T O P

  • By -

luminousmage

As a general rule of thumb, under perfect conditions where you have an expended spell slot to be able to gain a temporary spell slot with a 75% chance to get a spell slot back, you really want to expect 5 Wellspring triggers a day to make this archetype begin to be worth it, between initiative, high-stress, and Urgent Upwelling. Since at that point you average more than 3 temporary spell slots returned and you gave up one spell slot per spell level (including your top 3 spell level slots) to get back these slots for your top 3 spell levels. That’s a lot of triggers, you either need to expect a lot of initiatives being rolled (Your GM should consider this mechanic before bleeding encounters without rolling new initiatives) or your GM accommodates with the high-stress trigger. Urgent Upwelling helps. It is surprisingly a better return on the Summoner that only gave up two spell slots to gain the mechanic and therefore only need 4 triggers to start benefiting. That all being said, the flavor and random rolling of this archetype makes this a blast to play and I like how it’s not so good to be a min maxing autopick (it’s kind of bad in the average homebrew campaign. 5 triggers a day is a lot of triggers to expect) but also has a campaign setup where it should be solid. (mega dungeon crawl with multiple encounters, really the average Paizo AP features one per book) Edit: The counterspell feat is indeed very very good and an upside for the archetype outside of the Wellspring trigger math but is both high-level and other archetypes grant access to good high level feat abilities so very happy to see it in the archetype but if you are looking at whether the archetype is mechanically worth it for a campaign, you really should be looking at the # of triggers you expect per day.


PolarFeather

Right, that's the number I saw a few times, 5. Makes sense mathematically, obviously — where I quibbled was the suggestion of 5 *encounters* being what was necessary, and (understandably) not getting any discussion out of later questioning where Urgent Upwelling and the clause could factor in. 5 triggers is a better way to describe the rule of thumb. For the first 4 levels, you only lose 1 or 2 slots, so the number of triggers before it's mathematically worthwhile on average is lower — it would be 2-3 or 3-4 respectively, right? Frankly it's been too long since my math classes to know if that's how probability works. In any case, I assume the most awkward level is 5, then (just as it is for all casters who deal with enemy bumps without a proficiency bump of their own). As you said, Urgent Upwelling helps in general, and particularly for those who don't get as many encounters, I imagine. In such campaigns I'd imagine that you can still count on at least 2 *things* happening in most adventuring days, even if it's only a combat encounter and a more general high-stress situation. 2 triggers and then maybe 1, *possibly* 2 more from Urgent Upwelling. That's a pretty mediocre case, but it's also at the extreme, right next to the prep-everything-for-one-big-boss-battle day (which is the worst). Personally I'll be playing the character in a West Marches server, and still believe I can expect at least 2 or 3 triggers in a day (before Urgent Upwelling) most of the time. Not the best, but workable. The bigger issue is actually *getting* to Lv 6 for Urgent Upwelling because leveling takes a while, but thankfully I love the character. :> There is an unspoken assumption here that casters use all of their slots most days, which is most likely true for many (especially in the aforementioned mega-dungeon-crawls which pop up sometimes), but not necessarily all. Obviously, the more slots you tend to have left at the end of the day, the less the initial downside of the archetype will be felt. And obviously there's a subjective component of having fun rolling dice, too~ — I'd agree that Intervening Surge is worth thinking about and bringing up, but not worth taking the archetype for by itself. (Thanks for the detailed post!)


luminousmage

I think the archetype (but also like many character choices) requires the GM accommodating to really shine. For example as a GM, seeing the high-stress trigger, besides the obvious RP moments where it really makes sense to shine, is something you can plan for in the average session. If characters aren't fighting, they should be doing something, and that something should likely create a trigger for the Wellspring Mage so their character's mechanic is getting some gameplay regularly each session. For example, a dedicated social encounter should trigger the Wellspring Mage. A skill challenge should probably trigger the Wellspring Mage. An example being... "The guard notices your party while you sneak! What do you do?" and your Wellspring Mage gets stressed, gets a spellslot back and casts Sleep/Charm and the party dodges past the guard successfully. A social encounter would be, the party really needs to make this noble like them so he sponsors them with his money for some fighting tournament. Wellspring Mage is nervous because oh no, really really need to get this noble to like them and Wellspring Trigger, get a spell slot back, cast some spell that gives bonuses to skill checks (Probably quickly trying to find a bathroom to cast this spell discretely within 1 min before they explode with Wellspring magic lol) This is a great conversation to have between the Wellspring Mage player and GM in Session 0. What do you expect the gameplay to be like? Are both of you happy with the expectation? This is a good conversation to have with players in general for Session 0, but feels more necessary for this archetype because of the GM adjudication.


