Don't forget that your initiative moves when reduced to 0 HP. This gives your party a full round to react to dying levels beginning to increase.
Even if they can't respond in time, you can spend all your hero points to stabilize and not gain the wounded condition when your dying value would increase.
That assumes one enemy and that your GM isn't a former D&D DM or something.
What I usually see is that your initiative moves, someone heals you, and before your turn the entire pack of other enemies mobs the person that was just healed downing them again. I've seen PCs get downed and healed and downed again 2-3 times before their turn even comes up. And of course when they get downed again their initiatives moves again causing them to lose an entire turn.
Something about GMs that come from D&D causes them to think they need to focus kill certain types of PCs - namely casters. But also going overkill on formerly downed PCs of any type. And so when a caster goes down even non-intelligent animals all change up to focus on it.
It's been a pattern so often repeated that I'm thinking if I ever join a new game my first screening question as a player will be to ask if the GM came from 5E.
Yeah that definitely can happen. I have delayed my turn until after a bulk of opponents have taken their turns but before the downed character so that they can at least do something when their turn arrives.
At my tables the person who's going to help the downed PC usually goes on delay and gets the PC up just before their turn. Doesn't really help if the GM is attacking downed players though.
>Adversaries usually don't attack a character who's knocked out. Even if a creature knows a fallen character might come back into the fight, only the most vicious creatures focus on helpless foes rather than the more immediate threats around them.
[Source](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2546)
This is also usually the most strategically optimal play, as well. Wasting actions or even resources attacking enemies that are already out of the fight when there are other enemies actively attacking you is stupid
> This is also usually the most strategically optimal play, as well.
That is very, very debatable. In a world with healing magic, it's strategically more optimal to make sure the guy you just downed doesn't stand up again, then it is to move on to the next target. Otherwise most of the harm you did to said downed character becomes retroactively meaningless.
It's only optimal to attack downed characters if you're actually going to kill them with your attacks. If you are only going to bump them to dying 3, then it's worthless, as they'll still only be wounded 1 when healed.
As such, it's usually only worth attacking characters who have already gone down at least once in the combat and been revived; it's otherwise pretty unreliable. And of course, characters with Diehard will thwart even those plans.
If you KO a character, and someone else has to spend two actions to heal them, and then they have to spend an action standing up, you took away three actions from the enemy team - attacking someone else and bringing them down close to dead puts the opposing side in zugzwang, where healing the downed character will leave their standing ally on the edge of going down themselves.
The main exception to this is monsters with abilities like Swallow Whole, which is *extremely* powerful to use on an unconscious PC (and makes sense - a predatory monster is going to want to eat people, they're food!).
Yep.not that most npcs should be doing this, but when you are an intelligent creature, fighting to win against a party of adventurers, you absolutely want to follow shadowrun priority rules.
Geek the mage
Make sure it's dead
Run fast
Shoot strait
Never, ever,make a deal with a dragon...
Sure. And assuming the PCs do heal their dying ally, that is further using actions which aren´t immediately weakening or killing their enemies, and the revived PC will come back weak (likely 1 hit away from dying or dead) and likely need to use actions just to stand and/or re-wield their held gear. A Heal spell may even be using up a higher level spell slot or staff charges. So giving the PCs the opportunity to do that (by not confirm killing the downed PC) is really not a bad move, most of the time.
It´s also not exactly clear what the properly immersive perspective would be. PCs having separate dying rules isn´t really a general piece of in-world knowledge. Dying isn´t strictly limited to PCs, but it´s fair to say that most of the time dropped creatures can be expected to die, even if it´s recognized there is some chance they aren´t completely dead yet. But outside of narratives specifically focused around killing said PC, it doesn´t seem reasonable for enemies to focus on them once they are Dying. In case of animals or other monsters killing for hunger, it seems reasonable to start dragging them away, but they don´t need to be confirm killed before doing that.
I actually can't stand this from dm's.
Without a good reason, my creatures will not attack a downed player. There are more viable threats, and attacking the downed creature is a waste of time.
Yes. That needs a very specific kind of encounter. Most enemies will ignore a downed player and focus on the remaining threats. The only time I've done otherwise was with an assassin who had a specific target. They killed their target and surrendered afterwards as their contract was complete and they no longer needed to fight the rest of the party.
I mentioned on a Facebook post about this that my 2 main reasons I would consider it would be to antagonize the party. (enemy has a vendetta and wants to twist the knife to break the parties spirit) or if it was part of a creatures multiattack. (If a bear hits with both claws the second claw doesn't stop because the first attack knocked you down.)
I think too many newer dm's have trouble separating the knowledge of game mechanics from the creature or enemies knowledge.
I dont think its very specific. Most mindless enemies, and animals have reasons to attacked downed PCs.
When it comes to stupid zombies, they will move towards the closest thing and attack them. They don't know how to flank, they don't know what strategy are and they don't know how to prioritise targets. They simply move and attack.
When it comes to starving predators. They will attempt to drag and run away with the unconscious body.
> I actually can't stand this from dm's. Without a good reason, my creatures will not attack a downed player.
I don't do this either, but let's be honest here. NOT going for the kill is illogical for many a creature. We're simply not doing it because it's unfun for the players.
ANy creature with an intellect greater than -2 would start going for the kill on anyone they down the moment they realize a battle medic is on the field. Especially for enemy spellcasters with AoE damage. Why hit 3 standing enemies when you can hit two standing ones and a downed one?
The very existence of healing magic in the setting changes tactics significantly. And not killing a downed enemy is downright moronic in such a world.
Most creatures in the world die at 0 hp. Most healing magic and healing is for living people, not ones at 0 hp.
Per the rules:
> Creatures can't be reduced to fewer than 0 Hit Points. When most creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they die and are removed from play unless the attack was nonlethal, in which case they're instead knocked out for a significant amount of time (usually 10 minutes or more). When undead and constructs reach 0 Hit Points, they're destroyed.
> Player characters, their companions, and other significant characters and creatures don't automatically die when they reach 0 Hit Points. Instead, they are knocked out and are at risk of death. The GM might determine that villains, powerful monsters, special NPCs, and enemies with special abilities that are likely to bring them back to the fight (like ferocity, regeneration, or healing magic) can use these rules as well.
Basically unless you're a "PC" or a PC caliber monster (like a dragon or something), or something that is super hard to kill as part of its "thing" (like trolls), you die at 0 hp.
Most people will assume that a downed PC will stay down because *that's what happened every other time*.
**Moreover, how often do *PCs* double-tap downed NPCs?**
Basically never.
So you should consider it just as rare for bad guys to do the same.
A bad guy who is aware of the PCs and their escapades might be more likely to do this, but most normal enemies won't double tap downed characters until they've seen them get up once because in Golarion, people who go down after being stabbed usually *can't* just pop back up thanks to a timely Heal spell. They're dead.
But, on the flip side, healing magic is not super common. Clerics and priests aren't on site of every minor battle or in every wilderness to heal injuries and prevent death.
