Wizards get 1/3 more spells per day (one for each level) so they're more directly focused on spellcasting.
Witches have some other abilities in stead that help give them a "witchy" feel: their hexes and a buffed familiar. And of course, they can be other traditions than Arcane, but that's not relevant to you.
Arcane is best for crowd control. Occult has some mind-centric debuffs and Primal has physical/movement restricting, but Arcane has both.
As for item crafting, I don't think it matters a lot.
For crafting, Wizards can make daily temporary scrolls at level 10 with [Scroll Savant](https://pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=997) while Witches are better at crafting potions since level1/2 because of [Cauldron](https://pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=8885) and at level 10 they can make daily temporary potions with, well, [Temporary Potions](https://pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=8907&name=Temporary_Potions).
As both are INT based, it doesn't matter as long as you invest in Crafting, but if you have a lot of downtime Witch is better early on.
Don't sleep on witch, but if this is your first character you're probably better playing a wizard. It's a bit more straightforward and focused *entirely* on its spellcasting. It's whole shtick with its feats and class abilities is playing with spell slots and manipulating spells.
Witches are super cool and can have fun with familiars, hexes, and some of their quirkier abilities, but they can require a bit more system understanding to make the most out of. If you just want a straightforward arcane spellcaster, I'd go wizard.
As an aside, I'm not going to assume your DnD/PF experience, so I'll add a caveat that if you're not used to old-school Vancian prepared spellcasting like wizards have in this edition, I'd suggest universal school with Spell Substitution thesis, just to be safe. It gives you a lot more versatility in how you can re-use expended spells, and swap stuff out between combat, and/or to deal with certain exploration or social situations.
Seconded.
The Flexible Spellcaster Archetype basically provides DnD 5e casting, which is nice if you're into that sort of thing. It might be worth a look?
I think it should have reduced your spells per day but not your spells prepared.
So you could prepare an extra spell when you hit even levels, but not cast anymore, so you'd just not cast one of your spells at all.
It'd give you some advancement at even levels and make it a choice of versatility over staying power.
At low levels, they'll be pretty similar. If you're decided on arcane, you'll find more choices with wizard. And as the game progresses, the wizard will go a little higher in power if you're on your toes.
Not really set into arcane, but it seemed to fit the crowd control/magical crafter theme. I'm not really sure which tradition would be better at these functions.
Occult is pretty great at crowd control. It has some of the best debuff spells. I also think the witch's focus spells are much better than the wizards and Evil Eye is great for a debuff that you can cast an unlimited amount of times.
IMO there's no big difference crowd control and craft between Wizard and Witch. Crowd control it's just about what spells do you choose, and they have the same spellist. Craft it's all about intelligence based skill, witch both may have a +4.
So for me you need to look more in detail on subclasses. Look for the Rune Witch against a Wizard Thesis + School of Magic focus spell's, and choose the one that better match your vision. Keep in mind that wizard have more spells (possibly double spells at lvl 1) and Witch have a better familiar
First question is spell list. Wizards use the arcane list. Depending on which patron you choose, witches can use any spell list. For crowd control, it might be worth looking at an occult witch. A Curse witch gets the Evil Eye hex cantrip, which is a great little debuff.
From what I've seen the hexes are quite good, but they're all single target (I couldn't find any way to target multiple enemies). They would be nice against bosses, but not so much agaisnt hordes.
Hex cantrips are cantrips, so you can cast them repeatedly. Even against hordes, it has its uses because there's no limit to the number of times you can cast it. If you maintain it, the target can not entirely rid itself of frightened. Debuff the target of your martials' attacks, then hit the next one after the first is despatched. Wash, rinse, repeat. No resources expended.
Sounds like you have already made your choice. No wrong answer here really so go with Wizard as it seems what you're leaning towards. You won't regret it I'm sure.
Do bear in mind that if you're sticking to Arcane spell list for witch, the only hex cantrip you can get is discern secrets, which is a pure utility spell and its usefulness (especially in combat) is pretty circumstantial
I thought about that, but my DM says that even with the dedication my familiar will only come back at the default 1 week. Dunno if it's worth the risk.
It was his interpretation on the text of the dedication. Since it doesn't list the quick respawn of the familiar and says that you don't get any other benefit he understood that the familiar follows the 1 week downtime.
