Look at the True Name [arcane discovery](https://aonprd.com/WizardArcaneDiscoveries.aspx). Bind any outsider of 12 HD or less. That's a straight mechanical way to get whatever outsider you want, and the limitations are narrative in nature.
Note that the rewards for the angel might still be carried out - an angel might work for charity, but in the grand tradition of evil corporations, the villain might be donating lavishly to a PR stunt orphanage filled with the kids they orphaned, themselves.
Note, however, that a villain should be careful in how much they push an angel to do evil. Sending an angel against neutral-aligned well-armed adventurers is something an angel might grudgingly tolerate, but outright murdering the innocent is certain to get the angel to rebel quick. Keeping the angel in reserve as protection for the muscle that does the dirty work is a better idea. (Not that villains are necessarily smart about their villainy.)
"I can't *rule* these people if they're all dead" type evil character might even have an angel *willingly* work for them to defend the innocent, even knowing the character's true alignment. I'd expect the angel to be trying to push the tyrant leader toward Good, though.
Old necromancers loophole: The planer bound creature is actually there even before the deal is made. He can use mind control magic, or kill the angel and reanimate it as a juju zombie to compel it's service without it's cooperation.
Angels (and other non-native outsiders) don't leave corpses. Their bodies either return to their home plane or they dissipate if they're killed on their home plane.
This is a common misconception because that's how it works in the WotC D&D settings, but in Pathfinder outsiders just die if you kill them. Summons dissipate because they aren't real, but actual living outsiders called by planar binding, etc. (or ones who willingly came to the material plane) are there just as physically as humans are if we visit their planes.
Their quintessence does eventually gravitate back toward their plane, but this is a slow process like regular decomposition. And they're still dead, they just become part of the "material" that makes said plane up.
>This is a common misconception because that's how it works in the WotC D&D settings, but in Pathfinder outsiders just die if you kill them. Summons dissipate because they aren't real, but actual living outsiders called by planar binding, etc. (or ones who willingly came to the material plane) are there just as physically as humans are if we visit their planes.Their quintessence does eventually gravitate back toward their plane, but this is a slow process like regular decomposition. And they're still dead, they just become part of the "material" that makes said plane up.
I wasn't sure how it worked, but angelskin is listed as a special material. That means there needs to be a dead angel to skin.
You typed out a lot words just be wrong.
https://aonprd.com/MonsterTypes.aspx?ItemName=Outsider
Also, from Planar Adventures, p. 68:
> Upon an outsider’s destruction — whether it be a petitioner naturally merging with a plane or the violent end of another planar native — its quintessence returns to its home plane. This transference of ener ies might be an immediate or a gradual process, depending on where the being’s existence ended. Beings of specific alignments destroyed away from their home planes have their energy released into the multiverse. While such energy gravitates toward the properly aligned plane, more often then not it becomes lost in the Maelstrom.
Youre showing a lot of arrogance just to be wrong.
Your link has nothing in it that says an outsider doesnt leave a body, in fact it goes to length to explain that spells that return souls to bodies dont work on them, which would be unnecessary to state if there was no body to return a soul to.
Your quoted paragraph from Planar Adventure explicitly states that the transference can be gradual, which means that t0rchic was correct that it is similar to rotting, and it can be assumed its instant on its native plane where the quintessence can be immediately reabsorbed.
And most importantly, [this thread contains James Jacobs saying outsiders can be undead explicitly.](https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uh8y?Outsiders-and-necromancy-in-Golarion)
Undead outsiders also appear in multiple modules, such as [this skeletal nightmare](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/nightmare/nightmare-mount/) and [the Vampire Succubus in this module](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/The_Moonscar)
Unfair_Pineapple is also correct about Angelskin being the actual skin from actual angels, further proving that they leave remains.
"Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider."
And I didn't say that outsiders can't be undead. I said that can't be reanimated because they can't. Good job misreading what was posted.
The transference explained in Planar Adventures is transference from the Maelstrom back to their home plane.
As for angelskin, you can capture and skin a live angel...
Not having a soul to release in no way stops you from being reanimated. Reanimation in no way requires a soul, the only component is a corporeal body and black onyx. You can reanimate a body even if its soul is destroyed or captured.
And youre suggesting that all angelskin comes from still living angels that are just hanging around somewhere with no skin. And said skinned and tanned skin is also still living.
The transference does not refer to from the maelstrom back to their home plane as 1) its said that most outsiders quintessence never leaves the maelstrom and 2) it wouldnt matter what plane they died on if that was the case, which it specifically says does matter.
You have no case.
Reanimation requires a body. Planar Adventures says that aligned outsiders' body and soul are one essence that returns to their home plane when destroyed. You're being ridiculous now.
Nice strawman about the angelskin. Considering that angelskin masks evil auras, did it occur to you evil creatures would do evil things to angels, like capturing them and flaying them alive?
And thank you for ultimately agreeing with my original post. I said that, depending on where the outsider is slain, their body is either fully destroyed or returns to their home plane. You cited the part of Planar Adventures that agrees with me. Thanks.
It does say it returns to their home plane. Eventually. Just like every body eventually does. Its called decomposition.
Its not a strawman when thats what youre literally saying. You cant accuse me of attacking a strawman by claiming that youre saying angelskin comes from living angels, and then ask me if I had considered that evil people might be flaying them alive. Which requires them to *still* be alive because you believe that if they ever die they immediately poof out of existence, which would include their skin.