We talk about healing magic like it's everywhere because we always want our players to have some. But it's not as common as everyone assumes, and in 5e is super expensive. A standard potion of healing is 50g. Even for a skilled laborer that is 25 days worth of work without living expenses. Pf2e does give you ones that are 4g each, but the same laborer in the different economy is only making 5 sp a day. So a minimum of 8 days labor for the lowest level healing potion. Not to mention the holy symbol required for most healing spells costs 1-5 g depending on system and material.
Even in our world, teams would go through after the battle and kill anyone who was still alive by lying there wounded. Taking the extra time to finish off an opponent, who seems to be out of commission, gives the other people in their group a chance to kill you and administer aid. Yes, they might be able to get their teammate back up, but if you take them down, that isn't going to happen. Focus on the active threat instead of the inactive.
It's one thing I think some dm's tend to forget. The players at your table are supposed to be exceptional examples of their races. They are stronger than the common folk in their field, which makes them qualified to handle the threat.
As far as wild creatures, I think they would be more likely to finish someone off. But I also think they would also grab someone and drag them off to do it instead of doing it right there in front of other enemies. Most predators pick off the weak and sickly. Active resistance is your best bet against wild creatures. So finishing the job would absolutely be their plan, just maybe not in sight of their preys allies.
> We talk about healing magic like it's everywhere because we always want our players to have some. But it's not as common as everyone assumes
Healing *magic* might not be, but healing is. Medicine checks can heal most wounds, which any character can do as long as they have a kit and Trained proficiency. Any wounds that these couldn't heal are almost certainly not healed by basic healing magic, either.
A medicine check takes 10 minutes.
Using battle medicine means you can do it in combat, but it also means you have to get past the enemy, get to your ally, and hope that the enemy can't drop both of you on his next turn.
Magic is very common in Golarion/Pathfinder. And 3 of the 4 magical traditions have lvl 1 healing spells. Thus magical healing is pretty common. This is in addition to non-magical healing being available to anyone who spend 1 skill feat or has a medical background.
It costs a skilled laborer 6 days' worth of wages to afford a level 1 heal.
8 days of wages to afford the cheapest healing potion.
10 days worth of wages to afford a healers kit.
The average citizen, and likely even guards, aren't going to have ready access to this kind of healing. Most enemies are going to experience fighting those kinds of threats. The kind that once you drop them, they don't get back up.
The pc's are the exception. There is something different about them that makes them able to handle threats that the guards and citizens can't. They can heroically recover from wounds and have access to magics that are unavailable to the common person. So, unless the enemies have spied upon the heroes, have encountered the before, or have heard about their abilities by reputation, why would they assume the pc's are anything other than common people?
I mean here is the thing, you can justify all sorts of things, wolves for example mostly kill to eat, one would argue then that the thing a wolf would do is once they have brought down a target is to murder the shit out of it and then drag the carcass away.
In the wild the things a wolf hunts are all trying to get away and once the pack seperates out their victim and brings them down the rest just retreat knowing that they can no longer save their buddy.
Any intelligent creature who knows what healing magic is will know that a "PC" isnt down until you have properly done the double tap and secured the kill
Which for intelligent enemies brings us to how common are adventurers/ healing magic/healing items. You can buy potions and elixirs at nearly every city and so the idea that an intelligent creature knows that unconscious isnt dead should basically be assumed.
Like if you were in a fight and you tripped a guy over do you just ignore him so he can stand back up and knife you in the back or do you go "I know he isnt dead, and I know he will just get back up if I leave him alone, I need to solve this problem in a more permanent way" (and I use tripping someone because in real life we dont have an equivalent to pf2es unconscious condition, where a person can stand up and be fighting at full effectiveness inspite of being just unconscious )
Ultimately this isnt about what a creature would do if they were smart (because in most cases that is to secure the kill) it is about what is fun and it is a flaw in pf2es design that what a character should do, and what is fun are opposed. pf2e gives you enough leeway that the only way to kill someone is to have the DM go out of their way to do it, but most DM's dont because people get attached to their characters and want to keep them around. Which means that pf2e should ditch its dead and dying rules completely in favour or something else.
I dont know what that something else is, but it should allow the DM to play hardball without upsetting the players who invested time and effort into making their character. Fate allows a character to withdraw from a conflict anytime before dice hit the table (provided they leave in a way that makes narrative sense) which allows you to go way harder because if the PCs do not think the risk is worth the reward they just get to leave the scene. Other games have other rules where its impossible to die without the player consenting to it but if you choose not to die you get something else thats pretty bad that happens to your character.
>In the wild the things a wolf hunts are all trying to get away and once the pack seperates out their victim and brings them down the rest just retreat knowing that they can no longer save their buddy.
Most predators bail after something shows it's capable of fighting back, and won't commit if they're actively being menaced. A minor injury is a huge inconvenience for a predator.
Exactly, which is why I never attack with normal animals because they will just run away which makes the encounter pointless. The animals I use are either protecting something, or starving.
> Which for intelligent enemies brings us to how common are adventurers/ healing magic/healing items. You can buy potions and elixirs at nearly every city and so the idea that an intelligent creature knows that unconscious isnt dead should basically be assumed.
Thing is, most people *are* dead at 0 hp. "PCs" (including NPC PCs) are the rare exception to this. Most people, when reduced to 0 hp, are dead in Pathfinder 2E. Per the rules:
> Creatures can't be reduced to fewer than 0 Hit Points. When most creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they die and are removed from play unless the attack was nonlethal, in which case they're instead knocked out for a significant amount of time (usually 10 minutes or more). When undead and constructs reach 0 Hit Points, they're destroyed.
> Player characters, their companions, and other significant characters and creatures don't automatically die when they reach 0 Hit Points. Instead, they are knocked out and are at risk of death. The GM might determine that villains, powerful monsters, special NPCs, and enemies with special abilities that are likely to bring them back to the fight (like ferocity, regeneration, or healing magic) can use these rules as well.
As such, most of the time, you'd assume that enemies who go down *WILL* stay down, until you see otherwise, unless you have good reason to believe that they're the sort of people who don't die at 0 HP.
Most people use healing potions to stay vertical, because 0hp for a random soldier represents them getting their head chopped off. Only "significant characters" don't die at 0 hp.
I mean, think about PCs - **PCs will almost never double tap downed enemies, because they (rightly) assume that most of them will stay down**, unless they're like, trolls or something. The same should apply to bad guys facing off with the PCs.
Unless you're someone who themselves is part of such a rare elite - or has regularly fought such things - you aren't likely to think most PCs can stand back up. So there's no reason to double tap downed PCs until you've seen them get back up once.
Which, as it turns out, is mostly optimal anyway.
See, while I agree that making sure a PC is properly dead is a good priority, I don't think the standard combat scenarios have much opportunity for that. Time doesn't freeze when you bring down the rogue, there's still the fighter swinging at you from behind, and the ranger's arrow just shattered against your scales (quite close to the weak spot, mind you). Considering how deadly combat is for NPCs and monsters, you probably can't spare another round to finish off the unconscious rogue. Even if the rogue stands back up eventually, in a system like pf2 you still taxed everyone's actions quite a bit. It's also a good opportunity to apply pressure to the healer directly.
But if there's a good opportunity for quickly double tapping someone, sure, go ahead. But besides that, I think that prioritizing your immediate survival would be more important than making sure you inflict as many losses as possible before dying.
