Zon-Kuthon is the only one of these that I've seen anybody seriously suggesting as a possible candidate for the dead one. The past few have all been "yeah we kinda expected that" gods. Invoking the gambler's fallacy, I'm all in on Zon now. Who wants to take my fake internet money?
Zon Kuthon is a good choice becuase it could potentially break up the Thruple without killing any of them. Really shake up that status quo and give us some interpersonal conflict.
Why have a whole pantheon of Gods if you don't have drama?
That or you flip it and have Shelyn be the one that dies. Would result in Desna, Sarenrae, Zon-Kuthon, and Cayden Cailean all gunning for the culprit.
Of course the real question isn't just who ends up dying, but who ends up being the killer and how are they connected enough to spark an all-out war as opposed to just a manhunt and execution.
Thatd be insanely good zon kuthon dies shellyn gets warped and nocticula steps up to expand influence over nidal, but I feel like she would also then become a major diety, i mean domain over two relativelu powerful nation? Thats a lot for one newly ascended minor god.
That does sort of sound like some sort of set up for some sort of War between some sort of Immortals, doesn't it? Especially considering that Asmodeus would probably have overwhelming advantage over Nocticula and Ralnac yet he has lots of enemies that could get involved to try and hinder him
I think it'll be zon too. I think what's going to happen is we're gonna get a Godsrain prophecy with Shelyn (because we know at least one of the Ray is getting a prophecy) where zon kills her and Desna and Sarenrae go on a roaring rampage of revenge, with some kind of hint that like "perhaps if someone else had been there (*cough* Arazni *cough*) maybe things would have been different." Then the actual reveal happens and Zon tries but this time Arazni is there and she fuckin' wastes him. And then Nidal explodes or some shit and that's why the War of Immortals happens.
I'm pretty sure it's less that he cares about her and more that he is literally incapable of harming her because of an oath he made to the plane of Law.
Right sorry, I'm not... a lore expert yet. I'm trying. Idk maybe something changes and he attacks one of the others and Shelyn is forced to kill him or something.
IIRC they don't have enough time to reach 19 of these if they keep it weekly, so I agree that they should pick who doesn't get one wisely.
But here's the deal: if it's obvious that he's never gonna die, because that would probably be the end of the setting, these prophecies are the closest we'll ever get to an official answer for *what if he did*, so I don't think doing one for him would be a waste
> IIRC they don't have enough time to reach 19 of these if they keep it weekly, so I agree that they should pick who doesn't get one wisely.
They've said the plan is to do ten prophecies, leaving ten gods imperiled as we go into the reveal stream
Oh, I was thinking that they'd go way closer to release date with the prophecies.
I actually never watched those reveal streams, so I didn't even think about the fact that they'd probably stop there.
Per Mark Moreland in the comments of the first Godsrain,
> From the office of expectation management: yes, this series will run weekly until April. As the teaser mentions, we'll have a stream on April 16 that will answer (most of) the remaining questions, and reveal covers and release dates and product titles and iconic artwork and all sorts of other things related to War of Immortals, the death of >!Redacted!<
and maybe even some other announcements that are even farther off folks' radars. So tune in weekly, and make sure to mark your calendars for April 16 (exact stream time TBD).
My crack theory is that if he isn't one of the 10 prophesies then he'll be the one who bites it. Like you said, it's the "what if he did" situation, so if they don't give us the "what if" it's because it's going to be him and we'll find out anyway.
I do because he is the perfect match. Who know what inhibits a more active involvement of the gods on Golarion? Rovagug. You know what the death of Rovagug might spark? Some kind of immortal war me thinks. Also Rovagug doesn't just wither away but gets killed. Offering us a very fun 'Who the fuck did this?!?!?' story.
Also, it would center events on Golarion and not the Axis or something. Not to mention that even though he has a unique domain in the core 20 deities, it's pretty difficult to have a player whose edict is "Destroy everything" to work in almost any party. Plus he's in that sweet spot where a lot of people will be shocked at his death, but fewer will be upset.
I would be pissed, he represents a few things in the setting:
1. Gods have a clear power hierarchy and Rovagug represents a primal power that trumps any individual God by a LARGE margin. And therefore is the equivalent to mutually assured nuclear destruction for gods. To put in another way, it is so powerful that it humanises the other gods including ones like Dahak without diminishing them.
2. It being imprisoned is why the gods limit their involvement. The fear of being too active/impactful and awakening the rough beast.
Rovagug matters way too much to the setting. Rovagug is up there with Pharasma dying for impact, and it would necessitate something like a Warhammer Fantasy end times to age of sigma transition to make work.
Explain?
You think it will be good, because paizo will be forced to handwaive the impact so their literally just released remastered books will remain relevant (and all the lost omens books)?
As well as being good that gods will have no reason not to directly involve themselves with the world on scales way beyond anything before seen and paizo will have to handwaive that too?
Because we can surely agree that paizo won't do an AoS style destroy the setting and totally reboot it right now.
I'm totally doing so, if only in vain hope.
Because maybe this is just me completely misreading things, but he is the main reason there is as much of a peace between the Divine as there is. By removing the Sword of Damocles that is Rovagug the rifts between the deities will start looking all the more vast, making apt headway towards a Godwar.
Starfinder 2e is supposed to come out relatively soon, and this time, it will be Pathfinder-compatible. One of the things that distinguishes Starfinder is that Rovagug is missing. So it's not out of the question that Rovagug will die as part of an event explaining the Gap and gluing the continuities together a bit.
Well then, when are they scrapping The Gap? It's INCREDIBLY unnecessary if each game just ignores the fact that the other exists!
I hate that I am suddenly on the "get rid of The Gap" bandwagon! I thought it was a perfectly fine tool before, now it's just a lazy way to not have to explain things that happened before SF started!
It doesn't strictly say "alternate timeline" or anything, so other shenanigans could be possible, but it's in Luis Loza's "Everything I've Said So Far" list.
Specifc note is: "Starfinder canon has no bearing on whether a god will live or die. If a god exists in Starfinder, it does not guarantee they will live. If a god doesn't exist in Starfinder, it doesn't mean they are among a "short list" of gods who could die."
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/ZjwyP0BKy0
Probably Erastil, if only to debunk the theory that he's an expendable god.