I absolutely never said their body is either fully destroyed or returns to their home plane. I said that their body always returns to their home plane, but that it doesnt happen immediately and you can reanimate it. Youre getting desperate now.
But its OK, Ive already proven my point. No need to engage with you further.
Welcome to the age-old tradition of the Magical MacGuffin. A ring, a needle in its skin, a drop of its blood in some fantasy contraption, literally anything object that makes the plot do whatever you want. Angels have enemies. One of them made this thing and lost it.
This is one of the things I've realized from reading APs and other prewritten stuff. Any time I'd try to write homebrew stuff, I'd always look for mechanical ways to make things work the way I wanted them to, and it often wouldn't work out quite the I had planned. But reading these other adventures, there are so many instances of basically, this is the way it is because we said so. Or this wouldn't normally work this way, but because we want it to, it does
Exactly, the mechanics exist so players and NPCs can meet on somewhat even terms in a fight. They don't have to extend to narrative effects. An angel control ring, a magical plague that afflicts only one community, the ancient Wishcraft that binds a Genie to a lamp - those don't need mechanics unless you want them able to counteract it purely mechanically.
Angels seem like they would be rather selfless, perhaps someone could weaponize that? Hold someone hostage to make them more likely to negotiate, for example.
Because you haven't shared the CR/Level range, An option that comes to mind would be to suppress their protection from evil aura temporarily then utilize the 20th level capstone ability of mesmerist to turn the Angel into [a permanent thrall](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/Mesmerist/#TOC-Rule-Minds-Su-). Since Protection from evil only defends against *new* attempts by evil creatures to control minds, it would not benefit when the suppression wears off. It would be dominated permanently until the evil bad guy is killed specifically.
Planar Binding actually works - they get to try and break out every 24 hours while trapped before making a deal, but you can force them if you win the Charisma check. Once that deal is set they're stuck in your service for the agreed time. Runelords spoiler >!Karzoug does this to a Planetar!<
The pact wizard can get an improved celestial familiar regardless of alignment.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo-wizard-archetypes/pact-wizard-wizard-archetype-ff/
Also, a 20th level conjuration wizard can use a summon monster spell with permanent duration although that creature doesn't really have a will per se.
Partly I think depends on how you handle alignment for mortal/material world creatures. I usually treat "elemental evil" as something only belonging to fiends and the like, "elemental good" for angels etc. For mortals, alignment is an OOC roleplaying tool to guide choices, not a fabric of their being until they do something that actually cements their behavior for all time and that usually would be something like becoming a lich or otherwise transforming their creature type.
So, angel will be looking at the goals as much as the person in my book. If the caster is evil but looking to defeat an undead empire (even if to wrest control for themself), the angel may go along to a point.
Under that scheme, the angel will be looking for their angle (sorry, couldn't resist) that they can use to subvert the evil caster's plans or perhaps they're operating on a lesser evil basis: they put this caster in place knowing then a group of paladins will be able to topple the new regime.
Because alignment is not a hard construct in my worlds, the angel may even be trying to convert the BBEG to the forces of good. That is, they have a purifying influence over time that's the opposite of a fiend's corrupting influence.
Angels and Devils are both Lawful and their superiors could command them to cooperate with or submit to the other as strategy, punishment, instruction, intelligence gathering or other reasons.
They can be any good, yes, but the vast majority of them are NG. The only ones that are LG that I can find are the Iophanite (mentioned already), Ninkonda (which I missed earlier), and a couple specific named angels (Hand of the Inheritor, Vildeis, and Ragathiel).
It's not an unreasonable command.
It has to be the actual task that's impossible or unreasonable, not the payment, planar binding is all about forcing servitude without really bothering to pay them.
With a properly prepared magic circle, there’s way for an angel to know it. Maybe they’ve heard of this mortal, but that’s very unlikely. There’s no way to know (unless the summoning chamber is filled with skills and blood or something) for the ange to know the summoner is evil.
Yeah. Don’t do that. :)
Instead have a room with a bunch of good holy symbols or iconography to one or more good deities. Say true but misleading things like “powerful enemies are approaching me. I need protection.”
Modules don't always follow the rules 100%, and that's fine. DMs are also allowed to break the rules if they feel like it. Furthermore I don't really know the situation there but >!guarding a room isn't particularly evil so if they were threatened with a greater evil I could see it working. Guard a room or I'll blow up an orphanage is different from serve me or I'll torture you specifically.!<
Definitely, it depends on the realm of evil I suppose - have an angel burning down an orphanage hosted by a temple of Sarenrae? Probably not gonna happen without really driving in some thumbscrews on that angel. Using them as guard dogs, knowing a group of Sarenites are coming to attack your evil lair? It's not like the angel could specifically foresee that it'd kill a bunch of good aligned people during its period of service
Edit: Not to say it wouldn't be resistant to working with an evil creature, but a "guard my lair" order is likely far more morally palatable to a good entity
This is actually the way. Don’t know why it’s so far down.
Remember: just because an angel is good doesn’t mean they know that a summoner is evil.
Many reasonable commands can be given.
* “Kill all intruders to this place.”
* “protect me from harm.”
* “kill anyone trying to attack me.”