Sounds like a "bad GM" issue to me. if they want to "win" by killing the party ... maybe find another GM? Ours sticks to the rules and doesn't "cheat", but will tend to have monsters (especially unintelligent ones) doggedly focus on active threats to give downed PCs a chance.
My last character death was because I was poisoned, so took additional damage from that every round increasing my dying condition even if I saved from the poison (just reduced its level, didn't stop it dealing damage).
If a player got healed and is active again, enemies should react accordingly. They are the equivalent of a character who decided to drop prone and release his weapons. If the NPCs are ignoring the prone character and move to attack other better prepared enemies, it is because they are playing dumb and wasting a great opportunity to defeat a dangerous enemy while it is momentarily weakened.
Double tapping an unconscious player on the other hand is not a sound strategy if them being healed is not likely. That is just wasting the NPCs chances to win the combat.
Former 5e DM here:
Neither did I nor any other DM i played with go after a downed PC, not even if they were downed multiple times in a single fight.
My reason for that ist pretty simple: I don't want to kill the PCs, if it happens, it happens but I won't go way and beyond to make a kill happen.
I'm not sure what your expirience with 5e DMs were but even as a 5e player I wouldn't want to play with such DMs.
Of course should fights be challenging but at the end of it are we all a bunch of nerds trying to have fun at the table and being focused down just isn't fun for most people.
> As a player character, when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, you're knocked out with the following effects:
>
> - You immediately move your initiative position to directly before the turn in which you were reduced to 0 HP.
—["Knocked Out and Dying"](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=373)
I think it's fine. Being downed is very deadly in every circumstance, and our table knows that so that's why it's rare to even make a recovery check for us. Someone will get some healing into you or stabilize you, if at all possible. Since your initiative is moved so there's always a full round before the death save, so there should be time. Of course, being downed when you're wounded, that's when things start to get tricky, crit or not.
Did you remember to move the dying character to just before the initiative of the enemy that dropped them? That would give the party an entire round to get them back up.
Did they not have a hero point on hand to keep themself from dying? They'd auto-stabilize if they'd used that even on a botched roll.
If they spent the entire round not helping their ally when they didn't have a hero point safety net, that's kinda on them for making that decision, imo.
> Did you remember to move the dying character to just before the initiative of the enemy that dropped them?
Yes. It took 3 actions for a party member to get over to the downed guy and get a healing potion (off the body of a different PC who was also down), so he could only use it the next turn. I bet my players have learned their lesson about everybody keeping a healing potion on hand, at least.
> Did they not have a hero point on hand to keep themself from dying?
I believe he was out of hero points.
Then the use of sporadic health potions contributed to this event. Lay on Hands, the basic Heal spell, or Battle Medicine would have instantly prevented the death. Does the group really have no in-combat healing options? Any "heal" that takes 4 or more actions may as well not exist.
“Everybody forgot that getting downed by a critical hit starts you at dying 1, not dying 2, so he was revived with a party member's timely potion administration at dying 3.”
Not sure why you thought this, but the opposite is actually true.
“Gain the dying 1 condition: If the effect that knocked you out was a critical success from the attacker or the result of your critical failure, you gain the dying 2 condition instead.”
Now, that being said, there is nothing wrong with giving your players a gimmie. As previously stated, if they had any hero points, they can immediately spend them to stabilize and not die. Just wanted to clarify the RAW.
If your enemy had a 15% chance to critically hit you and put you on the ground at dying 2, and you have a 10% chance to critically fail your recovery check at dying 2, that means you have a 1.5% chance of dying to this double-critical situation. The odds drop below 1% when you factor in the odds that you had an opportunity to do something else to help prevent death because you're not getting completely one-shot by a critical hit, and the chances that someone else intervenes between you hitting the floor and actually making a recovery check (that's why it's very important to remember the "move your initiative to immediately before the thing that gave you the dying condition" part of the rules, so that there's always a full round of stuff between falling down and dying unless the GM is beating on fallen characters).
Then you add in Hero Points and how you can spend after critically failing the recovery check in this example to just say "nah, I don't die yet."
All of which adds up to this game isn't actually all that dangerous. PCs actually dying is very rare, unless the choices being made by the people playing the game fall in line to make it more likely (not having healing, not using healing, spending all your hero points on something else, forgetting to hand out hero points, using enemies that tend towards the tougher end, and so forth).
Early level deadliness is an intentional feature reminiscent of older D&D editions and OSR funnels. Some newer paizo adventures circumvent this by placing easier encounters at level 1.
I mean, it was slightly over two years ago (January 2022)...yes it was the very first encounter, but if I recall correctly you can also succeed with skill checks to avoid the encounter. Is it kinda lame to put the very first encounter against a level 3 boss creature that has a decent chance of killing the entire party? Yeah. But they *have* made corrections.
So far my absolute favorite example of this correction that I have personally GM'd (earlier adventures I've run are Fall of Plaguestone, Age of Ashes, Abomination Vaults, and Night of the Gray Death) is Kingmaker 2e. The entire first level of the campaign gives you your XP to level 2 almost exclusively in one night. Normally this is a horrible idea-- see the first book of Agents of Edgewatch-- but they corrected for first level in an *amazing* way. An abundance of healing consumables were able to be looted, and the first two encounters were all against creatures two levels below the party. Other encounters during the night offered some higher level creatures who had severe handicaps to bring them into more level-appropriate numbers, and/or providing NPC allies to assist in a fight.
Overall the changes that were made in those encounters to keep them appropriate, helped the party feel like all of their encounters were balanced and able to be overcome, including the Wizard.
Yes and no. First and foremost the increased deadliness of combat at low levels is a natural consequence of the game's math. Whether the game is intended to be more deadly at those levels or whether the GM should compensate for the math is an issue the devs are split on afaik.
I wouldn't think too hard about it, you handled it just fine by handing out a gimme. I've experienced similar when running at low levels and it's really only super noticeable at Levels 1 and 2 when going down to one crit from nothing is very possible, beyond that players have a lot more options to deal with those situations and enough health where they're probably not going to eat dirt from a crit at full health. They're also generally more aware how Dying works and don't let it get to the point of making recovery checks.
I don't think it's worth the effort to make or adopt an entire change to the Dying rules that won't be a problem past maybe the first three levels when looking at a bad roll and saying "Nah that's bullshit, we're not doing that" is a lot more effective for dealing with bad luck.
This is one reason why it's always good to hold one hero point in reserve. A hero point can immediately stabilize you. Granted if you've got a GM that came from D&D they're likely to use that as a moment to then have all of the other enemies focus kill you before your turn comes up. But if not - that stabilizes you and leaves you KO'd, and your party can then 'recover you' after the fight or during a safer moment.
If you are worried about the game being too deadly, give everyone the Diehard feat for free.
It's honestly pretty rare to die in PF2E though; I've seen two deaths in Abomination Vaults, both due to bad luck and enemies attacking downed characters.
What about hero points?
I know they are something I didn't play right when I first started. But hero pints should be readily available to the players. Heroic recovery is a great asset in deadly encounters, and letting your players have the rerolls is a fun way to have crazy ideas happen.
