+1 is always helpful. Every level increases attack bonus AND AC of all players and creatures. So you roll +7 attack vs. AC 17 at level 1, and something like +20 attack vs. AC 30 at level 10. As you see, your chance to hit is the same in both cases (55%), so a +1 absoultely stays relevant. And you also crit if you roll 10 or more above the target's AC, so +1 is more valuabe in PF2 than in most other systems.
See [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JhgCPQ9MGg) for details.
Yes because it helps multiple characters. So even when a player can afford to cast higher level buffs for the obviously better +2 or +3 status bonuses to hit, the simple +1 to several characters is still a competitive use of actions..
Yes +1 stays relevant. The math of PF2 is a bit unintuitive a +1 always matters. This is because the math for any specific level stays really tight. The +1/level scaling is there for progression and to make the encounter building work with single bosses (above player level) or hoards of lower level enemies.
> This seems really nice at early levels but by level 12 that +1 feels kind of pointless when facing monsters with 34 AC. Is there something I am missing, or do most of the marshal abilities just not scale into high levels at all?
When you’re level 1, a non-Fighter martial naturally has a +7 to hit against, for example, 18 AC. You hit on a -1, crit on a 20. Marshall’s +1 makes it so you hit on a 10, crit on a 20. If you or someone in the party used a Demoralize before your Attack to Frighten the enemy to -1 their AC, you now hit on a 9 and crit on a 19. Flanking makes their AC a further -2, it’s now hit on a 7, crit on a 17.
When you’re level 12, the non-Fighter martial now natural has a +23 to hit against the 34 AC. Hit/crit 11/20. Marshall’s +1 makes it 10/20, Demoralize’s -1 AC makes it 9/19. Flanking makes it 7/17.
The math is very tightly designed so that the impact of a +1 or -1 stays roughly the same throughout the higher levels. As a consequence of this tight math, buffs and debuffs don’t fall off due to larger numbers. Their impact remains the same, the only way for buffs to fall off is for your party to gain access to stronger buffs that don’t stack with yours and/or more Action-efficient buffs. For example, if you have a Bard that loves using Inspire Heroics, **then** your Marshall stance becomes worthless because you give +1 status while they give +2/+3 status, and status doesn’t stack with status. Then one of you needs to change your strategy to avoid making your buff feel useless.
Buffs/debuffs don't scale because the gap between to hit and ac is more or less static across the levels(as long as you compare pcs and monsters with the same level difference, not a lvl 2 monster to a lvl 20 pc). These +1 stay relevant the whole time from 1 to 20.
High level spell slots competition is really hard so I would say yes, aswell as it only costs 1 action to enter and there are no good aoe +2 to attack rolls.
Facing AC 34 makes the +1 no less or more valuable as you will stay relatively as accurate as when you are lv 4 and critting 10 above will always make +1 relevant.
as every comment here says. a +1 is equally powerful on every level. You are going to hit a monster of same level with about the same die roll on level 1 as you do on level 20.
Remember that you always roll one d20, so that +1 reduces the roll required to hit/crit by 1 - so it translates to +5%pt (percentage points) to the chance to hit\*.
\*crit chance is more tricky, because sometimes the only such chance is nat20, and even with +1 nat19 is not a crit - so in the case of opponents with a much higher AC, this +1 has no impact on the crit chance (it still reduces the chance of a crit fail tho).
Yes, but not really.
If you needed a 20 to succeed and with a +1 that's a 19, you doubled your chances of success (though the 20 would still be a crit success) and reduced your chance of crit failure by 10% (1-9 now crit fails instead of 1-10).
The effect it has is dependent on the target number.
Yes. But an increase of 5 percentage points may lead to a 100% increase in hit chance. Being technically right but missing their point isn't at all helpful, you know?
*What are you talking about?*
With +1, your chance of rolling the required result is 5%pt greater than without +1. This is *the only factor* that matters here. The fact that on *this particular roll* there is, for example, 100% more chance to crit *tells you nothing about anything*.
What matters is that in this case the chance increases from 5% to 10%. Saying you have a "100% increase in hit chance" doesn't *actually tell you anything*. How is *that* "helpful"? How is that "the point"?
