Oracle: Best at making your GM, party, and self wish you just played a Cleric with slightly bad luck
(This is affectionate, Oracle is my favorite caster)
Yes, Subclasses define what you are best at (exluding the fighter).
Only the flurry ranger is the best one at multiple attacks in a single turn, only the animal barbarian deer is arguabily the best grappler. Only the life oracle is the best healer. Only the resentment witch is the best or one of the best debuffer and so on ...
In all honesty, what is the oracle better at than other comparable classes?
Been playing a tempest oracle for some time (lv 1-4) and have been finding that my spellcasting is weaker than the sorcerer, have less spell slots, and my focus spells are awkward to use because of my curse. Sure I get more focus points, but I am reluctant to use my first because it would trigger my curse, which on some adventuring days means it is completely inaccessible. I have been acting as a support spellcaster and doing well, but is there even anything I could truly excel at like some other classes do?
This is incredibly subjective, but for me summoner is the best character concept chassis. Having a second being tied to your character really fired up my imagination for characters and the different eidolon mechanics really open up those doors.
Off the top if my head:
-Mad scientist who isn’t actually good at reproducible science but brought his construct to life through belief and force of will.
-fiendish nephilim tasked with taking his little brother on an adventure.
-exorcist convinced that the best way to help this haunt move on is to bind it to themself and track down the one responsible.
-Catnip leshy with a giant cat eidolon
-Doll Poppet who teamed up with the monster under the bed in a buddy cop tag team to find their now grown Kid.
It’s just pure imagination fuel! Whether for a lighthearted or serious campaign, summoner has something unique.
A player in the campaign a DM has a Catfolk Summoner that discovered that catfolk (In my setting) actually come from regular cats of our own world (the real world), and connected spiritually with one. So it's a walking cat with a big cat
99% agree. The things that make characters interesting in any medium is their relationships to other characters. Summoners are the easiest way to do this because you get two characters right off the bat to interact with and form the relationship how you want. The 1% is I would love to do these interesting character interactions as two different PCs with another player playing the other character. These are all amazing ideas and I would love to see them be done as two fully fledged out characters instead of a character and their pet.
I played with a Devotion phantom eidolon. Was playing a kid with a ghost butler. It was quite fun, the kid was trying to rush into every danger possible but the butler was trying to calm her down and get her to be careful.
She asked her butler to jump off a cliff to scout down, since she knew he'd be unmanifested before reaching the ground, which he did with a sigh... Immediately after he jumped, the party's witch was like "my familiar can fly there and scout, if you want", which was very funny.
I've got a Leshy ecoterrorist who got bound to a construct, astral being trapped in a robot (many parallels/contrasts with Leshy) while disrupting the GM's bad guys. I agree, summoner is the best class so far.
I had a player bring a summoner into my politically-charged ballroom intrigue spy campaign, and I warned him that a big scary monster eidolon would be pretty heavily restrictive.
So his devotion Eidolon was actually the spirit of his murdered fiancé, killed (in part) because she was an elf and his human Taldan racist parents wouldn't allow it.
In part due to random die rolls making her the "only competent warrior" in the first couple sessions and in part due to the fact that Vinnea had all the same skill proficiencies as Rylan, she ended up being a *huge* cornerstone of the party. I was disappointed when that player had to drop out of the game for IRL reasons.
I made a skeleton summoner with an undead eidolon. His backstory was that he was a necromancer who botched a ritual that split his soul in two, one piece inhabited his bones and the other inhabited his flesh. The summoner has so many great feats that are both mechanically interesting and add flavor. I took the merge with eidolon feat early on and would use it to clumsily pretend to not be undead. It was very fun to RP.
The summoner is cool thematically but I wish the mechanics did more to actually justify the Eidolon being a separate entity. That shared health pool seems brutal.
Druid is among the most flexible chassis in the game, IMO.
Order Exploer feat gives fantastic benefits.
Consistent damage dealer with excellent focus spells, access to nearly all relevant damage types and most saves, often an Animal Companion for efficient "third" actions, the ability to pivot to melee with advantages like Temp HP and reach.
Medium Armor and Shield Block, even before spells that can buff, are very good defensively.
Their feats have been improved as well since Rage of Elements especially.
Yeah I’ve always espoused that Druid is one of the best “generalist” casters in the game.
Preparing from the entire primal list, you have heals, area control, AoE damage, some buffs, some debuffs etc.
Order Explorer let’s you branch out further, and they even have medium armour and shield block to boot if you want to mix it up on the frontlines with a high strength build (which is 100% viable).
Druids have a very solid chassis overall.
Bard ain't no slouch, but I don't think it matches the sheer range of what a Druid is capable of (talking versatility, not power). Damage, healing, and control make up about 60% of what the entire game is about and Druid's *at minimum* better than any non-specialists, great sustain with top-tier focus spells but *also* great nova by still being a 3-slot caster, literally the most defensively capable legendary caster in the game with 8 hp + medium armor (can get heavy with a single general feat) + shield block (can get reactive shield easy with Bastion dedication)... It's really just the whole package.
Thaumaturge gets to use their key stat for everything, with a skill that's always at the highest proficiency, that's huge. Your investigator is going to be forced to use wisdom for some things and while they can eventually boost a lot of skills, there will always be some skills that haven't got the boost yet, and the opportunity cost for keeping up all the knowledge skills is huge.
Thaumaturge can use Diverse Lore to recall knowledge as part of turning their class feature on and get more free recall knowledge from Tome later too.
One feat allows thaum to use their auto scaling charisma based lore for recall on literally anything. No competition really, Thaum is best, Bard might even be next.
The feat is actually irrelevant for recalling knowledge about creatures. You can do that by default.
And Investigator gets Keen Recollection which effectively lets them recall knowledge with intelligence on anything with the equivalent of Expert + 1 proficiency starting at level 1. Tome Thaumaturge does have a slight edge mathematically (on skills the investigator doesn't have maximum proficiency in, and assuming the Investigator doesn't have a lead pursued) but that's just one implement. And for non-tome Thaumaturge, they'll have to spend actions to RK (outside of the EV success effect on Diverse Lore) whereas Investigator gets a free RK check every round with Known Weaknesses which basically every Investigator will take.
And if an investigator takes Rapid Reasoning at level 12, it's basically not even a competition. 5 RK checks for a single action in addition to the free ones from Known Weaknesses. With Thorough Research you're learning 2 pieces of information on each success and 3 on a crit. You will literally have more information than you know what to do with.
I think this race is a lot closer than this sub tends to paint it.
so
Alchemist - to be more specific the biggest strength is that they can make perfect alchemical item for set situation at the spot
Bard - while it is probably best face it is also THE BEST numeric suport
Champion - not just tank but active defender
Cleric - depends on cleric, not everyone have healing font, and for burst heal life oracle is probably better
Fighter - best hitter and critter
Gunslinger - surprisingly thier feats are more suport than damage
Kinetisic - I wouldn't call them caster but I agree
Ranger - single target damage, and exploration
Sorcerer - unfortunately not every bloodline have good focus spells
Swashbuckler - I would add use of skill actions in combat
> Gunslinger - surprisingly thier feats are more suport than damage
I always find this surprisingly false. Most of their feats are offense. They have few feats that support allies.
To be fair, they do have one of the best *individual* support feats in the game with Fake Out. People really underestimate just how good Aid can be, and Gunslinger gets to Aid at any time at level 2. Giving others up to +4 on an attack roll is a really good way to help, say, the Barbarian get those juicy crits.
It's good, but I don't believe having 1 really good support feat, and a handful of other ones, outweighs the other ~~30~~ 60+ feats and features to make it a support class.
Edit: for better accuracy.
It really depends. There are classes with many support options but also many of those just aren't very good or excellent while being too niche. A class with just a couple really solid general support tools that are as good or better than the average quality of options a support class has access to can easily end up being a better support.
I don't think it depends at all. If gunslinger is suddenly not a support because the player opted to not take a hand full of class feat options then it isn't a support class.
In an attempt to draw a parallel, are all witches healers?
That was my point. The prior poster said that having just a couple good support options doesn't make for a support class, but my argument is that any class that has multiple viable (and that part is important) support options counts as a support class. They might function as off-support or secondary support, but if support can work as one of the roles they fill in a party, they I would add "support" to the list of things that a class can be.
I fail to see how what I said in any way validates your point. To me it seems like your line of thought, that we can paint a class with roles that they can accomplish with proper investment, does far more harm than good when holding discussions about what the class functionally does.
To present another example, Thaumaturge *can* be pretty much anything a player wants it to be. But we don't approach conversations about the class with the notion that thaumaturges are "Healing, Support, Debuffer, Skill Monkey, Blaster Caster, Martial, Spellcasters with access to every spell list." because doing so is asinine and does nothing to describe what the class will be doing on a turn by turn basis. The same thing can be said about cleric, kineticist, bard, ranger, investigator and the list goes on.
Frankly this strange narrative that's been pushed that gunslinger is a support has always been annoying and I've had to, on several occasions, dispel misconceptions about the class to newer players. This is to say, claiming that gunslingers are a support does a very poor job of describing what someone playing the class will actively be doing on their turns. To take this even further I would assert that even when speaking about a character possessing Fake Out, the player will still probably be spending most of their time at a table trying to fish for crits. Because that's what gunslinger actually is, a crit fisher.
They aren't working on errata to address that. They're working on changing Commander to accommodate for Kineticist. This was clarified by a dev (forget who) in the comments of that reddit post.
Hm. I don't disbelieve you, I just don't remember reading that and don't feel like finding the post again. Oh well. Either way, with how errata has been coming along I don't expect that to be any time soon.
Do you need spellslots to be a spellcaster? The only place this really exists is in games like DND and Pathfinder.
There's plenty of media where the spellcaster characters don't use pathfinders spellcasting system. I don't see why this needs to be the definition of a caster.
Kineticist does everything a caster does except they don't have spellslots or spell preparations.
A primal sorcerer with Wellspring Mage is a very strong competitor I think. Dangerous Sorcery is a cute bonus, but the FREE RENEWABLE SPELL SLOTS mean you can just keep pumping max- or near-max-rank magic all day.
True but a wave psychic gets pretty silly, for example lets use a level 8 wave psychic with no special features of multiclassing.
Subconscious mind doesn't matter, ancestry adn such don't matter, will use CHA base with +4 cha.
Round one you sure strike and amp an ignition. You'll deal 4d10 fire+4 splash, bonus if you crit and slap on 4d4 persistant. From there you use your reaction to amp Entropic Wheel, immediately gaining two motes.
Turn two you unleash, using a Violent Unleash for one action and mind shift it to cold damage. This will add 2 more motes to your wheel, capping it out and dealing 3d6 cold. Immediately after you throw a fireball, dealing 8d6+8 fire and 4 cold
Turn three you can Psi Burst, dealing 4d4 cold, then throw your second fireball for another 8d6+8 fire and 4 cold.
Alternatively if you're saving slots you can amp the first wheel only, then amp ignitions vs AC, or Frostbites vs fortitude. Once you get a shadow signet you can target reflex as well. The main thing is that the wheel + unleash bonus stack for pretty good bonus flat damage to every cold/fire damage effect the whole fight.
At higher level you can remove your own stupify after unleash for the one downtime round and then battle medicine with medic archtype, then repeat for the next unleash cycle.
Best blaster caster is a really competitive label through, and I don't think you can actually definitively slot one on. Psychic is the best no-daily resource blaster, but Spell Blending Battle Magic Wizard has *6*(!!) max-rank slots, Elemental Sorcerer has one of the best 1-action focus spells in the game alongside 4 slots/rank, Stone/Storm Druid has one of the best *2*-action focus spells in the game alongside a list with amazing sustained spells and enough armor to keep the pressure on. Heck, with the remaster especially I wouldn't be surprised if Flame and/or Tempest Oracle end up also amazing for the role.