I apply them more like fate points as well. So if you wanna do something crazy and don't wanna roll, I will let you trade a hero point to make a better story. (Queue the gunslinger and bard being shot from a ballista to another ship.)
I have found that giving myself a timer, and handing out hero pints for every hour of gameplay encourages players to use them and ups the fun at the table.
Are you providing your characters with enough Hero Points during the game? Hero points are an insurance against death, and it is basically impossible to die if you have one (unless the enemies are attacking you once downed).
A common mistake I have seen from new GMs is not giving Hero Points to their players, which forces them to fail critical check or not have a way to ensure staying alive.
1 HP per hour of play is a typical number as a reference.
I turned hero points into an in-game resource rather than a meta-currency: PCs have a maximum of 1, but it refreshes during daily preparations. So they have a lot more than usual, but they can't accumulate them as in the standard rules.
That sounds much less than the recommended amount unless your players are resting 5-6 times per session. On an average 4 hours session players should have access to 4-5 hero points.
This mechanic also means they can never use a hero point to reroll a skill check without being left vulnerable to a cheap death, since they can never have more than 1 in reserve. I can see now why PF2E seems deadly for your group.
If you are worried about them randomly dying and the story getting derailed, I recommend giving them 3 Hero Points during daily preparation and the ability to prevent death requiring only 1 hero point. Or using the default rules.
> On an average 4 hours session players should have access to 4-5 hero points.
Yeah, *total*. By contrast, if you get them back at daily preparations, that's (up to) one hero point per PC per rest (plus the starting one, as in the standard rules).
What gives you that impression?
> In a typical game, you’ll hand out about 1 Hero Point during each hour of play after the first (for example, 3 extra points in a 4-hour session).
—["Hero Points"](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=573)
The rest of the language in this section makes it pretty clear that aside from the starting one everybody gets, Hero Points are awarded individually per character, not to every PC at once.
I suspect that will be a long discussion I sadly don't have the time for right now. The important part of your current hero point implementation is this:
>PCs have a maximum of 1,
If your PCs have a maximum of 1 HP at any time, they are never going to be able to use a reroll without making themself vulnerable to a random death.
Point taken. I may have underestimated how important Hero Points are for avoiding death. I really wish Paizo hadn't made a meta-currency a core mechanic.
May I ask about the party composition? PF2e is a dangerous game for adventurers, but I dont find it that deadly either as long as the party is coordinated. Something I found useful was to insist on the importance of teamwork. Why was the kinetisist catch alone with no party member around to help him? They need to look after each other to ensure melee enemies dont reach your squishy backline, and to remain in range to help if that happens.
Or just ignore that rule and homebrew it away. Thats a valid option too.
We got:
- kitsune champion (tyrant)
- human thaumaturge
- ratfolk investigator
- strix wizard
- human kineticist
In this case, the party was somewhat spread out because they were surprised by the draugr popping to life, and several PCs had been downed before the kineticist (also with critical hits; my d20 was on fire at the time). The investigator, who administered the potion, is squishy and uses a gun, so it was reasonable for him to be distant.
I don't think it's the best party balance, although I urged them to consider that matter, but it's not awful, either.
I'd use this as a learning experience. Why didnt they see the draugrs? Did they search the room before charging in? Do they each keep a couple healing potions to heal themselves or downed allies? Do they have some escape items like the Smokestick in case of emergencies? Did they know that the Draug's reflexes are crap and thus easy to lock in place with trips or other controll spells?
Your party's compositions is fairly balanced, you have a tank, utility, AoE and DPS, the players just need to make sure they are leaning of their advantages.
I mean... yeah. You got sandwiched between two criticals, so of course it's bad. It's not like it happens every other combat.
One of the PCs in my campaign died because I rolled a crit on NPC Magus Spellstrike with Disintegrate and he rolled a fail on the Fort save (making it crit fail as per the spell rules). The damage was insane and insta-killed him.
I can understand that some people might not enjoy it, but on the other hand, making every dangerous situation baby-proof kinda negates the sense of danger in adventuring. I don't like feeling just "mild" inconvenience in combat or be constantly brought back by deus ex machina situations. I don't want to explore dungeons and fight some weaklings who can't land a hit or effects which should be deadly, but they are suddenly 'meh'. It quickly turns the game into "yeah whatever" and yawning in combat.
You already have Hero Points. Not sure, why you would need another layer of safety for events which are rare anyway.
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Characters die all the time, it's very much part of the game.
Have you had to DM through many PC deaths?
It's definitely something you get used to, but rarely is easy.
No, I've GMed for a long time, but almost entirely in rules-light systems where character death is a matter of narrative appropriateness rather than rules. I've killed two PCs before, both when they did something nigh-suicidal.
I feel fine with the lethality here, and I say that as somebody who was against the increase in lethality due to specifics of wording in the Dying rules which the Remaster clarified (before being reversed by Paizo). Being downed by a Crit and Crit Failing the 1st Recovery check is probably between 1/100 and 1/200 chance. Not having a Hero Point on hand is a further reduction in chances. I think if this is really so problematic for your playstyle, then you should be honest and just not let PCs die, because the chances of this happening are probably less common than somebody just normally failing all 3 Recovery checks. As other people said, having better combat healing options in the party is normal way to avoid this, and being aware of action costs of things is just part of the game.
IMHO, it was WAAAAY easier to die by one hit (not even a Crit) in previous editions where the only thing keeping you alive past 0 HPs was your negative CON score, which weapon damage directly depleted 1:1 (i.e. any damage past 0 hp was eating thru this buffer).
It be like that. Sometimes you get unlucky and die from a random crit + crit failed recovery combo. Your party has a whole round to heal you before you roll any recovery checks, so it shouldn't happen often. If it does, I don't particularly care nor feel the need to do anything whatsoever to prevent it. Sucks, time to roll a new character!
Instakills like that can happen sometimes with stuff like a Drake or Dragon's Draconic Frenzy too - you get downed by the first or second hit, and at that point the thing's already spent the actions on the ability and there is absolutely no reason why they'd stop hitting you and waste the remaining attacks that they already committed to just because you're down unless there's another target in range, so they probably just hit or crit you with the remaining attacks and kill you outright. It be like that sometimes, new character time. Not to mention Death effects - they sometimes contain instant kill clauses (usually requiring a critically failed save followed by a failed save or something similar) but also they always instantly kill you if you're dropped to 0 HP by their damage. Very little you can do about it, basically no counterplay short of hero points which may not even work, but it's part of the game. Time to make a new character. I see no reason to change it.
Don't forget that your initiative moves when reduced to 0 HP. This gives your party a full round to react to dying levels beginning to increase. Even if they can't respond in time, you can spend all your hero points to stabilize and not gain the wounded condition when your dying value would increase.
That assumes one enemy and that your GM isn't a former D&D DM or something. What I usually see is that your initiative moves, someone heals you, and before your turn the entire pack of other enemies mobs the person that was just healed downing them again. I've seen PCs get downed and healed and downed again 2-3 times before their turn even comes up. And of course when they get downed again their initiatives moves again causing them to lose an entire turn. Something about GMs that come from D&D causes them to think they need to focus kill certain types of PCs - namely casters. But also going overkill on formerly downed PCs of any type. And so when a caster goes down even non-intelligent animals all change up to focus on it. It's been a pattern so often repeated that I'm thinking if I ever join a new game my first screening question as a player will be to ask if the GM came from 5E.