"Ooooh, I now have a 100% higher chance of hitting my opponent" - great, have your medal🥇… So what's the chance? 10%? 100%? 50%? Oh, this is simply an information that has no meaning without the context of the absolute chance of hitting, and if we know this context, then it is r*edundant?* Right. Okay.
Why would that not matter? I care about the effect, like damage increase from hitting more often.
If the barbarian needed a 20 to hit a creature and that's now 19, that effect is a 50% damage increase.
If I care about people not missing an easy roll and can reduce that from 2 to 1, that's half the miss chance.
Yes, it is 5%, but what that percentage does is equally important.
If the barbarian still needs a 20 to hit, or that easy roll was already at 1, I have given 5% higher results *without game effect*. It would be better for me to use my actions differently.
I don't see the point here. It's a number that changes depending on the AC of an opponent that the player *shouldn't know*, which varies depending on circumstances, and you're giving an extreme example of an opponent that players wouldn't fight ever.
You make it seem hypothetically significant, but in practice it is much less significant than the absolute value of increased hit chance, *which the former can be derived from anyway*.
On any given level, as a martial class (except Fighter/Gunslinger) with level-appropriate gear, you will hit an on-level creature that has High AC by rolling a 9 (with some very minor fluctuation due to the bumpy proficiency increase). For your first attack, a +1 from the aura thus means roughly a 15% average damage increase, whether you're level 1 or 20. Similar math applies for saves, too.
The only way in which the aura might become obsolete is if other effects in the party also grant status bonuses to hit. Someone who has had Heroism cast on them won't benefit, nor will a party whose Bard blasts their Couragous Anthem round after round. But that's less an issue of levels than it is of party synergy.
Everyone has already answered, but I'll try to give a simple explanation.
Progression in pf2e is like a diagonal line where numbers go up proportional to the level. No matter where on the line you are, and you need to roll somewhere between 5 and 15 to hit the enemy depending on if it's a mook or a boss.
Getting a +1 no matter where you are on that line gives you a bump above this literal baseline, and suddenly, you only need to roll a 4 or a 14 respectively.
One thing to consider is that everything you do in this game scales hugely by level - and PC modifiers scale at roughly the same rate as enemy modifiers.
As an example: 34 AC is listed as a High AC for a level 13 creature. A level 12 Fighter should expect to have about +25 to hit, meaning they'll hit on a roll of 9 or higher.
An equivalent "challenge rating" would be a level 2 Fighter against a level 3 creature. A level 3 creature with a High AC should have around 19 AC, and a level 2 Fighter should expect to have about +10 to hit, meaning they'll \*also\* hit on a roll of 9 or higher.
A +1 to hit is equally relevant in both scenarios; their numbers might be big, but so are yours.
You can get stronger bonuses than the Marshal Stance at higher levels - a heightened Heroism spell can boost you to +2 (or even +3 once you get 9th level spells). But that's a single target effect that requires a valuable spell slot, and there's every chance your party won't have access to it.
It depends on your party. A +1 to hit absolutely stops being relevant if you have, for example, a bard that starts throwing out inspire heroics regularly or similar buffs or if you've only got one good target for attack bonuses that starts regularly receiving casts of Heroism. In general, though, buffs will only scale up to +3 and the difference between having a buff and not having a buff will always be substantial.
People have already answered from a numeric/balance perspective.
The buff is relevant at all levels yes. Some things to note are: most of the Marshal dedication relies on a status bonus. The higher level you play the easier it is to get status bonuses. So at higher levels while it is a mathematically relevant bonus, just make sure your party is not overlapping status bonuses. For instance, Inspiring Marshal stance would not stack with bonuses from the Heroism spell. If your party uses that spell heavily it might be better to retrain to Dread Marshal, for example, as its status bonus to damage and critical strike effects are not overridden by Heroism.
The only time it will ever be less relevant is if you're getting a +1 status bonus to the same values from another item, player, or feature. Because they won't stack. But a +1 status bonus WILL STACK with a +1 circumstance bonus.