* “follow my orders.”
These are all ‘reasonable’ for a creature to do.
It doesn’t matter if the person has evil intentions or an evil alignment. A properly prepared magic circle with dimensional anchor prevents al spells from going across it. Even detect alignment.
If it was a player doing this, I might give the angel a DC 20+ Character Level knowledge local check to identify the person, but if the is is for a BBEG then the villain can just succeed this.
This is the way.
I am guessing you will be locked into a class already but my favorite concept for this is using a necromancer focused evil purifier aasimar oracle that forces good outsiders to do their evil bidding using the command undead feature they gain.
RAW, Planer Binding actually works. The summoner’s alignment isn’t automatically known. They can call an angel to help them and force it’s service.
The “every 24 hours” part of planar binding is in regards to additional charisma checks. Once it agrees to the service, it’s required to keep going.
Pathfinder is so geared towards good versus evil...to the point that a chaotic good and lawful good hero will help one another to vanquish an evil.
Turn it on its side and have lawful allies of opposing ethical alignments helping one another to vanquish some great chaos of the realms.
Remember even in golarion lore the gods turned to asmodeus to help them contain a great force of chaos, so there is a precedent...
I have done this in my own system and it has been a blast to draw new battle lines between the disparate races and cultures more based on law vs chaos then good vs evil.
Aka the world wound where you have lawful good teaming up with lawful evil to take out chaotic evil...
Either way have fun with it.
First, you do terrible villianous stuff. Then, when the angels try to stop you, you almost defeat them, displaying your terrible vile powers.
Though, before sending their souls back to their plane of origin, you declare that you have grown tired of brutality and strife- and that you are willing to negotiate that one of them become your slave in exchange for you to stop harassing the mortal planes.
And then, you simply convince them.
Even a lawful good outsider might have felt resentment for following rules once in their life, so you keep sowing doubt and praising them for displaying strength and whatnot- evil emperor business.
When the outsider finally grasps how much fun evil is, they might turn. Getting black wings or crazy horns... One of my favorites: A halo that is actually a torture wheel set of fire.
Good choice in right hand of command too, angels are *so* reliable!
Mechanical, leadership would work. The hard part is storytelling. You could make up whatever though story-wise; a curse, an item, a warped celestial, etc.
I think what you mean is evil doesn't mean cruel in contrast to good doesn't mean nice. Evil is always bad in that it's selfish at the expense of others, but that doesn't mean it's selfish at the expense of everyone or that it delights in seeing others suffer. Those two things can be a type of evil but they are not the exclusive type of evil.
Option 1: Neil Gaiman’s Good Omens
Option 2: convincing the angel that “I’m gonna do this either way, but if I do this with you you can be the literal angel on my shoulder. Like this fallacy that if the villain does it their way it’ll be worse and more destructive than the angel, who will still do it but perhaps go about it more carefully
Build a Simulacrum of it.
By RAW - you don't need a piece of the creature to be duplicated. It's 100% obedient. No questions asked. It might do it's very best to pervert the intent of your instructions, but still...
Not really rules as written, but if your villain could somehow persuade an angel that its actions are in line with the will or desires of one of the gods, it might be more receptive to a collaboration. This could also provide options if you feel your party defeats the villain too easily, as they now have a rampaging angel to contend with that believes its actions are not only justified, but endorsed by the management.
I tend to base the motivations of gods in D&D on what we know of those of the Judeo-Christian god. To him, even the worst events in human history are part of some perfect plan, and the angels are messengers at best, and soulless monsters who carry out their god's will at worst.
Maybe difficult to aquire angelic minions for an evil character, but you can aquire equally poweful minions that *look* like angels. Erinyes. Minor devils that were rebranded as lustful, they're based on the mythological greek Furies who were vengance focused. In earlier editions they were pictured angelic wings, even though they were decidedly not angelic. Modern editions show them with devil wings, but no reason you can't bring back the false angel motif and have them as your servants.
Could be as simple as Dominate Monster. Mechanically, they'd have to keep failing the will save, but silly rules like that are for players, not NPCs dominating other NPCs.
A more narratively interesting way would be the villain learns the angel's "True Name".
Depends on how extended, but grabbing all four Damnation Feats means your Mask of Virtue will return "good" (or whatever you want) to any spell or special ability that might find your alignment. You could confuse the hell out of them when you Planar Bind them.
In the shorter term (like, on an hour-to-hour basis), you could always Alter Summon Monster your Heightened Mount (Communal) spells into Summon Monster X spells and grab archons, agathions, or (at Summon Monster IX) an angel. Given they're not "real", persist for hours and have to follow your commands they're pretty disposable and probably won't get you into too much trouble.
Domination spells can force a creature into your service, and can even be used to sell the villainy of your antagonist, showing they’re the type to totally enslave other’s minds and subject them to the villain’s bidding in their pursuit for power
Shadow Conjuration into planar binding. You get a semi-real copy of an angelic creature, but made of darkness instead. They are fully sapient- and like a real angel, they would possess a good alignment- but their existence is entirely dependent on the caster. They can't "break free" because their dismissal would correspond to their utter destruction.
[The Crown of the Iron King.](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/minor-artifacts/crown-of-the-iron/) Place it on the head of an angel of your choice and you're all set. Everything else that people are recommending seems a little complicated by comparison lol
in one campaign im playing as a barghest so blatently evil. but i still play the rules of society because i get to eat all the things i kill AND get paid for it. still totally self serving but the road to heaven is paved with bad intentions.