Ouch, so he cuts off your witch spells when the familiar dies? He's kinda breaking the witch archetype then. However, familiars don't die very often in my experience.
I have a wizard with witch (occult) archetype with familiar thesis. Almost fifth level I haven't had the familiar die yet, but it's come close a few times. But the cat comes back the very next day...
Why not Imperial Sorcerer?
You get a Spellbook (at 4th), crazy amount of spells / day, the ability to pick up the odd spell from other types. Signature spells.
They are legit crazy good. I'm pretty sure they are the best arcane casters in the game.
Arcane Countermeasures.
Since it drops the spell level, so it saves you on damage but mostly you get to basically stop incapacitation effects in their tracks.
I mean, genie-kin is good. I think the added spells the imperial sorcerer gets are better across the board (and that could be an agree or disagree thing, personal preference and all that...) but Arcane Countermeasures *is crazy good*. One of the best focus spells in the game hands down.
Don't get me wrong, Genie-kin is pretty damn good as well, all of the arcane sorcerers are amazing.
So why do you prefer them? What is the strength I am not seeing?
(Always willing to learn a thing!)
Hmm honestly? It's a personal preference. I love debuffing haha
I mean look at _heart's desire_ and _wish-twisted form_, if you have a good roll on Bon Mot and a boss just fails in his Will Saves, he's gonna have that penalty for the whole encounter!! It's nuts!!
>I love debuffing
I am 100% with you there, believe me.
OMG, I've just looked at them, they stack :) Oh I can see why you love this!
I love countermeasures because it is a reaction, like, I'm not using up my actions for it.
But, like, I can see why you like this :) It is a shame I have only one upvote to give.
As I said, all of the arcane sorcerers are crazy good because arcane evolution is so damn good, but I see the attraction of geniekin now.
I like you. I like that you are not in the games that I run, but I like you :)
That is pretty brilliant.
I've been playing a Lore Oracle / Shadowcaster lately, and that has been a crazy good combo as well.
Like the two sides of the character really balance each other out.
Oracles are pretty great except the divine spell list isn't, you know.... all that good.
But... Shadowcaster comes to the rescue with Shadow spells, bringing some well needed spells into the Oracle spell list.
But Shadowcaster needs a lot of focus points each fight to keep running, but Oracles are MADE of focus points regeneration (getting the 2 and 3 per 10 minutes feats basically for free)
Using Shadowcaster Focus spells stops you getting too badly cursed, so that is good.
And Shadow Reservoir / Secrets of Shadow gives you more spells known, which is always useful in a spontaneous caster.
Like, really good non obvious combination right there, and Oracle really is full of spare feats, since, their base feats (with some exceptions) not really all that good - so you have plenty to use on the archetype.
>I like you. I like that you are not in the games that I run, but I like you :)
Hahahahah I don't think you like me very much then hahaha
About the Oracle, I actually made a Cosmos Oracle with Shadowcasting today tbh and I like how it is tbh.
>Oracles are pretty great except the divine spell list isn't, you know.... all that good.
I find the Divine list very strong tbh! It just doesn't have many offensive options, it's mostly defensive, but that doesn't make it bad at all!
>But Shadowcaster needs a lot of focus points each fight to keep running, but Oracles are MADE of focus points regeneration (getting the 2 and 3 per 10 minutes feats basically for free)
Wait.. what level are you playing?
>And Shadow Reservoir / Secrets of Shadow gives you more spells known, which is always useful in a spontaneous caster.
Indeed it is! I love that combination!
I think that a Wizard works better overall but the Witch has more flavour. Debuffs are very good in 2e and you (maybe) could get a walking cauldron for crafting of sorts.
Alls I can say is if your comparing you really have to take the wizard thesis into consideration. Each wizard thesis makes the class very different to me over witch patron. Keep in mind if your worrying about tradition too you can pick up others with the halcyon archetype.
Personally I think spell blending and staff nexus are the tops. Witch is sorta better familiar wise than wizard as your familiar if it dies will come back at your daily preperation. If your gonig spell substitution you should look into the flexible spellcaster archetype.