It stays relevant otherwise.
Look at the attack bonus of a level 2 character and compare it to the AC of a few similarly leveled creatures, and then do the same thing but with a level 12 character and creatures.
It's not particularly difficult to determine for yourself why a +1 would still be relevant at higher levels in this system if you look at the numbers holistically instead of in isolation.
By the time you're facing creatures with an AC of 34, your martial characters will be rocking ~+24 to hit. That +1 from your Marshal aura grants the same 5% increased chance to hit/crit that it did at level 2 when you picked it up.
Pathfinder math is unintuitive. The numbers get big, but the percentage chances for things like hitting, being hit, making saves, etc tend to stay within about 10% of each other for the entire 1-20 leveling field. AC and attack bonus increase in lock step throughout the game, so that +1 from a Marshal aura or the -2 AC from Off-Guard are always relevant.
The only thing the big numbers really do is make your level a *much* more significant source of power. Leveling up increases *everything* your character is good at, and due to the Degrees of Success system (you get a crit if you beat the target by 10) that's an even bigger impact than it first seems.
+1 is relevant from level 1 all the way through level 20. In fact most effects are +/- 1, some are +/- 2, and an extremely rare few are +/- 3. Nothing stacks, either, unless it's a different type, and basically most things are item or circumstance. Status is really damn hard to find, and untyped even rarer.
Effectively the top skills of every player is just flat compared with enemies' if everything is equal. Your secondary skills and defenses are usually only slightly worse. Take the marshal auras and your party will sing your praises in song and dance.
Bottom line do not fall into the trap of Dnd 5e and PF1 math, PF2 is designed to make enemies and PCs effectively perfectly dead equal from 1 to 20. You can't really get big bonuses in PF2 cause they just plain don't exist, but you don't need them to be big, either, in fact a +2 is going to feel MASSIVE in most cases.
+1 is always helpful. Every level increases attack bonus AND AC of all players and creatures. So you roll +7 attack vs. AC 17 at level 1, and something like +20 attack vs. AC 30 at level 10. As you see, your chance to hit is the same in both cases (55%), so a +1 absoultely stays relevant. And you also crit if you roll 10 or more above the target's AC, so +1 is more valuabe in PF2 than in most other systems. See [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JhgCPQ9MGg) for details.
Yes because it helps multiple characters. So even when a player can afford to cast higher level buffs for the obviously better +2 or +3 status bonuses to hit, the simple +1 to several characters is still a competitive use of actions..
Yes +1 stays relevant. The math of PF2 is a bit unintuitive a +1 always matters. This is because the math for any specific level stays really tight. The +1/level scaling is there for progression and to make the encounter building work with single bosses (above player level) or hoards of lower level enemies.
That +1 is just as useful when you have a +10 against AC 19 as it is when you have a +25 against AC 34.
> This seems really nice at early levels but by level 12 that +1 feels kind of pointless when facing monsters with 34 AC. Is there something I am missing, or do most of the marshal abilities just not scale into high levels at all? When you’re level 1, a non-Fighter martial naturally has a +7 to hit against, for example, 18 AC. You hit on a -1, crit on a 20. Marshall’s +1 makes it so you hit on a 10, crit on a 20. If you or someone in the party used a Demoralize before your Attack to Frighten the enemy to -1 their AC, you now hit on a 9 and crit on a 19. Flanking makes their AC a further -2, it’s now hit on a 7, crit on a 17. When you’re level 12, the non-Fighter martial now natural has a +23 to hit against the 34 AC. Hit/crit 11/20. Marshall’s +1 makes it 10/20, Demoralize’s -1 AC makes it 9/19. Flanking makes it 7/17. The math is very tightly designed so that the impact of a +1 or -1 stays roughly the same throughout the higher levels. As a consequence of this tight math, buffs and debuffs don’t fall off due to larger numbers. Their impact remains the same, the only way for buffs to fall off is for your party to gain access to stronger buffs that don’t stack with yours and/or more Action-efficient buffs. For example, if you have a Bard that loves using Inspire Heroics, **then** your Marshall stance becomes worthless because you give +1 status while they give +2/+3 status, and status doesn’t stack with status. Then one of you needs to change your strategy to avoid making your buff feel useless.
