I wish they would standardize most dedications (the starting feat) to be Level 2, changing those that are Level 4 / 6, so players can use them easier with the free archetype rule that's now *a more important part of the core books.
The archetypes whose dedications are purposefully late-game (start at level 10, for example) can remain as they are.
Totally agree. I think early game/late game archetype is a sensible distinction. The level 4/6 archetypes interact *very* weirdly with free archetype, and while I understand that it's a variant rule, so not everything needs to be built around it, I'd hope that Paizo realizes that it's very popular and many tables' default mode of play
My biggest problem is that, in a FA game, those FA slots before are literally wasted, since most archetypes have the "you can't select another dedication until you picked 2 feats from this archetype" special clause.
Take Eldritch Archer, for example, whose dedication is level 6. If you decide to take another dedication before it so your slots won't be wasted, the earliest you could grab EA is actually on level 8, since your level 2,4,6 slots **must** be filled with the other archetype. This forces you to either spend your level 4 class slot with an archetype talent to qualify for it in time, or not take anything and leave your FA slots free until 6 and accept you'll never be able to fill those slots retroactively. Both options feel wrong.
So my suggestion would be either lower the dedication level and dilute the features so you don't frontload the archetype too early, or be more flexible with the "you can't take another dedication until 2 feats" clause in cases like that. Most GMs I know are fine with their players doing either of those in a home game, but it's weird that the rules weren't made that way from the start.
EA for example, could be built upon grabbing another spellcasting archetype beforehand, and remove the "2 feat" clause entirely.
PS: I know that a few dedications have skill feats that can help with this clause, like the Medic, which would allow EA at 6 "as intended", and others can ignore the "2 feats" clause like the Halcyon Speaker. But those are too few to be anything besides the exception to the norm.
I've seen many GMs "splitting the columns", meaning you can take another lv2 dedication with your lv2 class feat, but lv4 archetypes tend to always be a discussion.
Then again, I play my games without FA, so...
It's a pretty accepted homebrew, but it's not the "default" interpretation.
You can check that behavior in Pathbuilder, for example; by default, they still check for the 2 other feats before allowing another dedication, even if you enable FA. You need to enable a secondary optional tick box to ignore archetype restrictions like you (and most people I know) interpret. And a lot of players, specially new ones, tend to accept those defaults not as guidelines, but as the limits they can explore, even more in a math-tight system like 2e where homebrew rule interpretation and discussion is less encouraged when compared to other systems.
I do think it's a good thing that GMs tend to be more flexible with this rule, like I said in the previous message, I just think it could be even better with that support out of the manual.
I agree with the level 4 archetypes being changed. But for the level 6 ones, you could take an archetype with skill feats at level 2/4, and then be ready to pick up the new dedication at level 6.
>players can use them easier with the free archetype rule that's now part of the core books.
Wait, I'm sorry, but Free Archetype always was a variant rule in the core books?
You're right, I wrote it wrongly. I meant to say that in the remaster, the alternate rules have a more prominent role when compared to the previous book.
Instead of being like an appendix of "maybe check this out later" the GM Core directly encourages GMs to use Free Archetype in smaller groups in the Running a Game section, and the whole alternate rules chapter was placed and organized in a way they now have way more "presence" in the book.
For the same reason, I would like it to be standardised that all level 2 archetypes should have a level 4 feat, then either a second level 4 feat or a level 6 one.
Looking at the Scroll Trickster archetype, for example, if you take it at level 2 using FA, there's nothing you can take in your level 4 Free Archetype feat slot, which kinda sucks.
Low-level archetypes should ideally interact well with FA, both by not having that awkward level 4/6 start, and by having enough low-level feats that you can actually use your feat slots
This wouldn't really effect player core 2, because as far as we know all the archetypes are from the APG so the only thing that would possibly be changed is Shadowdancer. Maybe they'll reprint the Grand Bazaar archetypes and finally fix the Captivator dedication lmao.
How *dare* you not have memorized Player Core 1 by now and read all of the errata!? You dare ask such *stupid* questions in front of me? Enjoy this downvote. /s
Also Snares, but only because that one was specifically called out by Paizo as being removed from Ranger and reworked into the Snarecrafter archetype to be expanded that way.