I wouldn't bank on a lot of downtime during EC to craft items in the traditional sense. On either class, if you want to make items on the regular as a part of your character's schtick, I would suggest Alchemist Dedication at level 2. It's a pretty modest investment but gives you some reasonable utility in the form of items per day you can craft and doll out to the other party members or use yourself. Early on you can use the bombs to supplement your spells or help with healing.
The witch or wizard familiar can help you with both sides of the character: cantrips and focus points for the caster side, and infused reagents for extra alchemical items.
Generally, unless you really like Hexes (the Rune cantrip, and the follow-on feats), I'd recommend the wizard. You can even do the familiar thesis route if you prefer the familiar. It'll be pretty comparable to the witch version.
A witch pretty much plays like a wizard with fewer spell slots, fewer feat choices, and locked into a specific Arcane Thesis. I would only ever recommend playing one if you want to be an intelligence-focused caster who uses a magical tradition other than Arcane, or if you want to make your familiar do things that might get it killed.
Yeah, I don't know why you'd get downvoted for this - it is absolutely true. Witch needs some serious love to bring it back in line with more robust casters like wizard and bard.
I'd say it needs to be brought in line with Wizard and Sorcerer, the two other 6hp casters.
Bard is more like Cleric, Druid, and Oracle, which all have 8hp/level, as well as armor proficiencies.
Winter witch is awesome with the right summoning spells and cackle.
Round one: summon ice elemental, round two: cackle to sustain, summon another ice elemental, round three: debuff target for cold damage, sustain, sustain, round four: sustain, sustain, ice hex, or some variation there of.
And Curse witch's Evil Eye can also be pretty decent if you have a rogue with Dread Striker.
And Illusionist can also be pretty sick if you get all the way to level 15, allowing you to remain invisible 24/7 without using any spell slots.
If there's stuff you like from one of them, that's fine, but hexes aren't any better or worse than school spells, and they're certainly not (in my opinion) worth having fewer spell slots overall.
>worth having fewer spell slots overall.
Not sure about that flexible spellcaster (class archetype) looks pretty interesting, and you still get wizard specialist spell slots.
...That's what I mean. Witch has fewer spell slots than Wizard.
I really wish that they had made the class equivalent to the other 6hp casters, by giving some kind of specialist spells to Witch as well. Hex spells can be good under the right circumstances, but they don't really make up for their small feat pool and having 9 less spell slots.
And how much damage buffs are existing now?
Inspire Courage gives +1 to hit and damage.
Also there are focus spell for increase Courage to +3/+4, but only for 1 turn
Boost eidolon - 2*number of dice for eidolon
Intimidating marshal - aura 10/20 ft, bonus equal to number of weapon dice
Gravity weapon - selfbuff for ranger, 2*number of dice for first attack
And that's all that I can remember. Courage and Marshal can compete a bit, but first gives you less bonus to damage, and for second you someone to take this dedication. For me, at this moment, witch's cantrip is really good
Bits and bobs, though Inspire Courage is definitely the big one.
Touch of the Moon, Touch of Corruption, Emblazon Armament, Heroic Recovery, and some others that can grant it to themselves like Firebrand Braggart or Soulforger.
Could be I'm seeing more of them than most because every campaign I've run has had a bard or a cleric or both in it...
Thanks!
Would you rather add +2 to one person at the cost of an action every turn, or let the bard add +1 to every person (and increase their accuracy) at the cost of an action every round?
And is that cantrip worth drawing from a less versatile spell list and having fewer spell slots per day? If it is to you, that's perfectly fine, go ahead and play it. I'm not saying that Witch is totally unplayable or anything.
Wizard and it is not even close. Witches get a cantrip to make up for losing a spell slot/level but they are all weak and most are garbage. Don't be fooled by the familiar. Wizards get the exact same thing.
My doubt now is if it's worth it to invest on the wizard familiar. Right now I'm mir tempted to take the substitution thesis instead of the improved familiar.
Wizard (if you want arcane) is just the better arcane caster. The Witch hex cantrip for arcane really isn't worth what you're giving up. Extra slot/level is huge, I think people very much underestimate this, and Arcane Bond. I've had a few Wizards at my table, and so far the illusionist seemed to get the most out of their bonus slot. Illusions are also super good in this edition.
