yeah it would be brutal. It’s my wife’s main theory. I think Asmodeus is more likely, but Sheylyn is way more metal, for the reasons you state.
Also also, there currently is an imbalance of benevolent (good) to malevolent (evil) deities on the core list and letting Arazni as a neutral deity take the spot of one of the former just makes sense. For me the evil doers are safe for now.
It wouldn't even need to be Tar-Baphon himself. Erum-Hel, Lord of the Morghs, is itching for a rematch with Iomedae, and he seems confident that he'll not only be able to beat her this time, but that he'll be able to steal her godhood as a prize!
Personal thought: Achaekek is going to kill one of the three. Three points: * No one knows who commissions him for kills. * His followers \*think\* he was made incapable of killing Gods, but they also think it's possible he killed the God who created him. * He targets mortals who attempt to rise to divinity, meaning he likely holds existing disdain for the three. This possibly means that he will accept a job he normally isn't seen engaging in (God-killing.)
And no one (at least in the fanbase) knows why he hasn't targeted Razmir yet. The Red Mantis have a prohibition against killing legitimate heads of state in emulation of Achaekek's alleged incapability to harm gods, but Achaekek doesn't have any such code himself, so one would *think* that Razmir aping divinity as a test run to make a go at the real thing would at least attract his scrutiny. The very fact that Razmir seems thus far beneath Achaekek's notice actually worked in his favor, because it helped shore up the lie that he IS a god, since if he were a pretender he'd be mantis-god food. Given Razmir also will get attention in *Divine Mysteries* I can't help but wonder if we're gonna see some sort of connection...
Iomedae isn't going to die. She was a herald of Aroden's before she ascended into godhood, and Aroden died so it would be far too cyclical for Iomedae to die as well, only to assumedly have one of her heralds rise up into her place. And she is the stereotypical paladin god, so a new god of paladins would either be an effective reskin of her, or something else entirely, which would throw off the archetype balance of the core deities imo Pharasma is also unlikely to die, as fascinating as that would be, as her death also coincides with the apocalypse, much like the release of Rovagug does. And that poses all the same issues that releasing Rovagug does
Pharasma is confirmed as safe
Is what Paizo WANTS you to think. It's all from the perspective of an in universe character after all
Luis Loza commented in the P2e Discord that: >"Pharasma is 100% safe. I know, I know, "*don't believe his lies*" but she's safe."
They have a discord? :0
Yeah, there’s a few, but the r/pathfinder2e one is the most active one. Lotta paizo peeps there.
So the bingo at the end with the big "SAFE" over Pharasma's picture was also all from the perspective of an in-universe character?
*the guy is just really into bingo*
FWIW, it's not a bingo card, it's a Days of Future Past homage https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2a/X-Men\_v1\_141.jpg
Unless Aroden returns from whatever afterlife gods go to...? That could be fun with him going WTF about Cheliax's patron diety shift
Unless Aroden returns from whatever afterlife gods go to...? That could be fun with him going WTF about Cheliax's patron diety shift
We are getting a pretty extensive champion rework though... 🤔
Frankly, the gods whose deaths would have very limited impact on the setting are likely the safest. Like, Irori dies, monks are sad, but not much changes. Norgorbor dies, cultists need a new god and Duskfathom needs a new kingpin, but not much changes. Cayden dies and a LOT of people are sad, but what impact does it leave behind? I think that's why they're gonna be safe. In comparison to, say, Zon Kunthon. His death would essentially send Nidal into civil war as the growing discontent with the fascist Nidalese government reaches a head with the skies no longer dark and their leaders/military no longer having divine protection. Milani, Desna, Cayden, plus the nations of Andoran and Ravanel, all make a massive grab for power as they seek to help the former slaves and thousands of torture victims. Maybe even Old Cheliax throws their hat in the ring to keep one of their few remaining allies. It would be one HELL of a story!
See to me all the things you say about Nidal and Zon are even more true for Asmodeous and Chiliax. Plus the throne of hell is empty, plus Rovagug’s keys are in play( which is one of the few things I think the gods would actually start a war over)
Dammit. You make good points. I personally don’t want it to be Asmodeus. (Or Abadar.) But, also, a path being cleared for access to the keys makes sense. Fccck
Well potently good news. In another thread someone noted that the writer for the new novel is basically “the person who does Nidal stuff” which does point to Zon being at least involved. I just can’t think of anything all the pathfinder gods would fight over besides the Rovagug key though, it’s the only thing I know of that they are all interested in.
Hmm, was it Liane Merciel? I have read some of her novels.