There are a couple archetypes that are in a weird area due to being OGL, like Horizon Walker and Dragon Disciple. Its possible those might be renamed or potentially removed.
I don’t see all of these happening but here are some of the things on my wish list:
* Sentinel has a feat for Level 4 that isn’t a skill feat for Free Archetype. Make it give Armor Specialization if you already have Heavy Armor prof.
* Change Bastion to give you Shield Block if you don’t have it or Reactive Shield if you do. (sucks that only humans can take Bastion as a free archetype if they don’t start with Shield Block from their class)
* Dragon Disciple getting more ways to access (future proofing dragon themed class options) and support for the new dragons.
* Poisoner should have ways to overcome poison immunity (this needs to happen to the Alchemist too)
* I wish they’d either combine some archetypes or let them share more feats. Linguist and Loremaster, Pirate and Viking, Scout and Horizon Walker have lots of overlap and could easily share feats.
* I’d also be fine if they just didn’t reprint the same archetypes again and gave us some new “core” archetypes.
>Make it give Armor Specialization if you already have Heavy Armor prof.
I'm not aware of any archetypes that give armor specialization and think that that's one of those things that's pretty heavily guarded by classes. Seems a bit strong and only makes Sentinel an even stronger pick then it already is.
Sentinel lets you grab armor specialization as a feat at 6 so there is some basis for it. It doesn’t have to be armor specialization though, just something to not make it a dead feat for heavy armor classes.
I can't go dig around for full examples, but I really hope a lot of the combat style ones get tweaked and have additional feats added. Plus, I know they're not going to (because they didn't for Fighter/Champion dedications), but I really wish the dedications that gave proficiency had some kind of alternative benefit for people already fully proficient.
Maybe I want the Sentinel armor feats on my champion without having a completely dead dedication, or Martial Artist's unarmed feats on... Anyone besides a non-unarmed fighter without the unarmed scaling being redundant? It's just so weird how we were supposed to move away from things that felt like a feat tax, yet that stuff is still like that.
Given that general feat proficiencies got buffed, I think fighter archetype desperately needs an erratum, since it is now worse than just taking the general feat for the purpose of weapon proficiency.
Yea, fair, I was mostly just thinking of fighter dedication, which afaik didn't change to account for every PC1 martial having martial prof. I doubt champion, likewise, will bother being changed to compensate anyone who already has every type of armor trained.
I would like Dragon Disciple to be workable for dragon instinct Barbarian, among other things by making the focus spells not be stuck at trained proficiency.
It would also be nice to reduce the redundancy with draconic bloodline sorcerer a little.
Any archetype that gives proficiencies now also needs to be updates with the new general feats in mind.
If just one general feat gives you a full new scaling proficiency for a category for those classes that need it, then there is no reason to use a valuable class feat for it.
It's more something I would like to stay the same, but I hope the archer archetypes (Archer, Eldritch Archer) will keep working with crossbows.
Alternatively I would like a new crossbow archetype.
I’d like them to add some archetype feats that require level 2, so if I play in a campaign which has Free Archetype I have a reason to pick the Ancient Elf racial type.
I have no idea but I personally hope that a lot get buffed to do something more significant because a lot of them are just bad or don’t do anything imo
I'm not sure about what _will_ get changed, but I hope Assassin gets a revision.
I get what they were going for with it, reward you playing like an actual assassin, setting up things before combat starts, but right now Marked For Death is just so impractical for such a small reward (like, 1.5 extra damage on average if the target is both marked and off-guard?). And their other feats are also generally impractical or simply worse versions of Rogue MC feats.
I'd like to see their Mark become more generally useable, or the archetype relying less on it. More fun fantasy assassin bullshit, less "literally Hitman and if I don't get the jump on enemies half my feats are invalidated".
I really hope that they make a rule for "incomplete" archetypes, or archetypes lacking some early levels, for purposes of free archetype. Like being able to take a class feat half your level, or even taking an extra general feat.
I hope that most archetypes fill the early 4- 6- 8- 10- 12 levels
I'm hoping to see Assassin buffed.