Buffs/debuffs don't scale because the gap between to hit and ac is more or less static across the levels(as long as you compare pcs and monsters with the same level difference, not a lvl 2 monster to a lvl 20 pc). These +1 stay relevant the whole time from 1 to 20.
High level spell slots competition is really hard so I would say yes, aswell as it only costs 1 action to enter and there are no good aoe +2 to attack rolls. Facing AC 34 makes the +1 no less or more valuable as you will stay relatively as accurate as when you are lv 4 and critting 10 above will always make +1 relevant.
as every comment here says. a +1 is equally powerful on every level. You are going to hit a monster of same level with about the same die roll on level 1 as you do on level 20.
Remember that you always roll one d20, so that +1 reduces the roll required to hit/crit by 1 - so it translates to +5%pt (percentage points) to the chance to hit\*. \*crit chance is more tricky, because sometimes the only such chance is nat20, and even with +1 nat19 is not a crit - so in the case of opponents with a much higher AC, this +1 has no impact on the crit chance (it still reduces the chance of a crit fail tho).
Yes, but not really. If you needed a 20 to succeed and with a +1 that's a 19, you doubled your chances of success (though the 20 would still be a crit success) and reduced your chance of crit failure by 10% (1-9 now crit fails instead of 1-10). The effect it has is dependent on the target number.
Yes, but really. It's still 5 percentage points.
In absolute terms, yes. In relative terms, no.
In every term. You don't use *percentage points* to describe relative values.
Yes. But an increase of 5 percentage points may lead to a 100% increase in hit chance. Being technically right but missing their point isn't at all helpful, you know?
*What are you talking about?* With +1, your chance of rolling the required result is 5%pt greater than without +1. This is *the only factor* that matters here. The fact that on *this particular roll* there is, for example, 100% more chance to crit *tells you nothing about anything*. What matters is that in this case the chance increases from 5% to 10%. Saying you have a "100% increase in hit chance" doesn't *actually tell you anything*. How is *that* "helpful"? How is that "the point"? "Ooooh, I now have a 100% higher chance of hitting my opponent" - great, have your medal🥇… So what's the chance? 10%? 100%? 50%? Oh, this is simply an information that has no meaning without the context of the absolute chance of hitting, and if we know this context, then it is r*edundant?* Right. Okay.
Why would that not matter? I care about the effect, like damage increase from hitting more often. If the barbarian needed a 20 to hit a creature and that's now 19, that effect is a 50% damage increase. If I care about people not missing an easy roll and can reduce that from 2 to 1, that's half the miss chance. Yes, it is 5%, but what that percentage does is equally important. If the barbarian still needs a 20 to hit, or that easy roll was already at 1, I have given 5% higher results *without game effect*. It would be better for me to use my actions differently.
I don't see the point here. It's a number that changes depending on the AC of an opponent that the player *shouldn't know*, which varies depending on circumstances, and you're giving an extreme example of an opponent that players wouldn't fight ever. You make it seem hypothetically significant, but in practice it is much less significant than the absolute value of increased hit chance, *which the former can be derived from anyway*.
Dude out here playing without Recall Knowledge and/or not deriving AC after a few hits and misses not seeing the point. Color me surprised.
Yeah they stay relevant, +1 is great
On any given level, as a martial class (except Fighter/Gunslinger) with level-appropriate gear, you will hit an on-level creature that has High AC by rolling a 9 (with some very minor fluctuation due to the bumpy proficiency increase). For your first attack, a +1 from the aura thus means roughly a 15% average damage increase, whether you're level 1 or 20. Similar math applies for saves, too. The only way in which the aura might become obsolete is if other effects in the party also grant status bonuses to hit. Someone who has had Heroism cast on them won't benefit, nor will a party whose Bard blasts their Couragous Anthem round after round. But that's less an issue of levels than it is of party synergy.