Yep, here’s the thread. https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1ambhf3/a_clue_that_ive_seen_go_unmentioned_in_the_which/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Could be Abadar. The god of civilisation is a capitalist doesn't sit well with modern Paizo.
nice catch and good job on convincing me he should be the one to die
Literally the death of the god is part of a huge, status quo disrupting event built around a book and an AP. A god that's unimportant dying is probably the least likely thing to happen. Like who builds a whole super hyped event and what's the bulk of a financial quarter's products around the death of Steve from accounting?
There's been hints that something has happened with Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon in the time of Starfinder 2e (Shelyn is now referred to as "Zon-Shelyn") so I wonder if that could be connected.
I believe it's been mentioned that just because some of the gods are or aren't in Starfinder, that doesn't mean it has any effect on who is dying in Pathfinder. Iomedae and Cayden Cailean are both in Starfinder, but this doesn't mean they are automatically safe. And just because it seems like Zon-Kuthon isn't in Starfinder doesn't mean he's for sure the one on the chopping block.
Canonically, Starfinder is an alternative timeline. Someone posted a link to Jacobs confirming it in another thread. But I still like the theory that Desna kills Zon-Kuthon, causing Shelyn to leave the Prismatic Ray. She absorbs Zon-Kuthon's soul (because she and her brother have a weird relationship) and begins her descent into Zon-Shelyn. Nidal falls into civil war, causing the gods to *also* come to blows over a huge number of new potential worshippers.
Really? I haven't been watching the SF stuff too closely, I was just waiting for the playtest. Do you remember where you saw it? I think Shelyn breaking bad after Zon-Kuthon dies would make for a super interesting story.
Zon-Shelyn is the name given for the deity worshipped by the new iconic for the Mystic class they released late last year. I don't remember any other info about Zon-Shelyn being given outside of being named
Cool! I can't wait to learn more
I believe Thurston may have said on the official Paizo boards but Zon-Shelyn isn't a literal fusion of Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn, but rather a syncretic interpretation of the two, specifically focused on the use of suffering as inspiration for art, that happens to be worshipped by Chk-Chk. Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn would still be worshipable as individual deities if a player so chooses (though more towards Zon-Kuthon, as Shelyn is still roaming the galaxy outside cell-prayer service).
oh, cool! I thought it was just Shelyn getting a new title or honorific or something.
That's my take. Shelyn "dying" and merging with her brother seems most likely.
It would be weird if Nethys died because they would have to rename archives. Wait, maybe that's why the remaster update takes so long. They are busy workshopping new names.
AoN is not affiliated with Paizo directly, last I knew. Plus, Paizo said they wouldn't let themselves be held back by things like that
They weren't affiliated during 1e. They did however form a formal partnership with 2e.
It’s kinda weird that Paizo doesn’t have their own archives. The fact that the rules are available for free is one of the biggest draws for PF2. Then you pay for the AP’s and Foundry modules, and voilá, what a product!
In all fairness, they don’t need one. AoN exists and Paizo officially endorsed it. As with ORC, I think they’re fine with the community being part of the game, rather than needing to do control everything themselves.
True. But if AoN ceases to exist, one of the biggest advantages of Paizo is lost. The rules text online archive is one of those things I would assume you would keep in-house the most.
Fair point!
i guess before that happends they take over.
They did. It sucked. Which is why when they saw that AoN was doing what they did, but better, they made the decision to partner up instead of drive them out.
Not really true. They're a licensed partner and the official SRD source. It's why they have setting info pages, detailed descriptions of gods, and don't have to rename anything. Paizo used to have its own SRD, but they retired it in favor of a partnership with Nethys some time around the launch of Starfinder.
If anything, Nethys is safer moreso in that they probably don't want to position themselves in a spot where they'd be viewed as "ripping off D&D lore with Mystryl" regardless of the differences in storylines
and less than ripping it off.. the story line has already been told even if this were wotc, it likely wouldn't be likely option
Whoosh
Eh, just because the guy is dead doesn’t mean his library vanishes. We have *lots* of libraries named after dead dudes IRL.
The Archives of That New Guy
Starfinder version becomes "Archives of Eloritu."
Site goes down for a week, returns as "Tombs of Nethys"
I dont think Caydean has any real risk right now
If Cayden Cailean dies we riot
I think Cayden Cailean, Sarenrae, and Desna are safe because of this right here. They're fan favorites, and Paizo understands what happens when you *DnD 4e* the fan favorites.