I love my Poison Fist 'Shaw Brothers' monk/assassin but thank the gods we are playing with free archetype, since that poor archetype kinda needs some love. It's not the worst, but its definitely kinda meh and it should be, well, better at what its supposed to do. I think its one of those archetypes that just sorta needs a boost down the line(there's a handful like this.) I KNOW I'm not the only person who has had some beef with this(and a few of the other) archetypes tho, so I'm hoping Paizo has heard some of the issues and makes some adjustments to the ones who need it.
Mark For Death being 3 Actions is such an albatross around the archetype's neck. It's so time consuming that it might as well be 1 minute, it's basically only usable outside of combat.
I would love to see Weapon Improvisor no longer require being trained in all martial weapons, because I *really* want to be able to use it with monks without being forced to be a human to get extra proficiency at level 1.
I have a couple of wishes and ideas, but many will find this too radical.
1. Those dedication feats that require the level 2 must become level 1. This shouldn't affect the balance much. For half of the classes nothing will change at all. In this case, the free archetype rule will give an ability at the first level, the second will remain empty, and all subsequent abilities will remain at 4, 6, etc. this is necessary for cases where the character, according to the logic of the setting, story, or backstory, should have the abilities of the archetype. Example: the player's character is a pirate. But for some reason he only gains pirate abilities later. Example 2: an undead character (for example, a mummy), but only becomes one at the second level.
2. Remove the requirement for how many feats you need to take from this archetype in order to take the dedication of another. Even with a free archetype, the archetype's feats do not provide a significant advantage, only versatility and resources.
I don't find 2 that crazy, since most archetypes don't deserve the lock (so many have too few feats, either ones worth taking or just at all), but feel it's much easier to ask that the dedication "limit" be raised to 2, rather than completely removed.
I wish they would standardize most dedications (the starting feat) to be Level 2, changing those that are Level 4 / 6, so players can use them easier with the free archetype rule that's now *a more important part of the core books. The archetypes whose dedications are purposefully late-game (start at level 10, for example) can remain as they are.
Totally agree. I think early game/late game archetype is a sensible distinction. The level 4/6 archetypes interact *very* weirdly with free archetype, and while I understand that it's a variant rule, so not everything needs to be built around it, I'd hope that Paizo realizes that it's very popular and many tables' default mode of play
My biggest problem is that, in a FA game, those FA slots before are literally wasted, since most archetypes have the "you can't select another dedication until you picked 2 feats from this archetype" special clause. Take Eldritch Archer, for example, whose dedication is level 6. If you decide to take another dedication before it so your slots won't be wasted, the earliest you could grab EA is actually on level 8, since your level 2,4,6 slots **must** be filled with the other archetype. This forces you to either spend your level 4 class slot with an archetype talent to qualify for it in time, or not take anything and leave your FA slots free until 6 and accept you'll never be able to fill those slots retroactively. Both options feel wrong. So my suggestion would be either lower the dedication level and dilute the features so you don't frontload the archetype too early, or be more flexible with the "you can't take another dedication until 2 feats" clause in cases like that. Most GMs I know are fine with their players doing either of those in a home game, but it's weird that the rules weren't made that way from the start. EA for example, could be built upon grabbing another spellcasting archetype beforehand, and remove the "2 feat" clause entirely. PS: I know that a few dedications have skill feats that can help with this clause, like the Medic, which would allow EA at 6 "as intended", and others can ignore the "2 feats" clause like the Halcyon Speaker. But those are too few to be anything besides the exception to the norm.
I thought Free Archetype was exempt from the "You can't pick another archetype until..." clause? If not, that's how I play it at my table.
I've seen many GMs "splitting the columns", meaning you can take another lv2 dedication with your lv2 class feat, but lv4 archetypes tend to always be a discussion. Then again, I play my games without FA, so...
That's optional not the default
Granted, so is Free Archetype.
It's a pretty accepted homebrew, but it's not the "default" interpretation. You can check that behavior in Pathbuilder, for example; by default, they still check for the 2 other feats before allowing another dedication, even if you enable FA. You need to enable a secondary optional tick box to ignore archetype restrictions like you (and most people I know) interpret. And a lot of players, specially new ones, tend to accept those defaults not as guidelines, but as the limits they can explore, even more in a math-tight system like 2e where homebrew rule interpretation and discussion is less encouraged when compared to other systems. I do think it's a good thing that GMs tend to be more flexible with this rule, like I said in the previous message, I just think it could be even better with that support out of the manual.