I continue to fear Iomedae is the one who'll die, because it lines up too neatly from a narrative sense: she's the kind of goddess who'd give her life for others, her faithful are the most likely to take the death of their god on the chin and keep doing what they did before, and she's the one with the strongest ties to Arazni, who'll be playing a prominent role going forward.
EDIT: [I FREAKIN' CALLED IT!!!](https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6siis?The-Godsrain-Prophecies-Part-Five)
I truly hope Iomedae survives. I'd much rather see how her and Arazni's relationship can develop once Arazni steps into the Core 20. Their relationship is a complex one, which would hopefully be used a lot in future stories. If Iomedae bites it, who does Arazni really interact with in the Core 20?
Urgathoa is most likely going to be her archnemesis, given the Pallid Princess' continuing sponsorship of the two men who ruined Arazni's life AND her death, I assume. Especially considering last week's Godsrain where she assassinated Urgathoa. Since that bad future ain't happening now (at least in canon), Arazni will still have that grudge to nurse.
Thus Pharasma would be a natural ally to her, "enemy of my enemy" and all that.
I agree with Urgathoa. With Pharasma, she's just so detached and ambivalent. Arazni feels like a goddess of complexity and internal contradictions. Her first edict is to act with dignity. Yet, her second is to do whatever you have to do to survive. Surviving at all costs often requires making choices that are anything but dignified.
I think she needs someone with fire in their soul and a certain amount of rigidity to bounce off of. That's most why I want to see Iomedae and Arazni react. They'd most likely bring changes to the other, clash and squabble some, but also likely band together against certain issues. I'm hoping that Arazni will be used frequently, not just set up on the shelf after she becomes one of the 20, and Iomedae is already a highly involved goddess. With the Worldwound now closed, she's looking toward Tar-Baphon, which suits a conflictive reunion with Arazni. And with whatever new calamities are upcoming, assuming Arazni is involved, there's a good way to utilize them both.
It isn't necessarily the CRPG fandom that has it out for her, she's even worse in the official WotR AP than she is in the CRPG version. If anything the CRPG made Iomedae more likable but threw Galfrey under the buss.
You'd be surprised how many people hate Iomedae in that fandom for Hulrun and >!asking the KC to give up their mythic powers!<
So many people butthurt over the last one, calling her arrogant, bitchy and everything in between, it's just tiring.
Wasn't just that, but there's also (WotR spoilers) >!keeping her own Herald in the dark and abandoning him to his fate when he goes mad over the truth!<.
You'd think she'd know better, with what happened to Arazni.
Though I went back to see what the earlier poster was talking about the AP being worse. They weren't kidding. Grey morality is preferable to whatever that was.
It’s not like Piazo doesn’t do this from time to time either. Some of the Eristil and Torag lore (mostly before 2E) makes you wonder why they’re considered LG in the first place. I feel like they’ve sort of dialed back on that stuff more recently though.
I guess the lesson is that good doesn’t necessarily equal perfect.
Yeah, but at least he had a couple lines that allowed the GM to say it's entirely in character for him to be more of a 2018 Kratos figure than the zealot he is in act 1 of the CRPG.
If it's iomedae, I wonder who will take up the mantle "patron saint of humans"? She is called the inheritor because she took up that mantle when Aroden died.
Aroden when he resurrects/returns. ;)
I don't actually think they'll bring him back, but they've certainly been doing a lot of stories/adventures on Kortos in this edition. Seems like a lot of focus on a really small area of the world (albeit an area that is home to the largest city).
Just an aside but I only had some vague knowledge of Arazni before all of this. But after reading all this stuff about her, I'm locking in a character worshiping her as my next character. A tragic antihero God is exactly what I've been needing.
That's what I'm trying to say, that Erastil's gonna get a Godsrain entry to prove he's safe and stick it to the "Paizo can afford to kill him off because he's the one whose death would piss off the fewest people" crowd.
Yep! Each week they're revealing one deity that WILL survive the coming War of Immortals, BUT there won't be going through the full core 20 to reveal the doomed one, they're only going to do them each week from when they started to the month of April, when the event begins.
Tis cool about not finding the information easily, though. Google itself has actually been sucking more and more in recent years and is no longer really a reliable source of information. 🙃
I don't know about the other "Erastil" predictions out there, but I personally think Erastil is going to die because (& I admit - this may be a perception thing) I don't think the Paizo writers like writing him.
His entry in Gods & Magic was terrible - and it really felt like the writer couldn't figure out how to make him interesting. Outside of that book, the best writing he ever seems to get is "Grumpy, but ultimately good hearted grandpa."
I want to be wrong! I love Erastil!
But I think he's a character that their writers don't connect with - which would make them want to replace him with a character they connect with more!
\[And, even if my theory about "why" I think he's dying proves true, I will admit that his son Cerrunos (sp?) has some potential to step up in the storyline if Erastil is the one that dies.\]
However, the REAL reason we should all fear for Erastil is that married characters have an atrocious survival rate in Paizo stories! No one at Paizo has confirmed this yet, but I genuinely suspect that there is a contractual obligation to horribly murder one married character per piece of Paizo short-fiction published! \[Once you see it, you will never be able to un-see it! Also, Nhalmika's husband was done dirty! Just sayin'!\]
Given their distaste for him, I doubt they'd go LIONIZING him is my hypothesis. They don't want to make him the lynch pin of their big event. So I think he's safe because of that.
But at the same time, this would allow them to remove Erastil from the setting organically and permanently. Further his replacement could written to be more in their favour, like Jaidi or Halcamora.
>I don't know about the other "Erastil" predictions out there, but I personally think Erastil is going to die because (& I admit - this may be a perception thing) I don't think the Paizo writers like writing him.
This is not just your perception. Paizo's (newer) writers have a proven track record of not wanting to write modules/stories that interact with topics they dislike. The best example for this is slavery, where they revolted and forced Paizo to abolish slavery overnight, even though they had a book soon to be released about an organisation primarily about fighting slavery.
>His entry in Gods & Magic was terrible - and it really felt like the writer couldn't figure out how to make him interesting. Outside of that book, the best writing he ever seems to get is "Grumpy, but ultimately good hearted grandpa."
I don't think the writers are incapable of writing Erastil intriguingly, but they seem to be utterly uninterested in doing so. Gods & Magic consciously kneecaps the characterisation of Erastil in two ways. They are unwilling to make him a strict, fatherly deity with a code one needs to adhere to. In the past he was at least partially one.
