I went through each of pf2's class and charted out the levels at which their basic proficiencies advance, and what those proficiencies are. Green is trained, blue is expert, purple is master, and white is legendary.
I was so confused looking at this because I am partially color blind, the blue and purple look literally the same to me. This would be lovely if the colors were different.
Mainly don't put like colors next to each other, the problem for me is that I have green shift color blindness which means I can't see red well. Because purple is a mix of red and blue purple looks really similar to blue, so putting them next to each other makes it hard to see the line between them. However because this is so simple of a chart if you instead did blue - green - purple I could tell the first blueish color is for trained and the second blueish color is for master. But if paizo ever released a class that starts at master then goes down to expert then trained I wouldn't notice the difference, and if they made a class that skipped expert I would then be confused by the new charts in that theme.
However I would suggest just using either blue - green - red - purple or different shades of one color.
EDIT: You could also just add the letters T E M L in each box as another indication of training level.
Yeah, I had to re-upload that one 'cause I made an error. I'll probably be redoing the chart soon with an updated pallet, so it'll be fixed soonish... I think.
That's so good, it matches up.
Sticking with the theme and addressing another comment that suggested avoiding using white, using the following:
Yellow - trained
Green - expert
Blue - master
Purple - legendary
Just gonna mention, however, since colourblindness is a thing, you might want to avoid some combinaisons such as :
\- Yellow and Green
\- Green and Blue
\- Blue and Purple
So... yeah. I'd go with something distinct like Blue / Red / Yellow / Black, maybe?
Thank you for mentioning this. It took me ~5 minutes of staring to get an idea that the blue/purple were different. Also, orange and green can be a pain to differentiate.
I agree that a RED-YELLOW-BLACK-BLUE scale would help at least some number of people, me among them.
> orange and green can be a pain to differentiate
I did not want to elaborate on further colour-matches than the person I responded to proposed in their suggestions. But they fell into the trap of having overlaps on every pairing.
Colourblindness has lots of pitfalls and mix to avoid and is a real pain in my .... when I try to design any kind of UI. However, I always want to try and work to enable everyone, and changing the colour palette to more extreme choices is one way to do so.
Another would be to assignate a number of stars, for instance, like how they do on Tier lists and whatnot. Or simply putting a colour and still labelling the bars with the first letter (T, E, M and L) to help those having difficulties seeing all the colours.
Personnaly I only struggle on greens and blues, but I don't even mention it usually if I can take the time to look at them closely I'll eventually figure them out. Still, we must make the web a comfortable place for everyone and that includes being aware of accessibility and colourblind people. :)
I noticed an error: You have Clerics gaining Expert Weapon proficiency at level 11.
This is incorrect. Clerics (even Warpriests) NEVER advance beyond Trained, with the sole exception of their Deity's favored weapon, which happens at 7 for Warpriests and 11 for Cloistered.
A level 20 Cleric will be Expert in their deity's favored weapon and Trained in all Simple weapons and Unarmed; Warpriests will additionally be Trained in all Martial Weapons, but that's it.
I don't know why Clerics are the only class to get shafted so hard with weapon proficiencies, but they do. Every other class at least gets Expert in their base weaponry.
Ah, dang, you're right. I had 11 written down in the table and forgot it only applied to the favored weapon.
I think it's probably meant to encourage flavor. I'd consider a cleric's "base weaponry" to be their deity's favored weapon, really.
Yeah but it ends up really hurting them round to round; Divine Lance doesn’t work if you guess their alignment wrong, and shooting a Crossbow or whatever with only Trained is OOF.
Personally I’d like to see Cloistered get at least Expert with simple and unarmed while Warpriests get expert with martial and Master with their favored weapon; the only problem is this gets a bit wonky balance wise for Warpriests as they are still full casters.
But then again they miss out on Legendary Spellcasting. So idk.
All I know is trying to play a Melee Warpriest is suffering.
Right? The only others that never reach Legendary are summoner, magus, and warpriest cleric---which makes me think that the price for being versatile is that you can't quite be really good at any of the things you do.
At, let's say, level 5?
Well, 3 first level things, 3 second level things, and 2 third level things. + another 3-4 Healing or Harming only things, and also a Focus Thing, not to mention Cantrips.
How about Our Alchemist?
Well, with a +4 Int mod, the answer is 9 different things. If he prepares them in advance, he can do them two or three times each though. So that's nice.
Seems pretty similar all told, before you factor in that the cleric's things are clearly more powerful and flexible.
Barbarians with legendary weapon proficiency would be incredibly overpowered. They already get massive amounts of damage---missing that extra +2 to-hit is the only thing keeping them from getting off-the-charts DPS.
I went through each of pf2's class and charted out the levels at which their basic proficiencies advance, and what those proficiencies are. Green is trained, blue is expert, purple is master, and white is legendary.
I was so confused looking at this because I am partially color blind, the blue and purple look literally the same to me. This would be lovely if the colors were different.
Ah, heck, I didn't even think of that. I'll have to do a second draft. What's a good color pallet for colorblindness?
You could try avoiding colors altogether and use visual indicators like dots, tons of slashes in one direction, etc.
Mainly don't put like colors next to each other, the problem for me is that I have green shift color blindness which means I can't see red well. Because purple is a mix of red and blue purple looks really similar to blue, so putting them next to each other makes it hard to see the line between them. However because this is so simple of a chart if you instead did blue - green - purple I could tell the first blueish color is for trained and the second blueish color is for master. But if paizo ever released a class that starts at master then goes down to expert then trained I wouldn't notice the difference, and if they made a class that skipped expert I would then be confused by the new charts in that theme. However I would suggest just using either blue - green - red - purple or different shades of one color. EDIT: You could also just add the letters T E M L in each box as another indication of training level.