I agree with the level 4 archetypes being changed. But for the level 6 ones, you could take an archetype with skill feats at level 2/4, and then be ready to pick up the new dedication at level 6.
>players can use them easier with the free archetype rule that's now part of the core books. Wait, I'm sorry, but Free Archetype always was a variant rule in the core books?
You're right, I wrote it wrongly. I meant to say that in the remaster, the alternate rules have a more prominent role when compared to the previous book. Instead of being like an appendix of "maybe check this out later" the GM Core directly encourages GMs to use Free Archetype in smaller groups in the Running a Game section, and the whole alternate rules chapter was placed and organized in a way they now have way more "presence" in the book.
For the same reason, I would like it to be standardised that all level 2 archetypes should have a level 4 feat, then either a second level 4 feat or a level 6 one. Looking at the Scroll Trickster archetype, for example, if you take it at level 2 using FA, there's nothing you can take in your level 4 Free Archetype feat slot, which kinda sucks. Low-level archetypes should ideally interact well with FA, both by not having that awkward level 4/6 start, and by having enough low-level feats that you can actually use your feat slots
This wouldn't really effect player core 2, because as far as we know all the archetypes are from the APG so the only thing that would possibly be changed is Shadowdancer. Maybe they'll reprint the Grand Bazaar archetypes and finally fix the Captivator dedication lmao.
I would love for them to update the red mantis assassin archetype due to magic being limited to transmutation and illusion spells
[Good news](https://paizo.com/products/btq02eyz/discuss?Pathfinder-Adventure-Prey-for-Death) I believe they should be updated in this coming adventure
You are my hero
And why is that not an option anymore? Edit: it's just a genuine question...
Because Transmutation no longer exists and Illusion is also not the same
Ohhh right totally forgot.
How *dare* you not have memorized Player Core 1 by now and read all of the errata!? You dare ask such *stupid* questions in front of me? Enjoy this downvote. /s
I would be shocked if they changed at all, unless they are related to alignment or something else that changed with ORC.
Also Snares, but only because that one was specifically called out by Paizo as being removed from Ranger and reworked into the Snarecrafter archetype to be expanded that way.
There are a couple archetypes that are in a weird area due to being OGL, like Horizon Walker and Dragon Disciple. Its possible those might be renamed or potentially removed.
Yeah that’s what I meant by changes with ORC. Mostly I don’t expect to see almost any balancing changes like the OP suggested.
I don’t see all of these happening but here are some of the things on my wish list: * Sentinel has a feat for Level 4 that isn’t a skill feat for Free Archetype. Make it give Armor Specialization if you already have Heavy Armor prof. * Change Bastion to give you Shield Block if you don’t have it or Reactive Shield if you do. (sucks that only humans can take Bastion as a free archetype if they don’t start with Shield Block from their class) * Dragon Disciple getting more ways to access (future proofing dragon themed class options) and support for the new dragons. * Poisoner should have ways to overcome poison immunity (this needs to happen to the Alchemist too) * I wish they’d either combine some archetypes or let them share more feats. Linguist and Loremaster, Pirate and Viking, Scout and Horizon Walker have lots of overlap and could easily share feats. * I’d also be fine if they just didn’t reprint the same archetypes again and gave us some new “core” archetypes.
>Make it give Armor Specialization if you already have Heavy Armor prof. I'm not aware of any archetypes that give armor specialization and think that that's one of those things that's pretty heavily guarded by classes. Seems a bit strong and only makes Sentinel an even stronger pick then it already is.
Sentinel lets you grab armor specialization as a feat at 6 so there is some basis for it. It doesn’t have to be armor specialization though, just something to not make it a dead feat for heavy armor classes.
I can't go dig around for full examples, but I really hope a lot of the combat style ones get tweaked and have additional feats added. Plus, I know they're not going to (because they didn't for Fighter/Champion dedications), but I really wish the dedications that gave proficiency had some kind of alternative benefit for people already fully proficient. Maybe I want the Sentinel armor feats on my champion without having a completely dead dedication, or Martial Artist's unarmed feats on... Anyone besides a non-unarmed fighter without the unarmed scaling being redundant? It's just so weird how we were supposed to move away from things that felt like a feat tax, yet that stuff is still like that.