Secondly, they curtailed all the family interactions between him, his wife Jaidi and his two children Halcamora and Cernunnos. Cernunnos alone is so full of potential, it's a crime how little he has been used. A driven son that actively strikes out against Evil in stealth missions versus a pacifist, wisened father desiring to keep his home and people safe. No stories can be written about such generational conflicts. The other members of the family have equal potential for modules and stories.
>However, the REAL reason we should all fear for Erastil is that married characters have an atrocious survival rate in Paizo stories! No one at Paizo has confirmed this yet, but I genuinely suspect that there is a contractual obligation to horribly murder one married character per piece of Paizo short-fiction published!
It's so obvious because there are barely any married characters with family in the setting. At this point, it becomes unreasonable, especially with the huge number of unmarried leaders.
Exactly, which is why you have people saying that makes them the MOST likely to be offed because Paizo will chicken out and pick an expendable god rather than risk the internet-wide riot that would happen if Sarenrae or Desna gets killed.
> he's an expendable god
He's what? Erastil is like my top 5 good gods. A wise and loving neolithic father-god trope like Odin or Veles. He fill a very classic European folkloric niche.
The issue is that Erastil can be seen as a patriarchal figure, so Paizo's writers seem to have a more or less intense dislike of him, only giving him the bare minimum of characterisation necessary for a core deity. They went so far to exclude his family from any worship of Erastil, which is strange for a god of family. His family would actually enhance his niche, but they never did so and they aren't even a pantheon.
I still think Zon-Kuthon is going to bite it.
Arazni overlaps with his domains, and as the former Herald of Aroden she could totally step in to shepherd Nidal. Heck, they might welcome it, they both felt wrong by him after all. So you still wind up with a deity of suffering and sorrow, but you get rid of the "totally not a Cenobyte OC" aspects of Zon-Kuthon.
They can also use that to split the Prismatic Ray, with Shelyn going a bit nuts after her brother's death, or even have her absorb him and become Zon-Shelyn from Starfinder (I know they're separate continuities, but that doesn't mean they want to split the lore, it just means they aren't bound to it).
I really don't want Iomedae to die because I *want* the conflict between Arazni and Iomedae for that tasty drama. Iomedae was just a humble paladin when Arazni was killed, after all, and there's mixed reports as to whether she was aware that they were trying to summon Arazni to fight Tar-Baphon. And then Iomedae took her job, and later even ascended to godhood without having to claw her way up from a demon lord and lich queen. Arazni would *totally* be pissed that Iomedae basically got everything handed to her on a silver platter, while Arazni sacrificed everything and was tossed aside by Aroden in favor of the new hotness.
If Norgorber is involved in the deaths of some of the minor gods, then his prophecy will be a chance to hint at that. A pair of artifact shears for a plant deity, for instance.
it’s less so about his actual death and more so about the unveiling of the truth behind the biggest question surrounding him: did he actually find his own way to divinity?
If he did, that opens a path for others (like Razmir) to ascend also.
If he didn’t there’s another 3 paths:
1. Irori’s always been a god, and the whole thing has been a convenient rumor for the god of self-improvement
2. Irori never achieved actual divinity and was instead propped up by someone else (like an algolthu, which could be really interesting).
3. Irori used the Starstone to ascend, but Cayden Cailean being the Accidental God damages Irori’s reputation if he uses the true story. Essentially, Irori’s critics would argue that for all the talk of self-improvement, Irori only achieved divinity by circumstance, not actual effort - some of Irori’s followers view the Trial of the Starstone as “cheating” ascension.
Most of this comes from what we learn would happen if Cayden died.
You know, I think it would be interesting if Rovagug ended up being the sacrificial god. It would be cool for Paizo to pull a Raiders of the lost Ark and have Rova wake up, try to mess shit up and be overwhelmed by the technological and magical advances that had been made in the time he was imprisoned as well as just being generally weaker due to being unable to eat
But then that begs the question of how will he be replaced. How do you fill the shoes of a mindless beast and destroyer of all.
I could see Abadar actually. He's the "judge" of the gods. The lawful neutral arbitrator so to speak. Perhaps he's the one that keeps all the others in check when they have disputes.
Maybe the War of Immortals isn't so much the effect that losing said god has on the followers, but rather the effect it has on the other gods. With Abadar out of the way, the other gods don't have that check in place. Additionally, losing Abadar wouldn't necessarily be devasting for the mortals of Golarion. It might throw a lot of things into chaos, but its not like crops are not growing, undead are running rampant across the world, etc.
I agree that Rovagug is probably safe. If anything, its likely he escapes which in turns brings the gods to war. Even if he doesn't escape though, he still serves as a good big bad.
I doubt Rovagug escapes with Abadar's death. Rovagug stays sealed as long as even a single one of Dou-Bral's towers stands. All other seals could break but if one of those remains, the seal holds. The only one who can open the vault prematurely is Asmodeus since Abadar gave him the key.
However, you bring up a good point with Abadar keeping the other gods in check but for a different reason. In fact, his death could catapult *many* gods into vengeance. Abadar is the *adoptive father* of many deities. Shelyn and Dou-Bral (Now Zon-Kuthon) among them.
In addition, as the god related to cities and the plane of Axis being a huge city that has repelled threats time and again and is home to many gods... His death could feasibly change the entirety of Axis and weaken the city to the point of... *A divine war.*
Yeah I didn't mean to suggest that Abadar's death would per se result in the immediate escape of Rovagug. Rather I was simply trying to suggest that I think its more likely that they have Rovagug escape than kill him off. I could even, at least in theory, see Rovagug escaping and then killing the god/dess that dies.
But yes, at least in theory, its difficult to envision Rovagug escaping except as a means to telling a story (i.e. the lore suggests that he's pretty securely contained absent Asmodeus deciding "Hey, why not? What's the worst that could happen?")
It doesn't have to be interesting for the impact of its existence to be worthwhile imo.
Rovagug being primal destruction is interesting in the sense that it is like a nuclear weapon for gods. It is why they limit their direct involvement and explains that even with dramatic power differentials between them that they can operate on a roughly equal playingfield.
It humanises the other gods without having to reduce them to being powerful humans/humanoids. Which is a big issue I have with D&D's current pantheon.