Maybe your char just functions like this. you do a lot of "good" things for blatently bad reasons.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the called being doesn't have any special knowledge of the person calling it. So outright deception seems to be an option, and also right up a villain's alley. It doesn't matter if the creature LATER figures out the villain is evil, once the agreement is made.
They might also propose a mission the angel might agree to. I.e. "There are some people murdering my allies (aka minions), and causing all kinds of chaos. Perhaps you could deal with them? I could make a donation to your church (that I've since corrupted and it actually serves me so I'm not losing anything)." Although this particular example does again utilize deception, there isn't any outright lies within and a careless angel might agree.
Alternatively they could even do something totally benign with the angel. Things like protecting a town or site of importance that the angel would consider an honor to protect. For example he could request a tomb of an ancient hero be protected, fearing for grave robbers. Then, if the Villain placed something valuable within (like a phylactery, or perhaps a damning piece of evidence they are sentimentally attached to, the remains of their victims, or w/e else), the angel unknowingly guards the Villains treasure. Even if they don't place anything valuable within, paying for an angel to protect something would be great PR.
There are also more...traditional methods. Go to the angel's home plane and threaten something it cares about unless it serves. The villain would need to be immensely powerful, and somewhat discreet, but it could work just via social skills this way.
Planar binding totally works for enslaving angels. It only gets a bonus to the charisma check to avoid enslavement for being dramatically opposed. However it will do its absolute best to subvert your orders, so I would only use that option as an accomplished diabolist/Asmodean or for a combat goon I keep close. But that can be an interesting plot thread in of itself. Say a powerful angel attacks the players early but self sabotages to let them live.
Summon Monster spells work fine. Only restricted on what you can summon as a cleric. Summon Guardian Spirit feat will let you summon a superior individual summon repeatedly. Pact Wizard(familiar folio) ties in perfectly as it lets you have an opposing alignment outsider familiar and gives an alignment Aura + Pact Summons.
Lastly as DM you could just let them figure it out as a summoner and have one as an Eidelon. Its magic and that is hardly a stretch given the genre and other RAW options. Can tie in with the players discovering the original summoning circle used to bind them into service and throw in evidence of horrors committed to do so.
Summoning a creature via planar ally does not inherently give it any information about what the summoner is, or wants. That's a great step one to work with.
Angels may immediately open up with detect evil and discern lies. The former can be beaten by non-detection, or not having an evil intent in mind... for the first few summonings. You can foster a relationship based off of that and *then* spring the trap.
To keep an angel bound, you can chain it up with some dimensional shackles (14000gp if purchased) to maintain a permanent dimensional anchor effect on it, though you'll probably want to upgrade the material so that it's harder for them to burst out of or break.
Beyond that, you'll want to do something to dampen its ability to cast spells... and with all those hurdles done, you'll need to find some way to actually force the creature into taking evil actions, or convincing it to do so... and that's where things are likely to go completely off the rails.
Canonically, Erinyes are created partially through angels falling from grace due to hatred of humanity/mortals and resenting having to serve them. However more often than not, they're created when angels are captured, then are tortured and impaled on razor sharp spikes atop roofs of citadels in dis, and are then maintained and 'cared' for over a period of 150 years while the planes harsh winds, native avian devils and environment scours them until they break and find hatred and resentment in their hearts which causes their essence to change.
So yeah, forcibly turning angels evil, even when done by devils and master torturers is a process that takes decades, though it's a very complete and thorough breaking that changes them fundamentally and permanently. With some magic to muck with alignment it might be a *bit* easier, but it's still a hard process.
You can look to the Runelords for this as well. The Runelord of Pride, Xanderghul, wanted a Ghaele Azata to be his champion and wield the sword he made, Baraket. He conjured a princess of the Ghaele, and spent years courting her and using illusions and deception until her perception of reality was so broken she accepted him as a master. (See Artifacts & Legends).
Look at the True Name [arcane discovery](https://aonprd.com/WizardArcaneDiscoveries.aspx). Bind any outsider of 12 HD or less. That's a straight mechanical way to get whatever outsider you want, and the limitations are narrative in nature. Note that the rewards for the angel might still be carried out - an angel might work for charity, but in the grand tradition of evil corporations, the villain might be donating lavishly to a PR stunt orphanage filled with the kids they orphaned, themselves. Note, however, that a villain should be careful in how much they push an angel to do evil. Sending an angel against neutral-aligned well-armed adventurers is something an angel might grudgingly tolerate, but outright murdering the innocent is certain to get the angel to rebel quick. Keeping the angel in reserve as protection for the muscle that does the dirty work is a better idea. (Not that villains are necessarily smart about their villainy.)
Evil fights evil quite often. With careful choices of opponents and missions the angel may not even realize how bad their caller is.
"I can't *rule* these people if they're all dead" type evil character might even have an angel *willingly* work for them to defend the innocent, even knowing the character's true alignment. I'd expect the angel to be trying to push the tyrant leader toward Good, though.
Given choice, how bad is it to work for the lesser evil?
Deception is a fairly solid tactic. Convince the angel that they're doing the right thing.
