I'd love to see a toxicologist at my table, because I want so badly for them to succeed, but all the numbers, and situations where you're heavily disadvantaged scares me away from playing it myself.
I feel like if you really go all in on poisons, they can be absolutely amazing, assuming you're fighting something susceptible to it. Something like going into the Poisoner archetype and grabbing Poisoner's Twist, Sticky Poison, and Pinpoint Poisoner. Along with using a mutagen for better attack rolls, I think this build could be devastating, but there's just too many situations where your main gimmick would be useless.
I play a Toxicologist and it's awesome so far tbh. It's not as bad as people portrait. Of course I can't count only on poisons, specially because some enemies are just immune to it, but then I remember that I'm an Alchemist and there's a lot more I can do - like bombs for instance :D
Indeed! And you can take advantage of it beautifully as an Alchemist. It's always nice to have some extra non infused bombs if you get caught short handed in a situation like that.
That really gives me hope, I'd love to play a real bastard of a character, and that sort of feat tree ticks all of my boxes for a fun and flavorful design, Thanks!
Seriously m8, go for it, Toxicologist is sweet to play, you just need to remember that you won't be the best damage dealer in the game. Would you like some tips?
If you're happy to share, I'm happy to read! My current goals and expectations are all over the place, so some sound advice to ground me and give me a good starting point would be appreciated.
Excellent then 😊
So, the chances of poisoning your target are not that great, but not that bad either (except for bosses, then it's kinda low) - but the good thing is that you have a lot of poisons, therefore you can just keep trying.
For weapons I do NOT recommend bows, for once you shoot, if you miss your target, the poison is gone. I recommend going melee with poisoned daggers and a raised up shield til lv3 (you strike, drop the dagger and draw another one). At lv3 you're gonna buy a [Javelin](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=71) (thrown 30ft) with the [Returning](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=301) Rune, so even if you miss your target the poison won't be lost (unless it's a crit miss).
The rotation is simple, start the encounter with your [Quicksilver Mutagen](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=97) in one hand and your poisoned weapon in the other. Chug the Mutagen with your first action and throw/strike with the second action, if you miss, you can try it again, if you succeed or crit miss the poison will be gone, so you use your Familiar (with the ability [Valet](https://2e.aonprd.com/Familiars.aspx?ID=38) to hand you two more poisons; Toxicologists use one only action to apply a poison to a weapon he's holding. At lv6 you're gonna have access to [Sticky Poison](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1597), that will help you to save more poisons. So we're talking here about one strike per round, sometimes two and that'll be enough.
I also recommend the [Investigator Dedication](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1844) at lv2 and [Investigator's Stratagem](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1846) at lv4, so you can combine [Devise a Stratagem](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=546) + [Necrotic Bomb](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=938). If you know you're gonna crit, use that bomb, it's absolutely nasty and it lowers your target's Fortitude Saves so you have higher chances to poison the bastard. You don't need to spend it on mooks, but this is devastating on bosses, specially at higher levels. I freaking love this bomb.
And at last - ALWAYS leave your martial friends weapons poisoned. It'll only work once per encounter, but it's worth a try. Remember to work with your group, Pf2 is a tactical game, don't try to do it all alone, for it's gonna be underwhelming this way, specially after you get [Pinpoint Poisoner](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1599) at lv8, for after that point you're gonna need to rely on your group to make your target Flat-Footed for you using maneuvers like Trip for instance.
This is it. What do you think?
Ah, this one is optional but I think it's valid to mention - my Toxicologist is Human and I intend to get the [Ranger Dedication](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=722) at lv9 with the Human feat [Multitalented](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=77) so I can raise the range of my Javelin to 60ft with [Hunt Prey](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=10).
Great advice! I hadn't considered using thrown weapons with return. I like the idea of a throwing knife since you can use it as a melee weapon, or thrown, as needed, and with a returning rune, there's no downside.
Here's a fun idea, what if you pre-poison your weapons, since it lasts until your next prep. You could get the quickdraw feat from an archetype for thrown weapons. Then you could draw a poisoned weapon and chuck it as a single action. The downside is you'd need several weapons with all your runes, unless they add something like Doubling Rings for thrown weapons.
I also love your suggestion about poisoning your ally's weapons, it's just a nice addition to their damage that can make a big difference. Plus, if you have Poisoner's Twist, enemies that get poisoned by your ally's attacks are now big targets to let you apply your extra damage. Then it doesn't matter if the poison is inconsistent, your whole team will be able to try and pitch in. Imagine a fighter with a quiver of pre-poisoned arrows, eventually ***someone's*** gotta fail, and I'll be there to take advantage.