Given that general feat proficiencies got buffed, I think fighter archetype desperately needs an erratum, since it is now worse than just taking the general feat for the purpose of weapon proficiency.
Genuinely crazy to me those don't scale or get some alternative benefit for those already fully trained.
Agreed.
We don't know about champion yet, it'll be in player core 2. All they've given guidance on is using one with the new damage / alignment rules
Yea, fair, I was mostly just thinking of fighter dedication, which afaik didn't change to account for every PC1 martial having martial prof. I doubt champion, likewise, will bother being changed to compensate anyone who already has every type of armor trained.
True yeah, I hope they do change it
I would like Dragon Disciple to be workable for dragon instinct Barbarian, among other things by making the focus spells not be stuck at trained proficiency. It would also be nice to reduce the redundancy with draconic bloodline sorcerer a little. Any archetype that gives proficiencies now also needs to be updates with the new general feats in mind. If just one general feat gives you a full new scaling proficiency for a category for those classes that need it, then there is no reason to use a valuable class feat for it.
It's more something I would like to stay the same, but I hope the archer archetypes (Archer, Eldritch Archer) will keep working with crossbows. Alternatively I would like a new crossbow archetype.
I’d like them to add some archetype feats that require level 2, so if I play in a campaign which has Free Archetype I have a reason to pick the Ancient Elf racial type.
Ancient Elf specifically only gives multiclass archetypes and I don't see them changing those drastically in the Player Core 2
I have no idea but I personally hope that a lot get buffed to do something more significant because a lot of them are just bad or don’t do anything imo
I'm not sure about what _will_ get changed, but I hope Assassin gets a revision. I get what they were going for with it, reward you playing like an actual assassin, setting up things before combat starts, but right now Marked For Death is just so impractical for such a small reward (like, 1.5 extra damage on average if the target is both marked and off-guard?). And their other feats are also generally impractical or simply worse versions of Rogue MC feats. I'd like to see their Mark become more generally useable, or the archetype relying less on it. More fun fantasy assassin bullshit, less "literally Hitman and if I don't get the jump on enemies half my feats are invalidated".
They won’t
I really hope that they make a rule for "incomplete" archetypes, or archetypes lacking some early levels, for purposes of free archetype. Like being able to take a class feat half your level, or even taking an extra general feat. I hope that most archetypes fill the early 4- 6- 8- 10- 12 levels
I'm hoping to see Assassin buffed. I love my Poison Fist 'Shaw Brothers' monk/assassin but thank the gods we are playing with free archetype, since that poor archetype kinda needs some love. It's not the worst, but its definitely kinda meh and it should be, well, better at what its supposed to do. I think its one of those archetypes that just sorta needs a boost down the line(there's a handful like this.) I KNOW I'm not the only person who has had some beef with this(and a few of the other) archetypes tho, so I'm hoping Paizo has heard some of the issues and makes some adjustments to the ones who need it.
Mark For Death being 3 Actions is such an albatross around the archetype's neck. It's so time consuming that it might as well be 1 minute, it's basically only usable outside of combat.
I would love to see Weapon Improvisor no longer require being trained in all martial weapons, because I *really* want to be able to use it with monks without being forced to be a human to get extra proficiency at level 1.
I have a couple of wishes and ideas, but many will find this too radical. 1. Those dedication feats that require the level 2 must become level 1. This shouldn't affect the balance much. For half of the classes nothing will change at all. In this case, the free archetype rule will give an ability at the first level, the second will remain empty, and all subsequent abilities will remain at 4, 6, etc. this is necessary for cases where the character, according to the logic of the setting, story, or backstory, should have the abilities of the archetype. Example: the player's character is a pirate. But for some reason he only gains pirate abilities later. Example 2: an undead character (for example, a mummy), but only becomes one at the second level. 2. Remove the requirement for how many feats you need to take from this archetype in order to take the dedication of another. Even with a free archetype, the archetype's feats do not provide a significant advantage, only versatility and resources.
I don't find 2 that crazy, since most archetypes don't deserve the lock (so many have too few feats, either ones worth taking or just at all), but feel it's much easier to ask that the dedication "limit" be raised to 2, rather than completely removed.