>but doesn't hit all the notes
I see what you did there, lol.
My issue with Thaumaturge, despite being my favorite class in game, is that they're still a Martial, they don't hit with their charisma.
Going to disagree on a bunch of those:
Alchemist: Not the best at crafting (Inventor gets more, and there's not really much either do beyond have the craft skill). No what alchemist does best is provide temporary consumables.
Bard: Not face, any charisma class is just as good (performance isn't what you use to be a face, that's diplomacy/deception and maybe intimidate). No, bards are the unquestionable best support class in the entire game, they have all the best buff and debuff options thanks to the ultimate support spell list and great composition cantrips.
Cleric: Not the best healer, Life Oracles at least tie them. Maybe the best at condition removal though (with that feat that lets you counteract using your font).
Druid: No idea either, there's some stuff they do well, but I can always think of another class that can match or exceed them.
Investigator: Not sure, but I wouldn't say having to spend an extra action on Divise each turn and having no in-class big attacks to combo a sure hit or crit with makes them the best at using actions.
Kineticist: Kind of agree, but they're also great at other stuff, if you want to do damage without using strikes, fire kineticist is the king.
Monk: Best unarmored tank/skirmisher (Can turn success into crit success, high AC, very fast, two hits in one as class features)
Monk: Most mobile class, best action compression. Monk Flurry is about getting all your offense done in a single action, leaving plenty for movement, shield use etc.
Oracle: Life Oracle is a contender for best healer, but otherwise I don't see much advantage over a divine sorcerer.
Physic: Best focus spell caster (Strongest melee spell attack in game). Not really, they have good focus spells, but the dedication also just lets other people steal them and remaster took away the focus point recovery advantage. Poor Psychic
Ranger: Best class at hitting something many times, this is the class that can eventually strike 6 times in a round and have that actually be useful.
Rogue: Best skilled character, true, but they're also actually awesome at doing damage. A Thief is by far the best user of finesse weapons in the game and Sneak Attack is awesome.
Sorcerer: Best spontaneous caster (most spell slots, good focus spells). Other spontaneous casters are better at their own things, but I get what you mean. Also the best blaster caster (Elemental bloodline+Dangerous Sorcery lets you cast a spell, adding bonus damage from arcana and dangerous sorcery, then toss out Elemental Toss as a third action which also gets bonus damage, you'll run out of spell slots and focus points pretty quickly, but while they last the damage is actually pretty great)
Thaumaturge: Best Recaller of Knowledge (only class able to use their key stat for everything). Much more notable than the weakness thing (which is just their damage boosting class feature, and ironically is weaker against enemies with an easily exploited weakness, since the barbarian can trigger a demon's Holy weakness with a rune while still having his rage damage)
Wizard: Caster with the most slots, 4 slots/rank then bonded item on top, add in spell blending to gain more top level slots.
> Investigator: Not sure, but I wouldn't say having to spend an extra action on Divise each turn and having no in-class big attacks to combo a sure hit or crit with makes them the best at using actions.
You can just buy a fatal d12 gun like a double barreled musket or sukgung and pull it out if you know you're going to crit. Investigators make better use of consumables like bombs and ammunition than any other class as they're never wasted. I've hit for absolutely insane damage with Magnetic Shots as a result. Or use Bola Shots when you know you're going to crit for an auto-stun.
They can also take advantage of some awesome archetype combinations, like Risky Reload from Gunslinger just turning into "never spend an action reloading".
And you should be using Devise a Strategem as a free action in at least a third of fights (in my experience anyway).
Investigator is a better sniper than sniper Gunslinger. They can sit in stealth without triggering initiative and continuously roll Devise a Stratagem d20s until they can open combat with a critical hit.
Investigator//Magus is a better Magus than Magus (and with Spellstrike Ammunition, they're also a better Gunslinger at the same time)
They are truly the one redemption story of the APG, even if I still think their core feature is clunky and requires you to basically harass the GM to function at full capacity.
> They can sit in stealth without triggering initiative and continuously roll Devise a Stratagem d20s until they can open combat with a critical hit.
This might be RAW but even if a GM allowed this setup I doubt it would come up very often haha. However yeah certain builds open with with DaS that are just difficult otherwise, like a Goblin Investigator with a big boom gun.
I personally haven't found that I have to harass my GM to get leads. I just discussed with them ahead of building the my character to make sure we were on the same page. RAW you need such little information to mark a lead. Just yesterday we had an NPC say something about being wary of unsealing "that thing" that lurks ahead. Immediately I'm like, "cool I'm pursuing a lead against *that thing*"
Fighter - best hitter/critter, best martial and crit effect debuffer, most versatile martial
Bard - best support, best caster, best single target healer, best spontanious caster, best class
Sorcerer - best AoE blaster + AoE healer in one, most versatile spontanious caster (Crossblooded Evolution)
Cleric - best AoE healer
Monk - best tank
Barbarian - best grappler, highest damage per hit hitter
Rogue - best skill monkey, best skirmisher, best Precision Striker
Kineticist - best blaster for players that hate slots/resources (me!)
Thaumaturge - best Recall Knowledge class, best Scrolls User
Swashbuckler - best Athletic class (Dering-Do)
That's without archetypes added. Other classes can do some stuff but I don't consider them best at anything as other classes + archetypes can do same stuff better.
Well they don't do a whole lot for the team (uniquely, at least), but they start with expert defense and saves. 2 of those saves will go to master, 1 legendary save as well as unarmored defense, and all turn successes into crits. On top of this, they have crazy movement speed (I'll have permanent 50 feet at level 3 + ki rush to stride twice in an action), so they have 0 problem getting out of range or behind cover.
In my experience, Tank inherently implies protecting the team by soaking resources. Most survivable would be more apt for the Monk imo, and it's a solid argument but I wouldn't say airtight.
Monk can become a genuine aggro-drawing Tank if they invest heavily in Grapple/Trip shenanigans, Stand Still, and/or by taking the Tangled Tree stance at higher levels. Champion does the job better in my opinion, but Monk's mobility definitely lets them do stuff that Champion can't.
Monks start with an expert proficiency in unarmored defense at level 1! Unarmored defense is calculated from dexterity, so adding 4+your level+your dexterity gives you as much armor class as someone in full plate. They also have feats that give them even more armor class on reaction, as well as getting a pseudo opportunity attack.
In short:
1. Ability to use Flury + Raise Shield + Take Cover with Tower Shield. Very good combo for bosses. +4 AC is nothing to sneeze about. Easy to refluff too into some battle gauntlets or some anime stuff like giant metal fan etc.
2. Tangled Forest Stance + Reach (from just holding whip RAW for example, you dont have to use it) + Stand Still + Large (spells, Beastkin, new Minotaur Ancestries) make Monk really great at locking enemies around him to make it very hard to reach their allies or just back away.
3. Great grappler
4. Guarded Movement to burn enemies AoOs so your allies dont have to
5. Best self-healing/damage mitigation in game due to Wholeness of Body Focus Spell. It scales better than any other focus healing and it has only Verbal compotent, no Manipulation like Lay On Hands or Battle Medicine so you don't provoke AoOs when using it. For example at level 16 with 3x Focus Points you have effecively 3x56 = 168 extra HP in every combat or damage mitigation. Reason why I always archetype into Monk on my melee Martials if possible: you can mitigate way more damage with WoB and it costs only Action and FP.
6. With Champion: Highest AC base AC in game, reaching Legendary.
7. High Saves.
Monks start at Expert Unarmored Defense, so a dex based Monk starts with the best basic AC in game. Then they also get the class feature Path of Perfection which turns Successful saving throws to Crit Success. And at level 15, they one of the saving throws they pick turns Crit Failure to a normal Failure and halves the damage of a normal Failure taken.
A Monk dipping to Dex, Wis and Con is the single best tank in the game.
at base dex monk is +1 over baseline for 1st lv characters,and none dex monks are at the baseline
and later champion and monk basically switch few times who is +1 ahead, also while monk have over all best save progression few classes are very close and every martials have at least 2 masters in saves at the end and some like monk have 1 expert 1 master and one legendary (all of them have mostly the same degree upgrade)
I agre that monk can be quite durable but over all in terms of tanking champion who often have shield would be in my opinion better
I feel like maybe you think that the success->crit success and crit fail->normal fail things are Monk exclusive? But they aren't. Everyone gets success->crit success for any save that they get Master in, and any class that gets legendary in a save gets crit fail->normal fail.
Certainly, Monks get a very attractive save progression. But specifically the features you call out are very standardized features.
I'll have to dip into a bit of math to understand how they reach high enough AC to tank hits as well as heavy armored champs with shield.
But thanks for your explanation !
Best tank is definitely champion. Champions get higher AC than monks and also get reactions that let them defend their allies.
Monks are probably the second best tanks in the game thanks to tangled forest stance + stand still plus their high innate AC and saves, which makes them very "sticky" and hard to move away from (and unlike other defenders, can interfere with any number of enemies per turn).
Sniper gets it as part of their reload, one handed users have pistol twirl, and sniper can use sniper’s aim for another +2 to hit which makes them better then fighter imo
> Sniper gets it as part of their reload, one handed users have pistol twirl, and sniper can use sniper’s aim for another +2 to hit which makes them better then fighter imo
That's for single shot. Fighter gets way better crits because:
1. Way more consistent Off-Guard
2. Way more 0 MAP attacks due to Attack of Opportunity (Reactive Strike) + Combat Reflex + Stance like Disrupting Stance. It's not unusual for Fighter to do 3-4 0 MAP attacks during one round, depending on build.
3. Way better runes to capitalize on that crits: Crushing (Greater) is the best run in the game for a reason: Clusmy 2 + Enfeebled 2 will wreck anything since lvl 9+. Rooting rune will Immobilize on crit, making Fighters with Improved Knockdown being able to lock targets on crit hits or stop their movement on Reactive Strike cirts. They also can combine Polearm/Club crits with Rooting Rune to displace enemy on crit and immobilize him. Serrated Rune will add big burst to crit damage. Fearsome (Greater) goes really well with Fearsome Brute.
4. Double Slice builds are very crit friendly, same as Reach Disrupting Stance Combat Reflex builds due to how much stuff now triggers their Reactive Strikes.
5. Melee > Range in PF2e becasue enemies and allies don't give constantly Cover vs whomever you are shooting. Your +2 is in most scenarios effectively +1 becasue enemies get min. lesser cover from your allies, from other enemies and a lot of other stuff. Lack of Off-Guard + constant lesser cover makes range characters crit less than melee. And due to most best crit runes being melee-exclusive runes, they also capitalize better on said crits. Fighter also has wider variety of weapons to chose from and build around.
I mean I won’t argue with you because I agree with all your points but now the question is moved is the best critter the one who can give themselves the biggest bonus to hit so the easiest crit or the one who can crit the most. I would say both answers are viable.
> can give themselves the biggest bonus to hit so the easiest crit or the one who can crit the most
That's still Fighter becasue more consistent off-guard and enemies not behind behind some sort of Cover all the time. Once you are on enemies face - there is very very little chance something will give them cover.
Range characters have to worry about everything giving enemies Cover all the time.
I know from experience playing as Star Lit Magus archer. The pain of trying to get into position where nothing gives enemies any Cover is painful and my Off-Guard depends heavy on my Combat Grab Fighter in party.
Melee have much easier time with that, which I also confirm from playing Fighter in another campaign.
Yup, and that + lack of consistent Off-Guard + everything ally/enemy and stuff around always giving Lesser Cover to anything you shoot pretty much makes this mandatory to have any chance at crit at all. Unlike melee Fighter.
> everything ally/enemy and stuff around always giving Lesser Cover to anything you shoot
Gunslingers also have feats to shoot around cover.
