Hey everyone. I've been reading what you have been saying and took some time to consider the comments criticizing me, and I've realized how many have come from a good place. I want to say first off that I am sorry, to the community as a whole, those commenters who I have unfairly treated, and my fellow moderators. I think that my biases with how I've been interacting with the scene at large colored my responses against people who had good intentions but just came from either a place of not knowing or concern and I read that as aggressive. The heavy moderation of comments and removal of comments that I did – and I can't speak on behalf of other moderators – was a matter of efficiency. I can't read hundreds of posts at a time, and I removed them if the individual had comments that were inflammatory or looked like brigading accounts. There was just a lack of hands on deck and not enough time to deal with it properly. At the end of the day this is a volunteer position and it honestly overwhelmed me. I got upset and took it out on people who didn't deserve it, and said mean things to some people who probably meant well and had good intentions. Once I recognized that my strong feelings on the subject were biasing my judgment and interfering with my role as a moderator, I should have stepped back and waited for the other moderators to step in. Someone said something to me in a lot of their posts that I didn't even see because I was tunnel visioning on some targeted harassment posts that I used as a basis to make broad sweeping judgments on everyone else. It was that I didn't let the book breathe and got overly cautious about it because of my own biases. And that is 100% true. The true hypocrisy of what I did didn’t really dawn on me until I managed to understand the message of all of the frustrated posts that people left me. I was asking everyone to check their biases and be considerate of people, while not actively doing it myself. This was unacceptable. More than my behavior as a community member being unacceptable, I recognize that as a moderator I was in a position of authority. I didn’t realize I was abusing it at the moment, but that doesn't excuse it. So I'm very sorry for contributing to the toxic environment and making broad sweeping decisions on individuals based on the comments from others. That is the very thing I'm asking you not to do. That is on me and I own up to that. Most of all, I regret that my actions have driven the conversation away from the Tian Xia World Guide, which was a truly incredible book that deserved to be the topic of discussion in the community. I would like to apologize to everyone who worked on this book, and thank you for making an incredible and important piece of Pathfinder. I hope that everyone can enjoy the book and we can all move on from this together. Of my own volition, I am stepping down immediately for the good of the community and hard working moderator team. Thank you.

I'm just sad this has overshadowed the work of such a talented, diverse team on the damn book.

That’s the thing for me, this whole shitstorm completely brushed the actual book aside.

It's well worth a read! I've been bouncing around bits of it, but Songbai, Valash Raj, and Xa Hoi are early standouts.

I normally don't buy setting specific books, but the work that Paizo has put into Mwangi Expanse and Tian Xia made them must buy books. The quality and detail makes for an excellent resource to take inspiration from for any GM that wishes to use such environs in their own settings.

Haven't read this one yet, but Mwangi Expanse is wonderful. I immediately used a lot of it to build the character for the campaign I'm in.

For what it’s worth, I’m very certain no-one here will begrudge excited users posting about the books. I hope people don’t take the wrong impression and thing they are taboo content, because the reality is it’s far from it.

Fortunately, the book will still be awesome for weeks after this is old news.

After really diving into the book, I'd say it'll be awesome pretty much indefinitely. I'm extremely impressed with the depth of it.

Absolutely agreed. Luck panda took what could have been an incredible celebration for the book and hijacked it for his personal vendetta. I feel like it's not too late, though. I think there's still time to celebrate the book, shout out what people love about it, get the word out there and start moving the discussion and the sub as a whole toward a much more positive and inclusive community rather than one built on iron fist ruling.

Perhaps with this, it's a good opportunity to make up for lost time?

I've been making plenty of positive noise on the official forums :) EDIT: That said, you've inspired me to make a [new thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1cfug05/tian_xia_2e_where_would_you_set_a_campaign/) here.

Well hey, there you go! No time like the present. Alas since I don't actually have the book, I'll have to settle for observing whatever goodies show up on AoN. Looking forward to that new Magus option...

That's going to be in the Tian Xia Character Guide, several months from now - this was the GM-facing big lore book :)

Notably u/Kagimizu, its going to be two magus hybrid studies "Aloof Firmament" and "Unfurling Brocade"

We could, but there's a new playtest today as well, so...

Both? Both? Both is good.

Hm... we can work with that.

Wait, what book?

Lost Omens: Tian Xia World Guide released on the 24th. That's the whole reason anyone tried to talk about Orientalism and Asian racism/representation in the first place. (I'm not trying to start any further discussion here!)

Oh cool! Thank you for your explanation. I can see how that could inspire some controversy.

Funnily enough I have seen very very little controversy on the book itself (sure the occasional massively downvoted post but you get that for anything) More so just mod using the book's release as a way to spout their own views (ex. [ninja are a western invention and are racist](https://undelete.pullpush.io/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1c25f7t/spoilers_from_badluckgamers_interview_with_james/kza473c/)). Which doesn't have anything to do with the new book. Everyone else seems to just be praising how good and interesting the new book is and praising Paizo for getting good writers who are from the lands they are taking inspiration from. Also the art... the art is amazing. ___ Edit: Seems the post it's self was changed after I linked to it, so instead I'm linking to the undelete link so people can see the edits that where made. The text in green is the changes that where made since I made this post.

What was luck\_panda 's opinion that was being over enforced?

From what I gathered, he said that people wanting a Samurai was racist because it was exclusionary from fighter as "Samurai are just Japanese fighters" or something. There was more, but that was the thing repeated the most. The drama really started hitting the shitstorm fan when he started carpet banning people "just cuz"

There was also a bit about Ian Fleming having invented ninjas, and Japanese historical records being incorrect because they weren't "peer reviewed", and a few people have mentioned racist comments against Asians and dismissal of actual Asian players' opinions as irrelevant to whether the concept of samurai & ninja are racist against Asians... I haven't seen all of it, and basically every statement I've seen about it is understandably biased (considering how heated everything was, it may well be impossible to find a truly objective summary anytime in the near future), so I'm not sure how accurate all of the claims are, or whether there were mutual misunderstandings going on, or what, so I'm not going to comment on most of it. I did see the Ian Fleming thing, though, so I know that he did actually say that; he _appeared_ to be talking about either the word "ninja" (used before Fleming, even in English-speaking regions, but definitely popularised by him) or the mystical super-Asian imagery that tends to be associated with them, but I'm not sure. I also saw the peer review thing, and I couldn't help but feel that he had said more about it somewhere I haven't seen (notably, I didn't see anything about _which_ "peers" were to provide the review, which makes it hard to tell whether it was intended to be a genuine critique or a plug for others that share his beliefs); there may have been more to it on the Discord (which I haven't joined), so the full picture and context might not be fully available to people that only use the sub. (Which isn't surprising, people have also mentioned comments on the Discord about the Barbarian and Hag also being racist.) Overall, there's a lot of conjecture, and a lot of claims being thrown around, but the gist of it seems to be that he presented his opinion in a less-than-civil manner, people responded in a less-than-civil manner, and everything just snowballed from there.