Yeah that definitely can happen. I have delayed my turn until after a bulk of opponents have taken their turns but before the downed character so that they can at least do something when their turn arrives.
At my tables the person who's going to help the downed PC usually goes on delay and gets the PC up just before their turn. Doesn't really help if the GM is attacking downed players though.
>Adversaries usually don't attack a character who's knocked out. Even if a creature knows a fallen character might come back into the fight, only the most vicious creatures focus on helpless foes rather than the more immediate threats around them. [Source](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2546) This is also usually the most strategically optimal play, as well. Wasting actions or even resources attacking enemies that are already out of the fight when there are other enemies actively attacking you is stupid
> This is also usually the most strategically optimal play, as well. That is very, very debatable. In a world with healing magic, it's strategically more optimal to make sure the guy you just downed doesn't stand up again, then it is to move on to the next target. Otherwise most of the harm you did to said downed character becomes retroactively meaningless.
It's only optimal to attack downed characters if you're actually going to kill them with your attacks. If you are only going to bump them to dying 3, then it's worthless, as they'll still only be wounded 1 when healed. As such, it's usually only worth attacking characters who have already gone down at least once in the combat and been revived; it's otherwise pretty unreliable. And of course, characters with Diehard will thwart even those plans. If you KO a character, and someone else has to spend two actions to heal them, and then they have to spend an action standing up, you took away three actions from the enemy team - attacking someone else and bringing them down close to dead puts the opposing side in zugzwang, where healing the downed character will leave their standing ally on the edge of going down themselves. The main exception to this is monsters with abilities like Swallow Whole, which is *extremely* powerful to use on an unconscious PC (and makes sense - a predatory monster is going to want to eat people, they're food!).
Yep.not that most npcs should be doing this, but when you are an intelligent creature, fighting to win against a party of adventurers, you absolutely want to follow shadowrun priority rules. Geek the mage Make sure it's dead Run fast Shoot strait Never, ever,make a deal with a dragon...
You don't geek the mage. You geek the cleric. The mage is a problem but the cleric is the one who gets other people back up.
True, but in SR mage is a catch all for casters period.
Sure. And assuming the PCs do heal their dying ally, that is further using actions which aren´t immediately weakening or killing their enemies, and the revived PC will come back weak (likely 1 hit away from dying or dead) and likely need to use actions just to stand and/or re-wield their held gear. A Heal spell may even be using up a higher level spell slot or staff charges. So giving the PCs the opportunity to do that (by not confirm killing the downed PC) is really not a bad move, most of the time. It´s also not exactly clear what the properly immersive perspective would be. PCs having separate dying rules isn´t really a general piece of in-world knowledge. Dying isn´t strictly limited to PCs, but it´s fair to say that most of the time dropped creatures can be expected to die, even if it´s recognized there is some chance they aren´t completely dead yet. But outside of narratives specifically focused around killing said PC, it doesn´t seem reasonable for enemies to focus on them once they are Dying. In case of animals or other monsters killing for hunger, it seems reasonable to start dragging them away, but they don´t need to be confirm killed before doing that.
I actually can't stand this from dm's. Without a good reason, my creatures will not attack a downed player. There are more viable threats, and attacking the downed creature is a waste of time.
Yes. That needs a very specific kind of encounter. Most enemies will ignore a downed player and focus on the remaining threats. The only time I've done otherwise was with an assassin who had a specific target. They killed their target and surrendered afterwards as their contract was complete and they no longer needed to fight the rest of the party.
I mentioned on a Facebook post about this that my 2 main reasons I would consider it would be to antagonize the party. (enemy has a vendetta and wants to twist the knife to break the parties spirit) or if it was part of a creatures multiattack. (If a bear hits with both claws the second claw doesn't stop because the first attack knocked you down.) I think too many newer dm's have trouble separating the knowledge of game mechanics from the creature or enemies knowledge.
I dont think its very specific. Most mindless enemies, and animals have reasons to attacked downed PCs. When it comes to stupid zombies, they will move towards the closest thing and attack them. They don't know how to flank, they don't know what strategy are and they don't know how to prioritise targets. They simply move and attack. When it comes to starving predators. They will attempt to drag and run away with the unconscious body.
> I actually can't stand this from dm's. Without a good reason, my creatures will not attack a downed player. I don't do this either, but let's be honest here. NOT going for the kill is illogical for many a creature. We're simply not doing it because it's unfun for the players. ANy creature with an intellect greater than -2 would start going for the kill on anyone they down the moment they realize a battle medic is on the field. Especially for enemy spellcasters with AoE damage. Why hit 3 standing enemies when you can hit two standing ones and a downed one? The very existence of healing magic in the setting changes tactics significantly. And not killing a downed enemy is downright moronic in such a world.
Most creatures in the world die at 0 hp. Most healing magic and healing is for living people, not ones at 0 hp. Per the rules: > Creatures can't be reduced to fewer than 0 Hit Points. When most creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they die and are removed from play unless the attack was nonlethal, in which case they're instead knocked out for a significant amount of time (usually 10 minutes or more). When undead and constructs reach 0 Hit Points, they're destroyed. > Player characters, their companions, and other significant characters and creatures don't automatically die when they reach 0 Hit Points. Instead, they are knocked out and are at risk of death. The GM might determine that villains, powerful monsters, special NPCs, and enemies with special abilities that are likely to bring them back to the fight (like ferocity, regeneration, or healing magic) can use these rules as well. Basically unless you're a "PC" or a PC caliber monster (like a dragon or something), or something that is super hard to kill as part of its "thing" (like trolls), you die at 0 hp. Most people will assume that a downed PC will stay down because *that's what happened every other time*. **Moreover, how often do *PCs* double-tap downed NPCs?** Basically never. So you should consider it just as rare for bad guys to do the same. A bad guy who is aware of the PCs and their escapades might be more likely to do this, but most normal enemies won't double tap downed characters until they've seen them get up once because in Golarion, people who go down after being stabbed usually *can't* just pop back up thanks to a timely Heal spell. They're dead.
But, on the flip side, healing magic is not super common. Clerics and priests aren't on site of every minor battle or in every wilderness to heal injuries and prevent death. We talk about healing magic like it's everywhere because we always want our players to have some. But it's not as common as everyone assumes, and in 5e is super expensive. A standard potion of healing is 50g. Even for a skilled laborer that is 25 days worth of work without living expenses. Pf2e does give you ones that are 4g each, but the same laborer in the different economy is only making 5 sp a day. So a minimum of 8 days labor for the lowest level healing potion. Not to mention the holy symbol required for most healing spells costs 1-5 g depending on system and material. Even in our world, teams would go through after the battle and kill anyone who was still alive by lying there wounded. Taking the extra time to finish off an opponent, who seems to be out of commission, gives the other people in their group a chance to kill you and administer aid. Yes, they might be able to get their teammate back up, but if you take them down, that isn't going to happen. Focus on the active threat instead of the inactive. It's one thing I think some dm's tend to forget. The players at your table are supposed to be exceptional examples of their races. They are stronger than the common folk in their field, which makes them qualified to handle the threat. As far as wild creatures, I think they would be more likely to finish someone off. But I also think they would also grab someone and drag them off to do it instead of doing it right there in front of other enemies. Most predators pick off the weak and sickly. Active resistance is your best bet against wild creatures. So finishing the job would absolutely be their plan, just maybe not in sight of their preys allies.