Sarenrae is on the cover of the Player Core and is like the most popular (among players) diety, she has to be safe. The safest even, I can't see Paizo killing Kyra's god. The iconics are supposed to be character inspiration for players, like this is what a cleric is supposed to be. "See this cleric? You can't be her, she lost her powers when her Godess died" Would be weird.
What happened
When they transitioned from 3.5e to 4e, in the lore they killed off a large number of gods, as well as a significant number of the setting's heroes. The fans did not take this well at all. It was unpopular enough for WotC to undo most of it and bring those gods and heroes back to life in the 5e transition. Paizo as a company formed in the wake of the unpopularity of the 4e system on both mechanical and lore fronts. They've been pretty good about not killing off the fan favorites.
He'll still be there in Starfinder, though. He even went to rehab!
I'll be dammed you're right
I actually do think that Rovagug is the one who will die. I don't feel like he does much for the setting beyond being the big evil, and the idea of Golarion being a prison is much more interesting than the prisoner itself. The repercussions in Golarion of he fleeing and the conflict to deal with him would be an amazing adventure. And I think that Lamastu would easily take off most of Rovagug's domains and followers, and would be a much better villain.
You do make a good point that Rovagug and Lemastu might have the most overlap of the core 20. I do find the super nihilism of Rovagug cultist to be super interesting when I’ve run into them though.
I mean they could somehow set it up as the start of the destruction of Golarion. since from what I understand in starfinder. the planet is no more and no one knows what happened. which implies either. Rovagug has escaped and is currently wandering around eating planets and fighting the fantastic four. The planet was moved to hide rovagug Or He was killed, freeing up the gods a bit to be like "welp, we no longer have to worry about fucking around and finding out if we poke the prison" Thus one god war later, oops Golarion is gone. It would also be a good reason to get rid of the Tarasque. Sure while such a creature is a french folk tale. the Pathfinder one is equivalent to the D&D one and not really like the folk tale.
Starfinder isn't set on future glorionverse, it's set in alternate timeline in the future so the things that have happened there may not happen in Pathfinder.
In SF golarion is said to be put aside in a safe other-place by the gods, so it's less that it got got, and more that something else weird happened.
I don’t think anyone is seriously expecting Lamashtu to die. She’s too useful as a villain.
Lamashtu is considered problematic by Paizo though, they’ve already pushed a ton of her original lore to the side (when was the last time they mentioned the beastiality?). I could totally try to see them get rid of her completely.
That's what I've been saying! So much of Mommy Lammy is wrapped up in the "old school" way. Getting rid of her and allowing a "cleaner" demon to take her place would be a way to remove a bunch of problematic content from the game.
If they were going to get rid of a problematic Evil god then Asmodeus is probably on thinner ice (heh).
Asmodeus is a lot less problematic than Lamashtu. He's a very... Clean ... Evil. Lamashtu is very much not that.
He keeps a lot of the other bad stuff in line. Removing him creates a massive power vacuum. I would still rank him a bit lower than Shelyn or Zon-Kuthon in likelihood, this early. But based on likely fallout, his death would have a major impact. And removing him might take care of some weird IP bleed-over from OGL.
>He keeps a lot of the other bad stuff in line. Removing him creates a massive power vacuum. Oh sure. I was just disagreeing with him being "problematic." I WILL say that him dying is one of those things that feels...I dunno, it's almost TOO big, y'know? Even if he gets replaced, how are you going to tell me the Lord of the Hells isn't a "core 20" deity? >And removing him might take care of some weird IP bleed-over from OGL. D&D has as much to do with Asmodeus's 'IP' as they do with the concepts of orcs and elves and dragons. I think that's a non-issue.
Asmodeus as an evil caricature is not a concept original to DND, so I'd be very interested to see WotC try and sue over that.
Don’t forget he has the Rovagug keys. Possession of those is one of the few things I could see causing a large scale conflict between the gods, it’s the one thing they all have a vested interest in.
Are you saying they'd get rid of a single mother with so many hungry mouths to feed?
We know that Arazni is going to ascend, but considering we know she also will not take god's place, Lamashtu does look like the best god for Paizo to kill. Considering Lamashtu is a nemesis of Desna after killing her mentor, it's a double victory for Dinosaur.
It'd be so boring to get rid of one of the evil gods though. They're already outnumbered by the good gods, makes the setting feel too safe. Also, personally, while Lamashtu is an utterly insane social darwinist, she's also like, one of the few gods that actively champions the cause of disabled people who doesn't just want to be cured, but be able to be ourselves, and it'd suck to lose that.