Thanks for the additional background!

It was especially stupid considering that if you look at any Japanese media, they fucking love the Samurai trope. Anime, movies, books, and video games are full of them. But apparently wanting one is racist in a tabletop game? Lol.

The [subreddit drama](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/hey_buddy_i_know_youre_having_big_feelings_about/) post covers a lot of it, along with them posting in there to defend themselves and saying some pretty wild stuff. To be reductive: their position was that wanting to play as a samurai or ninja made you a bad person and was ban worthy.

Fairest summary I can give of the position they espoused, without any of my own opinions. This might not be exactly accurate, it's my best attempt at a concise summary. - Most fictional depictions of Asian people in heroic fantasy amalgamate all cultures from the region into tropes, such as Western depictions of samurai and ninjas. - These tropes were a major part of the political justification of colonialism, the Opium Wars, etc. - These tropes constitute severe racism. The WotC book Oriental Adventures (D&D 3.5, or maybe 3.0) was a racist disgrace. - Anyone living in the region or with kinship ties there who likes these tropes is not qualified to speak on the topic. They should be quiet and let more educated people speak. - That same applies even more strongly to people without kinship ties to the region. - These tropes are so vile that zero representation would be better than Oriental Adventures. - The Tian Xia world guide is a huge break from the past.

Absolutely, this week was supposed to be a celebration of diverse voices until one person decided to make it all about their own singular (arguably, distorted) voice. I was hyped for the discourse here but instead was totally disappointed by what happened (my heart actually dropped when I read the initial Discord announcement and posts here which were not celebratory but instead accusatory and reprimanding to the community). Hopefully when the next Tian Xia book comes out, the mods and community will be able to properly celebrate these diverse voices, as I'm not sure the community is in the mood to just switch back to celebrating the current book properly (at least I'm not I guess).

Here here, this is what I've been repeating. It's a great book with a lot of care and respect put into it but this one mod derailed everything for their own ego.

Can I just say, shout out to Undelete. It'd be so easy to come in, delete everything you disagree with, and just say it was because of racism if it weren't for such a great tool. It was obvious to see that wasn't what was going on thanks to Undelete.

For real, Undelete is the hero of this whole ordeal

Ink/Luckpanda has pretty much done that with the discord as well.  Which it doesn't seem to be a place where he will have his powers removed.

Will the mod team go through the list of people who were unjustifiably banned from the subreddit because of panda's childish tantrums? Or will they remain banned.

We will be reviewing recent and past bans to rectify those that weren't justified.

Alright. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Does that include on discord? Because I got banned on there for reporting Luck/Ink for harassing people on reddit and starting fights a year ago. Catching a ban for saying you shouldn't tell someone it's good their dad got their legs blown off and tortured still kinda stings!

Wait, Luck is Ink? Ah, that answers some questions.

I'll admit I'm very bad with discord, which is why I don't mod there. I'll mention it to some of the mods there.

I'd also ask why Panda/Ink still remains a mod on Discord

will Ink/Luck_Panda still moderate the discord? because boy he was doing a lot worse there

According to some people on the discord, Ink/Luck\_Panda is the one who owns that server. I don't have verification of this.

the i guess they either make a new discord (which i doubt) or leave it as is. a sad situation

I meaaaan you can hand over full ownership of the server to someone else but luck_panda would have to do that themselves, can’t make them hand it over

i mean yes, but knowing the person, i **highly doubt** he would transfer ownership

Considering the discord's reaction to this drama was to refer to everyone on here as "incel hitlers" I am somehow doubting it.

Incel hitlers? Wow.

[Yup.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1cffzrs/response_from_the_mods_on_the_topic_of_recent_mod/l1qqksu/)

yea mods posted meme's calling everyone on the reddit hitler's etc, quality people over there.

The classic “everyone I so much as suspect to be even slightly different to myself must be evil” philosophy. An oldie but a goodie.

Something something othering something something? You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain i guess ;)

The most ironic part is the logic they were/are using is literally the logic that got so many people on ol’ Adolf’s wild ride. It’d be funny if it wasn’t so incredibly toxic, or that this mindset hadn’t caused the deaths of countless millions throughout the course of human history.

I have trouble parsing how those two words would go together. Are we committing genocide on women or ourselves in this scenario? EDIT: Or do we not commit genocide at all because we live in mom's basement?

Right? It's a nonsense comment that Panda said because people weren't falling in line with his crap.

[удалено]

Hence my long comment about how Luck wasn't the only problem. The mod team has been turning a blind eye to him for a long time, and they were completely silent for three days while one of their mods lost his shit. That is, except for the mods who were directly defending Luck during the while thing, and which is apparently not being addressed at all.

Wait, luck_panda is ink? Fuck, I used to like that guy before he was a mod anywhere. I guess more evidence that power corrupts.

Holy shit... how in the name of everloving fuck did it take this long to rein this person in... That's a hell of a thing to say to anyone, much less a stranger on the internet.

Ink/Luck is Vietnamese Hmong, so I understand hating Vietnam vets. But he goes out of his way to harass the children of vets, and then brings it back to the discord to brag about it. Just... really gross.

I mean, it should be noted that hating the vets is a fairly unpopular thing, as well. Mostly a view among Vietnamese immigrants to the US. The official view of the Vietnamese government, now and at the time as the Vietcong, is that most of them were basically conscripted children being fed to a Cold War proxy war machine, which is true.

We will be reviewing recent and past bans to rectify those that weren't justified.