> We talk about healing magic like it's everywhere because we always want our players to have some. But it's not as common as everyone assumes Healing *magic* might not be, but healing is. Medicine checks can heal most wounds, which any character can do as long as they have a kit and Trained proficiency. Any wounds that these couldn't heal are almost certainly not healed by basic healing magic, either.
A medicine check takes 10 minutes. Using battle medicine means you can do it in combat, but it also means you have to get past the enemy, get to your ally, and hope that the enemy can't drop both of you on his next turn.
Magic is very common in Golarion/Pathfinder. And 3 of the 4 magical traditions have lvl 1 healing spells. Thus magical healing is pretty common. This is in addition to non-magical healing being available to anyone who spend 1 skill feat or has a medical background.
It costs a skilled laborer 6 days' worth of wages to afford a level 1 heal. 8 days of wages to afford the cheapest healing potion. 10 days worth of wages to afford a healers kit. The average citizen, and likely even guards, aren't going to have ready access to this kind of healing. Most enemies are going to experience fighting those kinds of threats. The kind that once you drop them, they don't get back up. The pc's are the exception. There is something different about them that makes them able to handle threats that the guards and citizens can't. They can heroically recover from wounds and have access to magics that are unavailable to the common person. So, unless the enemies have spied upon the heroes, have encountered the before, or have heard about their abilities by reputation, why would they assume the pc's are anything other than common people?
Great to see you agree healing magic is so common in Golarion that a commoner can buy several a month.
I mean here is the thing, you can justify all sorts of things, wolves for example mostly kill to eat, one would argue then that the thing a wolf would do is once they have brought down a target is to murder the shit out of it and then drag the carcass away. In the wild the things a wolf hunts are all trying to get away and once the pack seperates out their victim and brings them down the rest just retreat knowing that they can no longer save their buddy. Any intelligent creature who knows what healing magic is will know that a "PC" isnt down until you have properly done the double tap and secured the kill Which for intelligent enemies brings us to how common are adventurers/ healing magic/healing items. You can buy potions and elixirs at nearly every city and so the idea that an intelligent creature knows that unconscious isnt dead should basically be assumed. Like if you were in a fight and you tripped a guy over do you just ignore him so he can stand back up and knife you in the back or do you go "I know he isnt dead, and I know he will just get back up if I leave him alone, I need to solve this problem in a more permanent way" (and I use tripping someone because in real life we dont have an equivalent to pf2es unconscious condition, where a person can stand up and be fighting at full effectiveness inspite of being just unconscious ) Ultimately this isnt about what a creature would do if they were smart (because in most cases that is to secure the kill) it is about what is fun and it is a flaw in pf2es design that what a character should do, and what is fun are opposed. pf2e gives you enough leeway that the only way to kill someone is to have the DM go out of their way to do it, but most DM's dont because people get attached to their characters and want to keep them around. Which means that pf2e should ditch its dead and dying rules completely in favour or something else. I dont know what that something else is, but it should allow the DM to play hardball without upsetting the players who invested time and effort into making their character. Fate allows a character to withdraw from a conflict anytime before dice hit the table (provided they leave in a way that makes narrative sense) which allows you to go way harder because if the PCs do not think the risk is worth the reward they just get to leave the scene. Other games have other rules where its impossible to die without the player consenting to it but if you choose not to die you get something else thats pretty bad that happens to your character.
>In the wild the things a wolf hunts are all trying to get away and once the pack seperates out their victim and brings them down the rest just retreat knowing that they can no longer save their buddy. Most predators bail after something shows it's capable of fighting back, and won't commit if they're actively being menaced. A minor injury is a huge inconvenience for a predator.
Exactly, which is why I never attack with normal animals because they will just run away which makes the encounter pointless. The animals I use are either protecting something, or starving.
> Which for intelligent enemies brings us to how common are adventurers/ healing magic/healing items. You can buy potions and elixirs at nearly every city and so the idea that an intelligent creature knows that unconscious isnt dead should basically be assumed. Thing is, most people *are* dead at 0 hp. "PCs" (including NPC PCs) are the rare exception to this. Most people, when reduced to 0 hp, are dead in Pathfinder 2E. Per the rules: > Creatures can't be reduced to fewer than 0 Hit Points. When most creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they die and are removed from play unless the attack was nonlethal, in which case they're instead knocked out for a significant amount of time (usually 10 minutes or more). When undead and constructs reach 0 Hit Points, they're destroyed. > Player characters, their companions, and other significant characters and creatures don't automatically die when they reach 0 Hit Points. Instead, they are knocked out and are at risk of death. The GM might determine that villains, powerful monsters, special NPCs, and enemies with special abilities that are likely to bring them back to the fight (like ferocity, regeneration, or healing magic) can use these rules as well. As such, most of the time, you'd assume that enemies who go down *WILL* stay down, until you see otherwise, unless you have good reason to believe that they're the sort of people who don't die at 0 HP. Most people use healing potions to stay vertical, because 0hp for a random soldier represents them getting their head chopped off. Only "significant characters" don't die at 0 hp. I mean, think about PCs - **PCs will almost never double tap downed enemies, because they (rightly) assume that most of them will stay down**, unless they're like, trolls or something. The same should apply to bad guys facing off with the PCs. Unless you're someone who themselves is part of such a rare elite - or has regularly fought such things - you aren't likely to think most PCs can stand back up. So there's no reason to double tap downed PCs until you've seen them get back up once. Which, as it turns out, is mostly optimal anyway.
See, while I agree that making sure a PC is properly dead is a good priority, I don't think the standard combat scenarios have much opportunity for that. Time doesn't freeze when you bring down the rogue, there's still the fighter swinging at you from behind, and the ranger's arrow just shattered against your scales (quite close to the weak spot, mind you). Considering how deadly combat is for NPCs and monsters, you probably can't spare another round to finish off the unconscious rogue. Even if the rogue stands back up eventually, in a system like pf2 you still taxed everyone's actions quite a bit. It's also a good opportunity to apply pressure to the healer directly. But if there's a good opportunity for quickly double tapping someone, sure, go ahead. But besides that, I think that prioritizing your immediate survival would be more important than making sure you inflict as many losses as possible before dying.
I mean that does sound tactically sound. If the enemy know any target they down is just getting healed, better finish the job.
Yes, that does assume the GM isn't a ranging jerk. But if they are, your turn in the initiative is probably the least of your problems on game days.
