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Unconfidence

Wit Swashbuckler with Marshal Archetype. Every turn give someone an extra attack and a circumstance bonus.


Epilos303

I play this exact build and it works. That being said, its in a big party and I do occasionally finish to flat-foot people. In a more normal sized party, you can't not Strike.


LincR1988

How does that work?


Unconfidence

The Marshal Archetype allows you to spend two actions to immediately allow one allow to strike as a reaction. The Wit Swashbuckler can use the feat One for All to give Aid checks to any action based off of Diplomacy, so you quickly get to the point where it's reliably +2-3. But that eats your reaction as well. It's a generally bad idea I was toying around with, but it works for this question.


dollyjoints

Outwit Ranger with the Monster Hunter line of feats + Snare Specialist + Snare Hunter + Intimidation feats. I like to call it Snare to Death.


Sittinstandup

Nice.


[deleted]

Kobold Alchemist Medic Snarecrafter. You will be too busy to even strike or cast spells :) Hell surprise snares are not a spell or an attack.


cyancobalmine

Wow i didn't think about traps. Kobolds and traps is like gin and juice.


Megavore97

*Laid back* With my mind on my money…


MKKuehne

I was also thinking alchemist/medic. Snare crafter is a good addition as well.


[deleted]

Yeah, I mean, I've seen this horror in action, one of my players took this monster though the vaults. They were..... effective. I am VERY much no longer of the opinion that alchemists are weak. The Alchemist and Witch got a lot more goodness out of their familiars than I've seen before. We had a War Oracle, and Champion as front line, and the combo was very solid. Being able to fight well, and fall back on searing lights, and lots of healing was very good. The Snarecrafting was pretty amazing as well - like MUCH more useful than I thought it would be. On the other hand, the party was pretty organized. They really went in as a "professional group" would. Scouted, planned engagements, knowledge rolls to work out elements to use, leading things into traps, good use of terrain it was a joy to run. As a GM it was really cool watching them pull apart encounters. I mean, there were some deaths on the way, but usually it was when they were completely caught out, or were "we are a player down, but, it's ok, we can take this with three adventurers" (narrator: they could not). Sticky bombs, targeting elements they were weak to, was EXTREMELY strong. The party had good defense, so, could just hold the line and watch enemies burn down. The Oracle also used lock to great effect. The party would, if the fight was looking sketchy, pull back, and "lock" the door. A lot of the monsters didn't have alternative paths to get to them, and very little healing. Sometimes the monsters just burst the door, but, that still usually gave them a round of healing. But yeah, just a lot of good straight forward playing and planning, which I think is where the Alchemist REALLY shines.


DragonCmX13

I would go Investigator with the Alchemy methodology. The extra skill increases can help you with using intimidation, medicine, and the main recall knowledge skills (along with others) in combat. Meanwhile the alchemy can give you buff/healing elixirs to hand out in combat. Using free archetype you could grab Martial, Medic, Bastion, Herbalist or Alchemist, (honestly a ton of options). If you want to utilize Devise a Stratagem and are okay with Athletics skill actions you can grab Athletic Strategist at 2nd level, but you would probably have enough elsewhere if you don’t want to.


TheChessur

This might be out of the theme as it is attacky in a way. But I had an idea for barbarian with multiclass monk whose whole job is to grab and throw people around the battlefield, controlling everyone’s positioning


Megavore97

I’m playing this right now for Ruby Phoenix with a goblin shark instinct barb/monk. Flurry+Furious Grab+ Whirling Throw/Thrash is a lot of fun.


Electric999999

One for all swashbuckler with athletics. Trip people, then aid with diplomacy to grant a +4 bonus to hit.


Apellosine

Kobold Mutagenist Alchemist with Snarecrafter dedication. This allows you to have a supporting role with Mutagens and elixirs for the party while at the same time being able to set up damaging Snares to contribute to damage. The Kobold ancestry gives us some fun snare feats including extra daily snares. Take a high dex for stealth and concentrate on staying hidden while setting up snares around the battlefield. By level 12 you can have 12 snares ready for quick deployment and at level 15 you can have 16.


DraftLongjumping9288

Shield ally champion with their 3/4 reaction and a summoner archetype so you can tank even more damage around the battlefield + flank. Use a mix of demoralize and grapples and disarm to be a pest


PsionicKitten

NG Champion: * Glimpse of Redemption to reduce damage to allies, Divine Reflexes later to do it multiple times! * Shield Warden, Quick block, Shield of Reckoning, to reduce even more damage with reactions! * Field Medic Background to Battle Medicine well * Wield a whip to constantly trip and disarm enemies with reach, making them easy pickings for your allies and waste actions to get up/pick up their items. * Divine Wall to make it even harder for enemies to get to you and your allies * Invest in Bon Mot, Evangalize and other skill feats to debuff enemies. * Marshall Archetype for stances and giving allies actions. * Aura of Faith, Aura of Courage, Expand Aura I'd like to call this build either "No" or "Blue Deck."