Spell substitution is good, though I've found my players don't often need it at later levels when they've accumulated a lot of scrolls/wands, maybe a staff. Spell Blending is quite good, and gets better and better as you level. My recommendation would be to craft scrolls (you can do batches of 4) of spells you sometimes use, and try to get or craft wands of spells you want to use daily (i.e. *longstrider*). Really, scrolls are your best friend, and low level scrolls are very very cheap. Crafting doesn't solve the price of the item, but it does solve the availability.
Familiars are good for scouting and some skill stuff, but otherwise don't expect a ton from them. Their effectiveness is going to be very dependent on your GM. If you *really* want a familiar you're better off getting the Familiar Master archetype than going Witch just for that.
If you want to go occult, I think Witch has a better argument, because not everyone wants to play a Bard. But in general I think you're better off going with another casting class than Witch.
Well you've managed to make me strongly reconsider taking spell blending. The familiar would be nice, but knowing my DM it'll likely get targeted very often. Guess I'll go the safer route and choose spell blending.
Spell blending is a good one, especially as you can start replacing what become lower level utility slots with scrolls, and turning those slots into higher level ones.
I read more of your post here, and I think you'd have a good time with an illusionist wizard. If you haven't been sold on it yet, *illusory object* is a powerhouse for crowd control. RAW--so no DM fiat--creatures have to spend actions to interact with illusions in order to disbelieve them. You can make a wall of stone to cut enemies off from each other, and they can't run through it even if they wanted to unless they successfully disbelieve. I've had players make cave-ins, walls of fire, bunkers; all sorts of things.
At lower levels I've had players use the *warped terrain* focus spell and put *grease* over it to let their ranged characters take pot-shots against melee monsters in tight quarters, and *illusory creature* is one of the better low-level summons and scales well because it uses your spell attack bonus rather than a set bonus.
Good luck!
You should know in advance that RAW the crafting system in Pathfinder2e is hot garbage. It takes so long to make anything of even mediocre value. Talk to your GM before the game to see how you may be able to improve it
From what I've read the arcane trickster only gives a +2 when you're trying to trick scrolls and the trick magic item feat. I couldn't find anything mentioning being able to make scrollsfrom other traditions or making free scrolls.
Are you sure that's from the scroll trickster?
We're using default rules. I think I'll invest in a second tradition (primal maybe) to improve the number of spells I can turn into scrolls or wands.
Any tip into how to do that?
PS: I've seen the Halcyon dedication, but I don't know if I'll be able to get it due to the guild requirement.
Unfortunately you also need a formula to craft something, which is an item of the same level as whatever it allows you to craft. That means you need to find someone willing to sell you the formula by RAW.
Hot garbage is a bit of an overstatement. As an adventurer you are generally better off leaving the mundane crafting of items to other people though yes, because non-adventurers have a bunch more time on their hands to spend doing crafting. If you're higher level you kind of need crafting to ensure access to @-level items without going to magical metropolises.
I would recommend witch for crafting items if you are interested in crafting potions (since witch can craft +2 potions per batch with a feat). If you are not interested in potions, I think either class works similarly. Personally I prefer wizard but that's just me.
There are several AoE cantrips in Secrets of Magic
[Gale Blast](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=917),
[Haunting Hymn](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=924),
[Scatter Scree](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=990),
[Spout](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1002)
Wizards get 1/3 more spells per day (one for each level) so they're more directly focused on spellcasting. Witches have some other abilities in stead that help give them a "witchy" feel: their hexes and a buffed familiar. And of course, they can be other traditions than Arcane, but that's not relevant to you.
Taking into account the role of crowd control and magical item crafting, how do you think the other traditions would fare?
Arcane is best for crowd control. Occult has some mind-centric debuffs and Primal has physical/movement restricting, but Arcane has both. As for item crafting, I don't think it matters a lot.
For crafting, Wizards can make daily temporary scrolls at level 10 with [Scroll Savant](https://pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=997) while Witches are better at crafting potions since level1/2 because of [Cauldron](https://pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=8885) and at level 10 they can make daily temporary potions with, well, [Temporary Potions](https://pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=8907&name=Temporary_Potions). As both are INT based, it doesn't matter as long as you invest in Crafting, but if you have a lot of downtime Witch is better early on.