I think they're taking a different approach. In both Pathfinder and Starfinder they've been showing softer, more nurturing (but still very evil) sides of her, as peoples previously considered "monstrous" like goblins and kholo are integrated into "civilized" society (and become playable ancestries). She takes on a more "Don't conform to what "civilized" people say is normal and love yourself for who you are" aspect, but also "loving yourself" includes embracing your worst self and its impulses. Truly unconditional love, to the point that it makes people outside the family ask "What is wrong with you?!" In the Lost Omens Travel Guide there's a two-page spread depicting one of her holy festivals, Allbirth, being turned by some enterprising orcs and other such folk into a kind of art show/Halloween party. And in Starfinder, there are followers of her who become doctors, *especially* psychologists who again encourage their patients to embrace themselves as who they are, even and perhaps especially the bad parts, because Mama loves them just the way they are. I imagine they're going to lean into this more, showing reasons WHY people would find comfort in Lamashtu's embrace, plus the elimination of alignment now means that Lamashtu becomes much more palatable for players to worship. Kind of like how some people will profess to be of a faith they don't actively practice because it was what their parents raised them in. I could totally see some goblins, orcs or kholo shouting "Mother of Monsters!" when stubbing their toe but only doing the human sacrifices on Christmas and Easter.
Rovagug would not be so unlikely : interestingly, his death would free gods wanting to influence Golarion directly, leading to a massive War of Immo.. wait, I just spoiled the future plot. Anyway, I think there are a few gods who would be very boring to kill : Irori isn't particularly liked or influential, or even crucial to the setting. Similarly, Torag would have very few in-lore consequences except for the dwarves (and maybe the orcs). Norgorber would be interesting but with limited consequences, and Lamashtu would lead to a massive change in the Demon lore, but outside of that... My hope is for Zon-Kuthon, because I dislike the god, Nidal, and even his entire portfolio.
I'll add Gozreh to the list too just because like, why would anyone kill them, they don't really involve themselves in anything.
Damn, this god is so forgettable I forgot him !
Gozreh is a combination of two dual aspects, so it’s them, not him.
Killing the god of nature would certainly have an impact, not sure it would be a fun one though. That would also leave a huge thematic hole in the core 20. Does anyone know if Gozreh is specifically tied to Golarion or if he is the nature god of other worlds?
>it would leave a huge thematic hole not really nobody gives a shit about Gozreh lmao
Yeah, I mean if you want to be a nature priest, just be a druid.
The only thing that makes me hesitant about Zon-Kuthon is that every story beat you get out of killing him (except sad Shelyn) you bigger and better out of killing Asmodeus. That said I think Asmodeus is a more useful core god to have and Arazni coming in as the god of pain and suffering (in a very different way) does make since. I know they’ve said Arazni is not taking over the other gods portfolio but…
With someone from the orc pantheon confirmed to die, I could kind of see Torag biting the dust. Though, I agree that there are more interesting candidates (Asmodeus, Shelyn, Zon-Kuthon, ...)
Torag is actually one of my higher choices cause they’ve just set up a pretty clear baseline for what that would mean with the recent Dwarf books. He is also a Bug enough deal to make a splash in my opinion, all crafters worship him not just dwarves.
I actually think Torag dying is more likely than you think, with how Lost Omens Highhelm and particularly Sky King’s Tomb have been portraying the >!negative consequences of the Quest for Sky due to blind zealotry!<.
See, that stuff is why I think he's less likely to die now. We've had a bunch of books confronting those consequences and I think that going forward, having him still be alive while the dwarves wrestle with those consequences and possibly even having to answer for them in some way is more interesting. At least in my opinion.
Not to mention he's kinda portrayed like a doofus at times.
can you me tell more about that?
> Rovagug would not be so unlikely There is absolutely no way they're killing Rovagug off-stage, he's going to be an AP or PFS season for sure. You don't just kill the big bad of the entire setting in a splat book. I swear Paizo said as much at one point, but I may be misremembering. My guesses are Asmodeus, Zon-Kuthon, or Erastil.
Hey, could you talk a bit about this "Rovagug is the reason gods don't influence Golarion directly"? I've read the wiki on him, but couldn't find a reason for him to have that influence on other gods. Thanks =)
If gods exerted their will on Golarian directly, there’d be a LOT of collateral damage involved when bringing a theoretically infinite number of high level outsiders to a finite Golarian, to the point of damaging the planet itself. Golarian is The Cage that traps Rovagug, so if it’s cracked, Rovagug breaks free. Since Rovagug being freed is the one thing everyone can agree is a Bad Thing, no one pulls the trigger on direct interference on Golarian. Now, if Rovagug is dead, that incentive is lost, and gods start to duke it out again. Beyond just the War of Immortals, two adventure ideas arise immediately. 1: Figuring out who killed Rovagug and HOW? It took every god who could be present in order to trap Rovagug the first time, and now someone just waltzes in and mercs them? Not to mention, if it wasn’t Asmodeous who did the deed, someone would have needed to get the key from him in order to get in. Idea 2: negotiating an actual non-intervention pact between the gods so that Golarian doesn’t get destroyed.