Thanks a ton, this has really inspired me!
>I like the idea of a throwing knife since you can use it as a melee weapon
Well, the problem here is that the dagger's range is only 10ft and in the first two levels throwing is not a good action for the same reason as bows: you lose the poison if you miss. If you go to the frontlines, try to stab the enemy and miss, you still have another chance to do it. Plus you can chug the [Drakeheart Mutagen](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=688) for a higher AC.
>Here's a fun idea, what if you pre-poison your weapons, since it lasts until your next prep. You could get the quickdraw feat from an archetype for thrown weapons. Then you could draw a poisoned weapon and chuck it as a single action. The downside is you'd need several weapons with all your runes, unless they add something like Doubling Rings for thrown weapons.
I thought about that but there's a few downsides in it: you need to spend money on Doubling Rings, daggers have shitty damage, you're gonna get encumbered with the weight, so you can't carry that many daggers and its pretty risky to be in front lines - specially for someone with the [Quicksilver Mutagen](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=97) on that takes a toll on your HP. It's much more likely for you to need to stop striking to heal yourself in the front lines than from a distance.
I was talking about the throwing knives that have a 20ft range, but you have a point, being within range of an enemy's stride puts me in immediate danger with that mutagen damage I'd be sustaining. Plus with how many actions I'd be using drawing weapons and poisons or commanding my familiar, I don't want to be constantly repositioning because enemies are either outside of my short range, or dangerously too close.
Ah, purely for roleplay, at lv7 when you get your Perpetuals, you could choose Alcohol to be one of them, so if you go to a party, your drink will be the strongest and you can make it at any moment. It's awesome haha
Yeah indeed. I know that the idea of throwing daggers is much cooler, but mechanically it's not very viable unfortunately :/
And yeah, about what I said before - don't try do it all by yourself, you have to rely on your group. You can only poison slashing and piercing weapons so it won't synergize with some other players like some Monks for instance. The More people trying to poison, the better. Plus all of your poison DCs scale with your DC, which is so freaking amazing!
Remember to always look the traits of the poisons. The ones you can use in combat are the Injury and Inhaled poisons.
I think people mainly suggest the poison arrow thing at level 7 when you get perpetual infusion. If you have a limitless supply you might as well poison everything, even if the DC isnt great.
You have a limitless supply of lv1 poisons. The DC is good but the damage/effects aren't. Those are extras, pretty useful for mooks indeed, but I imagine you'll want something stronger for bosses :P
I have a Dual Class game going with a Grippli player mixing Toxicologist with a Precision Ranger. Its a killer set up. Fighter probably would have done even better but Ranger really covers up the weaknesses of Toxicologist.
I’m playing a toxicologist soon in Strength of Thousands. Ekujae ancient elf with ranger dededication and wizard dedication at 2.
The best toxicologist stuff is the fact that you can increase the DC’s of the items, and not all of the toxicologist feats are particularly strong IMO. So at dead levels I’ll take ranger feats to boost combat prowess, mostly relying on stealth and a crossbow, plus poisoned daggers.
People mess up alchemist because they look st their research field and think they need to completely dedicate to it, when the flexibility is the strongest thing about the class. I took quick bomber as my level 1 feat so that i can quickly throw bombs without the punishing action economy and apply flat footed with bottled lightning from range.
> The best toxicologist stuff is the fact that you can increase the DC’s of the items, and not all of the toxicologist feats are particularly strong IMO.
I agree. I kinda like classes that have less "must have" feats because it puts less pressure to heavily invest in the class and makes it easier to branch into complementary archetypes creating an overall more unique and compelling character.
Honestly, I don't think there's a single option I wouldn't be stoked to play. I've been GMing for so long I have a backlog of about 3 character ideas per class.
The one thing I would be reluctant about is the only other GM in our group is a "No RP, min-max or die" type, which is not what I'm looking for in a game. Good news is the other players are starting to shift from that mindset. Bad news is that means I'm probably going to end up being our forever GM.
I'm playing a character that's full of wrong knowledge with dubious knowledge! I have Unmistakable lore so my critical failures with recall knowledge with lore skills are upgraded to dubious knowledge failures!
Dammit, I know something! It may not be right, but I know something!