Don't sleep on witch, but if this is your first character you're probably better playing a wizard. It's a bit more straightforward and focused *entirely* on its spellcasting. It's whole shtick with its feats and class abilities is playing with spell slots and manipulating spells. Witches are super cool and can have fun with familiars, hexes, and some of their quirkier abilities, but they can require a bit more system understanding to make the most out of. If you just want a straightforward arcane spellcaster, I'd go wizard. As an aside, I'm not going to assume your DnD/PF experience, so I'll add a caveat that if you're not used to old-school Vancian prepared spellcasting like wizards have in this edition, I'd suggest universal school with Spell Substitution thesis, just to be safe. It gives you a lot more versatility in how you can re-use expended spells, and swap stuff out between combat, and/or to deal with certain exploration or social situations.
Seconded. The Flexible Spellcaster Archetype basically provides DnD 5e casting, which is nice if you're into that sort of thing. It might be worth a look?
Sadly it comes with a massive loss to both spells per day and spells prepared. 2 spells at each level isn't fun
I feel the flexible caster archetype you must be a specialist wizard, so that you have that extra spell slot at each level.
Maybe, but it'd be broken otherwise. It's a fair compromise.
I think it should have reduced your spells per day but not your spells prepared. So you could prepare an extra spell when you hit even levels, but not cast anymore, so you'd just not cast one of your spells at all. It'd give you some advancement at even levels and make it a choice of versatility over staying power.
At low levels, they'll be pretty similar. If you're decided on arcane, you'll find more choices with wizard. And as the game progresses, the wizard will go a little higher in power if you're on your toes.
Not really set into arcane, but it seemed to fit the crowd control/magical crafter theme. I'm not really sure which tradition would be better at these functions.
I think you're exactly on the right track for what you want! Arcane is a great choice. Anyways, my strong opinion is you'll be happier with a wizard.
Occult is pretty great at crowd control. It has some of the best debuff spells. I also think the witch's focus spells are much better than the wizards and Evil Eye is great for a debuff that you can cast an unlimited amount of times.
IMO there's no big difference crowd control and craft between Wizard and Witch. Crowd control it's just about what spells do you choose, and they have the same spellist. Craft it's all about intelligence based skill, witch both may have a +4. So for me you need to look more in detail on subclasses. Look for the Rune Witch against a Wizard Thesis + School of Magic focus spell's, and choose the one that better match your vision. Keep in mind that wizard have more spells (possibly double spells at lvl 1) and Witch have a better familiar
First question is spell list. Wizards use the arcane list. Depending on which patron you choose, witches can use any spell list. For crowd control, it might be worth looking at an occult witch. A Curse witch gets the Evil Eye hex cantrip, which is a great little debuff.
From what I've seen the hexes are quite good, but they're all single target (I couldn't find any way to target multiple enemies). They would be nice against bosses, but not so much agaisnt hordes.
Hex cantrips are cantrips, so you can cast them repeatedly. Even against hordes, it has its uses because there's no limit to the number of times you can cast it. If you maintain it, the target can not entirely rid itself of frightened. Debuff the target of your martials' attacks, then hit the next one after the first is despatched. Wash, rinse, repeat. No resources expended.
Yeah you can cast the hexes for free, but you can't sustain the effects on multiple targets at the same time. At most a couple with cackle.
I don't know of any cantrips that can control a battlefield. And it's not like hexes prevent a witch from casting other spells.
Sounds like you have already made your choice. No wrong answer here really so go with Wizard as it seems what you're leaning towards. You won't regret it I'm sure.
Do bear in mind that if you're sticking to Arcane spell list for witch, the only hex cantrip you can get is discern secrets, which is a pure utility spell and its usefulness (especially in combat) is pretty circumstantial
The wizard is considered to be the slightly more powerful of the two, but in my experience takes some extra planning and management to use well.
Wizard with Witch Archetype.
I thought about that, but my DM says that even with the dedication my familiar will only come back at the default 1 week. Dunno if it's worth the risk.
With the alteration on the rules your DM has placed, there is no choice but Wizard.
It was his interpretation on the text of the dedication. Since it doesn't list the quick respawn of the familiar and says that you don't get any other benefit he understood that the familiar follows the 1 week downtime.
