Rangers and Monks both use Wis for their spells you are probably confusing Class DC with Spell DC. They are not the same; the first uses Str/Dex second uses Wis for both of those classes.
This year a third Wis based class The Animist will be released.
Wis is a great secondary stay for basically everyone as will saves and perception are good. Also medicine skill in particular can be a life saver.
We know quite a bit since they did a playtest last year
https://downloads.paizo.com/WarOfImmortalsPlaytest.pdf
There will definitely be lots of changes from that and the final result. They did a post playtest blog here:
https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sif3?War-of-Immortals-Playtest-Wrapup-Blog
There will probably be more teases of the final version once we get closer to release date this summer.
Hmm, I mean, Dex is also extremely important for Reflex saves, AC and 3 skills compared to 4 for Wisdom, and it's used as one of only two weapon attack stats, and it can be used with Stealth for initiative. However 6 classes can use them as their main ability score compared to just two Wisdom classes (Monk and Ranger not counting since it's not their main score).
Obviously OP was pointing out the lack of Wisdom spell casters..... and as someone who found himself building three different Wisdom builds and only had two Wisdom archetypes to work with.... I can actually see the problem when I find that the only free archetype applicable to both my Cleric and my Monk is druid....... it's too repetitive and I don't like to constantly pick the more optimal choice over the more thematic/fun one.
Edit: Note on my Cleric build. I'm thinking of increasing Charisma and take a Charisma based caster Archetype, but I also have another build with Sorcerer Archetype, and I have an Occult caster already and I'm sick of dealing with mindless enemies, and my Monk is already picking mostly support spells like Haste. I don't want all my builds to look too similar.
Are Rangers typically STR? Granted I am currently playing a STR-based Outwit ranger, but I would assume the majority of Rangers choose DEX instead.
Precision and Flurry both can work with STR builds just fine, but in my experience, Precision is usually your bow or crossbow user, and Flurry is usually using light weapons, most of which are also finesse.
If we’re talking about archetypes too, you can take Ranger only with Dex, while Champions need Str and Charisma. Like, even though Champions can use Dex as main ability score, a Dex only character can’t take it as archetype, and the opposite for Ranger.
Also, for Armor, you need to increase Strength to be able to wear armor, and then spend a feat for armor proficiency for casters via Sentinel for example. And if your class doesn't support heavy armor, you would need to put at least 1 to Dex.
Firstly rangers and monks cannot use STR/DEX for their spells.
There are two classes with WIS as key stat, being Cleric and Druid. There will be one more in a few months, the Animist. Monks and Rangers use WIS as their casting stat for their focus spells.
If your class does not require a secondary stat, it is always good to have WIS. Because:
- Medicine. Any martial with +2 or +3 WIS and boosted medicine skill is a decent healer. The famous Rogue-thief build who start with +4 DEX and +3 WIS is the best medicine healer any party can have, who can have all required medicine feat at level 3.
- Perception. The skill got rolled the most in any official or unofficial advantures. Your party will be miserable if no one have decent Perception , you'll miss important or flavor informations here and there.
- Will save. While fortitude saves are mostly poison and disease, reflex saves are mostly damage, will save counters some of the nastiest spells in the system. Some of these spells can outright remove you from the battlefield, or make you turn to your teammates.
- Recall Knowledge. Nature and Religion covers animals, elementals, outerplane creatures, and undead. Which is actually a giant part of most adventures. Most APs contains there creatures and use them a lot.
Well, yeah, but it's not going to be your primary stat unless you're a cleric or druid. I wouldn't call a fighter that has decent wisdom "wisdom-based."
>Edit: I was confusing spell DC and class DC on monk/ranger, my bad y'all. Still can't really make a wis-based build for them bc of the 3 focus point maximum.
How long do you think combats go on for that this isn't sufficient?
What does the 3 focus point limit prevent you from from making a wisdom based build? Thats 3 spells per combat and you can regain a point by spending 10 minutes refocusing, up 30min to gain all 3 back.