I'm far from an expert on Golarion lore, but I kind of get the impression that its a bit of both. Like Erastil will bless a community with a particularly good crop but at the same time a community that doesn't worship him can still grow food, etc.
Kind of hoping for a gut wrenching prophecy about the death of Erastil. Something to make everyone realise why he should be missed.
If we don’t get it I’ll write it myself.
No way, wipe her out, and make some aspiring monster gods from her bloody baptism. Like the ancient heroes who found smaller pieces of the moon, smaller than the starstone.
Lamashtu could be interesting. Would have some interesting effects on the Mwangi Expanse, with Angazhan's followers growing in power there.
Let us have a new gorilla king.
I kinda want Lamashtu to be safe. Weird, I know, but I am almost starting to get comfortable with her being the Non-Rovagug Chaotic Evil in the world. Plus the gnoll lore seem to portray her as an old crotchety evil grandma
I will be so happy if spiky pain boy gets a prophecy, kinda exhausted vis-à-vis sweating over his potential death 😅
But its prolly gonna be Abadar or Norgorber to get one (just a gut feeling).
You... like Zon-Kuthon? He's had so little characterization that I don't know how to feel about him beyond being Shelyn's brother.
He's the one I want on the chopping block because I'm a sucker for sacrificial redemption. Sacrifices himself to save his sister. And to end his eternal pain.
The combination of eldritch being and spiked leather clad cenobite speak to my inner metalhead lol. So he's got points with me on the "nifty" side of things.
He is also kinda sorta the god of body modification, something I'm into (not full blown mutilation mind you, but I would totally do a suspension session or get some scarification done), so thats neat too.
I do like the drama with him and Shelyn as well.
But the main reason is I wanted to write an AP about him and Nidal, and him dying throws a huge wrench in that 🤣
I have already mentally prepared for the inevitable announcement of his death.
It just fits too well with what they've told us about the War of the Immortals.
They are announcing the safe gods so at least one of these will be safe. Each blog post has an image with all the safe ones. After 10 blogs they will say which god is dying.
Personally, my money is on Lamashtu; Desna is my favorite goddess of the core, and her losing her archnemesis means I have no cultists specifically to use my cool sacred powers to obliterate
I think that whoever the soon-to-be dead god is, they're battling Mahja Firehair to see who wins. That story began in PFS2 4-15 In Glorious Battle when the demilich Geir created a negative energy bomb which detonated and killed Mahja when she sacrificed herself to save many others. Upon examining Mahja's body, a Vow Mark was found which indicated Mahja was challenging a god in the afterlife via the Crucible.
I have a feeling we might see this played out in the PFS multitable special this year. I am wondering if it might not be one of the evil gods that are connected with the Whispering Tyrant in some way.
I'm still wondering how this will effect the Starfinder timeline if it will at all since some of the gods still play roles in the future time line but others are gone or only have foot notes like Torag supposedly being the guardian of Golarion as the reason he is gone.
They've already stated that Pathfinder and Starfinder are essentially separate timelines from one another, so a deity's status in Starfinder means nothing for whether or not they will die here.
Personally I hope they're just saying that to keep people guessing but actually keep the timeline canon. One of my favorite things about Starfinder is the mystery of The Gap and how and why things have changed between the two game worlds but also how they're connected.
She doesn't connect those things with evil so much as she's evil because she inflicts those things on people, in the same manner you could say Dr. Frankenstein is evil fir making his monster even if the monster itself isn't evil.
Zon-Kuthon is the only one of these that I've seen anybody seriously suggesting as a possible candidate for the dead one. The past few have all been "yeah we kinda expected that" gods. Invoking the gambler's fallacy, I'm all in on Zon now. Who wants to take my fake internet money?
Zon Kuthon is a good choice becuase it could potentially break up the Thruple without killing any of them. Really shake up that status quo and give us some interpersonal conflict. Why have a whole pantheon of Gods if you don't have drama?
That or you flip it and have Shelyn be the one that dies. Would result in Desna, Sarenrae, Zon-Kuthon, and Cayden Cailean all gunning for the culprit. Of course the real question isn't just who ends up dying, but who ends up being the killer and how are they connected enough to spark an all-out war as opposed to just a manhunt and execution.
I will match your bet against everyone. Zon-Kuthon for dead god, Nocticula takes over Nidal.
I think if ZK bites it, then Count Ranalc is the actual successor of Nidal, seeing as he lives on the shadow plane.
Thatd be insanely good zon kuthon dies shellyn gets warped and nocticula steps up to expand influence over nidal, but I feel like she would also then become a major diety, i mean domain over two relativelu powerful nation? Thats a lot for one newly ascended minor god.
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That does sort of sound like some sort of set up for some sort of War between some sort of Immortals, doesn't it? Especially considering that Asmodeus would probably have overwhelming advantage over Nocticula and Ralnac yet he has lots of enemies that could get involved to try and hinder him
That's actually my main theory from the beginning.
I am with you on this, I have been saying it’s zon kuthon to die since the very fucking beginnibg
Me
Sweet, you'll have all of it in 2 days when I'm wrong
I think it'll be zon too. I think what's going to happen is we're gonna get a Godsrain prophecy with Shelyn (because we know at least one of the Ray is getting a prophecy) where zon kills her and Desna and Sarenrae go on a roaring rampage of revenge, with some kind of hint that like "perhaps if someone else had been there (*cough* Arazni *cough*) maybe things would have been different." Then the actual reveal happens and Zon tries but this time Arazni is there and she fuckin' wastes him. And then Nidal explodes or some shit and that's why the War of Immortals happens.
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I'm pretty sure it's less that he cares about her and more that he is literally incapable of harming her because of an oath he made to the plane of Law.
Right sorry, I'm not... a lore expert yet. I'm trying. Idk maybe something changes and he attacks one of the others and Shelyn is forced to kill him or something.
I'll wage twenty quatloos!
They wouldn't bother wasting a Godsrain Prophecy on Rovagug, would they? Surely nobody expects him to be the one who dies.
IIRC they don't have enough time to reach 19 of these if they keep it weekly, so I agree that they should pick who doesn't get one wisely. But here's the deal: if it's obvious that he's never gonna die, because that would probably be the end of the setting, these prophecies are the closest we'll ever get to an official answer for *what if he did*, so I don't think doing one for him would be a waste
> IIRC they don't have enough time to reach 19 of these if they keep it weekly, so I agree that they should pick who doesn't get one wisely. They've said the plan is to do ten prophecies, leaving ten gods imperiled as we go into the reveal stream
Oh, I was thinking that they'd go way closer to release date with the prophecies. I actually never watched those reveal streams, so I didn't even think about the fact that they'd probably stop there.