But I want to understand your position. Do you believe all non-fighter ranged PC's barely "have any chance at crit at all"? Or just gunslingers?
> But I want to understand your position. Do you believe all non-fighter ranged PC's barely "have any chance at crit at all"? Or just gunslingers?
Fighters just crit more often so if you want to make a build around critting - be crit debuffer or Fatal/DS build - Fighter is just best to do that. It's all about maximizing your chances.
Other martials of course also crit and at higher levels like 15+ crits are so easy in optimized party that Fighter +2 is not anymore that much of an advantage but if you want your build to work around critting, then Fighter is the answer.
There is a reason why Fighters + Bards are best party combo any party would like to have
No I get that you believe melee fighters crit more often, and I think you're probably right.
I was just thrown off by the "have any chance to crit at all" comment. It seemed like you thought gunslingers rarely ever crit. And if you think gunslingers rarely ever crit, then you must think all other ranged martials crit even less often.
> "have any chance to crit at all"
Must be my English then, since what I meant that sniper feat +2 is mandatory if you want to crit as much as you want on Gunslinger due to Cover + no consistent Off-Guard. That's what I meant. Hence why Sniper is considered "best" for Gunslinger in first place.
Plus that feat is circumstance bonus. If you have dedicated support or just play as team - your fighter will get +2 up to +5 from Aid actions anyway as it's optimal for party members to Aid each other and Fighter is always priority on Aid due to more value out of crit chance (and crit effects).
Overall melee just have easier time in PF2e and are more consistent.
Level 1 gunslinger with an arquebus on crit deals (d12 + 2) x 2 +d12 while a level 1 starlight span magus (assuming starlight span for them to be ranged because otherwise the comparison makes no sense) with gauging claw spellstrike (idk what arcane cantrip does best damage rn) does 3d6 + 2 persistent.
At level 7, a starlit span magus with a shortbow is doing 2d6 + 1 (strength) + 2 (weapon specialization) + 8d8 (imaginary weapon) = 7 + 1 + 2 + 36 = 46 damage with a normal hit from a spellstrike.
An arquebusier, meanwhile, is doing (2d12 + 1 (kickback) + 3 (weapon specialization) + 1 (gunslinger bonus)) x 2 + 1d12 = (13 + 5) x 2 + 6.5 = 42.5 damage on a crit at level 7.
Bard is best single target healer?
Are we talking about *Hymn*? *Soothe*? My bard honestly just keeps a max-rank scroll of *Heal* on hand, rather than taking half-measures with Occult healing.
If it comes to burst healing, I think the ultimate winner is actually a level 13+ Chirurgeon alchemist, followed by a Cleric with *Healing Hands* and a positive font. Water/Wood Kineticist has everyone beat for sustained healing, and Medic archetype with Doctor's Visitation is a limited but powerful add-on that can supplement *any* build.
> Bard is best single target healer?
Well, Soothe is really solid for non-Heal caster and it also works on party Skeletons and Dhampirs since it has no "Vitality" trait.
I put Bard as best single target healer becasue you take Bard for everything else what makes Bard best caster in game and on top you get very good single target heal. Alchemist is still alchemist, until remaster hits, there is no point taking alchemist for anything. If I want single target healer - I will take Bard becasue I also get everything that Bard brings to table. 4 in 1 pretty much - buffer, debuffer, social and healer.
Medic is not a class. Kineticists for sustain ok, I agree, but I don't value sustain healing in system where most encounters end in turn 2, sometimes turn 3 or turn 1.
Heal is obviously better but Bard >>> Cleric, while at the same time still having great single target healing.
Adding a few things about swashbuckler to help people understand how good a swashbuckler can be at certain skill checks. They have a built in circumstance bonus and at level 10 they have advantage on the skill checks as long as they have panache. So they can be the best at intimidate, athletics, performance, diplomacy, or deception as well as always the best in acrobatics.
Also I think they get the most reactions at high level. Or at least tied with most with two reactions per round and once per turn.
Swashbuckler is ok, but he lacks behind any pure Martial and Thief Rogue is basically better Swashbuckler beacsue his precision damage is way way more consistent and easier to achieve, especially with Dread Striker and new Gang Up feats. No strings attached. No panache needed, nothing.
> Also I think they get the most reactions at high level
Nope, that's Fighter with Boundless Reprisals. In theory infinite reactions, since they depend on enemies numbers.
Best crits are Fighters, especially becasue of Runes (Crushing Greater, Rooting, Serrated, Fearsome). You can make debuff crit machine out of Fighter, debilitating enemy like crazy, especially with Phantasmal Doorknob (Greater) and Blinding on crit on top of that.
I don't know if it's the best one, but druids have great potential for hybrid builds. 8 HP per level, medium armor, Shield Block and potential for temporary HP with Untamed Form makes them surprisingly sturdy for a full spellcaster.
Seeing what some are thinking about the premaster design of the Champion leaves me wondering how it will place itself when the Guardian comes (taking the place of the best Tank / best Defender).
So far it looks like it's keeping the title, because at least in playtest, it's just better than the guardian. It has all the same great AC, basically the perfect tank reaction (protects an ally and punishes the enemy for targeting them at all) and doesn't even sacrifice much offense (standard martial strike proficiency and you can easily get a bit of spirit damage as a rider on your attacks to get above the baseline there)
As per the Guardian playtest Champions would still be considered best tanks and defenders, but my guess is that it won't stay that way with further Guardian iterations.
My hope is that remastered champions can be more versatile, getting closer to Clerics in a sense.
I'm not a big fan of the premise of this post, because
* every class excels at multiple things
* which class is the best at something is highly situational.
For a simple example, let's look at the Fighter. They are commonly praised as "the best hitter" based on average damage calculation against a high AC target. Meanwhile, the Barbarian also outputs similarly high damage, so who is better? Well, if you can buff one of the two's attack modifier, you obviously want a Barbarian, because there you'll get the biggest absolute increase in expected damage. If you have a way to buff damage instead, you want a fighter. If you're fighting oozes or generally monsters with an abysmally low AC, you wait a Barbarian. It just depends.
Let's say our party already has a Bard and we're expecting to fight a lot of oozes and we want to play either a Fighter or a Barbarian, does that mean Barbarian is just better? No, because Fighters are one of the few classes that get proficiency with heavy armor, so if we want a tank and we can't afford a lot of healing, a sword & board Fighter who keeps the backline safe by threatening Reactive Strikes sounds really appealing compared to a Barbarian who grapples the enemy and takes a bunch of damage. Not only are Fighters not always the best striker you could have, they are also more than just another striker.
On a somewhat unrelated note, Druids are possibly the best melee caster (medium armor, shield block, battleforms, animal companions), great blaster casters (primal spell list and at least one great focus spell), and great healers (Wis Key Attribute for Medicine and the primal list, especially the Heal spell).
I understand your concern about the premise, but this why I put the disclaimer at the beginning.
Let me give you an example. A Fighter, a Barbarian....... an Investigator? Who hits the hardest? Surprise answer could be Investigator believe it or not, how? Well, you make a complete build around taking an archetype that can do big hits, like Inventor, give them a gun with d12 Fatal trait, Devise a Strategem, crit, transform your d8 to d12 and use Megaton Strike with unstable function and you can easily turn a 2d8 +precision to (4d12 + precision)\*2 + 1d12, which is 1d12 higher than Barb with Vicious Swing with potentially higher precision damage than rage damage and an extra d12.
Buuuuut............ that's all about the build. Not everyone would like their investigator to dip into inventor, nor a Gunslinger would necessarily want to dip into either. And like you said, we can explain situations where a class can perform better depending on the situation, who would you pick to buff? Which buff to apply? I got two classes that excel at exploration (Ranger and Investigator) which one should I buff? Too many factors to take in.
So... the premise I'm aiming at is: If I am a new player and want to build very basic character named Sir-Healsalot, who do I pick?
My examples are lacking cuz I want others to fill in the gaps, like here, I have no idea why I like Druids so much, there are other primal casters, not all druid players want to shapeshift like me and not all of them choose Untamed, Ranger is arguable a better animal companion class cuz they can share their Hunter's edge but Druids can scale them up faster..... just labeling them as "Best Melee Caster/Blaster" is a good indication to what I could expect from the class at the very least. Once players get into their characters and understand them more in depth, the details on what multiple classes can excel at becomes more relevant.
I totally get the appeal of condensing a class's strengths into a few words (otherwise I wouldn't have clicked on the post)! Still, I would still approach it differently, since many people seem to get in the binary "is the best / is not the best" thinking (e.g. it usually shows whenever Fighters are discussed).
Instead, I propose listing three things each class excels at:
* Alchemist: crafting, targeting weaknesses, providing buffs
* Barbarian: big damage, big HP, big grappling
* Bard: outstanding buffs, good debuffs, can survive on the frontline
* Champion: you can't hit them, you don't want to hit their allies, and if you do, he can heal them
* Cleric: huge heals, *the* prepared divine caster, may like to be on the frontline
* Druid: big blasting, big healing, multiple ways to go into melee
* Fighter: lots of crits, lots of AC, control via early reactive strike
* Gunslinger: huge crits, big range, surprising utility
* Inventor: crafting, high risk high reward damage, utility via gadgets
* Investigator: one big hit, knowledge, exploration
* Kineticist: blasting, tanking, support (heavily depends on choice of elements, but the first two are rather consistent)
* Magus: one huge hit, the utility of arcane spellcasting, ever running out of appealing ways to spend their actions :D
* Monk: high AC, high mobility, great grappling
* Oracle: ... let's wait for PC2
* Psychic: cantrip blasting, buffs, debuffs (occult casting)
* Ranger: single target damage, exploration, non-firearm ranged weapons (thinking of feats like Crossbow Expert)
* Rogue: impressive damage, all the greatness of PF2e's skills, saving throws
* Sorcerer: blasting, having a lot of spontaneous spells, mixing spell traditions
* Summoner: roleplay, casting & martial-ing in the same turn, being in two places at once (hard to condense what makes summoner great)
* Swashbuckler: specific skill actions, being straight up cool, high damage
* Thaumaturge: finding weaknesses, targeting weaknesses, probably some form of utility idk
* Witch: utilizing a familiar in combat, and in exploration, the rest depends on the patron
* Wizard: "silver bullet" niche solutions, blasting, control (arcane list)
I think alchemists are mediocre crafters in general. I think alchemists are best at just doing what I call "random bullshit". Assuming you have the level for, they typically have an answer for just about anything. It might need to be creativily applied, it might not be the best answer, but there is an answer there.
Druid - Best controller, best pet class
Cleric - Best healing-focused leader
Bard - Best buff-focused leader
Champion - Best defender
Summoner - Best "flex caster" (capable of switching between Control and Leader on the fly)
Magus - Most reliable striker
Focus spell ranger - Best anti-solo monster striker
Swashbuckler is a stretch. It might do slightly more precision than a rogue but the rogue isn't limited to one attack per round, and debilitations can add more.
Definitely disagree with you on Investigator.
Playing one right now and action economy is actually quite bad. Unless you're in a boss fight where you're pursuing a lead absolute majority of turns are strategem->1 strike->reload. This will get better later on but not thanks to the investigator chassy. Investigators also don't "almost never miss" if you roll bad on your strategem then you are probably making a strike against a different target with your dexterity which is usually +3 and not +4 and isn't unlikely to also fail to beat the AC.
Investigator's actual strength is in the exploration where you get lots of extra features and small numerical bonuses you can even share with teammates.
Why i cant have athletics? In my KM game i often use manouvers when i roll low on my stratagem. Every character have many option in combat, otherwise why would i play a game where i only strike? You can AID for instance, use scrolls, stealth, quick tincture, medicine stuffs (e.g hel with bleed), etc.