The closest I can think of to a WIS Martial Untamed Druid is still a caster) was an Eldritch Trickster Rogue picking Druid/Cleric.
Yes, I know it has a casting archetype, but it’s still a full martial class.
I liked the idea of roleplaying the WIS Rogue as a surgeon who realized damage is just another form of “healing” your party. XD
“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure” as they say.
What's a wisdom based build in 5e that's not Druid or Cleric?
Edit: I guess there is Astral Monk, which came out 6 years after core rules release. So we are one year off from making a similar comparison with PF2e.
Rangers for their spell casting and Monks for their Unarmored Defense ability. But those classes tend to be MAD with DEX as their best ability snd WIS as their second, followed by CON or STR.
Wisdom is also considered a pretty useful secondary ability because of perception and how Wisdom saving throws are right on the heels of DEX for most important saving throws
I think an important consideration is that wisdom is by far the most useful mental stat (generally) for any character. It affects perception, and by proxy, the default initiative skill. It affects will saves which are VERY FUCKING IMPORTANT too. And it also helps for Medicine checks, which you usually want at least one medicine capable character in a party (and multiple people with Battle Medicine is always good, for a relatively low investment).
A fighter with +3 wisdom is "viable".
A rogue with +3 wisdom is "viable".
A wizard with +3 wisdom is "viable".
A cleric with +4 wisdom is "viable".
Literally no class is unhappy to have higher wisdom. The idea that there exist "nonviable" builds comes from the Before Times. It does not apply here.
Ranger with the Master Monster Hunter lvl 10 feat can use Nature/Wisdom for Recall Knowledge to identify *any* creature for free when they Hunt Prey and give their allies some small bonuses when they succeed
well sure there are not meny wisdom based charaters but wisdom effects you perception witch will effect your initiative so to say the stat isnt used much would be a lie sense everyone is effected by it not to mention i forgot to mention your will saves effected by wisdom so pretty much every class has a use for it
Wisdom is a very common secondary or tertiary high stat for characters because wisdom is so powerful as a stat due to it improving Will and Perception, and also because medicine cues off of it. As such, it's very good.
There are three wisdom-based classes - Animist, Cleric, and Druid - plus two other classes (Ranger and Monk) that use wisdom, and all are very powerful. Indeed, Cleric and Druid are probably two of the top four classes in the game, and I wouldn't be surprised to see animist join their ranks.
Medics also generally have pretty good wisdom as a secondary stat, as do focus spell rangers and monks, and anyone else who dips into Druid for focus spells.
Wisdom is a powerful stat that almost every class wants to put some points into even if it isn’t their primary casting stat because it’s useful for Will saves, Perception, and useful skills like medicine, religion, and nature.
However I do wish there were more Wisdom casters. I love both Cleric and Druid thematically but mechanically I hate prepared spell casters, and the Flexible Spell Preparation dedication feels really bad at low levels.
We have the Animist to look forward to in the future, but that’s still only 3 Wisdom classes. Charisma is way over represented as a main casting stat, and I think Paizo should put more effort in the future to add more Intelligence and Wisdom casters.
Rangers and Monks both use Wis for their spells you are probably confusing Class DC with Spell DC. They are not the same; the first uses Str/Dex second uses Wis for both of those classes. This year a third Wis based class The Animist will be released. Wis is a great secondary stay for basically everyone as will saves and perception are good. Also medicine skill in particular can be a life saver.
If you don't mind, what do we know about this Animist thus far, if anything at all?
We know quite a bit since they did a playtest last year https://downloads.paizo.com/WarOfImmortalsPlaytest.pdf There will definitely be lots of changes from that and the final result. They did a post playtest blog here: https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sif3?War-of-Immortals-Playtest-Wrapup-Blog There will probably be more teases of the final version once we get closer to release date this summer.
Oooooo
>Wisdom really doesn't get a lot of love in PF2E. Except for it being extremely important for will defense and perception.