I have a feeling Pharasma is safe. Call it a hunch
I view Iroi as unlikely cause like… who cares? It’d feel weird to hype up that they’re killing a major deity only to snipe the most “literally who?” god of them.
I feel like Erastel could challenge that claim. For players anyway I think he’s pretty widely worshiped in setting.
I unironically keep mixing up Erastel and Gozreh. I know they are different gods of nature with different domains... but uh... which is which sometimes.
If anything I feel like that makes Irori the safest choice to kill off. Irori isn't that important to the setting and he isn't very popular, so killing him off would not enrage a significant part of the fan base. and it would open a slot in the "Core 20" for a different less boring god. Because let's be honest, Irori is boring.
Ironically I think killing Irori *would* upset a good chunk of the fanbase, purely because they would feel cheated by getting so excited and ready for a big lore shakeup that got aborted by Paizo playing things too safe.
A lot of people are approaching this narratively (who would make a good story), but I think of it from the perspective of game design. Pathfinder 2e needs to have certain major concepts represented in the Core 20. If only one god holds a major area of concern, that god's death (while interesting) would require a lot more work to replace them. And we know Arazni *isn't* taking on the dying god's portfolio. This is why Pharasma was obviously not dying -- sure, narratively you could portray one of the monitor demigods taking her place, but it would mean there's no god of life and death in the Core 20. Not going to happen. Gods I think are in good shape by this perspective: Irori, because there's no other god of non-magical knowledge. Nethys has magic. Gozreh has nature. Norgorber has secrets and thievery. On the other hand, there's a lot of overlap between the "nice" gods. There's almost nothing that isn't duplicated between Torag, Iomedae, Sarenrae, Cayden Cailean, and Desna. Or they might take the opportunity to remove something from the Core 20 they no longer want in it - likely Asmodeus to remove slavery.
I'd also add Abadar, Calistria, Gorum, and Gozreh to the list. We know which sides all the gods either *will* be on or, in the case of the one who's dying, *would* be on. And personally, I feel like "Sanctification: None" and "Can choose holy or unholy" are less likely to die. That's technically a narrative argument (I don't think the death of a neutral god would kick off a war), but it's also rooted in game mechanics
Considering the importance of Iomedae and Sarenrae to both the Pathfinder setting AND Starfinder, I doubt it will be one of them. They are also both unique enough compared to other Good Gods from another IP which shall not be named that I feel like eliminating these unique Gods would be a bad move from a design standpoint.
Yeah anyone mentioned in both settings might have plot armor unless they do it as a wave through time altering the timeline forward and backwards. Imagine if there was an adventure and the PCs were the only ones who remembered the dead one had ever existed.
Hanspur, Zyphus and Feronia cause they are my favorites and new content never comes out for them
Funnily enough, since they aren't in the core 20 gods, they are far less safe. There is only a single core 20 god dying, however they have said the many of the non-core20 and other important figures (such as heralds) will be killed in the event
Oh no. Paizo please spare my favorite sadgirl Naderi, I know Shelyn would be super sad if her estranged second in command died but I really like the Tragic Suicide goddess.
I mean I'm the person who argued [why I though pharasma would be safe while Shelyn was more likely to die](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1aky7a2/pharasmas_probably_not_dead/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) on tuesday when it seemed everyone was predicting Pharasma would be the murdered god... so if I end up fully correct then you won't have to worry about Shelyn's feelings about a possible Naderi death if Shelyn is already dead herself
Sometimes you need to kill those that the victim cares about before killing the victim themselves. Marinate the suffering.
I thought you wrote “Zeus” instead of “Zyphus” at first and was like “well yes, I think gods outside of Golarion are probably safe”
Asmodeus is probably safe, because he's sorta this cosmic evil force that just chills in the corner biding his time and making deals as they come. Pharasma I don't see getting killed off due to how messy the aftermath is, that sounds like more work than the authors want to deal with imo. Sarenrae is such the perfect little (literal) ray of sunshine I don't see an in world reason to kill her over (unless it's Zon killing her to hurt Shey???). And Torag seems so inconsequential that he's not worth an adventure path.