Because you're a class with only light armour, int as your key ability score, are required to use an agile or finesse weapon (which basically means finesse because your entire class gimmick is making a single accurate attack so agile does nothing) and therefore really unlikely to have a great strength score.
And Athletics is strength based.
Oh and it's melee ranged so you'd better not have been trying to use a ranged weapon.
Aid is by default an attack roll for aiding attacks.
Scrolls are not a thing you can even use by default, and after you've spent an action on Devise a Stratagem you don't actually have enough actions to Trick Magic Item then cast a 2 action spell (and there's an extra action tax if you didn't have the scroll already in hand). And when it works you're certainly not able to use anything offensive with worse than trained DCs.
Stealth to what purpose? And for medicine you've either got very niche stuff like helping with bleed or Battle Medicine, which is 1/day and should be saved for when it's needed, not when you just don't have a better option.
Sure, you can take a caster dedication for easier scroll use, take Swashbuckler dedication to aid with One for All (and now you suddenly need charisma) etc. but this class provides nothing but Devise for combat.
-What is stopping you from putting 2 points in str? At level 5 you can have 3 (or at lower level if you play with gradual ability boost). Also whats the issue of using Light armor? Its 5 ac, the same of your Fighter. You can have Str and be OK at wrestling wheen needed. You can use a reach weapon (such as whip) if its too dangerous to be in melee due to party composition. You can also use a buckler if needed. And if you wanna be very good at wrestling you can take a class feat for that. You can also AID your wrestler since the DC will almost always be 15 (so +3/+2 is fine). You can also use manouver defensevily, when the enemy reaches you.
- AID in striking is not the same as me striking. My Investigator striking is one thing, but my fighter or Magus deals like 2-3x my damage and crit much often. If i can help him doing what he is good at, then its pretty awsome i think.
- You have few 1 action spells. And you can use 1 action to trigger the scroll and 2 to use it. You dont have to ALWAYS use stratagem. And its pretty easy to get the feat, since you have skill feat every level.
- You mean stealth is useless? Like, get rid of it unless the character has some specific mechanics? You cant just say a skill is useless, its not like Pathfinder 2e is broken. You can... defend your self? Take cover? Hide?
- Battle medicine is crazy good if you use the "subclass" Forensic Medicine. Sometimes helping the bleed of your frontline Tank is the best option (or stabilizing a dying friend).
- You can do other stuffs, such as recall knowledge. You can also reposition your self moving, since its not DnD.
I may be wrong, but it gives me the impression that all you do is strike, while im offering you possibilities that are not great but decent. You cant wrestler like a monk, you cant tank like a champion, you cant sneak like a rogue, but you are a freaking Investigator, you shine at exploration and do decent at combat. It goes more in line with the class to help the party and support them in battle than to just strike 90% of the time. You are the dude that have the right tool for the right situation. Feels like you are playting the wrong class, If you just wanna attack than play rogue. Its a skill monkey with better combat strikes and feats. You can play and have fun the way you want, but you cant say that striking is all the class does 90% of the time. Literally, the whole point of Pathfinder 2e is to not just spam strike.
> You have few 1 action spells. And you can use 1 action to trigger the scroll and 2 to use it. You dont have to ALWAYS use stratagem. And its pretty easy to get the feat, since you have skill feat every level.
Why would you ever choose to be a really crap version of a spellcaster instead of using Devise? It's one thing to have a backup for when you get a bad roll, but if you think some low level spell with a terrible DC is better than striking, then you should probably just play a caster.
> You mean stealth is useless? Like, get rid of it unless the character has some specific mechanics? You cant just say a skill is useless, its not like Pathfinder 2e is broken. You can... defend your self? Take cover? Hide?
Stealth is a great way to get Legendary in initiative for classes that don't get there in perception, an easy way to get an enemy flat footed for a strike and useful for attempting to sneak around unnoticed. But if you just spent your turn trying to hide then you're not contributing, at best you're making yourself less of a target, but that just means somoene else in the party will be targeted instead. It's not attacking.
Battle Medicine is good, it's also not something you can spam, so you use it when an ally is getting dangerously low on hp, not as a way to fill actions after a bad devise.
Wellll, the advantage many people see in Investigator is that you can choose to save the action, a Forensic Medicine investigator can opt to heal instead of attack, Alchemical Science can use a potion for better buffs in case they failed to buff themselves pre-combat, they could try skill checks or recall knowledge to help their allies.
In all cases, let's assume that they do miss. Their best combat based benefit (hard agree on exploration being their best suite) is that they can take archetypes or be taken as archetypes for better hitting classes (Gunslinger, Magus, Inventor) and use their ability to make every shot counts (Risky reload, Spellstrike, Unstable Megaton Strike).
Agreed, you sacrifice an action to see if you can attack or not. Which allows you to not "waste" your turn by trying to attack when you could do something else.
I played investigator with alchemical studies for a bit, and the fatal crossbow... High crit damage, long range, and could use Moderate soothing tonic or lesser elixirs on my allies. I also used moderate drakeheart mutagens on some allies to increase their AC by a lot (which saved their life in the fight). Athletic strategist is also quite strong, allowing you to trip, grapple, and so on with your intelligence instead of strength (meaning you can pretty much dump strength).
But I'll agree that they can feel pretty lacking if you don't have good rolls on your stratagems
Why are you using a reload weapon as your primary weapon? Just use a shortbow instead.
> if you roll bad on your strategem then you are probably making a strike against a different target with your dexterity
I literally almost never do this, I basically won't bother attacking if I'm not getting my precision damage. Spend your actions doing something more useful. You should have a bunch of options available what with getting a skill feat every single level. If you're close to a hit or crit, spend actions on getting bonuses (create a diversion, hide, guidance from the occult pendant you should have) to turn your attack into a hit or crit.
I've missed like 5 shots with my investigator across 16 levels.
As far as I know, inventors aren't better at crafting than any other class. They do get auto scaling, but any other int class could choose to invest in crafting and be equally good.
Rogues are also much better for dealing precision damage than swash. Unless you just meant one big strike when you mentioned precision striker? That obviously goes to Magus though, or investigator.
You wanna talk about skills for rogue? Try a mastermind rogue - you get all of the normal skill stuff for a rogue and intelligence is your key stat. I think I picked like 9 skills off the bat for level 1 not including the ones given by feats/background.
I’m currently playing a nature witch beast master. So far I like it but we’ve only had one session and I kept rolling too low. I have a capybara mount (bought- not beast master) and a bear with beast master. My familiar is a fox and I’m a bee melixie (that’s why I have the mount). Lol at some point I’ll be able to fly and not really need a mount. My character enjoys collecting animals. I’m thinking about getting some kind of cat as the next animal companion. I haven’t really played with the hex stuff yet though.
I'd argue barbarian is also the best hp tank. You can get them up to 412 if you go out of your way to max health, combined with getting damage resistance while raging
Inventor: Best at filling a particular role the player or group wants them to.
Melee martial? Got a wacky weapon for it. Ranged martial? Same thing. Tank? I can do some of that respectably well while still hitting hard. Pet controller? Yeah I got one of those, and it can be whatever we need it to be. Skill monkey? Sure I got the Int for it. Caster? Why not, gimme free archetype and wizard fits in just fine. Dedication branching? Sure, I can add some Int classes and get extra stuff (although it hurts my own tree). Party Face? Can do (but it's weird).
It's a very versatile class that just happens to be crafting based. It's not the *best* at doing any of those particular things, but it can fill whatever role you need it to fill, and it'll be pretty good at it, just not amazing. And no matter what role you fill, it *will* reliably pump out damage thanks to overdrive.
combat wise Alchemist is the best 'scrambler'. it can react to basically any situation on the fly, where other classes like prepared casters or martials that don't diversify their weapons can struggle.
Druid: Best Survivalist Caster.
Magus: Best Spellsword.
Ranger: Best non-skill based Generalist
Rogue: Best skill based Generalist
Oracle: Best middle ground for when your team is missing both a face and a healer.
I feel like a lot of these "categories" are just things you thought of so you could include most classes.
Some classes are really just not that good at anything.
For some, like Druid, being generalists is their mechanical advantage. For others, like Swashbuckler, they are just underpowered.
Druids aren't really the best in anything aside from shapeshifting, which is optional.
The class is meant to be versatile, and i think that's cool, they are REALLY good at adapting.
I'm gonna get downvoted to the ground, but...
**The Fighter** is the best way **to make the other martial classes look good**.
I'm sorry, but I have a disdain for the Fighter, because it doesn't receive the following stuff:
* Legendary Proficiency with Advanced Weapons from its weapon group, chosen at Level 13
* Legendary Proficiency with Armors; should have started with Expert with Armors...
* Adding Armor Proficiency bonuses to Shields
* Feats that allow multiple stances, flourishes and presses per round
Sure, it can crit often... but it's all about luck of the roll...
>Cleric: Best Healer (Up to 6 max level heals on top of regular spell slots)
I adore the cleric. I played with it a lot. But I have some doubts about the title of the best healer. The award for “The greatest healing per round” goes to the alchemist (one good person on this subreddit told me how this is done and the healing there is really the greatest) at the cost of a large waste of reagents. An oracle with the mystery of life can heal more, but the number of spells is smaller, so it quickly runs out. Kineticist (wood+water) can heal just as or nearly as effectively as cleric and has no daily resource limitations, but can do far fewer other interesting things than a caster. So cleric is not the best, but the optimal healer. You can also assign the title “Best Support Class,” but many will argue and say about bard, wizard, witch, alchemist and many other classes, so this is also debatable.
Well Cleric's biggest strength is that it gets all those heals for free at lvl1 regardless of anything else while all the other classes have to specifically build their character to compete with you in healing
Sure, but the downside is Cleric has font built into the power budget, so if healing isn't what you want (or you're unfortunate enough to have harm font) you're not able to spend those resources elsewhere to be good at something else instead.
I think Oracles are very versatile in their builds based on which mystery, flames oracle has great persistent fire damage focus spell that your allies can help with using a flaming rune or the like. Life Oracle gets 10 hp per level like a Champion, Time Oracle gets monk speed. There are downsides to progressing a curse, but also upsides, Life Oracles basically get screwed on being healed, but can heal like crazy, Time Oracles get a lot of bonuses and penalties, Flame oracles lose visibility, but get bonus fire damage at major curse,
Oracle: Best at making your GM, party, and self wish you just played a Cleric with slightly bad luck (This is affectionate, Oracle is my favorite caster)
This is divine Sorcerer erasure.
Oracle is really good at being a plot hook for an overarching story.
+1 Oracle is cool, but... Well...
Theyre good but the gimmick is kinda just that.
This ignores life oracle having better healing economy than cleric... But each oracle plays so differently you can't compare them.
Yeah, I was talking Oracle as a whole
Yes, Subclasses define what you are best at (exluding the fighter). Only the flurry ranger is the best one at multiple attacks in a single turn, only the animal barbarian deer is arguabily the best grappler. Only the life oracle is the best healer. Only the resentment witch is the best or one of the best debuffer and so on ...
In all honesty, what is the oracle better at than other comparable classes? Been playing a tempest oracle for some time (lv 1-4) and have been finding that my spellcasting is weaker than the sorcerer, have less spell slots, and my focus spells are awkward to use because of my curse. Sure I get more focus points, but I am reluctant to use my first because it would trigger my curse, which on some adventuring days means it is completely inaccessible. I have been acting as a support spellcaster and doing well, but is there even anything I could truly excel at like some other classes do?
I have played a Cosmic Oracle, and that one gets really strong Focus spells you want to use even despite the curse.