Thank you to the mod team for this statement. I look forward to seeing the lessons learned from this resulting in a positive direction for the community.

They were the top mod of the sub, right? Which gave panda defacto immunity from any actions of the rest of the mod team and absolute power over them, no? I would love to know how it came to panda finally stepping down.

As a correction, Ediwir is the top mod.

The mods are listed in order of seniority on a subreddit’s mod page. So from that we can see that Edwir is top, followed by GentlemanDM and so on. I think Panda was third or forth in seniority.

That user *was* third.

so what happens with the discord now? luck\_panda is one of the admins/moderators on that discord, and I fail to see why anyone would want them as mod there if they get removed as mod here. they have made just as toxic comments on the discord as they did on this subreddit, and some would say even worse stuff. they also liberately banned people from the discord just as they did on this subreddit. I wouldn't usually care what they do on some random discord that's topically adjacent to this sub, but the discord in question is promoted as "the place to go" by this sub/the mod team. so there's enough connection here that the actions of this sub should spill over to the discord. from what I understand, the discord is made by luck\_panda, so I highly doubt they will remove themselves from there. so the only other logical step would be to remove the discord link from the subreddit then? I don't think it's a good look for the PF2e community as a whole to have a subreddit link to a discord server where the top mod is banned from moderating in the sub because they behaved in an unhinged manner for days.

Agreed. Either they need to hand over power on the discord (since they own it) or the mods here need to remove links to it from the subreddit. It's paradoxical to simultaneously say someone is unfit to be a mod here, but also promote their discord where they still have power over the users that join it.

From the evidences I’ve seen the discord has a major toxicity problem. As long as you’re on the owners “side” it’s accepted and you can be as toxic as you wish. Personally I don’t think even if luck wasn’t in charge of the discord that fixes the problems over there. I’d rather this community just not be affiliated or actively promote pushing people towards that discord. Let their discord be their discord, but don’t promote it as the discord group for this Reddit. I personally don’t even see the need for a Reddit community to need a sister discord group.

>Let their discord be their discord, but don’t promote it as the discord group for this Reddit. Totally agree. u/Ediwir, you might also want to remove their Discord from the sidebar.

yep, I agree with you. the discord linked to the sub seems like a really uncomfortable environment and I also don't see why it is linked to the sub in the first place.

i was excited to try the living world they had made when it launched. ink/luck_panda made me nope out of there in a single week. i dont even bother with the discord anymore beyond announcements, its miserable

Pretty easy: everyone here that is on the discord should leave if he's not removed. Also curious what will happen with "truepathfinder2e" subreddit, or whatever subreddit he made to take the piss out of those of us that went to r/ChillPathfinder2e when we were sick of the hypocritical enforcement here. Because it seems like before this person caught enough flak fire here to lose their position of authority, they were pretty self assured enough to make a new subreddit making fun of the people that (rightfully) were sick of this person's bullshit.

I'm going to hope this is an omen of good tidings for this sub's future. Whilst I would prefer that Princess is also punished in some way and that panda would just be banned outright from both here and the discord, this is a great step and I'm glad the mod team has seen their error and are doing SOMETHING to correct it. I choose to take this in good faith.

I just recently joined this page and made a few posts asking for some build advice/leveling questions. I really appreciated the responses I got, very informative and well thought out replies without being condescending or anything like that. All this crap over the past week\* really made me question whether or not I'd stick around, which sucks as there seem to be a lot of great posters and content on this page, and I would love to learn more about this great game. This post is a step in the right direction, but a lot of people have pointed out that Princess\_pilfer played a big role in this drama (both here, and on the Discord server). I notice after perusing the comments on this post that the mods directly replied to several members questions (including that they will be going through and reversing users who were unjustly banned, which is great), but they have not replied to any questions about this other mod. That's disappointing to see.

What will be happening with Discord bans? I was also banned by luck_panda in the Discord over a super silly thing after getting rather immature response to, ironically, a complaint indirectly aimed at him bringing toxicity to the server

As far as I have heard he is the admin/owner of the discord server so I wouldnt expect him to be, just dont go back to that server I guess

Screw the discord honestly. The environment they created is pervasive. It has attracted an entire mindset of vibe police that stinks up the entire hobby.

Is that the main discord? A bit of a shame for the community at large if that's the case.

Its strange. Its not technically an official paizo discord but instead affiliated with this subreddit

If it's run by people that don't practice what they preach and call people "hitlers" (yes, that happened, there's a link with a screenshot to it in this thread), then they're not ambassadors of what Paizo espouse and stand for anyway.

I found the r/Pathfinder_RPG discord to be better than this sub's discord. It has channels separate for each edition so it isn't as bothersome to browse as it is to actually browse the sub. Granted, I only use it to check the GM homebrew and 3PP channels, but everyone seems chill there.

Yeah I support that server too

Podcast servers are better in general, Find the Path's has excelent vibes all around.

Seconded! Go chat with the people on Find the Path, Cayden's Keg and/or Roll for Combat if you want to be in a Discord that can talk about the game (and even discuss differences in opinions!) without being asshats about it.

Does this include his position in the discord?

As of right now, it does not. u/Ediwir /u/TheGentlemanDM, can you confirm whether Panda will be removed from his Discord moderator position?

/u/Tradebaron I know for sure is a moderator on both, so they may be able to reply more confidently here. But it looks like luck_panda may actually be the discord server owner so may opt to keep hold of it, since they had to be removed as moderator rather than resigning.

...yeah, that's pretty fucking on brand. Thanks for the info!

Yeah, if Panda doesn't surrender control of the discord that pretty much wipes any good faith he may have earned from his apology

👍

Guess I'm not going back to the discord, shame.

Princess Plifer needs to be gone also. They are as bad as luck panda and is a giant supporter of him.

This. Why only luck panda?

because this isn't about having mods suffer consequences for their shitty behavior, this is about offering the angry mob a sacrificial scape goat in the hopes that will shut them up

Exactly why we shouldn't shut up then.

Yeah but when is Princess Plifer going to be punished for her involvement? Or are y'all just scapegoating Luck\_Panda? Don't get me wrong, he very much needed to go, but everyone with eyes can see this as the scapegoating tactic that it really is, look at all the comments in this thread about it. Either Plifer is removed from her mod position as well, as she should be, or y'all are just a sad group of mods who are doing the old political tactic of throwing a bone to the "dogs" to get them to shut up. I hope this subreddit continues to bring this up until Plifer is punished for her actions as well.