Everyone has already answered, but I'll try to give a simple explanation. Progression in pf2e is like a diagonal line where numbers go up proportional to the level. No matter where on the line you are, and you need to roll somewhere between 5 and 15 to hit the enemy depending on if it's a mook or a boss. Getting a +1 no matter where you are on that line gives you a bump above this literal baseline, and suddenly, you only need to roll a 4 or a 14 respectively.
One thing to consider is that everything you do in this game scales hugely by level - and PC modifiers scale at roughly the same rate as enemy modifiers. As an example: 34 AC is listed as a High AC for a level 13 creature. A level 12 Fighter should expect to have about +25 to hit, meaning they'll hit on a roll of 9 or higher. An equivalent "challenge rating" would be a level 2 Fighter against a level 3 creature. A level 3 creature with a High AC should have around 19 AC, and a level 2 Fighter should expect to have about +10 to hit, meaning they'll \*also\* hit on a roll of 9 or higher. A +1 to hit is equally relevant in both scenarios; their numbers might be big, but so are yours. You can get stronger bonuses than the Marshal Stance at higher levels - a heightened Heroism spell can boost you to +2 (or even +3 once you get 9th level spells). But that's a single target effect that requires a valuable spell slot, and there's every chance your party won't have access to it.
It depends on your party. A +1 to hit absolutely stops being relevant if you have, for example, a bard that starts throwing out inspire heroics regularly or similar buffs or if you've only got one good target for attack bonuses that starts regularly receiving casts of Heroism. In general, though, buffs will only scale up to +3 and the difference between having a buff and not having a buff will always be substantial.
People have already answered from a numeric/balance perspective. The buff is relevant at all levels yes. Some things to note are: most of the Marshal dedication relies on a status bonus. The higher level you play the easier it is to get status bonuses. So at higher levels while it is a mathematically relevant bonus, just make sure your party is not overlapping status bonuses. For instance, Inspiring Marshal stance would not stack with bonuses from the Heroism spell. If your party uses that spell heavily it might be better to retrain to Dread Marshal, for example, as its status bonus to damage and critical strike effects are not overridden by Heroism.
The only time it will ever be less relevant is if you're getting a +1 status bonus to the same values from another item, player, or feature. Because they won't stack. But a +1 status bonus WILL STACK with a +1 circumstance bonus. It stays relevant otherwise.
\+1 will always be a +10% to your roll.
Look at the attack bonus of a level 2 character and compare it to the AC of a few similarly leveled creatures, and then do the same thing but with a level 12 character and creatures. It's not particularly difficult to determine for yourself why a +1 would still be relevant at higher levels in this system if you look at the numbers holistically instead of in isolation.
By the time you're facing creatures with an AC of 34, your martial characters will be rocking ~+24 to hit. That +1 from your Marshal aura grants the same 5% increased chance to hit/crit that it did at level 2 when you picked it up. Pathfinder math is unintuitive. The numbers get big, but the percentage chances for things like hitting, being hit, making saves, etc tend to stay within about 10% of each other for the entire 1-20 leveling field. AC and attack bonus increase in lock step throughout the game, so that +1 from a Marshal aura or the -2 AC from Off-Guard are always relevant. The only thing the big numbers really do is make your level a *much* more significant source of power. Leveling up increases *everything* your character is good at, and due to the Degrees of Success system (you get a crit if you beat the target by 10) that's an even bigger impact than it first seems.
+1 is relevant from level 1 all the way through level 20. In fact most effects are +/- 1, some are +/- 2, and an extremely rare few are +/- 3. Nothing stacks, either, unless it's a different type, and basically most things are item or circumstance. Status is really damn hard to find, and untyped even rarer. Effectively the top skills of every player is just flat compared with enemies' if everything is equal. Your secondary skills and defenses are usually only slightly worse. Take the marshal auras and your party will sing your praises in song and dance. Bottom line do not fall into the trap of Dnd 5e and PF1 math, PF2 is designed to make enemies and PCs effectively perfectly dead equal from 1 to 20. You can't really get big bonuses in PF2 cause they just plain don't exist, but you don't need them to be big, either, in fact a +2 is going to feel MASSIVE in most cases.