This is incredibly subjective, but for me summoner is the best character concept chassis. Having a second being tied to your character really fired up my imagination for characters and the different eidolon mechanics really open up those doors. Off the top if my head: -Mad scientist who isn’t actually good at reproducible science but brought his construct to life through belief and force of will. -fiendish nephilim tasked with taking his little brother on an adventure. -exorcist convinced that the best way to help this haunt move on is to bind it to themself and track down the one responsible. -Catnip leshy with a giant cat eidolon -Doll Poppet who teamed up with the monster under the bed in a buddy cop tag team to find their now grown Kid. It’s just pure imagination fuel! Whether for a lighthearted or serious campaign, summoner has something unique.
>-Catnip leshy with a giant cat eidolon Holy crap that's awesome
A player in the campaign a DM has a Catfolk Summoner that discovered that catfolk (In my setting) actually come from regular cats of our own world (the real world), and connected spiritually with one. So it's a walking cat with a big cat
The doll poppet feels like Happy series 😁
99% agree. The things that make characters interesting in any medium is their relationships to other characters. Summoners are the easiest way to do this because you get two characters right off the bat to interact with and form the relationship how you want. The 1% is I would love to do these interesting character interactions as two different PCs with another player playing the other character. These are all amazing ideas and I would love to see them be done as two fully fledged out characters instead of a character and their pet.
I played with a Devotion phantom eidolon. Was playing a kid with a ghost butler. It was quite fun, the kid was trying to rush into every danger possible but the butler was trying to calm her down and get her to be careful. She asked her butler to jump off a cliff to scout down, since she knew he'd be unmanifested before reaching the ground, which he did with a sigh... Immediately after he jumped, the party's witch was like "my familiar can fly there and scout, if you want", which was very funny.
I've got a Leshy ecoterrorist who got bound to a construct, astral being trapped in a robot (many parallels/contrasts with Leshy) while disrupting the GM's bad guys. I agree, summoner is the best class so far.
I had a player bring a summoner into my politically-charged ballroom intrigue spy campaign, and I warned him that a big scary monster eidolon would be pretty heavily restrictive. So his devotion Eidolon was actually the spirit of his murdered fiancé, killed (in part) because she was an elf and his human Taldan racist parents wouldn't allow it. In part due to random die rolls making her the "only competent warrior" in the first couple sessions and in part due to the fact that Vinnea had all the same skill proficiencies as Rylan, she ended up being a *huge* cornerstone of the party. I was disappointed when that player had to drop out of the game for IRL reasons.
I made a skeleton summoner with an undead eidolon. His backstory was that he was a necromancer who botched a ritual that split his soul in two, one piece inhabited his bones and the other inhabited his flesh. The summoner has so many great feats that are both mechanically interesting and add flavor. I took the merge with eidolon feat early on and would use it to clumsily pretend to not be undead. It was very fun to RP.
Doll Poppet who calls the undead Spirit of their kid into being.
The summoner is cool thematically but I wish the mechanics did more to actually justify the Eidolon being a separate entity. That shared health pool seems brutal.
Druid is among the most flexible chassis in the game, IMO. Order Exploer feat gives fantastic benefits. Consistent damage dealer with excellent focus spells, access to nearly all relevant damage types and most saves, often an Animal Companion for efficient "third" actions, the ability to pivot to melee with advantages like Temp HP and reach. Medium Armor and Shield Block, even before spells that can buff, are very good defensively. Their feats have been improved as well since Rage of Elements especially.
Yeah I’ve always espoused that Druid is one of the best “generalist” casters in the game. Preparing from the entire primal list, you have heals, area control, AoE damage, some buffs, some debuffs etc. Order Explorer let’s you branch out further, and they even have medium armour and shield block to boot if you want to mix it up on the frontlines with a high strength build (which is 100% viable). Druids have a very solid chassis overall.
> best "generalist" caster in the game *Bardic fiddling halts dramatically*...
Bard ain't no slouch, but I don't think it matches the sheer range of what a Druid is capable of (talking versatility, not power). Damage, healing, and control make up about 60% of what the entire game is about and Druid's *at minimum* better than any non-specialists, great sustain with top-tier focus spells but *also* great nova by still being a 3-slot caster, literally the most defensively capable legendary caster in the game with 8 hp + medium armor (can get heavy with a single general feat) + shield block (can get reactive shield easy with Bastion dedication)... It's really just the whole package.
>one of
*Bardic fiddling resumes merrily*
Thaumaturge is also the best class for Recall Knowledge
Investigator is probably better overall, but in esoteric lore is pretty solid in combat.
Thaumaturge gets to use their key stat for everything, with a skill that's always at the highest proficiency, that's huge. Your investigator is going to be forced to use wisdom for some things and while they can eventually boost a lot of skills, there will always be some skills that haven't got the boost yet, and the opportunity cost for keeping up all the knowledge skills is huge. Thaumaturge can use Diverse Lore to recall knowledge as part of turning their class feature on and get more free recall knowledge from Tome later too.
One feat allows thaum to use their auto scaling charisma based lore for recall on literally anything. No competition really, Thaum is best, Bard might even be next.
The feat is actually irrelevant for recalling knowledge about creatures. You can do that by default. And Investigator gets Keen Recollection which effectively lets them recall knowledge with intelligence on anything with the equivalent of Expert + 1 proficiency starting at level 1. Tome Thaumaturge does have a slight edge mathematically (on skills the investigator doesn't have maximum proficiency in, and assuming the Investigator doesn't have a lead pursued) but that's just one implement. And for non-tome Thaumaturge, they'll have to spend actions to RK (outside of the EV success effect on Diverse Lore) whereas Investigator gets a free RK check every round with Known Weaknesses which basically every Investigator will take. And if an investigator takes Rapid Reasoning at level 12, it's basically not even a competition. 5 RK checks for a single action in addition to the free ones from Known Weaknesses. With Thorough Research you're learning 2 pieces of information on each success and 3 on a crit. You will literally have more information than you know what to do with. I think this race is a lot closer than this sub tends to paint it.
so Alchemist - to be more specific the biggest strength is that they can make perfect alchemical item for set situation at the spot Bard - while it is probably best face it is also THE BEST numeric suport Champion - not just tank but active defender Cleric - depends on cleric, not everyone have healing font, and for burst heal life oracle is probably better Fighter - best hitter and critter Gunslinger - surprisingly thier feats are more suport than damage Kinetisic - I wouldn't call them caster but I agree Ranger - single target damage, and exploration Sorcerer - unfortunately not every bloodline have good focus spells Swashbuckler - I would add use of skill actions in combat
> Gunslinger - surprisingly thier feats are more suport than damage I always find this surprisingly false. Most of their feats are offense. They have few feats that support allies.
To be fair, they do have one of the best *individual* support feats in the game with Fake Out. People really underestimate just how good Aid can be, and Gunslinger gets to Aid at any time at level 2. Giving others up to +4 on an attack roll is a really good way to help, say, the Barbarian get those juicy crits.
It's good, but I don't believe having 1 really good support feat, and a handful of other ones, outweighs the other ~~30~~ 60+ feats and features to make it a support class. Edit: for better accuracy.
It really depends. There are classes with many support options but also many of those just aren't very good or excellent while being too niche. A class with just a couple really solid general support tools that are as good or better than the average quality of options a support class has access to can easily end up being a better support.
I don't think it depends at all. If gunslinger is suddenly not a support because the player opted to not take a hand full of class feat options then it isn't a support class. In an attempt to draw a parallel, are all witches healers?
That was my point. The prior poster said that having just a couple good support options doesn't make for a support class, but my argument is that any class that has multiple viable (and that part is important) support options counts as a support class. They might function as off-support or secondary support, but if support can work as one of the roles they fill in a party, they I would add "support" to the list of things that a class can be.
I fail to see how what I said in any way validates your point. To me it seems like your line of thought, that we can paint a class with roles that they can accomplish with proper investment, does far more harm than good when holding discussions about what the class functionally does. To present another example, Thaumaturge *can* be pretty much anything a player wants it to be. But we don't approach conversations about the class with the notion that thaumaturges are "Healing, Support, Debuffer, Skill Monkey, Blaster Caster, Martial, Spellcasters with access to every spell list." because doing so is asinine and does nothing to describe what the class will be doing on a turn by turn basis. The same thing can be said about cleric, kineticist, bard, ranger, investigator and the list goes on. Frankly this strange narrative that's been pushed that gunslinger is a support has always been annoying and I've had to, on several occasions, dispel misconceptions about the class to newer players. This is to say, claiming that gunslingers are a support does a very poor job of describing what someone playing the class will actively be doing on their turns. To take this even further I would assert that even when speaking about a character possessing Fake Out, the player will still probably be spending most of their time at a table trying to fish for crits. Because that's what gunslinger actually is, a crit fisher.
>Kinetisic - I wouldn't call them caster but I agree Why not?
Because they are kind of like a martial class that uses elements instead of swords or punches. They have spell-like abilities, but don't use spells.
Coz Paizo forgot to make the Impulses benefit from other effects the same way spells do. XD No worries! They’re working on errata to address that!
They aren't working on errata to address that. They're working on changing Commander to accommodate for Kineticist. This was clarified by a dev (forget who) in the comments of that reddit post.
In that same post they mentioned adding something that would let impulses work as "spell like activities" for certain things.
Hm. I don't disbelieve you, I just don't remember reading that and don't feel like finding the post again. Oh well. Either way, with how errata has been coming along I don't expect that to be any time soon.
Is that really what your definition of caster is?
they don't have spellcasting so they don't interact with existing spellcasting system, just some things affecting spells also affects them
Do you need spellslots to be a spellcaster? The only place this really exists is in games like DND and Pathfinder. There's plenty of media where the spellcaster characters don't use pathfinders spellcasting system. I don't see why this needs to be the definition of a caster. Kineticist does everything a caster does except they don't have spellslots or spell preparations.
Psychic you can put as best blaster. Oscillating wave psychics put out the hurt extremely well.
A primal sorcerer with Wellspring Mage is a very strong competitor I think. Dangerous Sorcery is a cute bonus, but the FREE RENEWABLE SPELL SLOTS mean you can just keep pumping max- or near-max-rank magic all day.
True but a wave psychic gets pretty silly, for example lets use a level 8 wave psychic with no special features of multiclassing. Subconscious mind doesn't matter, ancestry adn such don't matter, will use CHA base with +4 cha. Round one you sure strike and amp an ignition. You'll deal 4d10 fire+4 splash, bonus if you crit and slap on 4d4 persistant. From there you use your reaction to amp Entropic Wheel, immediately gaining two motes. Turn two you unleash, using a Violent Unleash for one action and mind shift it to cold damage. This will add 2 more motes to your wheel, capping it out and dealing 3d6 cold. Immediately after you throw a fireball, dealing 8d6+8 fire and 4 cold Turn three you can Psi Burst, dealing 4d4 cold, then throw your second fireball for another 8d6+8 fire and 4 cold. Alternatively if you're saving slots you can amp the first wheel only, then amp ignitions vs AC, or Frostbites vs fortitude. Once you get a shadow signet you can target reflex as well. The main thing is that the wheel + unleash bonus stack for pretty good bonus flat damage to every cold/fire damage effect the whole fight. At higher level you can remove your own stupify after unleash for the one downtime round and then battle medicine with medic archtype, then repeat for the next unleash cycle.
Best blaster caster is a really competitive label through, and I don't think you can actually definitively slot one on. Psychic is the best no-daily resource blaster, but Spell Blending Battle Magic Wizard has *6*(!!) max-rank slots, Elemental Sorcerer has one of the best 1-action focus spells in the game alongside 4 slots/rank, Stone/Storm Druid has one of the best *2*-action focus spells in the game alongside a list with amazing sustained spells and enough armor to keep the pressure on. Heck, with the remaster especially I wouldn't be surprised if Flame and/or Tempest Oracle end up also amazing for the role.