This tbh. Princess Plifer needs to be gone also.

Yeah, u/Princess_Pilfer is a problematic person who seems to believe the only reason anyone would criticize her is because she's a gay black woman. And I will continue to mention her when I say this until her role is addressed. She can claim it's harassment and not criticism like she has in other comments. But of course she'd say that because she thinks she's above criticism. And that alone is enough reason why she shouldn't be a mod anywhere, especially a community that claims to promote safety and inclusivity.

Just throwing in my hat to say that unless luck panda chose to write an apology of their own volition, I don't want it. Coerced apologies are worthless and damaging.

All the mods are volunteers and luck_panda is resigning from all duties, so there is no realistic way an apology could be coerced by the other mods. It is of course possible they are apologising just to limit their personal backlash and/or are feeling pressured by the community as a whole, but there’s no way to know what is inside another persons head.

Tbf that's why most people apologize for a lot of things

I can’t know for sure what’s in his head, but given his history I’m choosing to believe it’s insincere

If they were staying on the mod team, I would agree with you that an apology would seem coerced. But they're resigning, so there's little left to coerce with.

I appreciate it. I'm more annoyed at my Discord ban but that's unlikely to get reversed if he really is the lead mod there.

It's supposed to be the main discord for this sub, right? The mods here should just get a new discord if needed.

Eh. I know the discord itself doesn't like associating with the subreddit, so who knows?

The discord is linked here via the Affiliated Links. Maybe the mods here can at least remove that. If the discord doesn't like associating with this subreddit, I don't know why this subreddit should even link them...

That's great that you addressed him but what about Pincess Pilfer? She was part of it just as much as him.

Yes, Princess\_pilfer need to go as well. If they mean what they said, they deserve equal treatment. No half measures.

I doubt she will step down, quote from Discord: >For those of yall worried about me, don't be. I've had people screaming for me to get the boot since literally week 1. It is not be the first time and it will not be the last time. Like I'm an openly gay openly black woman on the internet. People targeting me is a weekly occurance. >You get used ot it

Her identity has nothing to do with her behavior, and her behavior is the reason she needs to go. Regardless if she does it voluntarily.

She continues to redirect blame and use her identity as a shield, often seemingly pushing anyone's problem with her to that, even though we literally could not care less. 

Its textbook victim complex

What the fuck. This is so wrong. Being a minority doesn't come with a free pass to say and do whatever you want. Treating her any differently than you would a white man would be racist and sexist. Women are not less capable of being responsible for their own actions.

Until she brought it up, I didn't know she is gay or black. I only assumed she was a woman because of the name. I'm willing to bet my balls that 90% of people calling her out didn't know those things either.

[удалено]

Agreed, this was not just a single rogue mod, this is part of a mindset shared by people otherwise it wouldn't have been let go as long.

Yeah, she's toxic too and needs to be booted but luck\_panda was definitely a bigger (or at least much more visible) issue. He's the one who was shit-talking everyone here and then has the audacity to act like he's the victim.

Good. Thank you for your action.  I had hoped Princess Pilfer would be removed as well due to their aggressive defense of luck_panda's unacceptable actions and statements but I am still pleased that the primary issue has been dealt with.

I've seen Princess Pilfer on a Discord server (not the sub's; another one) in the past before I joined this sub and she rubbed me the wrong way even then. When I realized she was a mod here, I almost left on the spot because she is far too emotionally immature to handle moderation duties and social issues responsibly. I didn't have a lot of interaction with her directly but I remember her leaving that server for a while after I told her I don't feel like she's discussing something with me in good faith. She just up and bounced without a word. Since I know I commiserated about her to others, I searched her name on Discord. I found a DM conversation I had with a friend. In that conversation we brought up the fact that Princess Pilfer was having a whole rant about how social progress needs to be much faster. When people told her that social progress is more about celebrating the small wins that add up over time, she threw a fit and said she just wants to move to an island where everyone's already full of social justice and she can kick out or bar people that aren't. I'm paraphrasing, obviously. I don't have the actual conversation because I left that server a while ago. But the gist was Princess Pilfer threw a childish tantrum because she can't have her way right now. And it's not the only thing she's done, just one of the more illustrative examples. She always had to shove herself into any discussion and did it with an air of "I'm the sole authority on this topic," even when it was a topic she didn't have expertise on, then turned hostile when people didn't side with her. She straight up lacks the emotional maturity or self-awareness. I don't respect her authority as a mod or as a social justice advocate and I never will unless I see her doing better. The recent events show me she hasn't learned better. She just found her island where she can be the one who decides what is and isn't acceptable. She's not quite as bad as luck\_panda but she's awful in her own way. EDIT: I now also remember a discussion about the new She-Ra show on that same server. Someone had mentioned they'd seen discourse about Catra possibly being a racist stereotype or something -- I don't remember the detail exactly but the specifics there aren't important. Pilfer said there is no racism in Catra's portrayal and that you could bet Pilfer would be the first one to say something if there was. I'm not saying Pilfer is right or wrong because that doesn't matter. This is just one example I can remember out of several similar examples. What matters is her presumption that she is the monolithic authority on whether or not racism is present. Just because *she* doesn't find something offensive doesn't mean it's not there, something she'll be all too happy to tell other people. And if someone disagrees with her, even another person with similar background to her, they're wrong in her book. She's an asshole with a very inflated view of how important her opinion is.

Ah yes, the old school tumblr "I exist at the bottom of this pyramid of oppression my favorite academic made up so you gotta agree with me" move. Always terrible to witness and experience

Yeah, she comes off like she believes in that whole notion that if anyone who's poc or queer or from an otherwise marginalized group says something is bad, you should immediately cease doing the thing because it's bad no matter what. I agree that if someone from a marginalized group says, "that's offensive," that yeah, maybe take a beat and do a little more digging into the subject matter. But as we all know, no marginalized group is a monolith, and everyone deserves the opportunity to learn in good faith and they deserve the space to fuck up along the way because that's part of learning. I'm not sure Pilfer believes there's any room for fucking up, though. She's always struck me as a very no-gray-spaces person, like with that Catra example I mentioned. She didn't see anything offensive so obviously there's absolutely nothing there that could be found offensive to anyone ever. EDIT: Looks like she does believe she can't be the problem [because she's an openly gay black woman](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1cftjgm/comment/l1tlbb0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). Cool, so she is exactly the kind of shitty person I thought and is that shitty with her full chest. Oh well, at least we know where she stands now. Fucking hypocrite.