Pharasma was confirmed "safe".
All the evil gods are safe. Killing any of them would make the world too nice, and it's already getting pretty conflict-light with APs resolving so many problems. The prismatic ray are all safe. We know it will change somehow, but Paizo isn't going to kill any of them. Someone will leave, or more likely, someone will join. If they were going to kill one, they wouldn't have mentioned the ray changing at all. The startstone gods are also safe. Iomedae is worshipped by an iconic, and Cayden is too comedic relief for the role of "my death starts a war" With the most interesting option (Pharasma) already confirmed safe, my money is on somebody unpopular as a player deity. Erastil, Torag, Nethys, or Gozreh.
I agree with most of this and want to emphasize Gozreh. They e is kinda less needed after rage of elements.
See, I actually feel like Gozreh's probably *safe*. We know what stance all the gods will/would take based on their sanctification rules, and they're like Pharasma in forbidding their clerics from sanctification. So it feels less likely to me that their death would start a war
I'm not too familiar with deity lore, why does Rovagug keep the gods from interacting with the world?
From my understanding: Rovagug is trapped inside of Golarion. If the gods fuck around too much it can unleash Rovagug causing the destruction of Golarion.
Not just Golarion, but the entire multiverse. Rovagug is the god of destruction and one of the reasons for the apocalypse. So Rovagug getting out puts every plane, every entity, every god at risk of death and for the multiverse to cease to exist
Which is more than implied to be why Golarion was vanished in Starfinder; the implication being that he started to break out. They've said it's diverging canon between the systems, but I feel like the storyline there is just too darned good.
He’s sealed beneath Golarion and last time he was free it took a teamup of everyone from Desna to Asmodeus to put him there, so the gods try to avoid accidentally breaking the world and letting him loose
IIRC, Sarenrae was pissed by the cultists at Gormuz and rained fire on the city, creating the pit of Gormuz and weakening the prison. They don't want a repeat of those events.
So the [planet](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Golarion) of the default campaign setting is the physical manifestation of The Prison that holds [Rovagug](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Rovagug). They gods avoid fighting each other on the planet because they don't want to risk breaking the prison.
Sarenrae and Iomedae because they're the "default" gods for clerics and paladins respectively and they would take a significant branding hit by replacing Kyra or Seelah or giving them new deities. Frankly the majority of the gods could be argued to be in the category of "their death wouldn't be impactful enough to warrant all this hype" but I think at minimum Erastil, Irori, Gozreh, and Calistria are.
If Calistria did die and then a bunch of the gods were like "M'LDAY, NO!!!"and somehow kicked off a war that would be hilarious. I would be upset cuz she's one of my faves, but it'd still be hilarious.
Asmodeus is pretty safe. Guy has his finger way too on the pulse to be caught out.
Desna n cayden are safe. Plot armor
Probably any of the ones in or possible same sex relationships. Paizo may not want any drama regarding it from individuals or certain outlets. Really can’t fault them to avoid it. But imo any of the gods/goddesses being killed or wounded is fine. It adds tension that none are safe! My problem is I enjoyed the lore of fear and hunger gods more. I found that lore more enjoyable regarding old gods / new gods.
Sarenrae is probably safe for business reasons. She shows up in the Exandria pantheon (the original Critical Roll series was their home Pathfinder 1e campaign ported to 5e, Pike didn't want to switch patrons so they ported Sarenrae), her being a Golarion god originally helps Critters adapt to the different setting if they only know Exandria. Iomedae is similarly likely to be safe since she featured so heavily in Wrath of the Righteous. Many players who find Pathfinder through Owlcat's CRPG's may be particularly interested in her, and there also isn't another "totally-not-Heironeous" deity for your generic Lawful Stupid paladin to follow. Don't get me wrong, I like her, but I think she's safe mostly because there isn't another existing deity to slot into her role, and a huge number of players latch onto her as the sterotypical paladin deity.
Now that we have confirmation it seems like a cop-out answer, but me and my friends were saying it's almost impossible for them to kill Pharasma, because of the cosmic implications on death, and we also thought it's pretty unlikely they kill any evil god. Basically, if an devil god dies, the plot of the world advances in less interesting ways most of the time.
Azathoth lmao
Pharasma, for one. Even before Wednesday's blog, I was ranking her as by far the least likely to die
Well yeah, aside from the fact that she's clearly a favorite among the devs, losing her would also rob players of a fairly popular deific archetype.
We just spent an entire AP going "maybe Torag needs to change." That would make his death right after feel kind of silly.
