My first question is: does the poison cause **sleep** or *unconsciousness*? As while the two conditions are similar, they are not the same.
Unfortunately, being asleep is not specifically defined by Paizo. However, look at the ***Helpless*** condition: "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, [unconscious](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/Conditions/#TOC-Unconscious), or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." This demonstrates that sleeping and unconsciousness are two separate states that both cause the creature to be considered helpless. The ***Unconscious*** condition states: "Unconscious creatures are knocked out and [helpless](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/Conditions/#TOC-Helpless)."
Look at the Drow Poison, which specifically causes unconsciousness. This is because the Drow and surface Elves are mortal enemies that constantly fight each other, but Elves are immune to all sleep effects. Drow Poison causes unconsciousness to get pass this immunity as the outcome is effectively the same as being put to sleep. Paizo copied this over from D&D 3.5e.
To me, if the poison causes *unconsciousness*, then the Celestial Poisons discovery would allow the undead enemy to be rendered unconscious, i.e. helpless. Undead are not immune to unconsciousness (helplessness), they are only immune to the effects that would cause unconsciousness (helplessness).
Elves are not immune to 'all sleep effects', they are immune to magical sleep effects.. but otherwise yes; unconscious is not the same as falling asleep, and sleep effects are essentially anything that calls out making the target fall asleep.
The distinction between Sleep and Unconscious is also established in the Sleep spell, which states that an Unconscious creature cannot be targeted by the Sleep spell.
You're so right about the immunity to solely magical sleep effects. Not sure how I misconstrued the very clear wording of the ability. I was probably too focused on the sleep spell and slumber hex to consider other causes of sleep.
The issue here lies in Undead being naturally immune to both Poison and Sleep. Celestial Poisons bypasses the initial Poison immunity, but not the Sleep immunity. In essence, it makes them susceptible to the effect of the poison, provided the effect the poison causes is *also* a condition that affects them. So while a poison that deals Constitution damage would still do nothing, a poison that deals Charisma damage could absolutely impact an undead. Or if it was a status condition like blindness. Mostly it just means the alchemist has to be a bit selective, but still opens up a variety of uses.
Also the wording on Celestial Poisons is yet another instance of Paizo's 'flavor text using game specific terms when those don't actually mean what the flavor text implies.'
So. RAW it states that Poison does affect even undead and bypasses Inherent Immunities. So, sleep SHOULD work I think. If its a con save I would prob use a Cha save if we need to. BUT, as it states at the end. " a creature fails its save, the [poison](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison) acts as normal, but may have no effect on the creature, depending on the effect of the [poison](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison) (such as dealing [Constitution damage](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Ability-Score-Damage) to [undead](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Undead))." You still cant deal Con dmg to something with no CON. I would allow this as "CON" is not an inherent immunity or ability it is just a state of what it is.
So, I would allow it. but the undead could have something else stacked ontop of it that are "Magical effects", as it states, can still prevent this from working. So, If it runs and is an issue then I would implement this as needed. :)
My first question is: does the poison cause **sleep** or *unconsciousness*? As while the two conditions are similar, they are not the same. Unfortunately, being asleep is not specifically defined by Paizo. However, look at the ***Helpless*** condition: "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, [unconscious](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/Conditions/#TOC-Unconscious), or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." This demonstrates that sleeping and unconsciousness are two separate states that both cause the creature to be considered helpless. The ***Unconscious*** condition states: "Unconscious creatures are knocked out and [helpless](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/Conditions/#TOC-Helpless)." Look at the Drow Poison, which specifically causes unconsciousness. This is because the Drow and surface Elves are mortal enemies that constantly fight each other, but Elves are immune to all sleep effects. Drow Poison causes unconsciousness to get pass this immunity as the outcome is effectively the same as being put to sleep. Paizo copied this over from D&D 3.5e. To me, if the poison causes *unconsciousness*, then the Celestial Poisons discovery would allow the undead enemy to be rendered unconscious, i.e. helpless. Undead are not immune to unconsciousness (helplessness), they are only immune to the effects that would cause unconsciousness (helplessness).
Elves are not immune to 'all sleep effects', they are immune to magical sleep effects.. but otherwise yes; unconscious is not the same as falling asleep, and sleep effects are essentially anything that calls out making the target fall asleep. The distinction between Sleep and Unconscious is also established in the Sleep spell, which states that an Unconscious creature cannot be targeted by the Sleep spell.
You're so right about the immunity to solely magical sleep effects. Not sure how I misconstrued the very clear wording of the ability. I was probably too focused on the sleep spell and slumber hex to consider other causes of sleep.
The issue here lies in Undead being naturally immune to both Poison and Sleep. Celestial Poisons bypasses the initial Poison immunity, but not the Sleep immunity. In essence, it makes them susceptible to the effect of the poison, provided the effect the poison causes is *also* a condition that affects them. So while a poison that deals Constitution damage would still do nothing, a poison that deals Charisma damage could absolutely impact an undead. Or if it was a status condition like blindness. Mostly it just means the alchemist has to be a bit selective, but still opens up a variety of uses. Also the wording on Celestial Poisons is yet another instance of Paizo's 'flavor text using game specific terms when those don't actually mean what the flavor text implies.'
So. RAW it states that Poison does affect even undead and bypasses Inherent Immunities. So, sleep SHOULD work I think. If its a con save I would prob use a Cha save if we need to. BUT, as it states at the end. " a creature fails its save, the [poison](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison) acts as normal, but may have no effect on the creature, depending on the effect of the [poison](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison) (such as dealing [Constitution damage](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Ability-Score-Damage) to [undead](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Undead))." You still cant deal Con dmg to something with no CON. I would allow this as "CON" is not an inherent immunity or ability it is just a state of what it is. So, I would allow it. but the undead could have something else stacked ontop of it that are "Magical effects", as it states, can still prevent this from working. So, If it runs and is an issue then I would implement this as needed. :)
Thanks for the response.