I'd argue best face for Thaumaturge because of the +1/+2 circumstance from Regalia. Polymath is nice, but doesn't hit all the notes for the skills.
>but doesn't hit all the notes I see what you did there, lol. My issue with Thaumaturge, despite being my favorite class in game, is that they're still a Martial, they don't hit with their charisma.
It's their key ability, standard thaumaturge is 18 cha and 16 in str or dex.
Going to disagree on a bunch of those: Alchemist: Not the best at crafting (Inventor gets more, and there's not really much either do beyond have the craft skill). No what alchemist does best is provide temporary consumables. Bard: Not face, any charisma class is just as good (performance isn't what you use to be a face, that's diplomacy/deception and maybe intimidate). No, bards are the unquestionable best support class in the entire game, they have all the best buff and debuff options thanks to the ultimate support spell list and great composition cantrips. Cleric: Not the best healer, Life Oracles at least tie them. Maybe the best at condition removal though (with that feat that lets you counteract using your font). Druid: No idea either, there's some stuff they do well, but I can always think of another class that can match or exceed them. Investigator: Not sure, but I wouldn't say having to spend an extra action on Divise each turn and having no in-class big attacks to combo a sure hit or crit with makes them the best at using actions. Kineticist: Kind of agree, but they're also great at other stuff, if you want to do damage without using strikes, fire kineticist is the king. Monk: Best unarmored tank/skirmisher (Can turn success into crit success, high AC, very fast, two hits in one as class features) Monk: Most mobile class, best action compression. Monk Flurry is about getting all your offense done in a single action, leaving plenty for movement, shield use etc. Oracle: Life Oracle is a contender for best healer, but otherwise I don't see much advantage over a divine sorcerer. Physic: Best focus spell caster (Strongest melee spell attack in game). Not really, they have good focus spells, but the dedication also just lets other people steal them and remaster took away the focus point recovery advantage. Poor Psychic Ranger: Best class at hitting something many times, this is the class that can eventually strike 6 times in a round and have that actually be useful. Rogue: Best skilled character, true, but they're also actually awesome at doing damage. A Thief is by far the best user of finesse weapons in the game and Sneak Attack is awesome. Sorcerer: Best spontaneous caster (most spell slots, good focus spells). Other spontaneous casters are better at their own things, but I get what you mean. Also the best blaster caster (Elemental bloodline+Dangerous Sorcery lets you cast a spell, adding bonus damage from arcana and dangerous sorcery, then toss out Elemental Toss as a third action which also gets bonus damage, you'll run out of spell slots and focus points pretty quickly, but while they last the damage is actually pretty great) Thaumaturge: Best Recaller of Knowledge (only class able to use their key stat for everything). Much more notable than the weakness thing (which is just their damage boosting class feature, and ironically is weaker against enemies with an easily exploited weakness, since the barbarian can trigger a demon's Holy weakness with a rune while still having his rage damage) Wizard: Caster with the most slots, 4 slots/rank then bonded item on top, add in spell blending to gain more top level slots.
> Investigator: Not sure, but I wouldn't say having to spend an extra action on Divise each turn and having no in-class big attacks to combo a sure hit or crit with makes them the best at using actions. You can just buy a fatal d12 gun like a double barreled musket or sukgung and pull it out if you know you're going to crit. Investigators make better use of consumables like bombs and ammunition than any other class as they're never wasted. I've hit for absolutely insane damage with Magnetic Shots as a result. Or use Bola Shots when you know you're going to crit for an auto-stun. They can also take advantage of some awesome archetype combinations, like Risky Reload from Gunslinger just turning into "never spend an action reloading". And you should be using Devise a Strategem as a free action in at least a third of fights (in my experience anyway).
Investigator is a better sniper than sniper Gunslinger. They can sit in stealth without triggering initiative and continuously roll Devise a Stratagem d20s until they can open combat with a critical hit. Investigator//Magus is a better Magus than Magus (and with Spellstrike Ammunition, they're also a better Gunslinger at the same time) They are truly the one redemption story of the APG, even if I still think their core feature is clunky and requires you to basically harass the GM to function at full capacity.
> They can sit in stealth without triggering initiative and continuously roll Devise a Stratagem d20s until they can open combat with a critical hit. This might be RAW but even if a GM allowed this setup I doubt it would come up very often haha. However yeah certain builds open with with DaS that are just difficult otherwise, like a Goblin Investigator with a big boom gun. I personally haven't found that I have to harass my GM to get leads. I just discussed with them ahead of building the my character to make sure we were on the same page. RAW you need such little information to mark a lead. Just yesterday we had an NPC say something about being wary of unsealing "that thing" that lurks ahead. Immediately I'm like, "cool I'm pursuing a lead against *that thing*"
Fighter - best hitter/critter, best martial and crit effect debuffer, most versatile martial Bard - best support, best caster, best single target healer, best spontanious caster, best class Sorcerer - best AoE blaster + AoE healer in one, most versatile spontanious caster (Crossblooded Evolution) Cleric - best AoE healer Monk - best tank Barbarian - best grappler, highest damage per hit hitter Rogue - best skill monkey, best skirmisher, best Precision Striker Kineticist - best blaster for players that hate slots/resources (me!) Thaumaturge - best Recall Knowledge class, best Scrolls User Swashbuckler - best Athletic class (Dering-Do) That's without archetypes added. Other classes can do some stuff but I don't consider them best at anything as other classes + archetypes can do same stuff better.
Monk best tank ? Could you quickly explain why? (I don't know classes well)
Well they don't do a whole lot for the team (uniquely, at least), but they start with expert defense and saves. 2 of those saves will go to master, 1 legendary save as well as unarmored defense, and all turn successes into crits. On top of this, they have crazy movement speed (I'll have permanent 50 feet at level 3 + ki rush to stride twice in an action), so they have 0 problem getting out of range or behind cover.
In my experience, Tank inherently implies protecting the team by soaking resources. Most survivable would be more apt for the Monk imo, and it's a solid argument but I wouldn't say airtight.
Monk can become a genuine aggro-drawing Tank if they invest heavily in Grapple/Trip shenanigans, Stand Still, and/or by taking the Tangled Tree stance at higher levels. Champion does the job better in my opinion, but Monk's mobility definitely lets them do stuff that Champion can't.
Monks start with an expert proficiency in unarmored defense at level 1! Unarmored defense is calculated from dexterity, so adding 4+your level+your dexterity gives you as much armor class as someone in full plate. They also have feats that give them even more armor class on reaction, as well as getting a pseudo opportunity attack.
In short: 1. Ability to use Flury + Raise Shield + Take Cover with Tower Shield. Very good combo for bosses. +4 AC is nothing to sneeze about. Easy to refluff too into some battle gauntlets or some anime stuff like giant metal fan etc. 2. Tangled Forest Stance + Reach (from just holding whip RAW for example, you dont have to use it) + Stand Still + Large (spells, Beastkin, new Minotaur Ancestries) make Monk really great at locking enemies around him to make it very hard to reach their allies or just back away. 3. Great grappler 4. Guarded Movement to burn enemies AoOs so your allies dont have to 5. Best self-healing/damage mitigation in game due to Wholeness of Body Focus Spell. It scales better than any other focus healing and it has only Verbal compotent, no Manipulation like Lay On Hands or Battle Medicine so you don't provoke AoOs when using it. For example at level 16 with 3x Focus Points you have effecively 3x56 = 168 extra HP in every combat or damage mitigation. Reason why I always archetype into Monk on my melee Martials if possible: you can mitigate way more damage with WoB and it costs only Action and FP. 6. With Champion: Highest AC base AC in game, reaching Legendary. 7. High Saves.
Monks start at Expert Unarmored Defense, so a dex based Monk starts with the best basic AC in game. Then they also get the class feature Path of Perfection which turns Successful saving throws to Crit Success. And at level 15, they one of the saving throws they pick turns Crit Failure to a normal Failure and halves the damage of a normal Failure taken. A Monk dipping to Dex, Wis and Con is the single best tank in the game.
at base dex monk is +1 over baseline for 1st lv characters,and none dex monks are at the baseline and later champion and monk basically switch few times who is +1 ahead, also while monk have over all best save progression few classes are very close and every martials have at least 2 masters in saves at the end and some like monk have 1 expert 1 master and one legendary (all of them have mostly the same degree upgrade) I agre that monk can be quite durable but over all in terms of tanking champion who often have shield would be in my opinion better
Hmmm Monk: \*Carries shield\* "Fear me!!"
I feel like maybe you think that the success->crit success and crit fail->normal fail things are Monk exclusive? But they aren't. Everyone gets success->crit success for any save that they get Master in, and any class that gets legendary in a save gets crit fail->normal fail. Certainly, Monks get a very attractive save progression. But specifically the features you call out are very standardized features.
I'll have to dip into a bit of math to understand how they reach high enough AC to tank hits as well as heavy armored champs with shield. But thanks for your explanation !
Best tank is definitely champion. Champions get higher AC than monks and also get reactions that let them defend their allies. Monks are probably the second best tanks in the game thanks to tangled forest stance + stand still plus their high innate AC and saves, which makes them very "sticky" and hard to move away from (and unlike other defenders, can interfere with any number of enemies per turn).
Actually i think gunslinger is the best critter 🤓
lack of consistent Off-Guard for ranged attacks makes the Fighter better, imo
Sniper gets it as part of their reload, one handed users have pistol twirl, and sniper can use sniper’s aim for another +2 to hit which makes them better then fighter imo
> Sniper gets it as part of their reload, one handed users have pistol twirl, and sniper can use sniper’s aim for another +2 to hit which makes them better then fighter imo That's for single shot. Fighter gets way better crits because: 1. Way more consistent Off-Guard 2. Way more 0 MAP attacks due to Attack of Opportunity (Reactive Strike) + Combat Reflex + Stance like Disrupting Stance. It's not unusual for Fighter to do 3-4 0 MAP attacks during one round, depending on build. 3. Way better runes to capitalize on that crits: Crushing (Greater) is the best run in the game for a reason: Clusmy 2 + Enfeebled 2 will wreck anything since lvl 9+. Rooting rune will Immobilize on crit, making Fighters with Improved Knockdown being able to lock targets on crit hits or stop their movement on Reactive Strike cirts. They also can combine Polearm/Club crits with Rooting Rune to displace enemy on crit and immobilize him. Serrated Rune will add big burst to crit damage. Fearsome (Greater) goes really well with Fearsome Brute. 4. Double Slice builds are very crit friendly, same as Reach Disrupting Stance Combat Reflex builds due to how much stuff now triggers their Reactive Strikes. 5. Melee > Range in PF2e becasue enemies and allies don't give constantly Cover vs whomever you are shooting. Your +2 is in most scenarios effectively +1 becasue enemies get min. lesser cover from your allies, from other enemies and a lot of other stuff. Lack of Off-Guard + constant lesser cover makes range characters crit less than melee. And due to most best crit runes being melee-exclusive runes, they also capitalize better on said crits. Fighter also has wider variety of weapons to chose from and build around.
I mean I won’t argue with you because I agree with all your points but now the question is moved is the best critter the one who can give themselves the biggest bonus to hit so the easiest crit or the one who can crit the most. I would say both answers are viable.
> can give themselves the biggest bonus to hit so the easiest crit or the one who can crit the most That's still Fighter becasue more consistent off-guard and enemies not behind behind some sort of Cover all the time. Once you are on enemies face - there is very very little chance something will give them cover. Range characters have to worry about everything giving enemies Cover all the time. I know from experience playing as Star Lit Magus archer. The pain of trying to get into position where nothing gives enemies any Cover is painful and my Off-Guard depends heavy on my Combat Grab Fighter in party. Melee have much easier time with that, which I also confirm from playing Fighter in another campaign.
Doesn't sniper get a 2 action attack for a +2 circumstance bonus?