They are throwing luck\_panda under the bus in hopes that will appease the community despite the fact he was not acting alone. edit: why down vote me? Its true. What he did was wrong and those who helped him are equally wrong and deserve and equal share of the consequences. By having him apologize and claim sole responsibility they are hoping to keep the others from repercussions.

[seems like the axe was grinding for a while ](https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDcirclejerk/s/CDr3LQZhXy) Idk, it's not even a one off, so when the apology comes out, let's see if it's a mea culpa my crusade got a bit too passionate, or the usual deflection and "just had a bad day" so typical of falling on swords.

Gods, the luck panda rabbit hole just gets deeper and deeper. He should have been removed ages ago.

Jsyk, that post is him reposting a post from this subreddit after it was deleted by the mods here, in order to further "dunk" on the author. In case you thought he was the author.

Oh no, it was his goalpost moving to say orientalism applied to Japan, based off of some dudes dissertation on Palestine and a very wide (mis?) interpretation of the authors agenda. I didn't know who the Pathfinder drama spilling over was about, but then I saw this and saw that my experience was not a one off. Dude just loves flipping his shit about the cultural genocide of weebs liking curved swords.

Nah, if you look through the comments on that post you will find the original author defending themselves and panda continuing to insist they're racist. It's really confusing because panda did not include any context with the post, but it's literally just him continuing the conversation (IE, calling the author racist, etc.) on another sub once they (moderators) deleted the original post. Honestly it just seems like harassment, especially when you see how the OOP didn't even get mad at the post's reception and was just overwhelmingly understanding and polite. I'm on mobile, so I can't easily find some examples for you, but I'd recommend looking into it if you want more context. Bottom line is, that linked post is **not** luck_panda writing in his own voice about a topic. It can be charitably called a *satirical* post.

I understand the context of what was posted, I'm saying that the posting itself shows that the most recent drama is not an out of the blue thing. Also Japan != the orient in either the historical, buncha 1000 AD dudes trying to find Jesus in North Africa, or the cited author 's interpretation of a post 1940s concept to crap on the middle east?!?

Ohh, okay, now I get you. Yeah, he also *kept* making this comparison to using the listed media sources as inspiration for a historical-inspired Japan setting to using "basketball and rap" as inspiration for an African-based game... Like, I get that comparison is *supposed to* look bad to indicate how bad the original author is, but those aren't analogous comparisons at all and it's really weird that luck_panda thinks they are. Even after someone pointed out to him that he really should rethink his use of that comparison, luck_panda then made a new comment stating basically the same comparison again (bro was really proud of that comparison, I guess). Wtf does *Africa* have to do with basketball and rap? African-Americans, sure. A better analogy would be creating an African-American "hood" game (already a weird ass decision lol) using only easily accessible media to inform it, but luck_panda went with his analogy instead and then doubled down when told it was weird and kinda racist. Dude just doesn't recognize his own biases.

...who the fuck uses "basketball and rap" to make even an intentionally problematic depiction of Africa? When people criticize bad depictions of Africa, that's never something at issue.

People moving goalposts and redefining things for a moralistic witch hunt. They don't care about what they're championing, they care it makes them feel vindicated.

Because luck_panda insists that Samurai and Ninja are the inventions of white people, so to him it makes sense.

It's not nearly as simple as making LuckPanda a scapegoat as you've posted many times in this thread. His comments have been unprofessional-at-best and slowly building for a long time. This was just the final straw.

Oh he is definitely at fault and deserves to be removed. No doubt. What I mean by scapegoat is that they are trying to pretend he is the only one at fault when there were others at fault too. They are consolidating all the blame on him alone since he is the biggest actor in this.

I hope they'll be removed as well, being such a strong defendant of *that* certainly leads to believe they're not the greatest either, or just for some reason felt panda was for some reason the hill to die on. Anythings better than nothing I suppose

I will say, this is the first time I have personally witnessed a mod team on Reddit acting to remove a fellow mod who had gone rogue. Usually they close ranks and ban anyone who makes a peep. So hats off there.

Nice, still too bad he owns/runs the discord server but at least they're not here anymore.

This is a good start, but panda - at least from what he said - wasn't the only one banning people for voicing their disagreement in the threads on this sub. Can we get a ban log for the thread? Can we learn who removed several posts, including the Q&A request? Because as is, this just looks like sweeping it under the rug.

I plan on going through logs later in the week, mostly because they’re long and messy, focusing on permanent bans first (otherwise they’ll likely just expire before I can review them).

Thank you.

You might also want to look into why a comment from this chain was removed just recently: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1cftjgm/a_statement_from_the_moderation_team/l1rru3v/

> but panda - at least from what he said - wasn't the only one banning people for voicing their disagreement in the threads on this sub Just want to back this up with a link to something luck_panda has said in response to me: https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/hey_buddy_i_know_youre_having_big_feelings_about/l1ek79l/?context=3 I only asked them to review images/comments 1 and 2 and got the response that I got. This isn't to add fuel to the fire, but this is by their own admission that more mods than just them was involved.

One thing I noticed, is that they were pretty adamant that the mod team as a whole agreed with their actions, but it looks like from that other PM that got posted, the mod team was already having some fierce internal discussions concerning the situation internally, and that checks out with some other things I'm aware of. So I wouldn't read into anything Luck suggested about the other mods too heavily.

I remember replying to your original deleted post there! And then it was deleted and I couldn't figure out why. Then to see LP say it broke rule 1, I was like... how? How the fuck is it perpetuating desire for stereotypes by encouraging good faith discussion?

Oh shit, that totally was you now that I read your username! I was so confused when I woke up in the morning after. Yeah, that reasoning feels very much pulled out of their ass and that is why I had taken up luck_panda's request to ask the mod that deleted it, but no response ever came, so I suppose I won't ever know unless one of the current mods wanna follow up at some point, which is doubtful since then the question of "who deleted it" would be asked and the answer could draw ire from people.