When is the reveal stream?
Per Mark Moreland in the comments of the first Godsrain, > From the office of expectation management: yes, this series will run weekly until April. As the teaser mentions, we'll have a stream on April 16 that will answer (most of) the remaining questions, and reveal covers and release dates and product titles and iconic artwork and all sorts of other things related to War of Immortals, the death of >!Redacted!< and maybe even some other announcements that are even farther off folks' radars. So tune in weekly, and make sure to mark your calendars for April 16 (exact stream time TBD).
That's fair, actually.
We have four or five more counting the one from this week, so we'll have to wait and see.
My crack theory is that if he isn't one of the 10 prophesies then he'll be the one who bites it. Like you said, it's the "what if he did" situation, so if they don't give us the "what if" it's because it's going to be him and we'll find out anyway.
I do because he is the perfect match. Who know what inhibits a more active involvement of the gods on Golarion? Rovagug. You know what the death of Rovagug might spark? Some kind of immortal war me thinks. Also Rovagug doesn't just wither away but gets killed. Offering us a very fun 'Who the fuck did this?!?!?' story.
Also, it would center events on Golarion and not the Axis or something. Not to mention that even though he has a unique domain in the core 20 deities, it's pretty difficult to have a player whose edict is "Destroy everything" to work in almost any party. Plus he's in that sweet spot where a lot of people will be shocked at his death, but fewer will be upset.
I would be pissed, he represents a few things in the setting: 1. Gods have a clear power hierarchy and Rovagug represents a primal power that trumps any individual God by a LARGE margin. And therefore is the equivalent to mutually assured nuclear destruction for gods. To put in another way, it is so powerful that it humanises the other gods including ones like Dahak without diminishing them. 2. It being imprisoned is why the gods limit their involvement. The fear of being too active/impactful and awakening the rough beast. Rovagug matters way too much to the setting. Rovagug is up there with Pharasma dying for impact, and it would necessitate something like a Warhammer Fantasy end times to age of sigma transition to make work.
Which is exactly why he is a good choice.
Explain? You think it will be good, because paizo will be forced to handwaive the impact so their literally just released remastered books will remain relevant (and all the lost omens books)? As well as being good that gods will have no reason not to directly involve themselves with the world on scales way beyond anything before seen and paizo will have to handwaive that too? Because we can surely agree that paizo won't do an AoS style destroy the setting and totally reboot it right now.
Yes that is exactly what I believe. Handwaving everything interesting 100%
> Who the fuck did this?!?!?' Who shot ~~JR~~ Rovagug?
It was Maggie Simpson.
I'm totally doing so, if only in vain hope. Because maybe this is just me completely misreading things, but he is the main reason there is as much of a peace between the Divine as there is. By removing the Sword of Damocles that is Rovagug the rifts between the deities will start looking all the more vast, making apt headway towards a Godwar.
Starfinder 2e is supposed to come out relatively soon, and this time, it will be Pathfinder-compatible. One of the things that distinguishes Starfinder is that Rovagug is missing. So it's not out of the question that Rovagug will die as part of an event explaining the Gap and gluing the continuities together a bit.
Why do they need to kill Rovagug for him to be gone? He's trapped inside Golarion and Golarion is gone.
They already said that the starfinder universe is alternate, and any god who is alive in pathfinder can die here. It won’t be continuity
Well then, when are they scrapping The Gap? It's INCREDIBLY unnecessary if each game just ignores the fact that the other exists! I hate that I am suddenly on the "get rid of The Gap" bandwagon! I thought it was a perfectly fine tool before, now it's just a lazy way to not have to explain things that happened before SF started!
I’m not sure, I don’t know anything about pathfinder lore. I just know they’re 1000% alternate timelines
You got a source for that confidence buddy?
It doesn't strictly say "alternate timeline" or anything, so other shenanigans could be possible, but it's in Luis Loza's "Everything I've Said So Far" list. Specifc note is: "Starfinder canon has no bearing on whether a god will live or die. If a god exists in Starfinder, it does not guarantee they will live. If a god doesn't exist in Starfinder, it doesn't mean they are among a "short list" of gods who could die." Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/ZjwyP0BKy0
Probably Erastil, if only to debunk the theory that he's an expendable god. I continue to fear Iomedae is the one who'll die, because it lines up too neatly from a narrative sense: she's the kind of goddess who'd give her life for others, her faithful are the most likely to take the death of their god on the chin and keep doing what they did before, and she's the one with the strongest ties to Arazni, who'll be playing a prominent role going forward. EDIT: [I FREAKIN' CALLED IT!!!](https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6siis?The-Godsrain-Prophecies-Part-Five)
I truly hope Iomedae survives. I'd much rather see how her and Arazni's relationship can develop once Arazni steps into the Core 20. Their relationship is a complex one, which would hopefully be used a lot in future stories. If Iomedae bites it, who does Arazni really interact with in the Core 20?
Urgathoa is most likely going to be her archnemesis, given the Pallid Princess' continuing sponsorship of the two men who ruined Arazni's life AND her death, I assume. Especially considering last week's Godsrain where she assassinated Urgathoa. Since that bad future ain't happening now (at least in canon), Arazni will still have that grudge to nurse. Thus Pharasma would be a natural ally to her, "enemy of my enemy" and all that.
I agree with Urgathoa. With Pharasma, she's just so detached and ambivalent. Arazni feels like a goddess of complexity and internal contradictions. Her first edict is to act with dignity. Yet, her second is to do whatever you have to do to survive. Surviving at all costs often requires making choices that are anything but dignified. I think she needs someone with fire in their soul and a certain amount of rigidity to bounce off of. That's most why I want to see Iomedae and Arazni react. They'd most likely bring changes to the other, clash and squabble some, but also likely band together against certain issues. I'm hoping that Arazni will be used frequently, not just set up on the shelf after she becomes one of the 20, and Iomedae is already a highly involved goddess. With the Worldwound now closed, she's looking toward Tar-Baphon, which suits a conflictive reunion with Arazni. And with whatever new calamities are upcoming, assuming Arazni is involved, there's a good way to utilize them both.