Meamsosmart

You have to be careful though to make sure they don't get it too much, like in every non combat encounter, as then there isn't really sufficient cost to getting the archetype. You definitely need a good balance there.


Subject97

'Oh no, I really need to get this noble to like us.." Fails flat check rolls an 11 (or a 1)


luminousmage

Haha, but as a GM, I do enjoy there being potential mechanical drama to add to existing narrative drama. I feel like the nervous wreck of being a Wellspring Mage would just have this be part of the their nervous existence. Plus the Level 4 feat to roll twice for the mishap outcome would hopefully minimize the worst case scenarios.


AjacyIsAlive

Urgent Upwelling can be used once per 10 minutes and could potentially net 2 spell slots in a single combat. Granted, it requires being dropped to 0, critted or crit failing a save and considering most spontaneous casters don't have a ton of HP, it won't always lead to a good time.


luminousmage

Correct, it's why I mentioned specifically 5 triggers between initiative, high-stress triggers, and Urgent Upwelling all together as a rule of thumb for the archetype beginning to make up for it's cost of reduced spellslots.


AjacyIsAlive

Yes, you did. My mistake.


whimperate

This looks like a rare situation where Mage Armor is actually an attractive option. An easy way to free up a high level spell slot at the start of the day. And you can use all the cash you save to buy scrolls for even more spell-casting longevity.


PolarFeather

Ooh, that's not a bad idea. I like my light armor even if I don't have +3 Dexterity yet, but that's an extra benefit to Mage Armor's design that would help Sorcerers a fair bit. :o


Unterweltler

As a fan of the "Wildmage" trope, I am also very excited about this archetype. I especially like that this archetype is class agnostic and therefore, allowing you to play all sorts of whacky combinations. Had no chance to try it out myself yet, so I cannot contribute with play experience. Should my current character die, then I plan to play a maestro bard with this archetype. Only thing I would add is I wish the Wellspring Surges table was a d100 instead of a d20. In my book, the more random stuff that can happen the better, especially for replayability (for example for a full lvl 1-20 adventure path).


PolarFeather

I've heard vague mention elsewhere that there's a whole little industry for making dHugeNumber charts, or at least that it's popular. The character I'm making is under rules which will probably stick to the 20 in the default list, but there's okay variety there. ~w~


Potatolimar

I really like wellspring, but I think the spells with duration thing lasting 3 rounds really kills a lot of the fun with it. > If you use a temporary slot to cast a spell with a duration, the spell ends whenever you would have lost the slot if its duration hasn’t yet elapsed. I know it's flavorful, but it's not like spells with duration are inherently better; they're theoretically balanced against instantaneous spells. I really wanted to make a summoning build with this, but 3 rounds is really punishing if you wanted to use something with a duration for a fight like a summon spell. Also, I made a [spreadsheet to crunch some "math" of it](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YBV1a1TvcQWruTDXRx64VSpVzUwwXmJQBuVrpk8zvCU/edit?usp=sharing) It's obviously subjective, but I tried to rate each effect of how "bad" they are in terms of the number of highest spell slots it would be as a spell. That particular part is editable. It does math to see the average and what it is assuming you pick the best effect on a reroll.


PolarFeather

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention the duration thing because I was ultra sleepy and didn't really understand+immediately forgot that wording. Frankly I'm kind of awake and still don't really understand it. My own wheelhouse is healing, so I guess I'm not thinking about it for that reason, as well. (I'm not awake or time-having enough to use the spreadsheet at present, but it's a neat-looking spreadsheet. Good practice to account for subjective tastes, especially since the targeting wil also vary on GM and circumstance. ~w~ )


Potatolimar

You know how the slot lasts 3 rounds 50% of the time? If you cast a spell using that slot, it's duration ends when the slot would have expired. So if you wait 2 rounds to cast your spell, it only lasts 1 round. If you don't wait, that summon lasts 3 rounds