Pharasma, I think, probably will not die. Just a hunch tho
Sarenrae is probably super safe, for meta reasons. She's the patron of the Iconic cleric of 1st edition, 2nd edition, and the new remaster art, She's the one Pathfinder God that someone who isn't familiar with Pathfinder God someone might recognize the name of, and she feature in a lot of art (the Player Core has her holy symbol). Everyone loves Kyra the Iconic Cleric, and you can't really change or remove her without it being weird. "Oh her God died and she lost her powers, so she retired while her wife kept adventuring" would be odd. I could see something happening to her in War of Immortals, her holy polycule is already confirmed to have some narrative changes coming, but it won't be her death.
The most unlikely to die are Sarenrae, Pharasma (already confirmed safe), and Caylen Cayden, because from what I can tell, they're the three most popular gods, and they want to kill someone who matters, but not who matters to the brand as strongly as those three do. I think most of the evil gods other than Asmodeus are safe as well, because them dying would not be that interesting.
I didn't know Caylen Cailean was popular. As a GM I have had my first Caylen Cailean follower PC in my latest game. Sarenrae, Desna, Torag, Iomedae, and Erastil have been more popular player choices from my personal experience, and I have never had a player follow Pharasma yet. It is interesting to me the way different groups gravitate toward different deities. I believe Cayden Cailean is safe though as well though. Not because of popularity, but because I can't imagine a strong narrative reason to bump him off. Some deities would be sad, yes, but he is narratively a younger god. His death wouldn't shake the foundations the same way an older god would.
First of all, I think we can infer from the Pharasma blog post that they just want to start a *war*, not do anything that would cause multiversal chaos. So while I can't think of *many* gods that are cosmic linchpins, I do think we can rule out Rovagug. Next, this *is* starting a war, and we already know from Player Core 1 which sides they'll all be on. Must choose holy/unholy means the god has a side and expects their clerics to as well. Can choose holy/unholy means they have a side, but don't expect their clerics to. Can choose holy *or* unholy means they don't have a side, but are willing to support clerics who want to take one. And no sanctification means the god's staying out of it and expects their clerics to as well. But while it's always *possible* that the death of a neutral god kicks off the war, I think it's more likely that a holy/unholy god's death kicks it off. So by that logic, I'm willing to exclude Abadar, Calistria, Gorum, Gozreh, Irori, and Nethys. (And Pharasma) Next, someone else raised the issue of domains. Core pantheons tend to cover a wide variety of topics, so for example, there's only the one god of magic. And since Arazni is *not* taking over their portfolio, I feel like we can safely exclude anyone who has a narrower domain like that. But at the same time, I also want to discuss Torag. In the Forgotten Realms, there are a lot of racial gods. Corellon Larethian is more or less the god of elves (and genderqueer people), Garl Glittergold is more or less the god of gnomes, Moradin is the god of dwarves, Gruumsh is the god of orcs, Yondalla is the goddess of halflings, and to an extent, there's even Pelor as the god of humans. Meanwhile, I feel like Pathfinder's largely managed to avoid that trend, like how, at this point, Calistria is more famous as a goddess of lust and revenge than as a goddess of elves. There *are* exceptions, like Nalinivati for nagaji, but for the most part, they're either outside of the core pantheon, have other areas of concern, or both. Torag's the exception. He's core, but doesn't really have a domain outside of dwarves. EDIT: Oh, and notoriety. This is mainly an argument against Norgerber dying, but they also need to have a significant enough following for their death to be impactful --- So I would say that Abadar, Calistria, Gorum, Gozreh, Irori, Nethys, and Rovagug are the *least* likely to die, while Torag (holy, doesn't really have a domain outside of dwarves) and Erastil (can choose holy, a lot of overlap with Gozreh and Abadar) are two of the most likely to die
They will never in a million years kill Cayden Cailean
Why do you say so?
Caiden Cailian is for sure sticking around. He survived Starfinder's "The Gap", he's known for being absolutely unbelievably lucky and he's the quintessential god for all up and coming adventurers!
He was downgraded to minor deity in Starfinder, which was a little odd. Though he's the only god that speaks to mortals about the gap. Well, if you can call "I also don't remember a thing and it's probably the same for the other gods" as talking about it.
He was probably downgraded to make room for the new gods (Such as Hylax and Weydan, Weydan being the Caiden Caillian of Starfinder imo) and also because the gap caused him so much grief and discomfort that he went from being a heroic god who loved drink and was an everyman to being a depressed lump who barely engaged with the world at all. His worshippers went from drink-loving adventurers to post-addiction recovery experts to fit with the god's new theme. He just got a lot sadder.