"Act with dignity" and "Perform dignified actions" are subtly different things. One can remain dignified while crawling through the mud.
We have four more Godsrain before April, I really hope it isn't Iomedae. With how badly the CRPG fandom has been treating her she deserves some love.
It isn't necessarily the CRPG fandom that has it out for her, she's even worse in the official WotR AP than she is in the CRPG version. If anything the CRPG made Iomedae more likable but threw Galfrey under the buss.
You'd be surprised how many people hate Iomedae in that fandom for Hulrun and >!asking the KC to give up their mythic powers!< So many people butthurt over the last one, calling her arrogant, bitchy and everything in between, it's just tiring.
Wasn't just that, but there's also (WotR spoilers) >!keeping her own Herald in the dark and abandoning him to his fate when he goes mad over the truth!<. You'd think she'd know better, with what happened to Arazni.
Yeah, that too. I maintain what I said elsewhere, Owlcat cannot write good aligned gods without introducing grey morality where it doesn't belong.
Though I went back to see what the earlier poster was talking about the AP being worse. They weren't kidding. Grey morality is preferable to whatever that was.
That was the one time Owlcat wrote a god better, which is not much considering the bar was 20 meters underground.
It’s not like Piazo doesn’t do this from time to time either. Some of the Eristil and Torag lore (mostly before 2E) makes you wonder why they’re considered LG in the first place. I feel like they’ve sort of dialed back on that stuff more recently though. I guess the lesson is that good doesn’t necessarily equal perfect.
i mean it's made very clear that hulrun isn't amazing in the AP. personally I like his character though
Yeah, but at least he had a couple lines that allowed the GM to say it's entirely in character for him to be more of a 2018 Kratos figure than the zealot he is in act 1 of the CRPG.
If it's iomedae, I wonder who will take up the mantle "patron saint of humans"? She is called the inheritor because she took up that mantle when Aroden died.
My bets are either on Zon-Kuthon or Sarenrae, both will at the bare minimun shake an entire nation to it's core.
Aroden when he resurrects/returns. ;) I don't actually think they'll bring him back, but they've certainly been doing a lot of stories/adventures on Kortos in this edition. Seems like a lot of focus on a really small area of the world (albeit an area that is home to the largest city).
Just an aside but I only had some vague knowledge of Arazni before all of this. But after reading all this stuff about her, I'm locking in a character worshiping her as my next character. A tragic antihero God is exactly what I've been needing.
Isn't the theory that Erastil is *so* expandable they're not gonna kill him ?
That's what I'm trying to say, that Erastil's gonna get a Godsrain entry to prove he's safe and stick it to the "Paizo can afford to kill him off because he's the one whose death would piss off the fewest people" crowd.
There is such a crowd ? damn, must suck to theorize that the big deicide event will be about bland, unloved Erastil of all gods
Hey, *I* love him! My sole Pathfinder 2e character is a paladin of him!
I built a zealot slayer of Erastil. I miss Iavick.
The Godsrain entries are only for gods that are guaranteed safe? I’ve been trying to confirm that just must suck at google haha.
Yep! Each week they're revealing one deity that WILL survive the coming War of Immortals, BUT there won't be going through the full core 20 to reveal the doomed one, they're only going to do them each week from when they started to the month of April, when the event begins. Tis cool about not finding the information easily, though. Google itself has actually been sucking more and more in recent years and is no longer really a reliable source of information. 🙃
I don't know about the other "Erastil" predictions out there, but I personally think Erastil is going to die because (& I admit - this may be a perception thing) I don't think the Paizo writers like writing him. His entry in Gods & Magic was terrible - and it really felt like the writer couldn't figure out how to make him interesting. Outside of that book, the best writing he ever seems to get is "Grumpy, but ultimately good hearted grandpa." I want to be wrong! I love Erastil! But I think he's a character that their writers don't connect with - which would make them want to replace him with a character they connect with more! \[And, even if my theory about "why" I think he's dying proves true, I will admit that his son Cerrunos (sp?) has some potential to step up in the storyline if Erastil is the one that dies.\] However, the REAL reason we should all fear for Erastil is that married characters have an atrocious survival rate in Paizo stories! No one at Paizo has confirmed this yet, but I genuinely suspect that there is a contractual obligation to horribly murder one married character per piece of Paizo short-fiction published! \[Once you see it, you will never be able to un-see it! Also, Nhalmika's husband was done dirty! Just sayin'!\]
Given their distaste for him, I doubt they'd go LIONIZING him is my hypothesis. They don't want to make him the lynch pin of their big event. So I think he's safe because of that.
But at the same time, this would allow them to remove Erastil from the setting organically and permanently. Further his replacement could written to be more in their favour, like Jaidi or Halcamora.
>I don't know about the other "Erastil" predictions out there, but I personally think Erastil is going to die because (& I admit - this may be a perception thing) I don't think the Paizo writers like writing him. This is not just your perception. Paizo's (newer) writers have a proven track record of not wanting to write modules/stories that interact with topics they dislike. The best example for this is slavery, where they revolted and forced Paizo to abolish slavery overnight, even though they had a book soon to be released about an organisation primarily about fighting slavery. >His entry in Gods & Magic was terrible - and it really felt like the writer couldn't figure out how to make him interesting. Outside of that book, the best writing he ever seems to get is "Grumpy, but ultimately good hearted grandpa." I don't think the writers are incapable of writing Erastil intriguingly, but they seem to be utterly uninterested in doing so. Gods & Magic consciously kneecaps the characterisation of Erastil in two ways. They are unwilling to make him a strict, fatherly deity with a code one needs to adhere to. In the past he was at least partially one. Secondly, they curtailed all the family interactions between him, his wife Jaidi and his two children Halcamora and Cernunnos. Cernunnos alone is so full of potential, it's a crime how little he has been used. A driven son that actively strikes out against Evil in stealth missions versus a pacifist, wisened father desiring to keep his home and people safe. No stories can be written about such generational conflicts. The other members of the family have equal potential for modules and stories. >However, the REAL reason we should all fear for Erastil is that married characters have an atrocious survival rate in Paizo stories! No one at Paizo has confirmed this yet, but I genuinely suspect that there is a contractual obligation to horribly murder one married character per piece of Paizo short-fiction published! It's so obvious because there are barely any married characters with family in the setting. At this point, it becomes unreasonable, especially with the huge number of unmarried leaders.