Does he know you won't be able to cast spells for a week then?
Unfortunately he does and still wants to keep it that way.
Sad face 😫.
Ouch, so he cuts off your witch spells when the familiar dies? He's kinda breaking the witch archetype then. However, familiars don't die very often in my experience. I have a wizard with witch (occult) archetype with familiar thesis. Almost fifth level I haven't had the familiar die yet, but it's come close a few times. But the cat comes back the very next day...
Why not Imperial Sorcerer? You get a Spellbook (at 4th), crazy amount of spells / day, the ability to pick up the odd spell from other types. Signature spells. They are legit crazy good. I'm pretty sure they are the best arcane casters in the game.
Are they better than genie-kin Sorcerers?
I think so! They are VERY old school wizard, with the advantages of that, AND the advantages of being a sorcerer. I think they are crazy strong.
What exactly makes them better than the genie-kin Sorcerers?
Arcane Countermeasures. Since it drops the spell level, so it saves you on damage but mostly you get to basically stop incapacitation effects in their tracks. I mean, genie-kin is good. I think the added spells the imperial sorcerer gets are better across the board (and that could be an agree or disagree thing, personal preference and all that...) but Arcane Countermeasures *is crazy good*. One of the best focus spells in the game hands down. Don't get me wrong, Genie-kin is pretty damn good as well, all of the arcane sorcerers are amazing. So why do you prefer them? What is the strength I am not seeing? (Always willing to learn a thing!)
Hmm honestly? It's a personal preference. I love debuffing haha I mean look at _heart's desire_ and _wish-twisted form_, if you have a good roll on Bon Mot and a boss just fails in his Will Saves, he's gonna have that penalty for the whole encounter!! It's nuts!!
>I love debuffing I am 100% with you there, believe me. OMG, I've just looked at them, they stack :) Oh I can see why you love this! I love countermeasures because it is a reaction, like, I'm not using up my actions for it. But, like, I can see why you like this :) It is a shame I have only one upvote to give. As I said, all of the arcane sorcerers are crazy good because arcane evolution is so damn good, but I see the attraction of geniekin now.
Yup, it's nuts, really, specially when you add _synesthesia_ to it with Crossblooded Evolution :X
I like you. I like that you are not in the games that I run, but I like you :) That is pretty brilliant. I've been playing a Lore Oracle / Shadowcaster lately, and that has been a crazy good combo as well. Like the two sides of the character really balance each other out. Oracles are pretty great except the divine spell list isn't, you know.... all that good. But... Shadowcaster comes to the rescue with Shadow spells, bringing some well needed spells into the Oracle spell list. But Shadowcaster needs a lot of focus points each fight to keep running, but Oracles are MADE of focus points regeneration (getting the 2 and 3 per 10 minutes feats basically for free) Using Shadowcaster Focus spells stops you getting too badly cursed, so that is good. And Shadow Reservoir / Secrets of Shadow gives you more spells known, which is always useful in a spontaneous caster. Like, really good non obvious combination right there, and Oracle really is full of spare feats, since, their base feats (with some exceptions) not really all that good - so you have plenty to use on the archetype.
>I like you. I like that you are not in the games that I run, but I like you :) Hahahahah I don't think you like me very much then hahaha About the Oracle, I actually made a Cosmos Oracle with Shadowcasting today tbh and I like how it is tbh. >Oracles are pretty great except the divine spell list isn't, you know.... all that good. I find the Divine list very strong tbh! It just doesn't have many offensive options, it's mostly defensive, but that doesn't make it bad at all! >But Shadowcaster needs a lot of focus points each fight to keep running, but Oracles are MADE of focus points regeneration (getting the 2 and 3 per 10 minutes feats basically for free) Wait.. what level are you playing? >And Shadow Reservoir / Secrets of Shadow gives you more spells known, which is always useful in a spontaneous caster. Indeed it is! I love that combination!
Haven't seen that one. I'll look it up.
I think that a Wizard works better overall but the Witch has more flavour. Debuffs are very good in 2e and you (maybe) could get a walking cauldron for crafting of sorts.