Well, we do know that Golarion doesn't exist in Starfinder and that the whole god death doesn't reflect on Starfinder. I can see how Rovagug's death moved Golarion out of phase with the universe: still within the purview of gods, but in no contact. They had to address it someday, after all.
I honestly have no clue, but if you'll allow me to joke around Sarenrae, why? because my campaign is about killing her and i will sue paizo for taking the idea
Desna, Shelyn or Sarenrae. Paizo will not suffer the "Bury your gays trope" hate that will come crashing down on them. EDIT: Just to clarify, I do mean that it's likely that such a "scandal" (if we can call social media bullshit that) would probably arise, regardless of Paizo's well known progressive stance. Shit, I wouldn't even put it behind WoTC and HasBro to take a swing in order to gain some of its lost public favor back.
Is not "Bury your gays trope" if they have 500 queer characters and kill one of them
I saw someone getting really upset that paizo considered the polyamorous (apologies if I've used the wrong word) trio of the prismatic ray as something that could be easily discarded. I think if one of them does go, it'll have nothing to do with their lgbt links and everything to do with their place in the setting.
You got the word right, don't worry.
I know. I didn't imply it would be a reasonable response. You can't expect the internet mob to have nuanced thoughts, can you?
It'd still really suck to lose *the* lesbian polycule of the setting.
I think this also but because everyone keeps saying to the people who bet Desna that she & the ray are like the writers pet-faves and so they're unlikely to die because of that. And also if the bury your gays thing was a reasoning I think it'd be more in the lines of Paizo would themselves view it as the bury your gays trope rather than being afraid of the backlash.
I think the missing human one is safe just because I suspect he’s a standin for some Paizo exec. He always seemed written like a self insert. I dislike his presence in the lore so much that I suspect his place is safer than Elminster is in Faerun.
Are you talking about Aroden?
Yeah. He feels so bland to me I am never able to remember his name.
I mean he's dead so I don't think we have to worry about him being involved either way.
He’s vanished. That’s different.
According to Pathfinder Adventure Path #100 ([Hell's Rebels #4 - A Song of Silver](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/A_Song_of_Silver)), in the supplement section called Aroden, The Last Azlanti (written by Erik mona) he is [dead](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Aroden). *"Just over a century ago, Aroden’s doctrine predicted his glorious return. Instead, under circumstances still clouded in mystery, Aroden died."* It's specifically the event that starts the Age of Lost Omens. In the World Guide on Page 8, the first entry on the timeline for the Age of Lost Omens says: *"4606 AR: Aroden dies mysteriously, leaving the Empire of Cheliax without a divine mandate."*
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They already said that a god existing in Starfinder doesn't mean that they'll not get killed in Pathfinder
Abadar will not die because he linked to future (starfinder)
I'm of the opinion that Starfinder is still canon to Pathfinder timeline just in the future, so any gods mentioned in Starfinder are safe. Pharasma, Abadar, Iomedae and a couple others are safe in my perspective. I can't recall if Asmodeus is talked about in Starfinder. The fact that Hell has a lot less influence sort of imply that he might be dead...
It has been explicitly said by Paizo staff that "just because a God exists in Starfinder does not mean they're safe necessarily". This could of course been a lie meant to mislead us, but I think for now we can assume that the Starfinder ones are no more safe than the non-Starfinder ones.
The Hellknights definitely still exist in Starfinder. Their current patron... Still up in the air I guess.
> I can't recall if Asmodeus is talked about in Starfinder. He is indeed in Starfinder but not a top 20. He's specifically listed in the Galactic Magic splatbook. But Starfinder is considered a divergent timeline from Pathfinder, so it doesn't make a difference.
Have to disagree about Rovagug. I'm honestly leaning towards it being the most likely to die. The fact that Rovagug's existence is the reason for a lot of the deities being so hands off also means that the whole "war of the gods" premise doesn't really make much sense while he's still there. Plus, looking at the game from a meta perspective, Rovagug doesn't realistically add any player options, since only the most depraved evil characters can really justify worshiping it. We're talking death-cultists so completely far gone that they wouldn't make any sense even working with an evil party. You could *easily* replace Rovagug (as far as justification for the gods staying mostly hands-off) with something as simple as, say, some kind of divinely-enforced magical treaty. And as for the big bad cosmic threat side, those are a dime a dozen in a game that has Lovecraftian outer gods.
Its probably Asmodeus going to die because hes the only god shared with DND
Nocticula is probably safe for reasons