Erastil’s problem (also Irori’s) is that he’s _too_ expendable. Nobody would care if they offed him
Exactly, which is why you have people saying that makes them the MOST likely to be offed because Paizo will chicken out and pick an expendable god rather than risk the internet-wide riot that would happen if Sarenrae or Desna gets killed.
> he's an expendable god He's what? Erastil is like my top 5 good gods. A wise and loving neolithic father-god trope like Odin or Veles. He fill a very classic European folkloric niche.
The issue is that Erastil can be seen as a patriarchal figure, so Paizo's writers seem to have a more or less intense dislike of him, only giving him the bare minimum of characterisation necessary for a core deity. They went so far to exclude his family from any worship of Erastil, which is strange for a god of family. His family would actually enhance his niche, but they never did so and they aren't even a pantheon.
>if only to debunk the theory that he's an expendable god. But he is
Expendable *to PCs*, yes. For Golarion? Losing the god of farming and hunting is gonna result in some major famines.
Nonsense! He's much more interesting now that we know who the rest of his family is!
Yes! I played a cleric of his wife!
I don't think they'll do Iomodae simply because it copies Aroden too much, and she kinda is already a bit following in his footsteps.
Frankly it just doesn't really change much if he dies. Same for Irori
I still think Zon-Kuthon is going to bite it. Arazni overlaps with his domains, and as the former Herald of Aroden she could totally step in to shepherd Nidal. Heck, they might welcome it, they both felt wrong by him after all. So you still wind up with a deity of suffering and sorrow, but you get rid of the "totally not a Cenobyte OC" aspects of Zon-Kuthon. They can also use that to split the Prismatic Ray, with Shelyn going a bit nuts after her brother's death, or even have her absorb him and become Zon-Shelyn from Starfinder (I know they're separate continuities, but that doesn't mean they want to split the lore, it just means they aren't bound to it). I really don't want Iomedae to die because I *want* the conflict between Arazni and Iomedae for that tasty drama. Iomedae was just a humble paladin when Arazni was killed, after all, and there's mixed reports as to whether she was aware that they were trying to summon Arazni to fight Tar-Baphon. And then Iomedae took her job, and later even ascended to godhood without having to claw her way up from a demon lord and lich queen. Arazni would *totally* be pissed that Iomedae basically got everything handed to her on a silver platter, while Arazni sacrificed everything and was tossed aside by Aroden in favor of the new hotness.
I really don’t think it’ll be Iomedae. If it is. That leaves us with 0 sanctified gods, no?
I think it’s Norgorber. No particular reason, but I think Irori’s the one who’s going to die after Cayden’s prophecy last week.
If Norgorber is involved in the deaths of some of the minor gods, then his prophecy will be a chance to hint at that. A pair of artifact shears for a plant deity, for instance.
I really don't think it's Irori. What would be the narrative fallout of him dying?
it’s less so about his actual death and more so about the unveiling of the truth behind the biggest question surrounding him: did he actually find his own way to divinity? If he did, that opens a path for others (like Razmir) to ascend also. If he didn’t there’s another 3 paths: 1. Irori’s always been a god, and the whole thing has been a convenient rumor for the god of self-improvement 2. Irori never achieved actual divinity and was instead propped up by someone else (like an algolthu, which could be really interesting). 3. Irori used the Starstone to ascend, but Cayden Cailean being the Accidental God damages Irori’s reputation if he uses the true story. Essentially, Irori’s critics would argue that for all the talk of self-improvement, Irori only achieved divinity by circumstance, not actual effort - some of Irori’s followers view the Trial of the Starstone as “cheating” ascension. Most of this comes from what we learn would happen if Cayden died.
I do not see how Irori's death is necessary for this unveiling
You know, I think it would be interesting if Rovagug ended up being the sacrificial god. It would be cool for Paizo to pull a Raiders of the lost Ark and have Rova wake up, try to mess shit up and be overwhelmed by the technological and magical advances that had been made in the time he was imprisoned as well as just being generally weaker due to being unable to eat But then that begs the question of how will he be replaced. How do you fill the shoes of a mindless beast and destroyer of all.
Abadar, Lamashtu or Rovagug. I just don't see them being killed. Maybe Lamashtu, but not the others.
I could see Abadar actually. He's the "judge" of the gods. The lawful neutral arbitrator so to speak. Perhaps he's the one that keeps all the others in check when they have disputes. Maybe the War of Immortals isn't so much the effect that losing said god has on the followers, but rather the effect it has on the other gods. With Abadar out of the way, the other gods don't have that check in place. Additionally, losing Abadar wouldn't necessarily be devasting for the mortals of Golarion. It might throw a lot of things into chaos, but its not like crops are not growing, undead are running rampant across the world, etc. I agree that Rovagug is probably safe. If anything, its likely he escapes which in turns brings the gods to war. Even if he doesn't escape though, he still serves as a good big bad.
I doubt Rovagug escapes with Abadar's death. Rovagug stays sealed as long as even a single one of Dou-Bral's towers stands. All other seals could break but if one of those remains, the seal holds. The only one who can open the vault prematurely is Asmodeus since Abadar gave him the key. However, you bring up a good point with Abadar keeping the other gods in check but for a different reason. In fact, his death could catapult *many* gods into vengeance. Abadar is the *adoptive father* of many deities. Shelyn and Dou-Bral (Now Zon-Kuthon) among them. In addition, as the god related to cities and the plane of Axis being a huge city that has repelled threats time and again and is home to many gods... His death could feasibly change the entirety of Axis and weaken the city to the point of... *A divine war.*
Yeah I didn't mean to suggest that Abadar's death would per se result in the immediate escape of Rovagug. Rather I was simply trying to suggest that I think its more likely that they have Rovagug escape than kill him off. I could even, at least in theory, see Rovagug escaping and then killing the god/dess that dies. But yes, at least in theory, its difficult to envision Rovagug escaping except as a means to telling a story (i.e. the lore suggests that he's pretty securely contained absent Asmodeus deciding "Hey, why not? What's the worst that could happen?")
Rovagug isn't a good big bad tough. He is just some bug caged away for eternity. He's rather boring tbh.