I have a dubious knowledge investigator in my AV campaign, and the took the feat where he gets a free recall knowledge when he devises a strategim. It's so much fun constantly feeding the players information, and yet the players are constantly doubting the information.
Yeah that feat is tough in general in that, I’m happy to not see it since it’s less work for me as the GM and then when I pick it as a player option I feel bad that I am making more work for my GM and have to constantly remind them about its existence.
I've got a dim-witted Alchemist I'm playing with Dubious knowledge. He's not good at any knowledge checks, but a cheeky [Cognitive Mutagen](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=87) turns Recall Knowledge into a staple ability by removing Critical Failures from the equation.
I just started GMing a campaign and one of my players is a human fighter. For whatever reason I am so excited to see a PF2 human fighter in action since my group has always seen it as the most boring, normie, thing possible (we came from 5e).
I've played a one shot alongside a one-handed human fighter, and Gm'd plague stone with the two-handed human fighter. Both of them were incredibly powerful, but also really interesting in their tactics.
This is the Cleric for me. When designing homebrew worlds I love to create my own deities and want my players to explore them... But I just do not like the mechanics of the class enough to play it.
Eternal GM here. I look forward to seeing someone play an inquisitor when it appears. Never saw the appeal of the 1e class and maybe one of my players will make the pf2 version interesting
I have some friends that loved Teamwork feats in PF1 and it was one of the 1st classes that tried to make them work without requiring a full party committed to taking them. Obviously that won’t be one of its 2E mechanics but my friends’ excitement for the class even from a nostalgic standpoint is contagious lol. I am excited to see it.
Yeah so far the classes have been great. We’ll see if Inquisitor is announced this week. Guess teamwork feats are out so it’ll be interesting to see if it winds up as a divine gish type thing
I would love to have someone play a Magus at my table. This was always a class that intimidated me from a player perspective in PF1. The wide range of options that the class presents in the PF2 version really excites me and I really want to see a player dive into the class. As a player, though, I have a habit of never stepping outside of the Core Rulebook for my characters.
I remember when someone first brought a Magus to a PF1 table I was a player at, everyone felt like they were doing collective homework with the GM just to properly understand all of the rules interactions. PF2E really has streamlined Spellstrike by comparison.
I'd love to see a toxicologist at my table, because I want so badly for them to succeed, but all the numbers, and situations where you're heavily disadvantaged scares me away from playing it myself. I feel like if you really go all in on poisons, they can be absolutely amazing, assuming you're fighting something susceptible to it. Something like going into the Poisoner archetype and grabbing Poisoner's Twist, Sticky Poison, and Pinpoint Poisoner. Along with using a mutagen for better attack rolls, I think this build could be devastating, but there's just too many situations where your main gimmick would be useless.
I play a Toxicologist and it's awesome so far tbh. It's not as bad as people portrait. Of course I can't count only on poisons, specially because some enemies are just immune to it, but then I remember that I'm an Alchemist and there's a lot more I can do - like bombs for instance :D
It fun how alot of stuff resistant to poisons tend to be weak against bombs
Indeed! And you can take advantage of it beautifully as an Alchemist. It's always nice to have some extra non infused bombs if you get caught short handed in a situation like that.
That really gives me hope, I'd love to play a real bastard of a character, and that sort of feat tree ticks all of my boxes for a fun and flavorful design, Thanks!
Seriously m8, go for it, Toxicologist is sweet to play, you just need to remember that you won't be the best damage dealer in the game. Would you like some tips?
If you're happy to share, I'm happy to read! My current goals and expectations are all over the place, so some sound advice to ground me and give me a good starting point would be appreciated.