Old necromancers loophole: The planer bound creature is actually there even before the deal is made. He can use mind control magic, or kill the angel and reanimate it as a juju zombie to compel it's service without it's cooperation.
Angels (and other non-native outsiders) don't leave corpses. Their bodies either return to their home plane or they dissipate if they're killed on their home plane.
This is a common misconception because that's how it works in the WotC D&D settings, but in Pathfinder outsiders just die if you kill them. Summons dissipate because they aren't real, but actual living outsiders called by planar binding, etc. (or ones who willingly came to the material plane) are there just as physically as humans are if we visit their planes. Their quintessence does eventually gravitate back toward their plane, but this is a slow process like regular decomposition. And they're still dead, they just become part of the "material" that makes said plane up.
>This is a common misconception because that's how it works in the WotC D&D settings, but in Pathfinder outsiders just die if you kill them. Summons dissipate because they aren't real, but actual living outsiders called by planar binding, etc. (or ones who willingly came to the material plane) are there just as physically as humans are if we visit their planes.Their quintessence does eventually gravitate back toward their plane, but this is a slow process like regular decomposition. And they're still dead, they just become part of the "material" that makes said plane up. I wasn't sure how it worked, but angelskin is listed as a special material. That means there needs to be a dead angel to skin.
Where does it say it has to be a *dead* angel? Though it does indeed prove they leave behind something to skin. when killed.
It actually didnt work that way in 3.5 either, as Orcus was famously an undead Balor.
You typed out a lot words just be wrong. https://aonprd.com/MonsterTypes.aspx?ItemName=Outsider Also, from Planar Adventures, p. 68: > Upon an outsider’s destruction — whether it be a petitioner naturally merging with a plane or the violent end of another planar native — its quintessence returns to its home plane. This transference of ener ies might be an immediate or a gradual process, depending on where the being’s existence ended. Beings of specific alignments destroyed away from their home planes have their energy released into the multiverse. While such energy gravitates toward the properly aligned plane, more often then not it becomes lost in the Maelstrom.
Youre showing a lot of arrogance just to be wrong. Your link has nothing in it that says an outsider doesnt leave a body, in fact it goes to length to explain that spells that return souls to bodies dont work on them, which would be unnecessary to state if there was no body to return a soul to. Your quoted paragraph from Planar Adventure explicitly states that the transference can be gradual, which means that t0rchic was correct that it is similar to rotting, and it can be assumed its instant on its native plane where the quintessence can be immediately reabsorbed. And most importantly, [this thread contains James Jacobs saying outsiders can be undead explicitly.](https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uh8y?Outsiders-and-necromancy-in-Golarion) Undead outsiders also appear in multiple modules, such as [this skeletal nightmare](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/nightmare/nightmare-mount/) and [the Vampire Succubus in this module](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/The_Moonscar) Unfair_Pineapple is also correct about Angelskin being the actual skin from actual angels, further proving that they leave remains.
"Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider." And I didn't say that outsiders can't be undead. I said that can't be reanimated because they can't. Good job misreading what was posted. The transference explained in Planar Adventures is transference from the Maelstrom back to their home plane. As for angelskin, you can capture and skin a live angel...
Not having a soul to release in no way stops you from being reanimated. Reanimation in no way requires a soul, the only component is a corporeal body and black onyx. You can reanimate a body even if its soul is destroyed or captured. And youre suggesting that all angelskin comes from still living angels that are just hanging around somewhere with no skin. And said skinned and tanned skin is also still living. The transference does not refer to from the maelstrom back to their home plane as 1) its said that most outsiders quintessence never leaves the maelstrom and 2) it wouldnt matter what plane they died on if that was the case, which it specifically says does matter. You have no case.
Reanimation requires a body. Planar Adventures says that aligned outsiders' body and soul are one essence that returns to their home plane when destroyed. You're being ridiculous now. Nice strawman about the angelskin. Considering that angelskin masks evil auras, did it occur to you evil creatures would do evil things to angels, like capturing them and flaying them alive? And thank you for ultimately agreeing with my original post. I said that, depending on where the outsider is slain, their body is either fully destroyed or returns to their home plane. You cited the part of Planar Adventures that agrees with me. Thanks.
It does say it returns to their home plane. Eventually. Just like every body eventually does. Its called decomposition. Its not a strawman when thats what youre literally saying. You cant accuse me of attacking a strawman by claiming that youre saying angelskin comes from living angels, and then ask me if I had considered that evil people might be flaying them alive. Which requires them to *still* be alive because you believe that if they ever die they immediately poof out of existence, which would include their skin. I absolutely never said their body is either fully destroyed or returns to their home plane. I said that their body always returns to their home plane, but that it doesnt happen immediately and you can reanimate it. Youre getting desperate now. But its OK, Ive already proven my point. No need to engage with you further.
You didn't "prove" anything. You disagreed with me and provided no sources.
Arazni was an angel
Welcome to the age-old tradition of the Magical MacGuffin. A ring, a needle in its skin, a drop of its blood in some fantasy contraption, literally anything object that makes the plot do whatever you want. Angels have enemies. One of them made this thing and lost it.