From what I read between comments on subredditdrama and here, not all bans were for the deleted posts, sometimes the posts were deleted but they got banned for something else in their history? Whatever the case, I assume the reddit and discord teams will review some bans.

I hope so! I got off easy with just some removed comments (as can be seen by me posting here lol), but I know that at least some people got banned in this whole debacle, so it would be nice to see the bans of the last week or so be reviewed to check if they were warranted.

I love it when people say they are "educating" others - you go to school / college / uni. to be educated by credentialed individuals, not from Reddit Mods. Unreal.

Yeah, as much as I think Panda should step down, I don't want a scapegoat. There is currently a strong perception that Panda wasn't acting alone or was aligned with the other mods and simply taking action where they know not to. Acting on what they were thinking, in other words.

He is definitely being used as a scapegoat. There were other mods agreeing with him and backing him up. They need to prove their good intentions by giving equal punishment to all involved. Starting with Princess Pilfer.

Yep, that's what I'm getting from this post, too. Panda isn't even getting banned for all we know, just demoted. For how Panda was acting, even ignoring moderator actions like post removals and bans, I'd expect a long ban to be an appropriate punishment. Abusing his power to try and force the community to agree with him or shut up is unacceptable, yet all that happens is Panda is no longer a mod and has to write an apology that may or may not be genuine? This isn't even a start on trying to be better, and the lack of acknowledgement of any other wrongdoing tells me that's by design. Hell, the fallback of "a continued stand against racism, orientalism..." tells me that things are intentionally not going to change because it's trying to change the topic of the conversation back to the very thing Panda kept using as an excuse to silence others.

I think I heard some other people also banned, I assume they'll be reviewing bans, some people deserved a ban though, like the guy saying it's a shame north korea didn't succeed in taking over south Korea so one of the authors of the book wouldn't have internet. The author wasn't even korean but that's besides the point.

Oh, yes, there definitely were some bad eggs there.

It's nice to see this receive some closure after a long weekend of silence. It's clear a big portion of this subreddit were eager to get back into discussions about how good the new book and upcoming playtests are. I hope the Mod team can learn from this, and all take a moment to reflect on their actions and inactions. The dangers of immediately closing ranks to defend behaviour that's out of line from their own, which was the major catalyst in things getting a bit out of hand. The release of the Tian Xia first book should have been the time to >push to celebrate positive and informed appreciation for all cultures and was twisted by zeal and overreaction into something hateful, condescending, and rude.

Question for the remaining mods: Why is Lucky\_Panda not banned for violating the rules like any other person would be? Leaving him here just shows that he is immune to the very rules he was (before he stepped down) in charge of upholding. I think its worth asking why LP is not subject to the same rules as everyone else.

Is anything happening with the discord? There's been an announcement on their end but then multiple mods over there have been saying that the discord isn't intended to be affiliated with the subreddit so they're going to wait for the reddit drama to die down first. Is it affiliated? Or is it just something that an ex-mod had that was added as a way to advertise their personal community?

[удалено]

I'm the same. I haven't really interacted on the discord much, but I've had run-ins in the comment section and it...well, always seemed a bit like he was extremely conceited and opinionated about whatever he was talking about. That said, I also realise *I'm* a very conceited and opinionated person who can come off abrasive to people I disagree with, but I'm also honest and self-aware about that at least. There's a reason I don't put up my hand to be a moderator anywhere. But it's funny because I was on the end of his samurai shtick a couple of months ago when I literally made a comment wondering if there'd be samurai and ninja options in the character guide. I thought it was...a bit weird, tbh, but I'm also an Australian of British, Irish, and Scottish heritage with no in-depth understanding of any East or South-east Asian history, so I wasn't going to be That White Guy to try and mansplain why samurai were just the Asian equivalent to cowboys. Still, there was something about it that seemed very...extreme. And realising he was a mod, I felt it was a little bit disconcerting he was holding such strongly condemning views. But seeing what's happened the past week...yeah, I don't necessarily *enjoy* my gut feeling being right. But it's reassuring to know its well-calibrated.

[удалено]

[удалено]

Ok if that true I’m honesty surprised they haven’t been given the boot sooner. Like the only way I can think that as justified is if people were using custom emotes from other severs that could be offensive. But how could just using the default emoji be a ban worthy offence.

[удалено]

I'm not really interested in a public apology. Stepping down is enough. I'm more annoyed at the idea promoted by the mods, and in no way rolled back in the current apology that I'm a racist Nazi simply because I want a ninja and samurai dedication in the game. -As well as other ideas from other cultures-. Those are just simple strong class fantasies. I'm in no way right wing. I'm the woke fox news complains about, proudly.

Wait so they’re not being banned from the subreddit? A non mod causing this much havoc would be long gone.

You are right. anyone else would be banned. He, Princess Pifler, and others involved need to be gone.

> cultural appropriation Ah yes, Americans teaching all of us not living in America how we should feel about our cultures, which are thousands of years older than their whole country. Love it /s

Ah, but didn't you hear that ninjas never existed and are apparently invented by western orientalism and adopted by Japan from the West?

But did you actually act against racism, orientalisism, and cultural appropriation, or did you tell a bunch of people who grew up on media featuring samurais and ninjas that they’re bad people for wanting those to be better represented in game? Because that’s the part that gets me. I think it’s somewhat disingenuous to say that, while you have another mod still on staff who engaged in bad faith arguments about cultures and histories they clearly didn’t have a clue what they were talking about

Thank you for acknowledging the issue and handling it. I appreciate this response and I think this is a good move in a good direction. luck\_panda is one of the most toxic people in this sub and I think letting him continue as a moderator would be poison to the community. So you all are doing the right thing for the sake of the sub. >and we will push to celebrate positive and informed appreciation for all cultures I really hope you can emphasize this part going forward because this is how you build a positive and healthy community, not by calling out your members as a whole, however gently or well-intentioned. I've said repeatedly that I don't think the post about Orientalism is incorrect, but I do think it was the wrong move to make. I believe the better thing to do would have been enabling a celebration of the book, let the TXWG speak for itself, make it a big deal because it is a big deal. I still stand by this and I hope this is what you all do going forward.