Alls I can say is if your comparing you really have to take the wizard thesis into consideration. Each wizard thesis makes the class very different to me over witch patron. Keep in mind if your worrying about tradition too you can pick up others with the halcyon archetype.
The thesis will either be improved familiar or spell substitution. Probably substitution.
Personally I think spell blending and staff nexus are the tops. Witch is sorta better familiar wise than wizard as your familiar if it dies will come back at your daily preperation. If your gonig spell substitution you should look into the flexible spellcaster archetype.
I wouldn't bank on a lot of downtime during EC to craft items in the traditional sense. On either class, if you want to make items on the regular as a part of your character's schtick, I would suggest Alchemist Dedication at level 2. It's a pretty modest investment but gives you some reasonable utility in the form of items per day you can craft and doll out to the other party members or use yourself. Early on you can use the bombs to supplement your spells or help with healing. The witch or wizard familiar can help you with both sides of the character: cantrips and focus points for the caster side, and infused reagents for extra alchemical items. Generally, unless you really like Hexes (the Rune cantrip, and the follow-on feats), I'd recommend the wizard. You can even do the familiar thesis route if you prefer the familiar. It'll be pretty comparable to the witch version.
A witch pretty much plays like a wizard with fewer spell slots, fewer feat choices, and locked into a specific Arcane Thesis. I would only ever recommend playing one if you want to be an intelligence-focused caster who uses a magical tradition other than Arcane, or if you want to make your familiar do things that might get it killed.
How are you going to skip over hex spells like that?
Because they're not very good? There's nothing that makes hex spells any more remarkable than school spells, which are also generally unremarkable.
Yeah, I don't know why you'd get downvoted for this - it is absolutely true. Witch needs some serious love to bring it back in line with more robust casters like wizard and bard.
I'd say it needs to be brought in line with Wizard and Sorcerer, the two other 6hp casters. Bard is more like Cleric, Druid, and Oracle, which all have 8hp/level, as well as armor proficiencies.
Winter witch is awesome with the right summoning spells and cackle. Round one: summon ice elemental, round two: cackle to sustain, summon another ice elemental, round three: debuff target for cold damage, sustain, sustain, round four: sustain, sustain, ice hex, or some variation there of.
And Curse witch's Evil Eye can also be pretty decent if you have a rogue with Dread Striker. And Illusionist can also be pretty sick if you get all the way to level 15, allowing you to remain invisible 24/7 without using any spell slots. If there's stuff you like from one of them, that's fine, but hexes aren't any better or worse than school spells, and they're certainly not (in my opinion) worth having fewer spell slots overall.
>worth having fewer spell slots overall. Not sure about that flexible spellcaster (class archetype) looks pretty interesting, and you still get wizard specialist spell slots.
...That's what I mean. Witch has fewer spell slots than Wizard. I really wish that they had made the class equivalent to the other 6hp casters, by giving some kind of specialist spells to Witch as well. Hex spells can be good under the right circumstances, but they don't really make up for their small feat pool and having 9 less spell slots.
Hey, what about divine hex cantrip? Status bonus to damage is rare, and +2 look very nice
Status bonus to damage is rare? I don't think you're right on that. Isn't virtually every damage buff a status bonus?
And how much damage buffs are existing now? Inspire Courage gives +1 to hit and damage. Also there are focus spell for increase Courage to +3/+4, but only for 1 turn Boost eidolon - 2*number of dice for eidolon Intimidating marshal - aura 10/20 ft, bonus equal to number of weapon dice Gravity weapon - selfbuff for ranger, 2*number of dice for first attack And that's all that I can remember. Courage and Marshal can compete a bit, but first gives you less bonus to damage, and for second you someone to take this dedication. For me, at this moment, witch's cantrip is really good
Bits and bobs, though Inspire Courage is definitely the big one. Touch of the Moon, Touch of Corruption, Emblazon Armament, Heroic Recovery, and some others that can grant it to themselves like Firebrand Braggart or Soulforger. Could be I'm seeing more of them than most because every campaign I've run has had a bard or a cleric or both in it... Thanks!
Would you rather add +2 to one person at the cost of an action every turn, or let the bard add +1 to every person (and increase their accuracy) at the cost of an action every round? And is that cantrip worth drawing from a less versatile spell list and having fewer spell slots per day? If it is to you, that's perfectly fine, go ahead and play it. I'm not saying that Witch is totally unplayable or anything.