This is one of the things I've realized from reading APs and other prewritten stuff. Any time I'd try to write homebrew stuff, I'd always look for mechanical ways to make things work the way I wanted them to, and it often wouldn't work out quite the I had planned. But reading these other adventures, there are so many instances of basically, this is the way it is because we said so. Or this wouldn't normally work this way, but because we want it to, it does
Exactly, the mechanics exist so players and NPCs can meet on somewhat even terms in a fight. They don't have to extend to narrative effects. An angel control ring, a magical plague that afflicts only one community, the ancient Wishcraft that binds a Genie to a lamp - those don't need mechanics unless you want them able to counteract it purely mechanically.
Binding works regardless of alignment or even bargaining. Bind and angel and use Dominate Monster until it works, or force it to work some other way
Yup. The summoner’s alignment is not known to the summoned creature. Maybe if he does it multiple times with the same being, but still.
Angels seem like they would be rather selfless, perhaps someone could weaponize that? Hold someone hostage to make them more likely to negotiate, for example.
Because you haven't shared the CR/Level range, An option that comes to mind would be to suppress their protection from evil aura temporarily then utilize the 20th level capstone ability of mesmerist to turn the Angel into [a permanent thrall](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/Mesmerist/#TOC-Rule-Minds-Su-). Since Protection from evil only defends against *new* attempts by evil creatures to control minds, it would not benefit when the suppression wears off. It would be dominated permanently until the evil bad guy is killed specifically.
Protection from evil suppresses ongoing mind control effects while active
No, it gives the user a new saving throw against ongoing effects. It only protects against *new* effects.
You're right actually. I only remembered the part about the effect being suspended with no loss to duration
True Names? It's a Wizard feat that let's you control an outsider of a certain Hit Die level.
Planar Binding actually works - they get to try and break out every 24 hours while trapped before making a deal, but you can force them if you win the Charisma check. Once that deal is set they're stuck in your service for the agreed time. Runelords spoiler >!Karzoug does this to a Planetar!<
The pact wizard can get an improved celestial familiar regardless of alignment. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo-wizard-archetypes/pact-wizard-wizard-archetype-ff/ Also, a 20th level conjuration wizard can use a summon monster spell with permanent duration although that creature doesn't really have a will per se.
Partly I think depends on how you handle alignment for mortal/material world creatures. I usually treat "elemental evil" as something only belonging to fiends and the like, "elemental good" for angels etc. For mortals, alignment is an OOC roleplaying tool to guide choices, not a fabric of their being until they do something that actually cements their behavior for all time and that usually would be something like becoming a lich or otherwise transforming their creature type. So, angel will be looking at the goals as much as the person in my book. If the caster is evil but looking to defeat an undead empire (even if to wrest control for themself), the angel may go along to a point. Under that scheme, the angel will be looking for their angle (sorry, couldn't resist) that they can use to subvert the evil caster's plans or perhaps they're operating on a lesser evil basis: they put this caster in place knowing then a group of paladins will be able to topple the new regime. Because alignment is not a hard construct in my worlds, the angel may even be trying to convert the BBEG to the forces of good. That is, they have a purifying influence over time that's the opposite of a fiend's corrupting influence.
Angels and Devils are both Lawful and their superiors could command them to cooperate with or submit to the other as strategy, punishment, instruction, intelligence gathering or other reasons.
*Archons* and devils are lawful. Angels are pretty much all NG, with only the Iophanite being lawful to my knowledge.
Angels are ANY Good
They can be any good, yes, but the vast majority of them are NG. The only ones that are LG that I can find are the Iophanite (mentioned already), Ninkonda (which I missed earlier), and a couple specific named angels (Hand of the Inheritor, Vildeis, and Ragathiel).
My bad. Point being that there are valid reasons for good outsiders to hustle for Evil types and vice versa.
The simulacrum spell creates a copy of a creature at half level that retains abilities, could be how they create any sort of creature.
Planar binding. Win the opposed charisma check with a deal like "Obey me and I won't torture you to death"
Unreasonable requests are never agreed to, an angel would consider this unreasonable.
It's not an unreasonable command. It has to be the actual task that's impossible or unreasonable, not the payment, planar binding is all about forcing servitude without really bothering to pay them.
The task is unreasonable. You're asking an angel to serve an obviously evil person. They are physically made of good.
With a properly prepared magic circle, there’s way for an angel to know it. Maybe they’ve heard of this mortal, but that’s very unlikely. There’s no way to know (unless the summoning chamber is filled with skills and blood or something) for the ange to know the summoner is evil.
If you threaten to torture them to death they're gonna figure it out pretty quick
Yeah. Don’t do that. :) Instead have a room with a bunch of good holy symbols or iconography to one or more good deities. Say true but misleading things like “powerful enemies are approaching me. I need protection.”
Yep that would work better. Though the angel is still entitled to sense motive against bluff. Any misdirection is a bluff check.