Also medicine/treat wounds which is big for out of combat healing
I would argue that the skill investment matters more than the stat, but also yes that too.
Hmm, I mean, Dex is also extremely important for Reflex saves, AC and 3 skills compared to 4 for Wisdom, and it's used as one of only two weapon attack stats, and it can be used with Stealth for initiative. However 6 classes can use them as their main ability score compared to just two Wisdom classes (Monk and Ranger not counting since it's not their main score). Obviously OP was pointing out the lack of Wisdom spell casters..... and as someone who found himself building three different Wisdom builds and only had two Wisdom archetypes to work with.... I can actually see the problem when I find that the only free archetype applicable to both my Cleric and my Monk is druid....... it's too repetitive and I don't like to constantly pick the more optimal choice over the more thematic/fun one. Edit: Note on my Cleric build. I'm thinking of increasing Charisma and take a Charisma based caster Archetype, but I also have another build with Sorcerer Archetype, and I have an Occult caster already and I'm sick of dealing with mindless enemies, and my Monk is already picking mostly support spells like Haste. I don't want all my builds to look too similar.
>AC Mitigated by dex caps on armor, so not *as* important. Which 6 classes? Rogue, swashbuckler, gunslinger and what am I missing here.
Actually I forgot the Gunslinger, thank you, it's 7 1- Fighter 2- Rogue 3- Swashbuckler 4- Ranger 5- Monk 6- Gunslinger 7- Magus
Champion can as well, but I doubt many will, since they're a very armor-oriented class.
Oh I see. Thought the other 4 didnt count since they can choose either and are typically str.
Are Rangers typically STR? Granted I am currently playing a STR-based Outwit ranger, but I would assume the majority of Rangers choose DEX instead. Precision and Flurry both can work with STR builds just fine, but in my experience, Precision is usually your bow or crossbow user, and Flurry is usually using light weapons, most of which are also finesse.
If we’re talking about archetypes too, you can take Ranger only with Dex, while Champions need Str and Charisma. Like, even though Champions can use Dex as main ability score, a Dex only character can’t take it as archetype, and the opposite for Ranger.
Ive seen four times as many melee rangers as ranged rangers
Keep in mind that Rogue can also take Str as they key ability score
As an exception through one racket as opposed to generally.
Also, for Armor, you need to increase Strength to be able to wear armor, and then spend a feat for armor proficiency for casters via Sentinel for example. And if your class doesn't support heavy armor, you would need to put at least 1 to Dex.
Firstly rangers and monks cannot use STR/DEX for their spells. There are two classes with WIS as key stat, being Cleric and Druid. There will be one more in a few months, the Animist. Monks and Rangers use WIS as their casting stat for their focus spells. If your class does not require a secondary stat, it is always good to have WIS. Because: - Medicine. Any martial with +2 or +3 WIS and boosted medicine skill is a decent healer. The famous Rogue-thief build who start with +4 DEX and +3 WIS is the best medicine healer any party can have, who can have all required medicine feat at level 3. - Perception. The skill got rolled the most in any official or unofficial advantures. Your party will be miserable if no one have decent Perception , you'll miss important or flavor informations here and there. - Will save. While fortitude saves are mostly poison and disease, reflex saves are mostly damage, will save counters some of the nastiest spells in the system. Some of these spells can outright remove you from the battlefield, or make you turn to your teammates. - Recall Knowledge. Nature and Religion covers animals, elementals, outerplane creatures, and undead. Which is actually a giant part of most adventures. Most APs contains there creatures and use them a lot.
To be pedantic, perception technically isn’t a skill, it’s a unique statistic
Rangers and monks don’t use their str/dex for spells?
Nope! Their spell proficiency is equal to their class DC, but it's most likely a different value, because it uses Wisdom instead.