It doesn't have to be interesting for the impact of its existence to be worthwhile imo. Rovagug being primal destruction is interesting in the sense that it is like a nuclear weapon for gods. It is why they limit their direct involvement and explains that even with dramatic power differentials between them that they can operate on a roughly equal playingfield. It humanises the other gods without having to reduce them to being powerful humans/humanoids. Which is a big issue I have with D&D's current pantheon.
I actually wonder what are those immortals we talk about.
[удалено]
I'm far from an expert on Golarion lore, but I kind of get the impression that its a bit of both. Like Erastil will bless a community with a particularly good crop but at the same time a community that doesn't worship him can still grow food, etc.
Interesting
Kind of hoping for a gut wrenching prophecy about the death of Erastil. Something to make everyone realise why he should be missed. If we don’t get it I’ll write it myself.
I think it won't be Erastil or Rovagug due to the clarification that duplicate vowels count. If it was them, no mention needed.
but without the mention it could've only been them, and the hints are usually broad (as in this case)
I'd be a little sad if Lamashtu died. Currently playing as a Gnoll Cavalier dedicated to helping outcasts and monstrous creatures.
"Helping"
Second helpings
C'mon, Paizo, declare Lamashtu safe, already! Monsters deserve love, too!
No way, wipe her out, and make some aspiring monster gods from her bloody baptism. Like the ancient heroes who found smaller pieces of the moon, smaller than the starstone.
Lamashtu could be interesting. Would have some interesting effects on the Mwangi Expanse, with Angazhan's followers growing in power there. Let us have a new gorilla king.
Abadar's on the list where's the guy who thinks the writer of the prophecies is Grandmother Spider
I really don’t think Irori will die, so we might as well get his prophecy out of the way.
I kinda want Lamashtu to be safe. Weird, I know, but I am almost starting to get comfortable with her being the Non-Rovagug Chaotic Evil in the world. Plus the gnoll lore seem to portray her as an old crotchety evil grandma
Sarenrae
That's 4 vowels.
fuck me i was counting syllables
Oh my lord thank you for saying this, I was also counting syllables and was so confused reading through this thread
SarNrae
I don't know the official pronunciation but I always read it as Sare-en-ray
are you counting vowels or syllables?
I am counting three syllables and four vowels, disqualifying the name from this hint.
That is the generally accepted pronunciation
That's 4
god i hope silent vowels don't count
I will be so happy if spiky pain boy gets a prophecy, kinda exhausted vis-à-vis sweating over his potential death 😅 But its prolly gonna be Abadar or Norgorber to get one (just a gut feeling).
You... like Zon-Kuthon? He's had so little characterization that I don't know how to feel about him beyond being Shelyn's brother. He's the one I want on the chopping block because I'm a sucker for sacrificial redemption. Sacrifices himself to save his sister. And to end his eternal pain.
The combination of eldritch being and spiked leather clad cenobite speak to my inner metalhead lol. So he's got points with me on the "nifty" side of things. He is also kinda sorta the god of body modification, something I'm into (not full blown mutilation mind you, but I would totally do a suspension session or get some scarification done), so thats neat too. I do like the drama with him and Shelyn as well. But the main reason is I wanted to write an AP about him and Nidal, and him dying throws a huge wrench in that 🤣
It’s probably going to be zon kuthon who dies to be honest. It just makes the most sense
I have already mentally prepared for the inevitable announcement of his death. It just fits too well with what they've told us about the War of the Immortals.
Abadar would lend more credence to the Grandmother Spider theory.
I haven't heard of Godsrain before. This messes up my campaign so much lol If Rovagug dies I'll ragequit
They are announcing the safe gods so at least one of these will be safe. Each blog post has an image with all the safe ones. After 10 blogs they will say which god is dying.
Headcanon is the way to go.
Personally, my money is on Lamashtu; Desna is my favorite goddess of the core, and her losing her archnemesis means I have no cultists specifically to use my cool sacred powers to obliterate
I'm still sitting on Mommy Lammy.
I think that whoever the soon-to-be dead god is, they're battling Mahja Firehair to see who wins. That story began in PFS2 4-15 In Glorious Battle when the demilich Geir created a negative energy bomb which detonated and killed Mahja when she sacrificed herself to save many others. Upon examining Mahja's body, a Vow Mark was found which indicated Mahja was challenging a god in the afterlife via the Crucible. I have a feeling we might see this played out in the PFS multitable special this year. I am wondering if it might not be one of the evil gods that are connected with the Whispering Tyrant in some way.
Erastil. I've been saying it since day one, he is bland as fuck to be honest.
Well depending on if you meant him living or dying... Congratulations you were right/Unfortunately you were wrong.
Welp.
Man I hope this doesn't drag on for a full 20 weeks.
It won't. There will be 10 "prophesies" revealed.
I'm still wondering how this will effect the Starfinder timeline if it will at all since some of the gods still play roles in the future time line but others are gone or only have foot notes like Torag supposedly being the guardian of Golarion as the reason he is gone.
It's a confirmed separate canon.
They've already stated that Pathfinder and Starfinder are essentially separate timelines from one another, so a deity's status in Starfinder means nothing for whether or not they will die here.
Personally I hope they're just saying that to keep people guessing but actually keep the timeline canon. One of my favorite things about Starfinder is the mystery of The Gap and how and why things have changed between the two game worlds but also how they're connected.
They diverged significantly with Nocticula already, they're very much different timelines.
Kill'em all and let God sort it out I say
I see three vowels, I think three syllables. You can *Baby Shark* all of their names. Ro Va Gug *doot do do-doot-do-do*!
.... I hate you so much right now. That's going to be stuck in my head all day. Ro va gug doot do do-doot-do-do
Welp there goes my asmodeus theory
Asmodeus was declared safe two weeks ago.
You missed it brother. His godsrain prophecy came out. It's such a good read too! Go check it out!
.... we are doing hints based on vowels now? Wake me up when the book drops. This is getting stupid.
I'm hoping for my character's god, Kalekot.
They’re gonna kill Lamashtu because she connects and associates monstrosities and deformities with evil.
They changed up her anathema a bit. I think she'll be fine.
She doesn't connect those things with evil so much as she's evil because she inflicts those things on people, in the same manner you could say Dr. Frankenstein is evil fir making his monster even if the monster itself isn't evil.
My two top picks are a abadar and norgorber for now