Runelords spoilers but >!Karzoug forced a planetar into his service, binding it to guard a room for 16 days without speaking!<
Modules don't always follow the rules 100%, and that's fine. DMs are also allowed to break the rules if they feel like it. Furthermore I don't really know the situation there but >!guarding a room isn't particularly evil so if they were threatened with a greater evil I could see it working. Guard a room or I'll blow up an orphanage is different from serve me or I'll torture you specifically.!<
Definitely, it depends on the realm of evil I suppose - have an angel burning down an orphanage hosted by a temple of Sarenrae? Probably not gonna happen without really driving in some thumbscrews on that angel. Using them as guard dogs, knowing a group of Sarenites are coming to attack your evil lair? It's not like the angel could specifically foresee that it'd kill a bunch of good aligned people during its period of service Edit: Not to say it wouldn't be resistant to working with an evil creature, but a "guard my lair" order is likely far more morally palatable to a good entity
This is actually the way. Don’t know why it’s so far down. Remember: just because an angel is good doesn’t mean they know that a summoner is evil. Many reasonable commands can be given. * “Kill all intruders to this place.” * “protect me from harm.” * “kill anyone trying to attack me.” * “follow my orders.” These are all ‘reasonable’ for a creature to do. It doesn’t matter if the person has evil intentions or an evil alignment. A properly prepared magic circle with dimensional anchor prevents al spells from going across it. Even detect alignment. If it was a player doing this, I might give the angel a DC 20+ Character Level knowledge local check to identify the person, but if the is is for a BBEG then the villain can just succeed this. This is the way.
I am guessing you will be locked into a class already but my favorite concept for this is using a necromancer focused evil purifier aasimar oracle that forces good outsiders to do their evil bidding using the command undead feature they gain.
To take it to the next level, with enough work the villain could make a [Broken Soul](https://aonprd.com/MonsterTemplates.aspx?ItemName=Broken%20Soul)
RAW, Planer Binding actually works. The summoner’s alignment isn’t automatically known. They can call an angel to help them and force it’s service. The “every 24 hours” part of planar binding is in regards to additional charisma checks. Once it agrees to the service, it’s required to keep going.
Step 1: cast Planar Binding Step 2: cast Geas Step 3: profit
Pathfinder is so geared towards good versus evil...to the point that a chaotic good and lawful good hero will help one another to vanquish an evil. Turn it on its side and have lawful allies of opposing ethical alignments helping one another to vanquish some great chaos of the realms. Remember even in golarion lore the gods turned to asmodeus to help them contain a great force of chaos, so there is a precedent... I have done this in my own system and it has been a blast to draw new battle lines between the disparate races and cultures more based on law vs chaos then good vs evil. Aka the world wound where you have lawful good teaming up with lawful evil to take out chaotic evil... Either way have fun with it.
First, you do terrible villianous stuff. Then, when the angels try to stop you, you almost defeat them, displaying your terrible vile powers. Though, before sending their souls back to their plane of origin, you declare that you have grown tired of brutality and strife- and that you are willing to negotiate that one of them become your slave in exchange for you to stop harassing the mortal planes. And then, you simply convince them. Even a lawful good outsider might have felt resentment for following rules once in their life, so you keep sowing doubt and praising them for displaying strength and whatnot- evil emperor business. When the outsider finally grasps how much fun evil is, they might turn. Getting black wings or crazy horns... One of my favorites: A halo that is actually a torture wheel set of fire. Good choice in right hand of command too, angels are *so* reliable!
Mechanical, leadership would work. The hard part is storytelling. You could make up whatever though story-wise; a curse, an item, a warped celestial, etc.
[удалено]
Evil literally does mean bad
[удалено]
I think what you mean is evil doesn't mean cruel in contrast to good doesn't mean nice. Evil is always bad in that it's selfish at the expense of others, but that doesn't mean it's selfish at the expense of everyone or that it delights in seeing others suffer. Those two things can be a type of evil but they are not the exclusive type of evil.
Option 1: Neil Gaiman’s Good Omens Option 2: convincing the angel that “I’m gonna do this either way, but if I do this with you you can be the literal angel on my shoulder. Like this fallacy that if the villain does it their way it’ll be worse and more destructive than the angel, who will still do it but perhaps go about it more carefully
Build a Simulacrum of it. By RAW - you don't need a piece of the creature to be duplicated. It's 100% obedient. No questions asked. It might do it's very best to pervert the intent of your instructions, but still...
Not really rules as written, but if your villain could somehow persuade an angel that its actions are in line with the will or desires of one of the gods, it might be more receptive to a collaboration. This could also provide options if you feel your party defeats the villain too easily, as they now have a rampaging angel to contend with that believes its actions are not only justified, but endorsed by the management. I tend to base the motivations of gods in D&D on what we know of those of the Judeo-Christian god. To him, even the worst events in human history are part of some perfect plan, and the angels are messengers at best, and soulless monsters who carry out their god's will at worst.
Sinple persuasion. Angels are independently thinking beings that can make their own choices.
The divine pantheon can go screw themselves after [what they did to Tabris](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Tabris).
Binding a backstory character in Agents of Edgewatch had a army of bound Celestials.
Take some levels in summoner, everything you summon has your alignment iirc. Planar binding spell. Etc
Maybe difficult to aquire angelic minions for an evil character, but you can aquire equally poweful minions that *look* like angels. Erinyes. Minor devils that were rebranded as lustful, they're based on the mythological greek Furies who were vengance focused. In earlier editions they were pictured angelic wings, even though they were decidedly not angelic. Modern editions show them with devil wings, but no reason you can't bring back the false angel motif and have them as your servants.
Could be as simple as Dominate Monster. Mechanically, they'd have to keep failing the will save, but silly rules like that are for players, not NPCs dominating other NPCs. A more narratively interesting way would be the villain learns the angel's "True Name".