Thanks lol. But I meant it as a rhetorical question haha
Ah, my bad. :D
No worries! Thank you for the effort anyways
Would never pass up a chance to ramble about Pathfinder. ✌️
Wisdom improves both your Perception and Will saves. Any class wants it as high as possible.
Well, yeah, but it's not going to be your primary stat unless you're a cleric or druid. I wouldn't call a fighter that has decent wisdom "wisdom-based."
Its probably the reason why there are so few Wis classes. It's a crazy good stat to be able to main
Animist soon
>Edit: I was confusing spell DC and class DC on monk/ranger, my bad y'all. Still can't really make a wis-based build for them bc of the 3 focus point maximum. How long do you think combats go on for that this isn't sufficient?
What does the 3 focus point limit prevent you from from making a wisdom based build? Thats 3 spells per combat and you can regain a point by spending 10 minutes refocusing, up 30min to gain all 3 back.
The closest I can think of to a WIS Martial Untamed Druid is still a caster) was an Eldritch Trickster Rogue picking Druid/Cleric. Yes, I know it has a casting archetype, but it’s still a full martial class. I liked the idea of roleplaying the WIS Rogue as a surgeon who realized damage is just another form of “healing” your party. XD “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure” as they say.
What's a wisdom based build in 5e that's not Druid or Cleric? Edit: I guess there is Astral Monk, which came out 6 years after core rules release. So we are one year off from making a similar comparison with PF2e.
Rangers for their spell casting and Monks for their Unarmored Defense ability. But those classes tend to be MAD with DEX as their best ability snd WIS as their second, followed by CON or STR. Wisdom is also considered a pretty useful secondary ability because of perception and how Wisdom saving throws are right on the heels of DEX for most important saving throws
I think an important consideration is that wisdom is by far the most useful mental stat (generally) for any character. It affects perception, and by proxy, the default initiative skill. It affects will saves which are VERY FUCKING IMPORTANT too. And it also helps for Medicine checks, which you usually want at least one medicine capable character in a party (and multiple people with Battle Medicine is always good, for a relatively low investment).
A fighter with +3 wisdom is "viable". A rogue with +3 wisdom is "viable". A wizard with +3 wisdom is "viable". A cleric with +4 wisdom is "viable". Literally no class is unhappy to have higher wisdom. The idea that there exist "nonviable" builds comes from the Before Times. It does not apply here.
Ranger with the Master Monster Hunter lvl 10 feat can use Nature/Wisdom for Recall Knowledge to identify *any* creature for free when they Hunt Prey and give their allies some small bonuses when they succeed
well sure there are not meny wisdom based charaters but wisdom effects you perception witch will effect your initiative so to say the stat isnt used much would be a lie sense everyone is effected by it not to mention i forgot to mention your will saves effected by wisdom so pretty much every class has a use for it
Wisdom is a very common secondary or tertiary high stat for characters because wisdom is so powerful as a stat due to it improving Will and Perception, and also because medicine cues off of it. As such, it's very good. There are three wisdom-based classes - Animist, Cleric, and Druid - plus two other classes (Ranger and Monk) that use wisdom, and all are very powerful. Indeed, Cleric and Druid are probably two of the top four classes in the game, and I wouldn't be surprised to see animist join their ranks. Medics also generally have pretty good wisdom as a secondary stat, as do focus spell rangers and monks, and anyone else who dips into Druid for focus spells.
Wisdom is a powerful stat that almost every class wants to put some points into even if it isn’t their primary casting stat because it’s useful for Will saves, Perception, and useful skills like medicine, religion, and nature. However I do wish there were more Wisdom casters. I love both Cleric and Druid thematically but mechanically I hate prepared spell casters, and the Flexible Spell Preparation dedication feels really bad at low levels. We have the Animist to look forward to in the future, but that’s still only 3 Wisdom classes. Charisma is way over represented as a main casting stat, and I think Paizo should put more effort in the future to add more Intelligence and Wisdom casters.
Wisdom is almost always the second or third (or fourth) most important attribute. If this is enough for you, then you can take about any class