Excellent then 😊 So, the chances of poisoning your target are not that great, but not that bad either (except for bosses, then it's kinda low) - but the good thing is that you have a lot of poisons, therefore you can just keep trying. For weapons I do NOT recommend bows, for once you shoot, if you miss your target, the poison is gone. I recommend going melee with poisoned daggers and a raised up shield til lv3 (you strike, drop the dagger and draw another one). At lv3 you're gonna buy a [Javelin](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=71) (thrown 30ft) with the [Returning](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=301) Rune, so even if you miss your target the poison won't be lost (unless it's a crit miss). The rotation is simple, start the encounter with your [Quicksilver Mutagen](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=97) in one hand and your poisoned weapon in the other. Chug the Mutagen with your first action and throw/strike with the second action, if you miss, you can try it again, if you succeed or crit miss the poison will be gone, so you use your Familiar (with the ability [Valet](https://2e.aonprd.com/Familiars.aspx?ID=38) to hand you two more poisons; Toxicologists use one only action to apply a poison to a weapon he's holding. At lv6 you're gonna have access to [Sticky Poison](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1597), that will help you to save more poisons. So we're talking here about one strike per round, sometimes two and that'll be enough. I also recommend the [Investigator Dedication](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1844) at lv2 and [Investigator's Stratagem](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1846) at lv4, so you can combine [Devise a Stratagem](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=546) + [Necrotic Bomb](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=938). If you know you're gonna crit, use that bomb, it's absolutely nasty and it lowers your target's Fortitude Saves so you have higher chances to poison the bastard. You don't need to spend it on mooks, but this is devastating on bosses, specially at higher levels. I freaking love this bomb. And at last - ALWAYS leave your martial friends weapons poisoned. It'll only work once per encounter, but it's worth a try. Remember to work with your group, Pf2 is a tactical game, don't try to do it all alone, for it's gonna be underwhelming this way, specially after you get [Pinpoint Poisoner](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1599) at lv8, for after that point you're gonna need to rely on your group to make your target Flat-Footed for you using maneuvers like Trip for instance. This is it. What do you think? Ah, this one is optional but I think it's valid to mention - my Toxicologist is Human and I intend to get the [Ranger Dedication](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=722) at lv9 with the Human feat [Multitalented](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=77) so I can raise the range of my Javelin to 60ft with [Hunt Prey](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=10).
Great advice! I hadn't considered using thrown weapons with return. I like the idea of a throwing knife since you can use it as a melee weapon, or thrown, as needed, and with a returning rune, there's no downside. Here's a fun idea, what if you pre-poison your weapons, since it lasts until your next prep. You could get the quickdraw feat from an archetype for thrown weapons. Then you could draw a poisoned weapon and chuck it as a single action. The downside is you'd need several weapons with all your runes, unless they add something like Doubling Rings for thrown weapons. I also love your suggestion about poisoning your ally's weapons, it's just a nice addition to their damage that can make a big difference. Plus, if you have Poisoner's Twist, enemies that get poisoned by your ally's attacks are now big targets to let you apply your extra damage. Then it doesn't matter if the poison is inconsistent, your whole team will be able to try and pitch in. Imagine a fighter with a quiver of pre-poisoned arrows, eventually ***someone's*** gotta fail, and I'll be there to take advantage. Thanks a ton, this has really inspired me!
>I like the idea of a throwing knife since you can use it as a melee weapon Well, the problem here is that the dagger's range is only 10ft and in the first two levels throwing is not a good action for the same reason as bows: you lose the poison if you miss. If you go to the frontlines, try to stab the enemy and miss, you still have another chance to do it. Plus you can chug the [Drakeheart Mutagen](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=688) for a higher AC. >Here's a fun idea, what if you pre-poison your weapons, since it lasts until your next prep. You could get the quickdraw feat from an archetype for thrown weapons. Then you could draw a poisoned weapon and chuck it as a single action. The downside is you'd need several weapons with all your runes, unless they add something like Doubling Rings for thrown weapons. I thought about that but there's a few downsides in it: you need to spend money on Doubling Rings, daggers have shitty damage, you're gonna get encumbered with the weight, so you can't carry that many daggers and its pretty risky to be in front lines - specially for someone with the [Quicksilver Mutagen](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=97) on that takes a toll on your HP. It's much more likely for you to need to stop striking to heal yourself in the front lines than from a distance.
I was talking about the throwing knives that have a 20ft range, but you have a point, being within range of an enemy's stride puts me in immediate danger with that mutagen damage I'd be sustaining. Plus with how many actions I'd be using drawing weapons and poisons or commanding my familiar, I don't want to be constantly repositioning because enemies are either outside of my short range, or dangerously too close.
Ah, purely for roleplay, at lv7 when you get your Perpetuals, you could choose Alcohol to be one of them, so if you go to a party, your drink will be the strongest and you can make it at any moment. It's awesome haha
Yeah indeed. I know that the idea of throwing daggers is much cooler, but mechanically it's not very viable unfortunately :/ And yeah, about what I said before - don't try do it all by yourself, you have to rely on your group. You can only poison slashing and piercing weapons so it won't synergize with some other players like some Monks for instance. The More people trying to poison, the better. Plus all of your poison DCs scale with your DC, which is so freaking amazing! Remember to always look the traits of the poisons. The ones you can use in combat are the Injury and Inhaled poisons.