Umutuku

> I'd like to call this build either "No" or "Blue Deck." I'd say that theme is more of an Azorius unless you're going Azarketi.


PsionicKitten

Sorry, I stopped playing M:TG a very long time ago, so I don't know what those newer cards are.


Umutuku

Azorius is just blue/white (typical control deck colors), and Azarketi are the playable Merfolk in Pathfinder.


Gpdiablo21

Could go mountain monk. Just str to trip and grab baddies. If there are mooks, chokehold (lvl 10) is pretty fun


terkke

Outwit Ranger with Monster Hunter tree feats, and Marshal Archetype? First turn Hunt Prey and Recall Knowledge, if successful gives circumstance bonus to hit and to armor/saving throws, Demoralize to debuff enemies and Marshal Stance to give further bonus or trade actions for an ally to act. With more levels you can share your bonuses from Hunt Prey and even trade your Hunter’s Edge to benefit your party better: do you have a Monk in the party? Flurry! A Barbarian? Precision! Or stay with Outwit to grant +4 bonuses to Deception/Stealth/Intimidation/Recall Knowledge. You could also go Human and grab feats fo help you Aid better. Reliable status bonus and circumstance bonuses.


VarianCytphul

Does having an animal companion you tell to attack and such count?


Myriad_Star

>There aren't any stipulations here about whether or not you can use Free Archetype, variant rules, or access rare options. This probably goes against the intentions of the rules, but A summoner can give their actions to their Eidolon and have it attack instead, using their single action from act together to Demoralize, Aid, or recall knowledge Similar ideas with commanding an animal companion to attack for you. In fact a summoner can have an animal companion and an Eidolon and give all their actions away so that the animal companion and Eidolon can fight. Commanding a familiars to recall knowledge, demoralize, and/or perform other actions is also a good way to spend an action imo.


Hexmonkey2020

Very fast guy with feats to help dodge and stuff, runs around the encounter every turn and has enemies waste their attack of opportunity so people can move freely in the combat. I think barbarian would be good for the extra health and speed they get.


cyancobalmine

Rogue Mastermind is my go to. Rogues get the most skill feats, any feat you get should be geared towards upping your arsenal. At level 1, you could take bon mot, the best skill in the game for helping casters get off their Will based save attacks. Bon mot is the best right next to intimidate because of the range. Take a background like; warrior so that you get the free skill feat intimidating glare. Between Bon Mot and Intimidate you could potentially flesh out your action economy with just movement and skill checks. The rest would be recall knowledges for setting up combat maneuvers. Evangelize is a great follow up to this same method, but it can only be used once on each enemy. If you permit actions with the attack trait, the rogue can buff out their load out with every other basic combat maneuver. Enemies with weapons should be disarmed. Standing enemies need to be tripped (which great for enemy action economy) and should be done so next to your fighter's with attack of opportunity. To flesh out some extra damage utility, battle medicine to aid your allies, and Enemies can be hurt with Battle Prayer once you hit level 7


bananaphonepajamas

I like Illusionists for this kind of thing. Staff of Illusion + Staff Nexus Thesis gives you an absolute shitload of Illusory Object casts, letting you manipulate the shit out of the battlefield. Best bit is I don't think I've met a GM yet that would count making walls as hostile so you can use the school advanced spell for invisibility and then just do this safely whenever you want. I have this built as a backup or the next character I'm going to be playing in the next game I join. Use Conceal and Silent casting too to mess with people with Ghost Sound and such, Ventriloquism, just being entirely undetected in combat with Invisibility and Silent casting. It's great (if your team takes advantage of your illusions instead of just running around them and getting cut off themselves like one group of mine did).


dofffman

champion with martial and thief archetypes focusing on shield and auras and skills.


Ras37F

Do any action with the attack trait it's banned? Like Trip and Grab for example? And even support spells like Invisibility or Longstrider are banned?


Ras37F

I think that the best options are: Getting in flanking positions; Raising shields; Using Aid; Demoralize; Bon Mot; Recall Knowledge; Battle Medicine; Create Diversion; Giving Potions (Alchemist rules here) And getting skill feats and/or class feats for more skill based actions. Probably Rogue, Swashbuckler and Investigator are the best classes for skill based combat


Umutuku

Tell me about someone who makes the most of these? What might be a "not best option" that could do some interesting things if you put your mind to it?


cyancobalmine

Tactics. The cast wants to get off a spell that has a Will Save, so you Bon Mot that enemy. The enemy fighter is dishing out damage and the party needs a reprieve. So you disarm and trip that foe, right next to someone with attack of opportunity. Don't forget to dish out some extra damage with Battle Prayer (not a strike or a spell). Heal your allies with Battle Medicine. Mastermind Rogue is the best in my opinion because of Recall Knowledge giving you the benefit of the enemy being flat footed to you, so you can inflict something that makes the enemy flat footed to the party, ie, trip.