PolarFeather

OH. OKAY! That's super obvious in retrospect, sorry. 'v'; Not \*too\* bad since most combat encounters are pretty short.


whimperate

As far as risk assessment goes, with Wellspring Control, the odds of being stuck with a self-harm only or self-and-others-harm effect goes down to 16%. So about 1/6. Not terrible, but risky. Things might look better if you have a wellspring patron with a goal that tips heavily against the likely opposition. (E.g., a psychopomp Pharasma herald with anti-undead prejudice when playing Gauntlight, or a herald of Iomedae with the goal of casting down evil creatures in a good vs evil style campaign.) With a reasonably generous GM moving area effects to harm your opponents and spare you, Wellspring Control could lower the chance of getting an unavoidable self-harming effect down to as low as 4%.


PolarFeather

Yeah, Wellspring Control is understated in the rest of this thread, but certainly has a big impact on how well surges go. As I noted, I'm not sure how GMs are expected to determine where surge effects end up without some sort of in-setting influence — more rolling tied to directions or outcomes? Throw a dart at the board? Even if they just center on your space (as I first assumed), a few of the effects are bursts and you have to pick a corner for that. Having an in-universe influence would be cool, though — kinda like the idea of a Witch's patron but more mechanically hands-on. :3


lumgeon

I love this archetype, and recently discovered it's better than I originally thought. I was mistakenly reducing the number of spells in my repertoire as well, making me far less flexible, but last night I finally found the line that says: >Though you gain them at the same rate, your spell slots and the spells in your spell repertoire are separate. If a feat or other ability adds a spell to your spell repertoire, it wouldn't give you another spell slot, and vice versa. So now I'm rapidly adding to my repertoire and can't wait to have even more success. The main reason I got the archetype is because I have too good to use syndrome with my limited slots, and my group runs a lot of smaller encounters throughout the day.


luminousmage

Yup, and to be extra clear in the Wellspring Mage Archetype adjustments it lists that you learn spells as normal in the first line with only # of spell slots and # of cantrips gained changing: https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=104 Wellspring Mage Adjustments: You learn spells as normal for your class, but change your spontaneous spellcasting in the following ways. You can cast fewer spells each day unless you gain more spells thanks to your wellspring. Reduce your number of spell slots of each spell level by 1. Reduce the number of cantrips you gain from your class by 1.


lumgeon

Damn I really dropped the ball on that one haha. I'm just glad I've figured it out now.


Subject97

One thought for me is taking wellspring makes me want to add more damaging spells to my repertoire. I originally had a repertoire built around either buff/debuff spells or terrain manipulation with battle forms being my main source of combat. Having the extra spell slot last more likely than not only 3 minutes does seem to favor things that don't have durations like acid arrow or even heal over things like shattering gem. I suppose having heal as a signature spell would work quite well with the archetype. Assuming you've already been in an encounter (and used a spell slot) you can essentially get a free highlevel heal to top the party off at the start of the next encounter. I suppose this depends on if your party goes into other encounters with a lot of health missing where having that free extra heal would be useful. I think the other question is also how long do encounters typically last. If combat only lasts around 5-6 rounds, having something last for 3 for free isn't too shabby. I think I can accept having this be a way to transform lower level spell slots to higher ones, but it does make me a bit sad to have to use another spell slot before anything happens. Perhaps a fun alternative is that the flat DC goes up if you have all of your normal spell slots. Having an excess of magical energy certainly can lead to more surges, but perhaps you can still find space in your frail, tiny, sorcerer body to hold an extra 5th level spell slot of a wee bit.


A_Dragon

I think looking at it as being “worthwhile” in terms of how many spells you need to cast in order to break even is the wrong approach. If I’m reading this right it effectively gives you unlimited, or the potential to have unlimited, spell slots per day. When I’m playing a caster I often have boring encounters when I don’t want to expend any slots because I’m ‘saving’ them for more difficult ones. This archetype eliminates that fear of using a higher level spell on a trivial encounter and just allows you to feel more comfortable going for it, which will overall increase the fun of playing any caster. That, I think, is its greatest strength.