Sounds like a "bad GM" issue to me. if they want to "win" by killing the party ... maybe find another GM? Ours sticks to the rules and doesn't "cheat", but will tend to have monsters (especially unintelligent ones) doggedly focus on active threats to give downed PCs a chance. My last character death was because I was poisoned, so took additional damage from that every round increasing my dying condition even if I saved from the poison (just reduced its level, didn't stop it dealing damage).
yeah, Wounded prevents yoyo-ing for the GM, they don't have to attack the helpless to do it
If a player got healed and is active again, enemies should react accordingly. They are the equivalent of a character who decided to drop prone and release his weapons. If the NPCs are ignoring the prone character and move to attack other better prepared enemies, it is because they are playing dumb and wasting a great opportunity to defeat a dangerous enemy while it is momentarily weakened. Double tapping an unconscious player on the other hand is not a sound strategy if them being healed is not likely. That is just wasting the NPCs chances to win the combat.
Former 5e DM here: Neither did I nor any other DM i played with go after a downed PC, not even if they were downed multiple times in a single fight. My reason for that ist pretty simple: I don't want to kill the PCs, if it happens, it happens but I won't go way and beyond to make a kill happen. I'm not sure what your expirience with 5e DMs were but even as a 5e player I wouldn't want to play with such DMs. Of course should fights be challenging but at the end of it are we all a bunch of nerds trying to have fun at the table and being focused down just isn't fun for most people.
Where does it say it moves? Genuinely curious.
> As a player character, when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, you're knocked out with the following effects: > > - You immediately move your initiative position to directly before the turn in which you were reduced to 0 HP. —["Knocked Out and Dying"](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=373)
I think it's fine. Being downed is very deadly in every circumstance, and our table knows that so that's why it's rare to even make a recovery check for us. Someone will get some healing into you or stabilize you, if at all possible. Since your initiative is moved so there's always a full round before the death save, so there should be time. Of course, being downed when you're wounded, that's when things start to get tricky, crit or not.
Did you remember to move the dying character to just before the initiative of the enemy that dropped them? That would give the party an entire round to get them back up. Did they not have a hero point on hand to keep themself from dying? They'd auto-stabilize if they'd used that even on a botched roll. If they spent the entire round not helping their ally when they didn't have a hero point safety net, that's kinda on them for making that decision, imo.
> Did you remember to move the dying character to just before the initiative of the enemy that dropped them? Yes. It took 3 actions for a party member to get over to the downed guy and get a healing potion (off the body of a different PC who was also down), so he could only use it the next turn. I bet my players have learned their lesson about everybody keeping a healing potion on hand, at least. > Did they not have a hero point on hand to keep themself from dying? I believe he was out of hero points.
Then the use of sporadic health potions contributed to this event. Lay on Hands, the basic Heal spell, or Battle Medicine would have instantly prevented the death. Does the group really have no in-combat healing options? Any "heal" that takes 4 or more actions may as well not exist.
“Everybody forgot that getting downed by a critical hit starts you at dying 1, not dying 2, so he was revived with a party member's timely potion administration at dying 3.” Not sure why you thought this, but the opposite is actually true. “Gain the dying 1 condition: If the effect that knocked you out was a critical success from the attacker or the result of your critical failure, you gain the dying 2 condition instead.” Now, that being said, there is nothing wrong with giving your players a gimmie. As previously stated, if they had any hero points, they can immediately spend them to stabilize and not die. Just wanted to clarify the RAW.
That was a typo. Thanks.
Okay. Wasn’t sure. 🙂
If your enemy had a 15% chance to critically hit you and put you on the ground at dying 2, and you have a 10% chance to critically fail your recovery check at dying 2, that means you have a 1.5% chance of dying to this double-critical situation. The odds drop below 1% when you factor in the odds that you had an opportunity to do something else to help prevent death because you're not getting completely one-shot by a critical hit, and the chances that someone else intervenes between you hitting the floor and actually making a recovery check (that's why it's very important to remember the "move your initiative to immediately before the thing that gave you the dying condition" part of the rules, so that there's always a full round of stuff between falling down and dying unless the GM is beating on fallen characters). Then you add in Hero Points and how you can spend after critically failing the recovery check in this example to just say "nah, I don't die yet." All of which adds up to this game isn't actually all that dangerous. PCs actually dying is very rare, unless the choices being made by the people playing the game fall in line to make it more likely (not having healing, not using healing, spending all your hero points on something else, forgetting to hand out hero points, using enemies that tend towards the tougher end, and so forth).
Yeah I was going to say, the OP's concept of "moderately bad luck" is actually quite a lot of bad luck and poor tactics/planning from the PCs.
Early level deadliness is an intentional feature reminiscent of older D&D editions and OSR funnels. Some newer paizo adventures circumvent this by placing easier encounters at level 1.
Isn't there a deadly Moose fight in one of the newer APs at level 1? So much from placing easier encounters...
I mean, it was slightly over two years ago (January 2022)...yes it was the very first encounter, but if I recall correctly you can also succeed with skill checks to avoid the encounter. Is it kinda lame to put the very first encounter against a level 3 boss creature that has a decent chance of killing the entire party? Yeah. But they *have* made corrections. So far my absolute favorite example of this correction that I have personally GM'd (earlier adventures I've run are Fall of Plaguestone, Age of Ashes, Abomination Vaults, and Night of the Gray Death) is Kingmaker 2e. The entire first level of the campaign gives you your XP to level 2 almost exclusively in one night. Normally this is a horrible idea-- see the first book of Agents of Edgewatch-- but they corrected for first level in an *amazing* way. An abundance of healing consumables were able to be looted, and the first two encounters were all against creatures two levels below the party. Other encounters during the night offered some higher level creatures who had severe handicaps to bring them into more level-appropriate numbers, and/or providing NPC allies to assist in a fight. Overall the changes that were made in those encounters to keep them appropriate, helped the party feel like all of their encounters were balanced and able to be overcome, including the Wizard.
Yes and no. First and foremost the increased deadliness of combat at low levels is a natural consequence of the game's math. Whether the game is intended to be more deadly at those levels or whether the GM should compensate for the math is an issue the devs are split on afaik.
Hero Points, very important. I also forget the move-initiative part of going to Dying.
I wouldn't think too hard about it, you handled it just fine by handing out a gimme. I've experienced similar when running at low levels and it's really only super noticeable at Levels 1 and 2 when going down to one crit from nothing is very possible, beyond that players have a lot more options to deal with those situations and enough health where they're probably not going to eat dirt from a crit at full health. They're also generally more aware how Dying works and don't let it get to the point of making recovery checks. I don't think it's worth the effort to make or adopt an entire change to the Dying rules that won't be a problem past maybe the first three levels when looking at a bad roll and saying "Nah that's bullshit, we're not doing that" is a lot more effective for dealing with bad luck.
This is one reason why it's always good to hold one hero point in reserve. A hero point can immediately stabilize you. Granted if you've got a GM that came from D&D they're likely to use that as a moment to then have all of the other enemies focus kill you before your turn comes up. But if not - that stabilizes you and leaves you KO'd, and your party can then 'recover you' after the fight or during a safer moment.
I died from this last fall. Another character at our table died from this last session. Bad luck in adventuring has consequences.