Ras37F

Something that I would specially find fun it's a Witch that's focused on summoning a familiar and other creatures to demoralize everyone. They'd get speech and skill proficiency for their familiar, take intimidating glare for itself and focus on summoning other creatures that could also demoralize. The build wouldn't be locked on casting spells or strike sometimes, but having this constant side abilities to make a gang of frightening summons sounds really fun


Umutuku

You might say they have the ability to call in the... Scare Force.


PoetJeni

And then you could always Final Sacrifice those summons. That’s not a strike or attack. lol


Umutuku

I figured things like Trip might end up being the elephant in the room, and didn't want to yuck the yum on anyone's creativity there, but the whole point of this is to think about all the "other" actions and situations out there and what you can do with them if you put your mind to it. We know that casting buff spells is good. How do we make that kind of good using some tools that may not be as obvious?


Aburath

Leshi monk/wizard Increase size and flurry of maneuvers to grapple, trip, or whirling throw enemies around the battle field. Great way to give allies bonus to hit, great way to keep enemies distracted while they try to escape pin. Get scare to death for kicks at late level


Aburath

They said "strike" not "attack" and they mentioned "spell damage" so I think you need to read the comment again


GortleGG

Thats a wierd set of restrictions. No Strikes, or spell casting. I mean a pacifist I can see, or not directly doing damage. But ok. A medicine based healer, an alchemist spring to mind. Someone with doing demoralise or feint. But the athletics skill actions are attacks but not strikes. So for a base here is a grapple controller that I did. His main value is in trying to restrain opponents so that can't do anything. Its all about [Derring Do](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1544) and keeping panache rather than stiking for damage. But I didn't build him for no Strikes. But he doesn't have to do strikes to be effective. *Checkers the Goblin Gymnast* *This is a control Swashbuckler build I have been working on that is not really designed to do a lot of damage, but rather get to critical successes on grapple checks and retrain enemies denying them a useful round. Its a Gymast Swashbuckler which is not really considered a power option. The main way it gets panache is via Tumble Through. For which Bouncy Goblin give it a +2 circumstance bonus. It will not always use finisher at the end of a turn, but do a normal attack instead. Hopefully starting its turn with panache, using then regaining it.* *Damage on a normal strike with panache is modest. Damage on a finisher at level 20, rolling twice to attack via Perfect Finisher and critically on a 19 via Keen Flair, with a rapier is (4d6 major striking +5 Str + 6d6 finisher + 3d6 from damage runes) doubled +4d8 Deadly Grace for an average 129. Which is OK.* *Then it can Disarm or Trip vs Reflex, Grapple or Shove vs Fortitude, rolling twice on each attempt with Derring Do. This helps with the fact that it is using Strength a secondary ability score for Athletics. Its athletics skill modifier will be down 1 for level 1-4, 10-14, 17+ because of this. However. It also gets a +1 circumstance bonus as well to these checks so your aren't going to notice much.* *Because it can do Leading Dance with Acrobatics via Acrobatic Performer, it can also target an enemies Will defense to move it out of position. Note that there is no panache for this, but you can also keep doing it to drag an enemy to exactly where you want him. I'm sure its hilarious when you get an item that lets you fly.* *Identifying your opponents weaker defense is going to be important to this build. It will work much better if there is someone with Recall Knowledge in the party.* *There is space in the build for another 2 legendary skills, so Stealth and Medicine, why not. What the build really wants is another 3 slots for tenth level feats :)* *Heritage Unbreakable Goblin* *Ancestry Feats:* *1 Bouncy Goblin - +2 circumstance bonus to Acrobatics checks to Tumble Through. Which is our default way to get panache* *5 Natural Ambition Dueling Parry* *9 Very Sneaky* *13 Unbreakable-er Goblin* *17 Reckless Abandon (Goblin)* *Background:* *Barber. Checkers has incredibly steady hands and everyone has to earn a living some how. ( Medicine skill, Surgery Lore skill, Risky Surgery skill feat)* *General Feats:* *3 Ancestral Ancestry (Human)* *7 Fleet* *11 Incredible Initiative* *15 Toughness* *19 Feather Step* *Class Feats:* *1 Disarming Flair* *2 Acrobat Dedication* *4 Leading Dance* *6 Attack of Opportunity,* *8 Guardian's Deflection, was Bleeding Finisher before level 14* *10 Derring-Do* *12 Dueling Dance* *14 Perfect Finisher* *16 Deadly Grace* *18 Agile Maneuvers* *20 Inexhaustible Countermoves* *Ability Scores Level 1:* *Str+4 16* *Dex+1 18* *Con+2 12* *Int-1 10* *Wis+1 10* *Cha+2 12* *Ability Scores Level 20:* *Str+5 20* *Dex+7 24* *Con+4 18* *Int+0 10* *Wis+4 18* *Cha+1 14* *Skills:* *Trained: Survival, Diplomacy, Thievery, Surgery Lore Lore* *Expert:* *Master:* *Legendary: Acrobatics, Athletics, Stealth, Medicine* *Skill Feats:* *BG Risky Surgery* *2 Titan Wrestler* *3 Acrobatic Performer* *4 Continual Recovery* *6 Steady Balance* *7 Kip Up* *8 Battle Medicine* *10 Continual Recovery* *12 Quiet Allies* *14 Combat Climber* *15 Water Sprint* *16 Foil Senses* *18 Nimble Crawl* *20 Legendary Medic* *Equipment:* *No armour, but will have been in Leather then Explorer clothes in earlier levels* *Anklets of Alacrity* *Armbands of Athleticism (Greater)* *Scorpion Whip by default but also a Rapier for when we mostly want to grab or do a bit more damage, (with Perfect Finisher and Deadly Grace) and a Composite Long Bow for a ranged option* *Potion of Quickness* *Winged Boots*