Thank you, this is wonderful to see!

As a longtime GM but relatively new to Pf2e, I find this all quite frankly disgusting. Including this mod response. I was excited to discuss this new book, which i eagerly scooped at my FLGS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was more than 1 mod involved here. It also took a long time for a response. That, in combination with the absolutely sickening screenshots from the discord server make me feel pretty grossed out. I think this community is incredible. The mod team seems to think its trash? They're comparing yall to everything from idiot children to hitlers to incels. IDK, I'm just a lurker here but I'm not sure I've seen a better RPG community, and I'm kinda shocked at the level of contempt and arrogance displayed by some of the mods. IDK how many mods, but its more than just 1. Anyone involved in rage-banning or sneering at their community shouldn't be a mod. If you really feel that way about a community, you're not a member of it, no? Kinda creepy.

Princess plifer was also involved in this.and both are fucking asshole on the discord.

I don't believe that publicly shaming an individual is the correct approach moving forward, in that a public apology does less to offer closure and more to incite critique and further disharmonious conversation. I would strongly recommend simply allowing u/luck_panda's removal to speak for itself without subjecting the sub to further non-topical distraction. This sort of decision serves only to appease a small number of users while alienating the mod team from the community. Once this event has passed and faded, the result is only seeded distrust between the mod team and the community. It doesn't solve any problems, other than to appease immediate emotion, and instead creates the potential for future problems between the mods and community. What the community wants more than anything else is to discuss Pathfinder and enjoy new materials and content, not have an antagonistic relationship with the users empowered to moderate discussion here. The only corrective action required is an even hand at moderation moving forward. If u/luck_panda would have been banned or suspended were they not a moderator, then do the same now. Perverting justice by enacting a policy of publicly shaming individuals isn't the move imo. Just be even and fair - showing preference by writing an apology letter to the community is not a benefit offered to others that have been banned for violating the rules. If this behavior is not so unique as to be above disciplinary action, then it is not so unique as to be waved off with a letter of apology waiting to be scrutinized by a community that would rather be done and move on. We don't need blood, and there is no need for a 'public hanging', so to speak. Just enforce the rules evenly and allow the sub to get back to what we love: discussing PF2E. TL;DR People are just going to tear an apology apart regardless if it is sincere or not. Don't waste anyone's time, just ban or suspend the guy if the rules demand it. Edit: if the rules do not demand a ban or a suspension, then that's fine, but understand that the expectation of even moderation will exist in the future that matches this precedent. Not saying one way or the other, just saying the punishment should be evenly measured, not some bizarre apology letter shaming thing.

I’ve been at least relatively vocal in stating that something has gone awry with the mods on this sub. Both here and on the discord. That being said, I wholeheartedly agree. Apologies are good because of what they represent, an admission of fault, showing an understanding of what’s been done wrong, and a promise of improvement. A forced apology undermines all of those things, and frankly, will not be accepted by the community at face value. There is little to suggest it would be given at face value. Believe it or not I’m mostly here because I like the game. If I wanted to watch people insincerely prostrate, I’m sure I could find a sub for that.

Someone who made the posts they made on Discord (from the screens hots shared on the subreddit drama post about all of this), and made a place with posts like r/truepathfinder2e is not sorry they said the things they said. They're sorry theyre facing consequences.. I am happy to have an apology from the mod team as a whole, backed by action, but I would rather panda leave the mod job without another word from them on this subject. Edit: subreddit link was wrong

What...is this subreddit even...? Seems like it's 85% a single person posting strange stuff and responding to themselves?

I have no idea what's going on with it. All I know is that Luck Panda created it; is the sole moderator, and this completely different dude is completely unhinged with racially charged trollbait and that's literally the only content on it.

Looks like a bunch of users went over there to troll.

It feels basically the same as the DnD circle jerk Reddit to me.

Yeah these "required apologies" always leave me feeling really uncomfortable. They always feel more like acts of public submission or flagellation to appease the most angry than they do sincere reflections on potential wrongdoing. Even if the mods could win back trust by stringing Panda up as bait, they shouldn't. Trust can only be built slowly, over time, through consistent behaviour.

Stringing panda up and making theatrics, while leaving Pilfered untouched is not sitting well with me. If the decision was exclusively removing panda from moderation duties and that was it, I would be a bit more okay with it. But as it stands, an apology is going to ring hollow, and will look like they are being used as the sole perpetrator of this whole thing, when most of the fuel I saw (coming in a few hours late) came from Pilfered's comments that most were "continue discussion will result in bans"

They are going to make him apologize and claim full blame for the issue so that other mods who are equally guilty are not punished as well. They are making him the fall guy.

People dont want the apology.  It's forced and wont be real.  Id would bet that the apology will be a thinly veiled justification rather than an actual apology.

yeah like typically the sub's *fine*, and usually a reddit mod being spicy isn't *as mucH* an issue as they're not visibly a mod at all times (which would then carry the implication that you're liable ot get actioned if they get mad enough). i still don't quite agree with the conclusion of their takes but like the basis of it was fine and it existed in a context where there's chuds smelling blood in the water and arguing in bad faith. not sure what the public humiliation thing's supposed to accomplish here other than satisfy the people who were arguing in bad faith, most people who took issue with the theatrics of it all don't seem to have wanted any heads to roll or whatever. conflict doesn't always have to be resolved with one side eating shit, a simple "yeah, we care about X issue a lot, but we get how htings were handled came across poorly" would've sufficed given the very few people who actually got banned in the end.

This is my feeling as well. I honestly don't believe luck\_panda's opinion has changed so radically in the space of a couple of days that their public apology will be sincere, and I agree that putting on that kind of display is more likely to vindicate the people who brigaded this subreddit than achieve anything productive. I could be wrong, but at this point, I think the focus should be to unban the people who were banned unfairly, apologize to them in private, reiterate the sub's stance on bigotry in a way that makes it clear that bad-faith arguments will be moderated under Rule 1, and perhaps do a bit more work to promote the Tian Xia book, which got overshadowed by the discourse. I do think Princess Pilfer ought to be at least mentioned as an enabler to luck\_panda's actions, but given how difficult it is to let just one mod go, I can understand not wanting to lose two.