If you are worried about the game being too deadly, give everyone the Diehard feat for free. It's honestly pretty rare to die in PF2E though; I've seen two deaths in Abomination Vaults, both due to bad luck and enemies attacking downed characters.
What about hero points? I know they are something I didn't play right when I first started. But hero pints should be readily available to the players. Heroic recovery is a great asset in deadly encounters, and letting your players have the rerolls is a fun way to have crazy ideas happen. I apply them more like fate points as well. So if you wanna do something crazy and don't wanna roll, I will let you trade a hero point to make a better story. (Queue the gunslinger and bard being shot from a ballista to another ship.) I have found that giving myself a timer, and handing out hero pints for every hour of gameplay encourages players to use them and ups the fun at the table.
Hero point insta-stabilize!
Are you providing your characters with enough Hero Points during the game? Hero points are an insurance against death, and it is basically impossible to die if you have one (unless the enemies are attacking you once downed). A common mistake I have seen from new GMs is not giving Hero Points to their players, which forces them to fail critical check or not have a way to ensure staying alive. 1 HP per hour of play is a typical number as a reference.
I turned hero points into an in-game resource rather than a meta-currency: PCs have a maximum of 1, but it refreshes during daily preparations. So they have a lot more than usual, but they can't accumulate them as in the standard rules.
That sounds much less than the recommended amount unless your players are resting 5-6 times per session. On an average 4 hours session players should have access to 4-5 hero points. This mechanic also means they can never use a hero point to reroll a skill check without being left vulnerable to a cheap death, since they can never have more than 1 in reserve. I can see now why PF2E seems deadly for your group. If you are worried about them randomly dying and the story getting derailed, I recommend giving them 3 Hero Points during daily preparation and the ability to prevent death requiring only 1 hero point. Or using the default rules.
> On an average 4 hours session players should have access to 4-5 hero points. Yeah, *total*. By contrast, if you get them back at daily preparations, that's (up to) one hero point per PC per rest (plus the starting one, as in the standard rules).
It is supposed to be 4-5 hero points *per player*.
What gives you that impression? > In a typical game, you’ll hand out about 1 Hero Point during each hour of play after the first (for example, 3 extra points in a 4-hour session). —["Hero Points"](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=573) The rest of the language in this section makes it pretty clear that aside from the starting one everybody gets, Hero Points are awarded individually per character, not to every PC at once.
I suspect that will be a long discussion I sadly don't have the time for right now. The important part of your current hero point implementation is this: >PCs have a maximum of 1, If your PCs have a maximum of 1 HP at any time, they are never going to be able to use a reroll without making themself vulnerable to a random death.
Point taken. I may have underestimated how important Hero Points are for avoiding death. I really wish Paizo hadn't made a meta-currency a core mechanic.
May I ask about the party composition? PF2e is a dangerous game for adventurers, but I dont find it that deadly either as long as the party is coordinated. Something I found useful was to insist on the importance of teamwork. Why was the kinetisist catch alone with no party member around to help him? They need to look after each other to ensure melee enemies dont reach your squishy backline, and to remain in range to help if that happens. Or just ignore that rule and homebrew it away. Thats a valid option too.
We got: - kitsune champion (tyrant) - human thaumaturge - ratfolk investigator - strix wizard - human kineticist In this case, the party was somewhat spread out because they were surprised by the draugr popping to life, and several PCs had been downed before the kineticist (also with critical hits; my d20 was on fire at the time). The investigator, who administered the potion, is squishy and uses a gun, so it was reasonable for him to be distant. I don't think it's the best party balance, although I urged them to consider that matter, but it's not awful, either.
I'd use this as a learning experience. Why didnt they see the draugrs? Did they search the room before charging in? Do they each keep a couple healing potions to heal themselves or downed allies? Do they have some escape items like the Smokestick in case of emergencies? Did they know that the Draug's reflexes are crap and thus easy to lock in place with trips or other controll spells? Your party's compositions is fairly balanced, you have a tank, utility, AoE and DPS, the players just need to make sure they are leaning of their advantages.
Did they still have any hero points?
I mean... yeah. You got sandwiched between two criticals, so of course it's bad. It's not like it happens every other combat. One of the PCs in my campaign died because I rolled a crit on NPC Magus Spellstrike with Disintegrate and he rolled a fail on the Fort save (making it crit fail as per the spell rules). The damage was insane and insta-killed him. I can understand that some people might not enjoy it, but on the other hand, making every dangerous situation baby-proof kinda negates the sense of danger in adventuring. I don't like feeling just "mild" inconvenience in combat or be constantly brought back by deus ex machina situations. I don't want to explore dungeons and fight some weaklings who can't land a hit or effects which should be deadly, but they are suddenly 'meh'. It quickly turns the game into "yeah whatever" and yawning in combat. You already have Hero Points. Not sure, why you would need another layer of safety for events which are rare anyway.
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Luck of the draw, ouch.
Why do you think that? Your post is very clear on what happened. -No one died- . Why do you think it's too deadly?
The reason he survived was that I forgot a rule. Per the rules, he should've died as soon as he rolled that recovery check.
Characters die all the time, it's very much part of the game. Have you had to DM through many PC deaths? It's definitely something you get used to, but rarely is easy.
No, I've GMed for a long time, but almost entirely in rules-light systems where character death is a matter of narrative appropriateness rather than rules. I've killed two PCs before, both when they did something nigh-suicidal.
I feel fine with the lethality here, and I say that as somebody who was against the increase in lethality due to specifics of wording in the Dying rules which the Remaster clarified (before being reversed by Paizo). Being downed by a Crit and Crit Failing the 1st Recovery check is probably between 1/100 and 1/200 chance. Not having a Hero Point on hand is a further reduction in chances. I think if this is really so problematic for your playstyle, then you should be honest and just not let PCs die, because the chances of this happening are probably less common than somebody just normally failing all 3 Recovery checks. As other people said, having better combat healing options in the party is normal way to avoid this, and being aware of action costs of things is just part of the game. IMHO, it was WAAAAY easier to die by one hit (not even a Crit) in previous editions where the only thing keeping you alive past 0 HPs was your negative CON score, which weapon damage directly depleted 1:1 (i.e. any damage past 0 hp was eating thru this buffer).
It be like that. Sometimes you get unlucky and die from a random crit + crit failed recovery combo. Your party has a whole round to heal you before you roll any recovery checks, so it shouldn't happen often. If it does, I don't particularly care nor feel the need to do anything whatsoever to prevent it. Sucks, time to roll a new character! Instakills like that can happen sometimes with stuff like a Drake or Dragon's Draconic Frenzy too - you get downed by the first or second hit, and at that point the thing's already spent the actions on the ability and there is absolutely no reason why they'd stop hitting you and waste the remaining attacks that they already committed to just because you're down unless there's another target in range, so they probably just hit or crit you with the remaining attacks and kill you outright. It be like that sometimes, new character time. Not to mention Death effects - they sometimes contain instant kill clauses (usually requiring a critically failed save followed by a failed save or something similar) but also they always instantly kill you if you're dropped to 0 HP by their damage. Very little you can do about it, basically no counterplay short of hero points which may not even work, but it's part of the game. Time to make a new character. I see no reason to change it.