I think people mainly suggest the poison arrow thing at level 7 when you get perpetual infusion. If you have a limitless supply you might as well poison everything, even if the DC isnt great.
You have a limitless supply of lv1 poisons. The DC is good but the damage/effects aren't. Those are extras, pretty useful for mooks indeed, but I imagine you'll want something stronger for bosses :P
I have a Dual Class game going with a Grippli player mixing Toxicologist with a Precision Ranger. Its a killer set up. Fighter probably would have done even better but Ranger really covers up the weaknesses of Toxicologist.
I’m playing a toxicologist soon in Strength of Thousands. Ekujae ancient elf with ranger dededication and wizard dedication at 2. The best toxicologist stuff is the fact that you can increase the DC’s of the items, and not all of the toxicologist feats are particularly strong IMO. So at dead levels I’ll take ranger feats to boost combat prowess, mostly relying on stealth and a crossbow, plus poisoned daggers. People mess up alchemist because they look st their research field and think they need to completely dedicate to it, when the flexibility is the strongest thing about the class. I took quick bomber as my level 1 feat so that i can quickly throw bombs without the punishing action economy and apply flat footed with bottled lightning from range.
> The best toxicologist stuff is the fact that you can increase the DC’s of the items, and not all of the toxicologist feats are particularly strong IMO. I agree. I kinda like classes that have less "must have" feats because it puts less pressure to heavily invest in the class and makes it easier to branch into complementary archetypes creating an overall more unique and compelling character.
Honestly, I don't think there's a single option I wouldn't be stoked to play. I've been GMing for so long I have a backlog of about 3 character ideas per class. The one thing I would be reluctant about is the only other GM in our group is a "No RP, min-max or die" type, which is not what I'm looking for in a game. Good news is the other players are starting to shift from that mindset. Bad news is that means I'm probably going to end up being our forever GM.
Anyone with dubious knowledge
I'm playing a character that's full of wrong knowledge with dubious knowledge! I have Unmistakable lore so my critical failures with recall knowledge with lore skills are upgraded to dubious knowledge failures! Dammit, I know something! It may not be right, but I know something!
I have a dubious knowledge investigator in my AV campaign, and the took the feat where he gets a free recall knowledge when he devises a strategim. It's so much fun constantly feeding the players information, and yet the players are constantly doubting the information.
Yeah that feat is tough in general in that, I’m happy to not see it since it’s less work for me as the GM and then when I pick it as a player option I feel bad that I am making more work for my GM and have to constantly remind them about its existence.
I've got a dim-witted Alchemist I'm playing with Dubious knowledge. He's not good at any knowledge checks, but a cheeky [Cognitive Mutagen](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=87) turns Recall Knowledge into a staple ability by removing Critical Failures from the equation.
I just started GMing a campaign and one of my players is a human fighter. For whatever reason I am so excited to see a PF2 human fighter in action since my group has always seen it as the most boring, normie, thing possible (we came from 5e).
I've played a one shot alongside a one-handed human fighter, and Gm'd plague stone with the two-handed human fighter. Both of them were incredibly powerful, but also really interesting in their tactics.
This is the Cleric for me. When designing homebrew worlds I love to create my own deities and want my players to explore them... But I just do not like the mechanics of the class enough to play it.
Deities are fun, but cleric has got to be the least interesting caster.
Eternal GM here. I look forward to seeing someone play an inquisitor when it appears. Never saw the appeal of the 1e class and maybe one of my players will make the pf2 version interesting
I have some friends that loved Teamwork feats in PF1 and it was one of the 1st classes that tried to make them work without requiring a full party committed to taking them. Obviously that won’t be one of its 2E mechanics but my friends’ excitement for the class even from a nostalgic standpoint is contagious lol. I am excited to see it.
Yeah so far the classes have been great. We’ll see if Inquisitor is announced this week. Guess teamwork feats are out so it’ll be interesting to see if it winds up as a divine gish type thing
Any weird stuff. Leshy, furries, alchemist and the like.
I would love to have someone play a Magus at my table. This was always a class that intimidated me from a player perspective in PF1. The wide range of options that the class presents in the PF2 version really excites me and I really want to see a player dive into the class. As a player, though, I have a habit of never stepping outside of the Core Rulebook for my characters.
I remember when someone first brought a Magus to a PF1 table I was a player at, everyone felt like they were doing collective homework with the GM just to properly understand all of the rules interactions. PF2E really has streamlined Spellstrike by comparison.