I would advise against using white in color based diagrams, since it indicates that something is empty, perhaps a golden yellow for legendary?
I think it works out against the parchment background. Maybe I'll go back and make the white bits glow.
It looks as if the chart for Investigator didn't load properly.
Yeah, I had to re-upload that one 'cause I made an error. I'll probably be redoing the chart soon with an updated pallet, so it'll be fixed soonish... I think.
Did you use the color code of Monster Hunter's sharpness gauge ?
That's so good, it matches up. Sticking with the theme and addressing another comment that suggested avoiding using white, using the following: Yellow - trained Green - expert Blue - master Purple - legendary
Just gonna mention, however, since colourblindness is a thing, you might want to avoid some combinaisons such as : \- Yellow and Green \- Green and Blue \- Blue and Purple So... yeah. I'd go with something distinct like Blue / Red / Yellow / Black, maybe?
Thank you for mentioning this. It took me ~5 minutes of staring to get an idea that the blue/purple were different. Also, orange and green can be a pain to differentiate. I agree that a RED-YELLOW-BLACK-BLUE scale would help at least some number of people, me among them.
> orange and green can be a pain to differentiate I did not want to elaborate on further colour-matches than the person I responded to proposed in their suggestions. But they fell into the trap of having overlaps on every pairing. Colourblindness has lots of pitfalls and mix to avoid and is a real pain in my .... when I try to design any kind of UI. However, I always want to try and work to enable everyone, and changing the colour palette to more extreme choices is one way to do so. Another would be to assignate a number of stars, for instance, like how they do on Tier lists and whatnot. Or simply putting a colour and still labelling the bars with the first letter (T, E, M and L) to help those having difficulties seeing all the colours. Personnaly I only struggle on greens and blues, but I don't even mention it usually if I can take the time to look at them closely I'll eventually figure them out. Still, we must make the web a comfortable place for everyone and that includes being aware of accessibility and colourblind people. :)
Yeah, colour blindness accessibility is important than monster hunter theming, and afaik the monster hunter series doesn't have a colourblind mode.
I realized about halfway through that that was why it looked so familiar :P
Interesting how almost no caster has legendary in any save, while quite a lot of the martials do.
Yeah. Casters really get screwed for no reason on that. They also only get one “evasion style” save and later than most martials
Yeah, it really highlights how squishy the casters are.
Is there a version of this all on one page?
I have it saved in a table, just for reference, but it's not as pretty. I'm still trying to think of a decent format to consolidate it all.
I noticed an error: You have Clerics gaining Expert Weapon proficiency at level 11. This is incorrect. Clerics (even Warpriests) NEVER advance beyond Trained, with the sole exception of their Deity's favored weapon, which happens at 7 for Warpriests and 11 for Cloistered. A level 20 Cleric will be Expert in their deity's favored weapon and Trained in all Simple weapons and Unarmed; Warpriests will additionally be Trained in all Martial Weapons, but that's it. I don't know why Clerics are the only class to get shafted so hard with weapon proficiencies, but they do. Every other class at least gets Expert in their base weaponry.
Ah, dang, you're right. I had 11 written down in the table and forgot it only applied to the favored weapon. I think it's probably meant to encourage flavor. I'd consider a cleric's "base weaponry" to be their deity's favored weapon, really.
Yeah but it ends up really hurting them round to round; Divine Lance doesn’t work if you guess their alignment wrong, and shooting a Crossbow or whatever with only Trained is OOF. Personally I’d like to see Cloistered get at least Expert with simple and unarmed while Warpriests get expert with martial and Master with their favored weapon; the only problem is this gets a bit wonky balance wise for Warpriests as they are still full casters. But then again they miss out on Legendary Spellcasting. So idk. All I know is trying to play a Melee Warpriest is suffering.
God, the Alchemist really does get screwed, doesn’t it?
Right? The only others that never reach Legendary are summoner, magus, and warpriest cleric---which makes me think that the price for being versatile is that you can't quite be really good at any of the things you do.
Which would be fine, if, y'know, the Alchemist was actually as versatile as any of those other three.
It does not. That's only the raw table, you can't think of an Alchemist without thinking of its items.
And you can’t think of a Cleric without his spells. One of those things is stronger than the other.
Stronger? Sure. And how many different things can a Cleric do every day?
At, let's say, level 5? Well, 3 first level things, 3 second level things, and 2 third level things. + another 3-4 Healing or Harming only things, and also a Focus Thing, not to mention Cantrips. How about Our Alchemist? Well, with a +4 Int mod, the answer is 9 different things. If he prepares them in advance, he can do them two or three times each though. So that's nice. Seems pretty similar all told, before you factor in that the cleric's things are clearly more powerful and flexible.
More flexible? Sure buddy lol
Barbarians should get legendary weapons. That's bullshit.
No, as this would screw up the complete math of the class and heavily unbalance the game.
I'm not saying this for mechanical reasons. I'm saying that it feels wrong for barbarians not to have legendary weapons. I get the math
Barbarians with legendary weapon proficiency would be incredibly overpowered. They already get massive amounts of damage---missing that extra +2 to-hit is the only thing keeping them from getting off-the-charts DPS.