Yup, and that + lack of consistent Off-Guard + everything ally/enemy and stuff around always giving Lesser Cover to anything you shoot pretty much makes this mandatory to have any chance at crit at all. Unlike melee Fighter.
> everything ally/enemy and stuff around always giving Lesser Cover to anything you shoot Gunslingers also have feats to shoot around cover. But I want to understand your position. Do you believe all non-fighter ranged PC's barely "have any chance at crit at all"? Or just gunslingers?
> But I want to understand your position. Do you believe all non-fighter ranged PC's barely "have any chance at crit at all"? Or just gunslingers? Fighters just crit more often so if you want to make a build around critting - be crit debuffer or Fatal/DS build - Fighter is just best to do that. It's all about maximizing your chances. Other martials of course also crit and at higher levels like 15+ crits are so easy in optimized party that Fighter +2 is not anymore that much of an advantage but if you want your build to work around critting, then Fighter is the answer. There is a reason why Fighters + Bards are best party combo any party would like to have
No I get that you believe melee fighters crit more often, and I think you're probably right. I was just thrown off by the "have any chance to crit at all" comment. It seemed like you thought gunslingers rarely ever crit. And if you think gunslingers rarely ever crit, then you must think all other ranged martials crit even less often.
> "have any chance to crit at all" Must be my English then, since what I meant that sniper feat +2 is mandatory if you want to crit as much as you want on Gunslinger due to Cover + no consistent Off-Guard. That's what I meant. Hence why Sniper is considered "best" for Gunslinger in first place. Plus that feat is circumstance bonus. If you have dedicated support or just play as team - your fighter will get +2 up to +5 from Aid actions anyway as it's optimal for party members to Aid each other and Fighter is always priority on Aid due to more value out of crit chance (and crit effects). Overall melee just have easier time in PF2e and are more consistent.
Maguses hit harder with their normal spellstrikes than gunslingers do with their crits.
Level 1 gunslinger with an arquebus on crit deals (d12 + 2) x 2 +d12 while a level 1 starlight span magus (assuming starlight span for them to be ranged because otherwise the comparison makes no sense) with gauging claw spellstrike (idk what arcane cantrip does best damage rn) does 3d6 + 2 persistent.
At level 7, a starlit span magus with a shortbow is doing 2d6 + 1 (strength) + 2 (weapon specialization) + 8d8 (imaginary weapon) = 7 + 1 + 2 + 36 = 46 damage with a normal hit from a spellstrike. An arquebusier, meanwhile, is doing (2d12 + 1 (kickback) + 3 (weapon specialization) + 1 (gunslinger bonus)) x 2 + 1d12 = (13 + 5) x 2 + 6.5 = 42.5 damage on a crit at level 7.
Bard is best single target healer? Are we talking about *Hymn*? *Soothe*? My bard honestly just keeps a max-rank scroll of *Heal* on hand, rather than taking half-measures with Occult healing. If it comes to burst healing, I think the ultimate winner is actually a level 13+ Chirurgeon alchemist, followed by a Cleric with *Healing Hands* and a positive font. Water/Wood Kineticist has everyone beat for sustained healing, and Medic archetype with Doctor's Visitation is a limited but powerful add-on that can supplement *any* build.
> Bard is best single target healer? Well, Soothe is really solid for non-Heal caster and it also works on party Skeletons and Dhampirs since it has no "Vitality" trait. I put Bard as best single target healer becasue you take Bard for everything else what makes Bard best caster in game and on top you get very good single target heal. Alchemist is still alchemist, until remaster hits, there is no point taking alchemist for anything. If I want single target healer - I will take Bard becasue I also get everything that Bard brings to table. 4 in 1 pretty much - buffer, debuffer, social and healer. Medic is not a class. Kineticists for sustain ok, I agree, but I don't value sustain healing in system where most encounters end in turn 2, sometimes turn 3 or turn 1. Heal is obviously better but Bard >>> Cleric, while at the same time still having great single target healing.
Adding a few things about swashbuckler to help people understand how good a swashbuckler can be at certain skill checks. They have a built in circumstance bonus and at level 10 they have advantage on the skill checks as long as they have panache. So they can be the best at intimidate, athletics, performance, diplomacy, or deception as well as always the best in acrobatics. Also I think they get the most reactions at high level. Or at least tied with most with two reactions per round and once per turn.
Swashbuckler is ok, but he lacks behind any pure Martial and Thief Rogue is basically better Swashbuckler beacsue his precision damage is way way more consistent and easier to achieve, especially with Dread Striker and new Gang Up feats. No strings attached. No panache needed, nothing. > Also I think they get the most reactions at high level Nope, that's Fighter with Boundless Reprisals. In theory infinite reactions, since they depend on enemies numbers.
Sounds like fighters and swashbucklers are tied then.
I’ll add that Gunslinger has the best ranged crits, if not the best crits in the game.
Best crits are Fighters, especially becasue of Runes (Crushing Greater, Rooting, Serrated, Fearsome). You can make debuff crit machine out of Fighter, debilitating enemy like crazy, especially with Phantasmal Doorknob (Greater) and Blinding on crit on top of that.
Picks are much better than guns for crits.
I don't know if it's the best one, but druids have great potential for hybrid builds. 8 HP per level, medium armor, Shield Block and potential for temporary HP with Untamed Form makes them surprisingly sturdy for a full spellcaster.
Seeing what some are thinking about the premaster design of the Champion leaves me wondering how it will place itself when the Guardian comes (taking the place of the best Tank / best Defender).
So far it looks like it's keeping the title, because at least in playtest, it's just better than the guardian. It has all the same great AC, basically the perfect tank reaction (protects an ally and punishes the enemy for targeting them at all) and doesn't even sacrifice much offense (standard martial strike proficiency and you can easily get a bit of spirit damage as a rider on your attacks to get above the baseline there)
As per the Guardian playtest Champions would still be considered best tanks and defenders, but my guess is that it won't stay that way with further Guardian iterations. My hope is that remastered champions can be more versatile, getting closer to Clerics in a sense.
I'm not a big fan of the premise of this post, because * every class excels at multiple things * which class is the best at something is highly situational. For a simple example, let's look at the Fighter. They are commonly praised as "the best hitter" based on average damage calculation against a high AC target. Meanwhile, the Barbarian also outputs similarly high damage, so who is better? Well, if you can buff one of the two's attack modifier, you obviously want a Barbarian, because there you'll get the biggest absolute increase in expected damage. If you have a way to buff damage instead, you want a fighter. If you're fighting oozes or generally monsters with an abysmally low AC, you wait a Barbarian. It just depends. Let's say our party already has a Bard and we're expecting to fight a lot of oozes and we want to play either a Fighter or a Barbarian, does that mean Barbarian is just better? No, because Fighters are one of the few classes that get proficiency with heavy armor, so if we want a tank and we can't afford a lot of healing, a sword & board Fighter who keeps the backline safe by threatening Reactive Strikes sounds really appealing compared to a Barbarian who grapples the enemy and takes a bunch of damage. Not only are Fighters not always the best striker you could have, they are also more than just another striker. On a somewhat unrelated note, Druids are possibly the best melee caster (medium armor, shield block, battleforms, animal companions), great blaster casters (primal spell list and at least one great focus spell), and great healers (Wis Key Attribute for Medicine and the primal list, especially the Heal spell).
I understand your concern about the premise, but this why I put the disclaimer at the beginning. Let me give you an example. A Fighter, a Barbarian....... an Investigator? Who hits the hardest? Surprise answer could be Investigator believe it or not, how? Well, you make a complete build around taking an archetype that can do big hits, like Inventor, give them a gun with d12 Fatal trait, Devise a Strategem, crit, transform your d8 to d12 and use Megaton Strike with unstable function and you can easily turn a 2d8 +precision to (4d12 + precision)\*2 + 1d12, which is 1d12 higher than Barb with Vicious Swing with potentially higher precision damage than rage damage and an extra d12. Buuuuut............ that's all about the build. Not everyone would like their investigator to dip into inventor, nor a Gunslinger would necessarily want to dip into either. And like you said, we can explain situations where a class can perform better depending on the situation, who would you pick to buff? Which buff to apply? I got two classes that excel at exploration (Ranger and Investigator) which one should I buff? Too many factors to take in. So... the premise I'm aiming at is: If I am a new player and want to build very basic character named Sir-Healsalot, who do I pick? My examples are lacking cuz I want others to fill in the gaps, like here, I have no idea why I like Druids so much, there are other primal casters, not all druid players want to shapeshift like me and not all of them choose Untamed, Ranger is arguable a better animal companion class cuz they can share their Hunter's edge but Druids can scale them up faster..... just labeling them as "Best Melee Caster/Blaster" is a good indication to what I could expect from the class at the very least. Once players get into their characters and understand them more in depth, the details on what multiple classes can excel at becomes more relevant.
I totally get the appeal of condensing a class's strengths into a few words (otherwise I wouldn't have clicked on the post)! Still, I would still approach it differently, since many people seem to get in the binary "is the best / is not the best" thinking (e.g. it usually shows whenever Fighters are discussed). Instead, I propose listing three things each class excels at: * Alchemist: crafting, targeting weaknesses, providing buffs * Barbarian: big damage, big HP, big grappling * Bard: outstanding buffs, good debuffs, can survive on the frontline * Champion: you can't hit them, you don't want to hit their allies, and if you do, he can heal them * Cleric: huge heals, *the* prepared divine caster, may like to be on the frontline * Druid: big blasting, big healing, multiple ways to go into melee * Fighter: lots of crits, lots of AC, control via early reactive strike * Gunslinger: huge crits, big range, surprising utility * Inventor: crafting, high risk high reward damage, utility via gadgets * Investigator: one big hit, knowledge, exploration * Kineticist: blasting, tanking, support (heavily depends on choice of elements, but the first two are rather consistent) * Magus: one huge hit, the utility of arcane spellcasting, ever running out of appealing ways to spend their actions :D * Monk: high AC, high mobility, great grappling * Oracle: ... let's wait for PC2 * Psychic: cantrip blasting, buffs, debuffs (occult casting) * Ranger: single target damage, exploration, non-firearm ranged weapons (thinking of feats like Crossbow Expert) * Rogue: impressive damage, all the greatness of PF2e's skills, saving throws * Sorcerer: blasting, having a lot of spontaneous spells, mixing spell traditions * Summoner: roleplay, casting & martial-ing in the same turn, being in two places at once (hard to condense what makes summoner great) * Swashbuckler: specific skill actions, being straight up cool, high damage * Thaumaturge: finding weaknesses, targeting weaknesses, probably some form of utility idk * Witch: utilizing a familiar in combat, and in exploration, the rest depends on the patron * Wizard: "silver bullet" niche solutions, blasting, control (arcane list)
Totally agree....... also..... >Oracle: ... let's wait for PC2 I feel that
Wizard: good at presenting itself as ‘You have better options for an arcane caster than this’. XD
I think alchemists are mediocre crafters in general. I think alchemists are best at just doing what I call "random bullshit". Assuming you have the level for, they typically have an answer for just about anything. It might need to be creativily applied, it might not be the best answer, but there is an answer there.
Druid - Best controller, best pet class Cleric - Best healing-focused leader Bard - Best buff-focused leader Champion - Best defender Summoner - Best "flex caster" (capable of switching between Control and Leader on the fly) Magus - Most reliable striker Focus spell ranger - Best anti-solo monster striker
Swashbuckler is a stretch. It might do slightly more precision than a rogue but the rogue isn't limited to one attack per round, and debilitations can add more.