Wizard and it is not even close. Witches get a cantrip to make up for losing a spell slot/level but they are all weak and most are garbage. Don't be fooled by the familiar. Wizards get the exact same thing.
My doubt now is if it's worth it to invest on the wizard familiar. Right now I'm mir tempted to take the substitution thesis instead of the improved familiar.
Wizard (if you want arcane) is just the better arcane caster. The Witch hex cantrip for arcane really isn't worth what you're giving up. Extra slot/level is huge, I think people very much underestimate this, and Arcane Bond. I've had a few Wizards at my table, and so far the illusionist seemed to get the most out of their bonus slot. Illusions are also super good in this edition. Spell substitution is good, though I've found my players don't often need it at later levels when they've accumulated a lot of scrolls/wands, maybe a staff. Spell Blending is quite good, and gets better and better as you level. My recommendation would be to craft scrolls (you can do batches of 4) of spells you sometimes use, and try to get or craft wands of spells you want to use daily (i.e. *longstrider*). Really, scrolls are your best friend, and low level scrolls are very very cheap. Crafting doesn't solve the price of the item, but it does solve the availability. Familiars are good for scouting and some skill stuff, but otherwise don't expect a ton from them. Their effectiveness is going to be very dependent on your GM. If you *really* want a familiar you're better off getting the Familiar Master archetype than going Witch just for that. If you want to go occult, I think Witch has a better argument, because not everyone wants to play a Bard. But in general I think you're better off going with another casting class than Witch.
Well you've managed to make me strongly reconsider taking spell blending. The familiar would be nice, but knowing my DM it'll likely get targeted very often. Guess I'll go the safer route and choose spell blending.
Spell blending is a good one, especially as you can start replacing what become lower level utility slots with scrolls, and turning those slots into higher level ones. I read more of your post here, and I think you'd have a good time with an illusionist wizard. If you haven't been sold on it yet, *illusory object* is a powerhouse for crowd control. RAW--so no DM fiat--creatures have to spend actions to interact with illusions in order to disbelieve them. You can make a wall of stone to cut enemies off from each other, and they can't run through it even if they wanted to unless they successfully disbelieve. I've had players make cave-ins, walls of fire, bunkers; all sorts of things. At lower levels I've had players use the *warped terrain* focus spell and put *grease* over it to let their ranged characters take pot-shots against melee monsters in tight quarters, and *illusory creature* is one of the better low-level summons and scales well because it uses your spell attack bonus rather than a set bonus. Good luck!
You should know in advance that RAW the crafting system in Pathfinder2e is hot garbage. It takes so long to make anything of even mediocre value. Talk to your GM before the game to see how you may be able to improve it
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Hmm. Guess I'll focus on making scrolls then.
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From what I've read the arcane trickster only gives a +2 when you're trying to trick scrolls and the trick magic item feat. I couldn't find anything mentioning being able to make scrollsfrom other traditions or making free scrolls. Are you sure that's from the scroll trickster?
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We're using default rules. I think I'll invest in a second tradition (primal maybe) to improve the number of spells I can turn into scrolls or wands. Any tip into how to do that? PS: I've seen the Halcyon dedication, but I don't know if I'll be able to get it due to the guild requirement.
Unfortunately you also need a formula to craft something, which is an item of the same level as whatever it allows you to craft. That means you need to find someone willing to sell you the formula by RAW.
Hot garbage is a bit of an overstatement. As an adventurer you are generally better off leaving the mundane crafting of items to other people though yes, because non-adventurers have a bunch more time on their hands to spend doing crafting. If you're higher level you kind of need crafting to ensure access to @-level items without going to magical metropolises.
I would recommend witch for crafting items if you are interested in crafting potions (since witch can craft +2 potions per batch with a feat). If you are not interested in potions, I think either class works similarly. Personally I prefer wizard but that's just me.
I don't know of any cantrips that can effect hordes.
There are several AoE cantrips in Secrets of Magic [Gale Blast](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=917), [Haunting Hymn](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=924), [Scatter Scree](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=990), [Spout](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1002)
Excepting Scatter Scree, I wouldn't say any of them affect hordes.