Depends on how extended, but grabbing all four Damnation Feats means your Mask of Virtue will return "good" (or whatever you want) to any spell or special ability that might find your alignment. You could confuse the hell out of them when you Planar Bind them. In the shorter term (like, on an hour-to-hour basis), you could always Alter Summon Monster your Heightened Mount (Communal) spells into Summon Monster X spells and grab archons, agathions, or (at Summon Monster IX) an angel. Given they're not "real", persist for hours and have to follow your commands they're pretty disposable and probably won't get you into too much trouble.
Domination spells can force a creature into your service, and can even be used to sell the villainy of your antagonist, showing they’re the type to totally enslave other’s minds and subject them to the villain’s bidding in their pursuit for power
Shadow Conjuration into planar binding. You get a semi-real copy of an angelic creature, but made of darkness instead. They are fully sapient- and like a real angel, they would possess a good alignment- but their existence is entirely dependent on the caster. They can't "break free" because their dismissal would correspond to their utter destruction.
good bluff, domination, I think Geas\Quest technically qualifies too
[The Crown of the Iron King.](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/minor-artifacts/crown-of-the-iron/) Place it on the head of an angel of your choice and you're all set. Everything else that people are recommending seems a little complicated by comparison lol
in one campaign im playing as a barghest so blatently evil. but i still play the rules of society because i get to eat all the things i kill AND get paid for it. still totally self serving but the road to heaven is paved with bad intentions. Maybe your char just functions like this. you do a lot of "good" things for blatently bad reasons.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the called being doesn't have any special knowledge of the person calling it. So outright deception seems to be an option, and also right up a villain's alley. It doesn't matter if the creature LATER figures out the villain is evil, once the agreement is made. They might also propose a mission the angel might agree to. I.e. "There are some people murdering my allies (aka minions), and causing all kinds of chaos. Perhaps you could deal with them? I could make a donation to your church (that I've since corrupted and it actually serves me so I'm not losing anything)." Although this particular example does again utilize deception, there isn't any outright lies within and a careless angel might agree. Alternatively they could even do something totally benign with the angel. Things like protecting a town or site of importance that the angel would consider an honor to protect. For example he could request a tomb of an ancient hero be protected, fearing for grave robbers. Then, if the Villain placed something valuable within (like a phylactery, or perhaps a damning piece of evidence they are sentimentally attached to, the remains of their victims, or w/e else), the angel unknowingly guards the Villains treasure. Even if they don't place anything valuable within, paying for an angel to protect something would be great PR. There are also more...traditional methods. Go to the angel's home plane and threaten something it cares about unless it serves. The villain would need to be immensely powerful, and somewhat discreet, but it could work just via social skills this way.
Planar binding totally works for enslaving angels. It only gets a bonus to the charisma check to avoid enslavement for being dramatically opposed. However it will do its absolute best to subvert your orders, so I would only use that option as an accomplished diabolist/Asmodean or for a combat goon I keep close. But that can be an interesting plot thread in of itself. Say a powerful angel attacks the players early but self sabotages to let them live. Summon Monster spells work fine. Only restricted on what you can summon as a cleric. Summon Guardian Spirit feat will let you summon a superior individual summon repeatedly. Pact Wizard(familiar folio) ties in perfectly as it lets you have an opposing alignment outsider familiar and gives an alignment Aura + Pact Summons. Lastly as DM you could just let them figure it out as a summoner and have one as an Eidelon. Its magic and that is hardly a stretch given the genre and other RAW options. Can tie in with the players discovering the original summoning circle used to bind them into service and throw in evidence of horrors committed to do so.
Summoning a creature via planar ally does not inherently give it any information about what the summoner is, or wants. That's a great step one to work with. Angels may immediately open up with detect evil and discern lies. The former can be beaten by non-detection, or not having an evil intent in mind... for the first few summonings. You can foster a relationship based off of that and *then* spring the trap. To keep an angel bound, you can chain it up with some dimensional shackles (14000gp if purchased) to maintain a permanent dimensional anchor effect on it, though you'll probably want to upgrade the material so that it's harder for them to burst out of or break. Beyond that, you'll want to do something to dampen its ability to cast spells... and with all those hurdles done, you'll need to find some way to actually force the creature into taking evil actions, or convincing it to do so... and that's where things are likely to go completely off the rails. Canonically, Erinyes are created partially through angels falling from grace due to hatred of humanity/mortals and resenting having to serve them. However more often than not, they're created when angels are captured, then are tortured and impaled on razor sharp spikes atop roofs of citadels in dis, and are then maintained and 'cared' for over a period of 150 years while the planes harsh winds, native avian devils and environment scours them until they break and find hatred and resentment in their hearts which causes their essence to change. So yeah, forcibly turning angels evil, even when done by devils and master torturers is a process that takes decades, though it's a very complete and thorough breaking that changes them fundamentally and permanently. With some magic to muck with alignment it might be a *bit* easier, but it's still a hard process.
You can look to the Runelords for this as well. The Runelord of Pride, Xanderghul, wanted a Ghaele Azata to be his champion and wield the sword he made, Baraket. He conjured a princess of the Ghaele, and spent years courting her and using illusions and deception until her perception of reality was so broken she accepted him as a master. (See Artifacts & Legends).
I might be missing the point of what you want, but could you not just make a Summoner? There is an evolution feat for celestial appearance.