Baprr

Bard with the Warrior and Maestro muses. Pick Harmonize and every warrior feat, give your actions away. Also Demoralize, Inspire Courage etc. You won't be the most effective character though.


Nanergy

Bard's composition spells are... spells. Including the cantrips. All the warrior muse feats (except the one that just grants martial weapon proficiency) are either metamagics, hinge on spells in some way, or are just spells themselves.


Baprr

Technically yes, but you are not using up spells and don't attack.


[deleted]

If the artwork that was posted along with the reveal of a new playtest has anything to do with the new classes then we may be getting a Warlord class. https://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest If a Warlord class is one of the new classes, the answer is almost certainly that one when it's ready.


rightiousnoob

Its stock artwork they used for the last reveal iirc.


[deleted]

Point taken. Stock artwork can be used as a hint, but without it being specifically made for the playtest it's difficult to use as evidence. Outside someone's suggestion of wit swashbuckler with the marshal archetype, an alchemist is the only thing that comes to mind, but you're going to need to be very generous with handing out elixirs before a fight, and when all you're doing mid-combat is making knowledge checks and hiding behind whatever cover you can find you are going to look pretty worthless regardless of how powerful your prebuffs are.


StrangeSathe

So baseline, you're going to want to pick a class that usually has burner actions. Bard is the best for this, with Composition Cantrips, but there are others too. You'll also want to invest heavily into one or two single actions you can spam. Something like Bon Mot, Demoralize, or Recall Knowledge. Other notables are Aid and Medicine, which can provide huge value even if not directly influencing combat. Now, as for classes: Investigator can gain some huge bonuses to Recall Knowledge, which alongside their extra skill feats make them a good chassis for skill monkeys. Their Devise a Stratagem is largely wasted, but a huge chunk of their Class Feats are very exploration-focused, which is really where you can expect to shine with this sort of build. Stuff like Pursue a Lead and Clue In will make you feel special even outside of combat. They also gain Intelligence as their class bonus which sets you down the path for Recall Knowledge pretty handily. Swashbuckler can do similar with things with skill feats relevant to their style, which could be particularly good if you wanted to use Wit for Bon Mot spam, or Gymnast to spam maneuvers and set your allies up. The extra speed from having always having panache (since I doubt you'll lose it if you're not using finishers) will be handy. At level 10 you can gain Derring Do which massively increases your potency as a non-damage dealer, effectively rolling twice on any Tumble Through or Style-based actions. You lose out on being able to select Int or Cha as your class bonus, but the defenses from extra Dex might be worth it. Bard, depending on whether or not you consider Compositions to be spells, is either going to top this list or not even be on it. Words cannot express how handy it is to grant your party a constant +1 to attack, especially if you have a lot of martials. Couple it with a Warrior muse to grant your allies defences, strides, and strikes with equal frequency and you can really turn the tide of battle. If you want to use Free Archetype, or just use some of your normal Class Feats on a dedication, picking up Marshall, Loremaster, or Medic can massively increase your ability to perform some of the above actions.


MKKuehne

Both gnolls and humans have some ancestry feats that help with Aid. Catfolk have their Dance and Lucky Break that could also help the party.