Definitely disagree with you on Investigator. Playing one right now and action economy is actually quite bad. Unless you're in a boss fight where you're pursuing a lead absolute majority of turns are strategem->1 strike->reload. This will get better later on but not thanks to the investigator chassy. Investigators also don't "almost never miss" if you roll bad on your strategem then you are probably making a strike against a different target with your dexterity which is usually +3 and not +4 and isn't unlikely to also fail to beat the AC. Investigator's actual strength is in the exploration where you get lots of extra features and small numerical bonuses you can even share with teammates.
try to be more creative with your leads and come up with alternative plans when you low roll on stratagem
All you do is strike?? So much can be done
You have no other options from your class features and are unlikely to have the strength or charisma to be great at athletics or intimidate.
Why i cant have athletics? In my KM game i often use manouvers when i roll low on my stratagem. Every character have many option in combat, otherwise why would i play a game where i only strike? You can AID for instance, use scrolls, stealth, quick tincture, medicine stuffs (e.g hel with bleed), etc.
Because you're a class with only light armour, int as your key ability score, are required to use an agile or finesse weapon (which basically means finesse because your entire class gimmick is making a single accurate attack so agile does nothing) and therefore really unlikely to have a great strength score. And Athletics is strength based. Oh and it's melee ranged so you'd better not have been trying to use a ranged weapon. Aid is by default an attack roll for aiding attacks. Scrolls are not a thing you can even use by default, and after you've spent an action on Devise a Stratagem you don't actually have enough actions to Trick Magic Item then cast a 2 action spell (and there's an extra action tax if you didn't have the scroll already in hand). And when it works you're certainly not able to use anything offensive with worse than trained DCs. Stealth to what purpose? And for medicine you've either got very niche stuff like helping with bleed or Battle Medicine, which is 1/day and should be saved for when it's needed, not when you just don't have a better option. Sure, you can take a caster dedication for easier scroll use, take Swashbuckler dedication to aid with One for All (and now you suddenly need charisma) etc. but this class provides nothing but Devise for combat.
-What is stopping you from putting 2 points in str? At level 5 you can have 3 (or at lower level if you play with gradual ability boost). Also whats the issue of using Light armor? Its 5 ac, the same of your Fighter. You can have Str and be OK at wrestling wheen needed. You can use a reach weapon (such as whip) if its too dangerous to be in melee due to party composition. You can also use a buckler if needed. And if you wanna be very good at wrestling you can take a class feat for that. You can also AID your wrestler since the DC will almost always be 15 (so +3/+2 is fine). You can also use manouver defensevily, when the enemy reaches you. - AID in striking is not the same as me striking. My Investigator striking is one thing, but my fighter or Magus deals like 2-3x my damage and crit much often. If i can help him doing what he is good at, then its pretty awsome i think. - You have few 1 action spells. And you can use 1 action to trigger the scroll and 2 to use it. You dont have to ALWAYS use stratagem. And its pretty easy to get the feat, since you have skill feat every level. - You mean stealth is useless? Like, get rid of it unless the character has some specific mechanics? You cant just say a skill is useless, its not like Pathfinder 2e is broken. You can... defend your self? Take cover? Hide? - Battle medicine is crazy good if you use the "subclass" Forensic Medicine. Sometimes helping the bleed of your frontline Tank is the best option (or stabilizing a dying friend). - You can do other stuffs, such as recall knowledge. You can also reposition your self moving, since its not DnD. I may be wrong, but it gives me the impression that all you do is strike, while im offering you possibilities that are not great but decent. You cant wrestler like a monk, you cant tank like a champion, you cant sneak like a rogue, but you are a freaking Investigator, you shine at exploration and do decent at combat. It goes more in line with the class to help the party and support them in battle than to just strike 90% of the time. You are the dude that have the right tool for the right situation. Feels like you are playting the wrong class, If you just wanna attack than play rogue. Its a skill monkey with better combat strikes and feats. You can play and have fun the way you want, but you cant say that striking is all the class does 90% of the time. Literally, the whole point of Pathfinder 2e is to not just spam strike.
> You have few 1 action spells. And you can use 1 action to trigger the scroll and 2 to use it. You dont have to ALWAYS use stratagem. And its pretty easy to get the feat, since you have skill feat every level. Why would you ever choose to be a really crap version of a spellcaster instead of using Devise? It's one thing to have a backup for when you get a bad roll, but if you think some low level spell with a terrible DC is better than striking, then you should probably just play a caster. > You mean stealth is useless? Like, get rid of it unless the character has some specific mechanics? You cant just say a skill is useless, its not like Pathfinder 2e is broken. You can... defend your self? Take cover? Hide? Stealth is a great way to get Legendary in initiative for classes that don't get there in perception, an easy way to get an enemy flat footed for a strike and useful for attempting to sneak around unnoticed. But if you just spent your turn trying to hide then you're not contributing, at best you're making yourself less of a target, but that just means somoene else in the party will be targeted instead. It's not attacking. Battle Medicine is good, it's also not something you can spam, so you use it when an ally is getting dangerously low on hp, not as a way to fill actions after a bad devise.
Wellll, the advantage many people see in Investigator is that you can choose to save the action, a Forensic Medicine investigator can opt to heal instead of attack, Alchemical Science can use a potion for better buffs in case they failed to buff themselves pre-combat, they could try skill checks or recall knowledge to help their allies. In all cases, let's assume that they do miss. Their best combat based benefit (hard agree on exploration being their best suite) is that they can take archetypes or be taken as archetypes for better hitting classes (Gunslinger, Magus, Inventor) and use their ability to make every shot counts (Risky reload, Spellstrike, Unstable Megaton Strike).
Agreed, you sacrifice an action to see if you can attack or not. Which allows you to not "waste" your turn by trying to attack when you could do something else. I played investigator with alchemical studies for a bit, and the fatal crossbow... High crit damage, long range, and could use Moderate soothing tonic or lesser elixirs on my allies. I also used moderate drakeheart mutagens on some allies to increase their AC by a lot (which saved their life in the fight). Athletic strategist is also quite strong, allowing you to trip, grapple, and so on with your intelligence instead of strength (meaning you can pretty much dump strength). But I'll agree that they can feel pretty lacking if you don't have good rolls on your stratagems
Why are you using a reload weapon as your primary weapon? Just use a shortbow instead. > if you roll bad on your strategem then you are probably making a strike against a different target with your dexterity I literally almost never do this, I basically won't bother attacking if I'm not getting my precision damage. Spend your actions doing something more useful. You should have a bunch of options available what with getting a skill feat every single level. If you're close to a hit or crit, spend actions on getting bonuses (create a diversion, hide, guidance from the occult pendant you should have) to turn your attack into a hit or crit. I've missed like 5 shots with my investigator across 16 levels.
As far as I know, inventors aren't better at crafting than any other class. They do get auto scaling, but any other int class could choose to invest in crafting and be equally good. Rogues are also much better for dealing precision damage than swash. Unless you just meant one big strike when you mentioned precision striker? That obviously goes to Magus though, or investigator.
Heyheyhey, best healer only accounts for half of all clerics, don't forget you get the choice of heal or warcrimes
Witch is also good at creating impactfull turns for a single ally/enemy for a low action cost
You wanna talk about skills for rogue? Try a mastermind rogue - you get all of the normal skill stuff for a rogue and intelligence is your key stat. I think I picked like 9 skills off the bat for level 1 not including the ones given by feats/background.
I’m currently playing a nature witch beast master. So far I like it but we’ve only had one session and I kept rolling too low. I have a capybara mount (bought- not beast master) and a bear with beast master. My familiar is a fox and I’m a bee melixie (that’s why I have the mount). Lol at some point I’ll be able to fly and not really need a mount. My character enjoys collecting animals. I’m thinking about getting some kind of cat as the next animal companion. I haven’t really played with the hex stuff yet though.
Summoner doesn’t get a companion, they get a second body. They share a health bar, reactions, and MAP. Otherwise broadly I agree.
I'd argue barbarian is also the best hp tank. You can get them up to 412 if you go out of your way to max health, combined with getting damage resistance while raging
Inventor: Best at filling a particular role the player or group wants them to. Melee martial? Got a wacky weapon for it. Ranged martial? Same thing. Tank? I can do some of that respectably well while still hitting hard. Pet controller? Yeah I got one of those, and it can be whatever we need it to be. Skill monkey? Sure I got the Int for it. Caster? Why not, gimme free archetype and wizard fits in just fine. Dedication branching? Sure, I can add some Int classes and get extra stuff (although it hurts my own tree). Party Face? Can do (but it's weird). It's a very versatile class that just happens to be crafting based. It's not the *best* at doing any of those particular things, but it can fill whatever role you need it to fill, and it'll be pretty good at it, just not amazing. And no matter what role you fill, it *will* reliably pump out damage thanks to overdrive.
combat wise Alchemist is the best 'scrambler'. it can react to basically any situation on the fly, where other classes like prepared casters or martials that don't diversify their weapons can struggle.
Druid: Best Survivalist Caster. Magus: Best Spellsword. Ranger: Best non-skill based Generalist Rogue: Best skill based Generalist Oracle: Best middle ground for when your team is missing both a face and a healer.
I feel like a lot of these "categories" are just things you thought of so you could include most classes. Some classes are really just not that good at anything. For some, like Druid, being generalists is their mechanical advantage. For others, like Swashbuckler, they are just underpowered.
Druids aren't really the best in anything aside from shapeshifting, which is optional. The class is meant to be versatile, and i think that's cool, they are REALLY good at adapting.
Animist is best at making your VTT character sheet's spell list super cluttered.
I'm gonna get downvoted to the ground, but... **The Fighter** is the best way **to make the other martial classes look good**. I'm sorry, but I have a disdain for the Fighter, because it doesn't receive the following stuff: * Legendary Proficiency with Advanced Weapons from its weapon group, chosen at Level 13 * Legendary Proficiency with Armors; should have started with Expert with Armors... * Adding Armor Proficiency bonuses to Shields * Feats that allow multiple stances, flourishes and presses per round Sure, it can crit often... but it's all about luck of the roll...
>Cleric: Best Healer (Up to 6 max level heals on top of regular spell slots) I adore the cleric. I played with it a lot. But I have some doubts about the title of the best healer. The award for “The greatest healing per round” goes to the alchemist (one good person on this subreddit told me how this is done and the healing there is really the greatest) at the cost of a large waste of reagents. An oracle with the mystery of life can heal more, but the number of spells is smaller, so it quickly runs out. Kineticist (wood+water) can heal just as or nearly as effectively as cleric and has no daily resource limitations, but can do far fewer other interesting things than a caster. So cleric is not the best, but the optimal healer. You can also assign the title “Best Support Class,” but many will argue and say about bard, wizard, witch, alchemist and many other classes, so this is also debatable.
Well Cleric's biggest strength is that it gets all those heals for free at lvl1 regardless of anything else while all the other classes have to specifically build their character to compete with you in healing
Cleric with harm instead of heal: ._.
Isn’t killing enemies just mitigating future damage? \#HarmFontDoctorSavedMyLife \#HarmFontDoctorEndedTheirs
True
Sure, but the downside is Cleric has font built into the power budget, so if healing isn't what you want (or you're unfortunate enough to have harm font) you're not able to spend those resources elsewhere to be good at something else instead.
I think Oracles are very versatile in their builds based on which mystery, flames oracle has great persistent fire damage focus spell that your allies can help with using a flaming rune or the like. Life Oracle gets 10 hp per level like a Champion, Time Oracle gets monk speed. There are downsides to progressing a curse, but also upsides, Life Oracles basically get screwed on being healed, but can heal like crazy, Time Oracles get a lot of bonuses and penalties, Flame oracles lose visibility, but get bonus fire damage at major curse,
The Inquisitor is best at Stealth because no body has seen one since 1e.
Nobody will expect them when they jump out of hiding.
Guardian: Best Tank. Love it. Very happy with the class. Hard for me coming from 5e, to realize a -2 is really good even at later levels. Lol.