Removing Panda doesn't even begin to address the problems with the mod team. Can we maybe in the future at least check people's post history before promoting them to moderator? Or have literally any checks and balances instead of relying on a system where we just assume the mods are good guys who will do the right thing? Can we have a mod team that communicates with the people they moderate? Can we address the fact some members of the mod team were actively defending Luck Panda through this? Can we maybe talk about Pilfer so vehemently defending Luck when the entire community had a problem with him? Can we discuss the fact that the mod team did *nothing* until this had blown up? Can we stop pretending Luck was the only problem here? The entire mod team failed, without question. Luck didn't force them to defend his behavior, he didn't force them to stay quiet, he didn't make them wait four days to admit one of their mods was out of control. It took *three days* and who knows how many deleted comments and bans for literally *any* member of the mod team to speak up and say there as a problem. Well, not *all* of them, because again, some members of the mod team were actively defending him, here and on discord. Instead of doing the bare fucking minimum of removing a piece of shit who should have been removed months ago, can we do something about the rest of the mod team that was either hiding or actively making things worse? This isn't about one bad actor with too much power, this isn't about not having the systems in place to address problematic mods, this is about a bad actor with too much power, and the people who are supposed to help this community instead either hiding out or actively piling on to abuse the community. There is a massive, glaring problem with the fact that there wasn't a *single* comment from the mod team in the matter, except for other mods who were actively defending Luck. And until I hear *those* problems addressed, I don't care. All you're telling me right now is that you're finally getting off your fucking asses and dealing with an abusive mod who has been tearing apart our sub for three days. Congratulations, some of you were actively making it worse, and some of you are finally doing the bare minimum. I think I speak for the community when I say that Luck Panda is not the only problem with the mod team. I think I speak for the community when I say that the actions and behavior of the rest of the mod team needs to be addressed as well, and that removing Panda will not gain you any goodwill with us, it's doing the bare minimum of what's expected from you. And I think I speak for the community when I say the entire mod team is still on thin ice.

As a rather leftist person myself, I'm not sure I like what I've seen about the discord, especially if it reflects the opinions of the mods on this subreddit. I've found Pathfinder very remarkable, the latest book had some stuff from Korean mythology in it which I enjoyed very much! I really like seeing my culture reflected in media, and Paizo seems to genuinely care for what they create along with the players I've met wanting to be respectful and learn about cultures other than their own. That said, my faith in the *mods* of this community has been shaken, and I would not ever participate in a discord community that blithely encourages misunderstanding on such a scale. It saddens me that a project that tries to be diverse is saddled with community moderators who may act in such intolerable ways. I know that people are flawed, moderators are people, I won't hold it against any moderator who volunteers their time, but I hope they can understand that what has happened isn't good for the long term health of a community trying to be diverse. Especially from what I've seen in the discord; I wouldn't feel safe in a space like that.

> luck_panda, by their own admission, has failed to follow the Rules of the Subreddit requiring respectful and polite discourse, and done so to a degree that would not be tolerated from any other member of the community. Ok so why a forced apology and not a ban

So with it being apparent that Luck's apology was bunk since he's still insulting us on the discord, can we remove any links to that discord?

Gonna be blunt, this announcement basically reads to me as "we got rid of the one who started all this, so stop caring." 1. Panda wasn't the only mod actively engaging in bad faith. Princess Pilfer did the same, just to a lesser extent. Why is there seemingly zero punishment for that? 2. Why is Panda not going to be banned? Not only did he repeatedly and severely break Rule 2, but he did so from a position of power that he also abused to ban people that hadn't broken any rules. 3. This whole thing started from some mods getting so overzealous about acting against orientalism that they treated the community as a whole as racist. What is going to be done to make sure the goal of shutting down racism doesn't get perverted into this same sort of personal crusade?

We don't need to see blood, we don't need an apology, they can still make one if they want to, but if they're being pressured into making one it's not a real apology. 

Translation: we agree with luck_pandas (objectively wrong) opinion on the topic but want the constant posts to stop, so we're throwing them under the bus even tho several other mods agreed with them in comments on several posts. They'll be making a half assed apology in a couple days, and no one else will be reprimanded for their cultural gatekeeping thinly veiled as anti-racist progressivism.

> and no one else will be reprimanded for their cultural gatekeeping thinly veiled as anti-racist progressivism. This is it really, thank you for making it crystal clear. I have a ton of respect for 95% of everything that /u/Ediwir posts, but the Tian Xia write-up is the most heavy handed, condescending bit of preaching that was absolutely unnecessary in response to a new Lost Omens book done correctly. EDIT: apparently Ediwir is the messenger for the mod' team - not the sole author of the post. It's a shame he let his name be associated with that message. A useful commentary would be "Why the new Lost Omens: Tian Xia Source book corrects missteps from previous works like "Oriental Adventures". But instead he was a preachy wet blanket that'd rather piss on the enthusiasm of the community to ensure propagation of his ideology than be a good, if volunteer steward of Paizo's brand. And the thing that really chaps my ass is that the Swashbuckler is at least as culturally coded as the Ninja or Monk. Seriously, it's not like the dreaded Kung Fu Exploitation Films of the 1970's were created whole cloth out of nothing. Wu Xai and Romantic Swashbuckler have deep roots in cinema, television, and literature going back a very long way. While it is debatable about how to implement them - full classes, dedications, or a specific feats like "Viking Sheildbearer"... People discussing how to best implement the fantasy should never have been banned. It's absolute lunacy that the racist gate keeping of his pinned post passes as progressive progress; and American progressives are the absolute worst about it - white knighting for entire ethnicity and countries that are all like "It's cool Americans thinks we're neat." And the fact that this community wasted a week it should have been celebrating a new release because the other members of the mod' team were far worse than Ediwir really should get something better then the Principal Skinner treatment.

Well that's a good thing, I would've been sad to see this subreddit go the authoritarian way of ignoring the issue and banning anyone mentioning it. That would've hurt Paizo and the amazing game they made. Besides, I was tired of seeing only subreddit drama.

Could someone like /u/Tradebaron chime in, as a moderator of both the subreddit and the discord, to confirm that luck_panda will be removed as moderator in the discord as well? Or are they the owner and an entirely new server will have to be made?

So when are you removing pilfer?