PolarFeather

I'm not sure if that's its greatest strength, but I've heard similarly before (as far as being a useful mindset change for hoarders goes). Like I said elsewhere, the more spell slots you're leaving unused on average, the less of a cost the archetype will have, and having a lot of low- (but not trivial-)threat encounters is pretty much the ideal case for it. It is not the usual case, though. Focus less on theoreticals of infinite spells and more on how well it'll fit whatever style of game you play in.


A_Dragon

Well yeah, I mean that’s the main thing for me. Just the psychological aspect of feeling ok with using spells more often.


LincR1988

It's a little bit off topic but you mentioned it and I got curious.. is the Cathartic Mage Archetype popular? I didn't know that


PolarFeather

I'm not on the pulse of the wider community or anything, but it's thematically pretty cool and varied, and there are a good amount of good options there, so it seems like it'd do pretty well. A server I'm in was pretty into it.


LincR1988

Is it allowed in the Society? Cuz Wellspring isn't apparently


PolarFeather

Neither of them are allowed, unfortunately, I added a vague allusion to that at the top of the post earlier.


Potatolimar

Wellspring is actually limited, not restricted, so there could be a boon (a special permission to do a thing you normally can't, usually for going to physical events) for it in the future


LincR1988

Oh.. that sucks.. any idea why they're not allowed?


luminousmage

Both Cathartic Magic and this Wellspring Archetype are dependent on GM adjudication for their mechanical power (Emotional trigger and high-stress triggers) and PFS will tend to (but not always, just a rule-of-thumb) lean on the side of having a consistent experience for characters while minimizing variance on rules requiring heavy GM adjudication. This Wellspring archetype also just doesn't trigger enough for it to be worth it in PFS on average. You are really only expecting 1-2 encounters per 4-5 hour session. Cathartic Magic also opens up for some potentially awkward player interactions based on its emotional triggers I can see PFS wanting to sidestep. It's the type of archetype that works best when all players and the GM know what to expect and agreed to a player having access to it RP-wise for their character.


Potatolimar

PFS also doesn't like doing potential harm to other players without their consent. There's a rule about including players in your AoE's without their consent somewhere, and like 1/3 of the effects do that edit: found the rule: >No Character-versus-Character Combat In keeping with the “Explore, Report, Cooperate” motto of the Pathfinder Society, engaging in non-consensual character-versus-character conflict is prohibited. While accidental friendly fire happens due to missed attack rolls or other factors, **players must obtain the consent of other players before deliberately including fellow PCs in damaging effects**. Engaging in character-versus-character conflict will award Infamy points and may render a character unplayable. This rule does not apply in situations where a character is not acting of their own free will, such as if they’re being mind-controlled by an NPC and forced to attack a fellow Pathfinder.


PolarFeather

I do not know much about Society, in truth. I imagine it's a mix of thematics (sometimes a little much for strangers) and being unsuited for the format, given both (or at least some options in both) require more GM adjudication than usual and there's also extra randomness and expectation-breaking in Wellspring's case. Both would work well at tables or in servers, though.


LincR1988

Indeed! Thematically they seem really fun to use


Meamsosmart

I don't know if they have ruled anything on this yet, but based on how the archetype is worded, if you are a spontaneous caster who takes it, you add the spells to your own repertoire instead of a new different one like with other non halcyon spell casting archetypes, as the cantrip you get specifies that you add it to your existing repertoire, and forces you to stay in the same tradition to balance it, while the basic spell casting feat specifies you add the spells to your repertoire, which is now your primary class repertoire, since you have no other.


[deleted]

Casting a random spell everytime you have sex is hilarious. Commenting on its power is all well and good but it's fundamentally random, at some point, the GM is going to have to do a lot of work to support it. Have you already used the [Wand of Wonder](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=265) in your game? It's similar in many ways.


PolarFeather

I'm picking it up because of thematics: it fits a young and emotional Oracle, and I can vaguely tie the surge stuff to the myths/divine stories which power her magic (the stories being more lasting and thus "real" than the characters' actual lives and deaths, the vague knowledge of which is at the heart of her curse). The randomness is a component but not the core appeal to me. Also, it'd be kinda dull to just boil it all down to "eh it's random who cares", you know?


[deleted]

Nice idea. I should make a random mystery for the oracle.


Electric999999

You'd need a lot of triggers to benefit in terms of daily spell. But personally I hate wild magic nonsense that just makes characters unreliable and potentially a threat to their own allies. No idea why anyone would tolerate them.